Author Topic: Dumb question about military veterans, security clearances, and foreign travel  (Read 16169 times)

Nords

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My spouse and I are considering spending much more travel time in Asia over the next few years.  Two possibilities are China & Vietnam. 

Between 1984-2002 we both held military TS clearances with a wide variety of compartments.  They were big deals at the time but today I think they'd barely make the cut for a novel, let alone be a national security risk.  However we've read reports, been places, seen things, and done stuff that we're not supposed to talk about for the rest of our lives. 

When I was on active duty, I remember that there was "a list" of countries where you couldn't travel (even on official orders) and other places where you could only go with DoD or State Dept permission.  Now I'm looking for the current version of that list (if it even still exists) to see whether any of it applies to veteran geezers.  Google is not my friend for this research project, and Military.com isn't much help either.

Can anyone point me to a website or an instruction?  The best I've found so far is http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/510521m_vol3.pdf

Rural

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Sorry that I can't help you at all, but when you do find the answer, will you please post it here? We also will need to know.

Gin1984

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Back in the day, when I was a kid, I know it did because my great-uncle had places he could not travel.  Check with your local VA.  If they are not of help, your local congressperson should have the link.

Workinghard

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I shared your post and email with someone who might have, or be able to get, the information for you. I hope you get a response!

mnstachian

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Do you have access here? https://www.fcg.pentagon.mil/

Nords

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Do you have access here? https://www.fcg.pentagon.mil/
Thanks, I didn't even know that site existed.

Quote
"If you are on a non-.mil/.gov domain and require access to the site as a DoD employee, U.S. military member, DoD contractor supporting a DoD contract, or for official DoD or government business, please request a username and password from the webmaster at EFCG@leidos.com. Include the following information in your request: Full Name; Unit/Company; Mailing Address; Phone (Comm/DSN); e-mail."
No, I'm a military retiree but that site's "military member" vocabulary means "on active duty or Reserve/Guard duty".  I'm not employed and this is not official DoD/govt business.  It's just leisure travel.

I'm hoping to find a publicly-available source that any military veteran could look up-- assuming such a thing exists.  I'm not going to create extra work for webmasters or security clearance staff but I'll follow whatever govt travel rules there already may be for military veterans who held those types of clearances.  Anyone who has my name can do an Internet search to learn about my former occupation, so I'm just making sure that I don't blunder cluelessly abroad before I learn the rules. 

I may have to track down a shipmate or two who are still on active duty to use sites like this one, but I thought I'd try here as well.


mnstachian

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Gotcha. I'd email the webmaster with the details of your situation and bet on them knowing whether such publicly accessible information exists (or at least knowing the right person up the chain to ask).

HopeForSoap

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Hello!

I was directed towards this post by a family member who figured I could help to some extent. I'm a current member of the military who holds a sensitive position with similar caveats.

Your best strategy would be to contact your last duty station and get the number of the SSO (Special Security Office) or USM (Unit Security Manager) of your old operations squadron. They will definitely be able to help and should be more than willing to assist you and may even appreciate the call - these days you can never be too safe.

Your question is tough to answer and honestly depends a lot on what kinds of programs/systems you had access too (hence reaching back to someone in your unit who is knowledgeable on what security risks etc is definitely a plus). When having been read out of your programs at the end of your service, some of these things should have been covered by your SSO, however things have changed SIGNIFICANTLY since 9/11 and I know the systems and procedures we have in place have changed drastically.

One thing that is always a safe thing to do is as you receive direction from your old unit and plan your itinerary, contact the US Embassy in your country of travel and make them aware of your plans so they are at least in the loop during your travels.

If you'd like to talk in more specifics than generalities feel free to PM me and we can arrange a means to talk over the phone or vice versa.

Hope this helps a bit!

-Soap

kendallf

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I can check the FCG for you Monday, and see if it offers any guidance.  I'm a current DOD civilian, ex-AF, I have a clearance, and I travel a lot for work.  FWIW, it has never come up in my case. 

Nords

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Your best strategy would be to contact your last duty station and get the number of the SSO (Special Security Office) or USM (Unit Security Manager) of your old operations squadron. They will definitely be able to help and should be more than willing to assist you and may even appreciate the call - these days you can never be too safe.

Your question is tough to answer and honestly depends a lot on what kinds of programs/systems you had access too (hence reaching back to someone in your unit who is knowledgeable on what security risks etc is definitely a plus). When having been read out of your programs at the end of your service, some of these things should have been covered by your SSO, however things have changed SIGNIFICANTLY since 9/11 and I know the systems and procedures we have in place have changed drastically.

One thing that is always a safe thing to do is as you receive direction from your old unit and plan your itinerary, contact the US Embassy in your country of travel and make them aware of your plans so they are at least in the loop during your travels.
Thanks.  I can talk to our COMSUBPAC SSO and see how good their records are.  They'll have to go back at least 20 years.  I had over a dozen compartments back then and can barely remember more than one or two names.  My spouse was in a different batch of compartments with PACOM, but they should be able to figure that out too.

For this sort of travel we'd let the embassy know where we'll be... even if it's just for natural disasters or evacuation planning.

I can check the FCG for you Monday, and see if it offers any guidance.  I'm a current DOD civilian, ex-AF, I have a clearance, and I travel a lot for work.  FWIW, it has never come up in my case.
Thanks again! 

I suspect that the lack of access to the info means that my clearances are not a travel issue.  But again I'd hate to find out that I'd dropped through a crack after I got off the plane...  I'd especially hate to find out that somebody thinks that I should still know something when it turns out that I never learned it in the first place.

jnik

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Contact counterintelligence at your last duty station, as mentioned. The embassy also might be useful. Consider your Congresscritter's office, too; one of they things they do is help constituents deal with the Feds and as a vet you should get appropriate treatment.

They really should have covered this in an exit briefing.

Villanelle

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I asked husband who said he has to consult the foreign clearance guide when he travels, but that he needs CaC card access to view it.  He suggested contacting the Department of State just to make sure, but it doesn't seem like it should be an issue.

FWIW, we have more than one friend who went to China while we were stationed in Japan and who had TS clearance.  They had to get clearance, but it was fine.

DoubleDown

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There's no longer any list of excluded countries, and no exclusions to travel as long as you're able to get a visa for wherever you are travelling. Even current, compartmented clearance holders can travel just about anywhere as long as it's reported. I'm assuming you wouldn't be travelling anyhow to any of the closed countries, like North Korea or Iran. It's always a good idea to follow the State Dept.'s guide for travel to a particular country for security and CI concerns. Care should be exercised when travelling to any of the "usual suspects" countries (China, Russia, etc.), but of course you'd do that anyhow. So travel away, you can go wherever you want and continue to honor your secrecy agreement!

davisgang90

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Nords, Still AD here and I traveled as part of a War College (ICAF) a couple years ago.  The two countries we visited were Vietnam and China.  As a Vet you can go anywhere any US Citizen can go, you don't have to get permission from anyone (other than Mrs. Nords of course).

Nords

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They really should have covered this in an exit briefing.
They did... in 2002.  It seems possible that the guidance might have changed since then.

There's no longer any list of excluded countries, and no exclusions to travel as long as you're able to get a visa for wherever you are travelling. Even current, compartmented clearance holders can travel just about anywhere as long as it's reported. I'm assuming you wouldn't be travelling anyhow to any of the closed countries, like North Korea or Iran. It's always a good idea to follow the State Dept.'s guide for travel to a particular country for security and CI concerns. Care should be exercised when travelling to any of the "usual suspects" countries (China, Russia, etc.), but of course you'd do that anyhow. So travel away, you can go wherever you want and continue to honor your secrecy agreement!
Nords, Still AD here and I traveled as part of a War College (ICAF) a couple years ago.  The two countries we visited were Vietnam and China.  As a Vet you can go anywhere any US Citizen can go, you don't have to get permission from anyone (other than Mrs. Nords of course).
Thanks, I'm glad there's no clearance hoops to jump through for those countries!  I'll manage to stay clear of DPRK and Iran-- no plans to ever visit there.

One reason for our new travel interest is our daughter's college graduation.  Some of these Pacific Rim climates are better visited in October-January, but we've stayed on island for most of those months when she was coming home for winter break.  She graduates in 25 days and it'll probably be two years before her next trip home. 

Another reason is that Billy & Akaisha Kaderli are in Vietnam these days, and they've been putting up a lot of posts about the changes they've seen over the years.  I'm intrigued by this one that they wrote about residence hotels, and the owner is catering to U.S. military veterans:
http://the-military-guide.com/2014/04/22/an-alternative-option-for-vacationing-and-retirement-lifestyle/

Travis

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Nords, I just talked to my BDE S2 and he said since you no longer hold a clearance and you're traveling for personal pleasure rather than business there is nothing preventing you from going anywhere you wish.  The only restrictions might be when the State Department puts out travel warnings and nations that are closed due to wars and such, but those apply to everyone.  The one thing he did mention was that your Non-Disclosure Agreements still exist so keep your mouth shut and enjoy your travels!

Nords

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The only restrictions might be when the State Department puts out travel warnings and nations that are closed due to wars and such, but those apply to everyone.  The one thing he did mention was that your Non-Disclosure Agreements still exist so keep your mouth shut and enjoy your travels!
Thanks!  I'm glad to know there's not a DoD list.

I don't discuss any submarine operations that are already discussed in the book "Blind Man's Bluff"...

Spartana

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Nords - I had a TS-SCI clearance while in the service (Coast Guard) that was transferred to my civilian job once out. After I quit work those clearances were de-activated and I have never re-activated them. My understanding is that if we don't hold "active" clearances we can go to any country that the State Dept allows all civilian US citizens to enter without requiring any sort of permission. So unlike when we were in the service and required Command permission to travel out of the US, a briefing before departure and debriefing upon return, and checking in with the US Embassy in any country we visited, as a Vet or retiree we can travel like a civilian.   So I don't think going to China would be a problem from this end. However, I would be concerned about your own personal protection if the Chinese government (or any government) knew that you once held TS clearances on a nuclear sub. So maybe keeping that info on the down low would be best. However, if you currently work and have active clearances, then that's a different case. My sister works in Security for a DoD defense contractor and also holds active TS-SCI clearances amongst others. In her case she must get pre-approval to travel anywhere outside the US (including Canada and Mexico), be briefed and then de-briefed upon return and list any and all activities she did while abroad and any foreign people she has contact with.

PS I got to hitch a ride on the Tautog when she was in Pearl and I was stationed there on a ship about a million years ago. Uber cool!

frugalmom

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Hi Nords.

Depending on MOS there is a permanent no travel list.  My father has been retired for 20+ years and due to his unique MOS (technical), the militaries current use of old technology, and his clearance level he has to report any international travel to a pentagon retired asset management unit (?). [I don't know the exact title, I just know in his safety deposit box there is a phone number to call if he dies].  Since my father is the opposite of exotic and is old he has never been denied travel.  He did get a visit from a consular officer and a couple of Marines in France one time--he told Pentagon he'd be gone 10 days, he changed his plans and stayed longer and forgot to update Pentagon. 

I think this is really about tracking him when they need his help, and projecting how long it will take to collect him. Although I suppose there is some concern about coercion of information.  Yes, they have come to his house and picked him up on multiple occasions, including 8 weeks following 9/11 (I only know because he makes them drop his pet off at my house).

Sorry if this is not a military explanation, it wasn't really an organization I wanted as an employer so I'm light on the specifics.

DoubleDown

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So maybe keeping that info on the down low would be best.

Or you could do like the Marine Security Guard on Obama's recent trip to the Netherlands, who was picking up girls by bragging about his supposedly amazing super-spy, super-secret-agent clearances, and his special assignment helping with security while Obama was visiting, showing off his credentials which were passed around to all the locals at the nightclub; then taking a "selfie" with what appeared to be a girl from the club or a local prostitute wearing his credentials around her neck in a hotel room later on! Idiot.

frugalmom

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Or you could do like the Marine Security Guard on Obama's recent trip to the Netherlands, who was picking up girls by bragging about his supposedly amazing super-spy, super-secret-agent clearances, and his special assignment helping with security while Obama was visiting, showing off his credentials which were passed around to all the locals at the nightclub; then taking a "selfie" with what appeared to be a girl from the club or a local prostitute wearing his credentials around her neck in a hotel room later on! Idiot.

Classic CLM; let me introduce you to the Agriculture Department's new page checker
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 03:27:31 PM by frugalmom »

Gin1984

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Hi Nords.

Depending on MOS there is a permanent no travel list.  My father has been retired for 20+ years and due to his unique MOS (technical), the militaries current use of old technology, and his clearance level he has to report any international travel to a pentagon retired asset management unit (?). [I don't know the exact title, I just know in his safety deposit box there is a phone number to call if he dies].  Since my father is the opposite of exotic and is old he has never been denied travel.  He did get a visit from a consular officer and a couple of Marines in France one time--he told Pentagon he'd be gone 10 days, he changed his plans and stayed longer and forgot to update Pentagon. 

I think this is really about tracking him when they need his help, and projecting how long it will take to collect him. Although I suppose there is some concern about coercion of information.  Yes, they have come to his house and picked him up on multiple occasions, including 8 weeks following 9/11 (I only know because he makes them drop his pet off at my house).

Sorry if this is not a military explanation, it wasn't really an organization I wanted as an employer so I'm light on the specifics.
We had to do that when my great uncle died.  It was weird.  My mom started crying on the phone.  I would hate to have that job.

Spartana

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So maybe keeping that info on the down low would be best.

Or you could do like the Marine Security Guard on Obama's recent trip to the Netherlands, who was picking up girls by bragging about his supposedly amazing super-spy, super-secret-agent clearances, and his special assignment helping with security while Obama was visiting, showing off his credentials which were passed around to all the locals at the nightclub; then taking a "selfie" with what appeared to be a girl from the club or a local prostitute wearing his credentials around her neck in a hotel room later on! Idiot.
Ha Ha! Funny you mentioned that because that was partly why I had high level security clearances. I was stationed on a patrol boat for 2 years that did security protection detail  for Pres. Bush the First when he was in Maine (which was often) and we had direct access to him so we all had to have extra security clearances including a special one that was situational just for people who worked directly with the Pres or VP. Of course no one was "suppose" to say anything about that duty but kind of hard to hide a big white boat and a bunch of heavily armed people out fishing with the Pres! I also had to transport classified documents by hand between different military and Federal LE agencies so needed the SCI clearances for that.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 03:22:41 PM by Spartana »

Spartana

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Nords - Just wanted to add that if you plan to get your clearances re-activated at anytime, then it DOES matter if you've been abroad and for how long and what countries you visited. I think that most TS clearances can be re-activated within 2 years of de-activation with a minimal background security check if you haven't been overseas much. But if they are over 2 years old (or you haven't been reinvestigated with the full investigation in the last 5 years) then you'll have to go thru a full security clearance like you did the first time and that could take a year or more in the best case. In the worst case, if you've done a lot of foreign travel, you may be denied clearances completely. Something to think about if you ever plan to have them re-activated. 
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 03:45:04 PM by Spartana »

Spartana

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Or you could do like the Marine Security Guard on Obama's recent trip to the Netherlands, who was picking up girls by bragging about his supposedly amazing super-spy, super-secret-agent clearances, and his special assignment helping with security while Obama was visiting, showing off his credentials which were passed around to all the locals at the nightclub; then taking a "selfie" with what appeared to be a girl from the club or a local prostitute wearing his credentials around her neck in a hotel room later on! Idiot.

Classic CLM; let me introduce you to the Agriculture Department's new page checker
...in Siberia :-)!

Nords

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PS I got to hitch a ride on the Tautog when she was in Pearl and I was stationed there on a ship about a million years ago. Uber cool!
TAUTOG was a good boat with a great reputation.  You had a ride with the submarine force's finest!

Depending on MOS there is a permanent no travel list.  My father has been retired for 20+ years and due to his unique MOS (technical), the militaries current use of old technology, and his clearance level he has to report any international travel to a pentagon retired asset management unit (?). [I don't know the exact title, I just know in his safety deposit box there is a phone number to call if he dies].  Since my father is the opposite of exotic and is old he has never been denied travel.  He did get a visit from a consular officer and a couple of Marines in France one time--he told Pentagon he'd be gone 10 days, he changed his plans and stayed longer and forgot to update Pentagon. 
I think that's how these "list" urban legends get started-- on a kernel of truth.  I sure hope I'd know by now whether I signed up for a program like that.

The only military phone number people have to call if I wake up dead is to the Defense Finance & Accounting Service so that they can stop my pension deposits...

Nords - Just wanted to add that if you plan to get your clearances re-activated at anytime, then it DOES matter if you've been abroad and for how long and what countries you visited. I think that most TS clearances can be re-activated within 2 years of de-activation with a minimal background security check if you haven't been overseas much. But if they are over 2 years old (or you haven't been reinvestigated with the full investigation in the last 5 years) then you'll have to go thru a full security clearance like you did the first time and that could take a year or more in the best case. In the worst case, if you've done a lot of foreign travel, you may be denied clearances completely. Something to think about if you ever plan to have them re-activated. 
I've been retired for nearly 12 years, and I've turned over all my SF-86s to my daughter for her security clearance.  If the Navy ever has to adjudicate my clearance status again then this country will have far more serious problems than my travel record.

DoubleDown

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If the Navy ever has to adjudicate my clearance status again then this country will have far more serious problems than my travel record.

Lol

"Hmmm Mr. Nords, it says here you've been an unemployed surfer for 12 years, and some of your family thinks you're indigent..."

Nords

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If the Navy ever has to adjudicate my clearance status again then this country will have far more serious problems than my travel record.

Lol

"Hmmm Mr. Nords, it says here you've been an unemployed surfer for 12 years, and some of your family thinks you're indigent..."
"And... what do you DO all day?!?"

AlanStache

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Probably not a lot of peoples cup of tea but http://www.politicaltours.com/ has a few tours a year to North Korea that apparently Americans can participate in. Personally I would be interested to actually see it first hand, but fully understand if others would decline.  Also I think it was like 5k/person.

Spartana

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Probably not a lot of peoples cup of tea but http://www.politicaltours.com/ has a few tours a year to North Korea that apparently Americans can participate in. Personally I would be interested to actually see it first hand, but fully understand if others would decline.  Also I think it was like 5k/person.
Hmmm.... Wasn't there an elderly Navy Vet who was on a tour of North Korea recently who was held captive there because he was a Korean War Vet and maybe knew some deep dark secrets? Maybe that's a place Nords should stay away from...unless he like eating North Korean food for the a few years :-)!

Nords

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Probably not a lot of peoples cup of tea but http://www.politicaltours.com/ has a few tours a year to North Korea that apparently Americans can participate in. Personally I would be interested to actually see it first hand, but fully understand if others would decline.  Also I think it was like 5k/person.
Hmmm.... Wasn't there an elderly Navy Vet who was on a tour of North Korea recently who was held captive there because he was a Korean War Vet and maybe knew some deep dark secrets? Maybe that's a place Nords should stay away from...unless he like eating North Korean food for the a few years :-)!
Um, yeah.  I think he was Army infantry or intelligence during the Korean War:
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/santacruz/ci_24682022/merrill-newman-said-he-was-comfortable-during-detention
He says he's been to South Korea before and he offered to pass messages to people in North Korea... and then while he was in the DPRK he asked the tour staff about chatting with some of the survivors of a particular battle. 

Korean cuisine is yummy but I suspect that the North Korean version of it is not what I enjoy on Oahu.

AlanStache

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Probably not a lot of peoples cup of tea but http://www.politicaltours.com/ has a few tours a year to North Korea that apparently Americans can participate in. Personally I would be interested to actually see it first hand, but fully understand if others would decline.  Also I think it was like 5k/person.
Hmmm.... Wasn't there an elderly Navy Vet who was on a tour of North Korea recently who was held captive there because he was a Korean War Vet and maybe knew some deep dark secrets? Maybe that's a place Nords should stay away from...unless he like eating North Korean food for the a few years :-)!

New meaning for the term "adventure travel", besides how long could they hold a grudge for?  /sarcasm/

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!