Author Topic: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?  (Read 38047 times)

TrMama

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #50 on: April 03, 2021, 06:44:47 PM »
We have a very similar setup in BC. It's called mature minor consent and it starts at 11. Since my kids are 12 and 14 it comes up every time they get a covid test. When I call to make an appointment for testing, I have to hand the phone to the teen for them to give their consent to be tested. Then when it's time to access their results I simply give the tester my cell# instead of the teen's #. I do this with the consent of the teens. Their take is that they don't want to have to take on the boring administration of their health info. They prefer for me to make the appointments, remind them the day of, drive them there and deal with any resulting insurance admin. In the words of my 12yo, "Mom, I still sleep with a teddy bear. I shouldn't be managing my own health info." Although after reading some of the stuff here I'll make sure they have all their doctors and dentists numbers added to the contacts list on their phones just in case.

Mature minor consent is also relevant during school vaccinations. Regardless of what I write on the consent form that goes out before the scheduled vaccination day, the teens can either decline a vaccination I signed the consent form for, or they can consent to receive a vaccine if I tried to prevent them from getting it. The end result is that we have lots of conversations in our house about how important it is to get medical treatment (vaccines, medicine, surgery, etc) when it's in your best interest even if the procedure itself is unpleasant.

I'm finding the side discussion on transgender teens, by people who don't even have kids, to be very weird. Perhaps I should postulate on how single people should run their lives and what medical treatments they're entitled to?

iris lily

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #51 on: April 03, 2021, 06:45:13 PM »
Seeing the patient’s health record would show you what the patient talked with the provider about. Treatment is an entirely separate issue. All this does is keep the parent out of the chart once the patient is 13. You’re panicking over nothing.
I am not panicking. What a silly emotion to ascribe to me. Keeping parents out of a minor’s medical chart/records along with boyfriends, girlfriends, social workers, teachers, interested neighbors, internet strangers, etc. seems fine to me.

There are other things related to minors and healthcare that we’re not allowed to talk about in this thread that may not always be so great.  I didn’t understand that even though posts 2, 5, 8 and probably others do. It was probably the “ phalloplasty” surgery comment that triggered my initial wrong-speak.

But OK not allowed. Got it.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 06:53:40 PM by iris lily »

Malcat

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #52 on: April 03, 2021, 07:13:07 PM »
Seeing the patient’s health record would show you what the patient talked with the provider about. Treatment is an entirely separate issue. All this does is keep the parent out of the chart once the patient is 13. You’re panicking over nothing.
I am not panicking. What a silly emotion to ascribe to me. Keeping parents out of a minor’s medical chart/records along with boyfriends, girlfriends, social workers, teachers, interested neighbors, internet strangers, etc. seems fine to me.

There are other things related to minors and healthcare that we’re not allowed to talk about in this thread that may not always be so great.  I didn’t understand that even though posts 2, 5, 8 and probably others do. It was probably the “ phalloplasty” surgery comment that triggered my initial wrong-speak.

But OK not allowed. Got it.

It's not that you can't talk about it, it's that a perfectly valid debate about accessing records got railroaded into a debate about a book you read about kids transitioning even though that had nothing to do with the subject at hand.

In my first reply to you, I specifically said that that was another valid debate to have, but that it wasn't the same issue. Then you were confused how it wasn't the same issue, so I explained further.

If you want to have a full on debate about something that has nothing to do with the original question of the thread, go ahead, you wouldn't be the first person to derail a thread, and if others would rather talk about that than the actual subject matter of the OP, then by all means. Other threads of serious subject matter have been derailed into a series of puns about cheese. I'm not going to stop you.

I just wanted it made clear what the rule in the OP is about and what is ISN'T about. If people are done with that subject matter, by all means, have a lengthy discussion about a different matter if that's what you and others want to discuss.

All I wanted was clarity. I don't like things being presented as something they aren't. It makes me batty.

MudPuppy

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #53 on: April 03, 2021, 09:55:53 PM »
Catastrophizing then? A rather logical regulation gets somehow wound up in major surgeries because you read a book by someone who was panicking.

Morning Glory

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #54 on: April 03, 2021, 10:09:21 PM »
Catastrophizing then? A rather logical regulation gets somehow wound up in major surgeries because you read a book by someone who was panicking.

The conservative outrage machine is very efficient.

Zamboni

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #55 on: April 05, 2021, 05:19:07 PM »
Let's put reproductive and gender rights aside for a moment. Y'all are in for a rude awakening if your child of any age ever has what personnel at a hospital thinks is a life threatening condition. Guess what: in most states, as a parent you have no rights to refuse treatment or decide upon the course of treatment. These laws were often passed after some children died when parents denied permission to give a basic blood transfusion the child needed after a car crash, for example.

I found this out when a hospital miscalculated my newborn son's weight at the last weigh in right before he was supposed to be discharged. They decided he had lost a bunch of weight and need to be hospitalized. We were like "you are crazy, he is fine, we are taking him home." and they were like "Oh, no, he is not going anywhere, you have no right to make the decision to take him home, and we are about to give him an IV and hook him up to these machines." It was only through a calm discussion that I figured out that the nurse had made a mistake converting grams to pounds, I know the conversion formulas so I did the math in my head and asked her to check again, and they eventually relented and released him . . . but they never apologized or admitted they made a mistake, though.

It was very eye opening. Parents really have few rights in this area. And, honestly, there are plenty of circumstances where parents absolutely should lose their rights to decide medical treatment for their children, so I can't even argue about the laws. Because some people are fucking morons. And those people ruin it for the rest of us.

Your control over the medical future of your child is an illusion.

Morning Glory

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #56 on: April 05, 2021, 06:00:40 PM »
@Zamboni I'm sorry that happened to you. I agree that they should have apologized for the mistake. Those laws do have a reason though. So many moms get so caught up in the benefits of breastfeeding that they fail to notice that their child is starving. New parents are sleep deprived and so obsessed over doing the right thing that they simply can't process when it isn't working. Formula isn't poison.

And I'm another thread derailer. Lol

Zamboni

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #57 on: April 05, 2021, 07:46:41 PM »
Ah, yes, that would make sense. They clearly had a "baby is losing weight, can't leave" drill and that didn't occur to me.

Back on topic, it seems to me that parents who don't let their children have any privacy are creating people who will have major, major challenges enforcing normal boundaries when they become adults.

Abe

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #58 on: April 05, 2021, 08:04:14 PM »
Ah, yes, that would make sense. They clearly had a "baby is losing weight, can't leave" drill and that didn't occur to me.

Back on topic, it seems to me that parents who don't let their children have any privacy are creating people who will have major, major challenges enforcing normal boundaries when they become adults.

Yeah, hospitals have a lot of automatic safeguards for newborns. Turns out most people have no idea how to take care of one (including trained healthcare personnel like myself), so it helps to have some criteria. Obviously there should be some kind of re-evaluation to make sure the data isn't incorrectly entered. I had a message recently from my medical record system sent me an alert that an (adult) patient of mine had lost 3" of height in a week, then had to fill out a note explaining they haven't suddenly lost a vertebra and it was an error (it wasn't really clear what the note was for, so that's what I put).

On an aside: discharges are super annoying in training hospitals because the attending physician or surgeon has to confirm (by law) that it's ok to send someone home that day. So if something changes, it goes from the nurse to the intern to the senior resident to the fellow to the attending, then back down. Most serious errors are made during admission to and discharge from the hospital, so as a result many safeguards are in place. Basically it is better to inconvenience a lot of people than have someone go home and die. I explain this in clinic to my patients so they don't get pissed and know what is going on. This is made especially hard with COVID since visitors haven't been allowed on the hospital floors for over a year now.

Derailing this thread is fun.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2021, 08:06:34 PM by Abe »

Morning Glory

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #59 on: April 05, 2021, 09:50:51 PM »
Ah, yes, that would make sense. They clearly had a "baby is losing weight, can't leave" drill and that didn't occur to me.

Back on topic, it seems to me that parents who don't let their children have any privacy are creating people who will have major, major challenges enforcing normal boundaries when they become adults.

Yeah, hospitals have a lot of automatic safeguards for newborns. Turns out most people have no idea how to take care of one (including trained healthcare personnel like myself), so it helps to have some criteria. Obviously there should be some kind of re-evaluation to make sure the data isn't incorrectly entered. I had a message recently from my medical record system sent me an alert that an (adult) patient of mine had lost 3" of height in a week, then had to fill out a note explaining they haven't suddenly lost a vertebra and it was an error (it wasn't really clear what the note was for, so that's what I put).

On an aside: discharges are super annoying in training hospitals because the attending physician or surgeon has to confirm (by law) that it's ok to send someone home that day. So if something changes, it goes from the nurse to the intern to the senior resident to the fellow to the attending, then back down. Most serious errors are made during admission to and discharge from the hospital, so as a result many safeguards are in place. Basically it is better to inconvenience a lot of people than have someone go home and die. I explain this in clinic to my patients so they don't get pissed and know what is going on. This is made especially hard with COVID since visitors haven't been allowed on the hospital floors for over a year now.

Derailing this thread is fun.

Haha I was a floor nurse when I had my first baby. First day back from mat leave was July 1.  🤣

You are a saint for telling people that discharge can take a while. They really have unrealistic expectations.

Both my babies were behind on their weight at the 2 month checkup and I had no idea, I just thought they were fussy. We all slept a lot better once we started supplementing with formula.

jeninco

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #60 on: April 06, 2021, 11:42:59 AM »
To drag this back on topic (kinda...), as @Malcat has pointed out there are a whole bunch of good reasons why adolescents (and even tweens) should be able -- and expected-- to have private conversations with their health care people. When our pediatrician retired (when my boys were perhaps ... 13 and 16?) one of the criteria we used for "appropriate teenager appointment" was that I wasn't in there for the majority of it. In fact, we knew we had a winner for a PCP when the PA came out from his appointment to ask me for permission to do a liver screening "for baseline data before he goes off to college." 

I thought "very well played, since he obviously told you how much he's drinking, but you can't tell me", but simply said "yes, sure."

For some kids, there's the added benefit of getting practice raising concerns and asking questions of a health care professional in a somewhat more supportive environment, before they turn 21 and have to manage things entirely by themselves.

And we live in a bastion of liberal-ness, but there are still plenty of high school aged girls (largely, but not entirely) who don't want their parents to know they need birth control. Or STD treatment. Or counseling. Or ....

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #61 on: April 06, 2021, 11:54:55 AM »

Teens are too frequently abused or kicked out of their homes because of reproductive health/sexual issues (happened to my cousin), or parents may refuse to take a child to a clinic to have such issues treated.



OtherJen, your post of this execrable,  parental maltreatment of their minor children is among the reasons I support medical privacy for them.

honeybbq

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #62 on: April 06, 2021, 01:23:26 PM »
How can they require people to pay for medical procedures they didn't know about?  That's going to be tough for parents to swallow and for hospitals to collect.   

I never thought about it from that aspect.   Maybe hospitals don't charge children for tests and such?

Not sure this is entirely true. Phalloplasty has got to come with a pretty heavy price tag.

The years of 13 to 18 are so problematic with health and other issues.

But it sure gives me pause to know that 13 year olds can  get body changing hormones, testosterone and etc, with little to no therapeutic intervention or requirement in some places. These hormones do permanent damage and are not reversible when the teen decides to “de transition.”

What on Earth?

Ockhamist

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #63 on: April 07, 2021, 07:14:05 AM »
Worse yet, some of them go the bathroom at Target.

GuitarStv

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #64 on: April 07, 2021, 07:41:47 AM »
Worse yet, some of them go the bathroom at Target.

Are they known for leaving upper deckers?  If not, I somehow feel little reason for outrage/concern.

Ockhamist

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2021, 07:46:32 AM »
Worse yet, some of them go the bathroom at Target.

Are they known for leaving upper deckers?  If not, I somehow feel little reason for outrage/concern.

Bah, you're Canadian.  You don't appreciate Target and thus cannot appreciate the vital gender-normative role its bathrooms play in 'Murican society.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 07:50:01 AM by Ockhamist »

EvenSteven

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2021, 08:01:37 AM »
Worse yet, some of them go the bathroom at Target.

Are they known for leaving upper deckers?  If not, I somehow feel little reason for outrage/concern.

Bah, you're Canadian.  You don't appreciate Target and thus cannot appreciate the vital gender-normative role its bathrooms play in 'Murican society.

I feel the need to remind everyone that Jordan Peterson is, in fact, Canadian.

Botany Bae

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2021, 08:07:45 AM »
God, I tried to not to get invested in this thread before, but you know how that goes...

I've been married to a trans person for almost 20 years, and with her for longer. We've raised two wonderful, well adjusted children together. The ignorance some people have about trans people, particularly hurtful, hateful parents, is disgusting. Further, the idea of "protecting girls," whether it's from trans people in bathrooms (I know the above comment was sarcastic and not serious) or from themselves because they are questioning their own gender identity is infuriating to me as a woman. Nine times out of ten people want to protect women and girls from themselves, as though we don't deserve any autonomy. No one here has specifically singled out boys when it comes to medical privacy. Ask yourself why, hmm?

Kids NEED privacy from their parents, even if they have a healthy relationship with their parents. Fuck all, were none of you ever kids? Do you not remember the anxiety for what is now stupid little things that you felt? Now imagine that magnified if you have less than understanding parents, religious zealot parents, abusive parents, or authoritarian parents. Teachers, scout leaders, and yes -- MEDICAL DOCTORS -- are sometimes the only point of intervention and safety for oh so many kids.

So a couple of girls take some hormone arrestors that they later regret, as allegedly put forth by an author with an agenda. You know what they and their parents would likely regret more? If those kids had killed themselves or gotten on opiates in an effort to alleviate whatever they were going through. Because that is likely the alternative of what happens. My partner volunteers with trans youth, many are homeless because those loving parents that deserved to know all about their kid's medical care kicked them out on the street. Some of these kids are only 13 or 14 years old. A LOT of them turn to prostitution to get by, and most eventually end up raped, beaten, and addicted to drugs. And those are the lucky ones.

Let us use our brains for a moment. Let's suppose that there is a more than negligible amount of teen girls transitioning to male then later regretting it. Why is this? It's not because they got to talk to their doctor in private (spoiler, hormones can be found online without a doc, a committed kid will get them one way or another). No, it's because they live in a society where they feel they have no power, and for some reason having a penis makes them think they will have power, autonomy, and happiness. Why is that, I wonder? But yeah, let's attack the idea of medical privacy instead of looking at what we are really doing, as a society, to our kids.

I wonder if those against medical privacy have any experience with the teen homeless population? Many of these kids are out of foster care, but just as many are from what society likes to call "good homes." Kicked out for a range of offenses, from being LGBT, having sex, getting pregnant, bad grades, smoking pot, drinking, talking back, etc. The parents dream up these stories to make themselves the victim, but many of these kids really are good kids that were going through normal human things and instead of support from mommy and daddy, they were given tough "love" and the "my way or the highway" speech and sent out on the streets. No intervention, and believe it or not, most of the time it's not treated as a crime for the parents to kick their kids out, even in my very blue state. It's despicable.


GuitarStv

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2021, 08:12:11 AM »
Worse yet, some of them go the bathroom at Target.

Are they known for leaving upper deckers?  If not, I somehow feel little reason for outrage/concern.

Bah, you're Canadian.  You don't appreciate Target and thus cannot appreciate the vital gender-normative role its bathrooms play in 'Murican society.

I feel the need to remind everyone that Jordan Peterson is, in fact, Canadian.

He's on the list.
- Jordan Peterson
- Ted Cruz
- Nickelback
- Celine Dion

Sorry world!  Our bad.

Ockhamist

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2021, 08:15:57 AM »
Worse yet, some of them go the bathroom at Target.

Are they known for leaving upper deckers?  If not, I somehow feel little reason for outrage/concern.

Bah, you're Canadian.  You don't appreciate Target and thus cannot appreciate the vital gender-normative role its bathrooms play in 'Murican society.

I feel the need to remind everyone that Jordan Peterson is, in fact, Canadian.

Yeah, but he's from Alberta, so, you know ... 

Morning Glory

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #70 on: April 07, 2021, 08:44:14 AM »
God, I tried to not to get invested in this thread before, but you know how that goes...

I've been married to a trans person for almost 20 years, and with her for longer. We've raised two wonderful, well adjusted children together. The ignorance some people have about trans people, particularly hurtful, hateful parents, is disgusting. Further, the idea of "protecting girls," whether it's from trans people in bathrooms (I know the above comment was sarcastic and not serious) or from themselves because they are questioning their own gender identity is infuriating to me as a woman. Nine times out of ten people want to protect women and girls from themselves, as though we don't deserve any autonomy. No one here has specifically singled out boys when it comes to medical privacy. Ask yourself why, hmm?

Kids NEED privacy from their parents, even if they have a healthy relationship with their parents. Fuck all, were none of you ever kids? Do you not remember the anxiety for what is now stupid little things that you felt? Now imagine that magnified if you have less than understanding parents, religious zealot parents, abusive parents, or authoritarian parents. Teachers, scout leaders, and yes -- MEDICAL DOCTORS -- are sometimes the only point of intervention and safety for oh so many kids.

So a couple of girls take some hormone arrestors that they later regret, as allegedly put forth by an author with an agenda. You know what they and their parents would likely regret more? If those kids had killed themselves or gotten on opiates in an effort to alleviate whatever they were going through. Because that is likely the alternative of what happens. My partner volunteers with trans youth, many are homeless because those loving parents that deserved to know all about their kid's medical care kicked them out on the street. Some of these kids are only 13 or 14 years old. A LOT of them turn to prostitution to get by, and most eventually end up raped, beaten, and addicted to drugs. And those are the lucky ones.

Let us use our brains for a moment. Let's suppose that there is a more than negligible amount of teen girls transitioning to male then later regretting it. Why is this? It's not because they got to talk to their doctor in private (spoiler, hormones can be found online without a doc, a committed kid will get them one way or another). No, it's because they live in a society where they feel they have no power, and for some reason having a penis makes them think they will have power, autonomy, and happiness. Why is that, I wonder? But yeah, let's attack the idea of medical privacy instead of looking at what we are really doing, as a society, to our kids.

I wonder if those against medical privacy have any experience with the teen homeless population? Many of these kids are out of foster care, but just as many are from what society likes to call "good homes." Kicked out for a range of offenses, from being LGBT, having sex, getting pregnant, bad grades, smoking pot, drinking, talking back, etc. The parents dream up these stories to make themselves the victim, but many of these kids really are good kids that were going through normal human things and instead of support from mommy and daddy, they were given tough "love" and the "my way or the highway" speech and sent out on the streets. No intervention, and believe it or not, most of the time it's not treated as a crime for the parents to kick their kids out, even in my very blue state. It's despicable.

+1,000,000

Malcat

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #71 on: April 07, 2021, 10:12:44 AM »
God, I tried to not to get invested in this thread before, but you know how that goes...

I've been married to a trans person for almost 20 years, and with her for longer. We've raised two wonderful, well adjusted children together. The ignorance some people have about trans people, particularly hurtful, hateful parents, is disgusting. Further, the idea of "protecting girls," whether it's from trans people in bathrooms (I know the above comment was sarcastic and not serious) or from themselves because they are questioning their own gender identity is infuriating to me as a woman. Nine times out of ten people want to protect women and girls from themselves, as though we don't deserve any autonomy. No one here has specifically singled out boys when it comes to medical privacy. Ask yourself why, hmm?

Kids NEED privacy from their parents, even if they have a healthy relationship with their parents. Fuck all, were none of you ever kids? Do you not remember the anxiety for what is now stupid little things that you felt? Now imagine that magnified if you have less than understanding parents, religious zealot parents, abusive parents, or authoritarian parents. Teachers, scout leaders, and yes -- MEDICAL DOCTORS -- are sometimes the only point of intervention and safety for oh so many kids.

So a couple of girls take some hormone arrestors that they later regret, as allegedly put forth by an author with an agenda. You know what they and their parents would likely regret more? If those kids had killed themselves or gotten on opiates in an effort to alleviate whatever they were going through. Because that is likely the alternative of what happens. My partner volunteers with trans youth, many are homeless because those loving parents that deserved to know all about their kid's medical care kicked them out on the street. Some of these kids are only 13 or 14 years old. A LOT of them turn to prostitution to get by, and most eventually end up raped, beaten, and addicted to drugs. And those are the lucky ones.

Let us use our brains for a moment. Let's suppose that there is a more than negligible amount of teen girls transitioning to male then later regretting it. Why is this? It's not because they got to talk to their doctor in private (spoiler, hormones can be found online without a doc, a committed kid will get them one way or another). No, it's because they live in a society where they feel they have no power, and for some reason having a penis makes them think they will have power, autonomy, and happiness. Why is that, I wonder? But yeah, let's attack the idea of medical privacy instead of looking at what we are really doing, as a society, to our kids.

I wonder if those against medical privacy have any experience with the teen homeless population? Many of these kids are out of foster care, but just as many are from what society likes to call "good homes." Kicked out for a range of offenses, from being LGBT, having sex, getting pregnant, bad grades, smoking pot, drinking, talking back, etc. The parents dream up these stories to make themselves the victim, but many of these kids really are good kids that were going through normal human things and instead of support from mommy and daddy, they were given tough "love" and the "my way or the highway" speech and sent out on the streets. No intervention, and believe it or not, most of the time it's not treated as a crime for the parents to kick their kids out, even in my very blue state. It's despicable.

Slow clap

CodingHare

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #72 on: April 07, 2021, 01:00:33 PM »
God, I tried to not to get invested in this thread before, but you know how that goes...

I've been married to a trans person for almost 20 years, and with her for longer. We've raised two wonderful, well adjusted children together. The ignorance some people have about trans people, particularly hurtful, hateful parents, is disgusting. Further, the idea of "protecting girls," whether it's from trans people in bathrooms (I know the above comment was sarcastic and not serious) or from themselves because they are questioning their own gender identity is infuriating to me as a woman. Nine times out of ten people want to protect women and girls from themselves, as though we don't deserve any autonomy. No one here has specifically singled out boys when it comes to medical privacy. Ask yourself why, hmm?

Kids NEED privacy from their parents, even if they have a healthy relationship with their parents. Fuck all, were none of you ever kids? Do you not remember the anxiety for what is now stupid little things that you felt? Now imagine that magnified if you have less than understanding parents, religious zealot parents, abusive parents, or authoritarian parents. Teachers, scout leaders, and yes -- MEDICAL DOCTORS -- are sometimes the only point of intervention and safety for oh so many kids.

So a couple of girls take some hormone arrestors that they later regret, as allegedly put forth by an author with an agenda. You know what they and their parents would likely regret more? If those kids had killed themselves or gotten on opiates in an effort to alleviate whatever they were going through. Because that is likely the alternative of what happens. My partner volunteers with trans youth, many are homeless because those loving parents that deserved to know all about their kid's medical care kicked them out on the street. Some of these kids are only 13 or 14 years old. A LOT of them turn to prostitution to get by, and most eventually end up raped, beaten, and addicted to drugs. And those are the lucky ones.

Let us use our brains for a moment. Let's suppose that there is a more than negligible amount of teen girls transitioning to male then later regretting it. Why is this? It's not because they got to talk to their doctor in private (spoiler, hormones can be found online without a doc, a committed kid will get them one way or another). No, it's because they live in a society where they feel they have no power, and for some reason having a penis makes them think they will have power, autonomy, and happiness. Why is that, I wonder? But yeah, let's attack the idea of medical privacy instead of looking at what we are really doing, as a society, to our kids.

I wonder if those against medical privacy have any experience with the teen homeless population? Many of these kids are out of foster care, but just as many are from what society likes to call "good homes." Kicked out for a range of offenses, from being LGBT, having sex, getting pregnant, bad grades, smoking pot, drinking, talking back, etc. The parents dream up these stories to make themselves the victim, but many of these kids really are good kids that were going through normal human things and instead of support from mommy and daddy, they were given tough "love" and the "my way or the highway" speech and sent out on the streets. No intervention, and believe it or not, most of the time it's not treated as a crime for the parents to kick their kids out, even in my very blue state. It's despicable.

Said so well!

Kris

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #73 on: April 07, 2021, 04:34:34 PM »
God, I tried to not to get invested in this thread before, but you know how that goes...

I've been married to a trans person for almost 20 years, and with her for longer. We've raised two wonderful, well adjusted children together. The ignorance some people have about trans people, particularly hurtful, hateful parents, is disgusting. Further, the idea of "protecting girls," whether it's from trans people in bathrooms (I know the above comment was sarcastic and not serious) or from themselves because they are questioning their own gender identity is infuriating to me as a woman. Nine times out of ten people want to protect women and girls from themselves, as though we don't deserve any autonomy. No one here has specifically singled out boys when it comes to medical privacy. Ask yourself why, hmm?

Kids NEED privacy from their parents, even if they have a healthy relationship with their parents. Fuck all, were none of you ever kids? Do you not remember the anxiety for what is now stupid little things that you felt? Now imagine that magnified if you have less than understanding parents, religious zealot parents, abusive parents, or authoritarian parents. Teachers, scout leaders, and yes -- MEDICAL DOCTORS -- are sometimes the only point of intervention and safety for oh so many kids.

So a couple of girls take some hormone arrestors that they later regret, as allegedly put forth by an author with an agenda. You know what they and their parents would likely regret more? If those kids had killed themselves or gotten on opiates in an effort to alleviate whatever they were going through. Because that is likely the alternative of what happens. My partner volunteers with trans youth, many are homeless because those loving parents that deserved to know all about their kid's medical care kicked them out on the street. Some of these kids are only 13 or 14 years old. A LOT of them turn to prostitution to get by, and most eventually end up raped, beaten, and addicted to drugs. And those are the lucky ones.

Let us use our brains for a moment. Let's suppose that there is a more than negligible amount of teen girls transitioning to male then later regretting it. Why is this? It's not because they got to talk to their doctor in private (spoiler, hormones can be found online without a doc, a committed kid will get them one way or another). No, it's because they live in a society where they feel they have no power, and for some reason having a penis makes them think they will have power, autonomy, and happiness. Why is that, I wonder? But yeah, let's attack the idea of medical privacy instead of looking at what we are really doing, as a society, to our kids.

I wonder if those against medical privacy have any experience with the teen homeless population? Many of these kids are out of foster care, but just as many are from what society likes to call "good homes." Kicked out for a range of offenses, from being LGBT, having sex, getting pregnant, bad grades, smoking pot, drinking, talking back, etc. The parents dream up these stories to make themselves the victim, but many of these kids really are good kids that were going through normal human things and instead of support from mommy and daddy, they were given tough "love" and the "my way or the highway" speech and sent out on the streets. No intervention, and believe it or not, most of the time it's not treated as a crime for the parents to kick their kids out, even in my very blue state. It's despicable.

I could not love this post more.

Abe

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #74 on: April 07, 2021, 08:47:46 PM »
I guess it's not surprising that busy-bodies would be against privacy for others. The whole post-hormone-taking regret thing seems like anecdata rather than real data. We'd need something stronger to suggest why teenagers shouldn't have an automatic right to privacy.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 08:50:42 PM by Abe »

jeninco

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #75 on: April 07, 2021, 09:48:34 PM »
I guess it's not surprising that busy-bodies would be against privacy for others. The whole post-hormone-taking regret thing seems like anecdata rather than real data. We'd need something stronger to suggest why teenagers shouldn't have an automatic right to privacy.

Also, since it's easy to argue that every (or nearly every) teenager should have an opportunity to have a private conversation with a doctor, even in the unlikely event that small numbers of transitioning kids change their minds later, is that worth limiting something important for most everyone?

OtherJen

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #76 on: April 08, 2021, 08:59:58 AM »
Personally, I find this extremely disturbing:
New NC bill would require schools to tell parents if a child 'exhibits gender nonconformity' (The Hill)

Quote
Additionally, government and school employees, among other professionals, are mandated to report to a child's parents in writing if their child is exhibiting any symptoms of gender dysphoria or gender nonconformity.

Botany Bae

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #77 on: April 08, 2021, 09:25:06 AM »
Personally, I find this extremely disturbing:
New NC bill would require schools to tell parents if a child 'exhibits gender nonconformity' (The Hill)

Quote
Additionally, government and school employees, among other professionals, are mandated to report to a child's parents in writing if their child is exhibiting any symptoms of gender dysphoria or gender nonconformity.

"Parents would also be allowed to withhold mental health services and other treatments and activities that “are designed and intended to form their child's conceptions of sex and gender or to treat gender dysphoria or gender nonconformity.”

The bill also legalizes therapies and counseling based on “conscience or religious belief.”"

This makes it 10 times more dangerous. Not only are parents given the right to know everything, they are also given the right to completely and utterly deny treatment. Think of how messed up this is -- "We are going to draft a law that forces us to acknowledge that your child may have some issues they are working through, but in the same law we are providing you, the responsible party that decided to have a child and take on all that child rearing entails, the right to completely ignore your responsibility of care. Why? Because children = property in our great state. And let's put in a sprinkle of God, too, cuz why not?"

These chodes give their huntin' hounds more rights than their own offspring. May they all rot in this life and the next.

Further, what is gender conforming behavior? How do we define it? I wear pants, shun makeup, and use power tools, as a female is that non-conforming? My son's favorite color is pink, does he need to be reprogrammed?

Tigerpine

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #78 on: April 08, 2021, 09:29:59 AM »
My son's favorite color is pink, does he need to be reprogrammed?
Gender association with the color pink is actually quite interesting.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/12/health/colorscope-pink-boy-girl-gender/index.html

neophyte

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #79 on: April 08, 2021, 10:23:41 AM »
My mother made it very clear that I was not to recieve the HPV vaccine while on my parent's insurance. Because sex. I was supposed to be a virgin and marry a virgin.  That was the only acceptable answer and if I wanted them to help support me through college I would follow the rules. I'm glad I was able to talk my doctor into giving it to me when I was 29 or 30 even though it wasn't FDA approved for people over 26 at that point.

OtherJen

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #80 on: April 08, 2021, 01:07:07 PM »
Personally, I find this extremely disturbing:
New NC bill would require schools to tell parents if a child 'exhibits gender nonconformity' (The Hill)

Quote
Additionally, government and school employees, among other professionals, are mandated to report to a child's parents in writing if their child is exhibiting any symptoms of gender dysphoria or gender nonconformity.

"Parents would also be allowed to withhold mental health services and other treatments and activities that “are designed and intended to form their child's conceptions of sex and gender or to treat gender dysphoria or gender nonconformity.”

The bill also legalizes therapies and counseling based on “conscience or religious belief.”"

This makes it 10 times more dangerous. Not only are parents given the right to know everything, they are also given the right to completely and utterly deny treatment. Think of how messed up this is -- "We are going to draft a law that forces us to acknowledge that your child may have some issues they are working through, but in the same law we are providing you, the responsible party that decided to have a child and take on all that child rearing entails, the right to completely ignore your responsibility of care. Why? Because children = property in our great state. And let's put in a sprinkle of God, too, cuz why not?"

These chodes give their huntin' hounds more rights than their own offspring. May they all rot in this life and the next.

Further, what is gender conforming behavior? How do we define it? I wear pants, shun makeup, and use power tools, as a female is that non-conforming? My son's favorite color is pink, does he need to be reprogrammed?

If I were an LGBTQ teen in that state who had any concerns whatsoever that my parents would be less than understanding of my situation, I would probably beg any out-of-state relative I could remotely tolerate to let me live with them until I was 18. This law will cause child abuse to skyrocket. It's horrifying.

I'm an atheist, in no small part because of having been raised with too much bullshit like this, but sometimes I do wish that Jesus was real and would, in fact, meet these asshats at the pearly gates to inform them that he has no fucking clue who they are, because they deliberately did the opposite of feed the hungry, tend the sick, and protect the helpless during their lives. They used their given and entrusted power to hurt people in Jesus's name. If Jesus existed, I doubt he'd appreciate that.

iris lily

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #81 on: April 09, 2021, 12:19:00 PM »


...Further, what is gender conforming behavior? How do we define it? I wear pants, shun makeup, and use power tools, as a female is that non-conforming? My son's favorite color is pink, does he need to be reprogrammed?

Exactly.

I would want my son, we’re he like yours, to recognize his color preference  as an expression of his individual uniqueness. I would not want him to associate that preference with being of the opposite sex. Also I would want him to enjoy his pink phase and be open to subsequent phases of enjoying yellow, or purple, or gold and silver. Or maybe enjoying pink forever as his favorite color.




Botany Bae

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #82 on: April 09, 2021, 01:01:54 PM »


...Further, what is gender conforming behavior? How do we define it? I wear pants, shun makeup, and use power tools, as a female is that non-conforming? My son's favorite color is pink, does he need to be reprogrammed?

Exactly.

I would want my son, we’re he like yours, to recognize his color preference  as an expression of his individual uniqueness. I would not want him to associate that preference with being of the opposite sex. Also I would want him to enjoy his pink phase and be open to subsequent phases of enjoying yellow, or purple, or gold and silver. Or maybe enjoying pink forever as his favorite color.

He's an adult and pink is still his favorite and most worn color. He also loves florals - roses mainly. His students love his colorful wardrobe, but they are young enough that societal gender norms are still a bit fluid with them. :)

The phases thing did prick me, though, whether intended or not. You see, I've raised my kids to be successful, well adjusted, and informed adults. I know how phases work and I know where boundaries need to lie. I also never dismissed anything that mattered to my children as "just a phase." It may have been, but it was important and sometimes life altering to them at the time. I have experience in education and outreach, as well as a degree in biology. I have likely been a mandated reporter and a confidant for more adolescents than many people have talked to in their life. I have worked through the entire process of therapy and transitioning at my spouse's side. Do you (general you) know what the only successful medical cure for gender dysphoria is? It's transitioning. Gender dysphoria therapy is to help address the years of trauma, abuse, PTSD, depression, and self harming behavior that is a direct result of parental and societal pressures on those that don't fit into the peak of the bell curve. These parents want to keep their kids out of traditional therapy not because they believe that therapy will make their kid trans, gay, or whatever, but because deep down inside they fear that it may force them to come to terms with the fact that they aren't a very good person.

I didn't read a book. I lived through all of this, I did the hard work, and I cried the tears of both heartache and joy. I've held the hand of a gender questioning kid that was kicked out by their parents -- the dad a community leader in their church -- while we waited for the the nurse to bring the rape kit. I held the hand of a child whose grandparent shaved their long hair off with a straight razor, cutting up their scalp, because it made them a "pansy."

If gender questioning is just a phase, then it's a phase that needs a safe space, away from sometimes less than understanding parents, to be worked through. I agree that therapy is often necessary. Not because the child is questioning their gender, but because of the dysfunctional family setting that makes gender questions a problem.

The thing is, that there are plenty of kids that questioned their gender and even transitioned that aren't making the news or having books written about them. They had loving, supportive families and were able to work through these complicated feelings as easily as most of us navigate gender normative puberty. They grew into well adjusted adults because they had a support network, not because someone tried to stop them "for their own good" from exploring their gender or sexuality. 



jeninco

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #83 on: April 11, 2021, 03:41:46 PM »
^
 |
I (heart) this message from @Botany Bae , and wish you and your family all the love in the world!

I'm a high school volunteer tutor (among other things), and my kids are almost both out of HS (at 17 and 20), but I'm intending to keep volunteering, and I think there's a better than even chance we're going to wind up with a temporary or permanent foster kid who's been kicked out by their parents (courtesy of counselors who know us), even here in super-liberal Hippistan.

Botany Bae

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #84 on: April 11, 2021, 06:40:22 PM »
^
 |
I (heart) this message from @Botany Bae , and wish you and your family all the love in the world!

I'm a high school volunteer tutor (among other things), and my kids are almost both out of HS (at 17 and 20), but I'm intending to keep volunteering, and I think there's a better than even chance we're going to wind up with a temporary or permanent foster kid who's been kicked out by their parents (courtesy of counselors who know us), even here in super-liberal Hippistan.

Thank you for your well wishes :)

Thank you for being willing to step up for that kid! Something happened similar to that in my family. My dad was your typical well spoken, congenial southern gentleman. If he were alive in 2016, he would have voted Trump because he had begun his trip down the FOX rabbit hole. He was not a supporter of gay marriage rights, but he wasn't hateful and he kept any moral judgments he had to himself. What he was, though, was a supporter of family -- which came first and foremost over everything else. When my little sis was in high school one of her friends came out, and was promptly kicked out of his home. My dad was aghast that someone would cut family ties over something as trivial as sexual orientation. He took the boy in and made him part of our family. It was a huge deal at the time, as I guess the kid's parents tried to intervene because they had it in their head that the kid would "turn straight" if he saw how tough it was to be on the street. My father was a large and persuasive man, gifted with a slow molasses drawl, a huge vocabulary, and the belief that when all else fails it's okay for might to make right. My sis and the kid (now in his 30s and doing quite well) are still best friends, and all in all a painful adolescence seems to have had a happy ending.

Just Joe

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #85 on: April 12, 2021, 02:59:17 PM »
Personally, I find this extremely disturbing:
New NC bill would require schools to tell parents if a child 'exhibits gender nonconformity' (The Hill)

Quote
Additionally, government and school employees, among other professionals, are mandated to report to a child's parents in writing if their child is exhibiting any symptoms of gender dysphoria or gender nonconformity.

Isn't it great that all the GOP has to contribute lately is anti-LGBTQ+ legislation. My own state likes to do important things like re-affirm the bible is the state book and chase other Christian first topics.

Good grief the GOP is useless!

OtherJen

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #86 on: April 12, 2021, 05:15:02 PM »
Personally, I find this extremely disturbing:
New NC bill would require schools to tell parents if a child 'exhibits gender nonconformity' (The Hill)

Quote
Additionally, government and school employees, among other professionals, are mandated to report to a child's parents in writing if their child is exhibiting any symptoms of gender dysphoria or gender nonconformity.

Isn't it great that all the GOP has to contribute lately is anti-LGBTQ+ legislation. My own state likes to do important things like re-affirm the bible is the state book and chase other Christian first topics.

Good grief the GOP is useless!

Yep. Here in Michigan, we're the US COVID hotspot. Our GOP legislature stripped the Democrat governor of her powers to shut things down before the hospital systems collapse. They're doing fuck-all in terms of public health measures. Instead, they're trying to overturn the expanded voter access that we the people voted in by a large margin in 2018 as an amendment to the state constitution. It won't surprise me at all if their next measure is to hurt LGBTQ people. Republican leaders are terrible people. I can't tell if the rank and file voters are just as bad or clueless.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 05:16:45 PM by OtherJen »

GuitarStv

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Re: Does this seem a bit wack? Medical privacy for children from parents?
« Reply #87 on: April 13, 2021, 08:19:49 AM »
Personally, I find this extremely disturbing:
New NC bill would require schools to tell parents if a child 'exhibits gender nonconformity' (The Hill)

Quote
Additionally, government and school employees, among other professionals, are mandated to report to a child's parents in writing if their child is exhibiting any symptoms of gender dysphoria or gender nonconformity.

Isn't it great that all the GOP has to contribute lately is anti-LGBTQ+ legislation. My own state likes to do important things like re-affirm the bible is the state book and chase other Christian first topics.

Good grief the GOP is useless!

Yep. Here in Michigan, we're the US COVID hotspot. Our GOP legislature stripped the Democrat governor of her powers to shut things down before the hospital systems collapse. They're doing fuck-all in terms of public health measures. Instead, they're trying to overturn the expanded voter access that we the people voted in by a large margin in 2018 as an amendment to the state constitution. It won't surprise me at all if their next measure is to hurt LGBTQ people. Republican leaders are terrible people. I can't tell if the rank and file voters are just as bad or clueless.

Rank and file Republicans overwhelmingly support their leaders.  That should give you some hints.