Poll

Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?

No, because I think he is an exceptional president who deserves an exception to the usual limits.
4 (14.3%)
No, because I think he deserves a 3rd term after the witch hunts he was put through.
1 (3.6%)
No, because I think he is joking.
17 (60.7%)
Yes, but not enough to keep me from voting for him. He is still better than Biden/Harris.
3 (10.7%)
Yes, and although I voted for him in 2016 I will not be voting for him in 2020 for this and other reasons.
3 (10.7%)

Total Members Voted: 27

Author Topic: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?  (Read 5618 times)

J Boogie

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1537
Voting is for past/current Trump supporters only as the responses would indicate.

For those who think he is joking, I would like to understand how you interpret this tweet. Nothing about it seems as though it is intended to be interpreted in a humorous or trolling kind of way.


Gov. Mike Huckabee
@GovMikeHuckabee
I'll be on @seanhannity 2nite @FoxNews at 9pm ET and will explain how @realDonaldTrump will be eligible for a 3rd term due to the illegal attempts by Comey, Dems, and media , et al attempting to oust him as @POTUS so that's why I was named to head up the 2024 re-election.
1:42 PM · Dec 12, 2019
40.5K
45.9K people are Tweeting about this






simonsez

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1689
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2020, 11:30:46 AM »
No, because a term limit is arbitrary.  If a person has the vote of the people electoral college, bully.  I'm also not a fan at the other extreme with Supreme Court terms.  I do like the duration of a 4 year term, that sounds right (2 yrs is too short).  But if a person is able to keep winning elections, I don't have a problem with that regardless of their politics.

Quasi-tangent - I think the two-term rule lends itself to presidents serving two terms.  i.e. Whoever wins for the first time will be less of an unknown in the 2nd election.  Humans don't like unknowns/uncertainty.  In my lifetime the only time a president didn't serve two terms was HW after Perot basically caused the numbers to go that way.  It seems after a person wins their first term, their respective party is already all-in on the reelection instead of going for a new person.  If you took away term limits for the President then I think that changes the calculus at the party level.

Note: I didn't vote even though I read your response options much more ambiguously than you meant them.  I don't see why one would have to be a past/current Trump supporter to vote but I'll respect your decision on that.  You didn't say I couldn't comment though! ;-)

J Boogie

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1537
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2020, 01:05:46 PM »
No, because a term limit is arbitrary.  If a person has the vote of the people electoral college, bully.  I'm also not a fan at the other extreme with Supreme Court terms.  I do like the duration of a 4 year term, that sounds right (2 yrs is too short).  But if a person is able to keep winning elections, I don't have a problem with that regardless of their politics.

Quasi-tangent - I think the two-term rule lends itself to presidents serving two terms.  i.e. Whoever wins for the first time will be less of an unknown in the 2nd election.  Humans don't like unknowns/uncertainty.  In my lifetime the only time a president didn't serve two terms was HW after Perot basically caused the numbers to go that way.  It seems after a person wins their first term, their respective party is already all-in on the reelection instead of going for a new person.  If you took away term limits for the President then I think that changes the calculus at the party level.

Note: I didn't vote even though I read your response options much more ambiguously than you meant them.  I don't see why one would have to be a past/current Trump supporter to vote but I'll respect your decision on that.  You didn't say I couldn't comment though! ;-)

I'm happy to get your comment!

I created this poll because I am baffled by many of the conservatives I know who don't seem troubled by this. When I bring it up, the response is usually that he's joking, and when I bring up the Huckabee tweet, they usually pause for a moment. At that point in time they usually seem to still kind of think he's joking but mention they'll cross that bridge when they get there. I am interested in getting a solid answer out of a constitution-loving Trump voter who can countenance this inconvenient fact and tell me why - bonus points if they can avoid the well worn tortured logic of the trojan horse theory - the idea that the aviator wearing, trans am driving, hasselhoff shirted Biden is a vessel for socialism.

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7831
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2020, 01:37:04 PM »
Trump doesn’t joke. He floats ideas. Even his friends say that.

And his supporters pretend to care about the law, but are happy to ignore it when Trump talks about breaking it.

caffeine

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 156
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2020, 01:49:47 PM »
Off Topic, but - I think the world is getting more complicated, and no sitting President should have to worry about campaigning as its a distraction.

Instead of two 4 year terms, we should settle on a single 4-6 year term. This should reduce peoples' worries of a failure to transfer power peacefully  - as it would be far more obvious if someone is attempting to usurp the Constitution.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2020, 01:53:29 PM by caffeine »

ericrugiero

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 741
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2020, 02:26:32 PM »
I believe that very few of Trump's supporters would support him in a third term because most of them place a lot of value on the constitution and the constitutional amendments. 

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 25625
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2020, 02:36:20 PM »
I believe that very few of Trump's supporters would support him in a third term because most of them place a lot of value on the constitution and the constitutional amendments.

lol

J Boogie

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1537
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2020, 03:08:10 PM »
I believe that very few of Trump's supporters would support him in a third term because most of them place a lot of value on the constitution and the constitutional amendments.

lol

I think Stv is laughing because there is a pattern of Trump supporters following his lead in discarding the ideologies and norms they used to place a lot of value on.

I chalk this up to a combination of the cult of personality he openly fosters (I could shoot someone in broad daylight on 5th Avenue...) and the fact that the American Right seems to have an intense fear the American Left winning the presidency again.

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11709
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2020, 06:42:44 PM »
I believe that very few of Trump's supporters would support him in a third term....
The reasons would vary in their specifics - because there are varied reasons people will choose to vote for Trump - but the result would be as you describe.

fuzzy math

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1860
  • Age: 43
  • Location: PNW
  • Trying to stay FIREd
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2020, 08:17:07 PM »
Is he even going to be alive and able to walk/speak in 5 yrs? I feel this is a moot point

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8371
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2020, 08:59:51 PM »
Gov. Mike Huckabee
@GovMikeHuckabee
I'll be on @seanhannity 2nite @FoxNews at 9pm ET and will explain how @realDonaldTrump will be eligible for a 3rd term due to the illegal attempts by Comey, Dems, and media , et al attempting to oust him as @POTUS so that's why I was named to head up the 2024 re-election.
1:42 PM · Dec 12, 2019
40.5K
45.9K people are Tweeting about this

They're falling over themselves to heap praise and admiration on him. Does anyone realize how close we are to the Soviet party committee where the first person to stop applauding goes to the gulag?

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11709
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2020, 10:21:37 PM »
Does anyone realize how close we are to the Soviet party committee where the first person to stop applauding goes to the gulag?
Not at all close.

Last I checked, Pelosi, Schumer, CNN, etc., aren't doing much applauding but are hardly "going to the gulag."

There are plenty of reasons to vote one way or another in Biden vs. Trump, but if anything "cancel culture" from the left seems a more apt comparison to lock-step Soviet ideology.

Travis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4947
  • Location: California
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2020, 10:40:06 PM »
Trump doesn’t joke. He floats ideas. Even his friends say that.

And his supporters pretend to care about the law, but are happy to ignore it when Trump talks about breaking it.

He's stated before that he means everything he Tweets, even when his spokespeople claim he's just trolling the media. He's doubled down on Tweets that were impossible to defend lies, implied or incited illegal activity, or were just bat shit insane.  Somehow I doubt he calls his friends ahead of time to let them in on the joke.  So either he intends to usurp the Constitution and is broadcasting it with a straight face, or he likes to joke about doing it.  Neither one makes me particularly comfortable.


The Tweet that started this thread is from December. What came out of that Hannity interview?

PDXTabs

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5160
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2020, 10:45:44 PM »
Is he even going to be alive and able to walk/speak in 5 yrs? I feel this is a moot point

We don't know how long he will live. But yes, he might be hanging out with Vladimir Lenin by then.

MasterStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2957
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2020, 06:56:44 AM »
There are plenty of reasons to vote one way or another in Biden vs. Trump, but if anything "cancel culture" from the left seems a more apt comparison to lock-step Soviet ideology.
Did Trump switch sides? Remind me of the "Obama golfs too much" nonsense. 
« Last Edit: September 02, 2020, 06:59:58 AM by MasterStache »

J Boogie

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1537
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2020, 08:48:03 AM »
Trump doesn’t joke. He floats ideas. Even his friends say that.

And his supporters pretend to care about the law, but are happy to ignore it when Trump talks about breaking it.

He's stated before that he means everything he Tweets, even when his spokespeople claim he's just trolling the media. He's doubled down on Tweets that were impossible to defend lies, implied or incited illegal activity, or were just bat shit insane.  Somehow I doubt he calls his friends ahead of time to let them in on the joke.  So either he intends to usurp the Constitution and is broadcasting it with a straight face, or he likes to joke about doing it.  Neither one makes me particularly comfortable.


The Tweet that started this thread is from December. What came out of that Hannity interview?

I can't find any footage of it.

I can find a very bad Huckabee video where he makes this argument solo in a late night style format complete with laugh track/studio audience laughing at his awful clunkers right on cue.

The tweet alone should dispel the idea that there is no seriousness to the interest in a 3rd term.

The poll results are interesting, to say the least. I'm not sure if the (so far) 3 people are trolling us when they respond that Trump deserves an exception because he is an exceptional president. I tried to use unbiased language to offer that as an option, as I think people might be reluctant to acknowledge that they have developed a religious devotion to the President that supersedes their devotion to the US Constitution.




MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11709
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2020, 08:49:43 AM »
There are plenty of reasons to vote one way or another in Biden vs. Trump, but if anything "cancel culture" from the left seems a more apt comparison to lock-step Soviet ideology.
Did Trump switch sides? Remind me of the "Obama golfs too much" nonsense.
I'll see that article and raise Cancel Culture Is Out of Control – Reason.com.  We can all agree Trump bloviates, but the CNN article only mentioned people Trump "tried to get canceled," while the Reason.com article discusses some of the people who actually have been affected.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 25625
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2020, 09:19:48 AM »
There are plenty of reasons to vote one way or another in Biden vs. Trump, but if anything "cancel culture" from the left seems a more apt comparison to lock-step Soviet ideology.
Did Trump switch sides? Remind me of the "Obama golfs too much" nonsense.
I'll see that article and raise Cancel Culture Is Out of Control – Reason.com.  We can all agree Trump bloviates, but the CNN article only mentioned people Trump "tried to get canceled," while the Reason.com article discusses some of the people who actually have been affected.

"Tried to get cancelled?"  Trump is an active part of cancel culture.

He said that he thought that NFL team managers should fire anyone who takes a knee during the national anthem.  Advice that the league took with Kaepernick . . . when he was blackballed despite above average performance.

Weird that the Reason article completely forgot such a high profile instance of cancel culture.  :P

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11709
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2020, 09:59:33 AM »
There are plenty of reasons to vote one way or another in Biden vs. Trump, but if anything "cancel culture" from the left seems a more apt comparison to lock-step Soviet ideology.
Did Trump switch sides? Remind me of the "Obama golfs too much" nonsense.
I'll see that article and raise Cancel Culture Is Out of Control – Reason.com.  We can all agree Trump bloviates, but the CNN article only mentioned people Trump "tried to get canceled," while the Reason.com article discusses some of the people who actually have been affected.

"Tried to get cancelled?"  Trump is an active part of cancel culture.

He said that he thought that NFL team managers should fire anyone who takes a knee during the national anthem.  Advice that the league took with Kaepernick . . . when he was blackballed despite above average performance.

Weird that the Reason article completely forgot such a high profile instance of cancel culture.  :P
The NFL owners did that because Trump forced them to?  Hah! Thanks for that humor. :)

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 25625
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2020, 10:04:41 AM »
There are plenty of reasons to vote one way or another in Biden vs. Trump, but if anything "cancel culture" from the left seems a more apt comparison to lock-step Soviet ideology.
Did Trump switch sides? Remind me of the "Obama golfs too much" nonsense.
I'll see that article and raise Cancel Culture Is Out of Control – Reason.com.  We can all agree Trump bloviates, but the CNN article only mentioned people Trump "tried to get canceled," while the Reason.com article discusses some of the people who actually have been affected.

"Tried to get cancelled?"  Trump is an active part of cancel culture.

He said that he thought that NFL team managers should fire anyone who takes a knee during the national anthem.  Advice that the league took with Kaepernick . . . when he was blackballed despite above average performance.

Weird that the Reason article completely forgot such a high profile instance of cancel culture.  :P
The NFL owners did that because Trump forced them to?  Hah! Thanks for that humor. :)

No, Trump didn't force the owners to do anything.  He used his position of power to rally a number of NFL fans to get Kaepernick cancelled.  Is that not how cancel culture works?  A bunch of people don't like something they see and demand that it be removed . . . then the campus, newspaper, or organization acquiesce?

Seems pretty clear cut in that instance.

SunnyDays

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3729
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2020, 10:17:44 AM »
I guess Putin will be flattered, since Trump seems to be imitating him.

the_gastropod

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 517
  • Age: 38
  • Location: RVA
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2020, 10:23:10 AM »
There are plenty of reasons to vote one way or another in Biden vs. Trump, but if anything "cancel culture" from the left seems a more apt comparison to lock-step Soviet ideology.
Did Trump switch sides? Remind me of the "Obama golfs too much" nonsense.
I'll see that article and raise Cancel Culture Is Out of Control – Reason.com.  We can all agree Trump bloviates, but the CNN article only mentioned people Trump "tried to get canceled," while the Reason.com article discusses some of the people who actually have been affected.

"Tried to get cancelled?"  Trump is an active part of cancel culture.

He said that he thought that NFL team managers should fire anyone who takes a knee during the national anthem.  Advice that the league took with Kaepernick . . . when he was blackballed despite above average performance.

Weird that the Reason article completely forgot such a high profile instance of cancel culture.  :P
The NFL owners did that because Trump forced them to?  Hah! Thanks for that humor. :)

No, Trump didn't force the owners to do anything.  He used his position of power to rally a number of NFL fans to get Kaepernick cancelled.  Is that not how cancel culture works?  A bunch of people don't like something they see and demand that it be removed . . . then the campus, newspaper, or organization acquiesce?

Seems pretty clear cut in that instance.

How can you expect MDM to effectively both-sides this if you hold the two sides to the same standard?

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11709
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2020, 10:27:42 AM »
There are plenty of reasons to vote one way or another in Biden vs. Trump, but if anything "cancel culture" from the left seems a more apt comparison to lock-step Soviet ideology.
Did Trump switch sides? Remind me of the "Obama golfs too much" nonsense.
I'll see that article and raise Cancel Culture Is Out of Control – Reason.com.  We can all agree Trump bloviates, but the CNN article only mentioned people Trump "tried to get canceled," while the Reason.com article discusses some of the people who actually have been affected.

"Tried to get cancelled?"  Trump is an active part of cancel culture.

He said that he thought that NFL team managers should fire anyone who takes a knee during the national anthem.  Advice that the league took with Kaepernick . . . when he was blackballed despite above average performance.

Weird that the Reason article completely forgot such a high profile instance of cancel culture.  :P
The NFL owners did that because Trump forced them to?  Hah! Thanks for that humor. :)

No, Trump didn't force the owners to do anything.  He used his position of power to rally a number of NFL fans to get Kaepernick cancelled.  Is that not how cancel culture works?  A bunch of people don't like something they see and demand that it be removed . . . then the campus, newspaper, or organization acquiesce?

Seems pretty clear cut in that instance.
I agree with your "A bunch of people..." description.

We differ on the extent to which we think Trump's opinion was the dominant impetus regarding Kaepernick.  One can peruse Colin Kaepernick kneeling timeline: How protests during the national anthem started a movement in the NFL | Sporting News and come to one's own conclusion.

the_gastropod

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 517
  • Age: 38
  • Location: RVA
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2020, 11:15:50 AM »
I agree with your "A bunch of people..." description.

We differ on the extent to which we think Trump's opinion was the dominant impetus regarding Kaepernick.  One can peruse Colin Kaepernick kneeling timeline: How protests during the national anthem started a movement in the NFL | Sporting News and come to one's own conclusion.

I think the point you're missing is that: this is what people complain about when they complain about cancel culture: the "mobs" demanding someone be fired. All GuitarStv was saying is: Trump enthusiastically participated in it, despite his very loud cries about how horrible it is.

MasterStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2957
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2020, 11:22:05 AM »
I agree with your "A bunch of people..." description.

We differ on the extent to which we think Trump's opinion was the dominant impetus regarding Kaepernick.  One can peruse Colin Kaepernick kneeling timeline: How protests during the national anthem started a movement in the NFL | Sporting News and come to one's own conclusion.

I think the point you're missing is that: this is what people complain about when they complain about cancel culture: the "mobs" demanding someone be fired. All GuitarStv was saying is: Trump enthusiastically participated in it, despite his very loud cries about how horrible it is.
+1
That's why I brought up Obama golfing. The right was in an uproar when Obama golfed. But trump golfing? Crickets of course. Both sides are not held to the same standard.

Maybe we should label the right as triggered culture. Uh oh, another black athlete knelt to protest racial injustice. Let's fire that SOB and boycott the "insert name of whatever sport."   

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11709
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2020, 11:24:48 AM »
I think the point you're missing is that: this is what people complain about when they complain about cancel culture: the "mobs" demanding someone be fired. All GuitarStv was saying is: Trump enthusiastically participated in it, despite his very loud cries about how horrible it is.

This side-discussion started with the following:
Does anyone realize how close we are to the Soviet party committee where the first person to stop applauding goes to the gulag?
Not at all close.
Last I checked, Pelosi, Schumer, CNN, etc., aren't doing much applauding but are hardly "going to the gulag."
There are plenty of reasons to vote one way or another in Biden vs. Trump, but if anything "cancel culture" from the left seems a more apt comparison to lock-step Soviet ideology.

What do you think of the examples Stossel mentioned in that article linked earlier?

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11709
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2020, 11:27:15 AM »
That's why I brought up Obama golfing. The right was in an uproar when Obama golfed. But trump golfing? Crickets of course. Both sides are not held to the same standard.

Maybe we should label the right as triggered culture. Uh oh, another black athlete knelt to protest racial injustice. Let's fire that SOB and boycott the "insert name of whatever sport."   

Yes, When Bush was in office, some irrational Democrats complained about his trips to his Crawford ranch. With Obama in office, some irrational Republicans argue that he golfs too much.

Both sides do it. :)

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 25625
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2020, 12:08:53 PM »
What do you think of the examples Stossel mentioned in that article linked earlier?

The examples are somewhat invalidated because they carefully exclude and ignore the many instances of "cancel culture" that originate from the right in the US - and therefore seems to amount to little more than selective political propaganda.  The article seems to be one of a great many that do this in a concerted propaganda effort to paint "cancel culture" as a significant problem and one that is left wing.

This would seem to strongly indicate a bad faith argument from the get go on the part of the writers, rather than any interest in supporting free speech.

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11709
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2020, 12:29:30 PM »
What do you think of the examples Stossel mentioned in that article linked earlier?
The examples are somewhat invalidated because they carefully exclude and ignore the many instances of "cancel culture" that originate from the right in the US - and therefore seems to amount to little more than selective political propaganda.  The article seems to be one of a great many that do this in a concerted propaganda effort to paint "cancel culture" as a significant problem and one that is left wing.

This would seem to strongly indicate a bad faith argument from the get go on the part of the writers, rather than any interest in supporting free speech.
The question isn't "what other examples of cancel culture are out there?"

It is "what do you think of the examples Stossel mentioned?"

J Boogie

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1537
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2020, 12:54:58 PM »
I think the right lacks the cultural capital to be able to execute on any cancellation attempts.

They may have the bully pulpit and try to, for example, cancel Goodyear - but it's ineffective. Trump can and does personally cancel (fire) non-loyalist cabinet members, but that's not really an example of cancel culture.

More and more, urban areas are growing in economic and cultural strength. They've always been more progressive, but now they are eclipsing rural areas so what we see is that employers have a default position of diversity and inclusion as their employees and customers are likely to appreciate or insist on this.

The ever vigilant twitter mobs know this and they act as watchdogs, alerting employers of any behavior that would undermine stated commitments to diversity and inclusion.

The only times I've seen where employers terminate employees for being too far to the left, these employees have gone beyond the pale and done something like harassment or inciting/threatening violence.


MasterStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2957
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2020, 01:08:43 PM »
Meh, there isn't really a definition of "cancel culture." It's the rights new catch phrase for demonizing the left, hypocritically no less. It seems as relevant as the non-existent "war in Christmas."

nessness

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1088
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2020, 01:18:18 PM »
I believe that very few of Trump's supporters would support him in a third term because most of them place a lot of value on the constitution and the constitutional amendments.
I honestly can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 25625
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2020, 01:29:39 PM »
What do you think of the examples Stossel mentioned in that article linked earlier?
The examples are somewhat invalidated because they carefully exclude and ignore the many instances of "cancel culture" that originate from the right in the US - and therefore seems to amount to little more than selective political propaganda.  The article seems to be one of a great many that do this in a concerted propaganda effort to paint "cancel culture" as a significant problem and one that is left wing.

This would seem to strongly indicate a bad faith argument from the get go on the part of the writers, rather than any interest in supporting free speech.
The question isn't "what other examples of cancel culture are out there?"

It is "what do you think of the examples Stossel mentioned?"

I think that the question itself is asked in bad faith, and is therefore not conductive to a discussion.

Have you stopped beating your wife?  A yes or no will suffice.

J Boogie

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1537
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2020, 01:30:29 PM »
Meh, there isn't really a definition of "cancel culture." It's the rights new catch phrase for demonizing the left, hypocritically no less. It seems as relevant as the non-existent "war in Christmas."

War on Christmas is eye-roll worthy hand wringing but cancel culture is a real thing. Twitter mobs really do influence employers and advertisers. Companies are quick to avoid PR nightmares and so they have an incentive to cede to the demands of the loudest voices on social media. Twitter mobs aren't really representative of more mainstream progressive folks, but what they lack in numbers they make up for in hyperbole and outrage.

What makes it tricky is that this is sometimes a very healthy action to take, especially if the cancellation of a person isn't meant to vengefully remove/reduce their income, but to deplatform their hateful ideas. The tricky part is that we don't all agree on what a hateful idea is, and simply insisting that an idea is hateful puts pressure on companies to take the path of least resistance even when ideas are not hateful.


MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11709
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2020, 01:45:25 PM »
What do you think of the examples Stossel mentioned in that article linked earlier?
The examples are somewhat invalidated because they carefully exclude and ignore the many instances of "cancel culture" that originate from the right in the US - and therefore seems to amount to little more than selective political propaganda.  The article seems to be one of a great many that do this in a concerted propaganda effort to paint "cancel culture" as a significant problem and one that is left wing.

This would seem to strongly indicate a bad faith argument from the get go on the part of the writers, rather than any interest in supporting free speech.
The question isn't "what other examples of cancel culture are out there?"

It is "what do you think of the examples Stossel mentioned?"

I think that the question itself is asked in bad faith, and is therefore not conductive to a discussion.
Your reluctance to comment speaks volumes.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 25625
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2020, 01:48:11 PM »
What do you think of the examples Stossel mentioned in that article linked earlier?
The examples are somewhat invalidated because they carefully exclude and ignore the many instances of "cancel culture" that originate from the right in the US - and therefore seems to amount to little more than selective political propaganda.  The article seems to be one of a great many that do this in a concerted propaganda effort to paint "cancel culture" as a significant problem and one that is left wing.

This would seem to strongly indicate a bad faith argument from the get go on the part of the writers, rather than any interest in supporting free speech.
The question isn't "what other examples of cancel culture are out there?"

It is "what do you think of the examples Stossel mentioned?"

I think that the question itself is asked in bad faith, and is therefore not conductive to a discussion.
Your reluctance to comment speaks volumes.

So does yours on the wife beating question.

:P

It's no fun to have a discussion when one party is operating in bad faith.

J Boogie

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1537
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2020, 01:59:05 PM »
Not to butt in Stv, but can you back up your claim about cancel culture? Do you have of examples of those who have been, in your opinion, unfairly fired or dropped by advertisers due to right wing outcry?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2020, 02:07:17 PM by J Boogie »

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11709
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2020, 02:09:46 PM »
What do you think of the examples Stossel mentioned in that article linked earlier?
The examples are somewhat invalidated because they carefully exclude and ignore the many instances of "cancel culture" that originate from the right in the US - and therefore seems to amount to little more than selective political propaganda.  The article seems to be one of a great many that do this in a concerted propaganda effort to paint "cancel culture" as a significant problem and one that is left wing.

This would seem to strongly indicate a bad faith argument from the get go on the part of the writers, rather than any interest in supporting free speech.
The question isn't "what other examples of cancel culture are out there?"

It is "what do you think of the examples Stossel mentioned?"

I think that the question itself is asked in bad faith, and is therefore not conductive to a discussion.
Your reluctance to comment speaks volumes.
So does yours on the wife beating question.

:P

It's no fun to have a discussion when one party is operating in bad faith.
I asked first. ;)

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 25625
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2020, 02:50:34 PM »
Not to butt in Stv, but can you back up your claim about cancel culture? Do you have of examples of those who have been, in your opinion, unfairly fired or dropped by advertisers due to right wing outcry?

Absolutely.  So called 'cancel culture' comes from outrage.  Is there anyone in the room who honestly believes that outrage only exists on one side of the political spectrum?

We already discussed Kaepernick, but off the top of my head there's also the firing of Bill Maher for saying that the 9/11 bombers were brave, and the backlash and exclusion from country music awards/fans that the Dixie Chicks experienced after saying they didn't support the war in Iraq.  There was JK Rowling suing criticism of her transphobic tweets into silence.  Using money to cancel the views and opinions of people that you don't agree with is very common on the right . . . see just about any action taken by the Koch brothers (does anyone remember when they funded a 'documentary' showing that Fauci caused the coronavirus in an attempt to discredit him into silence?).

If we want to talk about intolerance of dissent amongst conservative there's a lot of evidence as well.  There was Sol Stern's resignation from the conservative Manhattan Institute after it started censoring criticism of Trump in The City Journal,  the shuttering of Conservative anti-Trump website the Bulwark by major Republican donor Philip Anschutz, Max Boot's censored criticism of supply side economics in the Wall Street Journal, Trump's forcing of Army Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman into retirement for truthfully testifying in the impeachment proceedings, etc.

Hell . . . in a broader sense, many conservative platforms are "cancel culture".  Imagine if it was legal to fire someone not because they did anything wrong . . . but simply because that person was gay?  Or transgender?


And now we come to the anointed one . . . Donald J Trump himself.  One of the biggest and most outspoken critics of cancel culture.  For a partial list of the deeply felt need for inclusiveness and understanding:
Quote
August 2012: Trump says Black journalist Touré, then a co-host of the MSNBC show "The Cycle," should be "forced to resign" for comments in which Touré uttered a variant of the N-word while arguing that Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney was using racially coded language to try to make President Barack Obama seem frightening. (Touré had apologized before Trump's demand.)
November 2012: Trump suggests the firing of then-MSNBC host Chris Matthews for saying, on the night of Obama's victory, that he was "so glad" Hurricane Sandy had occurred, because of its political impact. (Matthews had apologized before Trump's suggestion.)
December 2012: Trump calls for the firing of Vanity Fair magazine Editor Graydon Carter, with whom he had feuded for years, over what he declares the magazine's "worst ever issue."
December 2012: Trump says "Scots should boycott Glenfiddich garbage" because the whisky brand selected Michael Forbes, a farmer who refused to sell his land to make way for a Trump golf course, as "Top Scot" of the year.
March 2013: Trump says, "Everyone should cancel HBO until they fire low life dummy Bill Maher! Get going now and feel good about yourself!"
July 2013: Trump asks people to "boycott & cancel subscriptions" to Rolling Stone magazine because of a cover featuring Boston Marathon terrorist Dzhokhar Tsarnaev.
October 2013: Trump urges "everybody possible" to "cancel their subscription" to New York Magazine over an insulting tweet about Trump's marriage from Dan Amira, who was online editor at the time.
March 2014: After Trump is left off a CNBC list of the most influential business leaders, he says, "Stupid poll should be canceled—no credibility."
May 2014: Trump calls for the firing of, or at least an apology from, the person at The Oklahoman newspaper who wrote a headline calling then-Oklahoma City Thunder NBA star Kevin Durant "Mr. Unreliable." (The newspaper had already apologized.)
June 2014: Trump says people should "Boycott Mexico" until a Marine reservist who was jailed for crossing the border with loaded guns is released from prison. (He was released later in the year.)
April 2015: Trump suggests that conservative writer Jonah Goldberg, then a senior editor of National Review magazine, should be forced to resign for writing that Trump had been "tweeting like a 14-year-old girl" in response to another conservative writer calling Trump a clown. Trump also suggests Fox News anchor Bret Baier should stop having Goldberg on his show.
June 2015: When Spanish-language television network Univision severed its business relationship with Trump after his campaign launch speech, in which he labeled Mexican immigrants as criminals and rapists, Trump tweets, "Anyone who wants strong borders and good trade deals for the US should boycott @Univision."
July 2015: Trump calls for a boycott of Macy's after Macy's discontinued its business dealings with him over those same comments about people from Mexico. Trump also tweets "Great" when someone tells him that people are canceling their Macy's credit cards.
August 2015: Trump calls for the firing of the late conservative writer and Fox News commentator Charles Krauthammer, a regular Trump critic.
September 2015: After National Review editor Rich Lowry argued on Fox News that rival Republican candidate Carly Fiorina had "cut off (Trump's) balls with the precision of a surgeon" in a primary debate, Trump says: "Incompetent @RichLowry lost it tonight on @FoxNews. He should not be allowed on TV and the FCC should fine him!" (Lowry responds, "I love how Mr. Anti-PC now wants the FCC to fine me. #pathetic.")
December 2015: Trump calls for the firing of then-CBS News journalist Sopan Deb and NBC/MSNBC journalist Katy Tur over reporting he disputed about how he handled protesters during a rally speech.
February 2016: Trump says people should "boycott all Apple products" until the company stops fighting a government request to break into the cell phone of a deceased California terrorist.
February 2016: Trump says Fox News should fire Republican strategist and commentator Karl Rove for being insufficiently positive about his victory in the Nevada caucuses.
February 2016: Trump calls on the Wall Street Journal to fire its editorial board, which had criticized him, and its pollster, which showed results he didn't like.
March 2016: Trump proposes a boycott of Megyn Kelly's Fox News show, complaining that it is too negative toward him.
September 2016: After the Dallas Morning News and Arizona Republic newspapers endorse Hillary Clinton for president and USA Today declares Trump unfit for the office, Trump says, "The people are really smart in cancelling subscriptions to the Dallas & Arizona papers & now USA Today will lose readers! The people get it!"
September 2017: Trump tweets that NFL players and other athletes who don't stand for the National Anthem should be told, "YOU'RE FIRED." He says in another tweet, "Fire or suspend!" And at a rally, he says, "Wouldn't you love to see one of these NFL owners when somebody disrespects our flag to say, 'Get that son of a bitch off the field right now, out, he's fired, he's fired.' "
October 2017: Suggesting he could use the power of the state against media entities he dislikes, Trump muses about challenging the broadcast licenses of NBC and other networks over their news coverage. (He again broached the subject of reviewing NBC's license in September 2018.)
November 2017: Trump calls for a boycott of CNN.
August 2018: Trump tweets, "Many @harleydavidson owners plan to boycott the company if manufacturing moves overseas. Great! Most other companies are coming in our direction, including Harley competitors."
June 2019: Trump suggests people stop "using or subscribing" to AT&T to pressure the company to make changes at CNN, which it owns.
September 2019: Trump suggests that actress Debra Messing should be fired for calling on a news outlet to publish the names of people attending a Trump fundraiser and for a tweet promoting a church sign that said "a black vote for Trump is mental illness." (Messing had apologized for the tweet about the church sign.)
January 2020: Trump says The New York Times should fire columnist Paul Krugman, a winner of the Nobel Prize in economics, for having incorrectly predicted a global recession after Trump's victory in 2016.
May 2020: The day after Twitter appended a fact check link to dishonest Trump claims about mail-in voting, Trump threatens to shut down social media companies: "Republicans feel that Social Media Platforms totally silence conservatives voices. We will strongly regulate, or close them down, before we can ever allow this to happen."
May 2020: Trump seeks the firing of Chuck Todd, host of NBC's "Meet the Press," for the show playing a misleadingly shortened clip of comments by Attorney General William Barr. (Todd apologized, saying it was an inadvertent mistake.) Again broaching the power of the state, Trump tags the accounts of the Federal Communications Commission, which regulates television, and its chairman, Ajit Pai.
- https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/07/politics/fact-check-trump-cancel-culture-boycotts-firings/index.html



So yeah . . . plenty of 'cancel culture' to go around on the conservative side of things.  Arguing that it's a new thing, or that it exists only on one political side is a facile and disingenuous line of reasoning . . . and it's one that is made in bad faith.

J Boogie

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1537
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2020, 03:22:56 PM »
Stv,  I concede that you are right that both sides of the ideological spectrum are guilty of these vindictive power plays. I'm wouldn't categorize many of your instances as cancel culture, but I think it's probably a difference without a distinction.

The difference I do notice is that in this day and age, right wing consumers and employees lack the cultural influence and power to move the needle on cancelling their opponents. The vindictive power plays from those on the right seem to be mostly coming from individuals with far more resources than the average twitter user.  I see left wing twitter trolls wielding far more cancellation power than their right wing counterparts, which is pretty fascinating. Maybe there's more to it than my earlier theory about urban areas (which overwhelmingly tend to be more progressive) and how their growing economic and cultural power lead to this, but I'd have to think more about it.

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7807
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2020, 05:32:06 PM »
Stv,  I concede that you are right that both sides of the ideological spectrum are guilty of these vindictive power plays. I'm wouldn't categorize many of your instances as cancel culture, but I think it's probably a difference without a distinction.

The difference I do notice is that in this day and age, right wing consumers and employees lack the cultural influence and power to move the needle on cancelling their opponents. The vindictive power plays from those on the right seem to be mostly coming from individuals with far more resources than the average twitter user.  I see left wing twitter trolls wielding far more cancellation power than their right wing counterparts, which is pretty fascinating. Maybe there's more to it than my earlier theory about urban areas (which overwhelmingly tend to be more progressive) and how their growing economic and cultural power lead to this, but I'd have to think more about it.

One of things the 538 coverage of the RNC mentioned was that few people watching had even heard of "cancel culture." It just wasn't in the personal realm of many viewers simply because they don't pay attention to Twitter.

It's a clear indication of a bubble and we're in it.

scottish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2832
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2020, 06:13:06 PM »
Stv,  I concede that you are right that both sides of the ideological spectrum are guilty of these vindictive power plays. I'm wouldn't categorize many of your instances as cancel culture, but I think it's probably a difference without a distinction.

The difference I do notice is that in this day and age, right wing consumers and employees lack the cultural influence and power to move the needle on cancelling their opponents. The vindictive power plays from those on the right seem to be mostly coming from individuals with far more resources than the average twitter user.  I see left wing twitter trolls wielding far more cancellation power than their right wing counterparts, which is pretty fascinating. Maybe there's more to it than my earlier theory about urban areas (which overwhelmingly tend to be more progressive) and how their growing economic and cultural power lead to this, but I'd have to think more about it.

The nature of conservatism is being slow to adopt new things such as Twitter and new ideas such as cultural influence.     This is perfectly natural behaviour.

Norioch

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 328
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2020, 09:16:03 PM »
I never supported him anyway, but yes, it does scare me. I genuinely think he will try, and might succeed.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 25625
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2020, 07:37:20 AM »
Stv,  I concede that you are right that both sides of the ideological spectrum are guilty of these vindictive power plays. I'm wouldn't categorize many of your instances as cancel culture, but I think it's probably a difference without a distinction.

The difference I do notice is that in this day and age, right wing consumers and employees lack the cultural influence and power to move the needle on cancelling their opponents. The vindictive power plays from those on the right seem to be mostly coming from individuals with far more resources than the average twitter user.  I see left wing twitter trolls wielding far more cancellation power than their right wing counterparts, which is pretty fascinating. Maybe there's more to it than my earlier theory about urban areas (which overwhelmingly tend to be more progressive) and how their growing economic and cultural power lead to this, but I'd have to think more about it.

The nature of conservatism is being slow to adopt new things such as Twitter and new ideas such as cultural influence.     This is perfectly natural behaviour.

Conservatives have traditionally used religion and other long standing power structures to exert cultural influence over things . . . but it's flat out wrong to say that they don't use or are slow to adopt social media.  Facebook, twitter, instagram, whatsapp, tumblr, pinterest, viber . . . all have large numbers of conservative content producers and consumers.  Conservative traditional media (tv/radio) is now so far to the right that they claim generally unbiased news is left wing.

I suspect that the relative lack of success they've been having recently is more due to the fact that the modern (socially) conservative message isn't very logically consistent.
Save the babies from abortion - every life is precious!/Fuck the babies on food stamps - life isn't worth dollars!
Let the free market control everything! / Fuck immigrants, they work for less money!
Religion is super important, devotion and church going is how you live a good life and should inform most of your decisions / Fuck Muslims!
We need to do something about crime! / Fuck background checks for weapons! Fuck proven prison programs that reduce recidivism!
FREEEDUMB! / We have to suppress the vote at every chance, especially those nasty black people!)
There is no such thing as racism! / We love our openly racist president!

There's a level of doublethink required to go along with these messages that just doesn't seem to be winning over the majority of people these days.

brandon1827

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 556
  • Location: Tennessee
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2020, 08:18:25 AM »
In this scenario where it's magically okay to run for more than two terms...would that not open the door for an extremely popular former president such as Barack Obama to run again?

Wouldn't an Obama vs. Trump presidential race just be amazing? Man I'd love to see those two on stage together in a debate

J Boogie

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1537
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2020, 08:53:31 AM »
Stv,  I concede that you are right that both sides of the ideological spectrum are guilty of these vindictive power plays. I'm wouldn't categorize many of your instances as cancel culture, but I think it's probably a difference without a distinction.

The difference I do notice is that in this day and age, right wing consumers and employees lack the cultural influence and power to move the needle on cancelling their opponents. The vindictive power plays from those on the right seem to be mostly coming from individuals with far more resources than the average twitter user.  I see left wing twitter trolls wielding far more cancellation power than their right wing counterparts, which is pretty fascinating. Maybe there's more to it than my earlier theory about urban areas (which overwhelmingly tend to be more progressive) and how their growing economic and cultural power lead to this, but I'd have to think more about it.

The nature of conservatism is being slow to adopt new things such as Twitter and new ideas such as cultural influence.     This is perfectly natural behaviour.

Conservatives have traditionally used religion and other long standing power structures to exert cultural influence over things . . . but it's flat out wrong to say that they don't use or are slow to adopt social media.  Facebook, twitter, instagram, whatsapp, tumblr, pinterest, viber . . . all have large numbers of conservative content producers and consumers.  Conservative traditional media (tv/radio) is now so far to the right that they claim generally unbiased news is left wing.

I suspect that the relative lack of success they've been having recently is more due to the fact that the modern (socially) conservative message isn't very logically consistent.
Save the babies from abortion - every life is precious!/Fuck the babies on food stamps - life isn't worth dollars!
Let the free market control everything! / Fuck immigrants, they work for less money!
Religion is super important, devotion and church going is how you live a good life and should inform most of your decisions / Fuck Muslims!
We need to do something about crime! / Fuck background checks for weapons! Fuck proven prison programs that reduce recidivism!
FREEEDUMB! / We have to suppress the vote at every chance, especially those nasty black people!)
There is no such thing as racism! / We love our openly racist president!

There's a level of doublethink required to go along with these messages that just doesn't seem to be winning over the majority of people these days.

I don't think conservatives' lack of success in canceling ideological opponents has much to do with ideological consistency (or lack thereof).

You state how the internet and legacy media (I find the internet, especially youtube has far more right wing content creators and consumers than legacy media) have plenty of conservatives, but then say they're not winning the majority over these days. But that doesn't make much sense, as you acknowledge that conservative ideas have significant purchase in legacy and new media.

As I mentioned earlier, I think it has far less to do with the content of the message and far more to do with the continued economic and cultural rise of major cities. As rural areas are left in the dust, adherents of rural politics have less and less power to exert on institutions.

Meanwhile adherents of urban politics are heavily catered to as employers rely on attracting them, especially the young and tech savvy ones, to maintain a high quality workforce.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 25625
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2020, 09:42:03 AM »
You state how the internet and legacy media (I find the internet, especially youtube has far more right wing content creators and consumers than legacy media) have plenty of conservatives, but then say they're not winning the majority over these days. But that doesn't make much sense, as you acknowledge that conservative ideas have significant purchase in legacy and new media.

No, that's not the argument that I was trying to make.  I was just pointing out that there's a significant presence of extreme right wing viewpoints in the various social media platforms.  I've got no data or idea if there are more or fewer than in traditional media - just that it's not a situation where they're not able to get their message out.



As I mentioned earlier, I think it has far less to do with the content of the message and far more to do with the continued economic and cultural rise of major cities. As rural areas are left in the dust, adherents of rural politics have less and less power to exert on institutions.

Meanwhile adherents of urban politics are heavily catered to as employers rely on attracting them, especially the young and tech savvy ones, to maintain a high quality workforce.

You're identifying a symptom of the argument I was making.  The Republican message has a lot to do with why urban areas are more democratic:

1. As mentioned, the socially conservative message is often contradictory and logically inconsistent (from religious based arguments against abortion to nonsense about climate change).  This is less appealing to educated people and it's evidenced by the significantly higher number (22% more - https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2015/04/07/a-deep-dive-into-party-affiliation/) of folks with secondary education who vote Democratic.

2. Republicans have wholeheartedly embraced racism as a platform.  This naturally alienates people of colour . . . and a much larger proportion of them live in urban areas.  Republican racism has cost them the black vote to Democrats by about a 70% margin (https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2015/04/07/a-deep-dive-into-party-affiliation/)

3.  Republicans have also turned their backs on moderates.  Look at how radically the right wing message has changed in the US over the past 30 years.  The message has moved much further right than ever before . . . to the point that Republican policies from the 80s are actually considered left wing policies today and championed by the Democrats.  It has also moved completely away from fiscal conservatism to social conservatism . . . this has gained them many religious votes, but at urban areas skew much less church going than rural areas.

4.  People in rural areas own firearms at more than twice the rate of those in urban areas (https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/22/the-demographics-of-gun-ownership/).  There's naturally more support for guns from rural areas - and the Republican party is the party of easy gun ownership.  This hurts them in cities.

Fortunately for the Republicans, US politics are still skewed strongly against cities and urban areas and reduce the value and impact of the voters who live in them.

J Boogie

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1537
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2020, 10:06:10 AM »

Republicans have also turned their backs on moderates.  Look at how radically the right wing message has changed in the US over the past 30 years.  The message has moved much further right than ever before . . . to the point that Republican policies from the 80s are actually considered left wing policies today and championed by the Democrats.

Their attempts to gain moderates are pretty pathetic right now. Fear mongering about Joe Hiden (probably one of Trump's better epithets, tbh) the socialist trojan horse and the soft on crime yet ruthless DA Kamala Harris are really a stretch, but sort of expected - but the one that really makes me roll my eyes is the claim that the Democrats will abolish the suburbs... by increasing individuals' freedom to capitalize on their property.


talltexan

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5350
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2020, 11:45:12 AM »
Perhaps it was just my local area, but in 1987, it felt as though Ronald Reagan were overwhelmingly popular, that all he had to do was state his intention and the national consensus was that he could continue as President somehow.

If Donald Trump enjoys that kind of popularity, what would be wrong with him seeking another term? Can I believe the statements of Mike Huckabee (as a proxy) reliably indicate he would have that intention?

Indeed, he basically started his 2020 campaign in winter 2017. If he wins this November, won't we find out pretty quickly on what his intentions for 2024 are?

J Boogie

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1537
Re: Does Trump's interest in 3+ terms give you pause in supporting him?
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2020, 12:00:45 PM »
Perhaps it was just my local area, but in 1987, it felt as though Ronald Reagan were overwhelmingly popular, that all he had to do was state his intention and the national consensus was that he could continue as President somehow.

If Donald Trump enjoys that kind of popularity, what would be wrong with him seeking another term? Can I believe the statements of Mike Huckabee (as a proxy) reliably indicate he would have that intention?

Indeed, he basically started his 2020 campaign in winter 2017. If he wins this November, won't we find out pretty quickly on what his intentions for 2024 are?

Based on Mike Huckabee's unrefuted statement that he was "named" to head up 2024 campaign, I think it would be unreasonable to suspect that Huckabee was acting alone and lying about it.

What would be wrong? Well, it would violate the US Constitution. Specifically, the 22nd amendment. If he'd like to try and get it overturned legally, good luck. But if he attempts to defy our constitution, he should be regarded as a domestic enemy of it and treated accordingly.