Author Topic: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?  (Read 523609 times)

BicycleB

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #200 on: June 18, 2020, 01:49:26 PM »
Hi, everyone. Just noticed this thread. Mark me intrigued...never too soon to start scouting my 2028 used car purchase. :)

Fiat 500e, VW e-Golf, Chevy Bolt, Kia Niro Electric, Hyundai Kona Electric, Honda Clarity Electric, or Hyundai Ioniq Electric.

Of these, the Niro and Kona are probably the best bet. They aren't completely hideous, but they are SUVs that start below $40k. They haven't moved the needle significantly. For example, the Niro has sold about 25k total in 2019 (including non-EV), and the Kona about 33k. In general, these are all cars that people do not want to buy. It's great that they exist and provide choice, but they have to be better. Better looking, better size for American car-buyers. Better brand names. The e-Golf actually looks perfect for the few hatchback buyers like me, except for the limited range.


Totally agree about the e-Golf (I know nothing about the range). A family I know bought one last year somehow and are happy with it. Looks very sleek IRL.

For the record, if my cost instinct didn't stop me, I'd LOVE to drive a Rivian for a while. They look spectacularly cool.


JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #201 on: June 18, 2020, 01:58:49 PM »
Why deaths?  Why not just fires?  Isn’t that more related to the claims made?

Yes, but the twitter guy argues that deaths are actually more relevant to "safety" than fires are, because who cares if the car catches fire in a parking lot and insurance replaces it. Which I buy to an extent, although it sure would be nice to not have a car of any stripe catch on fire in my garage.

And while I'm sure Tesla didn't just pull the "11x less likely to catch on fire" figure out of thin air, it also seems unlike to me that they would be 11x less likely to catch on fire AND 2x more likely to kill you. So they are at least loosely related.

Completely unscientifically, it would strike me as likely an ICE car rarely catches fire sitting in a garage turned off, but if a Tesla was sitting there charging in a garage it would be more likely (could be near-zero, but still more likely) to catch fire than an ICE car not charging.

Wouldn’t stop me from getting a Tesla, I still really want one, but the fact pattern doesn’t really make sense. And agree, my primary concern is my car not catching fire in my garage and taking my whole house, to say nothing of the occupants, with it.

Also anacdotal, but I've known two people who's ICE vehicle has caught on fire while parked in a garage turned off. 
One was my roommate in college, who got woken up by the police on a Sunday morning with the question "is that your car on fire across the street?"  - he hadn't driven it about 12 hours.

Seems faulty electrical systems causes this to happen enough where it's not entirely rare.  It seems most brands go through some sort of recall after some of their vehicles catch fire, ofen while parked.  A few (Kia, Hyundai) have even advised owners of certain models NOT to park them in garages due to the danger of collateral damage from their car spontanously combusting.


https://abc7chicago.com/bmw-car-fires-vehicle-what-causes-per-year/5121834/
https://www.clickorlando.com/news/investigators/2020/03/02/if-you-own-one-of-these-cars-vans-or-suvs-dont-park-them-in-a-garage-automaker-says/
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/engine-fires-linked-to-46m-recalled-fords/
https://www.carrcarr.com/recall-millions-of-ford-vehicles-due-to-potential-fire-risk/

My roommate's old neighbor also had their car burn to the ground while parked on the street.

FINate

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #202 on: June 18, 2020, 03:01:44 PM »
For the record, if my cost instinct didn't stop me, I'd LOVE to drive a Rivian for a while. They look spectacularly cool.

Same here. I love the idea, but just can't see myself doing it.

There were a couple of good threads on these forums last year after the Cybertruck reveal which helped me research and process the BEV market for SUVs/trucks/adventure vehicles. Conclusion: BEV just doesn't make sense for this type of vehicle, at least not yet. Far better to keep my 8 year old low-mileage F-150 with truck cap, and get a used BEV car for daily driving.

I almost never drive the truck other than for truck stuff (dump runs, camping/hunting, etc.). It gets somewhat ok MPG for road trips which usually involves camping. With routine maintenance it should be good for a long time, and Fords are cheap to repair.

A used small-ish BEV car, at the right price, would be sweet for daily in-town use. I keep telling myself 2ish years, but we don't drive either car much and DW's 10 year old Toyota still has under 100k miles... it could easily go another 10 years.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2020, 03:03:15 PM by FINate »

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nereo

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #204 on: June 19, 2020, 04:51:10 AM »
I could see this being popular:
https://jalopnik.com/here-is-volkswagens-new-id-4-cross-ev-production-model-1844067856

Two companies I'm interested in seeing what they come up with are VW and Volvo.  Both have pledged >50% of their fleet will be all-electric within a decade (*Volvo by 2025).  Right now both seem to just have dipped their toes in the water (VW more than Volvo, with the eGolf - Volvo's XC40 won't be available here probably for at least 6 months).  I'm guessing we'll see multiple new models unveiled from both in the next couple of years.

sherr

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #205 on: June 19, 2020, 07:35:13 AM »
I could see this being popular:
https://jalopnik.com/here-is-volkswagens-new-id-4-cross-ev-production-model-1844067856

Two companies I'm interested in seeing what they come up with are VW and Volvo.  Both have pledged >50% of their fleet will be all-electric within a decade (*Volvo by 2025).  Right now both seem to just have dipped their toes in the water (VW more than Volvo, with the eGolf - Volvo's XC40 won't be available here probably for at least 6 months).  I'm guessing we'll see multiple new models unveiled from both in the next couple of years.

VW is not just pledging, they are being forced to invest $2 Billion in the US alone in EV infrastructure as part of the settlement for dieselgate. They have to shift hard into EVs in order to make that an investment, not just a loss.

We will definitely see them coming out with more EV models in the coming years.

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #206 on: June 19, 2020, 08:56:32 AM »
I could see this being popular:
https://jalopnik.com/here-is-volkswagens-new-id-4-cross-ev-production-model-1844067856

That thing reminds me of the old AMC Eagle from years ago.

Here's what I wonder a bit about.  I bought a diesel Jeep a few years back.  It was the first production run.  It had a lot of problems.  I told myself, "Self - Always buy a car that has been in production for a few years in the future- OK?"

So - With VW, SAAB, GM and others just getting their feet wet with the electric car thing.  Is there a chance that their new models in the next few years will have some problems?  If one waits a few years, will the reliability be up and the cost down?  I know Chevy, for example, has had the EV-1, Volt, Bolt and some others, but I still think electric vehicles are new to many of these manufacturers.

I made that mistake with a flat screen TV.  I bought one after the first price dip and if I had waited, my money would have gone further.

FINate

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #207 on: June 19, 2020, 10:03:23 AM »
I could see this being popular:
https://jalopnik.com/here-is-volkswagens-new-id-4-cross-ev-production-model-1844067856

That thing reminds me of the old AMC Eagle from years ago.

Here's what I wonder a bit about.  I bought a diesel Jeep a few years back.  It was the first production run.  It had a lot of problems.  I told myself, "Self - Always buy a car that has been in production for a few years in the future- OK?"

So - With VW, SAAB, GM and others just getting their feet wet with the electric car thing.  Is there a chance that their new models in the next few years will have some problems?  If one waits a few years, will the reliability be up and the cost down?  I know Chevy, for example, has had the EV-1, Volt, Bolt and some others, but I still think electric vehicles are new to many of these manufacturers.

I made that mistake with a flat screen TV.  I bought one after the first price dip and if I had waited, my money would have gone further.

Early adopters of new technology always pay a premium. This is why we've decided to wait a few years for the BEV market to ripen: standards will stabilize, battery lifespan and range will improve, prices will come down, the charging network will get fleshed out, and there should be a healthy market of used BEVs to choose from.

But still, I'm conflicted. New technology needs early adopters and their willingness to pay the big bucks to bootstrap the market. We could afford to help in this way, and I was an early adopter earlier in life. Yet I feel like I've experienced that and found I don't really enjoy it, so I'll leave it to folks that enjoy showing off shiny new things and obsessing over the latest tech.

ETA: The ID.4 is interesting. I like that it looks like a "normal" CUV. If it has reasonable specs/price, and if I fit in it (VW seems to fit tall people better than most brands), then it will likely be on our short list in the future.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 10:05:45 AM by FINate »

nereo

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #208 on: June 19, 2020, 11:16:52 AM »
I could see this being popular:
https://jalopnik.com/here-is-volkswagens-new-id-4-cross-ev-production-model-1844067856

That thing reminds me of the old AMC Eagle from years ago.

Here's what I wonder a bit about.  I bought a diesel Jeep a few years back.  It was the first production run.  It had a lot of problems.  I told myself, "Self - Always buy a car that has been in production for a few years in the future- OK?"

So - With VW, SAAB, GM and others just getting their feet wet with the electric car thing.  Is there a chance that their new models in the next few years will have some problems?  If one waits a few years, will the reliability be up and the cost down?  I know Chevy, for example, has had the EV-1, Volt, Bolt and some others, but I still think electric vehicles are new to many of these manufacturers.

I made that mistake with a flat screen TV.  I bought one after the first price dip and if I had waited, my money would have gone further.

Consumer Reports keeps detailed records on several hundred kinds of vehicles and their repair histories.  Anytime a new model comes out or goes through a significant redesign it tends to have worse than average repair history and voluntary recalls.  This is so consistent that CR automatically downgrades the “expected reliability” of any remodel, even when previous years have been very good.

FWIW, within two years of a new model coming out the repair history tends to be as reliable as its going to get.  Currently a bunch of EVs have already been out for several years (though a few have had major remodels).

I’m with you @pecunia - I wouldn’t buy a brand new EV the year it comes out.  That’s true for ICE vehicles as well (though I wouldn’t by a new car regardless.... only energy efficiency rebates and tax credits make buying a new EV sometimes the smarter play...right now)

There are more efficiencies of scale which will almost certainly push the price of EVs down in the future.  In fact, that’s one of the stated reasons WHY the federal tax credit exists in the first place (to increase demand to decrease prices and allow for the development of a broader charging network).

BuffaloStache

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #209 on: October 06, 2020, 04:54:55 PM »
I'm resurrecting this thread because I just found it, and I'm genuinely interested in the topic as well.

My family is looking to replace both of our cars (I know! I can feel the face-punches but we're both members of the clown-commuting world until FI) in the next ~1-3 years. Our hope is to get one ~high mileage (for ICE cars) station wagon, and one electric vehicle.

With all of the EV models on the horizon, do you think it's best if I get the station wagon first, and wait a couple of years before shopping for an EV?

Also, I typically only buy used cars, but am worried about buying used with EVs since you don't know how well the battery was treated (or wasn't), and I worry about neglect/poor maintenance impacting degradation rate as the vehicle gets older. Does anyone have any insight/experience/thoughts on that?

nereo

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #210 on: October 06, 2020, 05:10:14 PM »
I'm resurrecting this thread because I just found it, and I'm genuinely interested in the topic as well.

My family is looking to replace both of our cars (I know! I can feel the face-punches but we're both members of the clown-commuting world until FI) in the next ~1-3 years. Our hope is to get one ~high mileage (for ICE cars) station wagon, and one electric vehicle.

With all of the EV models on the horizon, do you think it's best if I get the station wagon first, and wait a couple of years before shopping for an EV?


We are in a very similar boat to you.  Two car household, both needing replacement in the next 1-3 years (FWIW both are 15+ years old at present).

To be honest, I don’t think see battery technology gains being that significant in the next 24-36 months.  It takes ~5 years to design a brand new model, so current technology is already ‘baked in’ to the rather extensive crop of EVs that will be released in 2022 and 2023 (IIRCt here will be 6+ new models next year alone from a few different manufacturers in the US alone).

Also, battery technology is *already* good enough for the vast majority of households - especially if they have one ICE vehicle.  Battery range is 250+ on essentially all new models, and even charging on household 110 you can top off 40-50 miles of range overnight.  So unless your daily commute is >>50 miles round trip an EV will work just fine on a standard outlet.  If you’ve got an L2 you can comfortably commute 100 miles every day without ever draining the battery.


Also, I typically only buy used cars, but am worried about buying used with EVs since you don't know how well the battery was treated (or wasn't), and I worry about neglect/poor maintenance impacting degradation rate as the vehicle gets older. Does anyone have any insight/experience/thoughts on that?

The federal $7,500 rebate makes for a weird world in the EV used market.  It screws up the depreciation curve, and means that buying new can be about as good as buying a few years removed over the life of the vehicle.  Do your math.
As for battery integrity, heat seems to be the real killer of range, and most (but not all) do a good job of thermal-management.  I’d avoid first/second generation Leafs, particularly if they were registered in a warm climate like TExas or Florida.
Most also have a wealth of information on charging history as well.  If a car was frequently recharged using DC fast chargers that would give me pause. So would a battery that came close to being completely drained on a regular basis.  Ideally I’d want a vehicle that was plugged into regular household 110v each night after a moderate reduction (say going from 100% to 70%).

Others might have different opinions.

scottish

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #211 on: October 06, 2020, 05:33:20 PM »
I was interested to read that the province of Alberta intends to get involved in the hydrogen industry over the coming decade.    I applaud them for trying to diversify away from oil and gas, but I wonder about hydrogen.     There seem to be a lot of challenges around using hydrogen as a fuel.

There are a few (Hyundai, Toyota and Honda) production vehicles that run off of hydrogen.   They all use a fuel cell which generates electricity from hydrogen rather than burning it directly in an engine.    At a high level, the fuel cell would replace the battery in an electric car.    The car could be refueled much more quickly by "pumping hydrogen" into it, rather than recharging at a charging station.   AFAIK they're only available in Hawaii and California.

Anyone here have personal experience with a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle?

sherr

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #212 on: October 06, 2020, 09:25:55 PM »
I do not have any experience with a hydrogen car, but I'll respond anyway. ;)

In my opinion hydrogen cars are DOA. Electric cars are already good enough, and cheaper than hydrogen cars, and safer, and there's already charging stations and power lines everywhere. Hydrogen may have niche uses, but I cannot imagine that it'll overtake electric. Electric cars are the future.

BuffaloStache

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #213 on: October 06, 2020, 09:41:47 PM »
Anyone here have personal experience with a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle?

Not fuel cell, but I was fortunate enough to be interning at a large US government facility back in 2007 when George Bush was still promoting his "Hydrogen Fuel Economy" initiative. Folks from BMW came to the facility and let everyone test drive a gasoline/hydrogen hybrid car that they had made (I think it was a converted BMW 7-series sedan). The car directly injected hydrogen (from a secondary tank in the trunk) into a slightly modified IC engine that also ran off of standard gasoline. There was a button on the steering wheel that switched between gasoline and hydrogen operation modes, and if you pressed it while driving it merely felt like the car was shifting gears (almost no impact to standard driving). Overall I highly enjoyed the experience, and while in Hydrogen mode I didn't notice any differences at all. Let me also restate that it was a high-end BMW, so I probably was going to have enjoyed the experience anyways...

The BMW engineers that were at the event noted that the biggest challenges to adopting Hydrogen for vehicle use wasn't the actual conversion of Hydrogen to usable vehicular energy, but more the infrastructure and logistics issues with pumping it, storing it (both at fuel stations and on the vehicle), and the safety concerns that come from that. This prototype car had a secondary fuel tank in the trunk, and they stated that the capacity of the tank was ~30% less than the volume the tank consumed, because of all of the extra tank walls, safety wrapping, and other features the tank needed to earn a DOT rating. I'm not as emphatic as @sherr in signing off Hydrogen cars, but I think these same challenges exist today.

---
@nereo- thanks for your response to my questions. You advise to 'do your math', but how is that calculation done? Merely a depreciation calculation? FWIW our cars are 14+ years old, so definitely a similar scenario to yours.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2020, 09:45:21 PM by BuffaloStache »

sherr

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #214 on: October 06, 2020, 09:53:54 PM »
With all of the EV models on the horizon, do you think it's best if I get the station wagon first, and wait a couple of years before shopping for an EV?

Also, I typically only buy used cars, but am worried about buying used with EVs since you don't know how well the battery was treated (or wasn't), and I worry about neglect/poor maintenance impacting degradation rate as the vehicle gets older. Does anyone have any insight/experience/thoughts on that?

I have a Tesla Model 3 so that's primarily where my knowledge is centered around (and I love it, I think it's a decade ahead of other new cars experience-wise), but this article and this one may be informative for you.

They show that battery degradation, at least for Teslas, is not a straight line, but rather that you can expect to lose around 5% of your range in the first 50k miles or so, and then another 5% in the next 100-150k miles, and then... maybe not really much more past that. Now I think that Tesla is the leader in the BEV market bar none, so other manufactures might not be quite the same.

Armed with that info though you can look at a used Tesla and it doesn't really matter if it was superchared a lot or the battery was run down to 5% often or any of that jazz, you can simply look at the mileage and the estimated range and have a pretty good feel for where this car currently falls on that curve. If it's significantly worse than average that might give you pause or at least make you want to negotiate a lower price, but if it's average or better then it's probably fine.

Also my experience after owning the car for a couple years is that I don't really worry about any of that stuff any more. "Range anxiety" was a huge thing before I bought the car, but now? I plug it in when it gets low, like < 30%. I have the charge limit set to 80%, unless I'm taking a road trip. And then beyond that I just drive around and don't think about it, and it all just works out. The really nice thing about getting a "level 2" charger installed if you don't already have one is that your car can go from zero to full overnight. That's when you really just stop thinking about it altogether.

The main reason you'd want to wait a couple years before shopping for the EV is price. I expect that the additional competition will drive prices down further, for both new and used. And of course there will be more options available in the new market, if you aren't happy with the existing offerings. But the technology in the cars will probably not be any better than what you can already find in a used Model 3.

sherr

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #215 on: October 06, 2020, 10:17:50 PM »
nereo- thanks for your response to my questions. You advise to 'do your math', but how is that calculation done? Merely a depreciation calculation? FWIW our cars are 14+ years old, so definitely a similar scenario to yours.

I think he simply means to make sure that you can't get a new car for the same price. If you can get a new car for $40k after incentives does it really make sense to buy a 2-year-old car with 50k miles for $38k?

The other complication to consider here is that some manufacturers have already used up the $7.5k federal tax credit (Tesla, GM) and in other cases it varies by car given the size of the battery. You can find the full list here. But that only matters for new, or if you're price-comparing with new, you don't get a tax credit for buying used. Also I think Colorado has an extra $5k incentive, although I don't know much about it. $12.5k off the sticker price can change the math quite a bit on the new vs used calculation.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2020, 09:29:54 AM by sherr »

Chaplin

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #216 on: October 06, 2020, 10:20:06 PM »
I do not have any experience with a hydrogen car, but I'll respond anyway. ;)

In my opinion hydrogen cars are DOA. Electric cars are already good enough, and cheaper than hydrogen cars, and safer, and there's already charging stations and power lines everywhere. Hydrogen may have niche uses, but I cannot imagine that it'll overtake electric. Electric cars are the future.

I agree with sherr on this. I don't have a ton of direct experience, although I did work for Ballard Power Systems for four months back in the early 2000's (they were an early stock market darling in the PEM fuel cell market and made fuel cells for some transit buses in Europe and early prototype Ford and possibly Mercedes cars). Battery vehicles are now very competitive, safer, have charging available everywhere (definitely at varying speeds though), and are somewhat widely available, with a used market. There are so many problems with hydrogen for passenger vehicles that I think that ship has sailed. Speaking of ships...perhaps there's an application for hydrogen there. It does have some very appealing properties, but in the passenger vehicle market they don't come close to making up for the downsides.

Like sherr I also drive a Model 3 and yes, range anxiety is basically non-existent. We still have the gas Subaru, but the numbers so far show that the Model 3 will go about 20,000km in 2020 and the Subaru about 2,500km, so you can see what we prefer. We've done a 2000km road trip and multiple car camping trips with the Model 3, and I could see a Vancouver to Toronto road trip next year as an alternative to flying (my wife FIRE'd a few years ago and I should be following a few months from now).

I would probably be further ahead financially if I had just continued buying decent used cars compared to a new Model 3, but it's 30 years of buying decent used cars that contributed to being able afford the Model 3 and FIREing. The driving experience and the low-hassle ongoing use (no oil changes, low maintenance, and minor repairs done by mobile techs right in my work parking lot rather than leaving the car somewhere) are very nice. Of course, if I start driving instead of flying I might actually break even financially while having the fun ride. For family trips the camping/hotels/meals makes driving costs approach flying, but for a solo trip I can sleep in the car very comfortably (climate control, heating or cooling, can stay on all night avoiding condensation or letting bugs in via opened windows).

So, to try answer the original question, they're already the right choice for some people in some situations and that pool of people will widen quickly over the next five years.

nereo

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #217 on: October 07, 2020, 03:52:19 AM »
nereo- thanks for your response to my questions. You advise to 'do your math', but how is that calculation done? Merely a depreciation calculation? FWIW our cars are 14+ years old, so definitely a similar scenario to yours.

I think he simply means to make sure that you can't get a new car for the same price. If you can get a new car for $40k after incentives does it really make sense to buy a 2-year-old car with 50k miles for $38k?


Yes, in part this.  But when as I’m looking at vehicles I also input things like length of ownership (in our case “until it breaks” is likely, but to be conservative I assume we’ll trade up/out after the car is 10 years old). 
So if I buy a brand new EV with the federal rebate and expect it to last 10 years, how does that compare with a 4 year old used model which might last 6 years? A $30k new car suddenly is competitive with an $18k model that’s 4 years old.  Of course opportunity costs and insurance still matter, but there’s definitely some funkiness going on with normal car depreciation curves.

Not strictly this topic but we’ve been looking heavily at the RAV4 Prime as a potential “best for us” solution.  If you aren’t familiar, it’s a plug-in hybrid similar to the now retired Chevy Volt, with a 52+ mile “electric only” range before a small ICE engine kicks in.  With our driving habits >85% of miles would be electric only, while still giving us a vehicle to make ~monthly trips to our in-laws 300+ miles away without worrying about charging.  And then our second vehicle would be a BEV.  So basically one PHEV and one BEV, and our fuel consumption would go down to a couple dozen gallons each year.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #218 on: October 07, 2020, 09:19:57 AM »
nereo- thanks for your response to my questions. You advise to 'do your math', but how is that calculation done? Merely a depreciation calculation? FWIW our cars are 14+ years old, so definitely a similar scenario to yours.

I think he simply means to make sure that you can't get a new car for the same price. If you can get a new car for $40k after incentives does it really make sense to buy a 2-year-old car with 50k miles for $38k?

The other complication to consider here is that some manufacturers have already used up the $7.5k federal tax credit (Tesla, GM) and in other cases it varies by car given the size of the battery. You can find the full list here. But that only matters for new, or if you're price-comparing with new, you don't get a tax credit for buying used. Also I think Colorado has an extra $5k incentive, although I don't know much about it. $12.5k off the sticker price can chance the math quite a bit on the new vs used calculation.

NJ has a (up to) $5k incentive for (new) EVs as well, and no sales tax on all EVs, which comes out to be about $8k "off" a ~$49k vehicle.  With the incentive, it was about the same cost or slightly cheaper to buy a 2020 Model 3 vs a 2018 with 30-40k miles on it.

BuffaloStache

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #219 on: October 07, 2020, 01:34:33 PM »
Thanks all, I'm really happy I jumped in on this thread. As an update to my original question, I may end up waiting and getting a new(er) ICE vehicle first, and then see how the prices come down (or don't) in the next 2-3 years. Price is a large factor for me since I'm still a long way towards being fully FI. There's lots of good information on used Bolts, Kona EVs, and other choices too!

I went back and re-read the entire thread. There's been some really good discussion here. I find that even though I don't care as much about a car's appearance, I do mostly agree with @neo von retorch  's thoughts (which tends to happen a lot on these forums, we seem to have the same mindset on a lot of things):

...
It's not really about math, though, it's mostly about choice. When I can buy an EV from one of multiple vendors, charge from one of multiple networks, get service from a third party... without those things I'm giving up choice, I'm giving up DIY, etc. I'm not anti-Tesla, just pro-choice.

Except that moreso than most on this thread, I struggle with the thought of ever supporting Tesla as a company. DarkandStormy  scratched the surface and nereo provided some good thoughts, but I'm surprised that this hasn't been brought up more here (especially since this thread has seemingly shifted into a Tesla-centric thread -vs- an EV in general one):

Tesla is not an honest company.
I would lump most of the larger automakers into that category too.  Ford (Firestone Tire Scandal); Toyota (acceleration coverup); Volkswagen ('Diesel-gate"); Audi (acceleration); GM (Ignition-swiches).  Not to mention suppliers such as Takata (airbag-shrapnel).

All of these were known problems with an deliberate coverup, a bunch of deaths, and massive financial settlements...

I'd argue that it seemd to go deeper than that with Tesla. While a little dated, this article does a decent job of summing up the appalling labor practices, disregard for worker well-being, and toxic environment present at Tesla. Not only are the conditions/injury-rates/etc. bad, but they are definitely worse than the auto-industry average. While not directly about Tesla, this article covers one of many indefensible practices that occur regularly at SpaceX & Tesla, that have resulted in numerous lawsuits brought by former/current employees at both companies. Maybe I'm just not educated enough and need to read up on the other large auto companies?

Overall, I actually agree with @sherr that Tesla EVs seem to be years ahead of the nearest competitor. I just hate the idea of supporting and promoting the workplace environment and predatory workplace practices (yes, above and beyond the norm at other automakers) that are allowed to thrive at Tesla. [/endrant]

More than anything I think I'm just annoyed that there is such a large lack of choice when it comes to the EV market. Despite the above I'm not saying I'll never buy a Tesla, just that if I do I'll make the decision with my eyes open and aware of that decision.

sherr

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #220 on: October 07, 2020, 01:58:09 PM »
(especially since this thread has seemingly shifted into a Tesla-centric thread -vs- an EV in general one):

This is simply because - in the US at least - the two are largely synonymous. Tesla is 80% of the US EV market.

More than anything I think I'm just annoyed that there is such a large lack of choice when it comes to the EV market. Despite the above I'm not saying I'll never buy a Tesla, just that if I do I'll make the decision with my eyes open and aware of that decision.

Sure, you do you. I'm certainly not telling you to buy one, they're obviously not the most Mustachian of cars.

I do think that Tesla "suffers" from "heightened attention", which can be both a positive or negative for them. I also do not know how much exactly to weigh those lawsuits vs problems that other manufactures have that you don't hear about. And Musk certainly has some "personality flaws", and like most highly-driven visionaries is probably a mixture of inspiring and miserable to work for.

So I won't argue with you about any of it. For me though, what I wanted was the best EV for my family. And at the time I decided that was the Model 3, and I'm not sure much has changed since then.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #221 on: October 07, 2020, 02:02:23 PM »
To be honest, I'm conflicted myself with regards to Tesla

On one hand, I firmly believe that no person or company has done as much to shift EVs from these largely impractical fringe vehicles only nutjobs owners to practical, desireable and bordering on common.  IMO they did more than federal subsidies or gradually emerging tech ever could.  Tesla's S was the first car that car geeks who didn't give a hoot about the environment wanted to own (or at least drive for a while), and ti finally had a practical range.  They made eye-popping news the way few cars (including ICE) ever do anymore, like when they scored the higehst ever in CR's testing (since downgraded,slightly).  Of course they had all sorts of manufacturing problems, much of their own making.

On the other hand, I have problems with both Musk and the company.  Several times I've found myswelf shouting "good god man, would you just shut up?  Do you not realize how dumb and offensive you sound??".  There's also something positive to be said about a company who's motto is "go fast and break things"... only it tends to result in a lot of collateral damage (from, you know, going fast and breaking stuff... and being encouraged to carry that attitude around in hte workplace).

I still think the S series is eth marque EV and would buy one in a heartbeat if I happened to suddenly become FI a couple times over.  The 3 series is still on my list,  though it has a lot more competition. Does my problems with the company preclude me from supporting the company/  I don't know.  I haven't had to seriously have that talk with mself because I'm not (yet) at the point where I have to make such a decision.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #222 on: October 07, 2020, 02:13:52 PM »
regarding EV choice within the US:
FWIW I'm aware of 10 brand new EV models that are expected to come out over the next ~18 months, excluding those that are uber-luxury and/or super-niche (e.g. the 'Owl' which is expected to have a 7-figure price tag and outrace a ferrari, or the six-figured offerings from Mercedes and Jaguar).

Audi is expected to release a Q4 SUV.  BMW is said to be released an SUV and another sedan (the i4?).  Ford will have an electric F150 and GMC a hummer (ew?).  Both Mazda and Nissan are releasing crossovers, and VW has a pair of new cars and Volvo will (finally? after several delays) release their 'recharge XC40'

Further down the pipe both VW and Volvo have pledged to have an all EV fleet within five years, and I think together they are planning on a combined 10 models in the US market by 2025 (who knows if this will happen).  Subaru is rumored to be working on an EV outback, and Honda is likewise rumored to be making an EV based on the Odyssey minivan.  I'm frankly surprised Honda so far hasn't released anything, or even has anything apparently close to production.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #223 on: October 07, 2020, 03:13:48 PM »
Jumping in here. DH and I bought a 2020 Nissan Leaf earlier this year and have been getting EV's a fair bit of attention in our circles because of it. Most people are surprised it's an EV because it looks like a normal hatchback (thank goodness for the redesign). They're also surprised by the range ("Aren't you worried about running out of charge?!" DH-"Are you worried about running out of gas because I get the same 300ish range that I had in my Mazda") and by the acceleration.

It's "our" car, but DH's daily driver and thus he had primary say on what we got. He seemed dead set on getting a Tesla 3 up until basically the day we bought the Leaf. There's a dealership near us that found a niche selling used Tesla's and always have 3-8 on hand and had a low-mileage Model 3 the day we decided. What ended up being the deciding factor, besides the used Tesla being more expensive than the brand new Nissan before the Federal EV credit, was actually the display. DH initially loved how clean the Tesla dash was with it's tablet-like display and nothing else, then realized just how inconvenient that is when you actually want to do something like change your AC temp while driving.

We've had the Leaf about 6 months and love it. No regrets picking it over the Tesla. The only complaint we have is the backup "sonar" noise that we haven't figured out how to disable.

My car is a 10 year old Volvo with 170k miles, which means it's barely broken in, but once it's past it's prime I will almost definitely buy a plug-in Hybrid. If it were to happen now it would probably be a Prius Prime or a Hyundai Ioniq

sherr

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #224 on: October 07, 2020, 03:20:51 PM »
DH initially loved how clean the Tesla dash was with it's tablet-like display and nothing else, then realized just how inconvenient that is when you actually want to do something like change your AC temp while driving.

It definitely takes some getting used to, and many people dislike it (and that's fine). The one thing I'll say to Tesla's defense is that basically everything you'd actually want to do while driving (manual wiper override, music, AC, navigation, calling someone) can be controlled by voice command.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #225 on: October 07, 2020, 03:57:14 PM »
can be controlled by voice command.

Oh dear god please do not make me talk by myself to control my car 😂 Personally my least favorite way to do anything at all ever is to talk to a non-human (followed somewhat closely by trying to get humans to respond the way I want!)

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #226 on: October 07, 2020, 03:58:35 PM »
DH initially loved how clean the Tesla dash was with it's tablet-like display and nothing else, then realized just how inconvenient that is when you actually want to do something like change your AC temp while driving.

It definitely takes some getting used to, and many people dislike it (and that's fine). The one thing I'll say to Tesla's defense is that basically everything you'd actually want to do while driving (manual wiper override, music, AC, navigation, calling someone) can be controlled by voice command.

I can't remember the last time I've changed the temperature in any of my cars -- with automatic climate control, I generally set it to 71-72 and exceedingly rarely touch it again.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #227 on: October 07, 2020, 04:09:53 PM »
can be controlled by voice command.

Oh dear god please do not make me talk by myself to control my car 😂 Personally my least favorite way to do anything at all ever is to talk to a non-human (followed somewhat closely by trying to get humans to respond the way I want!)
Hahaha! I am with you 100%

Though I will admit, I had a car with bluetooth capabilities for almost 3 years before I actually got around to connecting my phone to it because I felt I wouldn't like it. Then once I set it up I was in love and have always set it up since then

DH initially loved how clean the Tesla dash was with it's tablet-like display and nothing else, then realized just how inconvenient that is when you actually want to do something like change your AC temp while driving.

It definitely takes some getting used to, and many people dislike it (and that's fine). The one thing I'll say to Tesla's defense is that basically everything you'd actually want to do while driving (manual wiper override, music, AC, navigation, calling someone) can be controlled by voice command.

I can't remember the last time I've changed the temperature in any of my cars -- with automatic climate control, I generally set it to 71-72 and exceedingly rarely touch it again.
I tweak mine within a few degrees regularly. And Hubs and I switch cars often and have very different ideas of what is comfortable.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #228 on: October 07, 2020, 04:37:03 PM »
Pfttt...   you people with your climate control systems.  Mine ('05 Honda) broke about four years ago.  What's the cabin temperature?  About what it is outside the cabin...


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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #229 on: October 07, 2020, 04:50:13 PM »
can be controlled by voice command.

Oh dear god please do not make me talk by myself to control my car 😂 Personally my least favorite way to do anything at all ever is to talk to a non-human (followed somewhat closely by trying to get humans to respond the way I want!)

Fair, although it's probably the least-bad system I've ever dealt with. There's no back-and-forth, no conversation. You push a button on the steering wheel to let it know you want something, it beeps to let you know it's listening, you tell it to do something, and it does it. And because it's such a limited set of commands it's very good at actually deciphering what you're saying.

I tweak mine within a few degrees regularly. And Hubs and I switch cars often and have very different ideas of what is comfortable.

The car also remembers where you had set the AC to as part of your driver profile, and automatically switches to it when someone with your phone in their pocket opens the door (along with seat / mirror positions and other car settings).

Tesla has made as much as possible automatic.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #230 on: October 07, 2020, 04:56:33 PM »
Pfttt...   you people with your climate control systems.  Mine ('05 Honda) broke about four years ago.  What's the cabin temperature?  About what it is outside the cabin...

You must live up north because if you didn't, it'd be about 40 degrees higher than what it is outside the cabin :P

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #231 on: October 08, 2020, 06:33:31 AM »
My car is a 10 year old Volvo with 170k miles, which means it's barely broken in, but once it's past it's prime I will almost definitely buy a plug-in Hybrid. If it were to happen now it would probably be a Prius Prime or a Hyundai Ioniq

These are my top candidates too!  I have a Honda Fit which I will probably gift to my parents since their cars are getting up there in age.  I've started to see a couple more Ioniqs out there but they are still pretty scarce on the ground.  I like the mileage of the Ioniq, but am leaning a bit more toward the Prius Prime since the Prius has a longer track record of reliability

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #232 on: October 08, 2020, 06:42:15 AM »
Pfttt...   you people with your climate control systems.  Mine ('05 Honda) broke about four years ago.  What's the cabin temperature?  About what it is outside the cabin...

You must live up north because if you didn't, it'd be about 40 degrees higher than what it is outside the cabin :P

The trick is to drive fast with the windows open.  Makes for an interesting ride during thunderstorms... j/k

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #233 on: October 08, 2020, 06:47:00 AM »
My car is a 10 year old Volvo with 170k miles, which means it's barely broken in, but once it's past it's prime I will almost definitely buy a plug-in Hybrid. If it were to happen now it would probably be a Prius Prime or a Hyundai Ioniq

These are my top candidates too!  I have a Honda Fit which I will probably gift to my parents since their cars are getting up there in age.  I've started to see a couple more Ioniqs out there but they are still pretty scarce on the ground.  I like the mileage of the Ioniq, but am leaning a bit more toward the Prius Prime since the Prius has a longer track record of reliability

What frustrates me about the Prius Prime is the electric-only range of 25mi.  In our own personal circumstances that would have us relying on the ICE generator more than I'd like.  That's why we're looking at the Rav4 Prime, though it's a completely different car and $10k more...

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #234 on: October 08, 2020, 08:34:11 AM »
My employer has five Leafs now and I've been heavily involved with the purchase of them.

FWIW we recently bought a used Nissan Leaf 40 kwh (150 mile range) for ~$21K from CarMax. It was one year old and had 10K miles on it. Spotless inside and out. Don't know if you could do better anywhere else haggling hard. 

We also have two 62KWH Leafs in our little fleet. This is a nice car. The car with the smaller battery is fine but the larger battery makes the car more versatile and presumably could make the battery last longer b/c daily use uses a smaller percentage of the battery's capacity. Also this car gets the 214HP motor.

Aircooled battery: under normal use even on hot days the battery temp stays in the middle of the gauge. However fast charging on a ~93F+ really heat saturates the battery and it stays hot for a long time. I don't think I'd fast charge a Leaf I personally owned on a hot day unless perhaps I was immediately going on the interstate where there was good airflow to cool it. 

The Leaf model does not have many years left supposedly. Next year Nissan releases the Airya with a watercooled battery.

https://www.nissanusa.com/ariya.html

Our next car will be electric. I am perfectly pleased with the 62KWH Leaf but would not buy without looking at the Bolt and the Hyundai/Kia twins.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #235 on: October 08, 2020, 09:08:03 AM »
My car is a 10 year old Volvo with 170k miles, which means it's barely broken in, but once it's past it's prime I will almost definitely buy a plug-in Hybrid. If it were to happen now it would probably be a Prius Prime or a Hyundai Ioniq

These are my top candidates too!  I have a Honda Fit which I will probably gift to my parents since their cars are getting up there in age.  I've started to see a couple more Ioniqs out there but they are still pretty scarce on the ground.  I like the mileage of the Ioniq, but am leaning a bit more toward the Prius Prime since the Prius has a longer track record of reliability

What frustrates me about the Prius Prime is the electric-only range of 25mi.  In our own personal circumstances that would have us relying on the ICE generator more than I'd like.  That's why we're looking at the Rav4 Prime, though it's a completely different car and $10k more...

25 miles is pretty low, yes, but it would work pretty well for me since I work from home and either walk around town or take mostly shorter drives.  So with this range I would probably only have to fill up once every couple of months...maybe longer -- it would be interesting to see how long I could go between gas fill ups.  We have another regular fuel-efficient vehicle that we'd probably take on longer road-trips/weekend drives.

sherr

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #236 on: October 08, 2020, 09:15:48 AM »
My car is a 10 year old Volvo with 170k miles, which means it's barely broken in, but once it's past it's prime I will almost definitely buy a plug-in Hybrid. If it were to happen now it would probably be a Prius Prime or a Hyundai Ioniq

These are my top candidates too!  I have a Honda Fit which I will probably gift to my parents since their cars are getting up there in age.  I've started to see a couple more Ioniqs out there but they are still pretty scarce on the ground.  I like the mileage of the Ioniq, but am leaning a bit more toward the Prius Prime since the Prius has a longer track record of reliability

What frustrates me about the Prius Prime is the electric-only range of 25mi.  In our own personal circumstances that would have us relying on the ICE generator more than I'd like.  That's why we're looking at the Rav4 Prime, though it's a completely different car and $10k more...

25 miles is pretty low, yes, but it would work pretty well for me since I work from home and either walk around town or take mostly shorter drives.  So with this range I would probably only have to fill up once every couple of months...maybe longer -- it would be interesting to see how long I could go between gas fill ups.  We have another regular fuel-efficient vehicle that we'd probably take on longer road-trips/weekend drives.

The other downside to a small-battery PHEV is that you have to plug it in all the time if you want to actually use the battery, which I personally would find very annoying.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #237 on: October 08, 2020, 09:17:57 AM »
^^^ plugging it in all the time isn't a problem for me since I'm home during the day, though.  If anyone has a prius prime or vehicle of similar range I'd be interested to hear their experience.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #238 on: October 08, 2020, 09:31:12 AM »

The other downside to a small-battery PHEV is that you have to plug it in all the time if you want to actually use the battery, which I personally would find very annoying.
For me, the routine is just to plug the car in every night regardless.  It becomes routine, habit.  "When I sleep, the car charges".  Each overnight on charge on 110v gives 40-50 miles of range (assuming the battery is large enough to accomodate that), which is more than my average daily driving.

Regardless, either approach is a giant leap up from using a standard ICE vehicle.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #239 on: October 08, 2020, 09:36:07 AM »

The other downside to a small-battery PHEV is that you have to plug it in all the time if you want to actually use the battery, which I personally would find very annoying.
For me, the routine is just to plug the car in every night regardless.  It becomes routine, habit.  "When I sleep, the car charges".  Each overnight on charge on 110v gives 40-50 miles of range (assuming the battery is large enough to accomodate that), which is more than my average daily driving.

Regardless, either approach is a giant leap up from using a standard ICE vehicle.
It initially seems like it would be annoying compared to filling it up once a week, but the reality will probably be much more like Nereo said; it just becomes habit/something you do like closing the garage door after parking or charging your phone at night

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #240 on: October 08, 2020, 10:22:59 AM »
Takes seconds when you arrive at home.

Far less irritating than to stand in a gas station lot in all weather that may or may not have well kept equipment, which may or may not have credit card skimmers, etc.

Don't get me wrong, an EV still isn't the vehicle I'd choose to drive long distances to the beach but - it can be done with some planning. Or pick a Tesla. I was very impressed with the Tesla software demonstrated to me by one owner.

Edited: left out small word that completely changes my statement (than)
« Last Edit: October 08, 2020, 03:11:47 PM by Just Joe »

Chris22

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #241 on: October 08, 2020, 11:42:22 AM »
We’re at our cabin this weekend in northern WI, and just for fun I plotted our trip with Tesla’s route finder using Superchargers.

There is one (1) Supercharger ~halfway, in Oshkosh, between our home in Chicagoland and our cabin.  The distance is about 325-350 miles.  There are superchargers close to the IL/WI border, but that leaves a looong slog with no coverage, meaning we’d be cutting it too close for my liking, especially in the winter (we snowmobile up here in the wintertime).  I also don’t see many non-Tesla chargers on Tesla’s map either on our route in the middle of the state.

For me, that one Supercharger might be OK on a weekend like this, where there was almost no traffic coming up last night, but on a holiday weekend like 4th of July, or Labor Day, or President’s Day when we usually come up?  Forget it.  That Supercharger will be backed up like crazy.

For us, until either A) Superchargers/quick chargers are wider spread and proven reliable, or B) EVs have reliable 400+ mile range in even freezing cold weather, we are unlikely to buy one.  We’re an edge case to some extent, because of the cabin, but on the other hand, plenty of Chicago-area folk have places up north, and the same situation in other metro areas with second homes several hundred miles away.  And my wife and I frequently come up here separately depending on work schedules, so having one EV and one gas car isn’t necessarily a good solution for us either.

If I could afford that new Tesla Plaid with 520 miles of range and 0-60 <2s I’d buy it tomorrow, but sadly, $160k is out of my reach.  But if it’s $60k in 5 years?  Absolutely.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #242 on: October 08, 2020, 03:16:03 PM »
You left out the part where you could install ~$200 worth of circuit breaker, outlet, cable, and cover and have a 30 or 50 AMP outlet that you can charge from any time the car is not in use.

A Tesla owner showed me the adapter he has for charging from a 220V outlet in a pinch. Not a fast way to charge but overnight it makes a difference.

JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #243 on: October 08, 2020, 04:49:58 PM »
You left out the part where you could install ~$200 worth of circuit breaker, outlet, cable, and cover and have a 30 or 50 AMP outlet that you can charge from any time the car is not in use.

A Tesla owner showed me the adapter he has for charging from a 220V outlet in a pinch. Not a fast way to charge but overnight it makes a difference.

It's not all that slow, though - the charger that comes with the car is capable of 32 amps at 240v, for ~30 miles of range an hour as opposed to the ~4 miles of range per hour from a traditional outlet.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #244 on: October 08, 2020, 05:45:41 PM »
I don't even think about plugging in when I get home.  But man...driving by a gas station when it snow/raining/windy...I do not miss that at all.  Even today, it was just windy with some rain and good chill, I was happy to pull into my garage and plug in the trickle charge....

We only use our Level 2 charger if we need a fast top up. 

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #245 on: October 08, 2020, 06:47:41 PM »
Is it better for the life of the batteries to trickle charge?  I'd guess there would be less heat.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #246 on: October 08, 2020, 07:16:34 PM »
Is it better for the life of the batteries to trickle charge?  I'd guess there would be less heat.
I don't think we drive our leaf enough to find out, however that's what we're doing. Bought the 2014 Leaf about 1 year ago, we've gone from 11 bars to 10 in that time. Love the car, and our other car has range for road-trips and whatnot so it meets our needs perfectly. Well our pre-pandemic needs anyway - almost never both need to be anywhere outside our home at the same time since March now.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #247 on: October 08, 2020, 07:29:39 PM »
You left out the part where you could install ~$200 worth of circuit breaker, outlet, cable, and cover and have a 30 or 50 AMP outlet that you can charge from any time the car is not in use.

A Tesla owner showed me the adapter he has for charging from a 220V outlet in a pinch. Not a fast way to charge but overnight it makes a difference.

Me?  How does that help me take a 350+ mile trip every month or so?

sherr

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #248 on: October 08, 2020, 09:10:28 PM »
Is it better for the life of the batteries to trickle charge?  I'd guess there would be less heat.

For Level 2, aka the rough equivalent of a clothes dryer, aka 0-100% overnight, no it makes no difference. For Level 3, aka the Tesla Superchargers or the 300kw DC Fast Chargers that they have in Europe that might eventually come to the US, aka 0-100% in an hour? Maaaaaybe, if you use them all the time, but it's not conclusive.

Tesla's advice is to use them when you need them and don't worry about it, and that seems to work out pretty well. Remember these are not simple AA batteries, the power packs in cars are actually very sophisticated and include thermal management systems (well, mostly). And the cars/chargers communicate with each other to slow down the charge then the car can't take it anymore (aka when the battery is > 80% full).

I'll throw an asterisk on there though for dandarc though, because that may be different for Leafs or similar. Leafs notoriously don't have a thermal management system, and at the 2014 model's range of 75 miles it's a comparatively smaller battery which can handle a comparatively smaller rate of charge.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2020, 09:32:56 PM by sherr »

sherr

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #249 on: October 08, 2020, 09:23:38 PM »
You left out the part where you could install ~$200 worth of circuit breaker, outlet, cable, and cover and have a 30 or 50 AMP outlet that you can charge from any time the car is not in use.

A Tesla owner showed me the adapter he has for charging from a 220V outlet in a pinch. Not a fast way to charge but overnight it makes a difference.

Me?  How does that help me take a 350+ mile trip every month or so?

You said that you had a supercharger at the halfway point though right?

One thing that gas-only drivers don't intuitively "get" is that most of your charging you do at home/destinations, not at a "gas station". So you start every road trip with a "full tank", and it's okay if you get to your destination with only a few percent left because you can charge there too.

So theoretically - assuming you weren't confident that your car could make it in one charge - your trip would look like:
1) Drive 2-2.5 hours to the supercharger.
2) Stop to pee or maybe buy a snack, of course plugging your car in before you do.
3) By the time you're back your car has charged ~10-maybe-20%, which is of course nowhere near close to full, but it's enough to get you to the cabin.
4) Get to the cabin with a low battery, plug it in and charge it back up. If you have the 220V outlet it'll be full by morning. Repeat for return trip.

This is true of any car with > 300 mile range and Level 3 chargers available, not just Teslas.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2020, 09:43:04 PM by sherr »