Emotional Labor - Men/Women

[daymare]

I spent several hours today reading a very interesting (and long) thread from MetaFilter about emotional labor - https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0UUYL6kaNeBTDBRbkJkeUtabEk/view

Emotional labor is all the work (often unnoticed/unappreciated and falling to women) of keeping social calendars, family/friend connections, remembering events in other people's lives, keeping track of what needs to be done/cleaned/restocked/planned.  I'm finding all of this really interesting and was curious if others had any thoughts, or possibly stories from their own life.

I asked my husband to read the thread (or part of it), and I'm curious to hear what he thinks.  I'm obsessed with equality (it's one of the most important things for me in a relationship), and so while some of the behavior described (like husbands expecting their wives to keep track of birthdays/events of husband's family members, and to make all the plans with the husband's family) I've never dealt with because I would never tolerate it, some things I could definitely relate to.

[Silverado]

I skimmed a portion of the document. There's a lot there!

In general, I get confused when I see anyone, man or women or child, expending energy on really piddly shit. Getting stressed because tomorrow is Bob's birthday or Sally's anniversary and they didn't get a card is just bizarre.

I find it curious that in my experience women seem to get more wrapped up about things like birthdays and such. How in the heck did this difference get started? Maybe I need to read more of that thread.

One small anecdote from 20 years ago. A friend of mine was getting married. I had recently moved out of state. I did not get an invite. My take: he knew it would be a pain for me to travel back for a wedding, that was nice of him. Girlfriend's take: that is terrible that he slighted you like that, you must really be mad. Wow, those reactions are a world apart.

[freeedom]

I have a simple solution for this... everything goes in the calendar. If my SO wants me to go to something, send me a gCal invite. Easy.

[onlykelsey]

This is a thing, for sure.  it's something I undervalued or didn't think about when I decided to marry my husband, and it drives me up a wall.

I think part of it is that, as the female half of the couple, friends and family members and colleagues of his assume that my husband's failure to remember their birthday/send a gift/write a condolence card is somehow my responsibility.  Wedding planning really drove that home.  I got angry emails from his family members about not feeling adequately accommodated, as if I had singlehandedly planned a wedding for myself, and husband had no role in it.

I don't know what the solution is, but I think it has at least two parts:
1. cut out bullshit obligations and let people know you love them and care about them in other ways, and
2. share the burden.  DH wrote 40 of our 45 thank you cards for the wedding, and any role like that that he can pick up is good for us, I think.

[deborah]

I have often wondered if men have more tolerance for things not being done, and if so, it is just that the person with the least tolerance tends to be the one who ends up doing things.

[maizefolk]

deborah, that's the thought that occurred to me as well. Obviously not for all the examples in that thread (some are clearly the result of sexism, and others of folks who are just bad boyfriends husbands), but for at least some of it, it seemed  a lot like how is one roommate is more tolerant of mess than the other, either the neater roommate ends up doing all the cleaning and feeling put upon or resentful or the less neat one always feels put upon and resentful for having to clean when, to them, it doesn't seem messy to start with.

Unrelated. Daymare, did you put that whole PDF together by hand or do you have some awesome discussion thread summarizing and indexing software?

[daymare]

In general, I get confused when I see anyone, man or women or child, expending energy on really piddly shit. Getting stressed because tomorrow is Bob's birthday or Sally's anniversary and they didn't get a card is just bizarre.

I find it curious that in my experience women seem to get more wrapped up about things like birthdays and such. How in the heck did this difference get started? Maybe I need to read more of that thread.

I'm not one who makes a big deal out of birthdays or anniversaries (including my own), but I think some folks in that conversation made some great points about how a lot of those actions that recognize events of others are symbolic representations of caring and making an effort.  For instance, if you make it a point to text a friend on their birthday, possibly a couple special holidays, etc, it's probably more likely that you two will communicate at other points in the year as well.  So in some ways, noting someone's anniversary or birthday and sending a card is increasing the number of contact points and helps keep a relationship going.

This is a thing, for sure.  it's something I undervalued or didn't think about when I decided to marry my husband, and it drives me up a wall.

I think part of it is that, as the female half of the couple, friends and family members and colleagues of his assume that my husband's failure to remember their birthday/send a gift/write a condolence card is somehow my responsibility.  Wedding planning really drove that home.  I got angry emails from his family members about not feeling adequately accommodated, as if I had singlehandedly planned a wedding for myself, and husband had no role in it.

Ugh, that sounds miserable.  I have so little patience for the 'traditional' approach of women becoming the head of the couple's social calendar, or being expected to take that on by family/friends .... nope.  I'm not even sure if anyone resents me for not taking on that role, because I have decided to give zero fucks.

I have often wondered if men have more tolerance for things not being done, and if so, it is just that the person with the least tolerance tends to be the one who ends up doing things.

This gets tricky because so much of how women behave is due to how we've been socialized, and what's been praised.  I have this conversation a lot with my husband who insists that the reason I take on certain duties is because I just happen to be more organized, not due to anything pernicious and sexist.  But like, I don't really care if I'm more organized, I think that everyone regardless of their natural propensity should be able to handle basic scheduling like doctor's appointments, etc.  And that if you can't do it in your head, there are plenty of systems you can set up, calendar alerts, etc.  Not to mention, I'm sure a big part of me being 'organized' is that it was a quality considered valuable, and I probably developed it over time.

I so think the fact that society tend to judge the female half of a couple for any shortcomings on house organization/presentation, general communication with family, etc, means that objectively women will have less tolerance since they're getting negative reaction.

Unrelated. Daymare, did you put that whole PDF together by hand or do you have some awesome discussion thread summarizing and indexing software?

Can't claim any credit - someone shared the link to the PDF with me, I'm just passing it along.

Really enjoying the discussion thus far!

[nonsequitur]

I found that MetaFilter thread fascinating and profoundly insightful.  It gave me a new vocabulary.  I now see emotional labor as having real, significant value, and I make a conscious effort to recognize such effort when I see it.  In my own relationship, it's another thing to add to the list of ways that each of us are contributing to the household. 

[okits]

Emotional labor is all the work (often unnoticed/unappreciated and falling to women) of keeping social calendars, family/friend connections, remembering events in other people's lives, keeping track of what needs to be done/cleaned/restocked/planned.  I'm finding all of this really interesting and was curious if others had any thoughts, or possibly stories from their own life.

I cope with this by trying to give (as close as possible) zero fucks about other people's expectations of me as The Wife, and not taking things on all by myself simply because they are "wife jobs".  So it's not only "my fault" if the apartment isn't clean enough for visitors, and I don't try to keep on top of DH's family and friends' stuff (however he was acknowledging birthdays, etc. before he met me is still good enough now.)

I've also had to accept that equal partnership means the way DH does things (even if sub-optimal) is fine if it gets the job reasonably done.  His clothing choices for DD are as legitimate as mine (even if I'm internally mortified at some of the mismatched outfits he puts her in.  As long as it's clean and weather-appropriate, I shut up.)

To be fair, I partnered with someone who is far from oblivious to much of this stuff.  I do wonder, sometimes, if he ever notices "hey, we never run out of X/have Y problem".  I do notice the things I never have to do and gratitude for that eliminates most resentment over "wife jobs".  I do think younger generations place less importance on some of these things, so I'm also letting go as I realize other people don't do certain things or don't seem to really care.

[Cressida]

I might regret this decision, but: posting to follow.

[deborah]

I have often wondered if men have more tolerance for things not being done, and if so, it is just that the person with the least tolerance tends to be the one who ends up doing things.

This gets tricky because so much of how women behave is due to how we've been socialized, and what's been praised.  I have this conversation a lot with my husband who insists that the reason I take on certain duties is because I just happen to be more organized, not due to anything pernicious and sexist.  But like, I don't really care if I'm more organized, I think that everyone regardless of their natural propensity should be able to handle basic scheduling like doctor's appointments, etc.  And that if you can't do it in your head, there are plenty of systems you can set up, calendar alerts, etc.  Not to mention, I'm sure a big part of me being 'organized' is that it was a quality considered valuable, and I probably developed it over time.

I so think the fact that society tend to judge the female half of a couple for any shortcomings on house organization/presentation, general communication with family, etc, means that objectively women will have less tolerance since they're getting negative reaction.

I'm retired now, but when I worked as a manager, I made sure that things got done by the people who were supposed to be doing them by developing a tolerance for them not being done immediately. This translated well back to home, and I found that the more tolerant I became, the more likely we made a decision together who would do something, rather than it generally being done by the gender specific person.

Yes, people tended to blame me if things weren't done, but we have a good working relationship because of it, and nobody else needs to be privy to who does what.

[big_owl]

Because men don't care about all that stuff.  I don't know a single one of my male friends' birth dates and none of them know mine.  We don't say happy birthday, send each other cards, we don't give a shit.  We certainly don't so anything for any special holidays or even acknowledge those either.  Any events just morph into existence when they need to.  We don't need a planning commission to get that stuff together. 

My male relatives couldn't care less about birthdays/holidays or social events either.  If it was just my dad and I, we probably wouldn't acknowledge them at all.  I don't even know my mom's birthdate other than it's in late February.  I have to ask my dad every year.  I don't know his anniversary date and he doesn't know mine, we don't care.  My mom is always the one interested in that stuff. 

My sister pops out kids faster than a rabbit.  Every other day I swear there's a birthday.  The only way my wife and I can keep track of them is via my outlook calendar.  I hate it but it's something I gotta do because my mom/sister would get all bent out of shape if I didn't acknowledge them.  My dad, myself, and my sister's husband....they wouldn't give a shit either way.  My wife wouldn't care either, but again it would upset the females in the family.  I did just realize during this post that I also don't know my sister's anniversary date.  Don't care...they don't do anything about ours either so no bad feelings.

[justajane]

I don't understand having to acknowledge family wedding anniversaries. Every year like clockwork, we receive a card and a check on our anniversary from all three sets of parents. While I appreciate it, I think it's entirely unnecessary. This hasn't led me to return the gesture, and I know it bothers my mom. I have confronted the issue head-on several times and expressed to my mother that I think anniversaries are for the couple alone. She has countered with arguments like, "Well, if we hadn't gotten married, you wouldn't have been born...." Etc. Etc. But I thought that's what Mother's and Father's day were for?? I know she doesn't understand my perspective, but I struggle enough with getting all the emotional labor of birthdays completed. I am not adding anniversaries on there. But every year, I see random cards from random people wishing them a happy anniversary. WTF?

My husband is in charge of birthdays for his side of the family, which means that many, many birthdays don't get acknowledged. Not my problem! Though I know they probably blame it on me, I don't care.

As the stay at home parent, it's hard to divorce the increased emotional labor load that I carry with the fact that I am indeed the one with the more time to do it. I also feel the weight of home maintenance and noticing things around the house that are wrong. I am usually the one with eyes to see when there is a new crack or a new water stain. What is more, when I notice these things, I carry the weight of those realities around with me more than my husband, in large part because the house is my entire life almost. He goes to work for 40 hours a week (plus commute time). Plus this is de facto my "job".

In this sense, I'm not willing to separate this issue by gender, since I think the defining factor in our relationship is the fact that I stay home. I am not, however, ruling out cultural conditioning and that this discrepancy would still exist even if we both worked.

[smalllife]

Shared calendars are the best thing ever - neither one of us has to remember other than remembering to put it in.  I don't care about birthdays but my husband does, so he does all of that for the nephews and such. 

I come from a long line of "unfeminine" and not-really-suited-for-motherhood types, so I never got indoctrinated with a lot of female social programming. 

(posting mostly to follow, although like the poster several above I may regret that decision)

[Louisville]

In general, I get confused when I see anyone, man or women or child, expending energy on really piddly shit. Getting stressed because tomorrow is Bob's birthday or Sally's anniversary and they didn't get a card is just bizarre.

I find it curious that in my experience women seem to get more wrapped up about things like birthdays and such. How in the heck did this difference get started? Maybe I need to read more of that thread.

I'm not one who makes a big deal out of birthdays or anniversaries (including my own), but I think some folks in that conversation made some great points about how a lot of those actions that recognize events of others are symbolic representations of caring and making an effort.  For instance, if you make it a point to text a friend on their birthday, possibly a couple special holidays, etc, it's probably more likely that you two will communicate at other points in the year as well.  So in some ways, noting someone's anniversary or birthday and sending a card is increasing the number of contact points and helps keep a relationship going.

This is a thing, for sure.  it's something I undervalued or didn't think about when I decided to marry my husband, and it drives me up a wall.

I think part of it is that, as the female half of the couple, friends and family members and colleagues of his assume that my husband's failure to remember their birthday/send a gift/write a condolence card is somehow my responsibility.  Wedding planning really drove that home.  I got angry emails from his family members about not feeling adequately accommodated, as if I had singlehandedly planned a wedding for myself, and husband had no role in it.

Ugh, that sounds miserable.  I have so little patience for the 'traditional' approach of women becoming the head of the couple's social calendar, or being expected to take that on by family/friends .... nope.  I'm not even sure if anyone resents me for not taking on that role, because I have decided to give zero fucks.

I have often wondered if men have more tolerance for things not being done, and if so, it is just that the person with the least tolerance tends to be the one who ends up doing things.

This gets tricky because so much of how women behave is due to how we've been socialized, and what's been praised.  I have this conversation a lot with my husband who insists that the reason I take on certain duties is because I just happen to be more organized, not due to anything pernicious and sexist.  But like, I don't really care if I'm more organized, I think that everyone regardless of their natural propensity should be able to handle basic scheduling like doctor's appointments, etc.  And that if you can't do it in your head, there are plenty of systems you can set up, calendar alerts, etc.  Not to mention, I'm sure a big part of me being 'organized' is that it was a quality considered valuable, and I probably developed it over time.

I so think the fact that society tend to judge the female half of a couple for any shortcomings on house organization/presentation, general communication with family, etc, means that objectively women will have less tolerance since they're getting negative reaction.

Unrelated. Daymare, did you put that whole PDF together by hand or do you have some awesome discussion thread summarizing and indexing software?

Can't claim any credit - someone shared the link to the PDF with me, I'm just passing it along.

Really enjoying the discussion thus far!

Note bolded.

Men don't need to "keep a relationship going". When I call one of my brothers or old friends, it doesn't matter if I talked to them yesterday or two years ago. We relate to each other as if it were yesterday. Also, we express love to others by doing real helping things, not symbolic things. Help me hang drywall, not send me a birthday card. Give me advice on this mutual fund, not come to my baby shower. It's much more satisfying for us. Men express love working side by side, women express love working face to face.
This is a gross generalization, and YMMV. I don't think that either the generalized female way of relating or the generalized male way of relating is better than the other, but it's important to understand and appreciate the difference. Maybe meet somewhere in the middle.

[onlykelsey]

This is a gross generalization, and YMMV. I don't think that either the generalized female way of relating or the generalized male way of relating is better than the other, but it's important to understand and appreciate the difference. Maybe meet somewhere in the middle.

I think it's important to note that while many women may actually relate to each other that way, all of us seem to be expected to. 

I did fine in life by reframing expectations in relationships, but as soon as I got married, I had another entire family which expected me to be the caring, birthday remembering, passive, card-sending woman I'm not.

[Louisville]

This is a gross generalization, and YMMV. I don't think that either the generalized female way of relating or the generalized male way of relating is better than the other, but it's important to understand and appreciate the difference. Maybe meet somewhere in the middle.

I think it's important to note that while many women may actually relate to each other that way, all of us seem to be expected to. 

I did fine in life by reframing expectations in relationships, but as soon as I got married, I had another entire family which expected me to be the caring, birthday remembering, passive, card-sending woman I'm not.

I see this, too. Men, too, place this expectation on you, not because they particularly appreciate the behaviors, but because that's just what they're accustomed to women doing.

[ncornilsen]

Does it ever get exhausting thinking of new ways to feel slighted and persecuted?  If I ever felt the need to keep tabs on 'emotional labor' I'd leave the damned relationship or off myself.

[justajane]

Does it ever get exhausting thinking of new ways to feel slighted and persecuted?  If I ever felt the need to keep tabs on 'emotional labor' I'd leave the damned relationship or off myself.

Does it ever get exhausting to resort to hyperbole or mischaracterization when making your arguments?

[deborah]

During the time I managed people, some of them had a day off for their birthday. The only people who did this were MEN. I cannot believe that birthdays are not important to them.

[onlykelsey]

I see this, too. Men, too, place this expectation on you, not because they particularly appreciate the behaviors, but because that's just what they're accustomed to women doing.

Yeah.  I don't think it's usually Machiavellian, and every male friend/roommate/colleague/boyfriend/now husband I've pointed it out to has agreed with me, but it takes a long time to overcome decades of habits.

[daymare]

So in some ways, noting someone's anniversary or birthday and sending a card is increasing the number of contact points and helps keep a relationship going.

Note bolded.

Men don't need to "keep a relationship going". When I call one of my brothers or old friends, it doesn't matter if I talked to them yesterday or two years ago. We relate to each other as if it were yesterday. Also, we express love to others by doing real helping things, not symbolic things. Help me hang drywall, not send me a birthday card. Give me advice on this mutual fund, not come to my baby shower. It's much more satisfying for us. Men express love working side by side, women express love working face to face.
This is a gross generalization, and YMMV. I don't think that either the generalized female way of relating or the generalized male way of relating is better than the other, but it's important to understand and appreciate the difference. Maybe meet somewhere in the middle.

So, the part of my quote that you bolded was my effort to explain why some people make a big deal out of remembering or not remembering someone's birthday.  I in fact am not one of them - I call my parents and brother on their birthdays because they appreciate it, and always ask my husband what he wants to do for his, and call my friends on their birthday when I can & remember, but it's not a big deal.  I find what you said interesting, and I think we have much more in common that it would appear - despite being a woman, I don't fit your generalizations very well (and neither do lots of the women I'm friends with).  I'm someone who appreciates acts of service - I dig it when my husband does all the dishes more than if he buys me flowers.  And I show my love for him by doing useful things as well.  I too have lots of friends who I can not talk to for months on end (sometimes years), and we can pick up where we left off.  Also, I love talking about stocks and investing and loathe baby showers.

I think what I find very interesting about the conversation (and relate to), is the idea that, no, women aren't universally and inherently softer/nicer/more interested in maintaining social connections.  Much of the behavior that is attributed to women (what you call 'the female way') is actually in part a set of expectations that many women don't enjoy being expected to do, or chafe under.  I don't think one 'way' is better than the other, just that they involve different amounts of work or different kinds of work.

What do you think about the evidence showing that women have larger and more diverse social networks than men, with more people they consider very close? (See Antonucci, Akiyama, & Lansford, 1998; Antonucci & Akiyama, 1987a; Ross & Mirowsky, 1989; Turner & Marino, 1994).  It's interesting that elderly women tend to have larger social networks than elderly men, for many of whom their wife is their primary source of social contact.  I don't think there's a broadly 'better' number of friends to have, or way of connecting with friends, but it's an interesting phenomenon that men end up with fewer social ties in their old age than women.  Part of it is likely the fact that men live shorter lives.  But part of it might be that some men find it easy to rely on their wives for social connection and for organizing their social calendar, and that might leave them in a weakened position (socially) later in life.  I'd bring up the same concerns about someone delegating management of finances (or the earning of income) to their partner, even though many (typically women) do make this choice, and feel (along with their partners) that it works for them.

Does it ever get exhausting thinking of new ways to feel slighted and persecuted?  If I ever felt the need to keep tabs on 'emotional labor' I'd leave the damned relationship or off myself.

I'm trying to understand what your goal was in commenting - chastising us for discussing a topic we find interesting?  It doesn't seem like equality in a relationship, or equal division of labor, is something that you care about.  That's understandable, especially if doing so comes out in your favor.  Do you disagree that 'emotional labor' is work/effort of some kind?  It makes sense to me that if it is, it should be considered when assessing overall work load within a household.  Even in business, individuals who manage others often have less time to devote to their own projects because managing someone and delegating work, etc, is a form of work even if there's no physical output.

[daymare]

I see this, too. Men, too, place this expectation on you, not because they particularly appreciate the behaviors, but because that's just what they're accustomed to women doing.

Yeah.  I don't think it's usually Machiavellian, and every male friend/roommate/colleague/boyfriend/now husband I've pointed it out to has agreed with me, but it takes a long time to overcome decades of habits.

I think that's exactly why I find this discussing interesting - it's possible there is no ill will or nefarious intent on anyone's part, and yet part of the population is systemically expected to do more of a certain kind of work because of people's (often subconscious) beliefs.  I feel like I can see both sides of the discussion - on one hand, I'm a woman and I've experienced all of the assumptions/obligations that go with that.  On the other hand, I relate more to many of the stereotypically 'male' traits (and many of my female friends do too, so it's not that I'm different from other women, just that we women are way more diverse than stereotypes allow for).  It's easy to dismiss a topic like this, especially if you're in the advantaged position where less is expected of you, but I guess at heart I'm just a true believer that an equal relationship is for me going to create the best, most loving situation.  And while I'm not against specialization or division of labor that's not truly equal (ie, 50/50 for everything) - I was trained as an economist, for God's sake - I think it serves everyone to understand the true division of labor and that if half a couple feels burdened by an expectation that they feel is unfair, it's for the best to get that discussed and in the open.

[Louisville]

So in some ways, noting someone's anniversary or birthday and sending a card is increasing the number of contact points and helps keep a relationship going.

Note bolded.

Men don't need to "keep a relationship going". When I call one of my brothers or old friends, it doesn't matter if I talked to them yesterday or two years ago. We relate to each other as if it were yesterday. Also, we express love to others by doing real helping things, not symbolic things. Help me hang drywall, not send me a birthday card. Give me advice on this mutual fund, not come to my baby shower. It's much more satisfying for us. Men express love working side by side, women express love working face to face.
This is a gross generalization, and YMMV. I don't think that either the generalized female way of relating or the generalized male way of relating is better than the other, but it's important to understand and appreciate the difference. Maybe meet somewhere in the middle.

So, the part of my quote that you bolded was my effort to explain why some people make a big deal out of remembering or not remembering someone's birthday.  I in fact am not one of them - I call my parents and brother on their birthdays because they appreciate it, and always ask my husband what he wants to do for his, and call my friends on their birthday when I can & remember, but it's not a big deal.  I find what you said interesting, and I think we have much more in common that it would appear - despite being a woman, I don't fit your generalizations very well (and neither do lots of the women I'm friends with).  I'm someone who appreciates acts of service - I dig it when my husband does all the dishes more than if he buys me flowers.  And I show my love for him by doing useful things as well.  I too have lots of friends who I can not talk to for months on end (sometimes years), and we can pick up where we left off.  Also, I love talking about stocks and investing and loathe baby showers.

I think what I find very interesting about the conversation (and relate to), is the idea that, no, women aren't universally and inherently softer/nicer/more interested in maintaining social connections.  Much of the behavior that is attributed to women (what you call 'the female way') is actually in part a set of expectations that many women don't enjoy being expected to do, or chafe under.  I don't think one 'way' is better than the other, just that they involve different amounts of work or different kinds of work.

What do you think about the evidence showing that women have larger and more diverse social networks than men, with more people they consider very close? (See Antonucci, Akiyama, & Lansford, 1998; Antonucci & Akiyama, 1987a; Ross & Mirowsky, 1989; Turner & Marino, 1994).  It's interesting that elderly women tend to have larger social networks than elderly men, for many of whom their wife is their primary source of social contact.  I don't think there's a broadly 'better' number of friends to have, or way of connecting with friends, but it's an interesting phenomenon that men end up with fewer social ties in their old age than women.  Part of it is likely the fact that men live shorter lives.  But part of it might be that some men find it easy to rely on their wives for social connection and for organizing their social calendar, and that might leave them in a weakened position (socially) later in life.  I'd bring up the same concerns about someone delegating management of finances (or the earning of income) to their partner, even though many (typically women) do make this choice, and feel (along with their partners) that it works for them.

Does it ever get exhausting thinking of new ways to feel slighted and persecuted?  If I ever felt the need to keep tabs on 'emotional labor' I'd leave the damned relationship or off myself.

I'm trying to understand what your goal was in commenting - chastising us for discussing a topic we find interesting?  It doesn't seem like equality in a relationship, or equal division of labor, is something that you care about.  That's understandable, especially if doing so comes out in your favor.  Do you disagree that 'emotional labor' is work/effort of some kind?  It makes sense to me that if it is, it should be considered when assessing overall work load within a household.  Even in business, individuals who manage others often have less time to devote to their own projects because managing someone and delegating work, etc, is a form of work even if there's no physical output.

Right. So you don't fit under my generalization. My wife doesn't either. She gets calls from her mom and sister to "touch base". She eventually asks them if there's a specific reason for their call and they take that as dismissive or abrasive.
The study you cite maybe does support my generalization. As people age, they do less. Since men's socializing style tends to be "let's do something together" rather than "let's talk", decrease in activity means decrease in socialization.
 

[ncornilsen]

I've read more of the article, and retract my previous statement. I was expecting this to be another one of those "anything we do for a man is preventing use females from realizing our potential and ruins our lives. Men are completely incompetent, but they should do everything in and out of the house to my standards, so I have time to write blogs about how the shape of contemporary hedge trimming is another way a patriarchal society subliminally oppresses women." And indeed, the first few pages supported that thought. But I read more, and have a little more understanding of the crux of the frustration. I think.

First, any time I say something to the effect of "Women do..." or 'men do' or 'men are', please append  "in a grossly general way, but certainly not 100% of them," to the front of that absolute statement, should I forget to.

It appears to me, that the following things are the issue.
1. It's a problem that it is expected of women only.
2. It's a problem that women are the ones who value and notice it
3. It's a problem that women are the only ones who do it.

#1 - Yeah, I could see this being frustrating, exponentially more when combine with #2. And even if your partner does not have that expectation, why is it assumed that it would fall to you, as the female to do it, and why is it required of you to push back, even against other women, when it has gone too far. And in so far as this ONE issue is concerned, that's unfortunate, and I will consciously try not to expect it of women or perpetuate this.

#2 - This would be a problem, but I don't think it's absolute. I've never heard the term emotional labor before, but I do notice that my fiancé does take on these things more than I do. I do, however, make sure to be involved in picking out presents and writing cards, etc, and certainly thank her when she does something I overlooked.

#3 - This one I kind of call bullshit on.  Emotional labor doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists in the context of 50+ other types of tasks a person has to do to live. The individuals in that compilation saying things like "Getting the meal and the calm is male privilege" is ridiculous. Maybe I should contend that "getting the calm and the mowed lawn is female privilege." If the general arrangement that woman had with her partner was "you do the EL and make dinner, and I will take care of literally everything else" I'd have zero sympathy for her. If he was a lazy slob who's household chores were limited to polishing the Xbox controller, than that's not misogyny, it's just that that guy is a tool.
Other comments I read like "when is it our turn? when will men do something for us" are unfair, and untrue. There are forms of labor these women are probably blind to. I had to point out how much time maintaining the yard and house was before she saw that... so I don't think men are the only ones that have blindspots. whether those blind spots are due to social condition or general dickishness not withstanding.

I don't have a written or even spoken agreement for division of labor in my household, without which I can see how one might either feel overburdened or like everything is fine while not seeing how the other person is overburdened. But this ALSO is not a male privilege thing, it's called being in a relationship. You need mutually respectful communication, he's going to need boundaries as will she. But, Both people MUST bend. Both people MUST give. An individual called Winna, in the PDF, said she had been carving off snippets of themselves over the years, conforming to his expectations, and realized she needed to divorce him because of that. He probably changed too! How the FUCK can she expect to spend her life with someone, without some compromise or changing of herself!? I realize this is a matter of degree, maybe she changed too much.

I guess what I'm trying to say is most of what I read in that PDF, at least the first parts, was just bad relationships, and people being resentful they didn't enforce boundaries. That ISNT patriarchy or male privilege. And creating a new way to consider yourself victimized won't help either.

[onlykelsey]

1. It's a problem that it is expected of women only.
2. It's a problem that women are the ones who value and notice it
3. It's a problem that women are the only ones who do it.

#1 - Yeah, I could see this being frustrating, exponentially more when combine with #2. And even if your partner does not have that expectation, why is it assumed that it would fall to you, as the female to do it, and why is it required of you to push back, even against other women, when it has gone too far. And in so far as this ONE issue is concerned, that's unfortunate, and I will consciously try not to expect it of women or perpetuate this.

#2 - This would be a problem, but I don't think it's absolute. I've never heard the term emotional labor before, but I do notice that my fiancé does take on these things more than I do. I do, however, make sure to be involved in picking out presents and writing cards, etc, and certainly thank her when she does something I overlooked.

#3 - This one I kind of call bullshit on.  Emotional labor doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists in the context of 50+ other types of tasks a person has to do to live. The individuals in that compilation saying things like "Getting the meal and the calm is male privilege" is ridiculous. Maybe I should contend that "getting the calm and the mowed lawn is female privilege." If the general arrangement that woman had with her partner was "you do the EL and make dinner, and I will take care of literally everything else" I'd have zero sympathy for her. If he was a lazy slob who's household chores were limited to polishing the Xbox controller, than that's not misogyny, it's just that that guy is a tool.
Other comments I read like "when is it our turn? when will men do something for us" are unfair, and untrue. There are forms of labor these women are probably blind to. I had to point out how much time maintaining the yard and house was before she saw that... so I don't think men are the only ones that have blindspots. whether those blind spots are due to social condition or general dickishness not withstanding.

I don't have a written or even spoken agreement for division of labor in my household, without which I can see how one might either feel overburdened or like everything is fine while not seeing how the other person is overburdened. But this ALSO is not a male privilege thing, it's called being in a relationship. You need mutually respectful communication, he's going to need boundaries as will she. But, Both people MUST bend. Both people MUST give. An individual called Winna, in the PDF, said she had been carving off snippets of themselves over the years, conforming to his expectations, and realized she needed to divorce him because of that. He probably changed too! How the FUCK can she expect to spend her life with someone, without some compromise or changing of herself!? I realize this is a matter of degree, maybe she changed too much.

I guess what I'm trying to say is most of what I read in that PDF, at least the first parts, was just bad relationships, and people being resentful they didn't enforce boundaries. That ISNT patriarchy or male privilege. And creating a new way to consider yourself victimized won't help either.

On your response to problem #2, I think recognizing that emotional labor is a thing, and that it adds value to a household/family (even if it's hard to value it exactly) is a huge part of the problem.

On #3, I think you're wrong.  It is a problem that women are the only ones who do it. I'd argue there is a mirror to that problem: it's a problem that men are expected to be the provider and take over other parts of the relationship or household upkeep as a result of their gender.  Traditional division of labor works for some people, but I don't think people discuss the division enough, and impose gender norms on their own and others' relationships without questioning it, which generally works against women more than men.  I know very few stay at home mothers, but I see women get called out for not having a clean enough house/not feeding their kids well enough/not attending to their elderly parents' needs, etc literally exponentially more than men do.  Women generally work fulltime jobs as well, and in many relationships outearn/outlabor their male partners.

I try to make my husband aware of when he or his friends/family are placing unfair expectations on me, and I always try to thank him for lifting boxes/walking the dog in the snow/etc.  Lifting things is easier for 6'4 him than me, and I have an easier time organizing social events, but I think we should both be thankful towards each other, and not take it for granted.

[Gin1984]

I've read more of the article, and retract my previous statement. I was expecting this to be another one of those "anything we do for a man is preventing use females from realizing our potential and ruins our lives. Men are completely incompetent, but they should do everything in and out of the house to my standards, so I have time to write blogs about how the shape of contemporary hedge trimming is another way a patriarchal society subliminally oppresses women." And indeed, the first few pages supported that thought. But I read more, and have a little more understanding of the crux of the frustration. I think.

First, any time I say something to the effect of "Women do..." or 'men do' or 'men are', please append  "in a grossly general way, but certainly not 100% of them," to the front of that absolute statement, should I forget to.

It appears to me, that the following things are the issue.
1. It's a problem that it is expected of women only.
2. It's a problem that women are the ones who value and notice it
3. It's a problem that women are the only ones who do it.

#1 - Yeah, I could see this being frustrating, exponentially more when combine with #2. And even if your partner does not have that expectation, why is it assumed that it would fall to you, as the female to do it, and why is it required of you to push back, even against other women, when it has gone too far. And in so far as this ONE issue is concerned, that's unfortunate, and I will consciously try not to expect it of women or perpetuate this.

#2 - This would be a problem, but I don't think it's absolute. I've never heard the term emotional labor before, but I do notice that my fiancé does take on these things more than I do. I do, however, make sure to be involved in picking out presents and writing cards, etc, and certainly thank her when she does something I overlooked.

#3 - This one I kind of call bullshit on.  Emotional labor doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists in the context of 50+ other types of tasks a person has to do to live. The individuals in that compilation saying things like "Getting the meal and the calm is male privilege" is ridiculous. Maybe I should contend that "getting the calm and the mowed lawn is female privilege." If the general arrangement that woman had with her partner was "you do the EL and make dinner, and I will take care of literally everything else" I'd have zero sympathy for her. If he was a lazy slob who's household chores were limited to polishing the Xbox controller, than that's not misogyny, it's just that that guy is a tool.
Other comments I read like "when is it our turn? when will men do something for us" are unfair, and untrue. There are forms of labor these women are probably blind to. I had to point out how much time maintaining the yard and house was before she saw that... so I don't think men are the only ones that have blindspots. whether those blind spots are due to social condition or general dickishness not withstanding.

I don't have a written or even spoken agreement for division of labor in my household, without which I can see how one might either feel overburdened or like everything is fine while not seeing how the other person is overburdened. But this ALSO is not a male privilege thing, it's called being in a relationship. You need mutually respectful communication, he's going to need boundaries as will she. But, Both people MUST bend. Both people MUST give. An individual called Winna, in the PDF, said she had been carving off snippets of themselves over the years, conforming to his expectations, and realized she needed to divorce him because of that. He probably changed too! How the FUCK can she expect to spend her life with someone, without some compromise or changing of herself!? I realize this is a matter of degree, maybe she changed too much.

I guess what I'm trying to say is most of what I read in that PDF, at least the first parts, was just bad relationships, and people being resentful they didn't enforce boundaries. That ISNT patriarchy or male privilege. And creating a new way to consider yourself victimized won't help either.

Seriously, I want to stop you and say thank you.  In regard to the first bolded, the only way that we (all people) account for the biases in the culture we are raised in, is to be aware of it and consciously stop it.  So for you being willing to, I appreciate it.
But, (sorry) on to the second bolded, when our culture enforces a certain behavior based on gender, with social negatives, if you do not conform, what would you call it?  Many times both men and women were raised as children that girls helped with chores (learning acceptable levels of cleanliness) and boys did not, or if they did, it was outside.  Therefore both are indoctrinated that behavior is normal and most won't buck that. This forum is unusual is that respect and I think it is why you will find so many male feminists on here.  Which means the within the couple they don't communicate about it, and the woman does the bending.  The man was never taught to be aware of how what she is responsible for (outside of his worldview) and she was taught it was not his responsibility to be aware. 

[daymare]

It appears to me, that the following things are the issue.
1. It's a problem that it is expected of women only.
2. It's a problem that women are the ones who value and notice it
3. It's a problem that women are the only ones who do it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is most of what I read in that PDF, at least the first parts, was just bad relationships, and people being resentful they didn't enforce boundaries. That ISNT patriarchy or male privilege.

I appreciate a lot of the points you bring up - though I'm not sure I agree with #2.  I think it's more than (many) men tend to expect women to do emotional labor in their relationship, and don't proactively express appreciation but are upset/angry if women don't continue performing EL.  Take for example the men who expect their wives to remember the husband's family's birthdays, and get upset when they don't get acknowledged, or expect the wives to buy gifts from the husband's family.  I do think it works both ways - it's just easy to notice all of the things you do for others, and disregard (even if not intentionally) the things others do for you.  So I think it's definitely important to factor in things (many) men do in their households, which often includes manual labor, yard-work, car maintenance, etc.  Women can be ungrateful and unappreciative of what their partners do, it's not something exclusive to either gender.

However, I don't agree with your final point - that none of this is evidence of male privilege or patriarchy.  Sure, you can point to any of the individual relationships and view that as just a bad relationship where boundaries weren't properly set.  But, it's actually a collective set of many relationships across all kinds of people, with gendered patterns emerging.  Isn't there a point at which we acknowledge there's something systematic going on?  Like, pretty much every woman I know who changed her last name to her husband's describes it as a personal choice she made that works for her family ... and yet, when you look further and realize it's way unbalanced how many men do the same (take their wife's last name), you need to acknowledge there's something systematic there as well, and there are all sorts of expectations of men & women that contribute to outcomes.  And like Kelsey says, these expectations can hurt both men and women - it's deeply unfair, for instance, that some people expect men to do all the financial providing for a family just because of their male gender, or think their parenting won't be competent and loving just because of their male gender.

And creating a new way to consider yourself victimized won't help either.

This is very similar to the tone of your first post.  Why are you compelled to frame this discussion, between adults who have made the conscious decision to respond to this post in the 'Off Topic' section, presumably because they are interested, as something negative, an attempt by people to make themselves into victims?  I truly don't understand where you're coming from here.

[ncornilsen]

daymare,  I'm really speaking more to the people who wrote the posts in that PDF.

What I'm trying to say, is that it is very easy, to take this one small facet of life, put it in a vacuum. In that vacuum, the imbalance that makes up a tiny percentage of your life as a whole, becomes massive and overstated. It then is 'obvious' that you're a victim, it's men's fault, and turns men into evil 'others' who only want to take advantage of you. It's pervasive in the tones of 3/4 of the examples in that article.

By doing so, by claiming victimhood, you absolve yourself of any responsibility to do anything about it, such as speaking up, or asking for involvement of your partner. It also drives a wedge between the relationship, preventing this communication. I bet 95% of those examples could be fixed with a few conversations... unless someone's an asshole... then all bets are off.

As for my point three that you guys have taken issue with, I acknowledge that it's a gendered difference reinforced by century's of our culture. Sometimes those things have harmed men, more often women. Maybe my definition of 'privilege' and patriarchy is off, but those words carry the connotation that it's deliberate, like a conspiracy. I also feel like it's viewed as a bad thing that genders have differences... I think it would be boring if men and women were the same.

[Gin1984]

daymare,  I'm really speaking more to the people who wrote the posts in that PDF.

What I'm trying to say, is that it is very easy, to take this one small facet of life, put it in a vacuum. In that vacuum, the imbalance that makes up a tiny percentage of your life as a whole, becomes massive and overstated. It then is 'obvious' that you're a victim, it's men's fault, and turns men into evil 'others' who only want to take advantage of you. It's pervasive in the tones of 3/4 of the examples in that article.

By doing so, by claiming victimhood, you absolve yourself of any responsibility to do anything about it, such as speaking up, or asking for involvement of your partner. It also drives a wedge between the relationship, preventing this communication. I bet 95% of those examples could be fixed with a few conversations... unless someone's an asshole... then all bets are off.

As for my point three that you guys have taken issue with, I acknowledge that it's a gendered difference reinforced by century's of our culture. Sometimes those things have harmed men, more often women. Maybe my definition of 'privilege' and patriarchy is off, but those words carry the connotation that it's deliberate, like a conspiracy. I also feel like it's viewed as a bad thing that genders have differences... I think it would be boring if men and women were the same.

Well given that it has been shown that there is more internal variability within the genders than between them, even WITH the biases we are raised with, you are not exactly accurate.  And yes, it is your definition.  Given that most people who benefit from and propagate sexism are not even aware of their bias, you seem to misunderstand the main issues/definitions. 

[Cressida]

I bet 95% of those examples could be fixed with a few conversations...

What would "fixed" look like to you?

I also feel like it's viewed as a bad thing that genders have differences... I think it would be boring if men and women were the same.

That's a convenient viewpoint, coming from a member of the dominant sex. Take a step back and think about it.

[expatartist]

What do you think about the evidence showing that women have larger and more diverse social networks than men, with more people they consider very close? (See Antonucci, Akiyama, & Lansford, 1998; Antonucci & Akiyama, 1987a; Ross & Mirowsky, 1989; Turner & Marino, 1994).  It's interesting that elderly women tend to have larger social networks than elderly men, for many of whom their wife is their primary source of social contact.  I don't think there's a broadly 'better' number of friends to have, or way of connecting with friends, but it's an interesting phenomenon that men end up with fewer social ties in their old age than women.  Part of it is likely the fact that men live shorter lives.  But part of it might be that some men find it easy to rely on their wives for social connection and for organizing their social calendar, and that might leave them in a weakened position (socially) later in life.  I'd bring up the same concerns about someone delegating management of finances (or the earning of income) to their partner, even though many (typically women) do make this choice, and feel (along with their partners) that it works for them.

Good point. Social capital is a huge factor in our lives. It can affect our incomes as well.

DH is struggling to find a job in part because he doesn't stay in casual touch with ex colleagues and friends from where we've lived. We have moved around a lot, and have made clusters of friends and contacts everywhere we've lived. I keep up with family & friends via social media and only do the basics, don't bother with birthdays & holidays except for an email or Skype with family, but stay in sporadic touch throughout the years, look them up if I'm in town, etc.

[daymare]

daymare,  I'm really speaking more to the people who wrote the posts in that PDF.

What I'm trying to say, is that it is very easy, to take this one small facet of life, put it in a vacuum. In that vacuum, the imbalance that makes up a tiny percentage of your life as a whole, becomes massive and overstated. It then is 'obvious' that you're a victim, it's men's fault, and turns men into evil 'others' who only want to take advantage of you. It's pervasive in the tones of 3/4 of the examples in that article.

By doing so, by claiming victimhood, you absolve yourself of any responsibility to do anything about it, such as speaking up, or asking for involvement of your partner. It also drives a wedge between the relationship, preventing this communication. I bet 95% of those examples could be fixed with a few conversations... unless someone's an asshole... then all bets are off.

As for my point three that you guys have taken issue with, I acknowledge that it's a gendered difference reinforced by century's of our culture. Sometimes those things have harmed men, more often women. Maybe my definition of 'privilege' and patriarchy is off, but those words carry the connotation that it's deliberate, like a conspiracy. I also feel like it's viewed as a bad thing that genders have differences... I think it would be boring if men and women were the same.

Ok, thanks for clarifying that you're referring more to the MetaFilter discussion than the one here.  Still, we're interpreting things wildly differently.  I'm not seeing much of the black-and-white 'men are evil' attitude from those posters ... many of whom are talking about their intimate relationships with their boyfriends/husbands, people who they clearly love and do not think are pure evil.  Next, you say that many are claiming victim-hood and absolving themselves of the need to speak up.  Well, seems to me that many are struggling with articulating frustrating regarding EL they've felt (but haven't been able to verbalize - countless people say 'thanks for giving me to the vocabulary to talk about this'), which is actually the first step to discussing and possibly solving the problem.  Lots of people mention sharing the thread with their SOs (but this was very far into the document, so I can understand that most readers including you probably didn't get that far).

Lastly, if you are interested, I recommended you read this article about tone policing: https://medium.com/@chanda/what-s-the-harm-in-tone-policing-e933d90af247#.lv55m1dam
If many women are feeling that society has onerous expectations of them, and this work (emotional labor) is not acknowledged and thus the women are troubled by the situation, I'm not sure what is wrong about a group of them getting together for a (voluntary, adult) discussion.  Your insistence that you don't like their tone, and that discredits the very real (to them) situation they're dealing with, is an approach that serves to shut down discussion, keep the status quo, and stop anything from changing.  Here's your first comment:

Does it ever get exhausting thinking of new ways to feel slighted and persecuted?  If I ever felt the need to keep tabs on 'emotional labor' I'd leave the damned relationship or off myself.

Perhaps you can understand why some women have not been able to resolve this issue they feel exists, if their partners react the way you do? (And I'll note that your reaction was to women who you're not in a relationship with discussing their feelings on a situation, so you had even less invested than if it had been your fiancée bringing the topic up.)

Social capital is a huge factor in our lives. It can affect our incomes as well.

DH is struggling to find a job in part because he doesn't stay in casual touch with ex colleagues and friends from where we've lived. We have moved around a lot, and have made clusters of friends and contacts everywhere we've lived. I keep up with family & friends via social media and only do the basics, don't bother with birthdays & holidays except for an email or Skype with family, but stay in sporadic touch throughout the years, look them up if I'm in town, etc.

I find social capital to be a really fascinating topic, mostly because I don't think my personality is inherently very well suited to keeping in touch (especially with weaker points of contact), but I like to be conscious in my actions/thinking, so I try to learn from the people I see who are great at this.  For instance, when I was 21 and fresh out of college, I had a financial advisor for a couple of years.  It was a great relationship but it's been longer since the professional relationship ended than it went on.  And yet, he is so fantastic at this - he called to connect me with someone potentially useful for my career, and later reached out about about finding a software engineer to do something for him (I know many).  Both interactions left me feeling really good.  And I still get his quarterly client emails that he uses to touch base, so I like to read those and see how he connects/reaches out to people.

Serpentstooth said some awesome stuff in her journal a while back about social capital, how it's enormously useful but can be something you don't pay attention to, and don't accumulate, only to realize when you really need it, that it's very powerful to have and shitty not to have built up.  I don't think either sex has the monopoly on social capital, which makes no sense as a belief given the greater variability within each sex than between them, but it's interesting to learn from people who seem to understand/master the concept.

[MayDay]

The older I get (I'm not that old- 33) the more the social capitol thing seems important to me, and the harder it is. 

When you are in school full time, you are interacting constantly with your peers, so it takes no effort to keep in touch- you just see them all the time!  But as I've worked and had kids, dang it is hard for introvert me to keep up with people.  And introvert H is terrible too- so neither of us are doing it naturally. 

But having kids has really nailed it.  You have got to be maintaining close-ish relationships if you want to

-have someone to call when you desperately need a break from the screaming baby before you shake it
-have someone to watch your kids because its a snow day and you work
-have someone who is sharing the gossip about which teachers are terrible and which are good
-have someone who knows that such and such program is never advertised but is phenomenal

And my experience has been that even in 2 working parent families, that stuff ALL falls to the mom.  I am a ASHM so naturally I take over that stuff, but working moms are doing it to.  And it is probably fair to say that it just matters less to dads- fair enough for some of the school/programming/which is the best dr. type stuff.  But overall, women take on a MUCH bigger burden for that kind of relationship building that benefits the whole family. 

I don't know.  I can't really discuss it without getting angry.  There is a study I read about working spouses, and who thinks they do more housework/chores, and men think they do equal work.  But they don't, and that isn't even counting the emotional work! 

[ncornilsen]

I bet 95% of those examples could be fixed with a few conversations...

What would "fixed" look like to you?

I also feel like it's viewed as a bad thing that genders have differences... I think it would be boring if men and women were the same.

That's a convenient viewpoint, coming from a member of the dominant sex. Take a step back and think about it.

Fixed would look like a more equitable balance of this stuff, or at least them compensating in other ways that allows for a fair division of labor within one's life.

I've thought about it. Men and women cannon, will not, ever, be the same.  We can strive for equality..., and in some areas, we have work to do. In other areas, women have men at a disadvantage. 

Daymare - your comment about my initial response is taken. I've already stated that I retract that after reading further in that metafilter. I was expecting it to be one of those "#give your cash to women" stupidfests or another way to falsely inflate the pay gap between men and women. upon further reflection EL is a thing, and the rest of reaction is because I took personally because I do try to make sure I don't lean on my SO unfairly in my relationship, which has nothing to do with what women at large deal with.

At the point of my second post, I had not gotten to the end of that article. Some of the anecdotes did show some pretty stubborn and unreasonable responses on the part of men.  I'm going to read your recommended article. I would like to pose to you, as something for you to consider, that the same things could be said about the red-pill people. Their tone is absolutely horrendous, but I believe it has some small kernels of legitimacy. (emphasis on small.)

(read most of article at this point.) Not really anything new to me there. If you're getting boned, politely asking the other to take their boot off your throat probably won't get anything done. I'd argue with the premise that tone-policing is only used against minorities, though... I'd say it's a pretty universal tool at this point. Perhaps I should have used a different word besides tone, but I still think my point about EL not existing in a vacuum is valid; anytime you're talking division of domestic labor, which this is, you have to look at the whole relationship.

I understand that this does give women the vocab to talk about it, and that's important. I just hope they'll open their minds to the things their male partner does that they aren't seeing or valuing.

Gin - do you have a link to that study about how there's more variation in a gender than between them? I don't buy it but would be curious to read about it.

[onlykelsey]

I've thought about it. Men and women cannon, will not, ever, be the same.  We can strive for equality..., and in some areas, we have work to do. In other areas, women have men at a disadvantage.

I don't think it's really that men are better at some things than women, and women are better at other things.  Certain women are better at certain things, and certain men are better at others.  Making assumptions about people in relationships is lazy and counterproductive.  Just meet each human being where they are and find out what they're good at without preconceptions.  I'll grant that certain stereotypes make sense 95% of the time (men are on average much stronger in absolute, if not relative terms; women give birth and men do not, etc), but most of the stereotypes we're talking about here are just vast outdated generalizations. 

If my new boss assumed I wouldn't be able to lift things because I'm a petite size 2 women, they'd be mistaken, and not using me efficiently as an employee.  Similarly, if they thought my 6'4 husband was great at moving boxes because he's a man, they'd be mistaken, because he's lanky and has a back injury.

[daymare]

Daymare - your comment about my initial response is taken. I've already stated that I retract that after reading further in that metafilter. I was expecting it to be one of those "#give your cash to women" stupidfests or another way to falsely inflate the pay gap between men and women. upon further reflection EL is a thing, and the rest of reaction is because I took personally because I do try to make sure I don't lean on my SO unfairly in my relationship, which has nothing to do with what women at large deal with.

I would like to pose to you, as something for you to consider, that the same things could be said about the red-pill people. Their tone is absolutely horrendous, but I believe it has some small kernels of legitimacy. (emphasis on small.)

I've actually read a fair amount about Red Pill (both the actual stuff on Reddit, and discussions of it, ie the threads here that started with Carini's cheating post) because while I think these people are vile, I'd rather be knowledgeable about how those people think/act and that they exist, rather than being ignorant. (Same reason I read The Game to learn all about negging/similar techniques.)  Sure, you pick out some good things about the philosophy - that men try to improve themselves by working out, etc.  But I fundamentally disagree with their views about men/women and find those people absolutely disgusting.  I am not that interested in generalizations about men/women when they're applied to specific individuals in a specific relationship - I don't think that's useful.  As I stated earlier, equality is the most important thing for me in my relationship (and so the RP philosophy is no bueno for me).  While that doesn't mean everything has to be done 50/50, it does mean that both of us know about our finances (even though I manage them), and both of us are capable of doing any chore, including cooking (even though I don't enjoy it and my husband does).  So, I actually think that while the tone of Red Pill is horrendous, their underlying assumptions are even more horrendous.  And, I don't find the tone of the MetaFilter thread problematic, so I don't quite understand how they are similar.

[Gin1984]

I bet 95% of those examples could be fixed with a few conversations...

What would "fixed" look like to you?

I also feel like it's viewed as a bad thing that genders have differences... I think it would be boring if men and women were the same.

That's a convenient viewpoint, coming from a member of the dominant sex. Take a step back and think about it.

Fixed would look like a more equitable balance of this stuff, or at least them compensating in other ways that allows for a fair division of labor within one's life.

I've thought about it. Men and women cannon, will not, ever, be the same.  We can strive for equality..., and in some areas, we have work to do. In other areas, women have men at a disadvantage. 

Daymare - your comment about my initial response is taken. I've already stated that I retract that after reading further in that metafilter. I was expecting it to be one of those "#give your cash to women" stupidfests or another way to falsely inflate the pay gap between men and women. upon further reflection EL is a thing, and the rest of reaction is because I took personally because I do try to make sure I don't lean on my SO unfairly in my relationship, which has nothing to do with what women at large deal with.

At the point of my second post, I had not gotten to the end of that article. Some of the anecdotes did show some pretty stubborn and unreasonable responses on the part of men.  I'm going to read your recommended article. I would like to pose to you, as something for you to consider, that the same things could be said about the red-pill people. Their tone is absolutely horrendous, but I believe it has some small kernels of legitimacy. (emphasis on small.)

(read most of article at this point.) Not really anything new to me there. If you're getting boned, politely asking the other to take their boot off your throat probably won't get anything done. I'd argue with the premise that tone-policing is only used against minorities, though... I'd say it's a pretty universal tool at this point. Perhaps I should have used a different word besides tone, but I still think my point about EL not existing in a vacuum is valid; anytime you're talking division of domestic labor, which this is, you have to look at the whole relationship.

I understand that this does give women the vocab to talk about it, and that's important. I just hope they'll open their minds to the things their male partner does that they aren't seeing or valuing.

Gin - do you have a link to that study about how there's more variation in a gender than between them? I don't buy it but would be curious to read about it.

Yes, many.  How many would you like and is there a focal area you want?

[Louisville]

Daymare - your comment about my initial response is taken. I've already stated that I retract that after reading further in that metafilter. I was expecting it to be one of those "#give your cash to women" stupidfests or another way to falsely inflate the pay gap between men and women. upon further reflection EL is a thing, and the rest of reaction is because I took personally because I do try to make sure I don't lean on my SO unfairly in my relationship, which has nothing to do with what women at large deal with.

I would like to pose to you, as something for you to consider, that the same things could be said about the red-pill people. Their tone is absolutely horrendous, but I believe it has some small kernels of legitimacy. (emphasis on small.)

I've actually read a fair amount about Red Pill (both the actual stuff on Reddit, and discussions of it, ie the threads here that started with Carini's cheating post) because while I think these people are vile, I'd rather be knowledgeable about how those people think/act and that they exist, rather than being ignorant. (Same reason I read The Game to learn all about negging/similar techniques.)  Sure, you pick out some good things about the philosophy - that men try to improve themselves by working out, etc.  But I fundamentally disagree with their views about men/women and find those people absolutely disgusting.  I am not that interested in generalizations about men/women when they're applied to specific individuals in a specific relationship - I don't think that's useful.  As I stated earlier, equality is the most important thing for me in my relationship (and so the RP philosophy is no bueno for me).  While that doesn't mean everything has to be done 50/50, it does mean that both of us know about our finances (even though I manage them), and both of us are capable of doing any chore, including cooking (even though I don't enjoy it and my husband does).  So, I actually think that while the tone of Red Pill is horrendous, their underlying assumptions are even more horrendous.  And, I don't find the tone of the MetaFilter thread problematic, so I don't quite understand how they are similar.

But, any conversation about anything people do, that isn't about a specific example, has to use generalizations. How else could we communicate general ideas?  Are you suggesting that there are none? That we can't (or shouldn't) generalize about groups of people? I think we can and it that it's useful. We have to be careful about it, sure, but the sum of one's experience interacting with some certain defined group of people is a starting point and shouldn't just be ignored. The problem with that Red Pill thing isn't that they make generalizations, it's that their generalizations are stupid.

[ncornilsen]

If you're not referring to a specific study I can do some googling of my own.

[Gin1984]

If you're not referring to a specific study I can do some googling of my own.

I am referring to multiple studies, in multiple areas of the brain, by multiple PIs.

[daymare]

I've actually read a fair amount about Red Pill (both the actual stuff on Reddit, and discussions of it, ie the threads here that started with Carini's cheating post) because while I think these people are vile, I'd rather be knowledgeable about how those people think/act and that they exist, rather than being ignorant. (Same reason I read The Game to learn all about negging/similar techniques.)  Sure, you pick out some good things about the philosophy - that men try to improve themselves by working out, etc.  But I fundamentally disagree with their views about men/women and find those people absolutely disgusting.  I am not that interested in generalizations about men/women when they're applied to specific individuals in a specific relationship - I don't think that's useful.  As I stated earlier, equality is the most important thing for me in my relationship (and so the RP philosophy is no bueno for me).  While that doesn't mean everything has to be done 50/50, it does mean that both of us know about our finances (even though I manage them), and both of us are capable of doing any chore, including cooking (even though I don't enjoy it and my husband does).  So, I actually think that while the tone of Red Pill is horrendous, their underlying assumptions are even more horrendous.  And, I don't find the tone of the MetaFilter thread problematic, so I don't quite understand how they are similar.

But, any conversation about anything people do, that isn't about a specific example, has to use generalizations. How else could we communicate general ideas?  Are you suggesting that there are none? That we can't (or shouldn't) generalize about groups of people? I think we can and it that it's useful. We have to be careful about it, sure, but the sum of one's experience interacting with some certain defined group of people is a starting point and shouldn't just be ignored. The problem with that Red Pill thing isn't that they make generalizations, it's that their generalizations are stupid.

I agree with you that the big problem with RP is the generalizations themselves - but I don't think they're stupid (which has the connotation of being wrong but maybe harmless), more that they're hateful.  I was responding to the request that I consider the legitimacy of RP philosophy (and to ignore the tone), so I was trying to explain that in addition to thinking their views are disgusting, I don't see how their general assumptions would be useful for me as a specific individuals in my specific relationship, hence not sure what I could gain from them.  I agree that generalizations can be useful, but the whole philosophy is about applying this specific worldview onto many individual people, which I have a problem with.

[Silverado]

If you're not referring to a specific study I can do some googling of my own.

I am referring to multiple studies, in multiple areas of the brain, by multiple PIs.

Come on, twice now you've had the chance to point to at least your favorite or favorites. A third time without a reference and someone might call snake oil. :-)

[Gin1984]

If you're not referring to a specific study I can do some googling of my own.

I am referring to multiple studies, in multiple areas of the brain, by multiple PIs.

Come on, twice now you've had the chance to point to at least your favorite or favorites. A third time without a reference and someone might call snake oil. :-)

Lol, it is such a basic concept in neuroscience/ cognitive psych that I don't really think you can call it snake oil, you can't grab a brain and say male or female like you can bones.  But if someone did it would be amusing because then at least someone might give me a number of articles to post so I could argue.  But just for you a more biological neuroscience abstract:  ;)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26621705
I prefer those over the cognitive psych ones because often you get more argument in regards to psychology.  But I can post some of those, if anyone is interest.  But really people, to post articles I need you to narrow down what KIND.  There are so many that choosing is a bit difficult so if I know a bit more of interests, I can be a bit more interesting.  :)

[gooki]

From my perspective in my relationship with my wife the EL is evenly split. Yes she does more, but it's for her friends and her family. I look after my friends/family as I see fit, and the EL relating to our family is divided equally.

As far as I'm aware none of my friends or family have any expectations of her in these regards.

I understand this may not be the social norm, but i'll en-devour to ensure my children pickup similar qualities on fairness, and sharing the responsibilities on running a household.

If you're having issues with this in your household, I'd recommend you resolve it there first and then do what you can to influence society.

[Zikoris]

We have a big wall calendar that we write things on, and that takes care of most things. I'm awful at remembering things like a haircut or doctor's appointment, so my boyfriend schedules everything for me and reminds me on the day of.

We do dick all for birthdays or anniversaries other than our own. No card, gifts, nothing. We go to friends' birthday parties sometimes, and I'll bring baked goods while my boyfriend deals with the details of remembering time, place, directions, and transit route. I guess that would be pretty equal "emotional labor", though it doesn't feel like any work. As far as planning things with family, he's always organized anything to do with his parents, while I handle my own parents and extended family.

As far as keeping things restocked and cleaned, I do more of the planning/list-making and he does more of the execution. We're very minimalistic, so it's no real effort to stay on top of. Making a weekly grocery list takes three minutes tops, and meal planning for the week maybe five.

I honestly don't really feel like either of us do much "emotional labor". We just don't have any inclination to expend mental energy on anything besides our jobs and things we take pleasure from. I think my advice to anyone suffering from this would be to focus your energy on other things and enjoy life.

[daymare]

We have a big wall calendar that we write things on, and that takes care of most things. I'm awful at remembering things like a haircut or doctor's appointment, so my boyfriend schedules everything for me and reminds me on the day of.

We do dick all for birthdays or anniversaries other than our own. No card, gifts, nothing. We go to friends' birthday parties sometimes, and I'll bring baked goods while my boyfriend deals with the details of remembering time, place, directions, and transit route. I guess that would be pretty equal "emotional labor", though it doesn't feel like any work. As far as planning things with family, he's always organized anything to do with his parents, while I handle my own parents and extended family.

As far as keeping things restocked and cleaned, I do more of the planning/list-making and he does more of the execution. We're very minimalistic, so it's no real effort to stay on top of. Making a weekly grocery list takes three minutes tops, and meal planning for the week maybe five.

I honestly don't really feel like either of us do much "emotional labor". We just don't have any inclination to expend mental energy on anything besides our jobs and things we take pleasure from. I think my advice to anyone suffering from this would be to focus your energy on other things and enjoy life.

Zikoris, I relate to a lot of what you've said - I think it's because you and your boyfriend, like me and my husband, have your shit together and some systems in place and no kids hence a pretty low level of work overall.  I too find that reducing the amount of overall work involved (ie, getting rid of stuff and being more minimalist which leads to less maintenance effort, cooking in bulk so meals can be leftovers involving little work, etc) is what helps us both to feel good about division of labor overall.


Back to the general topic of EL - I find the discussion interesting because I'm not the kind of person who thinks making others comfortable/smoothing social interactions is more valuable than being intelligent/curious/creating something.  So I don't tend to do EL because it feels like something really valuable that I should do, and couple that with my philosophical belief that I am equal to my partner, and choosing to marry a man who can take of himself and feels similarly, means I don't often feel conflict regarding EL in my relationship.  (And when I do, it's more the horror that any minor inequalities would probably grow way larger if we have a kid, given how society treats mothers/fathers and their obligations differently.)  Most of my frustrations with EL come from the outside expectations that I see more broadly, culturally.

This isn't a great example, because weddings happen infrequently (in theory), but when we were planning our wedding, most of the work period fell on me - even though I am no more interested in event planning than my husband, nor did he care less about getting married.  It was a shitty amalgamation of all sorts of things - expectations that were had culturally, leading vendors to reply just to me in emails (despite both of us being on them initially, and me always adding my husband back and making the point that everything should be addressed to both of us) and to care just about my opinion, and people to ask me lots of questions about wedding planning in a volume the husband didn't receive (and both of us being asked if I (and only I) was changing my last name - ugh).  Plus the fact that I am research/planning-oriented, so I knew more about the Wedding Industrial Complex and understood that the phenomenon of supply/demand worked such that booking things early led to better service & lower price potentially, whereas my go-with-the-flow husband cared that things get done, just not when, and so thought some of my timelines were unreasonable, and that work fell on me because I made it that way. 

So it's a complicated situation, but one that I deeply didn't enjoy, and makes me feel uneasy.  For the most part I'm extremely happy with my partner, and things stay equitable through a combination of designing our life so there's less work overall, lots of communication, prioritization of equality on my part, and acceptance that we have different values/priorities.  Plus, feelings of good-will and believing your partner is sexy/cute alleviate tension during disagreements.  And yet, when the cultural expectation is that you (as a woman) care more/are naturally better at something (like with wedding planning or raising children), that can be really hard to fight even when both you and your partner are clear that the two assumptions are false.  It was a lot of effort to continually redirect vendors to also talk to my husband, and mostly I resented that all the work to fix this imbalance was on me.  Like, either I suck it up and focus on the good things in life (like Zikoris was saying), or I put in a ton of effort to make expectations more equal, and then I've still had to do that extra work.  And yes, I know both those two things I listed are entirely optional, but if you choose to opt into them, I don't like that you have to opt into the unequal expectations/burden.  That's where my frustration lies. 

[Zikoris]

Whenever this type of topic rears its head, I always wonder - are couples just inherently incapable of communicating? Or do they outright dislike each other? Isn't this type of thing (or any labor imbalance, emotional or not) an easy fix? In any relationship I've ever been in, if something wasn't working I would say something like "Hey, I seem to be doing all of X, which is causing me a lot of stress and taking up a lot of my time. Can we find a solution?" If your partner doesn't care that something's causing you unhappiness, and won't work with you to fix problems, why are you together?

[Cassie]

Very interesting topic. At age 61 it has always been my job whether I worked or not and i never thought much about it.  The older generation would have blamed me if I had forgotten and I would probably blame my DIL if I was forgotten. Now that I think about it this is really not fair-like many things in life.

[astvilla]

Hmm I always thought the traditional definition of EL was customer service workers, not in a relationship, is how I learned it.  Is this a commonly accepted use of the term EL, in relationships or is it being hijacked for lack of a better term?

Lol, it is such a basic concept in neuroscience/ cognitive psych that I don't really think you can call it snake oil, you can't grab a brain and say male or female like you can bones.  But if someone did it would be amusing because then at least someone might give me a number of articles to post so I could argue.  But just for you a more biological neuroscience abstract:  ;)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26621705
I prefer those over the cognitive psych ones because often you get more argument in regards to psychology.  But I can post some of those, if anyone is interest.  But really people, to post articles I need you to narrow down what KIND.  There are so many that choosing is a bit difficult so if I know a bit more of interests, I can be a bit more interesting.  :)

I'm pretty sure the average person has elementary or no knowledge in this field...so a lot of what we say probably sounds retarded compared to one in this field...but it might not be a good introduction to link a paper published less than a month ago in PNAS and expect all of society to suddenly wake up and think...oh we're actually the same!  Maybe a recent review article would be a better start? And there are limitations and research questions I have as an outsider curious to know more related to the PNAS article.

Gin1984, you sound like an authority on this subject, and I am definitely NOT an authority or even familiar.  So what I want to know from you is... 

1. The study basically applied different analyses to previously collected data sets in their field.  There was no experimental design, patients enrolled, trial implemented.  They took data already collected and looked at it a different way, am I correct?

2. The study only focuses on brain structure.  But that assumes brain structure defines gender differences.   But we know left-handed people are better at certain things than right-handers. Why do some say it's sexist to say men and women tend to be better at certain things than the other?  Biology is very hard to overcome and hateful attitudes sometimes comes from inconvenient truths from our biology. Can't fix it...yet apparently.

3. They do acknowledge there are female/male structure differences (little but perhaps enough) in the study. Bonobos and humans have less than 1/2 of 1% difference (chromosome 2 rearranged differently is the main one I think). Such a small difference out of the big whole on a small structural/molecular scale can have huge impact on the outcome.  You insert a salmon gene into a tomato and make it last longer, less spoilage, it's huge difference, but you only inserted 1 gene out of thousands.

4. It doesn't make sense really to have different brain structures for male/female.  We share many same organs thankfully and those structures are the same.  It has to be similar enough for reproduction. 

5. What drives masculine/feminine behaviors or patterns? Societal expectations/environment or biology?  As an amateur, I'd hypothesize both.  Not sure how much you know about genetics, but there's epigenetics (gene regulation, chromatin modifications) and genetics (the raw ATCG letters for instruction).  We know genetics drives epigenetic changes, and epigenetic changes drive genetic changes, it's a 2 way street. Perhaps biology drives the types of societies we construct but the influences of our ever changing society (new technologies disrupting social behavior like contraception, social media, etc) also influence our biology and behavior and we're more free to adopt whatever we chose.  The people you surround yourself with, exposed to, (as others alluded) and their expectations b]could[/b] shape your core beliefs of how to live and what's masculine/feminine.  So maybe we should be PC to everyone including haters, can't blame'em really, some are products of sad, unfortunate circumstances.

6. Following question 5, maybe it's what the brain is exposed to in terms of hormones/neurotransmitters that drives differences in evolutionary behaviors?  Perhaps the different exposures primarily stemming from different sex chromosome 23 drive "male" and "female" brain.  And outside of sex chromosomes, maybe genomic imprinting (if i understood genomic imprinting correctly)?

7. What is "male-end" or "female-end"?  How was it defined? Maybe the parameters chosen weren't representative of male or female. I think in clinic, how/what you measure is as important as the quantity of the measurement itself.  They said watching talk shows was highly gender-stereotyped, I had no idea?!  Same w/video games.  But did they go deeper and say "types of videogames" in that dataset they picked to analyze?  Maybe we play different games? Are there a lot of female Halo, COD fans, Doom fans out there? How does this field study these topics? Is it considered acceptable?  (considering it's PNAS, I'd probably say yes but idk myself, higher IF journals doesn't always mean good research)

8. What about differences in electrical pathways or signaling patterns.  Structure and layout of the roads could be very similar but maybe how the roads are used are different?

9. "The low degree of internal consistency observed here in the human brain agrees well with studies demonstrating that humans often possess both “masculine” and “feminine” psychological characteristics (that is, personality traits, attitudes, interests, and behaviors that show sex/gender differences)" - this makes sense to me. I always wondered why gays are found in almost any culture (but visibility of course will vary). I thought there was a genetic component. Cause I remember Tyler Clementi and his brother were gay. 2 for 2 for a trait not common..could be chance or something more. But if gays were allowed to be free and roam, wouldn't they die out? Because they can't make kids?  So my point is I think there's some evolutionary advantage for males to have some female traits, and females to have some male traits, otherwise we'd be strictly all one or the other.  Maybe because not all parents live long.  One might die, so it's advantageous to have a single parent that can do both male and female? 

Some are more male/female than others and there's nothing wrong w/that IMO, though I think everyone gets flamed for being different. But even among gays, there's a "male/female" among the same relationship dynamic right? The pitcher and the catcher, ship and its port.  There's probably an evolutionary advantage for this relationship type dynamic otherwise it wouldn't be so persistent and pervasive.  With new technologies and changing environment, that's slowly changing, for better or for worse, it just is. (this is probably just in my head but I've seen power couples/DINKs or more equal relationships, where traditional male/female relationships are discarded and they don't seem to have as many kids or any kids compared to what might be thought of as traditional couple power dynamics, but you can't pin it down to brain/biology, could be other factors like maybe reproduction is no longer high priority cause there's so much to do now than before, other ways to invest time and $$ besides kids that we didn't have before.  I guess I'm thinking of those old, traditional, religious Christian/Muslim/Jewish couples that have like 4-13 kids, the more kids they had, the more likely it seemed they were religious and had traditional beliefs of male/female, but I don't know why or if that's even real difference).  Maybe more equitable more likely you'll die out and won't pass your DNA?

10. The study only looks at people alive today, and in certain cultures (mostly Western I assume).  I'm betting across cultures, it's the same and probably in the past, but pre-civilization, you technically can't rule out differences, though I feel certain the result would've been reproducible.

"most humans possess a mosaic of personality traits, attitudes, interests, and behaviors, some more common in males compared with females, others more common in females compared with males, and still others common in both females and males." - pretty much.  I'm not completely sold on non-dimorphic you mentioned though cause there are limitations (as w/any study) and there's a lot we don't know still.  I don't think brain structure is the defining barrier between male/female but there are strong patterns of behaviors in males/females but it's a pattern, not a law of nature.  Just b/c we don't know yet doesn't mean it's out there.  I guess in the past, it was more clearly defined and oppressive, but now that we're more open and PC, we see more people emerge as "queer?"  That we're not as different as previously thought, but still obviously different.