Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[MasterStache]

I am very impressed by electric cars having had my 2014 Leaf for over 2 years now. Bought it with 11 battery bars and it still has 11 battery bars. Can't believe it hasn't dropped to 10. The car will be 7 years old and has 50K miles. Only maintenance has been the air filter and tire rotation.

[sherr]

In my neck of the woods (rural, northern NE) I’ve watched as Tesla has put several stations in very remote locations (e.g. in towns with <2,000 people surrounded by farms).  I believe they are doing so strategically in order to say something like “you’ll never be more than 100 miles from a supercharger” or other marketing strategy targeted at combating ‘range anxiety’.  I’ve passed by two such charging stations and have never seen more than 1 vehicle actively charging (they each have 6 chargers I believe...)

Those towns are along highways I would assume, maybe at the intersection of two highways? Locals don't really use Superchargers, it's almost exclusively for people passing through on a road trip. So the size of the town is pretty irrelevant.

[nereo]

In my neck of the woods (rural, northern NE) I’ve watched as Tesla has put several stations in very remote locations (e.g. in towns with <2,000 people surrounded by farms).  I believe they are doing so strategically in order to say something like “you’ll never be more than 100 miles from a supercharger” or other marketing strategy targeted at combating ‘range anxiety’.  I’ve passed by two such charging stations and have never seen more than 1 vehicle actively charging (they each have 6 chargers I believe...)

Those towns are along highways I would assume? Locals don't really use Superchargers, it's almost exclusively for people passing through on a road trip. So the size of the town is pretty irrelevant.

These are towns along highways, but these aren't "on the way" to anywhere (at least not any larger metropolitan areas).  These aren't routes that are between major cities (or even between large towns).
Looking at them on a map their placement strikes me as deliberate to have near 100% coverage within a give driving range, though the locals frequently deride them as "always empty" and "a stupid place for Tesla".

[sherr]

My point is there is only 1 supercharger, which I just Google mapped and it has 6 stalls. So on a holiday weekend what’s the wait time like?  What if it’s down?  What are the odds I drive three hours to get there and have no choice but to wait an hour for a slot to open before I can even start charging? 

I mean I have no idea if that's a problem or not. I've only heard about full superchargers being a consistent problem in a few places out in California though. You could always stop by and see how busy it is the next time you drive up on a holiday weekend.

As for "what if it's down", well that's very unlikely. But assuming the power isn't out in the entire area the other option would be to stop for lunch somewhere that has an L2 charger and let your car charge for an hour or so.

[JLee]

My point is there is only 1 supercharger, which I just Google mapped and it has 6 stalls. So on a holiday weekend what’s the wait time like?  What if it’s down?  What are the odds I drive three hours to get there and have no choice but to wait an hour for a slot to open before I can even start charging? 

I mean I have no idea if that's a problem or not. I've only heard about full superchargers being a consistent problem in a few places out in California though. You could always stop by and see how busy it is the next time you drive up on a holiday weekend.

As for "what if it's down", well that's very unlikely. But assuming the power isn't out in the entire area the other option would be to stop for lunch somewhere that has an L2 charger and let your car charge for an hour or so.

If power is out in the entire area, gas stations will likely have no power either. That would be unfortunate, though, as you'd have farther to go to find another supercharger vs a gas station that did have power.

[JLee]

Yes that I understand.

My point is there is only 1 supercharger, which I just Google mapped and it has 6 stalls. So on a holiday weekend what’s the wait time like?  What if it’s down?  What are the odds I drive three hours to get there and have no choice but to wait an hour for a slot to open before I can even start charging? 

That’s my point.  If there were ten charging stations to chose from, okay. But there’s one station.  I need more possibilities before it’s a good option.

This could be very regionally dependent, but the chargers by me are never full. There's one a mile from my house with 4 chargers and in the > 1 year it's been there I have seen exactly one car charging at it. The Tesla station in my town tends to be a little more crowded, but I don't think I've ever seen it more than half full

Also, I couldn't help but laugh a bit at the first world problem of "what if I have to wait in line to charge my fancy electric car on my way to my second home?". I get it, it would be frustrating to wait an hour in all the chargers were in use, but very first world problem

Given that a sub-35% Tesla will recharge at ~530 miles / hour on a supercharger, the wait wouldn't be all that long unless there was a significant line.  I stopped around 33% (had free supercharger miles remaining so I went a little out of my way to find one vs recharging at home) and was nearly at 90% after I picked up some food, ate it, and relaxed for a few minutes.  They're crazy fast and also force you to take short breaks, which I've found I rather enjoy.

[RWD]

For me my reluctance to embrace EVs comes from the comparatively high cost, the extremely heavy weight and the generally lacklustre dynamics (Taycan aside). And also lack of an exhaust note. But I'm a very niche type of car person.

The BMW i3 is only 2,600 lb (1,200 kg). And it's even RWD! Too bad it's styling is so polarizing and it has those unique expensive skinny tires...

[Frugal Lizard]

We were told that trickle charging prolonged battery life and we only had one outlet in the garage for the longest time and we are just in the habit of overnight charging. 

Our house only had a small electrical service (80amp).  We upped our service to 200amp last fall and added the level 2 charger that came with the used Leaf.  Since that cord is behind the trickle charge cord, and three bikes are often in the way, we just reach for the one in front. 

[Just Joe]

Yes that I understand.

My point is there is only 1 supercharger, which I just Google mapped and it has 6 stalls. So on a holiday weekend what’s the wait time like?  What if it’s down?  What are the odds I drive three hours to get there and have no choice but to wait an hour for a slot to open before I can even start charging? 

That’s my point.  If there were ten charging stations to chose from, okay. But there’s one station.  I need more possibilities before it’s a good option.

That's the price you pay for a popular brand and a limited number of branded chargers. ;)

FWIW the Tesla driver that showed me his car has an adapter so he can plug into a CCS port at any fast charger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System

[nereo]

For me my reluctance to embrace EVs comes from the comparatively high cost, the extremely heavy weight and the generally lacklustre dynamics (Taycan aside). And also lack of an exhaust note. But I'm a very niche type of car person.

The BMW i3 is only 2,600 lb (1,200 kg). And it's even RWD! Too bad it's styling is so polarizing and it has those unique expensive skinny tires...

Ok @RWD - what is it that you love so much about RWD?

[Just Joe]

I don't think range anxiety is much of a factor any more if you live in a metropolitan area. Heaps of charging stations.

For me my reluctance to embrace EVs comes from the comparatively high cost, the extremely heavy weight and the generally lacklustre dynamics (Taycan aside). And also lack of an exhaust note. But I'm a very niche type of car person.

Heavy weight: depends on what you choose to drive. The Leaf is ~3500 lbs. Similar weight to our first gen CRV which is tiny relative to 2020 crossovers.

I'm not worried about the weight of the EV if the performance and range meets our expectations. In time the battery pack will get lighter or smaller as the technology matures.

If a modern compact gas car was exceptionally heavy and had performance problems rendering it similar to driving a 50HP aircooled VW Beetle - I'd be concerned.

In the Leaf the extra weight simply means it rides better IMHO than a standard lightweight gas compact car. Don't get me wrong - I like the flyweight cars too. They have their own charms.

[Just Joe]

In my neck of the woods (rural, northern NE) I’ve watched as Tesla has put several stations in very remote locations (e.g. in towns with <2,000 people surrounded by farms).  I believe they are doing so strategically in order to say something like “you’ll never be more than 100 miles from a supercharger” or other marketing strategy targeted at combating ‘range anxiety’.  I’ve passed by two such charging stations and have never seen more than 1 vehicle actively charging (they each have 6 chargers I believe...)

Those towns are along highways I would assume? Locals don't really use Superchargers, it's almost exclusively for people passing through on a road trip. So the size of the town is pretty irrelevant.

These are towns along highways, but these aren't "on the way" to anywhere (at least not any larger metropolitan areas).  These aren't routes that are between major cities (or even between large towns).
Looking at them on a map their placement strikes me as deliberate to have near 100% coverage within a give driving range, though the locals frequently deride them as "always empty" and "a stupid place for Tesla".

Our town has Tesla chargers and there is perhaps one, maybe two Teslas. The Teslas I see here - on a daily basis - are always from a wealthier county ~125 miles from here or out of state. Seems like Tesla should have put the chargers near one of the town's coffee shops. In that regard I'd argue they did it wrong here too. Perhaps coffee shops > fast food for Tesla drivers.

[Bloop Bloop]

For me my reluctance to embrace EVs comes from the comparatively high cost, the extremely heavy weight and the generally lacklustre dynamics (Taycan aside). And also lack of an exhaust note. But I'm a very niche type of car person.

The BMW i3 is only 2,600 lb (1,200 kg). And it's even RWD! Too bad it's styling is so polarizing and it has those unique expensive skinny tires...

Ok @RWD - what is it that you love so much about RWD?

I'm not RWD but I can try to explain. It just feels better to drive. Especially on twisty roads.

[RWD]

For me my reluctance to embrace EVs comes from the comparatively high cost, the extremely heavy weight and the generally lacklustre dynamics (Taycan aside). And also lack of an exhaust note. But I'm a very niche type of car person.

The BMW i3 is only 2,600 lb (1,200 kg). And it's even RWD! Too bad it's styling is so polarizing and it has those unique expensive skinny tires...

Ok @RWD - what is it that you love so much about RWD?

I'm not RWD but I can try to explain. It just feels better to drive. Especially on twisty roads.

In a front-wheel drive car the front pair of wheels are tasked with both acceleration and turning. This leads to a number of inherent side-effects:
1) Physical limits of grip is reached sooner when trying to accelerate and corner at the same time
2) Front tires will lose grip sooner while cornering causing understeer (feels like you're suddenly on a sled with no control).
3) Torque-steer. When accelerating the tires will try to turn the steering wheel to one side. I've even experienced this at highway speeds before and it can be scary.

Some of the traditional benefits of the front-engine front-wheel drive layout like easier packaging and higher fuel economy (less drivetrain loss) don't apply to electric cars. Electric cars don't need a driveshaft to redirect the power from an engine in the front to the rear wheels. I imagine the main reason to go with FWD on an electric car is because it's what people are used to in their economy cars.

All-wheel drive vehicles solve most of the FWD problems but they also take a hit to fuel economy due to more drivetrain loss and higher weight. The higher weight also makes the handling feel worse. Some AWD vehicles are also based on FWD platforms and actually handle more like a FWD car most of the time. For an electric car AWD makes a lot of sense because the designers can control where the power goes electronically instead of having to rely on physical connections between the front and rear axles. In theory an electric car with AWD can have the best of both the FWD and RWD worlds plus more traction under acceleration.

Rear-wheel drive is traditionally the perfect layout because you leave the steering to the front wheels and the power to the back wheels. In comparison to FWD the handling is much better. Acceleration is better (weight transfers to the rear axle under acceleration). Also you can power oversteer which is fun.

[nereo]

Thanks for the info!~

[Chris22]

My point is there is only 1 supercharger, which I just Google mapped and it has 6 stalls. So on a holiday weekend what’s the wait time like?  What if it’s down?  What are the odds I drive three hours to get there and have no choice but to wait an hour for a slot to open before I can even start charging? 

I mean I have no idea if that's a problem or not. I've only heard about full superchargers being a consistent problem in a few places out in California though. You could always stop by and see how busy it is the next time you drive up on a holiday weekend.


Gas stations and fast food places right off the Highway are congested on holiday weekends in these areas, it doesn’t take too much to clog up a 6-slot Supercharger.

As far as the stations being down, I dunno. I read several reviews a few years ago about people having problems with recharging stations being inoperable upon arrival. No idea if that is applicable to Tesla Superchargers or not.  But it’s not that hard to imagine; how many times have you gotten to a gas pump and for whatever reason that pump is down. Not the whole station, but a pump. Not a big deal, you pick a different one of the zillion available. But if there are only 6...
As for "what if it's down", well that's very unlikely. But assuming the power isn't out in the entire area the other option would be to stop for lunch somewhere that has an L2 charger and let your car charge for an hour or so.

[Chris22]

Yes that I understand.

My point is there is only 1 supercharger, which I just Google mapped and it has 6 stalls. So on a holiday weekend what’s the wait time like?  What if it’s down?  What are the odds I drive three hours to get there and have no choice but to wait an hour for a slot to open before I can even start charging? 

That’s my point.  If there were ten charging stations to chose from, okay. But there’s one station.  I need more possibilities before it’s a good option.

That's the price you pay for a popular brand and a limited number of branded chargers. ;)

FWIW the Tesla driver that showed me his car has an adapter so he can plug into a CCS port at any fast charger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System

On the Tesla map they showed other chargers too; there were none of those near where this Supercharger was. Plenty of options at both ends of the trip, nothing in the middle.

[Chris22]

Yes that I understand.

My point is there is only 1 supercharger, which I just Google mapped and it has 6 stalls. So on a holiday weekend what’s the wait time like?  What if it’s down?  What are the odds I drive three hours to get there and have no choice but to wait an hour for a slot to open before I can even start charging? 

That’s my point.  If there were ten charging stations to chose from, okay. But there’s one station.  I need more possibilities before it’s a good option.

This could be very regionally dependent, but the chargers by me are never full. There's one a mile from my house with 4 chargers and in the > 1 year it's been there I have seen exactly one car charging at it. The Tesla station in my town tends to be a little more crowded, but I don't think I've ever seen it more than half full

Also, I couldn't help but laugh a bit at the first world problem of "what if I have to wait in line to charge my fancy electric car on my way to my second home?". I get it, it would be frustrating to wait an hour in all the chargers were in use, but very first world problem

The time I had a Tesla the supercharger was congested, but not full, on a random Saturday afternoon.

It is 100% a first world problem, but it’s what keeps me out of an EV, and it’s unfortunate. I really want a Tesla, but it is unworkable for me at this time.

Also, it’s not just a matter of “well just wait”, it’s a safety thing. We usually drive up after work, and it’s a 5-6hr drive.  Leave at 7PM and you’re here around 1230-1AM. Adding another hour to that trip just makes it harder to stay awake driving in the deer-filled woods.

[pecunia]

I don't own an electric vehicle not even a hybrid.  I bought another vehicle last December and did look at hybrids.  I guess one thing hybrids share with the solely electric vehicles are these big orange cables.

In the car i looked at the cable would carry about 200 volts.  Jeepers! I thought.  I drive through deep snow and puddles.  Electricity and water can make for a poor mix.  I've had cables chafe in cars and short out due to the vibration they see in driving.

In looking over You Tube videos electric vehicles are getting increased range by raising this voltage to maybe 800 volts.  This allows for smaller wiring and the motors can have a smaller size.  The lower weight gives less mass to move and so you get a longer range.  However, the idea of riding in a conductive metal box with nearly a kilo-volt gives me pause.

I realize that my internal combustion engine depends on a highly flammable material to operate, but there are millions of person hours of operation refining these designs.

Anybody ever hear of shock accidents from electric cars?

[nereo]

I don't own an electric vehicle not even a hybrid.  I bought another vehicle last December and did look at hybrids.  I guess one thing hybrids share with the solely electric vehicles are these big orange cables.

In the car i looked at the cable would carry about 200 volts.  Jeepers! I thought.  I drive through deep snow and puddles.  Electricity and water can make for a poor mix.  I've had cables chafe in cars and short out due to the vibration they see in driving.

In looking over You Tube videos electric vehicles are getting increased range by raising this voltage to maybe 800 volts.  This allows for smaller wiring and the motors can have a smaller size.  The lower weight gives less mass to move and so you get a longer range.  However, the idea of riding in a conductive metal box with nearly a kilo-volt gives me pause.

I realize that my internal combustion engine depends on a highly flammable material to operate, but there are millions of person hours of operation refining these designs.

Anybody ever hear of shock accidents from electric cars?

Electric motors and technology is not new. Electric motors has been around for more than a 100 years, as long as ICE technology. The science and engineering is well studied and well known.

I am an electrical/electronics engineer by training. I think an electric car is safer than an ICE car.

Yeah, I’m of a similar mind.  I think in another quarter-century kids are going to be amazed that just about anyone could drive a multi-ton contraption at high speeds with over a hundred pounds of explosive liquid and without any sort of computerized control systems.  ICE vehicles can and do catch fire, particularly in accidents.

I’ve got a 2 year old daughter - the other day my father asked if I’d let her get a drivers license when she turned 16 just like I did.  My response was: I’m skeptical that we’ll still rely on human operators for passenger vehicles in 14 years.
In the same vein I hope ICE vehicles will be reduced to used be holes plus a speciality niche market in a couple decades. I think a good strategy would be to aim for a near-complete phaseout of ICE vehicles by 2030.

[rocketpj]

I’ve got a 2 year old daughter - the other day my father asked if I’d let her get a drivers license when she turned 16 just like I did.  My response was: I’m skeptical that we’ll still rely on human operators for passenger vehicles in 14 years.
In the same vein I hope ICE vehicles will be reduced to used be holes plus a speciality niche market in a couple decades. I think a good strategy would be to aim for a near-complete phaseout of ICE vehicles by 2030.

I'm inclined to agree with you in terms of goals.  No idea when we'll have fully automated vehicles as a default, probably not until after the generation that grew up venerating the muscle car/personal identity overlap fades away.

I'd love to see ICE phase out asap, for many obvious reasons.  There will of course be the continually hyped 'range anxiety', but I can see it shifting to ICE when demand for gas starts to make fuel stations less viable.

Until then there will be the endless parade of people who say 'I might want to drive the ice road to Yellowknife someday, so no EV for me!' despite it being an extreme edge case.

[tj]

I was wondering - how long does it usually take to charge at a charging station? I'm assuming it takes quite a bit longer than pumping a tank of gas.

I'm moving back to California and with so many incentives - $4.5k CVAP, $3.5k CVRP, $1k in charging station credit, $1k from the electric company and the federal tax credit, it gets to be pretty damn cheap. I'm thinking about Honda Clarity Plug In, Hyundai Ioniq Plug In, Prius Prime Plug In or Ford Fusion Plug In, but living in an apartment, even it has charging stations - I don't know how often one would need to use the charging station and how long it takes. Although it may not matter, it seems like the state is basically paying people to to buy one of these even if you never charge the battery other than via the gas engine.

Some of those state incentives can be utilized for used cars, but I don't know if they are any cheaper.

[Bloop Bloop]

I don't want ICE vehicles phased out. The sound and fury of a flat 6, v8, v10 or v12 engine is a glorious thing, especially as it nears 8000 or 9000. I'm happy to pay a gas guzzler tax for the privilege of using one, but until people get taxed on their 3rd and subsequent children (because it's selfish to have that many children), it seems silly to me to ban the use or sale of ICE cars.

[nereo]

I was wondering - how long does it usually take to charge at a charging station? I'm assuming it takes quite a bit longer than pumping a tank of gas.


Some of those state incentives can be utilized for used cars, but I don't know if they are any cheaper.

There’sa lot of info on charging times in this thread. The short answer is “it depends”. It matters what kind of charger you are using, from “standard household 110v 15 amp” (many, many hours) to the new DC super chargers. It also matters where the battery is in terms of charge. A battery will charge from 20% to 80% capacity faster than from 80% to 100%

From a more practical side, the WAY refueling is done in a BEV  differs from an ICE vehicle. You very rarely go to a service station to recharge, rather you recharge at home overnight or while at work or shopping or at a restaurant. “Stopping for fuel” is something that is only done on multi-hour road  trips.

[dandarc]

I don't want ICE vehicles phased out. The sound and fury of a flat 6, v8, v10 or v12 engine is a glorious thing, especially as it nears 8000 or 9000. I'm happy to pay a gas guzzler tax for the privilege of using one, but until people get taxed on their 3rd and subsequent children (because it's selfish to have that many children), it seems silly to me to ban the use or sale of ICE cars.

There was a horrible movie with Vince Vaughn and Kevin James where they were selling a sound-board to solve this exact problem with the way electric cars sound (or fail to sound as it were). The specifics of what their tiny company did were not critical to the plot, but that is what they were selling. Movie must be at least 5 years old now.

ETA: The Dilemma - from 2011. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dilemma

[nereo]

I don't want ICE vehicles phased out. The sound and fury of a flat 6, v8, v10 or v12 engine is a glorious thing, especially as it nears 8000 or 9000. I'm happy to pay a gas guzzler tax for the privilege of using one, but until people get taxed on their 3rd and subsequent children (because it's selfish to have that many children), it seems silly to me to ban the use or sale of ICE cars.

I’m off the exact opposite end of the spectrum from you on this - I hate listening to unnecessary engine noise, particularly from other people. It particularly irks me that companies will intentionally enhance this racket to be just within legal limits with no real performance benefit. IIRC BMW and others even “pipe” engine noise into the cabin via their sound system!

I don’t think we should allow cars to be any louder than they need to be. I suppose if you really want to make conversation difficult you could just have your sound system and some vibrating car seats give you the retro feel and sound, as they do with high end cinemas. For everyone around, it’s annoying 

[Paper Chaser]

^^^ plugging it in all the time isn't a problem for me since I'm home during the day, though.  If anyone has a prius prime or vehicle of similar range I'd be interested to hear their experience.

I have a Ford Fusion Energi. It has a 20 mile all-electric range. I work 19.5 miles from home. I plug into a standard 120v outlet every time I get home.

I usually travel about 950-1000 miles between fill ups in the warmer months. Obviously, fuel tank size comes into play in that calculation. Battery range is enough that I can get 50-60mpg in standard hybrid mode on my drive into work, and then do the entire trip home in EV mode when the weather is warm. Cold temps reduce the range so that the ICE typically comes on 1-2 miles from home.

We live a few miles outside of a rural town, so trips to the store, or family's homes are almost always done in full EV mode. I bought the car with 23k miles on it and a lifetime fuel economy rating in the low-mid 40s. I'm now around 46k miles and have dragged the lifetime fuel economy up to 90.0mpg. That has dropped a few mpg each winter with colder temps and shorter EV range, but it has thus far seen enough of a gain in the warmer months to continue rising over the lifetime. Might eventually get to 95-100mpg, but I think that's probably about the max I'll see with my usage.

PHEV pros:
reduced maintenance vs full ICE counterparts
smooth, quiet operation in EV mode
Using the full battery capacity (or close to it) frequently is probably a better use of natural resources than dragging a 100kwh battery around and only using 1/5 of it.
No range anxiety. It gets regular hybrid levels of fuel economy when the high voltage battery is 'empty'. This works if you can't charge at home, or if gas prices are cheap enough to be equivalent or superior to public EV charging. I paid $1.84/gal last week. Public charging can't really compete with that on a $/mile basis.

PHEV cons:
You have the complexity of an ICE and an EV powertrain combined. There are some parts removed, but still more than a full EV
Many times, the hybrid battery takes up space that reduces interior or trunk capacity. An EV on a skateboard chassis has tremendous packaging advantages by comparison.
They're not currently very common, so finding experienced service might be difficult (I've had to do nothing but a single oil change during my ownership, so perhaps service isn't a huge concern)
They can often have some unique parts that differ from the ICE vehicle that they're typically based on. These may be difficult to procure (and therefore costly) in the future.

[dandarc]

I don't want ICE vehicles phased out. The sound and fury of a flat 6, v8, v10 or v12 engine is a glorious thing, especially as it nears 8000 or 9000. I'm happy to pay a gas guzzler tax for the privilege of using one, but until people get taxed on their 3rd and subsequent children (because it's selfish to have that many children), it seems silly to me to ban the use or sale of ICE cars.

I’m off the exact opposite end of the spectrum from you on this - I hate listening to unnecessary engine noise, particularly from other people. It particularly irks me that companies will intentionally enhance this racket to be just within legal limits with no real performance benefit. IIRC BMW and others even “pipe” engine noise into the cabin via their sound system!

I don’t think we should allow cars to be any louder than they need to be. I suppose if you really want to make conversation difficult you could just have your sound system and some vibrating car seats give you the retro feel and sound, as they do with high end cinemas. For everyone around, it’s annoying

With you on this - quieter is better, particularly for someone else's car. I wonder why the Leaf beeps when backing up but not when going forward at low speeds. Probably even with the camera and mirrors helping out with reversing, the driver can see in front better. But still - near silent when moving slow enough regardless of whether the car is in drive or reverse.

[dandarc]

So they've made safety improvements - good deal.

[sherr]

So they've made safety improvements - good deal.

The EU requires it starting July 2021, so that means that next year practically all new EVs will make noise at low speeds.

[Bloop Bloop]

I don't want ICE vehicles phased out. The sound and fury of a flat 6, v8, v10 or v12 engine is a glorious thing, especially as it nears 8000 or 9000. I'm happy to pay a gas guzzler tax for the privilege of using one, but until people get taxed on their 3rd and subsequent children (because it's selfish to have that many children), it seems silly to me to ban the use or sale of ICE cars.

I’m off the exact opposite end of the spectrum from you on this - I hate listening to unnecessary engine noise, particularly from other people. It particularly irks me that companies will intentionally enhance this racket to be just within legal limits with no real performance benefit. IIRC BMW and others even “pipe” engine noise into the cabin via their sound system!

I don’t think we should allow cars to be any louder than they need to be. I suppose if you really want to make conversation difficult you could just have your sound system and some vibrating car seats give you the retro feel and sound, as they do with high end cinemas. For everyone around, it’s annoying

Any company that intentionally enhances the racket (including BMW which does it because it uses wimpy turbocharged engines) is not one that I'd support. Most BMWs and Mercedes these days sound like absolute shit   The cars you hear that sound like very loud lawnmowers with pops and farts are all anathema to me. However that engine sound shouldn't be confused with the glorious ring of a big, atmospheric engine. The only manufacturers that still use the large atmo engines are Lamborghini, Lexus (to a small extent), Porsche (to a small extent) and Aston Martin (to an extent). Ferrari has gone all turbo these days, as have BMW, Mercedes and Audi.

[nereo]

I don't want ICE vehicles phased out. The sound and fury of a flat 6, v8, v10 or v12 engine is a glorious thing, especially as it nears 8000 or 9000. I'm happy to pay a gas guzzler tax for the privilege of using one, but until people get taxed on their 3rd and subsequent children (because it's selfish to have that many children), it seems silly to me to ban the use or sale of ICE cars.

I’m off the exact opposite end of the spectrum from you on this - I hate listening to unnecessary engine noise, particularly from other people. It particularly irks me that companies will intentionally enhance this racket to be just within legal limits with no real performance benefit. IIRC BMW and others even “pipe” engine noise into the cabin via their sound system!

I don’t think we should allow cars to be any louder than they need to be. I suppose if you really want to make conversation difficult you could just have your sound system and some vibrating car seats give you the retro feel and sound, as they do with high end cinemas. For everyone around, it’s annoying

Any company that intentionally enhances the racket (including BMW which does it because it uses wimpy turbocharged engines) is not one that I'd support. Most BMWs and Mercedes these days sound like absolute shit   The cars you hear that sound like very loud lawnmowers with pops and farts are all anathema to me. However that engine sound shouldn't be confused with the glorious ring of a big, atmospheric engine. The only manufacturers that still use the large atmo engines are Lamborghini, Lexus (to a small extent), Porsche (to a small extent) and Aston Martin (to an extent). Ferrari has gone all turbo these days, as have BMW, Mercedes and Audi.

Interesting.  I’m certainly not an engine-sound buff (quite the opposite) - but I’ve never heard a loud engine I’ve enjoyed.  To me the absolute worst offenders are the Harley Davidson motorcycles... which seem to me to be the adult equivalent of saying “look at me, look at me!” with their engine noise.

The desire, though, to have ICE engines completely phased out in a decade or two is not due to the noise pollution, but their emissions.  It’s strictly an environmental standpoint. I’d take a bunch of noisy BEV vehicles (if they existed) in place of completely silent ICE models (whic also don’t seem to exist).  As a global society we can’t keep burning a few hundred thousand barrels of oil ever hour.

Yes, there are also issues which need to be addressed with electrical production and battery production. 

[pecunia]

- Big SNIP -

Interesting.  I’m certainly not an engine-sound buff (quite the opposite) - but I’ve never heard a loud engine I’ve enjoyed.  To me the absolute worst offenders are the Harley Davidson motorcycles... which seem to me to be the adult equivalent of saying “look at me, look at me!” with their engine noise.

The desire, though, to have ICE engines completely phased out in a decade or two is not due to the noise pollution, but their emissions.  It’s strictly an environmental standpoint. I’d take a bunch of noisy BEV vehicles (if they existed) in place of completely silent ICE models (whic also don’t seem to exist).  As a global society we can’t keep burning a few hundred thousand barrels of oil ever hour.

Yes, there are also issues which need to be addressed with electrical production and battery production.

I sure agree on the Harleys.  I was in a state park a couple days ago.  A Honda 3 wheel bike started up and took off.  Quiet - like a Civic.  Immediately after a couple of Harleys took off - what a difference   What an irritation.  Potato Potato Potato!

I never understood the cop caller thing - Harleys and glass pack mufflers.

I guess Harleys are not selling like they used to so the roar may fade to a purr in a few years.

Yeh - I like the quiet of electric vehicles.

[Just Joe]

I don't want ICE vehicles phased out. The sound and fury of a flat 6, v8, v10 or v12 engine is a glorious thing, especially as it nears 8000 or 9000. I'm happy to pay a gas guzzler tax for the privilege of using one, but until people get taxed on their 3rd and subsequent children (because it's selfish to have that many children), it seems silly to me to ban the use or sale of ICE cars.

I’m off the exact opposite end of the spectrum from you on this - I hate listening to unnecessary engine noise, particularly from other people. It particularly irks me that companies will intentionally enhance this racket to be just within legal limits with no real performance benefit. IIRC BMW and others even “pipe” engine noise into the cabin via their sound system!

I don’t think we should allow cars to be any louder than they need to be. I suppose if you really want to make conversation difficult you could just have your sound system and some vibrating car seats give you the retro feel and sound, as they do with high end cinemas. For everyone around, it’s annoying

With you on this - quieter is better, particularly for someone else's car. I wonder why the Leaf beeps when backing up but not when going forward at low speeds. Probably even with the camera and mirrors helping out with reversing, the driver can see in front better. But still - near silent when moving slow enough regardless of whether the car is in drive or reverse.

My 2020 Leaf makes a noise when going forward at a low speeds, under 30mph I think

I can confirm. Nissan has changed their sound schemes over the past few years. The forward sound reminds me of an old Star Trek sound effect of "shivering leaves" on an alien planet. I can't remember the episode though. 

[Frugal Lizard]

This past spring when covid lock down silenced our city and all I could hear was birdsong.  Imagine what an improvement urban living would be if a majority of the transportation was electric.
We have an older leaf but two new drivers so we have not disabled the back up warning noise.  But we don't have the forward noise turned on. 

[Just Joe]

We used to live in a place where I could hear the interstate. Sometimes Wednesday nights were quieter than other week nights due I think to trucks arriving at their destination and perhaps getting a good night's sleep. Also very quiet during the Great Recession as traffic dropped off.

The loss of the highway roar was pleasant. Didn't notice it was there until it wasn't.

This spring we had a period where the morning commuters were mostly at home (us too). Sitting on the porch and drinking coffee with only the sounds of the natural world was nice.

I'm a diehard gearhead - I build cars and motorcycles and scooters. We go to cruise-ins and shows. That said - I also appreciate the near silence of the electric motor and EVs.

I look at it like I do the emissions of the antique cars. Push the daily driver fleet towards silence and becoming emissions free and then let the antique/custom vehicles be what they are. They are a tiny part of the fleet and driven tiny numbers of miles per year.

[pecunia]

So - I heard a snippet of news about a coup in Bolivia arranged to ensure there would be Lithium for batteries.  It sounded pretty fantastic.  Any truth to any of it?  I've never considered the source of the materials for Lithium batteries.  Seems like this kind of thing could affect the selling of electric cars.

[sherr]

So - I heard a snippet of news about a coup in Bolivia arranged to ensure there would be Lithium for batteries.  It sounded pretty fantastic.  Any truth to any of it?

foreignpolicy.com says no.

Lithium mining is definitely a big deal though. Tesla is getting into mining their own lithium to ensure they have enough supply for their demand.

[Just Joe]

Nissan Leaf makes a pedestrian sound below 30 mph. Star Trek all the way. Found the sound file today on a rabbit hole search during lunch today.

https://www.trekcore.com/audio/

https://www.trekcore.com/audio/background/tos_planet_2.mp3

There you are. The original series alien planet ambient sound. 

[Paper Chaser]

This past spring when covid lock down silenced our city and all I could hear was birdsong.  Imagine what an improvement urban living would be if a majority of the transportation was electric.
We have an older leaf but two new drivers so we have not disabled the back up warning noise.  But we don't have the forward noise turned on.

The quiet during the lockdowns did not come from a lack of ICEs on the road, it came from a lack of vehicles of any type on the road. Most modern ICE vehicles are pretty quiet from the outside (unless modified). There are of course exceptions, but there's a ton of time and money spent on controlling the noise from an ICE. Everything from exhaust volume to insulating the engine bay, to dampening vibration, to fuel injection timing comes into play. It's a big deal for car companies to get the sound and volume of ICE noise correct for the intended market. There are cases where they want a louder more sonorous exhaust, but in most cases they really want it to be as quiet as possible to give the occupants a more luxurious feel.

If you stand next to a freeway full of ICEs and a freeway full of EVs, most of the noise that you'll hear in either case will be from tires. EVs are definitely quieter for the occupants, but for those outside there's not a huge difference between a Leaf driving by at 60mph and a Camry doing the same thing. At low speeds, there's less tire noise created, so the EVs have an advantage, but even that's mitigated a bit when the EVs have to make noises for pedestrians. Point being that if general traffic noise bothers you, it's more driven by the number of vehicles in said traffic than what's powering that traffic.

[nereo]

This past spring when covid lock down silenced our city and all I could hear was birdsong.  Imagine what an improvement urban living would be if a majority of the transportation was electric.
We have an older leaf but two new drivers so we have not disabled the back up warning noise.  But we don't have the forward noise turned on.

The quiet during the lockdowns did not come from a lack of ICEs on the road, it came from a lack of vehicles of any type on the road. Most modern ICE vehicles are pretty quiet from the outside (unless modified). There are of course exceptions, but there's a ton of time and money spent on controlling the noise from an ICE. Everything from exhaust volume to insulating the engine bay, to dampening vibration, to fuel injection timing comes into play. It's a big deal for car companies to get the sound and volume of ICE noise correct for the intended market. There are cases where they want a louder more sonorous exhaust, but in most cases they really want it to be as quiet as possible to give the occupants a more luxurious feel.

If you stand next to a freeway full of ICEs and a freeway full of EVs, most of the noise that you'll hear in either case will be from tires. EVs are definitely quieter for the occupants, but for those outside there's not a huge difference between a Leaf driving by at 60mph and a Camry doing the same thing. At low speeds, there's less tire noise created, so the EVs have an advantage, but even that's mitigated a bit when the EVs have to make noises for pedestrians. Point being that if general traffic noise bothers you, it's more driven by the number of vehicles in said traffic than what's powering that traffic.

Around here there’s a constant stream of ICE vehicles on the highway with substantial engine noise.  Some of it may be vehicles modified by their owners.  More - i suspect - are cars with exhaust/muffler issues.  And of course there are the parade of Harleys and trucks and sports cars where the noise is absolutely their loud engines.

If every ICE vehicle was as quiet as a modern (and maintained) Camery or Civic it wouldn’t be an issue.  But over half of the traffic aren’t these vehicles.

[Frugal Lizard]

This past spring when covid lock down silenced our city and all I could hear was birdsong.  Imagine what an improvement urban living would be if a majority of the transportation was electric.
We have an older leaf but two new drivers so we have not disabled the back up warning noise.  But we don't have the forward noise turned on.

The quiet during the lockdowns did not come from a lack of ICEs on the road, it came from a lack of vehicles of any type on the road. Most modern ICE vehicles are pretty quiet from the outside (unless modified). There are of course exceptions, but there's a ton of time and money spent on controlling the noise from an ICE. Everything from exhaust volume to insulating the engine bay, to dampening vibration, to fuel injection timing comes into play. It's a big deal for car companies to get the sound and volume of ICE noise correct for the intended market. There are cases where they want a louder more sonorous exhaust, but in most cases they really want it to be as quiet as possible to give the occupants a more luxurious feel.

If you stand next to a freeway full of ICEs and a freeway full of EVs, most of the noise that you'll hear in either case will be from tires. EVs are definitely quieter for the occupants, but for those outside there's not a huge difference between a Leaf driving by at 60mph and a Camry doing the same thing. At low speeds, there's less tire noise created, so the EVs have an advantage, but even that's mitigated a bit when the EVs have to make noises for pedestrians. Point being that if general traffic noise bothers you, it's more driven by the number of vehicles in said traffic than what's powering that traffic.

Around here there’s a constant stream of ICE vehicles on the highway with substantial engine noise.  Some of it may be vehicles modified by their owners.  More - i suspect - are cars with exhaust/muffler issues.  And of course there are the parade of Harleys and trucks and sports cars where the noise is absolutely their loud engines.

If every ICE vehicle was as quiet as a modern (and maintained) Camery or Civic it wouldn’t be an issue.  But over half of the traffic aren’t these vehicles.

A lot of the cars in our 'hood are older pick up trucks. And a couple has his and her harleys. We live at the crest of a hill.  Just about every car switches gear at some point in time on the hill, except the three EV's and they sneak up into driveways on the hill.

[Paper Chaser]

The quiet during the lockdowns did not come from a lack of ICEs on the road, it came from a lack of vehicles of any type on the road. Most modern ICE vehicles are pretty quiet from the outside (unless modified). There are of course exceptions, but there's a ton of time and money spent on controlling the noise from an ICE. Everything from exhaust volume to insulating the engine bay, to dampening vibration, to fuel injection timing comes into play. It's a big deal for car companies to get the sound and volume of ICE noise correct for the intended market. There are cases where they want a louder more sonorous exhaust, but in most cases they really want it to be as quiet as possible to give the occupants a more luxurious feel.

If you stand next to a freeway full of ICEs and a freeway full of EVs, most of the noise that you'll hear in either case will be from tires. EVs are definitely quieter for the occupants, but for those outside there's not a huge difference between a Leaf driving by at 60mph and a Camry doing the same thing. At low speeds, there's less tire noise created, so the EVs have an advantage, but even that's mitigated a bit when the EVs have to make noises for pedestrians. Point being that if general traffic noise bothers you, it's more driven by the number of vehicles in said traffic than what's powering that traffic.

Around here there’s a constant stream of ICE vehicles on the highway with substantial engine noise.  Some of it may be vehicles modified by their owners.  More - i suspect - are cars with exhaust/muffler issues.  And of course there are the parade of Harleys and trucks and sports cars where the noise is absolutely their loud engines.

If every ICE vehicle was as quiet as a modern (and maintained) Camery or Civic it wouldn’t be an issue.  But over half of the traffic aren’t these vehicles.

That's why I qualified my stance with the section in bold above. Do you really think that over half of the traffic on the road near you is modified or poorly maintained?

I live in the rural MidWest. It's harvest time, and my road is frequently used to get to the local grain elevator, so for the last couple of weeks the traffic on my road has seen a pretty high percentage of semis hauling grain. They can weigh 80k lbs or more when loaded, and they travel 40+ mph past my house. With the exception of a couple of very old trucks with two stroke diesel engines, the overwhelming noise from these trucks comes from tires and suspension banging over imperfections in the road. With the exception of the two old two-stroke trucks, I can usually hear the tires howling over the asphalt 10-20 seconds before I see the trucks or hear their engines.

There are a lot of newer pickup trucks that drive by my house that have stock or close to stock tires on them. They're relatively quiet. There's one guy that has put really chunky, off-road tires on his truck, and it howls like an 80k lb grain truck does. I can hear him coming from 1/3 of a mile away. The overwhelming noise in this case is tire noise, rather than engine noise. So if an owner of one of these upcoming EV trucks chooses to do something similar, that EV truck would be just as loud as the current ICE truck when they drive past my house.

I guess my larger point in responding to Frugal Lizard was that there's a lot more to general traffic noise than just the power plant. The idea that if everything were suddenly EV powered it would be nice and quiet like it was during COVID shutdowns seems idealistic. I appreciate the quietness of an EV as much as anybody, but while EVs are quieter than an ICE, they contribute to road noise too. The best solution to road noise is to reduce the number of vehicles on that road.

[BicycleB]

Wow! Eye-opening (ear-opening??) discussion of road noise. Never thought about those details, but they make sense.

Sadly, this means my formerly quiet neighborhood will probably keep getting noisier. :(

[sherr]

My practical experience agrees. My Model 3 is near-silent on neighborhood streets, but at highway speeds it's just about the same as any other car. Getting rid of the intentionally obnoxiously loud cars would be a plus, but beyond that I don't expect highway noise to change much.

[pecunia]

Road Noise- Time to build the wall and have Mexican and other drivers pay for it.  These stone walls really cut down on the noise.

[nereo]

Problem with road noise and ICE vehicles near us isn’t cars traveling at a uniform highway speed.  It’s all those coming onto the highway, accelerating from 15mpg to 60+.  And of course the larger trucks using their engine (jake) brakes to de-accelerate

[Just Joe]

And different states regulate what a person can and can't do to their vehicles. My state is pretty lax with no vehicle inspections. They do sniff the exhaust in a few metro areas.

Around here the big cities are much tighter on the rules than smaller towns or rural areas.

[jinga nation]

In some areas (like mine) Tesla Model 3s are seen more frequently than Toyota/Honda/Lexus/etc sedans. Add in a lot of Model S too. Plus many Nissan Leafs. Electric cars are past the stage of early adoption. They are mainstream. At least in urban areas.

Things holding back higher sales (my anecdata):
1. justification for the price premium, for the hoi polloi
2. lack of OEM/DIY options. lot of us are DIYers, especially for keeping a car for a long time.
3. confusion over DRM - lack of trust when manufacturer can remotely disable features/vehicle if something was replaced at a non-authorized dealer (see Rich Rebuilds on youtube)
4. charging network and range anxiety. More charging points are being constantly added and battery and super-capacitor tech is constantly improving.

I'm watching VW's ID platform. That may be a global game changer. Competition is good.

We bought our first hybrid in 2019 (Honda Insight 3rd gen). We keep our cars until they die or when they have a major expensive issue. I expect to purchase an electric car in 5-7 years to replace my ICE SUV (Toyota).

[BicycleB]

In some areas (like mine) Tesla Model 3s are seen more frequently than Toyota/Honda/Lexus/etc sedans. Add in a lot of Model S too. Plus many Nissan Leafs. Electric cars are past the stage of early adoption. They are mainstream. At least in urban areas.

I live in a city full of techies, money, hipsters and liberals. My neighborhood is gentrifying. But I have yet to see a Tesla parked at any house in my neighborhood, let alone the apartments.

I'd agree with mainstream "in some neighborhoods", but "urban areas" seems too broad.