Author Topic: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?  (Read 554602 times)

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3400 on: August 09, 2023, 07:21:57 AM »
More chargers need to be in expected places for the mainstream folks to see them w/o looking at an app.

Interstate rest stops for example. Starbucks Coffee. Big box retail stores. Malls.

Otherwise those mainstream non-ev people may continue to see them as boutique transportation solutions with boutique fueling solutions. 

People I know who aren't eager to buy an EV haven't downloaded any apps or looked at webpages that map charger locations. They are noticing the batch of newly installed Tesla chargers about 20 minutes from their home and talking about what it would be like to sit there for an hour or more while it charges. Many other brand chargers are nearly invisible compared to the Tesla chargers. All sorts of problems with their perspective (why wouldn't they charge at their SFH overnight instead, doesn't take that long to charge) but that is how they seem to be considering life with an EV.

Plugshare is my go to app as well. And I've seen the same things you have Raenia. Chargers that are broken and stay broken for long periods of time. 
« Last Edit: August 09, 2023, 07:24:01 AM by Just Joe »

RWD

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3401 on: August 09, 2023, 07:30:45 AM »
How do you usually find that information?

PlugShare is the best resource I've found.

Thanks RWD! Are you using the "Check ins" feature to guess whether the charger is operational? Looks like the one in my dad's town, the last check in was Nov 2022, and the person notes that they were not able to use it because they couldn't get the app to work. And the next nearest one has been offline since March. Does not fill me with confidence, but at least it's more information than the other site I tried.

There are several pieces of information. PlugShare will give the station a score out of 10 (based on recent user reports, I believe) and will also note if the whole station is down or something. For example, here's one that is under repair which is clearly noted in red-highlighted text at the top: Memphis Electrify America. For common highway routes there are usually lots of check-ins. I picked a random one I remember from a previous trip and it has four check-ins in the last 3 days: Rockford Electrify America. Here's another one with nine check-ins in the last 3 days, one of which notes a couple chargers that were working but not at full speed: Forrest City Electrify America.

Looking at PlugShare before arriving at a station allowed us to save time by avoiding known problematic plugs. Though the Electrify America app is getting better about noting reduced speed chargers as well.


More chargers need to be in expected places for the mainstream folks to see them w/o looking at an app.

Absolutely agree.

Dancin'Dog

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3402 on: August 09, 2023, 08:12:41 AM »
Chargers need to be installed in inviting safe-looking places.  Public rest areas on the interstates seem like an excellent place to install chargers.  It's a safe, easily accessible, convenient, place for the government to encourage electric vehicle use.  It's a comfortable place where folks normally stop to pee, stretch their legs, have a snack, and walk their pets.  It would be a friendly, casual place for E-drivers to answer potential e-car buyers' questions and promote their advantages. 


It would also be great to see some solar arrays installed at the rest areas too, might as well promote that too. 



Is this something that is already happening?  If not, we need to shoot Biden an email. 

charis

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3403 on: August 09, 2023, 08:28:22 AM »
The first EV owners were what I'd call "bleeding edge".  Now, it's more like "leading edge".  In a couple more years, it will be mainstream.  I mean, it took a while for the horse and buggy to go away, too.

For trips, I look for DC fast chargers along the way, not necessarily at the destination, since they're mainly along main highways.

I've noticed that the number of EV owners on my block has ramped up dramatically in the past six months to a year.  There are two Teslas but the rest are a variety of makes/models. 

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3404 on: August 09, 2023, 08:30:19 AM »
Solar panels would be a great addition to the rest stop charger plan. Even better might be a monitor in the lobby area showing EV and solar panel stats.

Production/consumption currently, over the past week/month/year. Consumption by the rest stop services and by EVs separately.

A little educational moment for anyone that cares to look.

geekette

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3405 on: August 09, 2023, 09:18:59 AM »
The first EV owners were what I'd call "bleeding edge".  Now, it's more like "leading edge".  In a couple more years, it will be mainstream.  I mean, it took a while for the horse and buggy to go away, too.

For trips, I look for DC fast chargers along the way, not necessarily at the destination, since they're mainly along main highways.

I've noticed that the number of EV owners on my block has ramped up dramatically in the past six months to a year.  There are two Teslas but the rest are a variety of makes/models.
I recognize Teslas, but the others seem to blend in (I've noticed many new ICE cars are hiding their tailpipes, now).  The only semi-reliable way for me to recognize a non-Tesla EV is in parking lots and on residential streets, when they emit that otherworldly sound to warn pedestrians.  Hybrids, PHEVs (when they're running on battery) and EVs all will, though.

I'm having a devil of a time with route planning on PlugShare and ABRP, but I can at least see the chargers along the route.  Google maps has chargers listed, and I read that Apple will be adding EV charging route planning in the next iOS update. 

I've also seen a lot of misinformation about opening up the Tesla network to other EVs.  The main problem I see is their short charging cables that are set up to reach the Tesla port and little else.  Other than that, it seems they would just need a dongle and permission, no?

RWD

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3406 on: August 09, 2023, 09:40:03 AM »
I believe an old [US] federal law prohibits charging stations at rest stops because it prohibits certain commercialization at the rest stops.

StashingAway

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3407 on: August 09, 2023, 10:05:40 AM »
Solar panels would be a great addition to the rest stop charger plan. Even better might be a monitor in the lobby area showing EV and solar panel stats.

Production/consumption currently, over the past week/month/year. Consumption by the rest stop services and by EVs separately.

A little educational moment for anyone that cares to look.

A related idea running around with the new mini-nuclear plants is to put them along interstate truck routes. This would service the extremely high instant demand needed for electric semis, but I imagine would also be quite beneficial for busy pedestrian EV travel.

Not sure of the cost benefit of that vs solar panels and local battery stations, but  there is no real logistical reason to need the solar panels located on site excepting for the few times that production meets demand. Otherwise, the panels will still have to use the grid infrastructure to disperse overproduction, and grid will be needed for when demand isn't enough. Not really much different than having a solar farm offsite. The grid would still need to meet maximum demand if solar isn't producing, so there wouldn't be any resource savings having the panels on site.

jrhampt

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3408 on: August 09, 2023, 12:03:17 PM »
The first EV owners were what I'd call "bleeding edge".  Now, it's more like "leading edge".  In a couple more years, it will be mainstream.  I mean, it took a while for the horse and buggy to go away, too.

For trips, I look for DC fast chargers along the way, not necessarily at the destination, since they're mainly along main highways.

I've noticed that the number of EV owners on my block has ramped up dramatically in the past six months to a year.  There are two Teslas but the rest are a variety of makes/models.
I recognize Teslas, but the others seem to blend in (I've noticed many new ICE cars are hiding their tailpipes, now). The only semi-reliable way for me to recognize a non-Tesla EV is in parking lots and on residential streets, when they emit that otherworldly sound to warn pedestrians.  Hybrids, PHEVs (when they're running on battery) and EVs all will, though.

I'm having a devil of a time with route planning on PlugShare and ABRP, but I can at least see the chargers along the route.  Google maps has chargers listed, and I read that Apple will be adding EV charging route planning in the next iOS update. 

I've also seen a lot of misinformation about opening up the Tesla network to other EVs.  The main problem I see is their short charging cables that are set up to reach the Tesla port and little else.  Other than that, it seems they would just need a dongle and permission, no?

We call it "the angels".

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3409 on: August 09, 2023, 12:50:23 PM »
Solar panels would be a great addition to the rest stop charger plan. Even better might be a monitor in the lobby area showing EV and solar panel stats.

Production/consumption currently, over the past week/month/year. Consumption by the rest stop services and by EVs separately.

A little educational moment for anyone that cares to look.

A related idea running around with the new mini-nuclear plants is to put them along interstate truck routes. This would service the extremely high instant demand needed for electric semis, but I imagine would also be quite beneficial for busy pedestrian EV travel.

Not sure of the cost benefit of that vs solar panels and local battery stations, but  there is no real logistical reason to need the solar panels located on site excepting for the few times that production meets demand. Otherwise, the panels will still have to use the grid infrastructure to disperse overproduction, and grid will be needed for when demand isn't enough. Not really much different than having a solar farm offsite. The grid would still need to meet maximum demand if solar isn't producing, so there wouldn't be any resource savings having the panels on site.

True - I was thinking about the rest stops we have across the bottom half of the continent that could benefit from a sun shade over the parking areas in the summer for people sitting in their cars. When I lived in southern Italy, autostrada gas stations sometimes offered carport like parking so people could rest for a moment and not get baked. Air conditioners in cars were not ubiquitous back then. Seemed like a great idea.

Of course here in the USA shade and benches are not a given b/c perhaps we are being urged to rent a place to sit inside a restaurant (buy food!) or to prevent the comfort of homeless? 

Yes, the devil is in the details. Frankly I'd like to see solar on everything that faces the sun - especially big commercial properties like warehouses, schools, and parking lots.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2023, 12:55:22 PM by Just Joe »

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3410 on: August 09, 2023, 12:51:38 PM »
We call it "the angels".

Not the SUV I heard this morning. Sounded a little like it ran over a farm yard animal. Didn't pay attention to the brand - maybe a Rav4 PHEV?

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3411 on: August 09, 2023, 02:35:35 PM »
Solar panels would be a great addition to the rest stop charger plan. Even better might be a monitor in the lobby area showing EV and solar panel stats.

Production/consumption currently, over the past week/month/year. Consumption by the rest stop services and by EVs separately.

A little educational moment for anyone that cares to look.

A related idea running around with the new mini-nuclear plants is to put them along interstate truck routes. This would service the extremely high instant demand needed for electric semis, but I imagine would also be quite beneficial for busy pedestrian EV travel.

Not sure of the cost benefit of that vs solar panels and local battery stations, but  there is no real logistical reason to need the solar panels located on site excepting for the few times that production meets demand. Otherwise, the panels will still have to use the grid infrastructure to disperse overproduction, and grid will be needed for when demand isn't enough. Not really much different than having a solar farm offsite. The grid would still need to meet maximum demand if solar isn't producing, so there wouldn't be any resource savings having the panels on site.

True - I was thinking about the rest stops we have across the bottom half of the continent that could benefit from a sun shade over the parking areas in the summer for people sitting in their cars. When I lived in southern Italy, autostrada gas stations sometimes offered carport like parking so people could rest for a moment and not get baked. Air conditioners in cars were not ubiquitous back then. Seemed like a great idea.

Of course here in the USA shade and benches are not a given b/c perhaps we are being urged to rent a place to sit inside a restaurant (buy food!) or to prevent the comfort of homeless? 

Yes, the devil is in the details. Frankly I'd like to see solar on everything that faces the sun - especially big commercial properties like warehouses, schools, and parking lots.

I think it depends on the state.  I suspect if a survey was done Southern states would be more stingy about roadside parks.  For generations income was lower in these states and tax revenue would not have been available for such niceties.

AccidentialMustache

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3412 on: August 09, 2023, 08:52:15 PM »
I believe an old [US] federal law prohibits charging stations at rest stops because it prohibits certain commercialization at the rest stops.

There's ways around it or the Chicagoland interstate oasis thing wouldn't have been a thing.

It is possible that tollways are the way around it though and I don't know that I want to encourage that. I mean paying for use is probably good but having to check to make sure the transponder worked and you won't get a fine is bullshit.

jrhampt

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3413 on: August 10, 2023, 06:05:16 AM »
We call it "the angels".

Not the SUV I heard this morning. Sounded a little like it ran over a farm yard animal. Didn't pay attention to the brand - maybe a Rav4 PHEV?

Ours is a Honda crv hybrid...it really does sound somewhat like an angelic chorus starting up.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3414 on: August 10, 2023, 07:58:23 AM »
Yeah the Nissan Leaf sounds like a Star Trek phenomena seen in the pilot episode. The leaves make a sound until you touch them.


jinga nation

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3415 on: August 10, 2023, 08:43:58 AM »
Hopefully they'll start fixing the broken ones in my area, especially the two at my gym, and the ones at some of the county's public libraries. I've seen EV owners dismayed to find inoperable chargers.

Plugshare is the most up-to-date map I've seen with status. And I like the checkins/history for the charger.

Quote
EV charging network ChargePoint has opened a new Network Operations Center to monitor its network of more than 243,000 charging ports in North America and Europe.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/08/heres-how-chargepoint-plans-to-increase-ev-charger-reliability/

jeninco

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3416 on: August 10, 2023, 10:04:25 AM »
Solar panels would be a great addition to the rest stop charger plan. Even better might be a monitor in the lobby area showing EV and solar panel stats.

Production/consumption currently, over the past week/month/year. Consumption by the rest stop services and by EVs separately.

A little educational moment for anyone that cares to look.

A related idea running around with the new mini-nuclear plants is to put them along interstate truck routes. This would service the extremely high instant demand needed for electric semis, but I imagine would also be quite beneficial for busy pedestrian EV travel.

Not sure of the cost benefit of that vs solar panels and local battery stations, but  there is no real logistical reason to need the solar panels located on site excepting for the few times that production meets demand. Otherwise, the panels will still have to use the grid infrastructure to disperse overproduction, and grid will be needed for when demand isn't enough. Not really much different than having a solar farm offsite. The grid would still need to meet maximum demand if solar isn't producing, so there wouldn't be any resource savings having the panels on site.

True - I was thinking about the rest stops we have across the bottom half of the continent that could benefit from a sun shade over the parking areas in the summer for people sitting in their cars. When I lived in southern Italy, autostrada gas stations sometimes offered carport like parking so people could rest for a moment and not get baked. Air conditioners in cars were not ubiquitous back then. Seemed like a great idea.

Of course here in the USA shade and benches are not a given b/c perhaps we are being urged to rent a place to sit inside a restaurant (buy food!) or to prevent the comfort of homeless? 

Yes, the devil is in the details. Frankly I'd like to see solar on everything that faces the sun - especially big commercial properties like warehouses, schools, and parking lots.

Sing it. It makes me so very crabby to fly into LAX, looking down on all the warehouse roofs that have been painted white (to try to keep the building underneath a bit cooler) that should be covered with solar panels. Especially since LA is a bit transmission-constrained, and could really use the local generation!

Ain't gonna happen, though -- I chatted with a friend there who's an architect, who says the buildings aren't designed for the extra weight on the roofs. Sounds like BS to me, but I am not responsible for seeing that buildings don't fall down.

LennStar

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3417 on: August 10, 2023, 11:16:46 AM »
Yeah, some roofs have surprisingly light weight resistance. And a ton of solar modules weights an surprising amount of a ton. Though imho the biggest problem should be wind, if you put them flat you don't need the heavy metal construction to hold them down (or fear that the roof would lift off in a storm).

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3418 on: August 10, 2023, 03:03:27 PM »
Yeah, some roofs have surprisingly light weight resistance. And a ton of solar modules weights an surprising amount of a ton. Though imho the biggest problem should be wind, if you put them flat you don't need the heavy metal construction to hold them down (or fear that the roof would lift off in a storm).

Yes - I've seen buildings collapse on the lands South of Lake Superior.  These buildings were designed for places a few miles South where they don't have the snow load.  Putting all that metal and glass of solar panels on the roof may be similar.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3419 on: August 10, 2023, 09:06:39 PM »
Roofs seem easy to adapt and re-engineer. Not a mystery I mean. 

LennStar

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3420 on: August 10, 2023, 11:21:37 PM »
Really?
First you open up the thing and need to make sure that still no rain goes through, so you might need a second temporary roof. Then you replace the carrying elements with stronger ones, maybe the surface too. Then, because of the higher weight, you need to place more carrying elements inside the building (which might annoy people a tiny bit) or increase the weight capacity of the walls.

By which point it's cheaper to just tear everything down and build it new, giving the "climate change is a leftist hoax" group a good argument that solar is too expensive.

AlanStache

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3421 on: August 11, 2023, 07:00:50 AM »
Roofs seem easy to adapt and re-engineer. Not a mystery I mean.

Conceptually easy does not necessarily mean cost efficient.   Different buildings of different ages and design means you need to evaluate each one on its own = time & money.  With California's solar requirement on new single family homes I could see something similar on other new structures. 

It occurred to me the other day that Aptera's solar car could be a very good fit for me, I drive once every few weeks and park on the street or in a lot that will not have EV charging for many many years.  Not at all sure Aptera will make and sell a viable product and I hope my current beater lasts a lot longer but could be a cool option down the line. 

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3422 on: August 11, 2023, 09:15:40 AM »
Roofs seem easy to adapt and re-engineer. Not a mystery I mean.

Conceptually easy does not necessarily mean cost efficient.   Different buildings of different ages and design means you need to evaluate each one on its own = time & money.  With California's solar requirement on new single family homes I could see something similar on other new structures. 

It occurred to me the other day that Aptera's solar car could be a very good fit for me, I drive once every few weeks and park on the street or in a lot that will not have EV charging for many many years.  Not at all sure Aptera will make and sell a viable product and I hope my current beater lasts a lot longer but could be a cool option down the line.

How quick does modern gas go bad in a tank?  I'm like you.  I don't have an electric car and only use a few gallons every few weeks.  I guess sunshine never goes bad.

Greystache

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3423 on: August 11, 2023, 09:25:34 AM »
Am I the only one who thinks we are marketing and building EVs all wrong?  The manufacturers seem to be in an EV range arms race to make the biggest, heaviest, longest range vehicles. We are agonizing over infrastructure to allow for long range road trips.  We seem to be ignoring that most Americans live in households with two or more cars. Most live in single family homes and thus have access to home charging. The average commute is less than 30 minutes each way. It seems to me that we should be concentrating our efforts on making EVs with modest range (say 150 miles) that are lighter and cheaper. I'm guessing that the auto makers have done market research that tells them consumers want big long range vehicles, but what have they done to influence the market? 
The other marketing mistake is focusing on environmental issues. Half the country is in denial about climate change and the need to reduce fossil fuel consumption. Maybe we'd get more traction if we started emphasizing things like energy independence and national security. If we can get half of our cars running on electricity that can be produced by renewables, natural gas or even, god forbid, coal, we could largely insulate ourselves from hostile nations like Russia and Saudi Arabia manipulating the price of oil.

GuitarStv

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3424 on: August 11, 2023, 09:28:56 AM »
Am I the only one who thinks we are marketing and building EVs all wrong?

Nope, you're not.

Fundamentally, the problem is that we've built our countries around DRIVING AT ALL COSTS rather than more sensible methods of getting around.  EVs are (at best) a necessary evil, not a real solution to our problems.  At worst, they're enabling us to continue to follow down this terribly misguided and wrong path.

AlanStache

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3425 on: August 11, 2023, 09:30:02 AM »
Roofs seem easy to adapt and re-engineer. Not a mystery I mean.

Conceptually easy does not necessarily mean cost efficient.   Different buildings of different ages and design means you need to evaluate each one on its own = time & money.  With California's solar requirement on new single family homes I could see something similar on other new structures. 

It occurred to me the other day that Aptera's solar car could be a very good fit for me, I drive once every few weeks and park on the street or in a lot that will not have EV charging for many many years.  Not at all sure Aptera will make and sell a viable product and I hope my current beater lasts a lot longer but could be a cool option down the line.

How quick does modern gas go bad in a tank?  I'm like you.  I don't have an electric car and only use a few gallons every few weeks.  I guess sunshine never goes bad.

From ChatGPT:
"The lifespan of gasoline in a car's tank can vary based on several factors, including the quality of the gasoline, storage conditions, and the presence of additives. Generally, gasoline can start to degrade over time due to factors such as evaporation, oxidation, and contamination. Here are some rough guidelines:

1. **Fresh Gasoline:** Fresh gasoline can typically last for about three to six months in a car's tank before it starts to degrade noticeably.

2. **Gasoline with Stabilizers:** If you use a fuel stabilizer additive, the gasoline's lifespan can be extended to around 9-12 months. Fuel stabilizers help prevent oxidation and other forms of degradation.

3. **Premium Gasoline:** Higher octane gasoline might have slightly longer shelf life compared to regular gasoline due to its additional additives, but the difference is not usually significant.

4. **Temperature and Storage:** Gasoline degrades faster at higher temperatures, so storing your car in a cool, shaded place can help extend the lifespan of the fuel.

5. **Additives:** Some gasoline brands include detergents and additives that can help maintain the quality of the fuel for a longer time. These additives can vary between brands.

6. **Ethanol Content:** Gasoline with ethanol (such as E10, which contains 10% ethanol) tends to absorb moisture from the air, leading to quicker degradation. Ethanol-blended gasoline can start to degrade within a couple of months.

It's important to note that while the gasoline might degrade in terms of its combustion efficiency over time, it doesn't necessarily become harmful to your engine. However, very old or degraded gasoline might lead to harder starting, reduced fuel efficiency, and possibly even engine knocking.

If you plan to store your car for an extended period without driving it, consider using a fuel stabilizer and filling the tank to reduce the amount of air and moisture inside, which can slow down the degradation process. If you're uncertain about the quality of the gasoline in your car's tank, it's a good idea to drain and replace it before starting the vehicle after a long period of inactivity."

Then the general web says gas with ethanol can starts to degrade before 3 months, but then is still not bad for the engine.  I get fuel monthly or so; not really concerned about it.  If I really cared about my car I would have done better about getting regular oil changes when I was driving more  :-)

I am guessing even in the winter there will be enough sunny days to charge it up over the 7-14 days it just sits around, or I <gasp> drive to a grocery store and charge it while shopping.  But using Lyft/Uber once my car dies may still be cheaper than buying a replacement - but will I choose to go fewer places because of the out of pocket cost?  Problems for future me. 



Dancin'Dog

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3426 on: August 11, 2023, 10:53:24 AM »
Everybody knows that the correct way to market cars to Americans is to put them on a NASCAR track.  Bubba needs to see em' in action, and a few will occasionally need to be sacrificed in a good crash.  The fact that lithium burns so well should be a marketing advantage on the track. 


That's the way to sell cars.

2sk22

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3427 on: August 11, 2023, 12:41:31 PM »
Am I the only one who thinks we are marketing and building EVs all wrong?  The manufacturers seem to be in an EV range arms race to make the biggest, heaviest, longest range vehicles. We are agonizing over infrastructure to allow for long range road trips.  We seem to be ignoring that most Americans live in households with two or more cars. Most live in single family homes and thus have access to home charging. The average commute is less than 30 minutes each way. It seems to me that we should be concentrating our efforts on making EVs with modest range (say 150 miles) that are lighter and cheaper. I'm guessing that the auto makers have done market research that tells them consumers want big long range vehicles, but what have they done to influence the market? 
The other marketing mistake is focusing on environmental issues. Half the country is in denial about climate change and the need to reduce fossil fuel consumption. Maybe we'd get more traction if we started emphasizing things like energy independence and national security. If we can get half of our cars running on electricity that can be produced by renewables, natural gas or even, god forbid, coal, we could largely insulate ourselves from hostile nations like Russia and Saudi Arabia manipulating the price of oil.

I completely agree with you! I think EVs with smaller batteries and PHEVs will work better for a lot of people and save overall on energy costs.

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3428 on: August 11, 2023, 03:51:02 PM »
Am I the only one who thinks we are marketing and building EVs all wrong?  The manufacturers seem to be in an EV range arms race to make the biggest, heaviest, longest range vehicles. We are agonizing over infrastructure to allow for long range road trips.  We seem to be ignoring that most Americans live in households with two or more cars. Most live in single family homes and thus have access to home charging. The average commute is less than 30 minutes each way. It seems to me that we should be concentrating our efforts on making EVs with modest range (say 150 miles) that are lighter and cheaper. I'm guessing that the auto makers have done market research that tells them consumers want big long range vehicles, but what have they done to influence the market? 
The other marketing mistake is focusing on environmental issues. Half the country is in denial about climate change and the need to reduce fossil fuel consumption. Maybe we'd get more traction if we started emphasizing things like energy independence and national security. If we can get half of our cars running on electricity that can be produced by renewables, natural gas or even, god forbid, coal, we could largely insulate ourselves from hostile nations like Russia and Saudi Arabia manipulating the price of oil.

I completely agree with you! I think EVs with smaller batteries and PHEVs will work better for a lot of people and save overall on energy costs.

I think the same sort of mentality from the marketing of gasoline powered vehicles has permeated their thinking.  As I've stated before, several years ago I went to the local Ford dealer to replace my aging Focus.  I found there were no new small high mileage cars to be had at the Ford dealer.  Of course, I was told that people didn't want them.  My answer of me being "people" was met with deaf ears.

The margin is higher for SUVs and trucks.  Most can be persuaded by advertising to desire a big pickup truck.  I'm thinking they will be doing the same for electric vehicles.  Why make  and sell three vehicles when you can get the same margin with one?  There is a subset of the market that wants this smaller lower range electric vehicle.  The manufacturers realize that unless they can sell these for substantially less than the ICE offerings, there is no point in marketing such a product.  For the next few years electric cars will be sold to those with higher disposable incomes.

As the market becomes saturated and as new governmental regulations take effect, I suspect we will then see more offerings of the small lesser range electric cars.  Now you can tell me I'm full of it.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3429 on: August 12, 2023, 12:24:50 AM »
I'm guessing that the auto makers have done market research that tells them consumers want big long range vehicles, but what have they done to influence the market? 
As a car maker, why should I put effort in convinving people to buy cars that make me less profit?

Also don't underestimate the scale effects. Currently I think every singe car maker except Tesla and BYD is losing money with each car sold. In part that's because they didn't start designing electric cars but just slapped a different motor in them, but it's also because you need to sell about 100'000 of them to have a chance to be profitable.
There is a Chinese luxury car maker startup, forgot the name. They sell a car for about 100'000 dollar and make a loss of about 300'000 each.

That said BYD is selling small, efficient cars for relativly cheap, but only in China. The bigger cars they have started to sell in Europe cost at least 10K more here as in China too. 
The best bet at the moment would be - I guess - the new model 3 (or new model) that they are preparing which is intended to lower the price (without government money) to under 30K.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3430 on: August 12, 2023, 07:03:30 AM »
Really?
First you open up the thing and need to make sure that still no rain goes through, so you might need a second temporary roof. Then you replace the carrying elements with stronger ones, maybe the surface too. Then, because of the higher weight, you need to place more carrying elements inside the building (which might annoy people a tiny bit) or increase the weight capacity of the walls.

By which point it's cheaper to just tear everything down and build it new, giving the "climate change is a leftist hoax" group a good argument that solar is too expensive.

There is a picture at the start of this article that is what I was imagining: https://www.evconnect.com/blog/can-the-power-grid-handle-electric-cars

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3431 on: August 12, 2023, 07:14:23 AM »
Am I the only one who thinks we are marketing and building EVs all wrong?  The manufacturers seem to be in an EV range arms race to make the biggest, heaviest, longest range vehicles. We are agonizing over infrastructure to allow for long range road trips.  We seem to be ignoring that most Americans live in households with two or more cars. Most live in single family homes and thus have access to home charging. The average commute is less than 30 minutes each way. It seems to me that we should be concentrating our efforts on making EVs with modest range (say 150 miles) that are lighter and cheaper. I'm guessing that the auto makers have done market research that tells them consumers want big long range vehicles, but what have they done to influence the market? 
The other marketing mistake is focusing on environmental issues. Half the country is in denial about climate change and the need to reduce fossil fuel consumption. Maybe we'd get more traction if we started emphasizing things like energy independence and national security. If we can get half of our cars running on electricity that can be produced by renewables, natural gas or even, god forbid, coal, we could largely insulate ourselves from hostile nations like Russia and Saudi Arabia manipulating the price of oil.

I completely agree with you! I think EVs with smaller batteries and PHEVs will work better for a lot of people and save overall on energy costs.

I agree too. My EV "obsession" is a small forward controls truck smaller than a 1960s VW van that has a top speed of 60 mph. I think their specs are impossible but I'm willing to daydream that it could be possible. A solar panel incorporated into the roof helps add miles to the range they claim. (XBus "pickup Bus").

Would be perfect in the small town where I live. My coworker drives a 1990s miniature forward controls Japanese (JDM) truck. If that is legal, why not the XBus? Hope they make it to market and it isn't vaporware. 

I fully expect our government here in the :"Land of the Free" will slap the Chicken Tax on it or declare it hazardous to consumers and refuse to allow it to be imported. Meanwhile a hot rod guy can drag an old car out of a field and make a myriad of custom changes that potentially compromise its safety, and half ass repairs - and that is 50-states legal. -eye roll-

(I'm not down on the hot rod guy, I'm related to a bunch of those folks and I count myself as one).

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3432 on: August 12, 2023, 07:17:41 AM »
I'm guessing that the auto makers have done market research that tells them consumers want big long range vehicles, but what have they done to influence the market? 
As a car maker, why should I put effort in convinving [sic] people to buy cars that make me less profit?

Also don't underestimate the scale effects. Currently I think every singe [sic] car maker except Tesla and BYD is losing money with each car sold.

Given the guidance from GM, it sounds like they currently have a baseline cost close to $40k for Ultium-based vehicles, which probably scales up a good bit for their 200kWh batteries that go into the large vehicles. So something like the Blazer EV ($56k) or the Silverado EV ($78k) are probably roughly break-even per unit or even slightly profitable, though of course the R&D investment is going to take a while to recover -- that is until they get per unit down and margin up. Tesla likely has their per-unit lower, but they also tend to sell vehicles for at least $50k (excluding federal rebates which affect the consumer, not the maker).

Higher margins on more expensive (and larger) products isn't new. Tesla had the right game plan early - very expensive, lower volume vehicles for a long time before they started to sell $50k Model 3s (almost 9 years from the first Roadster). Nissan and GM jumped into "volume" vehicles early with the Leaf and Bolt, but didn't really sell nearly enough for that plan to work out. Now they're switching to the expensive vehicles for now to try to capture some "leading edge" profit margins... some 11+ years after Tesla starting selling the Model S.

Overall I've been caught off guard by the public's willingness to buy $50k+ Tesla sedans (and in general, the rapidly escalating mean new car price!) But I can't say I'm surprised that GM and Ford are struggling with EV platform production scaling. Tesla struggled with it, too. Three years into Model 3 production, they were still under 500k units globally. Six years in, and they've got a handle on it. What will surprise me is if people just keep on buying Model 3 and Model Y, because my premise has always been that when it comes to cars, people like variety, which is how there are just so many car brands, and how companies like GM and Toyota manage to have four, five, six variety of SUV with slightly different styles, capacities, etc. and they somehow all sell well. It has always led me to believe that Tesla would run out of steam. But there seems to be a rather large appetite for electric vehicles and no one else is currently capable of fulfilling that market need.

Any successful ramping up of production capacity by any of the big players should get them much closer to profitability and staying competitive. Range and charging infrastructure have rapidly become less and less of a bottleneck for selling these vehicles. I wish I was smart enough to predict what happens next, but the car buying public seems to have changed what they care about and what they're willing to pay for.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3433 on: August 12, 2023, 07:30:56 AM »
You seem to be arguing for your personal use case when I am speaking more broadly about the public response to the polls that 2sk22 quoted and the broader question of this thread. Yes, absolutely there are use cases where EVs have bigger drawbacks than is typical. You may indeed be one.

As for broken chargers, that’s where “plan your route comes in”. Simple enough to see whether a station has been online recently, and to have more than a singular recharging option. As for having to walk “several blocks” for overnight charging (or get a Lyft/Uber for the “last mile”) - yes that’s a potential annoyance, but I personally find it fairly minor, particularly if you consider the money saved on a 500 mile round trip over ICE. Others may value the inconvenience/savings factor differently.

You'd think, but one of the recent stations I was at had four chargers and three of them weren't charging any faster than ~30kW.  The fastest one (150kW rated) was doing about 90kW (I switched to that when the person using it left).  I called (I think it was EA but I don't remember now) and they said all their chargers were reporting as fine...they were clearly not.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3434 on: August 12, 2023, 07:33:56 AM »
Am I the only one who thinks we are marketing and building EVs all wrong?  The manufacturers seem to be in an EV range arms race to make the biggest, heaviest, longest range vehicles. We are agonizing over infrastructure to allow for long range road trips.  We seem to be ignoring that most Americans live in households with two or more cars. Most live in single family homes and thus have access to home charging. The average commute is less than 30 minutes each way. It seems to me that we should be concentrating our efforts on making EVs with modest range (say 150 miles) that are lighter and cheaper. I'm guessing that the auto makers have done market research that tells them consumers want big long range vehicles, but what have they done to influence the market? 
The other marketing mistake is focusing on environmental issues. Half the country is in denial about climate change and the need to reduce fossil fuel consumption. Maybe we'd get more traction if we started emphasizing things like energy independence and national security. If we can get half of our cars running on electricity that can be produced by renewables, natural gas or even, god forbid, coal, we could largely insulate ourselves from hostile nations like Russia and Saudi Arabia manipulating the price of oil.

I completely agree with you! I think EVs with smaller batteries and PHEVs will work better for a lot of people and save overall on energy costs.

I agree too. My EV "obsession" is a small forward controls truck smaller than a 1960s VW van that has a top speed of 60 mph. I think their specs are impossible but I'm willing to daydream that it could be possible. A solar panel incorporated into the roof helps add miles to the range they claim. (XBus "pickup Bus").

Would be perfect in the small town where I live. My coworker drives a 1990s miniature forward controls Japanese (JDM) truck. If that is legal, why not the XBus? Hope they make it to market and it isn't vaporware. 

I fully expect our government here in the :"Land of the Free" will slap the Chicken Tax on it or declare it hazardous to consumers and refuse to allow it to be imported. Meanwhile a hot rod guy can drag an old car out of a field and make a myriad of custom changes that potentially compromise its safety, and half ass repairs - and that is 50-states legal. -eye roll-

(I'm not down on the hot rod guy, I'm related to a bunch of those folks and I count myself as one).

lol, we all know why - because money!

RWD

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3435 on: August 12, 2023, 07:41:02 AM »
Am I the only one who thinks we are marketing and building EVs all wrong?  The manufacturers seem to be in an EV range arms race to make the biggest, heaviest, longest range vehicles. We are agonizing over infrastructure to allow for long range road trips.  We seem to be ignoring that most Americans live in households with two or more cars. Most live in single family homes and thus have access to home charging. The average commute is less than 30 minutes each way. It seems to me that we should be concentrating our efforts on making EVs with modest range (say 150 miles) that are lighter and cheaper. I'm guessing that the auto makers have done market research that tells them consumers want big long range vehicles, but what have they done to influence the market? 
The other marketing mistake is focusing on environmental issues. Half the country is in denial about climate change and the need to reduce fossil fuel consumption. Maybe we'd get more traction if we started emphasizing things like energy independence and national security. If we can get half of our cars running on electricity that can be produced by renewables, natural gas or even, god forbid, coal, we could largely insulate ourselves from hostile nations like Russia and Saudi Arabia manipulating the price of oil.

I completely agree with you! I think EVs with smaller batteries and PHEVs will work better for a lot of people and save overall on energy costs.

I agree too. My EV "obsession" is a small forward controls truck smaller than a 1960s VW van that has a top speed of 60 mph. I think their specs are impossible but I'm willing to daydream that it could be possible. A solar panel incorporated into the roof helps add miles to the range they claim. (XBus "pickup Bus").

Would be perfect in the small town where I live. My coworker drives a 1990s miniature forward controls Japanese (JDM) truck. If that is legal, why not the XBus? Hope they make it to market and it isn't vaporware. 

I fully expect our government here in the :"Land of the Free" will slap the Chicken Tax on it or declare it hazardous to consumers and refuse to allow it to be imported. Meanwhile a hot rod guy can drag an old car out of a field and make a myriad of custom changes that potentially compromise its safety, and half ass repairs - and that is 50-states legal. -eye roll-

(I'm not down on the hot rod guy, I'm related to a bunch of those folks and I count myself as one).

A JDM Kei truck is not road legal when new. Your coworker's truck is only legal because of the 25-year rule on imports. Anything newer than 25-years old has to meet all the US safety and emissions standards. But older than 25 anything goes. You could get a newer Kei truck here but only for off-road use, if I understand correctly (e.g. for farm use).

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3436 on: August 12, 2023, 08:53:45 AM »
Truck Troubles

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/electric-vehicle-trip-charging-infrastructure-1.6932074

I used to live not far from Elk River.  I guess the cities have largely expanded that way.  You would think there would be a lot of good charging stations thereabouts.  The article didn't sell me on electric trucks.

geekette

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3437 on: August 12, 2023, 09:19:44 AM »
Technology Connections' take on the potential standardization of charging plugs in the US, and how he hopes charging infrastructure will evolve. 
« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 09:21:48 AM by geekette »

NorCal

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3438 on: August 12, 2023, 09:37:14 PM »
One thing that struck me is just how quick this is changing.  The things that are massive issues today will largely be non-issues in a few years.

I was looking at routes from my home in Denver to Glacier National Park when I was researching some EV options maybe 6-9 months ago.  It wasn't really feasible with fast charging, but maybe could have happened if I found places I could charge overnight.  Wyoming in particular was a charging desert and Montana was only slightly better.

I checked A Better Route Planner for the same route just now.  I now have at least three reasonable routes to take, including a route through Yellowstone.  It doesn't mean it's all rainbows and unicorns.  There's a few long stretches that will require charging well above 80% (which is when charging slows down significantly), and there are a few locations where a DCFC failure would put a crimp in your plans (likely requiring an overnight stop in a hotel with a charger). 

But someone who buys an EV today will have a much better charging situation in six months than they have today. 

Tyson

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3439 on: August 12, 2023, 11:57:27 PM »
Am I the only one who thinks we are marketing and building EVs all wrong?  The manufacturers seem to be in an EV range arms race to make the biggest, heaviest, longest range vehicles. We are agonizing over infrastructure to allow for long range road trips.  We seem to be ignoring that most Americans live in households with two or more cars. Most live in single family homes and thus have access to home charging. The average commute is less than 30 minutes each way. It seems to me that we should be concentrating our efforts on making EVs with modest range (say 150 miles) that are lighter and cheaper. I'm guessing that the auto makers have done market research that tells them consumers want big long range vehicles, but what have they done to influence the market? 
The other marketing mistake is focusing on environmental issues. Half the country is in denial about climate change and the need to reduce fossil fuel consumption. Maybe we'd get more traction if we started emphasizing things like energy independence and national security. If we can get half of our cars running on electricity that can be produced by renewables, natural gas or even, god forbid, coal, we could largely insulate ourselves from hostile nations like Russia and Saudi Arabia manipulating the price of oil.

I completely agree with you! I think EVs with smaller batteries and PHEVs will work better for a lot of people and save overall on energy costs.

I agree too. My EV "obsession" is a small forward controls truck smaller than a 1960s VW van that has a top speed of 60 mph. I think their specs are impossible but I'm willing to daydream that it could be possible. A solar panel incorporated into the roof helps add miles to the range they claim. (XBus "pickup Bus").

Would be perfect in the small town where I live. My coworker drives a 1990s miniature forward controls Japanese (JDM) truck. If that is legal, why not the XBus? Hope they make it to market and it isn't vaporware. 

I fully expect our government here in the :"Land of the Free" will slap the Chicken Tax on it or declare it hazardous to consumers and refuse to allow it to be imported. Meanwhile a hot rod guy can drag an old car out of a field and make a myriad of custom changes that potentially compromise its safety, and half ass repairs - and that is 50-states legal. -eye roll-

(I'm not down on the hot rod guy, I'm related to a bunch of those folks and I count myself as one).

This is coming, looks like $39k before any rebates - https://www.canoo.com/canoo/

2sk22

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3440 on: August 13, 2023, 03:21:55 AM »
Technology Connections' take on the potential standardization of charging plugs in the US, and how he hopes charging infrastructure will evolve.

I also am a fan of Alec Watson - always watch his videos. This was an exceptionally useful video and addressed most of my questions about plugs and charging.

I was also glad that he mentioned a problem that occurred to me: fast chargers are typically uncovered in the middle of a parking lot. Getting a charge while on a road trip when it's raining would not be pleasant. On a recent long distance trip in my ICE car, we had to fill up gas when raining a couple of times. I would not like to get soaked having to go out in the rain to plug in my vehicle. Having some kind of an awning would be much appreciated.

He notes that that fast charging stations will have to become like current gas stations which I think is right on the mark. The main problem with this however is that fast charging takes a lot longer than filling up gas so many more charging stalls will be necessary to serve the same volume of cars. So charging stations will require more area. This is not a problem on a rural interstate but would absolutely be a problem in more densely populated area.


NorCal

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3441 on: August 13, 2023, 08:01:07 AM »
Technology Connections' take on the potential standardization of charging plugs in the US, and how he hopes charging infrastructure will evolve.

I also am a fan of Alec Watson - always watch his videos. This was an exceptionally useful video and addressed most of my questions about plugs and charging.

I was also glad that he mentioned a problem that occurred to me: fast chargers are typically uncovered in the middle of a parking lot. Getting a charge while on a road trip when it's raining would not be pleasant. On a recent long distance trip in my ICE car, we had to fill up gas when raining a couple of times. I would not like to get soaked having to go out in the rain to plug in my vehicle. Having some kind of an awning would be much appreciated.

He notes that that fast charging stations will have to become like current gas stations which I think is right on the mark. The main problem with this however is that fast charging takes a lot longer than filling up gas so many more charging stalls will be necessary to serve the same volume of cars. So charging stations will require more area. This is not a problem on a rural interstate but would absolutely be a problem in more densely populated area.

I actually think it's playing out in reverse of this.

I agree that covers/shades would be nice.  But gas stations don't have them because they're convenient.  It's because they're required to provide shelter in order to prevent gas spills from being washed into storm drains.  And chargers can really be put in any existing parking lot since they don't have the infrastructure needs of underground fuel tanks.  So chargers can really just be distributed among the parking lots of existing businesses. 

I see this happening in real time, as I live in an urban area, near a freeway, with lots of new commercial construction.  Just in the last year we've had DCFC's installed at a new gas station, grocery store, In & Out and Costco all within a few miles of my house.  DCFC's are going in incredibly quick in urban areas with high EV penetration.  And since EV drivers charge ~80% at home on average, it won't require that many DCFC's.    Although it will make holiday travel painful when everyone is on the road at the same time. 

Urban areas are also easier to build DCFC's in, as the infrastructure behind the charger is already configured for industrial grade hookups, and these areas are served by large public utilities that can invest capital in expansion.

In contrast, DCFC's are fairly difficult to install in rural areas.  As an extreme example, a small town with 200 people along a major interstate might have had their power needs established in the 1950's before home air conditioning was a thing.  And they're probably served by a tiny utility that doesn't have a lot of capital to deploy for improvements.  A city like this would have thousands of cars passing by in a hour.  But DCFC's are nearly impossible to install because the transformers and even the medium duty power lines run to the nearest substation are maybe sized for the energy needs of 30 years ago.  The power needs of a significant EV charging stop might be larger than the power needs of the town itself.  These power upgrades can quickly add up into the millions.  The problem of today is getting a station of 2-4 chargers installed in underserved rural towns.  The problem of tomorrow is getting hundreds of chargers installed in these small towns along major travel corridors.  It's not a small logistical lift. 

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3442 on: August 13, 2023, 11:02:04 AM »
Technology Connections' take on the potential standardization of charging plugs in the US, and how he hopes charging infrastructure will evolve.

I also am a fan of Alec Watson - always watch his videos. This was an exceptionally useful video and addressed most of my questions about plugs and charging.

I was also glad that he mentioned a problem that occurred to me: fast chargers are typically uncovered in the middle of a parking lot. Getting a charge while on a road trip when it's raining would not be pleasant. On a recent long distance trip in my ICE car, we had to fill up gas when raining a couple of times. I would not like to get soaked having to go out in the rain to plug in my vehicle. Having some kind of an awning would be much appreciated.

He notes that that fast charging stations will have to become like current gas stations which I think is right on the mark. The main problem with this however is that fast charging takes a lot longer than filling up gas so many more charging stalls will be necessary to serve the same volume of cars. So charging stations will require more area. This is not a problem on a rural interstate but would absolutely be a problem in more densely populated area.

I actually think it's playing out in reverse of this.

I agree that covers/shades would be nice.  But gas stations don't have them because they're convenient.  It's because they're required to provide shelter in order to prevent gas spills from being washed into storm drains.  And chargers can really be put in any existing parking lot since they don't have the infrastructure needs of underground fuel tanks.  So chargers can really just be distributed among the parking lots of existing businesses. 

I see this happening in real time, as I live in an urban area, near a freeway, with lots of new commercial construction.  Just in the last year we've had DCFC's installed at a new gas station, grocery store, In & Out and Costco all within a few miles of my house.  DCFC's are going in incredibly quick in urban areas with high EV penetration.  And since EV drivers charge ~80% at home on average, it won't require that many DCFC's.    Although it will make holiday travel painful when everyone is on the road at the same time. 

Urban areas are also easier to build DCFC's in, as the infrastructure behind the charger is already configured for industrial grade hookups, and these areas are served by large public utilities that can invest capital in expansion.

In contrast, DCFC's are fairly difficult to install in rural areas.  As an extreme example, a small town with 200 people along a major interstate might have had their power needs established in the 1950's before home air conditioning was a thing.  And they're probably served by a tiny utility that doesn't have a lot of capital to deploy for improvements.  A city like this would have thousands of cars passing by in a hour.  But DCFC's are nearly impossible to install because the transformers and even the medium duty power lines run to the nearest substation are maybe sized for the energy needs of 30 years ago.  The power needs of a significant EV charging stop might be larger than the power needs of the town itself.  These power upgrades can quickly add up into the millions.  The problem of today is getting a station of 2-4 chargers installed in underserved rural towns.  The problem of tomorrow is getting hundreds of chargers installed in these small towns along major travel corridors.  It's not a small logistical lift.

This paragraph reminded me of what I read about California's gold rush.  Most of the people who got rich weren't the gold miners but the people who supplied them with what they needed.  So, maybe the money is not to be made from electric cars but the building and supplying of the charging needs for said cars.  I'm sure many of you have previously thought of this.  So who are the manufacturers and suppliers of this charging equipment?

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3443 on: August 13, 2023, 11:20:13 AM »
This is coming, looks like $39k before any rebates - https://www.canoo.com/canoo/

I've seen those on YouTube. Still, larger and heavier than I need. More dollars required too. Otherwise I like the concept.

LD_TAndK

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3444 on: August 14, 2023, 03:45:11 AM »
...
I agree that covers/shades would be nice.  But gas stations don't have them because they're convenient.  It's because they're required to provide shelter in order to prevent gas spills from being washed into storm drains.
...

Gas station canopies are also a required self-contained fire suppression system and store tanks of fire fighting agent.

Some Tesla chargers have solar panel canopies and some also have battery backup systems that can charge from the panels to smooth out peak demand from their superchargers. Really neat stuff.

« Last Edit: August 14, 2023, 04:07:28 AM by LD_TAndK »

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3445 on: August 14, 2023, 06:05:33 AM »
I find it annoying when someone leaves their vehicle at the gas pump and goes inside to shop/restroom or whatever when I am waiting for an open slot. Do people come across chargers with fully charged vehicles sitting there with nobody around for extended times? Do chargers display for the public to see any information? (charge state, time to completion, start time, etc.?)

dandarc

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3446 on: August 14, 2023, 07:14:14 AM »
I find it annoying when someone leaves their vehicle at the gas pump and goes inside to shop/restroom or whatever when I am waiting for an open slot. Do people come across chargers with fully charged vehicles sitting there with nobody around for extended times? Do chargers display for the public to see any information? (charge state, time to completion, start time, etc.?)
I once found a Nissan Leaf on the free 50kw charger at work and it said it had been on there for 10 hours. And another time the 4 non-tesla chargers at our airport were all occupied by cars not charging - including one car I swear I saw in the same spot when I dropped my wife off the week before. The airport one was much more annoying because I just unplugged the one at work, charged my car for 15 minutes and left.

My complaint lately - at the office we've got the 1 fast charger mentioned above, 2 spots with 120v outlets and 2 spots with RV plugs (30 amp, 240v I believe) - I'm set up where I can use any of them. But for a couple of months now, those two level-2 capable plugs are not working. I mean, all of these are free and I don't depend on these spots, but I do like to avail myself of that $2 of free electricity from time to time and its much harder now with demand going up as more EVs are around locally and supply going down with the disrepair situation.

geekette

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3447 on: August 14, 2023, 07:18:29 AM »
I’ve seen commercial chargers with idle fees, but that doesn’t help when they’re blocked with ICE cars, which is probably why they’re often in the boonies.

waltworks

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3448 on: August 14, 2023, 08:16:27 AM »
Sigh, my 2017 Leaf is rapidly becoming obsolete. Luckily we mostly charge it on 120v plug at the house and just drive it within the county.

Maybe there will be a Chademo to NACS adapter someday... that should be hilarious looking.

-W

NorCal

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #3449 on: August 14, 2023, 09:55:14 PM »
I find it annoying when someone leaves their vehicle at the gas pump and goes inside to shop/restroom or whatever when I am waiting for an open slot. Do people come across chargers with fully charged vehicles sitting there with nobody around for extended times? Do chargers display for the public to see any information? (charge state, time to completion, start time, etc.?)

I forget exactly what they display, but it usually includes at least the current charge state of the car, whether it's actively charging, and the charge speed.  This is usually mirrored by similar charging info shown on the cars internal display with the information visible to anyone walking by the car. 

It's becoming a thing to see EV's parked in charging spots but not even plugged in.  It doens't seem to be super common, but there's enough pictures floating around on the internet to show it's not just a one-off thing.

Charging etiquette is evolving and heavily debated online.  I've seen a few online discussions about how to handle hotel chargers, charging past 80% (which is slower) when others are waiting, and whether those who get free Electrify America credits included with the car should really be using fast chargers for daily charging at busy stations.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!