Author Topic: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?  (Read 110345 times)

GrayGhost

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 374
  • Location: USA
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #750 on: February 04, 2018, 10:26:32 AM »
Surely employers have the right to fire employees for expressing themselves in undesired ways, especially during work hours. And there also exists the right to call people mean things, even if you are the commander in chief. Maybe it's not as polished or "dignified" as something past Presidents may have said, but it rather does feed into the support of patriotism. "Yeah, you have the right to kneel for the anthem, but if you do, you're a son of a bitch."

Fireball

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 223
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #751 on: February 04, 2018, 10:45:13 AM »
You're arguing two different things. Stating that the POTUS didn't support fining them, and then stating it's OK if he supports firing them is counterintuitive. They're both effectively the same thing. They're either both OK or they're both not OK.

Employers can absolutely fire employees for their actions while on the job. However, the real crux of the argument is whether it's OK for the POTUS to urge employers to take an action against their employees for doing something he doesn't like. Some people think a POTUS should try to help the citizenry find common ground on tough issues, not encourage divisiveness.  Some people think they should fire those sons of bitches. Everyone should do some soul searching and decide which is better for the future of our nation.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 10:53:50 AM by Fireball »

YttriumNitrate

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
  • Location: Northwest Indiana
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #752 on: February 04, 2018, 10:49:26 AM »
Interestingly, my take is that people would be far more sympathetic to protesting the actual national anthem rather than using the national anthem to protest something else. If the whole thing was actually sung at sporting events, it wouldn't take long for the singing to stop.

Verse 3:
Quote
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

GrayGhost

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 374
  • Location: USA
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #753 on: February 04, 2018, 10:56:37 AM »
You're arguing two different things. Stating that the POTUS didn't support fining them, and then stating it's OK if he supports firing them is counterintuitive. They're both effectively the same thing. They're either both OK or they're both not OK.

There is no contradiction between supporting free speech and also supporting the right of people and businesses to make hiring, firing, buying and selling decisions based on that speech. For example, I absolutely have the right to go for a walk with a swastika flag and sieg heil everyone I come across, and I would have no grounds for a lawsuit if my employer decided to fire me because of it.

This story shows the difference from roughly that perspective. TL;DR: a lawyer by day had a neo Nazi record label by night, and when people found out about it, he faced neither fine nor imprisonment, however his employer was no longer interested in keeping him on the payroll. Free expression was respected, as was freedom of association.

As for the full lyrics of the national anthem, agreed, they are rather ugly. That is why we only sing the decent parts.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 10:59:03 AM by GrayGhost »

Fireball

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 223
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #754 on: February 04, 2018, 11:13:46 AM »
You're arguing two different things. Stating that the POTUS didn't support fining them, and then stating it's OK if he supports firing them is counterintuitive. They're both effectively the same thing. They're either both OK or they're both not OK.

There is no contradiction between supporting free speech and also supporting the right of people and businesses to make hiring, firing, buying and selling decisions based on that speech.

To me, the contradiction was in your statement that the President didn't support fining the players, but did support firing them. If you meant that the Gov't would be the entity fining them instead of the NFL, I can see your argument more clearly.

GrayGhost

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 374
  • Location: USA
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #755 on: February 04, 2018, 11:18:33 AM »
TIL that the NFL can fine its members.

I guess as long as you choose to associate with the NFL you agree to play by their rules, and if you feel you've been treated unfairly, that's a matter for arbitration or civil court.

Like I mentioned earlier, I'm not particularly upset by the kneeling protests, as they aren't very disrespectful and they do draw attention to a very serious issue. If players were to give the finger to the flag during the anthem though, I would definitely want to see them sanctioned by their employer, up to the point of termination.

Fireball

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 223
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #756 on: February 04, 2018, 11:39:10 AM »
You're right. Regardless of whether or not people are being oppressed or treated unfairly in this country, we've gotta make sure no one disrespects that flag. It's too important.

bacchi

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3187
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #757 on: February 04, 2018, 01:54:10 PM »
Interestingly, my take is that people would be far more sympathetic to protesting the actual national anthem rather than using the national anthem to protest something else. If the whole thing was actually sung at sporting events, it wouldn't take long for the singing to stop.

Verse 3:
Quote
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

Guthrie's "This Land is Your Land" is similar. The lyrics have 2 verses that are rarely sang at events.

    In the squares of the city, In the shadow of a steeple;
    By the relief office, I'd seen my people.
    As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking,
    Is this land made for you and me?

GrayGhost

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 374
  • Location: USA
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #758 on: February 04, 2018, 03:38:35 PM »
You're right. Regardless of whether or not people are being oppressed or treated unfairly in this country, we've gotta make sure no one disrespects that flag. It's too important.

But, I never said that the NFL players don't have the right to free expression or that their right to free expression takes a back seat to anything. They absolutely do have the right to kneel during the anthem to protest. It doesn't offend me and if anything, I am somewhat sympathetic to their cause.

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1770
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #759 on: February 04, 2018, 03:40:57 PM »
You're right. Regardless of whether or not people are being oppressed or treated unfairly in this country, we've gotta make sure no one disrespects that flag. It's too important.

Sadly the flag is disrespected everyday. It's against the flag code to fly it horizontally, yet it happens frequently at sporting events. It's also against flag code to don garments with the flag symbolized on them, yet we see that everyday. Heck it was a common theme at Trump rallies. Kneeling itself is not against flag code.

But back to the original comment. It really wasn't a "zinger" unless you are in agreement that black athletes are "sons of bitches that should be fired." You can disagree with their kneeling while also not supporting Trump's stance. Forced patriotism isn't patriotism. It's totalitarianism.

GrayGhost

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 374
  • Location: USA
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #760 on: February 04, 2018, 03:53:46 PM »
There are plenty of black athletes and others who don't kneel, so to give black athletes in general the credit or blame for kneeling is a mistake. I also have to emphasize that I don't want to criminally or civilly sanction those who disrespect the flag or anthem, I simply hold that myself and others have the right to make our opinions based on how others choose to express themselves, and in turn express ourselves as we see fit, and boycott persons and organizations to our hearts' content. So if you want to call out and boycott a business that violates the flag code, that's totally fine.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 03:55:18 PM by GrayGhost »

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7503
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #761 on: February 04, 2018, 04:35:27 PM »
The whole point of kneeling is that is respectful.  You kneel before things you revere.

They're not throwing rotten fruit at it.

GrayGhost

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 374
  • Location: USA
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #762 on: February 04, 2018, 07:27:57 PM »
I think that's a little misleading... in the US, the conventional way to show respect to the flag is to stand with your hand over your heart. The players who are kneeling are doing so specifically to use the national anthem as a way to spread awareness about a political issue, with respect as a distant secondary concern. That this is a political statement is the least controversial aspect of this whole thing.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 07:59:38 PM by GrayGhost »

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7503
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #763 on: February 04, 2018, 09:40:31 PM »
I think that's a little misleading... in the US, the conventional way to show respect to the flag is to stand with your hand over your heart.

Traditionally, sure.  And soldiers salute.  But the whole kneeling thing started when a veteran told Kap that staying seated during the anthem was disrespectful, and that soldiers sometimes kneel before the flag as a sign of respect in times of mourning, like at the funeral of a fallen comrade.  He jumped on the idea, and now they kneel instead of remaining seated.  Out of respect and in mourning, just like the military does.  Are they sons of bitches too?

They're not trying to be disrespectful of the flag.  I'm not surprised that Trump tries to spin it that way, but that is very clearly not the intent.  Trump will never address the underlying protest, which is that unarmed black people are routinely murdered by American law enforcement and then face no consequences for it.  From that perspective, cops who murder are barely a step above klansmen who used to lynch.  Both were considered socially acceptable at the time.  Both are probably worthy reasons to respectfully mourn the flag.

GrayGhost

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 374
  • Location: USA
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #764 on: February 04, 2018, 10:12:09 PM »
Soldiers kneel to mourn fallen comrades, yes. Kaepernick does it to make a political statement. Clearly, many of us believe that there are be better times to make political statements than during the national anthem.

Not to mention that when the whole controversy began, Kaepernick said this...

Quote
I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color.

So initially, it was very clearly an attempt to show anger towards the flag and the anthem; respect was not a concern at all. A polishing of the gesture came a bit later. Regardless, making a political statement during the national anthem is more divisive than saying:

Quote
Preston's reverence for those who have served our Nation reminds us why we salute our flag, why we put our hands on our hearts for the pledge of allegiance, and why we proudly stand for the national anthem.

One can muster up offense at that if one wishes to. I'll carry on thinking that it was a well thought out and well executed bit of eloquence, or, in shorthand, a zinger.

To address the issue further, first, let me emphasize that I absolutely think there are problems with police brutality, and the worst police brutality often seems to target racial minorities. With that said, even as a minority, I can't bring myself to support BLM, at least not without a great deal of nuancing. The death of Trayvon Martin was one thing, the death of Tamir Rice was another. The death of Walter Scott was shocking and the death of Philandro Castile and the reaction to it were disgusting, and probably the biggest reasons why I won't join the NRA, even though it did result in a fair trial. It's a complicated issue and while I don't particularly mind the anthem protests, I can see the other side and I won't blame anyone for disagreeing with me.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 10:17:58 PM by GrayGhost »

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7503
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #765 on: February 04, 2018, 10:27:54 PM »
Soldiers kneel to mourn fallen comrades, yes. Kaepernick does it to make a political statement.

Um, yea, that's kind of the point.  He's making a statement about fallen comrades.  Young black people shot and killed while minding their own business, while their killers go free.  It's the kind of thing that sort of begs a statement to be made.

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1770
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #766 on: February 05, 2018, 05:27:38 AM »
Soldiers kneel to mourn fallen comrades, yes. Kaepernick does it to make a political statement. Clearly, many of us believe that there are be better times to make political statements than during the national anthem.

Not to mention that when the whole controversy began, Kaepernick said this...

Quote
I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color.

So initially, it was very clearly an attempt to show anger towards the flag and the anthem; respect was not a concern at all.

So the flag and/or anthem was the oppressor? Go back and read the Jackie Robinson quote. Being forced to stand and honor a flag that is supposed to represent equality, among many other things, while being the constant victim of inequality for many many years is not honor. The whole ideal of kneeling was out of respect for service members, for those affected by inexcusable police brutality, continued inequality etc. Reminds me of your earlier post where you tried to play the "patriotism" card. Now it's disrespectful to be be respectful of others? Do you even know what you are arguing? 

Quote
I'll carry on thinking that it was a well thought out and well executed bit of eloquence, or, in shorthand, a zinger.
Quote
It's a complicated issue and while I don't particularly mind the anthem protests, I can see the other side and I won't blame anyone for disagreeing with me.

So which is it? Do you "not mind the protest," or do you think these "sons of bitches should be fired" for peacefully protesting? 

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3402
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #767 on: February 05, 2018, 07:13:42 AM »
From The Atlantic today.

Republicans and independents take note.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/boycott-the-gop/550907/

DarkandStormy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1144
  • Age: 29
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #768 on: February 05, 2018, 07:46:06 AM »
http://www.fox32chicago.com/news/local/nazi-will-be-republican-candidate-for-congress-in-illinois-third-district

Quote
An actual Nazi is going to be the Republican candidate for Congress in a Chicago suburb.

The Chicago Sun-Times reports that white supremacist Arthur Jones is the only Republican on the ballot for the primary in Illinois' third congressional district, which covers part of Cook County. The deadline for other candidates to file passed weeks ago.

This gives Republican voters in this district the choice between voting for Democrat incumbent Rep. Dan Lipinski, or voting for Jones, a Neo-Nazi who calls the Holocaust a "racket" and the "biggest blackest lie in history."

They've gone back to the future...

better late

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 236
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #769 on: February 05, 2018, 08:17:57 AM »
From The Atlantic today.

Republicans and independents take note.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/boycott-the-gop/550907/

Thank you for sharing this.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7503
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #770 on: February 05, 2018, 08:26:27 AM »
http://www.fox32chicago.com/news/local/nazi-will-be-republican-candidate-for-congress-in-illinois-third-district

Quote
An actual Nazi is going to be the Republican candidate for Congress in a Chicago suburb.

The Chicago Sun-Times reports that white supremacist Arthur Jones is the only Republican on the ballot for the primary in Illinois' third congressional district, which covers part of Cook County. The deadline for other candidates to file passed weeks ago.

This gives Republican voters in this district the choice between voting for Democrat incumbent Rep. Dan Lipinski, or voting for Jones, a Neo-Nazi who calls the Holocaust a "racket" and the "biggest blackest lie in history."

They've gone back to the future...

I agree that the optics are hilariously bad, when republicans can't vote for anyone in their party who is not a Nazi, but let's not oversell the conclusions here.  If it's a solidly blue district, there might not even be a functioning republican party office to advance a more reputable candidate.  In those cases, fringe candidates sometimes sneak through just because they are the only people who care enough to run.

We've seen the same thing with radical left candidates in solidly red districts, too. They know they will lose, and only run to publicize their ideas.  Fortunately the idealistic socialists don't usually come with quite so much baggage as the Nazis do, so they only make the party look starry-eyed instead of hateful.

It's still funny.  Who knew that Mitch McConnell's biggest challenge as party leader would be stamping out the Nazis within?

protip for Mitch:  I think you might have missed one big one.

YttriumNitrate

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
  • Location: Northwest Indiana
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #771 on: February 05, 2018, 09:11:07 AM »
Luckily, Arthur Jones has absolutely no chance of winning. However, before we start trying to paint the wackos as representative of an entire party I would point out that 6 years ago Illinois' 2nd congressional district was won by a guy who was quite literally in a mental institution.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-room/Jesse-Jackson-Jr-Wins-Reelection--175717941.html
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 09:13:44 AM by YttriumNitrate »

Gondolin

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 535
  • Location: Northern VA
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #772 on: February 05, 2018, 09:14:24 AM »
Quote
This gives Republican voters in this district the choice between voting for Democrat incumbent Rep. Dan Lipinski, or voting for Jones, a Neo-Nazi who calls the Holocaust a "racket" and the "biggest blackest lie in history."

Lipinski ran unopposed in 2016 and took 64.6% of the vote in 2014. It's a solid blue district.

Just Joe

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2209
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #773 on: February 05, 2018, 09:24:11 AM »
I'm all for anything that peacefully teaches America to be smarter. Maybe people won't be so damn flippant about who they vote for. The past decade has certainly taught DW and I alot about the people we thought we knew best.
Many people who voted for Trump took that decision seriously.  I'm guessing about the same amount of people who took voting seriously voted for Trump as voted for Hillary.  The reason Trump won isn't that the Trump voters were flippant, it's that they weighted the pros and cons differently. 

I think if someone tried to make voters value voting more, it wouldn't dramatically change the results.  Democrats might be saying they need more intelligent/serious/etc. voters now, but Republicans were saying it during the Obama years.  To win you need them to value the same things the same way.

I'd argue that around here people voted on the age-old wedge issues. And Abortion. Gun-rights. Hillary's email. Negative campaigning against liberals. People wrapped up in Trump's "hot topics". That's who I mean when I say flippant about their vote. They aren't seeking truth. They are looking for easy reasons to vote GOP. It happens on both sides but I live in a very red state.

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1770
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #774 on: February 05, 2018, 09:27:15 AM »
I'm all for anything that peacefully teaches America to be smarter. Maybe people won't be so damn flippant about who they vote for. The past decade has certainly taught DW and I alot about the people we thought we knew best.
Many people who voted for Trump took that decision seriously.  I'm guessing about the same amount of people who took voting seriously voted for Trump as voted for Hillary.  The reason Trump won isn't that the Trump voters were flippant, it's that they weighted the pros and cons differently. 

I think if someone tried to make voters value voting more, it wouldn't dramatically change the results.  Democrats might be saying they need more intelligent/serious/etc. voters now, but Republicans were saying it during the Obama years.  To win you need them to value the same things the same way.

I'd argue that around here people voted on the age-old wedge issues. And Abortion. Gun-rights. Hillary's email. Negative campaigning against liberals. People wrapped up in Trump's "hot topics". That's who I mean when I say flippant about their vote. They aren't seeking truth. They are looking for easy reasons to vote GOP. It happens on both sides but I live in a very red state.

I believe the term for that is post-fact.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7503
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #775 on: February 05, 2018, 09:43:52 AM »
They aren't seeking truth. They are looking for easy reasons to vote GOP. It happens on both sides but I live in a very red state.

I believe the term for that is post-fact.

It's an alternative fact, which supports the "real" truth.  Like #releasethememo, it's "sweet revenge" if you're "alt-right".

Also, firing the FBI director for political reasons is actually "defending our institutions from political interference". 

Can we start chanting "lock him up" yet?

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12294
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #776 on: February 05, 2018, 10:00:28 AM »
They aren't seeking truth. They are looking for easy reasons to vote GOP. It happens on both sides but I live in a very red state.

I believe the term for that is post-fact.

It's an alternative fact, which supports the "real" truth.  Like #releasethememo, it's "sweet revenge" if you're "alt-right".

Also, firing the FBI director for political reasons is actually "defending our institutions from political interference". 

Can we start chanting "lock him up" yet?

Ironic that Flynn led the 'lock her up' chant at the 2016 RNC and has now pled guilty to lying to the FBI and could well be heading to jail himself.

Just Joe

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2209
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #777 on: February 05, 2018, 10:01:44 AM »
I've been mumbling that for sometime now... ;)

Apparently we have a checks and balances mechanism that moves very slowly.

I know the investigation has to get it right but this guy DJT seems like an acute risk to the rest of us.

Not that I'm very impressed with our VP either.

TheOldestYoungMan

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 749
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #778 on: February 05, 2018, 10:20:33 AM »
From The Atlantic today.

Republicans and independents take note.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/boycott-the-gop/550907/

Yup, and as soon as you realize the Democratic party isn't a "good universe" version of the GOP but rather a different side of the same corrupt, tribal, authoritarian coin, you can join the rest of us who "waste" our votes on third party candidates.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12294
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #779 on: February 05, 2018, 10:26:32 AM »
From The Atlantic today.

Republicans and independents take note.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/boycott-the-gop/550907/

Yup, and as soon as you realize the Democratic party isn't a "good universe" version of the GOP but rather a different side of the same corrupt, tribal, authoritarian coin, you can join the rest of us who "waste" our votes on third party candidates.

I get the impression you didn't read the article at all.

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3402
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #780 on: February 05, 2018, 12:33:53 PM »
From The Atlantic today.

Republicans and independents take note.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/boycott-the-gop/550907/

Yup, and as soon as you realize the Democratic party isn't a "good universe" version of the GOP but rather a different side of the same corrupt, tribal, authoritarian coin, you can join the rest of us who "waste" our votes on third party candidates.

I get the impression you didn't read the article at all.

Yeah, I think that's fairly obvious.

e34bb098

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 83
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #781 on: February 05, 2018, 12:37:34 PM »
From The Atlantic today.

Republicans and independents take note.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/boycott-the-gop/550907/

That's pretty sobering.  I've followed Wittes for a while, and not only is he no bleeding heart, he's about as studiously neutral as possible while still having opinions on things.  If he thinks it's gotten bad enough to take a side, then that is a canary in a coal mine.

TheOldestYoungMan

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 749
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #782 on: February 05, 2018, 02:59:33 PM »
From The Atlantic today.

Republicans and independents take note.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/boycott-the-gop/550907/

Yup, and as soon as you realize the Democratic party isn't a "good universe" version of the GOP but rather a different side of the same corrupt, tribal, authoritarian coin, you can join the rest of us who "waste" our votes on third party candidates.

I get the impression you didn't read the article at all.

Yeah, I think that's fairly obvious.

*sigh*

The erosion of the rule of law, while especially egregious under Trump, has been fairly consistent for as long as I've been paying attention, which is essentially since Clinton1.  At first it was spectacle that took a harsh turn towards a dark place at 9/11.  But you can't really say the Democrats are the "we respect the law" party after the utter travesty of that last nomination choice.  In the game of pick your future felon, we lose no matter what.

https://youtu.be/w7NeRiNefO0

But clearly since I don't agree with you, I didn't read.  Because I suggested an alternate strategy that I believe has far more chance of bringing about actual reform, I'm dismissed.

Definitely voting for the party of open-mindedness!

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3402
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #783 on: February 05, 2018, 03:32:03 PM »
From The Atlantic today.

Republicans and independents take note.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/boycott-the-gop/550907/

Yup, and as soon as you realize the Democratic party isn't a "good universe" version of the GOP but rather a different side of the same corrupt, tribal, authoritarian coin, you can join the rest of us who "waste" our votes on third party candidates.

I get the impression you didn't read the article at all.

Yeah, I think that's fairly obvious.

*sigh*

The erosion of the rule of law, while especially egregious under Trump, has been fairly consistent for as long as I've been paying attention, which is essentially since Clinton1.  At first it was spectacle that took a harsh turn towards a dark place at 9/11.  But you can't really say the Democrats are the "we respect the law" party after the utter travesty of that last nomination choice.  In the game of pick your future felon, we lose no matter what.

https://youtu.be/w7NeRiNefO0

But clearly since I don't agree with you, I didn't read. Because I suggested an alternate strategy that I believe has far more chance of bringing about actual reform, I'm dismissed.

Definitely voting for the party of open-mindedness!

No. I didn't write the article.

It seems clear you didn't read the article because the things you are saying don't really engage or address what the article actually says.


jinga nation

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 974
  • Location: 'Murica's Wang
  • Left, Right, Peddlin' Shite
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #784 on: February 05, 2018, 03:47:37 PM »
Interestingly, my take is that people would be far more sympathetic to protesting the actual national anthem rather than using the national anthem to protest something else. If the whole thing was actually sung at sporting events, it wouldn't take long for the singing to stop.

Verse 3:
Quote
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

Guthrie's "This Land is Your Land" is similar. The lyrics have 2 verses that are rarely sang at events.

    In the squares of the city, In the shadow of a steeple;
    By the relief office, I'd seen my people.
    As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking,
    Is this land made for you and me?

Thank you. I'd never have known this.

http://www.woodyguthrie.org/Lyrics/This_Land.htm.

Jrr85

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #785 on: February 05, 2018, 04:45:09 PM »
From The Atlantic today.

Republicans and independents take note.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/boycott-the-gop/550907/

Yup, and as soon as you realize the Democratic party isn't a "good universe" version of the GOP but rather a different side of the same corrupt, tribal, authoritarian coin, you can join the rest of us who "waste" our votes on third party candidates.

I get the impression you didn't read the article at all.

Yeah, I think that's fairly obvious.

*sigh*

The erosion of the rule of law, while especially egregious under Trump, has been fairly consistent for as long as I've been paying attention, which is essentially since Clinton1.  At first it was spectacle that took a harsh turn towards a dark place at 9/11.  But you can't really say the Democrats are the "we respect the law" party after the utter travesty of that last nomination choice.  In the game of pick your future felon, we lose no matter what.

https://youtu.be/w7NeRiNefO0

But clearly since I don't agree with you, I didn't read. Because I suggested an alternate strategy that I believe has far more chance of bringing about actual reform, I'm dismissed.

Definitely voting for the party of open-mindedness!

No. I didn't write the article.

It seems clear you didn't read the article because the things you are saying don't really engage or address what the article actually says.

Yes, they do.  He didn't go point by point to make rebuttals, but if you don't think it was responsive, maybe you didn't read the article???

shenlong55

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 369
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Kentucky
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #786 on: February 05, 2018, 05:07:26 PM »
From The Atlantic today.

Republicans and independents take note.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/boycott-the-gop/550907/

Yup, and as soon as you realize the Democratic party isn't a "good universe" version of the GOP but rather a different side of the same corrupt, tribal, authoritarian coin, you can join the rest of us who "waste" our votes on third party candidates.

I get the impression you didn't read the article at all.

Yeah, I think that's fairly obvious.

*sigh*

The erosion of the rule of law, while especially egregious under Trump, has been fairly consistent for as long as I've been paying attention, which is essentially since Clinton1.  At first it was spectacle that took a harsh turn towards a dark place at 9/11.  But you can't really say the Democrats are the "we respect the law" party after the utter travesty of that last nomination choice.  In the game of pick your future felon, we lose no matter what.

https://youtu.be/w7NeRiNefO0

But clearly since I don't agree with you, I didn't read.  Because I suggested an alternate strategy that I believe has far more chance of bringing about actual reform, I'm dismissed.

Definitely voting for the party of open-mindedness!

I'm curious, in what ways do you think that democrats have eroded the rule of law?

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3402
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #787 on: February 05, 2018, 05:07:34 PM »
From The Atlantic today.

Republicans and independents take note.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/boycott-the-gop/550907/

Yup, and as soon as you realize the Democratic party isn't a "good universe" version of the GOP but rather a different side of the same corrupt, tribal, authoritarian coin, you can join the rest of us who "waste" our votes on third party candidates.

I get the impression you didn't read the article at all.

Yeah, I think that's fairly obvious.

*sigh*

The erosion of the rule of law, while especially egregious under Trump, has been fairly consistent for as long as I've been paying attention, which is essentially since Clinton1.  At first it was spectacle that took a harsh turn towards a dark place at 9/11.  But you can't really say the Democrats are the "we respect the law" party after the utter travesty of that last nomination choice.  In the game of pick your future felon, we lose no matter what.

https://youtu.be/w7NeRiNefO0

But clearly since I don't agree with you, I didn't read. Because I suggested an alternate strategy that I believe has far more chance of bringing about actual reform, I'm dismissed.

Definitely voting for the party of open-mindedness!

No. I didn't write the article.

It seems clear you didn't read the article because the things you are saying don't really engage or address what the article actually says.

Yes, they do.  He didn't go point by point to make rebuttals, but if you don't think it was responsive, maybe you didn't read the article???

If you think that was any sort of response to the article, then I canít help you.

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3402
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #788 on: February 05, 2018, 05:08:36 PM »
So, how Ďbout that Dow Jones, eh?

Yup. Electing that businessman is sure working out for America.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/05/trump-stock-market-down-324880

YttriumNitrate

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
  • Location: Northwest Indiana
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #789 on: February 05, 2018, 05:44:34 PM »
So, how Ďbout that Dow Jones, eh?
Yup. Electing that businessman is sure working out for America.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/05/trump-stock-market-down-324880
If you are going credit or blame daily market swings to the president, you should also give him credit for the market being up 15%+ since his inauguration (even with the recent pull back).

I'm of the camp that thinks the president's power to affect the economy (good or bad) is generally far overstated.

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3402
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #790 on: February 05, 2018, 07:26:53 PM »
So, how Ďbout that Dow Jones, eh?
Yup. Electing that businessman is sure working out for America.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/05/trump-stock-market-down-324880
If you are going credit or blame daily market swings to the president, you should also give him credit for the market being up 15%+ since his inauguration (even with the recent pull back).

I'm of the camp that thinks the president's power to affect the economy (good or bad) is generally far overstated.

Yes, generally speaking, it certainly is. In this case, we have a president who doesnít know what the hell heís doing and doesnít care, and just handed the GOP Congress a unique opportunity for a bold-faced money grab that leads us down this path.

Another perspective from Yahoo Finance.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres-investors-nervous-stocks-right-now-171447766.html
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 08:25:13 PM by Kris »

Just Joe

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2209
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #791 on: February 06, 2018, 07:28:46 AM »
Wait - which party is the party of open-mindedness?

DarkandStormy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1144
  • Age: 29
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #792 on: February 06, 2018, 07:42:30 AM »
So, how Ďbout that Dow Jones, eh?
Yup. Electing that businessman is sure working out for America.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/05/trump-stock-market-down-324880
If you are going credit or blame daily market swings to the president, you should also give him credit for the market being up 15%+ since his inauguration (even with the recent pull back).

I'm of the camp that thinks the president's power to affect the economy (good or bad) is generally far overstated.

You're kind of missing the point.  Trump bragged (stupidly) about new stock record after new stock record which he had nothing to do with (Thanks, Yellen).  Now he's quiet with the market dropping.

All the major indecies increased drastically better under Obama's first year than Trump's if he wants to play the stock market headline game.

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3744
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #793 on: February 06, 2018, 07:57:53 AM »
So, how Ďbout that Dow Jones, eh?
Yup. Electing that businessman is sure working out for America.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/05/trump-stock-market-down-324880
If you are going credit or blame daily market swings to the president, you should also give him credit for the market being up 15%+ since his inauguration (even with the recent pull back).

I'm of the camp that thinks the president's power to affect the economy (good or bad) is generally far overstated.

You're kind of missing the point.  Trump bragged (stupidly) about new stock record after new stock record which he had nothing to do with (Thanks, Yellen).  Now he's quiet with the market dropping.

All the major indecies increased drastically better under Obama's first year than Trump's if he wants to play the stock market headline game.
The major indeces increased more under Obama's first year because they were recovering from a low base - it's an economic truism that rapid improvement is easier from a low base.

Part of Trump's stupidity, in addition to bragging about something out of his control is that in hyping stock market returns under his Presidency he was choosing to play a game he couldn't win.


Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3402
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #794 on: February 06, 2018, 08:00:42 AM »
So, how Ďbout that Dow Jones, eh?
Yup. Electing that businessman is sure working out for America.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/05/trump-stock-market-down-324880
If you are going credit or blame daily market swings to the president, you should also give him credit for the market being up 15%+ since his inauguration (even with the recent pull back).

I'm of the camp that thinks the president's power to affect the economy (good or bad) is generally far overstated.

You're kind of missing the point.  Trump bragged (stupidly) about new stock record after new stock record which he had nothing to do with (Thanks, Yellen).  Now he's quiet with the market dropping.

All the major indecies increased drastically better under Obama's first year than Trump's if he wants to play the stock market headline game.
The major indeces increased more under Obama's first year because they were recovering from a low base - it's an economic truism that rapid improvement is easier from a low base.

Part of Trump's stupidity, in addition to bragging about something out of his control is that in hyping stock market returns under his Presidency he was choosing to play a game he couldn't win.

Trump's own Secretary of the Treasury, Steve Mnuchin has said the same thing -- that the stock market is the Trump administration's report card.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/23/mnuchin-the-stock-market-is-the-trump-administrations-report-card.html

Which means that Mnuchin is too stupid to do his job, or he's a lying sack of shit just like the president is.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12294
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #795 on: February 06, 2018, 08:08:50 AM »
Or he's a deep state operative trying to bring down the one good man in politics right now.   :D

cliffhanger

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 114
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #796 on: February 06, 2018, 08:14:16 AM »
Wait - which party is the party of open-mindedness?

Most recently? The right. Even though the polarization we have faced recently by each side is very bad for our nation, the left has gone off the deep end.

Among other things, they have:

Banned pro-life women from the Woman's March.

Caused enormous security fees for conservative speakers due to threats of violence.

Pushed normally liberal people away.

From the last link:
Quote
Today's progressivism has become a faux-moral movement hurling charges of racism, bigotry, xenophobia, homophobia, Islamophobia and a slew of other meaningless buzzwords at anyone they disagree with.

The battle of ideas has been replaced by a battle of feelings, and outrage has replaced honesty. Diversity reigns supreme, as long as itís not that pesky diversity of thought.

This isnít the recipe for a free society, itís a recipe for authoritarianism.

For these reasons, I can no longer call myself a progressive. I donít really call myself a Democrat either. Iím a classical liberal, a free thinker, and as much as I donít like to admit it, defending my liberal values has suddenly become a conservative position

-Dave Rubin

I personally was not attracted to the right in my vote for Trump, I was pushed from the left.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12294
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #797 on: February 06, 2018, 08:27:09 AM »
Wait - which party is the party of open-mindedness?

Most recently? The right. Even though the polarization we have faced recently by each side is very bad for our nation, the left has gone off the deep end.

Among other things, they have:

Banned pro-life women from the Woman's March.

Caused enormous security fees for conservative speakers due to threats of violence.

Pushed normally liberal people away.

From the last link:
Quote
Today's progressivism has become a faux-moral movement hurling charges of racism, bigotry, xenophobia, homophobia, Islamophobia and a slew of other meaningless buzzwords at anyone they disagree with.

The battle of ideas has been replaced by a battle of feelings, and outrage has replaced honesty. Diversity reigns supreme, as long as itís not that pesky diversity of thought.

This isnít the recipe for a free society, itís a recipe for authoritarianism.

For these reasons, I can no longer call myself a progressive. I donít really call myself a Democrat either. Iím a classical liberal, a free thinker, and as much as I donít like to admit it, defending my liberal values has suddenly become a conservative position

-Dave Rubin

I personally was not attracted to the right in my vote for Trump, I was pushed from the left.

Agreed, the right is much more inclusive.  They happily court and support the type of people that the left wants nothing to do with:

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/arthur-jones-republican-nomination_us_5a77d3f6e4b0905433b5bd84

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-shithole-countries-neo-nazis-white-supremacists-celebrate-more-or-less-same-page-racist-a8157796.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/neo-nazis-celebrate-trumps-remarks-about-charlottesville-riots-2017-8

partgypsy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2438
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #798 on: February 06, 2018, 08:40:29 AM »
Wait - which party is the party of open-mindedness?

Most recently? The right. Even though the polarization we have faced recently by each side is very bad for our nation, the left has gone off the deep end.

Among other things, they have:

Banned pro-life women from the Woman's March.

Caused enormous security fees for conservative speakers due to threats of violence.

Pushed normally liberal people away.

From the last link:
Quote
Today's progressivism has become a faux-moral movement hurling charges of racism, bigotry, xenophobia, homophobia, Islamophobia and a slew of other meaningless buzzwords at anyone they disagree with.

The battle of ideas has been replaced by a battle of feelings, and outrage has replaced honesty. Diversity reigns supreme, as long as itís not that pesky diversity of thought.

This isnít the recipe for a free society, itís a recipe for authoritarianism.

For these reasons, I can no longer call myself a progressive. I donít really call myself a Democrat either. Iím a classical liberal, a free thinker, and as much as I donít like to admit it, defending my liberal values has suddenly become a conservative position

-Dave Rubin

I personally was not attracted to the right in my vote for Trump, I was pushed from the left.

If you look at the Republicans of even 20 years ago, it's clear it is the right who have gone off the deep end. At the very least conservatives were constitutionalists. But the current administration has made many statements that if enacted, would undermine the constitution, specificially checks and balances.

I think you conflating people you see on the "left" with the Democratic party positions and legislation. If you look at party positions and legislation of the Democratic party, versus what kinds of legislation the current Republican party and this administration in particular have done, there are still moderate Democrats but the Republican party is under the control of a minority of far right views. It is telling that, if you looked at the policy positions of Hillary Clinton, she is a moderate or even conservative Democrat. in European countries her views would place her under the moderate conservative party.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 10:20:20 AM by partgypsy »

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1770
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #799 on: February 06, 2018, 08:45:34 AM »
Wait - which party is the party of open-mindedness?

Most recently? The right.

LMAO, the party of the alt-right, "some" Neo-Nazi's are good people, "some" Mexicans are good people, "shit-hole countries," gay conversion therapy, Roy Moore support, Muslim ban, I could go on and on.

Definitely pales in comparison though to much higher speaking fees. Oh the horror!!!!