Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[caracarn]

I agree that $50k is very expensive.  I also remember when 3 years was the standard length of a car loan.  Now it seems to be 5 years.

I believe 6 years is more common now.
https://www.lendingtree.com/auto/debt-statistics/#Averageautoloanterms

Having a couple folks in our family that have worked for dealerships the common loans these days at 7-9 years.  5 years was gone a LONG time ago.

Back when they had 0% interest loans it made sense to get the longest loan period you possibly could.  You would be nuts not to, as long as the sales price was fair.

Yes but most people are not getting 0% loans and they take the longest period possible to get the lowest payment.   I've got family members who get a new car ever 2-3 years and they show how financially savvy they are because their monthly payment dropped AND they have a new care, but it's because they went from a 7 year to a 9 year loan and then will do the same thing in 2-3 years again. 

[dandarc]

The more I read about all the BS there is with charging these electric cars on trips, the more I think these range extender motors are attractive.  If Mazda could put a small rotary engine helper in my future electric car, it could save me a big hassle some day.  It would also mean less battery to haul around.  Sure it's not quite as environmentally friendly, but I've never been one to stay up nights worrying about my carbon footprint.

What you are describing is a PHEV. They can be wonderful (I own one, as do my parents), and I highly recommend them to people - especially those that can’t accept the current charging infrastructure differences. For most people it will result in an 80-90% reduction in fuel consumption, and PHEVs have a much lower carbon footprint than ICE vehicles, only being surpassed by BEVs during the second half of their life expectancies.

Plus with the plug-in hybrid, the motor can power the vehicle directly when needed. The smaller that rotary "just to charge the battery" motor is, the less the chance it can generate electricity fast enough to keep the car performance more or less normal when the battery is low enough you really need the extra range.

I don't think they even build cars with a motor so weak it can't get your car to 100km/h / 70 miles. Okay, maybe those f*** huge F-150&Co actually need 50PS to do that with their air resistance and weight, but still.

The old air cooled VW 1200 CC engines got to 60 miles / hour (96 km /hour).  I would think if you had a one liter engine with a turbo it would work just fine.  Here's the other thing to consider.  It doesn't run as many hours as a "normal" car.   The battery will do the job for the small trips which make up the bulk of one's travel.  Even with that turbo, the engine should last a long time.

That does look like a good compromise.  I'm going on 4 years with my car and have about 16,000 miles on it so I suspect the electric car market will be mature before I need another vehicle.

For another data-point, my parent's Volt recently passed 120,000 miles, but had fewer than 17,000 miles on the engine during that timeframe. On average the engine was powering the car for less than 50 miles each week, despite the car being driven pretty extensively.  They bought fuel less than once per month.

When referring to potentially degraded performance,

I was thinking of a "range extender" as detailed here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_extender#BMW_i3 which has a motorcycle engine that BMW says can produce 25kW power and a 2 gallon tank - enough to maybe get an extra 50 miles of range vs. the version without the range extender. Actually, the tank in the US is smaller than in Europe specifically to meet the "range-extended BEV" definition - larger tank and it becomes a plug-in-hybrid.

Vs. the Chevy Volt which is, by standard definitions, a plug-in hybrid vehicle. Its gas motor is over twice the size, generating over twice the power. And has a 9-gallon tank. Which is clearly a better choice vs. the very small motor if the concern is unable to charge sufficiently on a road trip.

[Just Joe]

The more I read about all the BS there is with charging these electric cars on trips, the more I think these range extender motors are attractive.  If Mazda could put a small rotary engine helper in my future electric car, it could save me a big hassle some day.  It would also mean less battery to haul around.  Sure it's not quite as environmentally friendly, but I've never been one to stay up nights worrying about my carbon footprint.

What you are describing is a PHEV. They can be wonderful (I own one, as do my parents), and I highly recommend them to people - especially those that can’t accept the current charging infrastructure differences. For most people it will result in an 80-90% reduction in fuel consumption, and PHEVs have a much lower carbon footprint than ICE vehicles, only being surpassed by BEVs during the second half of their life expectancies.

Plus with the plug-in hybrid, the motor can power the vehicle directly when needed. The smaller that rotary "just to charge the battery" motor is, the less the chance it can generate electricity fast enough to keep the car performance more or less normal when the battery is low enough you really need the extra range.

I don't think they even build cars with a motor so weak it can't get your car to 100km/h / 70 miles. Okay, maybe those f*** huge F-150&Co actually need 50PS to do that with their air resistance and weight, but still.

The BMW i3 REX (range extender) has a 650cc motorcycle engine. 33HP output I believe I read. The one I drove ~150 miles was totally capable of running 100 kph with the air conditioner on once the battery was depleted. 

Genius design. A little odd looking but mechanically/electrically very well done.

[Tyson]

Holy crap, this is the largest EV ever made - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TxMeHRq1mk

[mizzourah2006]

We just made the switch. Someone hit me and totaled my car, so I was in a position where I needed a new car. During the time I started looking more closely at hybrid and BEV/PHEV options and we noticed that Kia had come out with a Sorento PHEV. My wife had been looking for a fuel efficient mid-size SUV with a third row to fit kids in as we often take neighbor kids to school, practices, etc. and we were planning to just wait a few more years until BEV versions of those came to market, but decided that the PHEV would meet our needs if our other car was already a BEV.

So, I ended up getting a Model Y and we found a year old Kia Sorento PHEV near us, so we got that for my wife. So far it has been great. The PHEV is perfect for her daily commutes that range from 12 to about 30 miles depending on if the kids have sports after school. It was also perfect for us as we had to drive 200 miles to get the Model Y, after the 35 miles were gone it just switched to hybrid mode, so we didn't have to worry about trying to find a non Supercharger charging station for a day long up and back trip.

So in a matter of 3 weeks we went from two older ICE cars with pretty poor gas mileage to a BEV and a PHEV and so far so good.

[EvenSteven]

We just made the switch. Someone hit me and totaled my car, so I was in a position where I needed a new car. During the time I started looking more closely at hybrid and BEV/PHEV options and we noticed that Kia had come out with a Sorento PHEV. My wife had been looking for a fuel efficient mid-size SUV with a third row to fit kids in as we often take neighbor kids to school, practices, etc. and we were planning to just wait a few more years until BEV versions of those came to market, but decided that the PHEV would meet our needs if our other car was already a BEV.

So, I ended up getting a Model Y and we found a year old Kia Sorento PHEV near us, so we got that for my wife. So far it has been great. The PHEV is perfect for her daily commutes that range from 12 to about 30 miles depending on if the kids have sports after school. It was also perfect for us as we had to drive 200 miles to get the Model Y, after the 35 miles were gone it just switched to hybrid mode, so we didn't have to worry about trying to find a non Supercharger charging station for a day long up and back trip.

So in a matter of 3 weeks we went from two older ICE cars with pretty poor gas mileage to a BEV and a PHEV and so far so good.

Nice! We did something similar, and got a PHEV minivan (pacifica) about 3 months ago. So far so good. About half a tank of gas used, and all charging done for free at work. The PHEV with ~30 miles on a charge has been ample for regular daily driving for my use case.

[jinga nation]

And the charging plug adoption/convergence continues:
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/09/honda-is-the-latest-automaker-to-switch-ev-charging-plugs/

It won't be on the 2024 Prologue, which gets CCS. But model year 2025 gets NACS.

Also, interesting, from Ford:
https://electrek.co/2023/09/07/ford-mustang-mach-e-rally-sporty-off-road-ready-electric-pony/
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/09/ford-gives-an-ev-some-dirt-road-skills-with-new-mustang-mach-e-rally/
No roll-cage though, not an option. Rally trim, not a real rally car.

[Just Joe]

Surely like that ZDX. Don't want to pay for it but like it. Could be a viable replacement for our MDX someday. Not planning to buy any cars that expensive though.

[BuffaloStache]

...
The BMW i3 REX (range extender) has a 650cc motorcycle engine. 33HP output I believe I read. The one I drove ~150 miles was totally capable of running 100 kph with the air conditioner on once the battery was depleted. 

Genius design. A little odd looking but mechanically/electrically very well done.

To this day I still think that car was underrated. I'd love to see a re-fresh of the design using more modern battery designs/implemented lessons learned BMW has from this + the iX and their other EVs. It was a great little EV, but lacked the range to really make it a truly amazing option.

[Just Joe]

To this day I still think that car was underrated. I'd love to see a re-fresh of the design using more modern battery designs/implemented lessons learned BMW has from this + the iX and their other EVs. It was a great little EV, but lacked the range to really make it a truly amazing option.

I'd love to see a version of that driveline in a number of vehicles. Instead of a PHEV with a big engine and small EV package, do a i3 REX design with a big EV package and a tiny engine to help it along at the end of the battery range.

Not sure how well that would scale to a camper van - but that would be a good application. Would love to silently wander through the mountains and have the range extender to help if we exceeded the battery charge. Or help recharge if we were camping rough.

[alsoknownasDean]

There was an EV show here last weekend and I had a look at the Ora hatchback...I must say whilst the styling is awkward, the quality seemed decent enough. I'm keen on the MG4 as my next car and they start from about $US25K plus onroads for the 51kWh version.

I suspect Chinese brand cars may be a difficult sell Stateside, but it seems that most of the less-expensive EVs are coming from China.

Has fuel spiked up in price there recently? No doubt that any sudden increase in the price of fuel gets people to consider EVs.

I filled up my car today, 450km of fuel was $A105. In a hybrid Corolla it'd be about $40 for the same distance, and an EV using 20kWh/100km would be about $67 using entirely fast charging, $35 for grid charging and $17 if using rooftop solar (most of which is the 2.8c/km road user charge in this state that applies to EVs).

For now the answer to a $300 per month fuel bill isn't an $800 per month car payment, but once the current car is at end of life it'll get replaced by an EV.

[AlanStache]

Has fuel spiked up in price there recently? No doubt that any sudden increase in the price of fuel gets people to consider EVs.

Fuel prices will not spike in the US until a bit before our presidential election in a year.  Cant have those hippie leftist sort of almost doing things to reduce Global Warming at the expense of a few billionaires profits. 

[nereo]

Has fuel spiked up in price there recently? No doubt that any sudden increase in the price of fuel gets people to consider EVs.

Fuel prices will not spike in the US until a bit before our presidential election in a year.  Cant have those hippie leftist sort of almost doing things to reduce Global Warming at the expense of a few billionaires profits.

Curious why you think fuel prices will pike around this time next year…

[AlanStache]

Has fuel spiked up in price there recently? No doubt that any sudden increase in the price of fuel gets people to consider EVs.

Fuel prices will not spike in the US until a bit before our presidential election in a year.  Cant have those hippie leftist sort of almost doing things to reduce Global Warming at the expense of a few billionaires profits.

Curious why you think fuel prices will pike around this time next year…

"I did that" Joe Biden stickers on gas pumps when prices went up a bit ago.  Lots of the country some how thinks the president controls gas prices and some Jewish space lazar is coming for them so they need a freedom machine aka F150's to continue being rugged individualists just like all the other guys in their office park.  And Joe Biden not keeping gas prices low is proof that he does not want 'real Americans' to be free.  So they will vote R and the R's being slightly less included to address GW or slightly more inclined to preserve entrenched carbon based energy suppliers will push back on whatever environmental policies they can and when gas goes down 0.4$/gal they will declare victory and say what a bad man Biden was.  But maybe I am just a bit syndical. 

[pecunia]

Has fuel spiked up in price there recently? No doubt that any sudden increase in the price of fuel gets people to consider EVs.

Fuel prices will not spike in the US until a bit before our presidential election in a year.  Cant have those hippie leftist sort of almost doing things to reduce Global Warming at the expense of a few billionaires profits.

Curious why you think fuel prices will pike around this time next year…

"I did that" Joe Biden stickers on gas pumps when prices went up a bit ago.  Lots of the country some how thinks the president controls gas prices and some Jewish space lazar is coming for them so they need a freedom machine aka F150's to continue being rugged individualists just like all the other guys in their office park.  And Joe Biden not keeping gas prices low is proof that he does not want 'real Americans' to be free.  So they will vote R and the R's being slightly less included to address GW or slightly more inclined to preserve entrenched carbon based energy suppliers will push back on whatever environmental policies they can and when gas goes down 0.4$/gal they will declare victory and say what a bad man Biden was.  But maybe I am just a bit syndical.

As the presidential election gets closer it will be interesting to hear what the Republican message will be.  Frankly, I haven't seen them doing a lot for the common citizen.   There's always the noise about cutting taxes and they can cherry pick Federal programs that seem to be a waste of money. The abortion thing won't go well for them.  A few reminders how Republicans invaded the Capital won't help them a bit.  Every one of the candidates is not hot to trot on the Climate Change issue.

This could be the year where a third party candidate emerges like Ross Perot did a few years back. This time - The third party candidate could win

[AlanStache]

...
As the presidential election gets closer it will be interesting to hear what the Republican message will be.  Frankly, I haven't seen them doing a lot for the common citizen.   There's always the noise about cutting taxes and they can cherry pick Federal programs that seem to be a waste of money. The abortion thing won't go well for them.  A few reminders how Republicans invaded the Capital won't help them a bit.  Every one of the candidates is not hot to trot on the Climate Change issue.

This could be the year where a third party candidate emerges like Ross Perot did a few years back. This time - The third party candidate could win

I think tax brakes for billionaires are aspirational for some people. 

[Just Joe]

I suspect Chinese brand cars may be a difficult sell Stateside, but it seems that most of the less-expensive EVs are coming from China.

I've seen an Ora. It looks like a real nice car although the one I saw - I think it was the Ora Ballet Cat - either VW will complain it looks too much like new Beetle or Americans will reject it b/c its styling isn't "manly" enough.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/fake-chinese-vw-beetle-has-a-new-name-ora-ballet-cat-167453.html

Everything here in 2023 either apparently needs to look like:
 - a brawny pickup truck or SUV
 - high-luxury SUV, no wagons
 - or it needs to look like a fast car - muscle or exotic supercar.

Does anyone in the USA think the American government would allow a Chinese car to be sold here? I mean Volvo is owned by a Chinese company, but I guess they are grandfathered in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geely

I half think all this "Chinese trade war" we see in the news is really about protecting the American car brands. So much of our other brands are already made in China. Its why there will always be hurdles to buying import cars in the USA. It doesn't meet our safety standards or our air pollution standards or our lighting standards or some other arcane rule. Meanwhile that guy over there is riding a motorcycle with no safety or driving a Jeep with no top or doors with all sorts of aftermarket lighting strapped to it. But that's okay.

Americans can't have anything but luxury European brands, can't have Chinese brand cars, can't have many of the everyday JDM brand/models. Land of the free right?

Had a short conversation the other day with a fellow who was complaining about how all the Chinese goods were absolute junk. He was imagining the cheapest Chinese made thing he'd bought and then painted everything made there with the same broad brush assumptions. I reminded him of how many of the expensive things he owns are made in China or Taiwan. He apparently doesn't cope well with facts.

[Tyson]

If being an American brand, and actually MADE in America, is super important, I wonder why more people on the right aren't fans of Tesla.  The 4 models from Tesla are THE MOST American made cars, taking up the top 4 spots:

https://www.cars.com/american-made-index/

Not only that, they are based out of Texas and their CEO is some kind of Libertarian. 

[Just Joe]

True! My problem with Tesla is Musk. ;)

Also, I need to look closer at their build quality. I know their batteries are good. I've seen a YT video made by an independent shop that specializes in EV repairs - mostly Tesla since they are the most popular. There is a water seal in the motor that fails flooding the motor with coolant sometimes. There were other things they talked about too.

As I keep cars 20+ years in some cases, I don't want to be faced with multi-thousand dollar repairs at some random moment b/c of an engineering lapse in a car which has little aftermarket parts supply. Most cars that I like to buy have driveline (platform) designs that are not new. The Tesla S might be one such car now.

[Tyson]

I bought a Model Y and the build quality is pretty impressive on my car.  Zero issues externally and internally the only issue is some noise from panels vibrating when driving over rough roads (which Tesla is in the process of fixing for me, under warranty). 

I wasn't planning on buying a car at all as my old Acura MDX (a 2007 model) was doing just fine and I was planning to drive it for at least 2 or 3 more years.  But I had an accident and totaled it.  So, needed a car and the used car market was ridiculously expensive (most used cars were 70 to 80% of the price of a new car back in July).  Anyway, bought an EV because I realized that whatever car I bought would be my car for the next 10 years and I needed really need to cut the gasoline use NOW rather than 10 years from now. 

So, build quality on the on the newer Teslas is pretty impressive - at least as good as my old Acura (although not quite as good as BMW/Mercedes/Porsche). 

[mizzourah2006]

I bought a Model Y and the build quality is pretty impressive on my car.  Zero issues externally and internally the only issue is some noise from panels vibrating when driving over rough roads (which Tesla is in the process of fixing for me, under warranty). 

I wasn't planning on buying a car at all as my old Acura MDX (a 2007 model) was doing just fine and I was planning to drive it for at least 2 or 3 more years.  But I had an accident and totaled it.  So, needed a car and the used car market was ridiculously expensive (most used cars were 70 to 80% of the price of a new car back in July).  Anyway, bought an EV because I realized that whatever car I bought would be my car for the next 10 years and I needed really need to cut the gasoline use NOW rather than 10 years from now. 

So, build quality on the on the newer Teslas is pretty impressive - at least as good as my old Acura (although not quite as good as BMW/Mercedes/Porsche).

Bolded is exactly what happened to me and I also bought a Model Y. The used market was so insane I got $31k for my 10 year old truck that I originally paid $45k for in 2013. I really like it so far. I haven't seen any issues with mine also rides a lot smoother than I expected given all the negative reviews on how rough it was, but then again I came from a truck.

[GuitarStv]

I bought a Model Y and the build quality is pretty impressive on my car.  Zero issues externally and internally the only issue is some noise from panels vibrating when driving over rough roads (which Tesla is in the process of fixing for me, under warranty). 

I wasn't planning on buying a car at all as my old Acura MDX (a 2007 model) was doing just fine and I was planning to drive it for at least 2 or 3 more years.  But I had an accident and totaled it.  So, needed a car and the used car market was ridiculously expensive (most used cars were 70 to 80% of the price of a new car back in July).  Anyway, bought an EV because I realized that whatever car I bought would be my car for the next 10 years and I needed really need to cut the gasoline use NOW rather than 10 years from now. 

So, build quality on the on the newer Teslas is pretty impressive - at least as good as my old Acura (although not quite as good as BMW/Mercedes/Porsche).

Musk himself says that terrible build quality of Teslas has improved in recent months - https://futurism.com/the-byte/elon-musk-criticisms-accurate-tesla-build-quality

[AlanStache]

If being an American brand, and actually MADE in America, is super important, I wonder why more people on the right aren't fans of Tesla.  The 4 models from Tesla are THE MOST American made cars, taking up the top 4 spots:

https://www.cars.com/american-made-index/

Not only that, they are based out of Texas and their CEO is some kind of Libertarian.

Men want to push on the gas peddle, hear noise and see black smoke - it strokes their ego.  And they want to think they are the type of man that will drive out into the country and do stuff, even if they never actually have and 'aint no charging station where I go'. 
Also Tesla started as a 'left coast elites brand'.

[nereo]

If being an American brand, and actually MADE in America, is super important, I wonder why more people on the right aren't fans of Tesla.  The 4 models from Tesla are THE MOST American made cars, taking up the top 4 spots:

https://www.cars.com/american-made-index/

Not only that, they are based out of Texas and their CEO is some kind of Libertarian.

Men want to push on the gas peddle, hear noise and see black smoke - it strokes their ego.  And they want to think they are the type of man that will drive out into the country and do stuff, even if they never actually have and 'aint no charging station where I go'. 
Also Tesla started as a 'left coast elites brand'.

Kinda funny - in their quest to have superchargers with 50 miles of every inch of interstate and highway in the lower 48, Tesla built one of the biggest charging stations in one of the must rural and remote towns in my region. It’s a place where the dominant economic activity is hunting and fishing and there’s fewer than 600 year-round residents, many of whom live on “unimproved roads” with big pickups. But the town has a dozen superchargers for the people passing through!

[AlanStache]

...
Kinda funny - in their quest to have superchargers with 50 miles of every inch of interstate and highway in the lower 48, Tesla built one of the biggest charging stations in one of the must rural and remote towns in my region. It’s a place where the dominant economic activity is hunting and fishing and there’s fewer than 600 year-round residents, many of whom live on “unimproved roads” with big pickups. But the town has a dozen superchargers for the people passing through!

But that is just big gubment wasting my tax money /s

But seriously that is good, glad infrastructure is taking shape for the 'road trip problem'.

[2sk22]

This topic has gone on for 72 pages so I apologize in advance if this has already been asked - would anyone here buy a used EV that is out of battery warranty?

[Just Joe]

Yes but I can DIY a battery repair. I really like the simplicity of the Leaf aircooled pack. Not a road trip car b/c it will only tolerate being fast charged once per day. It is a nice car.

The Plus version has ~220 mi of range with a new pack. That exceeds our edge case use where either myself or DW are away with our "travel car" and the at home SO needs to drive to one of our elderly relatives to take care of something. Plenty of range for that. Also would have enough range to get us to the big metro areas we frequent for entertainment or shopping trips. May or may not need to charge before we came home (I've done it both ways with borrowed Leafs).

Any overnight situations like going to see our elderly relatives would be an easy L2 recharge. And the internet knows well how to hack these cars in case a person wants to put a new big pack in one of the older short range battery cars. 

Other brand BEVs are a little more complicated with an unknown (to me) level of DIY information.

Also, how many cells or modules are available on the used market? What is your skill level? Do you live in a metro area that has a independent shop that specializes in repairing BEVs? The Leaf modules and batteries are simple stand alone packs that are favored by the DIY wind/solar folks so they are always in demand.

[dandarc]

This topic has gone on for 72 pages so I apologize in advance if this has already been asked - would anyone here buy a used EV that is out of battery warranty?

Didn't even cross my mind to check battery warranty when we bought our 2014 Leaf in 2019. I honestly don't know if it was in warranty or not.

So that makes at least 1, but of course buying out of warranty (if indeed it was out of warranty) did not at all mean buying without regards to battery health at all.

[nereo]

This topic has gone on for 72 pages so I apologize in advance if this has already been asked - would anyone here buy a used EV that is out of battery warranty?

I would (and I have!)
I have also bought ICE vehicles where the entire drivetrain was out of warranty.

[alsoknownasDean]

This topic has gone on for 72 pages so I apologize in advance if this has already been asked - would anyone here buy a used EV that is out of battery warranty?

Depends on the price and my range requirements. For short trips where a battery that's depleted by 30% is no big deal, yeah I'd consider it at the right price.

Especially if there's plenty of used batteries and battery repairs available.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[Just Joe]

This topic has gone on for 72 pages so I apologize in advance if this has already been asked - would anyone here buy a used EV that is out of battery warranty?

Didn't even cross my mind to check battery warranty when we bought our 2014 Leaf in 2019. I honestly don't know if it was in warranty or not.

So that makes at least 1, but of course buying out of warranty (if indeed it was out of warranty) did not at all mean buying without regards to battery health at all.

Electric car battery warranties often have the longest coverage of all the warranty types available. This situation may have something to do with the fact that federal law mandates the length of EV battery coverage. This law requires carmakers to provide EV battery warranty coverage that lasts at least eight years or 100,000 miles.

California has laws for electric car battery warranty coverage that provide even more protection than the rules set by the federal government. All EVs sold in California must have electric car battery coverage that lasts 10 years or 150,000 miles.

Just something I found on the web. I've read that while the feds require 100K miles, Tesla warranties their batteries for 150K miles.

[BuffaloStache]

...
Just something I found on the web. I've read that while the feds require 100K miles, Tesla warranties their batteries for 150K miles.

My guess is that Tesla didn't want to deal with the paperwork hassle of offering 2 different warranties (1 for California, 1 for the rest of the US). So they just simplified it and offered one enveloping warranty.

I didn't know that about the federal law to 8yr/100,000 mi. Also, with the California law to 150,000mi, it effectively means that all EV makers need to ensure their battery packs are designed to 150,000 mi or more with some factor of safety. And also, my guess is that if a battery designed for >150,000mi reaches 100,000mi without any major issues, then it is likely to make it to 150,000mi without any major issues as well (reference the Bathtub Curve/principle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve).

[Tyson]

Tesla has 2 battery types.  NMC is high density and is used in the Performance and Long Range version of their cars.  The NMC batteries are rated for 1500 charge cycles, which is between 300k and 500k miles.  https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last/

They use LFP batteries in their standard range cars.  These LFP's last a lot longer, they are rated for 6000 cycles which gets you to a million miles. 

The warranty is for 150,000 miles but as you can see the batteries will generally way outlast that. 

[Just Joe]

Thanks Tyson and BuffaloStache - learned something both times.

[EchoStache]

I'm confused as to why you "continue to be shocked" that people are willing to spend money on Teslas when the average new car transaction price is pushing $50k. It seems you're more shocked that people are willing to spend money on cars in general than specifically Tesla?

Count me as one shocked that many people are spending $50K+ on any car whatever the power source. Do people really have this much money or are they part of a growing debt bubble?

I absolutely won't spend like that. I can, but won't. It is a depreciating asset that sits is vulnerable in parking lots and sits outside in my driveway.

Edited for typos.

Might be because they aren't all as expensive as you *may* think.  2023 Inventory Tesla M3 is ~$32,600 all in after federal tax rebate, so not including any potential state incentives.  A $24k Toyota Corolla Hybrid will cost more to own and drive over 200,000 miles, will burn over 4,000 gallons of fossil fuel in that time($15,000), require 27 oil changes($2,000) or roughly 135 gallons of extremely contaminated oil, along with potentially increased maintenance cost of a drastically more complex ICE/hybrid setup.

I don't find people spending $50k on a car shocking at all.  Why?  I know people other than frugal people who spend time on frugal financial websites.  Almost no one I run across on a daily basis thinks twice about taking out a 7 year loan on a $40-$80k gas guzzling SUV or pickup as long as they can qualify for whatever payment the dealer shows them.  It's pretty common knowledge that for the majority of Americans, "can I get approved for financing" = "I can afford".  Many of the customers at the Starbucks where my daughter works pay enough at Starbucks to finance a brand new Tesla since they spend $30/day every single day at Starbucks.  They pull up in their financed gas hog $50k SUV talking on their financed $1500 iPhone 15 Pro Max with their $300/month cellular plan on their way home to order their daily meal via Door Dash so they can sit down and watch TV via their $300/month internet/cable/streaming package.  Am I shocked people will spend $50k on a car?

[Tyson]

I'm confused as to why you "continue to be shocked" that people are willing to spend money on Teslas when the average new car transaction price is pushing $50k. It seems you're more shocked that people are willing to spend money on cars in general than specifically Tesla?

Count me as one shocked that many people are spending $50K+ on any car whatever the power source. Do people really have this much money or are they part of a growing debt bubble?

I absolutely won't spend like that. I can, but won't. It is a depreciating asset that sits is vulnerable in parking lots and sits outside in my driveway.

Edited for typos.

Might be because they aren't all as expensive as you *may* think.  2023 Inventory Tesla M3 is ~$32,600 all in after federal tax rebate, so not including any potential state incentives.  A $24k Toyota Corolla Hybrid will cost more to own and drive over 200,000 miles, will burn over 4,000 gallons of fossil fuel in that time($15,000), require 27 oil changes($2,000) or roughly 135 gallons of extremely contaminated oil, along with potentially increased maintenance cost of a drastically more complex ICE/hybrid setup.

I don't find people spending $50k on a car shocking at all.  Why?  I know people other than frugal people who spend time on frugal financial websites.  Almost no one I run across on a daily basis thinks twice about taking out a 7 year loan on a $40-$80k gas guzzling SUV or pickup as long as they can qualify for whatever payment the dealer shows them.  It's pretty common knowledge that for the majority of Americans, "can I get approved for financing" = "I can afford".  Many of the customers at the Starbucks where my daughter works pay enough at Starbucks to finance a brand new Tesla since they spend $30/day every single day at Starbucks.  They pull up in their financed gas hog $50k SUV talking on their financed $1500 iPhone 15 Pro Max with their $300/month cellular plan on their way home to order their daily meal via Door Dash so they can sit down and watch TV via their $300/month internet/cable/streaming package.  Am I shocked people will spend $50k on a car?

Exactly right.  My Model Y was $52k list, but then I also qualified for the $7500 federal tax credit PLUS the $5000 Colorado state credit, bringing the cost down to $39.5k for a brand new car.  The only thing is you have to be disciplined and wait for tax time and then take your refund to apply it to your car loan (if you have one). 

Next year I think they are going to change the laws so that you can take the rebates at the time of purchase.

[TomTX]

I believe an old [US] federal law prohibits charging stations at rest stops because it prohibits certain commercialization at the rest stops.

There's ways around it or the Chicagoland interstate oasis thing wouldn't have been a thing.

It is possible that tollways are the way around it though and I don't know that I want to encourage that. I mean paying for use is probably good but having to check to make sure the transponder worked and you won't get a fine is bullshit.

The only currently used "ways around it" are:

Install the facility before January 1, 1960
Install the facility outside the Interstate ROW
Offer free charging. I believe California has two locations doing this.

See https://www.govinfo.gov/link/uscode/23/111 and https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-23/section-752.5

[TomTX]

Well to be clear, in 2035 (12 years from now) California will no longer allow new passenger vehicles to be sold in state, but there is an exemption and longer glide path for trucks, which make up a substantial fraction of vehicles. Given the lifespan of a modern passenger vehicle is about 12 years, most ICE vehicles sold in California a decade from now will still be on the road in 2040.

Moderate correction. Conversion will be even slower: The median age of a vehicle currently on the road is 12 years, not the median lifespan. Half are newer, half older. Median age at retirement is going to be somewhere upwards of 20 years.

[Just Joe]

I don't find people spending $50k on a car shocking at all.  Why?  I know people other than frugal people who spend time on frugal financial websites.  Almost no one I run across on a daily basis thinks twice about taking out a 7 year loan on a $40-$80k gas guzzling SUV or pickup as long as they can qualify for whatever payment the dealer shows them.  It's pretty common knowledge that for the majority of Americans, "can I get approved for financing" = "I can afford".  Many of the customers at the Starbucks where my daughter works pay enough at Starbucks to finance a brand new Tesla since they spend $30/day every single day at Starbucks.  They pull up in their financed gas hog $50k SUV talking on their financed $1500 iPhone 15 Pro Max with their $300/month cellular plan on their way home to order their daily meal via Door Dash so they can sit down and watch TV via their $300/month internet/cable/streaming package.  Am I shocked people will spend $50k on a car?

Ahhh, I see we've met the same people... ;)

[BuffaloStache]

^And then many of those same people look at me like I have 5 heads when I try to tell them they don't need to live this way... Oh boy.

[Just Joe]

The folks at Marketplace (NPR podcast) said that people's credit card debt is growing again. I guess at some point the spending will slow whether the spenders like it or not.

[Tyson]

The folks at Marketplace (NPR podcast) said that people's credit card debt is growing again. I guess at some point the spending will slow whether the spenders like it or not.

People still have credit card debt?  Wow I must run in some unique circles as nobody I know had CC debt anymore.  I figured it was something people had gotten wise to, but I guess not....

[farmecologist]

The folks at Marketplace (NPR podcast) said that people's credit card debt is growing again. I guess at some point the spending will slow whether the spenders like it or not.

People still have credit card debt?  Wow I must run in some unique circles as nobody I know had CC debt anymore.  I figured it was something people had gotten wise to, but I guess not....

You are kidding right?  Credit card debt is at all time highs...but those that do pay massive interest fees do pay for my credit card perks, I guess.   

https://www.lendingtree.com/credit-cards/credit-card-debt-statistics/

[Tyson]

The folks at Marketplace (NPR podcast) said that people's credit card debt is growing again. I guess at some point the spending will slow whether the spenders like it or not.

People still have credit card debt?  Wow I must run in some unique circles as nobody I know had CC debt anymore.  I figured it was something people had gotten wise to, but I guess not....

You are kidding right?  Credit card debt is at all time highs...but those that do pay massive interest fees do pay for my credit card perks, I guess.   

https://www.lendingtree.com/credit-cards/credit-card-debt-statistics/

Those graphs are .... astonishing.

[LennStar]

Every dollar debt is a dollar wealth for someone else, and every dollar wealth is a dollar debt for someone else. There is no wealth without debt und no debt without wealth. 

Wealth is rising, so debt must be rising too.

[nereo]

Every dollar debt is a dollar wealth for someone else, and every dollar wealth is a dollar debt for someone else. There is no wealth without debt und no debt without wealth. 

Wealth is rising, so debt must be rising too.

I understand your point, but it’s not what we were discussing. We are talking about debt on ccs that are not paid off in full each months. There’s no rule that says this number should be low or high.

[LennStar]

Every dollar debt is a dollar wealth for someone else, and every dollar wealth is a dollar debt for someone else. There is no wealth without debt und no debt without wealth. 

Wealth is rising, so debt must be rising too.

I understand your point, but it’s not what we were discussing. We are talking about debt on ccs that are not paid off in full each months. There’s no rule that says this number should be low or high.

No, what was dicussed was that there are not only people still with CC debts, but that the CC debts are increasing and that this surprised.
My point is that it would be surprising if CC debts did not rise, since most companies are not in the part of the cycle where they raise debts, and then you have not many options left. The state is doing a lot of this part, but not by the amount wealth is increasing.

[waltworks]

If that's real dollars, it's a big deal.

I think it's nominal dollars, though, so it's really kind of a nothingburger.

Edit: Yes, it's a nothingburger.

https://www.paymentsjournal.com/adjusted-for-inflation-levels-of-credit-card-debt-arent-so-bad/#:~:text=According%20to%20WalletHub%2C%20total%20credit,an%20inflation%2Dadjusted%20basis.%E2%80%9D

-W

[GilesMM]

Was walking the dog today as neighbor took delivery of a Fisker Ocean.  Looks cool.  Up to 340 mile range, plenty of oomph, but not a lot of towing capacity.  Starts at $38k.

[lemonlyman]

Was walking the dog today as neighbor took delivery of a Fisker Ocean.  Looks cool.  Up to 340 mile range, plenty of oomph, but not a lot of towing capacity.  Starts at $38k.

Sweet! I don’t expect to see one of those for some time. If your neighbor gives you impressions or a ride, please share your thoughts.

I just got a 2020 Nissan Leaf SV Plus as a town car. Very inexpensive in the used market for a 200+ mile vehicle. Lots of chademo chargers in my area which was a part of the consideration.