Author Topic: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?  (Read 11227 times)

TexasRunner

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #150 on: December 06, 2017, 02:05:49 PM »
3.  Trump/Russia
Don't care.  You are going to have to prove to me that actual laws were broken or known to be broken by the POTUS for me to care.  Any Dems here care about Obama's gun running scandal (Fast and Furious)?  Laws were broken there too.

1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

2) Watch this. Watch this from 6:12 to 8:52.

This is inaccurate because I did refute the point. 

Quote
Don't care.  You are going to have to prove to me that actual laws were broken or known to be broken by the POTUS for me to care.

Besides, I was stating my position rather than refuting something or presenting a counter-argument.

You are trying to dissent my statement regarding the "whataboutism" while refusing to acknowledge that ACTUAL point I made, as in nothing is proven yet.
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JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #151 on: December 06, 2017, 02:12:30 PM »
3.  Trump/Russia
Don't care.  You are going to have to prove to me that actual laws were broken or known to be broken by the POTUS for me to care.  Any Dems here care about Obama's gun running scandal (Fast and Furious)?  Laws were broken there too.

1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

2) Watch this. Watch this from 6:12 to 8:52.

This is inaccurate because I did refute the point. 

Quote
Don't care.  You are going to have to prove to me that actual laws were broken or known to be broken by the POTUS for me to care.

Besides, I was stating my position rather than refuting something or presenting a counter-argument.

You are trying to dissent my statement regarding the "whataboutism" while refusing to acknowledge that ACTUAL point I made, as in nothing is proven yet.

Why are you attempting to divert the discussion back to Obama, then?

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #152 on: December 06, 2017, 02:24:50 PM »
I have three questions for all the non-racist Trump supporters on here.

1) Do you believe Barack Obama was born in the United States?

2) Do you believe Barack Obama is a Christian?

3) Do you believe it is acceptable that Donald Trump has asserted on numerous occasions that Obama was not born in this country and has suggested repeatedly that he is actually a Muslim?

As someone who generally votes GOP and did not vote for HRC:

1) I know for a fact BO was born in the United States, this isn't a matter of faith.  No serious individual on the right was bringing this up, liberal media highlighted crackpots over and over to discredit serious people on the right, and ultimately elected one of those crackpots president, and even now as evidenced by your question do not take responsibility for this unbelievably divisive form of journalism.  Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

2) Do you believe Barack Obama is a Christian?  For someone outside the faith looking in, I think he probably looks like he is.  As a christian, I'd love to have a conversation with him, because I worry that he has been led astray by a particularly pervasive ideology within christianity that is not very helpful.  It's like being a B- Christian when I think if I had a couple of hours I could get him up to A+ territory.  You can PM me if you are genuinely curious about it, but it's alot less interesting than you probably think.

3)  I don't believe it is acceptable that DT has asserted on numerous occasions that Obama was not born in this country and has suggested repeatedly that he is actually a Muslim.  But I also believe trollish behavior of any sort is unacceptable, and the only way to deal with it is to ignore it.  I sincerely wish these aspects of Trump had been ignored.  Ya'all got trolled hard, and you could not stop feeding that troll.

I have some questions for you, I will limit them to three.

A)  Do you believe Democratic Voters who voted for BO but did not show up for HRC are racist?

B)  Do you acknowledge now that given the known baggage of an HRC nomination she was probably not the best choice?

C)  Are you at all concerned that neither party seems to care what the other party thinks of their nominee, and have seemingly decided that moderates/independents/undecideds are not worth pursuing?  That HRC was probably the single most hated registered democrat by the GOP voter is perversely seen as an asset and not a liability?  And likewise, that Democrats were incensed by the very idea of Trump was seen as a good thing by most in the GOP?  I gather, from reading editorials of the day, that there was a grudging respect for the candidate on the other side, by even the most stringent partisan, in the before times. 

"They're both decent human beings but I like mine better?" Is nowhere on the horizon.  There's barely twelve politicians in all of Congress/Executive branch I don't actively dislike.

Trump is an absolute train wreck of a president.  Just as he was as a candidate.  Everyone has considered what happens when an immovable object encounters an unstoppable object.  Well this presidency is what happens when two unelectable people run for office - chaos and horribleness.

I can't tell you how relieved I was when the democrats nominated BO instead of HRC.  Whichever democrat ran after Bush2 was going to win, and HRC would be terrible as president, absolutely break the government.  I knew nothing about BO (because I'm racist obviously, not because I'm not from Chicago and he hadn't done much), but by default he was a better choice than HRC.  That breaking happened anyway, and racism probably played more into it than either side is willing to admit (racist democrats only voting because he was black, giving the democrats a false sense that the whole country really wanted the ACA, and racist republicans putting up with some bullshit from their own party just because he was black).  Voted for McCain in the 2000 primary by the way because war hero, and I still wonder how much better off we'd all be if it had been McCain vs Gore in 2000, Gore getting his ass handed to him legit and not starting the Democrats down a very dark path in order to win what they increasingly seemed to think was a rigged game.

The ACA didn't need to happen and it is a massive unfunded entitlement program that can be opposed without being a heartless racist asshole.  But from 2008 to 2016 if you opposed anything the Democrats did you were a heartless racist asshole, so no, in the original version of that story, the boy who cried wolf got eaten by the wolf.  The Democrats who cried racist got eaten by a racist.  You see where we are now?  THAT's a racist opposition.  See the difference?  Now apologize because you all look like assholes.  No?  So much for revising opinions based on new information...

2004:  62 million votes for GB2, 59 million votes for Kdog (we'll use this as the baseline, because at this point nobody liked Bush but Kerry was, *shakes head* such a bad option, 2 rich old white men that believe in tax and spend though so no obvious racist reason to prefer either)
2008: 69.5 million votes for BO, 59 million for McC  (here we see the ten million racist democrats show up to vote)
2012:  65.9 million votes for BO, 60 million for MtR  (five million democrats became racist the other way, no other reason is possible to not vote for BO)
2016: 65.8 million votes for HRC, 62 million votes for McDbag (nother hundred thousand democrats went the racist route, two million racists decided to join the GoP, I put it closer to twelve million, because most of the GOP I know stayed the fuck home #notmycandidate)

To keep the GOP base motivated, a candidate has to speak to the religious right, the nationalistic right, the small government right, and the uber wealthy right.  To keep the Democratic base interested, the candidate must BE BLACK.  Stop calling everyone else racist and claiming some moral high ground.  Start caring about winning and pick candidates we don't think are scum.  If both sides keep picking garbage candidates we're going to have random outcomes and that is what's going to bring down the empire.

This post has all been rhetorical and I believe none of it, but this article at Vox pretty much sums up why nobody to the right of the far left can get into their echo chamber, or is really interested in trying:

https://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberalism

"It has led an American ideology hitherto responsible for a great share of the good accomplished over the past century of our political life to a posture of reaction and disrespect: a condescending, defensive sneer toward any person or movement outside of its consensus, dressed up as a monopoly on reason." - from the article linked above.

Anyone who can engage a smug liberal and walk away seemingly unfazed can win an election now, that's how intolerable that style is.  As it happens, yes, the Trump voter will forgive anything if their candidate can make you go apoplectic.


As for regretting my vote - as someone's signature notes, I voted 3rd party, which is what you all should have done.  Say what you want about where we'd be, at least we'd be high.

The tax plan has been interesting to see it develop.  I haven't checked yet to see where it landed but aside from the massively irresponsible deficit spending it was headed in a direction that makes sense to me.

I'm seemingly in favor of a constitutional amendment prohibiting POTUS from using Twitter though.  For real we should get on that.
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DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #153 on: December 06, 2017, 02:25:53 PM »
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Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #154 on: December 06, 2017, 02:38:35 PM »
The narrative that anyone who votes Republican is automatically racist, xenophobic etc. is certainly pervasive, but it's also unbelievably insulting and frankly childish.

Over the past year, I have had a personal shift in my overarching mindset that has affected what I think and how I act, particularly when it comes to politics and general social issues. Last year, I may not have called a Trump supporter a racist to their face, but I was definitely thinking it. I was so quick to judge without considering what other reasons could exist for making someone want to align with him (even if they were not good reasons). I do not rush to judgment anymore.

I think this speaks to extreme polarity though. I have what I'd consider to be far-left friends who think anyone right of here is a racist, fascist, Nazi sympathizer. I also have friends who think anyone who didn't vote Trump are tree-hugging Lefty libtards. (Their words, not mine.)

The inability of people to empathize with or understand people from outside their particular section of the spectrum is an issue that I doubt will ever be fixed.

+1

This has been perhaps the most disheartening thing about the past year or so. We talk about Trump supporters being in a bubble all the time, but there is also a second bubble full of anti-Trump folks. Neither of which try or care to understand the other side. We've seen politically motivated violence rise, I think in part because we dehumanize the other side. This is truly awful behavior that needs to stop.
 

+1000.  Look at all the presumably otherwise intelligent people in this thread that have made themselves dumb through tribalism. 

I get Trump is terrible.  But Clinton was terrible. And Bernie Sanders was terrible.  I can understand how anyone could convince themselves that any of those three was the least evil option.  I don't really get how anybody could be particularly fired up about any of those options except for Bernie, just because free stuff that other people pay for is always going to be enticing to a sizable portion of the population.  But I'm not so stupid to assume that everybody that actually likes Clinton or Trump (much less just came to a different decision as to which was the lesser evil), is either irredeemably stupid or has some irredeemable character flaw. 

As far as Trump, there are plenty of reasons for voters to be happy:

1) Gorsuch.  That was an excellent S.Ct. pick.  He is making good picks up and down the line to my knowledge.
2) Gridlock.  Congress hasn't made many things worse yet.  The tax bills are a mix of good and bad, but they're not really making things worse.  We're eventually going to have to reconcile revenue and spending, and they are going to move the timeline up on that marginally.
3) Rolling back executive power (or at least slowing its expansion).  As big of an egomaniac as Trump is, he is shockingly doing less to expand presidential powers than the last two presidents.  I'm not sure it's intentional, but nonetheless, a good thing.
4) Maybe a respect for the consitution and separation of powers? --> People on the left all of the sudden think that maybe separation of powers is a good thing.  This probably won't last when another democrat is in power, but maybe there will be slight hesitation to expand executive power or to undo longstanding restraints on power.  Certainly you'd think they have to wonder whether doing away with the filibuster was a good idea in hindsight. 
5)  A press that cares.  The press is generally filled with mediocrities who aren't currently capable of doing much more than flinging poo.  But, I'd rather have them flinging poo than being sycophants.
6)  Sexual harassment/assault is suddenly taboo even in leftist enclaves.  Not entirely sure this is a result of the Trump presidency, but I wonder whether all these powerful leftists in leftist controlled industries would really be paying the piper if Hillary (who herself was pretty accomplished at attacking victims of sexual assault) was the president.
7) Due process is going to be reestablished on campus.
8) Clamor for paring back the first amendment has died down.
9) Whatever Trump's weaknesses, it doesn't look like he is going to drive us off a cliff or precipitate any disasters (or at least he isn't any more likely than the last few presidents to do so).   
 

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #155 on: December 06, 2017, 02:44:09 PM »
9.  Women's rights/issues
Saying some inappropriate things in a private setting years ago doesn't deter me or change my opinion.  Other than that, I don't see any other rights that have changed or degraded...  Still waiting on someone to point some out.

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/women/reports/2017/04/25/430969/100-days-100-ways-trump-administration-harming-women-families/

Quote
By undoing the Fair Pay and Safe Workplaces Executive Order, Trump eliminated a requirement for federal contractors to provide employees with basic information about their pay, including hours worked, overtime earnings, and any pay deductions. Such information is critical for all workers—particularly women, who are more likely to work in hourly jobs—to ensure that they are being paid what they have earned.

Quote
By undoing the Fair Pay and Safe Workplaces Executive Order, Trump also made it easier for federal contractors with chronic violations of sex discrimination and other employment laws to keep getting federal funding.

Quote
Trump’s federal hiring freeze forced at least two military bases to suspend enrollment at military child care facilities when they were unable to hire child care providers. Service members depend on high-quality child care to perform their duties each day.

Quote
Trump’s administration made no movement on equal pay in the first 100 days, despite referencing support for equal pay occasionally throughout his campaign. Trump offered no concrete action to strengthen equal pay protections.

Quote
The Trump budget would cut $403 million in health profession and nurse training programs, jobs that are disproportionately held by women workers.

Quote
The Trump-championed American Health Care Act, or AHCA, proposed the elimination of essential health benefits, which include pediatric services—meaning that a family’s insurance might not cover vaccines, eye exams, and well-child visits. This would disproportionately affect women, who often take on the primary responsibility for ensuring their family gets the heath care it needs.

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Trump signed a bill to overturn Obama-era protections for Title X grantees, allowing states to block Title X funding for providers that also offer abortion with nonfederal funds, including Planned Parenthood. Title X funding provides critical reproductive, educational, and counseling services related to family planning and contraception to 4 million clients each year.

Quote
In an Oval Office interview, Trump defended conservative commentator Bill O’Reilly from sexual harassment allegations despite evidence that Fox has already paid more than $13 million to settle five claims against O’Reilly. Trump’s assumption that the complaints were false reveals his instinct to doubt women who experience harassment and assault and mirrors the attitudes that make it hard for victims to come forward.

Quote
Trump’s Cabinet has just four women. It is more white and more male than any first Cabinet since President Ronald Reagan’s

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Per an analysis of the appointees for jobs that do not need Senate confirmation, Trump has hired three men for every woman.

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2017/10/12/16464204/patients-suffer-trump-new-birth-control-rule

Quote
In 2012, the United Nations declared access to contraception a “basic human right.” Last Friday, the Trump administration made moves to decimate women’s access to birth control — thereby continuing his administration’s war against women.

Last week, the Trump administration announced the rollback of an Obama-era requirement that employers to provide women with insurance that covers birth control. Under the new rule, employers can exempt themselves from this requirement for “religious or moral” reasons. Any employer, regardless of the business, can now opt out of covering contraception. If you are a woman, whether you have to pay for birth control out of your own pocket will soon be dictated by the religious and moral opinions of your employer.

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Access to birth control has been proven over and over again to be good not only for women’s health but also for the health of their families. Planned pregnancies result in healthier pregnancies and higher educational and economic attainment for both parents.

Quote
Of the 61 million women ages 15 to 44, 62 percent of them are using a contraceptive method. The importance of the ACA contraceptive coverage mandate is highlighted in data showing how many women benefit from this coverage. In just two years between 2012 and 2014, the percentage of women accessing the birth control pill — the most common form of contraception — without any cost rose from 15 percent to 67 percent.

Quote
On March 27, Trump revoked the 2014 Fair Pay and Safe Workplaces order then-President Barack Obama put in place to ensure that companies with federal contracts comply with 14 labor and civil rights laws. The Fair Pay order was put in place after a 2010 Government Accountability Office investigation showed that companies with rampant violations were being awarded millions in federal contracts.

In an attempt to keep the worst violators from receiving taxpayer dollars, the Fair Pay order included two rules that impacted women workers: paycheck transparency and a ban on forced arbitration clauses for sexual harassment, sexual assault or discrimination claims.

Is that enough for you?
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sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #156 on: December 06, 2017, 03:05:35 PM »
nothing is proven yet.

I'm assuming that you don't consider multiple people pleading guilty to felony charges as proof of anything illegal happening?

Kris

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #157 on: December 06, 2017, 03:09:35 PM »
I have three questions for all the non-racist Trump supporters on here.

1) Do you believe Barack Obama was born in the United States?

2) Do you believe Barack Obama is a Christian?

3) Do you believe it is acceptable that Donald Trump has asserted on numerous occasions that Obama was not born in this country and has suggested repeatedly that he is actually a Muslim?

As someone who generally votes GOP and did not vote for HRC:

1) I know for a fact BO was born in the United States, this isn't a matter of faith.  No serious individual on the right was bringing this up, liberal media highlighted crackpots over and over to discredit serious people on the right, and ultimately elected one of those crackpots president, and even now as evidenced by your question do not take responsibility for this unbelievably divisive form of journalism.  Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

2) Do you believe Barack Obama is a Christian?  For someone outside the faith looking in, I think he probably looks like he is.  As a christian, I'd love to have a conversation with him, because I worry that he has been led astray by a particularly pervasive ideology within christianity that is not very helpful.  It's like being a B- Christian when I think if I had a couple of hours I could get him up to A+ territory.  You can PM me if you are genuinely curious about it, but it's alot less interesting than you probably think.

3)  I don't believe it is acceptable that DT has asserted on numerous occasions that Obama was not born in this country and has suggested repeatedly that he is actually a Muslim.  But I also believe trollish behavior of any sort is unacceptable, and the only way to deal with it is to ignore it.  I sincerely wish these aspects of Trump had been ignored.  Ya'all got trolled hard, and you could not stop feeding that troll.

I have some questions for you, I will limit them to three.

A)  Do you believe Democratic Voters who voted for BO but did not show up for HRC are racist?

B)  Do you acknowledge now that given the known baggage of an HRC nomination she was probably not the best choice?

C)  Are you at all concerned that neither party seems to care what the other party thinks of their nominee, and have seemingly decided that moderates/independents/undecideds are not worth pursuing?  That HRC was probably the single most hated registered democrat by the GOP voter is perversely seen as an asset and not a liability?  And likewise, that Democrats were incensed by the very idea of Trump was seen as a good thing by most in the GOP?  I gather, from reading editorials of the day, that there was a grudging respect for the candidate on the other side, by even the most stringent partisan, in the before times. 

"They're both decent human beings but I like mine better?" Is nowhere on the horizon.  There's barely twelve politicians in all of Congress/Executive branch I don't actively dislike.

Trump is an absolute train wreck of a president.  Just as he was as a candidate.  Everyone has considered what happens when an immovable object encounters an unstoppable object.  Well this presidency is what happens when two unelectable people run for office - chaos and horribleness.

I can't tell you how relieved I was when the democrats nominated BO instead of HRC.  Whichever democrat ran after Bush2 was going to win, and HRC would be terrible as president, absolutely break the government.  I knew nothing about BO (because I'm racist obviously, not because I'm not from Chicago and he hadn't done much), but by default he was a better choice than HRC.  That breaking happened anyway, and racism probably played more into it than either side is willing to admit (racist democrats only voting because he was black, giving the democrats a false sense that the whole country really wanted the ACA, and racist republicans putting up with some bullshit from their own party just because he was black).  Voted for McCain in the 2000 primary by the way because war hero, and I still wonder how much better off we'd all be if it had been McCain vs Gore in 2000, Gore getting his ass handed to him legit and not starting the Democrats down a very dark path in order to win what they increasingly seemed to think was a rigged game.

The ACA didn't need to happen and it is a massive unfunded entitlement program that can be opposed without being a heartless racist asshole.  But from 2008 to 2016 if you opposed anything the Democrats did you were a heartless racist asshole, so no, in the original version of that story, the boy who cried wolf got eaten by the wolf.  The Democrats who cried racist got eaten by a racist.  You see where we are now?  THAT's a racist opposition.  See the difference?  Now apologize because you all look like assholes.  No?  So much for revising opinions based on new information...

2004:  62 million votes for GB2, 59 million votes for Kdog (we'll use this as the baseline, because at this point nobody liked Bush but Kerry was, *shakes head* such a bad option, 2 rich old white men that believe in tax and spend though so no obvious racist reason to prefer either)
2008: 69.5 million votes for BO, 59 million for McC  (here we see the ten million racist democrats show up to vote)
2012:  65.9 million votes for BO, 60 million for MtR  (five million democrats became racist the other way, no other reason is possible to not vote for BO)
2016: 65.8 million votes for HRC, 62 million votes for McDbag (nother hundred thousand democrats went the racist route, two million racists decided to join the GoP, I put it closer to twelve million, because most of the GOP I know stayed the fuck home #notmycandidate)

To keep the GOP base motivated, a candidate has to speak to the religious right, the nationalistic right, the small government right, and the uber wealthy right.  To keep the Democratic base interested, the candidate must BE BLACK.  Stop calling everyone else racist and claiming some moral high ground.  Start caring about winning and pick candidates we don't think are scum.  If both sides keep picking garbage candidates we're going to have random outcomes and that is what's going to bring down the empire.

This post has all been rhetorical and I believe none of it, but this article at Vox pretty much sums up why nobody to the right of the far left can get into their echo chamber, or is really interested in trying:

https://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberalism

"It has led an American ideology hitherto responsible for a great share of the good accomplished over the past century of our political life to a posture of reaction and disrespect: a condescending, defensive sneer toward any person or movement outside of its consensus, dressed up as a monopoly on reason." - from the article linked above.

Anyone who can engage a smug liberal and walk away seemingly unfazed can win an election now, that's how intolerable that style is.  As it happens, yes, the Trump voter will forgive anything if their candidate can make you go apoplectic.


As for regretting my vote - as someone's signature notes, I voted 3rd party, which is what you all should have done.  Say what you want about where we'd be, at least we'd be high.

The tax plan has been interesting to see it develop.  I haven't checked yet to see where it landed but aside from the massively irresponsible deficit spending it was headed in a direction that makes sense to me.

I'm seemingly in favor of a constitutional amendment prohibiting POTUS from using Twitter though.  For real we should get on that.


A) No.

B) Given that the two choices were Bernie and Hillary... meh.

C) The GOP has been running on a politics of extreme hatred, fear-mongering, and distortion of the other side since Newt Gingrich. I see no real evidence that HRC was probably the single most hated registered democrat by the GOP voter was seen as an asset and not a liability. And honestly, I see no real evidence that the RNC saw that the Democrats were incensed by the very idea of Trump as a good thing. What I did see was that once Trump was elected, they went with what they had. They played up the demonizing of HRC, in the hopes that this would overcome the distaste of the mainline Republicans for Trump, while keeping the hard right frothing at the mouth at the possibility that Clinton could get elected.

Honestly, I did see a grudging respect of HRC from a very few of the older guard of the Republicans. The ones who never endorsed Trump, and the very few who even said they were voting for Clinton. (Including George HW Bush.)

On the other side: I'm sorry, but I don't see the inability of Democrats to have grudging respect for Trump as anything to call them out for. He is not worthy of it.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

TexasRunner

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #158 on: December 06, 2017, 03:31:27 PM »
9.  Women's rights/issues
Saying some inappropriate things in a private setting years ago doesn't deter me or change my opinion.  Other than that, I don't see any other rights that have changed or degraded...  Still waiting on someone to point some out.

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/women/reports/2017/04/25/430969/100-days-100-ways-trump-administration-harming-women-families/

Quote
By undoing the Fair Pay and Safe Workplaces Executive Order, Trump eliminated a requirement for federal contractors to provide employees with basic information about their pay, including hours worked, overtime earnings, and any pay deductions. Such information is critical for all workers—particularly women, who are more likely to work in hourly jobs—to ensure that they are being paid what they have earned.

This seems like a stretch and isn't specifically targeted at women.  He was removing regulations and the drastic overreaching of the previous president.  Was he focused specifically on removing women's rights when he signed this...?  Probably not.

Also I would gander that there is a massively statistical over-representation of men in the jobs described, thus naturally affecting women less predominantly than men, since the description is in regards to information that pertains to all workers, (IE hours, pay etc) rather than specifically women.

Also haven't heard of a job that doesn't provide this basic info on every paycheck....

Quote
By undoing the Fair Pay and Safe Workplaces Executive Order, Trump also made it easier for federal contractors with chronic violations of sex discrimination and other employment laws to keep getting federal funding.

Don't see any actual example, just speculation.  Also, Fair Pay and Safe Workplaces Executive Order was addressed above.  Count is still at (1).

Quote
Trump’s federal hiring freeze forced at least two military bases to suspend enrollment at military child care facilities when they were unable to hire child care providers. Service members depend on high-quality child care to perform their duties each day.

Unfortunate side-effect with no possible way of foreseeing it, but I do recall many here asking for reduced Defense spending so there ya go!!

Quote
Trump’s administration made no movement on equal pay in the first 100 days, despite referencing support for equal pay occasionally throughout his campaign. Trump offered no concrete action to strengthen equal pay protections.

Not intentionally pursuing something in not equal to a violation on womens rights, sorry strikeout.

Quote
The Trump budget would cut $403 million in health profession and nurse training programs, jobs that are disproportionately held by women workers.

Not specifically aimed at women.

Quote
The Trump-championed American Health Care Act, or AHCA, proposed the elimination of essential health benefits, which include pediatric services—meaning that a family’s insurance might not cover vaccines, eye exams, and well-child visits. This would disproportionately affect women, who often take on the primary responsibility for ensuring their family gets the heath care it needs.

There are plenty on the right who are against ACA, myself included.  That includes these provisions by necessity.  Again, not specifically targeting women.

Quote
Trump signed a bill to overturn Obama-era protections for Title X grantees, allowing states to block Title X funding for providers that also offer abortion with nonfederal funds, including Planned Parenthood. Title X funding provides critical reproductive, educational, and counseling services related to family planning and contraception to 4 million clients each year.

Some of us are against abortion, including blocking federal funds that would flow to abortion providers.  Not looking to get into that discussion.  If you want to call that an attack on women's rights have at it, but that isn't a Trump specific thing.

Quote
In an Oval Office interview, Trump defended conservative commentator Bill O’Reilly from sexual harassment allegations despite evidence that Fox has already paid more than $13 million to settle five claims against O’Reilly. Trump’s assumption that the complaints were false reveals his instinct to doubt women who experience harassment and assault and mirrors the attitudes that make it hard for victims to come forward.

I fail to see how this actually impacts women's rights...?

Quote
Trump’s Cabinet has just four women. It is more white and more male than any first Cabinet since President Ronald Reagan’s

Any statistics on previous presidents?  Are they better or worse?
Doesn't impact women's rights AND is not provably worse than any other president or even any worse than the potential Clinton presidency.

Quote
Per an analysis of the appointees for jobs that do not need Senate confirmation, Trump has hired three men for every woman.

See note above.  Also, doesn't actually impact womens rights.

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2017/10/12/16464204/patients-suffer-trump-new-birth-control-rule

Quote
In 2012, the United Nations declared access to contraception a “basic human right.” Last Friday, the Trump administration made moves to decimate women’s access to birth control — thereby continuing his administration’s war against women.

Last week, the Trump administration announced the rollback of an Obama-era requirement that employers to provide women with insurance that covers birth control. Under the new rule, employers can exempt themselves from this requirement for “religious or moral” reasons. Any employer, regardless of the business, can now opt out of covering contraception. If you are a woman, whether you have to pay for birth control out of your own pocket will soon be dictated by the religious and moral opinions of your employer.

Again, we can have the abortion debate elsewhere, but this isn't a Trump-specific thing.  Why is the federal government in the business of forcing an employer to provide or purchase something for their employee anyway?...

Quote
Access to birth control has been proven over and over again to be good not only for women’s health but also for the health of their families. Planned pregnancies result in healthier pregnancies and higher educational and economic attainment for both parents.

See above.

Quote
Of the 61 million women ages 15 to 44, 62 percent of them are using a contraceptive method. The importance of the ACA contraceptive coverage mandate is highlighted in data showing how many women benefit from this coverage. In just two years between 2012 and 2014, the percentage of women accessing the birth control pill — the most common form of contraception — without any cost rose from 15 percent to 67 percent.

ACA is its own basket of worms and not Trump-specific.  Also not specifically a women's rights thing.

Quote
On March 27, Trump revoked the 2014 Fair Pay and Safe Workplaces order then-President Barack Obama put in place to ensure that companies with federal contracts comply with 14 labor and civil rights laws. The Fair Pay order was put in place after a 2010 Government Accountability Office investigation showed that companies with rampant violations were being awarded millions in federal contracts.

In an attempt to keep the worst violators from receiving taxpayer dollars, the Fair Pay order included two rules that impacted women workers: paycheck transparency and a ban on forced arbitration clauses for sexual harassment, sexual assault or discrimination claims.

Fair Pay and Safe Workplaces Executive Order was addressed above.

Is that enough for you?

I count 5, 3 of which aren't even relevant....  So no.
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TexasRunner

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #159 on: December 06, 2017, 03:33:30 PM »
nothing is proven yet.

I'm assuming that you don't consider multiple people pleading guilty to felony charges as proof of anything illegal happening?

You literally cut my quote down to that one snippet.

I had been on the fence but I'm adding Sol to the ignore list...
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JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #160 on: December 06, 2017, 03:35:25 PM »
9.  Women's rights/issues
Saying some inappropriate things in a private setting years ago doesn't deter me or change my opinion.  Other than that, I don't see any other rights that have changed or degraded...  Still waiting on someone to point some out.

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/women/reports/2017/04/25/430969/100-days-100-ways-trump-administration-harming-women-families/

Quote
By undoing the Fair Pay and Safe Workplaces Executive Order, Trump eliminated a requirement for federal contractors to provide employees with basic information about their pay, including hours worked, overtime earnings, and any pay deductions. Such information is critical for all workers—particularly women, who are more likely to work in hourly jobs—to ensure that they are being paid what they have earned.

This seems like a stretch and isn't specifically targeted at women.  He was removing regulations and the drastic overreaching of the previous president.  Was he focused specifically on removing women's rights when he signed this...?  Probably not.

Also I would gander that there is a massively statistical over-representation of men in the jobs described, thus naturally affecting women less predominantly than men, since the description is in regards to information that pertains to all workers, (IE hours, pay etc) rather than specifically women.

Quote
The Trump budget would cut $403 million in health profession and nurse training programs, jobs that are disproportionately held by women workers.

Not specifically aimed at women.

The first one is irrelevant because there's more men than women, but the second one is irrelevant because it's "not specifically aimed at women"?

You can't have it both ways.

TexasRunner

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #161 on: December 06, 2017, 03:46:14 PM »
The first one is irrelevant because there's more men than women, but the second one is irrelevant because it's "not specifically aimed at women"?

You can't have it both ways.

Two different points refuted with two different arguments, so why not?
Reducing spending on one area of training is not equal to targeting women's rights.



I think the conversation may need to swing to you guys defining exactly what you believe "women's rights" are.

I consider them (1) equal pay for the same work, (2) right to vote or (3) the same rights as anyone else would get...  The federal government reducing spending on an educational program is not the same as targeting women's rights....
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sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #162 on: December 06, 2017, 04:09:51 PM »
nothing is proven yet.

I'm assuming that you don't consider multiple people pleading guilty to felony charges as proof of anything illegal happening?

You literally cut my quote down to that one snippet.

I had been on the fence but I'm adding Sol to the ignore list...

Well it does seem to be the relevant portion.  In context, you were arguing that there was nothing to worry about until something is proven, and you think nothing is proven yet so there's nothing to worry about.  Better?

I was just pointing out that many of us consider a guilty plea to a felony charge as proof of guilt.  I realize that a plea is not technically the same as a conviction, but that seems like a semantic difference in this case.

But while we're on the topic, Trump has lost something like 40 court cases in his life, where a judge banged a gavel and said "guilty", and yet many of his supporters continue to call Clinton a "criminal" despite her never even going to court.  This is the sort of cognitive dissonance that so concerns me about this situation, like he could get impeached for perjury or obstruction or treason and it just wouldn't matter.  nothing will happen to him.  He's Teflon Don, immune to facts and all laws, living in his own fantasy version of reality that exists only in his head and is made manifest for the rest of us by supporters who believe his every word is unassailable truth.

Eventually reality is going to have to snap back into hard focus, as facts reassert themselves.  Hopefully that gets triggered by something short of a mushroom cloud.

cliffhanger

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #163 on: December 06, 2017, 04:31:53 PM »
Hey Dabnasty, I did want to address this, as I was one of posters talking about racist policy.

I absolutely agree that words and rhetoric have an impact, and Trump has no tact. I'm sure most of us would say that race relations in the US have been on the decline for several years. But why do we think this? Is there some metric we can base this decline off of? What has caused the tension? What is the solution? I can't give you a solid answer on any of these questions, and the answers are likely pretty complicated. This is why I point to something real and understandable as a policy that disproportionately and intentionally harms others, so we have a defined issue that we can fight together.

I know this is a pretty high bar to set, but it's the best real solution I can think of. I'd wager that minorities trapped in generational poverty, what I think is the largest racial issue in the country, is not driven by rhetoric. It's driven by policy of city, states, and federal government, in that order. This is why I weigh Trump's actions by 80% and his words by 20%.

I do disagree with the logic behind a couple of your statements; I hope we can discuss.

His campaign has caused damage to race relations since the beginning. The societal changes he has caused worry me more than any legal actions he has taken. Our government is made up of not only the laws we have in place, but the people and what is happening inside their heads.

I would argue that the problem is two fold. Trump says something that's offensive and controversial. The media assigns the worst possible racist motive to his statements and takes it out of context. I think his feud with Rep. Frederica Wilson over a phone call to a slain soldier's widow is a good example of this. Rep. Wilson began by suggesting Trump was uncaring and the soldier "knew what he signed up for, but I guess it still hurts." So, with only that quote from a politically charged, showboating Rep, most media outlets assign the best possible motive to Rep. Wilson and the worst possible motive to Trump. Then, of course, Trump attacks back, and it turns into a shit-show of stupidity. Charging this instance, no matter how stupid on Trump's part, as racism does really harm us culturally. I want to fight racism as much as you, but it harms the cause when we assign racism to everything. That white kid who shot up a church is racist. We could argue that the police officer who shot a black man in the back was motivated by racism. We don't care about these anymore because everything's racist.

OK, so that was longer and more rambling than I intended. I guess the gist of my argument is that I think you don't have the complete picture. Damage to race relations did not get set in motion by Trump's campaign. A large part, but not all, of this damage does come from unjustly charging Trump of racism without evidence. It will not stop until we take feelings completely out of the argument and point to actual racism that we can fight together.

I would agree that Trump did not suddenly create the racial tension we have today but I'm also not sure I would agree that race relations have been on the decline. Like you said it's more a matter of what the media decides to report on and we have no metric to measure. And yes, I do blame anti trump media for overplaying the small things but on the other hand he's said plenty of and done plenty of horrible things that are just as horrible in context. Do you really feel that touting a Muslim ban is taken out of context? Or calling Mexicans immigrants rapists and murderers? There are so many examples in this thread, most of which I don't feel are overplayed.

There's a tactic to create negative feelings toward a group of people that trump and the right wing media in particular uses everyday (again, not just trump but he has legitimized the feelings that already existed). When Fox News and even more so online outlets like Breitbart find every case in the US where an illegal immigrant, transgender person, gay person, or Muslim has committed a crime and report on it as if it is national news, that leads people who consume that media to believe it is the norm. There may have been 1,000 other murders that day, some of them against one of these groups, but that's not the message they want to send.

Your comment on the media blowing every little thing up as racist has some merit but if you are getting that message through a right-leaning news outlet, remember that they are going to take the worst examples of everything. Much like they pick out the minorities who commit crimes they will pick out the ridiculous news sources like Daily KOS, Rachel Maddow and even celebrities who don't know shit and they'll assign everything they say to the "liberals". For the record I don't take those sources seriously at all. They do whine too much. That doesn't mean everyone who is anti-trump is whining along with them.

This topic is broad enough that it's tough to stay on track but I would like to add one more thing. During the campaign trump tweeted an info graphic (terrible little things) claiming that 81% of whites murdered in 2015 were killed by blacks and other completely false statistics on murder. The real number is 15% and most of those were people who knew each other so it wasn't the mugger in an alley scenario that he's trying to scare us with. Even if the stats were accurate this is not something a president should be doing. What purpose does it serve? to get people riled up and scared? But it wasn't true. He, as a person who has followers who take what he says as fact while discounting anyone who disagrees now have another little "fact" to fuel their hatred.

http://www.factcheck.org/2015/11/trump-retweets-bogus-crime-graphic/

I think that at the end of the day, we have a lot of agreement on the potential harm of powerful folks misrepresenting the truth whether it's Fox News, CNN, or even Trump. Everybody has some bias, and these organizations and people have incentive to make anything more outrageous than it seems. Scott Adams does talk a lot about the persuasion of Trump if you're interested in another take. I wish things could be different, but I don't see how this cycle will end. It's almost like we're in an outrage economic cycle. We live in great times, so the supply of real world outrage far outstrips the demand. The gap has to be manufactured.

Trump is a classic example of a fear mongering politician. Lot's of politicians (and the media) are guilty of using this tactic and it is insidious but trump has taken it to another level. I think we would all benefit from trying to better understand our own psychology but just as a start I would recommend some research on why fear mongering is so effective.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fearmongering
https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2012/10/why-are-political-ads-so-frightening.html

Trump may have taken it to the next step, but we're currently trying to shoot through the roof. Let's just stop

https://youtu.be/S0mUp2-LygU
https://youtu.be/wVckRJvuBQY

I guess the best thing I can do is what I control. Be civil and calm myself while others aren't. It won't help on the national political level, but at least it will make a difference to me and those around me.

cliffhanger

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #164 on: December 06, 2017, 05:05:21 PM »
I respectfully disagree with you cliffhanger, that  "a large part, but not all, of this damage does come from unjustly charging Trump of racism without evidence. It will not stop until we take feelings completely out of the argument and point to actual racism that we can fight together." I think there is plenty of evidence that previously the Democratic party, and then at some point Republicans inflamed racial divisions, in both their rhetoric, policies and also jerrymanding to win elections. There is a ton of evidence of this, which as I'm at work I can't cite, but you can dip your toes in by looking at robocalls and mailings done which were funded by Karl Rove. In the state I am in (NC) the jerrymanding done to increase Republican control by having African American votes be concentrated or split depending on what would work, was so bad it was declared unconstitutional. However it didn't undo the election results and we are still dealing with it. Democrats, by saying that everyone in this country should have access to good education, healthcare, jobs, etc is NOT racist. It's what this country stands for. That politicians who say it is not a level playing field are simply pointing out the obvious. Don't shoot the messenger.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/05/trump-butler-anthony-senecal-facebook-kill-obama/#
I don't need any additional evidence that Trump is actively hostile and contemptuous to anyone who is not like him. The whole Obama is from Kenya should be enough for anyone. Or that the KKK endorsed him as a candidate. Or the lawsuits. Or the people he favors, such as his longtime butler Anthony Senecal whom he kept on even after his incredibly racist comments were publicized. Or Steven Bannon who said at the 2016 Republican Convention "We are the party of the alt-right."  If you don't understand why a huge percentage of the US population feels alienated by having Trump be in office, not sure I can help you. I think it's more Trump supporters do understand, and either don't care, or share the same views.

I think the gerrymandering you brought up is a great point. I'm of the general opinion that redistricting needs some serious reform. I still hate what they're doing, even if I give them a complete pass on racism charges. At best they are trying to solidify political power. I looked into it a little and thought this was a decent opposition from a conservative perspective. As best I can describe, redistricting these two districts to include more democrats would produce the same results as redistricting to include more black people. A previous case ruled that the plaintiffs had to provide what an alternative non-racially drawn district map would like look to validate their claim that the district was racially drawn. They didn't do that in this case. Obviously I accept the ruling of the court, I just thought it an interesting read to hear the other perspective. Check out Justice Alito's response too if you have the time.

My point is that something like this case is a big deal. We should be focusing on this and others like it, but we don't because the overused charge of racism dilutes the case.

As for the second half of your post. I really don't want to defend Trump on the bad things he has done, like the birther thing or keeping Senecal around. However, I don't think it's fair to judge a potential president by the people that endorse him. And it is definitely not right to generalize his supporters as not caring about all of these things. Isn't it possible that we weighed all the bad things about Trump, and still voted for him even though we don't support those bad things?

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #165 on: December 06, 2017, 05:48:01 PM »
Provides links of literally 50+ examples of how women are worse off under Trump.

"Well, look man, these policies aren't TARGETING WOMEN SPECIFICALLY."

Like, how am I supposed to have an honest debate here? Of course Trump isn't going to sign into law a bill that says women can only earn $20/hour. It's not going to be explicit. But there's at least 100 examples (probably more for those with more time to Google) of women being worse off, losing rights, etc.  Just because none are an explicit target doesn't mean the whole picture isn't worth viewing.

Honestly, how am I supposed to have this discussion?  Every point gets explained away because it's not explicit.
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snapperdude

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #166 on: December 07, 2017, 06:46:44 AM »
nothing is proven yet.

I'm assuming that you don't consider multiple people pleading guilty to felony charges as proof of anything illegal happening?

You literally cut my quote down to that one snippet.

I had been on the fence but I'm adding Sol to the ignore list...

Sol, are you going to be okay? Remember, there are hotlines to help you deal with life's devastating moments.

TexasRunner

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #167 on: December 07, 2017, 07:25:53 AM »
And you guys wonder why its so hard for people like OP who are genuinely curious to get actual responses.

I'm out.
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TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #168 on: December 07, 2017, 10:20:43 AM »

Honestly, I did see a grudging respect of HRC from a very few of the older guard of the Republicans. The ones who never endorsed Trump, and the very few who even said they were voting for Clinton. (Including George HW Bush.)

On the other side: I'm sorry, but I don't see the inability of Democrats to have grudging respect for Trump as anything to call them out for. He is not worthy of it.

Oh agreed, Trump is total garbage and that's cool.  But Romney, McCain, and Bush got the same treatment as Trump did, that's my point.  Right Now!  Finally! The opposition candidate deserves the treatment, but the power of treating someone that way, the impact that has, was all pissed away.  The very first time you dump coffee on someone and walk out of the meeting, that has an impact.  The very first time you end a conversation and leave the room because your opponent is unworthy of further engagement, that has an impact.

Democrats have been throwing up their hands and leaving the room for 16 years now.  There are people driving now who were not alive to see Bill Clinton testifying about something that should never have been out there for public consumption, to see a blatantly politically motivated sex scandal disrupt the highest levels of government.  The next election will see people vote who didn't see how the war started, who don't know the history, and who do not care about it (because it isn't relevant anymore).

Being disrespectful isn't acceptable.  Full stop.  Justifying that behavior "because reasons" is whataboutism.  A five year old learns this, it doesn't matter what that other kid did to you, YOU are judged based on YOUR actions and what comes out of YOUR mouth.  I can have compassion for when you've been treated badly, I can have compassion for when your emotions run high, but as I'm injecting the needle to execute a criminal I'm not hurling slurs at him.  Prisoners are addressed by title, the scum of the earth accused are accorded a basic dignity.  You can't sling mud without getting down there with the pigs, and you are de-facto a pig at that point.

A huge criticism of Trump, and rightly so, John Oliver put it very well, is whataboutism.  But there's an element to that criticism that is entirely disingenuous.  When Barack Obama was massively abusing the power of the executive office "because congress wouldn't do it" there were those of us screaming that it wasn't OK to do that, and that we'd all regret it.  And Democrats came back at us with two arguments, the default: Stop being racist, and the other: well what about when George W. did this, you didn't mind then?

And we were screaming:  WE DID MIND THEN!  I said when BO abused his power to create the net neutrality rules that we would all regret it when the next president came up, because then undoing it would be so easy, and here we are.  It matters how you do things.  In most cases it matters just as much as what you are doing.  I was apoplectic at George W using "national security" as justification for all sorts of bullshit executive power grabs.  And then BO came in and didn't immediately undo all of those orders, or limit executive power by making those types of orders illegal, which he specifically campaigned on!  He fucking re-issued like fifty of them! It was day two or some shit.

The GOP establishment is being disrupted by the backlash from using whataboutism to defend reprehensible tactics.  People are pissed about how badly congress is doing.  Democrats started the shenanigans with the passage of the ACA, but Republicans using that as an excuse to do the exact same shit for 7 years was not OK.

Likewise, Democrats completely failing to acknowledge that their ideology is at least as divisive as Trump's because of "what about Trump" is not OK.  It doesn't matter that the other guy is worse.  You still have to be good.  Better than them isn't good enough, not when them has clearly decided to give no fucks.

There are mirror-image pathologies playing out here, and unfortunately there is not a path forward anymore that includes throwing up your hands and walking away.  The first group to sit down at the table and act like an adult, however justified they may be in throwing a tantrum and leaving, the first group to genuinely abandon whataboutism, will be at a huge advantage with the electorate.  And you should be scared shitless that it appears to be Republicans in Congress and that it appears to be about taxes.  Democrats are about to miss the fucking train.  Everyone's been tearing their hair out during the most horrible musical chairs dance ever played, the music just stopped and most of the seats are full.  Clothes have been pulled straight and spittle wiped from mouths.  A decision was made to declare victory and move on.  Their is a huge strategic advantage in both sides agreeing to ignore what happened before, lock the chaos away, and move on.  No actual winning was done.  Neither side won.  Both houses burned to the ground.  It will stay that way forever if either side keeps starting fires.  It will never get better until both sides stop.  Trying to get so much power that there's no fight anymore was a fool's errand.  The job is not to make there be no fight, the job is to fight the fight well.

Trump is an opportunity for Congress to sieze back control of everything they've allowed, through their own dysfunction, to fall to the executive.

Once upon a time, Republicans in the House viewed Democrats in the House as the opposition, and the Senate as the enemy.

That's how compromise was possible.  Right now there's this brief window, and it is rapidly closing, where right and left can come together in opposition to Trump, and restore limits on executive power, bring rationality to budgeting and taxation, and focus on things that are both within the purview of the government to fix, and that need to be fixed.

Or we can keep blaming each other, and thinking of Trump voters as a problem for America.

It is somewhat wickedly awesome that Republicans can propose a bill, Democrats oppose it for several reasons, and the President tweet something out that makes obvious 1.  He doesn't know what is going on, 2.  He's a raving lunatic, and 3.  He probably doesn't really care.  It lets the Congress work it out like they're supposed to, as both parties realize they're on their own for the midterms, party unity isn't a thing that's going to be possible, and we're going to have to defend this to our voters, because we won't have the money to win re-election any other way.

For the first time in my life, the President of the United States can be ignored.

Fuckin' wish I had voted for him.  Greatest President in History.
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Kris

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #169 on: December 07, 2017, 10:33:51 AM »
We'll have to agree to disagree on Dems' treatment of Romney, McCain and Bush.



For the first time in my life, the President of the United States can be ignored.


Not exactly.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/sources-tillerson-mattis-opposed-embassy-move-trump-jerusalem-israel/

Last sentence of this article... in The American Conservative:

“Pay attention: this is what it feels like to live in a nation whose moment has passed.”
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #170 on: December 07, 2017, 10:58:56 AM »
For the first time in my life, the President of the United States can be ignored.

Fuckin' wish I had voted for him.  Greatest President in History.

I'm confused.  You think Trump is the greatest President in history because he's so bad at the job?  You think abdicating world leadership is good for America?

Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #171 on: December 07, 2017, 12:19:33 PM »
Provides links of literally 50+ examples of how women are worse off under Trump.

"Well, look man, these policies aren't TARGETING WOMEN SPECIFICALLY."

Like, how am I supposed to have an honest debate here? Of course Trump isn't going to sign into law a bill that says women can only earn $20/hour. It's not going to be explicit. But there's at least 100 examples (probably more for those with more time to Google) of women being worse off, losing rights, etc.  Just because none are an explicit target doesn't mean the whole picture isn't worth viewing.

Honestly, how am I supposed to have this discussion?  Every point gets explained away because it's not explicit.

To be fair, much of your argument consists of (1) here is a progressive policy I like, (2) it's being rolled back, which I think is bad (or in one case, just not being moved forward beyond the current state of the law); (3) many people are women, therefore Trump is bad for women.  And of those parts of your argument, much of what you referenced are regulatory and administrative burdens.  There are probably some people who benefit from them.  There are definitely people who are harmed by them.  You assume the cost benefit analysis you didn't do is superior to the cost benefit analysis which someone else may have done. 

And then there's the old standby of equating not subsidizing something (whether through tax and transfer or simply a mandate) with denying access to something. 


Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #172 on: December 07, 2017, 12:25:37 PM »
We'll have to agree to disagree on Dems' treatment of Romney, McCain and Bush.



For the first time in my life, the President of the United States can be ignored.


Not exactly.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/sources-tillerson-mattis-opposed-embassy-move-trump-jerusalem-israel/

Last sentence of this article... in The American Conservative:

“Pay attention: this is what it feels like to live in a nation whose moment has passed.”

Out of curiosity, is there another country in the world that you don't think we should recognize what they claim as their capital? 

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #173 on: December 07, 2017, 12:27:04 PM »
You assume the cost benefit analysis you didn't do is superior to the cost benefit analysis which someone else may have done. 

Sure, this is the same calculus women in Alabama have made regarding Roy Moore.  "Well, one the one hand he appears to have a long history of sexual assault against underaged girls, but on the other hand he also really REALLY believes that I shouldn't be allowed to make decisions about my own body, so I guess I have to vote for him anyway?"

I predict Roy Moore will be a Senator.  He'll win his election, and then Republican leadership will decide against any sort of ethics investigation, much less expelling him from the Senate like originally promised. 

And I think they'll use the same defense Kelly Ann and Sarah Huck-Sand use about Trump's sexual assault allegations, "this was litigated by the American people and he's innocent because he was elected."  NO!  The electorate cannot determine criminal guilt or innocence!  Do you not understand how criminal justice works?

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #174 on: December 07, 2017, 12:34:18 PM »
We'll have to agree to disagree on Dems' treatment of Romney, McCain and Bush.



For the first time in my life, the President of the United States can be ignored.


Not exactly.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/sources-tillerson-mattis-opposed-embassy-move-trump-jerusalem-israel/

Last sentence of this article... in The American Conservative:

“Pay attention: this is what it feels like to live in a nation whose moment has passed.”

Out of curiosity, is there another country in the world that you don't think we should recognize what they claim as their capital?

To be fair, there aren't too many places in the world where a capital city is claimed by two countries.

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #175 on: December 07, 2017, 12:36:45 PM »
To be fair, there aren't too many places in the world where a capital city is claimed by two countries.

Hrmmmm, not so sure about that.  Capitals get disputed all the time, for all kinds of reasons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_multiple_capitals

zoltani

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #176 on: December 07, 2017, 12:41:36 PM »
You assume the cost benefit analysis you didn't do is superior to the cost benefit analysis which someone else may have done. 

Sure, this is the same calculus women in Alabama have made regarding Roy Moore.  "Well, one the one hand he appears to have a long history of sexual assault against underaged girls, but on the other hand he also really REALLY believes that I shouldn't be allowed to make decisions about my own body, so I guess I have to vote for him anyway?"

I predict Roy Moore will be a Senator.  He'll win his election, and then Republican leadership will decide against any sort of ethics investigation, much less expelling him from the Senate like originally promised. 

And I think they'll use the same defense Kelly Ann and Sarah Huck-Sand use about Trump's sexual assault allegations, "this was litigated by the American people and he's innocent because he was elected."  NO!  The electorate cannot determine criminal guilt or innocence!  Do you not understand how criminal justice works?

Is that an actual quote from "women in Alabama"?
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sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #177 on: December 07, 2017, 12:47:42 PM »
Is that an actual quote from "women in Alabama"?

Of course it is.  I went to Alabama and interviewed every woman in the state and they all gave me that exact answer.

Also, CNN agrees with me.  Moore enjoyed majority support among white Alabama women both before and after the revelations of his predatory behavior, and they generally cite his position on abortion as the reason why.  This is exactly why the Moore campaign has aired so many ads trying to paint his democratic opponent as a "baby killer".

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #178 on: December 07, 2017, 12:51:02 PM »
We'll have to agree to disagree on Dems' treatment of Romney, McCain and Bush.



For the first time in my life, the President of the United States can be ignored.


Not exactly.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/sources-tillerson-mattis-opposed-embassy-move-trump-jerusalem-israel/

Last sentence of this article... in The American Conservative:

“Pay attention: this is what it feels like to live in a nation whose moment has passed.”

Out of curiosity, is there another country in the world that you don't think we should recognize what they claim as their capital?

You do realize that Israel is a unique situation, yes?

And you did read the article and learn that the president's own Secretary of State and Secretary of Defense have said this is a really bad idea, right?

It is a bad idea for many, many reasons.

This will basically kill any hope for a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian problem. Admittedly, this was never going to go anywhere anyway in the current climate with Netenyahu as prime minister, so frankly that is the least of the worries. But:

It will put American citizens who work at the embassy in danger. This was the main reason for the embassy being in Tel Aviv until now.

This move will further incite Iran and Islamist militants against both the U.S. and Israel, almost certainly leading to more terrorist violence in Israel and the U.S.

The shaky steps that Saudi Arabia and Israel have been taking to form a partnership against the threat posed by Iran is likely to disintegrate. So Iran will be more dangerous in the region as a result.

The U.S. further isolates itself from its European allies with this move. We will be the only country in the world with an embassy in Jerusalem. We are basically removing ourselves as the leader of anything in this situation. Or indeed, as the leader of anything at all on the world stage.

We will now be seen by even our allies in the Middle East as provoking Muslims.

And for what? So that Trump can make his base of evangelical Christians and a small percentage of very right-wing Jewish Republicans happy. That's all it is. It's pathetic. Sad, pathetic, and with consequences that will negatively impact a whole lot of people and the future of any positive influence we can have on the world stage.

EDITED TO add:

Apparently, President Trump did not "fully understand" how colossally fucking stupid this decision was:

http://deadstate.org/white-house-sources-say-trump-did-not-fully-understand-implications-of-his-jerusalem-decision/

LOL yeah, no shit.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 02:15:47 PM by Kris »
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

zoltani

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #179 on: December 07, 2017, 12:52:29 PM »
Damn dude, you get around. That must have taken a long time. Thanks for your dedication.
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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #180 on: December 07, 2017, 01:09:00 PM »
And you guys wonder why its so hard for people like OP who are genuinely curious to get actual responses.

I'm out.

Let's be honest, it's naive to expect any actual sensible arguments. You get the standard answers like "he drained the swamp" except he didn't. Or they "support his policies," which of course have either not been passed or he has done a complete 180 on them. Heck one poster even went on a tirade about being called racist when no one even brought race into the discussion.

I believe a more valid question, as I believe one poster actually claimed to ignore the racism, is how nearly a year into his policy one can still support Trump while casually hand waving away the blatant racism, xenophobia, sexism, and now his vocal support for a child molester? Of course I expect not one single sensible answer as well, because there are no sensible answers? It reminds of the saying "you can't make sense of nonsense."

And Let's be honest about his policies. Many of them are purposefully meant to further oppress ethnic and racial minorities. So claiming you can ignore race while still supporting his policies quite frankly, is contradictory.

Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #181 on: December 07, 2017, 01:55:33 PM »
You assume the cost benefit analysis you didn't do is superior to the cost benefit analysis which someone else may have done. 

Sure, this is the same calculus women in Alabama have made regarding Roy Moore.  "Well, one the one hand he appears to have a long history of sexual assault against underaged girls, but on the other hand he also really REALLY believes that I shouldn't be allowed to make decisions about my own body, so I guess I have to vote for him anyway?"

I predict Roy Moore will be a Senator.  He'll win his election, and then Republican leadership will decide against any sort of ethics investigation, much less expelling him from the Senate like originally promised. 

I'm curious, are you really ignorant of the breakdown of views on abortion between genders and party affiliation?  That would seem like an incredible lack of curiosity to rant about it so much without ever thinking to ask, I wonder if women really are as monolithic as I think they are on the issue of abortion?  But it also seems like an incredible choice to choose to portray yourself as ignorant on the issue. 

Wexler

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #182 on: December 07, 2017, 02:15:04 PM »
Some of these answers were interesting, as was the breakdown

1. Trump sucks, but he's not a baby killer: we got a little of this, but not as much as I expected because, tbh, this is a rationale that has internally consistent logic, and I would think would be the first refuge of embarrassed Trump voters

2. Wake up sheeple! I voted third party: we got some of this, too.  About as much as I'd expect from a group of college educated high earners who are more likely libertarians

3. KILLARY: about as much of this as I expected (also featured in the responses in point 2 above)

4. Lulz, liberal tearzz: way more than I expected, but this may be because this group skews heavily towards the reddit user base

5. Obama is the real racist: also way more than I expected.  This is the most interesting to me, because I bet some of these people voted for Obama in 2008. I've been probing about what they meant by this, but haven't really gotten any deeper thoughts

6. Gas up the jet, Poppy-Ann and Mitt are expecting us:  Also surprising to me how few seemed to be wealth motivated Trump voters.  This is a wealthy group, but-by and large-the wealthier MMMers come across as liberal.  I think that this would be different on the Bogle boards.  Our higher earning members seem to be mostly dual income wage earners from the coasts

7. Democrats hate our troops! Thank god we have a real patriotic American president who doesn't apologize for America being the best: about as much as I expected.  This is a common sentiment of base voters I am guessing, but not so much in MMM world


TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #183 on: December 07, 2017, 02:42:05 PM »
For the first time in my life, the President of the United States can be ignored.

Fuckin' wish I had voted for him.  Greatest President in History.

I'm confused.  You think Trump is the greatest President in history because he's so bad at the job?  You think abdicating world leadership is good for America?

First off:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Embassy_Act

It ought to change the conversation that he's enforcing a law that was on the fucking books.  Our government just doesn't work.  That's insane.  Congress passes a law in 1995, 4 presidents just straight up don't bother, one finally does, and he's a lunatic because of it and it's somehow his fault.  *facepalm*

I think setting the individual holding the office of the president up as the representative of the U.S on the world stage was a catastrophically stupid thing to do in the first place.  We have ambassadors, we have the state department, there's no reason for a figurehead and every President that ever acted that way should have been ritually eviscerated at the voting booth.

I think if abdicating world leadership is something to be worried about, the ship sailed a long time ago.  I don't think Trump is smart enough to understand what he did, but the sentiments of american foreign policy supported by BO and the fears expressed at this Trump action reek of appeasement.  Israel is a nation under siege.  Go study the history of the actual people living within the borders of that country, read the actual language of the various treaties and agreements and cease-fires, put yourself in the place of someone who lives there, perform the thought-experiment.  There is literally nothing we can do there to make the situation better or worse short of an outright invasion or making them the 51st state.  That whole part of the world is totally fucked, and the end-game involves the total annihilation of Israel by its neighbors, in an outright act of aggression by the Arab world, motivated solely by a hateful, racist ideology.

If appeasement worked, I'd call for the full evacuation of every non-Palestinian from Israel and surrendering the country, then I'd give the Israeli's some part of New Mexico we aren't using and enjoy the tax revenue.  But it doesn't.  They hate us over there, they hate us over here, the Islamic world is overwhelmingly extremist, racist, and violent, toward us and anyone who thinks like us.  It is a religion of violence, and anyone who claims otherwise has not read their book.  Israel defends itself by defeating every invasion thoroughly and completely.  And the longer the Arab world insists that no compromise is possible, the less anything but full throated support of Israel is defensible.  I personally feel like the rejection of the two state proposal and aggressive war by virtually every neighboring state and the Palestinians in 1947 was the end of it.  They decided to stop talking and fight it out, Israel won, and anybody who says anything to the Palestinians besides "get over it" is doing them a huge disservice.  One major reason you don't go to war is that you might lose.  They lost.

I...that history, from 1920 to now, is 100 years of just...gah.  And I can't believe that Trump understands it.  So I can understand a knee-jerk objection to him just flailing around in one of the most dangerous areas of the world, but I'm not super worried it's going to lead to the end of America.  That's not any different from the over-reaction on the right from Obama's World Apology Tour.  Very little of our impact on the world comes from POTUS.  And this thing specifically?  Naw.  They'll be offended by our embassy placement?  Fuck them, they're offended by our very existence.  Why not, they should be worried about offending us?  Why is OK for them to behave that way?  Why can't they be expected to be nice to us?

Also...objections related to embassy security?  Really?  *shakes head* I thought that wasn't an important qualification for president, ya'all need to make up your mind.


It will put American citizens who work at the embassy in danger. This was the main reason for the embassy being in Tel Aviv until now.

The U.S. further isolates itself from its European allies with this move. We will be the only country in the world with an embassy in Jerusalem. We are basically removing ourselves as the leader of anything in this situation. Or indeed, as the leader of anything at all on the world stage.


There are 10 countries with diplomatic missions in Jerusalem already, including the U.S.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diplomatic_missions_in_Israel

These are not "embassies to Israel" or "embassies to Palestine" but rather "missions to Jerusalem."

It is a rhetorical difference not a practical one.  The objection is partisan, not borne of any actual understanding that the danger is higher.  Any American personnel in the arab world are at risk, all the time, because they hate us.  Our embassy in Tel Aviv wasn't safe, our embassy in Jerusalem isn't safe, and it's because they are racist, bigoted, violent, assholes.  The actual capital, the government of Israel is in Jerusalem, and it is stupid to attempt to appease anyone by calling our embassy there something else.  At least as stupid as calling it an embassy just because they would rather you didn't, but still stupid.

The crazy thing is that if the arab world decided to attack Israel over this you'd blame Trump.  Do you get that that is perverted thinking?

You walk through the park and if you get mugged it's the mugger's fault.  Stop blaming the victim.
Notice is turned in! 35 days until FIRE!  I am excited and at the same time terrified!
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RangerOne

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #184 on: December 07, 2017, 02:50:48 PM »
It was a pretty complicated decision, but I voted for Trump and don't regret it. These answers are just off the top of my head, but perhaps I could elaborate later.

1. With the rate premiums have been rising, I don't think the ACA is sustainable long-term so I have never seriously considered it a FIRE option (10 years off). I'm not well versed on the issue tbh, but I generally don't support the idea of forcing the purchase of health care. I believe people should be free to choose what is best for their lives.

2. The majority of taxpayers will pay less next year. I support the tax plan, even though I don't like the manner in which it was passed and the deficit increase. Get your spending under control, Government!

3. I'm skeptical of the notion that Trump campaign colluded with Russia to win the election. The most recent 'bombshell' ABC report about Flynn had to be corrected or erroneous reporting and the author was suspended for this behavior. I'll remain open to this when more facts come in. This is possibly something that could flip me for the next election.

4. To this day, I still say that one of the best executive orders was Trump's rollback of unnecessary regulation. I am not in the camp that more regulation = good. If someone could point out a specific one that causes harm, we can surely discuss.

5. I predict this will be the biggest test of his Presidency. I think it's really too early to tell.

6. Don't like it. D-

7. I'm not aware of any harm or potential harm to the environment that Trump has done.

8. Race relations have been degrading many years before Trump. I remember Obama talking if he had a son, he'd look like Travvon Martin. I remember the media lying about 'hands up don't shoot' concerning Michael Brown. The behavior of politics and media surrounding these two events flipped the direction of race relations. What has Trump done that's damaging?

9. What has Trump done that's damaging? What specific rights don't women have that they did during Obama's term?

With respect to actual concrete changes in the form of policy I am not surprised to find most of his supporters would have no major issues. Not much has been done one way or the other and most of it is in line with general Republican thinking.

With regards to what he has done to harm race relations I think a lot of that depends on how you view the media. I suspect that most people who are okay with Trump distrust the media more than they do Trump. Not a position I would take given his track record, but maybe that characterization is too black and white.

I fully sympathize and acknowledged that the 24 hour news cycle is full of a lot of bullshit. But news agency that lean right or left both equally spew bullshit so if you are more centrists you have to take reported facts for what they are and try to tune out the narrative they wrap them in. Major news orgs like Fox and CNN in their most basic reporting tend not to report blatant lies, though you may find the conclusions they draw laughable.

I think Trumps continual attacks on the media are doing great harm because the reality is the media is our only tool to hold politicians accountable for misleading us. It is not a coincidence that every country more corrupt than ours has state run media, see exhibit A, Russia. From that angle I think Trumps need to constantly tear down anyone who would challenge him with no respect for their core mandate is corrosive to our democracy. Though I would not carry this so far as worry that he will become a dictator. I just think it is the first step along the path to a more corrupt and less accountable government with a less powerful media.

Clearly you have noted some things said under Obama that left you feeling like he was overstepping and degrading race relations. That is fine. But transgressions by a previous president against your sense of what is overstepping do not excuse similar behavior from others. And at least half the country feels Trump regularly oversteps in his views on white nationalists and certain immigrant communities. Now you may find these statements to be true or funny, or not too big a deal. But consider that many felt the same way about the statements Obama made that may have bothered you.

Most would agree race relations have never been perfect in the US. I don't find Obama to be any kind of turning point except that he happened to be half black at a time when BLM became a thing.

Views on Mexican immigration have always been poor in this country. Frankly at times I fall into some of those negative views and I am freakin half mexican by blood. So I know that typical US culture doesn't breed people with a particularly good view of Mexican immigration.

The turning point against Muslims is easy to pin point, probably 9/11 for most of us. Before that sure certain religious groups like Israeli Jews hated them, but really most of the US were indifferent until they posed a physical threat. Isis and the refugee crises has understandably made this even worse.

But in most of these areas I feel like Trump is reinforcing the worst of the conservative narrative with regards to these three main groups. For you or others of a similar mind you may find it refreshing, and I am not saying we should bend to the extreme left on all things and grievances. But there are more rational voices that are center left and center right willing to compromise to alleviate the fears of both conservative and liberal constituents.

Trump is not one of those rational center right voices. His fuel derives from overselling fear and passion in his base on long standing grievances. I don't expect that to change as long as he is a public figure.

RangerOne

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #185 on: December 07, 2017, 03:26:20 PM »
[quote author=TheOldestYoungMan link=topic=82376.msg1799391#msg1799391
Anyone who can engage a smug liberal and walk away seemingly unfazed can win an election now, that's how intolerable that style is.  As it happens, yes, the Trump voter will forgive anything if their candidate can make you go apoplectic.
[/quote]

This is the real problem. Nearly all other considerations can be ignored if you can get down in the pit and fight.

We need politicians who can appeal to peoples rational side and find compromises that both win for their constituents, compromise, and work out problems without having to tear the other side down.

I am hopeful the pendulum will swing back towards moderation, but I suspect things will have to get worse before we have a chance of going back towards a more centrist political arena.

On our worst days most of us scan get smug. But on the job when you are trying to work on hard problems with people you don't fully agree with, there is zero room for smugness or arrogance. Shitting on your political opponents just forces the opposite reaction. But I guess the later is more news worthy.

zoltani

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #186 on: December 07, 2017, 03:45:06 PM »
My fear is that whoever the dems put forth in 2020 will lose because their campaign will focus on the fact that they are not trump. That and they'll play identity politics again.
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jrhampt

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #187 on: December 07, 2017, 03:56:00 PM »
My fear is that whoever the dems put forth in 2020 will lose because their campaign will focus on the fact that they are not trump. That and they'll play identity politics again.

Trump plays identity politics too, and it seems to work well for him.  The only difference is that he caters to the white male christian coal miner identity.

zoltani

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #188 on: December 07, 2017, 04:19:18 PM »
My fear is that whoever the dems put forth in 2020 will lose because their campaign will focus on the fact that they are not trump. That and they'll play identity politics again.

Trump plays identity politics too, and it seems to work well for him.  The only difference is that he caters to the white male christian coal miner identity.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Trump voters are _______! (Racist, sexist, bigots, white male Christian coal miners, etc)

Another example is a thread on here during the election in which the op wanted to know how to comfort her minority neighbors after another neighbor put up a trump sign in their yard. The op made so many assumptions about the identity of the trump supporter, their neighbors, their neighbors' views, their races, political views, all based on a sign. Everyone must fit neatly into their identity box. It's dichotomous thinking, and it's rampant right now, on both sides.
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Wexler

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #189 on: December 07, 2017, 05:21:50 PM »
My fear is that whoever the dems put forth in 2020 will lose because their campaign will focus on the fact that they are not trump. That and they'll play identity politics again.

Trump plays identity politics too, and it seems to work well for him.  The only difference is that he caters to the white male christian coal miner identity.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Trump voters are _______! (Racist, sexist, bigots, white male Christian coal miners, etc)

Another example is a thread on here during the election in which the op wanted to know how to comfort her minority neighbors after another neighbor put up a trump sign in their yard. The op made so many assumptions about the identity of the trump supporter, their neighbors, their neighbors' views, their races, political views, all based on a sign. Everyone must fit neatly into their identity box. It's dichotomous thinking, and it's rampant right now, on both sides.

Yeah, but thinking identity politics is bad is different than pointing out that it works or doesn't work.  I think lying is bad, but it works in politics.

I'm also not totally sold on the idea that conservatives are made because liberals are mean and smug.  If we were nicer to Trump voters, I don't think any of you would vote any differently.  Trump is an asshole, and it didn't matter to his voters at all.  He was their asshole, and he was an asshole to the people they hate.  So, I think it's pretty self-serving of Trump voters to suddenly be so victimized because liberals are mean.  So what if we don't invite you around anymore?  You think we suck. 

 

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #190 on: December 07, 2017, 06:40:07 PM »
My fear is that whoever the dems put forth in 2020 will lose because their campaign will focus on the fact that they are not trump. That and they'll play identity politics again.
The Dems behave as if they have absolutely no political vision to express and instead want to convert technocratic mumbling and cynical identity politics into victory. Along with her baggage (much of it contrived by political opponents), lack of big-picture thinking was a major problem with Hillary's campaign. Trump's political vision--though it often resembles a Mel Gibson acid trip--at least enables him to create a compelling narrative about how he would lead instead of merely legislate.

bacchi

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #191 on: December 07, 2017, 07:56:29 PM »
My fear is that whoever the dems put forth in 2020 will lose because their campaign will focus on the fact that they are not trump. That and they'll play identity politics again.
The Dems behave as if they have absolutely no political vision to express and instead want to convert technocratic mumbling and cynical identity politics into victory. Along with her baggage (much of it contrived by political opponents), lack of big-picture thinking was a major problem with Hillary's campaign. Trump's political vision--though it often resembles a Mel Gibson acid trip--at least enables him to create a compelling narrative about how he would lead instead of merely legislate.

She lost because typical Democratic voters didn't turn out. Look at Michigan. Those voters didn't turn to Trump because he had a more inspiring vision. They simply didn't show up at the polls.

If the Dem voters have a reason to vote -- and voting "not Trump" might be enough -- they could win. Virginia is a good example of this.

Dabnasty

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #192 on: December 07, 2017, 09:56:59 PM »
My fear is that whoever the dems put forth in 2020 will lose because their campaign will focus on the fact that they are not trump. That and they'll play identity politics again.

Trump plays identity politics too, and it seems to work well for him.  The only difference is that he caters to the white male christian coal miner identity.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Trump voters are _______! (Racist, sexist, bigots, white male Christian coal miners, etc)

Another example is a thread on here during the election in which the op wanted to know how to comfort her minority neighbors after another neighbor put up a trump sign in their yard. The op made so many assumptions about the identity of the trump supporter, their neighbors, their neighbors' views, their races, political views, all based on a sign. Everyone must fit neatly into their identity box. It's dichotomous thinking, and it's rampant right now, on both sides.

I don't think this comment says that all people who voted for Trump are ______, It says that he catered to that group. Would you dispute that? And based on statistics it worked out for him - white male Christians vote. Obviously lots of women and other races voted for him as well but who voted isn't the point, it's how identity is used by a candidate/party.

accolay

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #193 on: December 07, 2017, 10:31:02 PM »
First off:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Embassy_Act

It ought to change the conversation that he's enforcing a law that was on the fucking books.  Our government just doesn't work.  That's insane.  Congress passes a law in 1995, 4 presidents just straight up don't bother, one finally does, and he's a lunatic because of it and it's somehow his fault.  *facepalm*

1. If you don't understand why moving the US embassy to Jerusalem is a bad idea, then I can't help you. Trump is not enforcing a law, he is only attempting to pander to a certain group by this move, and does not understand the implications of doing so.
2. It was the last three presidents who deferred from moving the embassy: Clinton, Bush, Obama.
3. You should also really read your own source:
Quote
From 1998 to June 2017, the relocation of the embassy from Tel Aviv was suspended by the sitting President semi-annually based on national security concerns as provided for in section 7 of the Act.
If that makes me a smug liberal to point that out... well... I'd rather be a smart ass than a dumb ass.


lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #194 on: December 07, 2017, 10:48:54 PM »
First off:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Embassy_Act

It ought to change the conversation that he's enforcing a law that was on the fucking books.  Our government just doesn't work.  That's insane.  Congress passes a law in 1995, 4 presidents just straight up don't bother, one finally does, and he's a lunatic because of it and it's somehow his fault.  *facepalm*

1. If you don't understand why moving the US embassy to Jerusalem is a bad idea, then I can't help you. Trump is not enforcing a law, he is only attempting to pander to a certain group by this move, and does not understand the implications of doing so.
2. It was the last three presidents who deferred from moving the embassy: Clinton, Bush, Obama.
3. You should also really read your own source:
Quote
From 1998 to June 2017, the relocation of the embassy from Tel Aviv was suspended by the sitting President semi-annually based on national security concerns as provided for in section 7 of the Act.
If that makes me a smug liberal to point that out... well... I'd rather be a smart ass than a dumb ass.
I'm unconvinced it's a bad idea because, really, how successful were Clinton, Bush, Obama at securing a resolution to the Israeli/Palestinian situation? I forget the word for doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result...

I agree that Trump's motivations are probably not enlightened with respect to the decision but that doesn't necessarily mean the decision is a bad one; here's an excerpt:

Yet there is one possible silver lining to the coming storm -- a consequence of the decision that may affect the calculus of the peace process more positively. Trump, intentionally or not, is signaling to all concerned that he is unafraid of backing Israel in ways that go further than the traditional pro-Israel U.S. stance.

That’s a huge threat to the Palestinians -- if peace talks fail, Trump could be prepared to support Israeli annexation of more of the West Bank. And it’s an implicit promise to the Israelis that also contains an implicit threat: Given how generous Trump is being to Israel, its leaders had better agree to whatever deal Trump will seek to impose on them -- or else.

accolay

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #195 on: December 07, 2017, 11:05:28 PM »
That’s a huge threat to the Palestinians -- if peace talks fail, Trump could be prepared to support Israeli annexation of more of the West Bank. And it’s an implicit promise to the Israelis that also contains an implicit threat: Given how generous Trump is being to Israel, its leaders had better agree to whatever deal Trump will seek to impose on them -- or else.[/i]

So Clinton, Bush, Obama... and every president since the '40s didn't solve Middle East peace, so we should just take a shit on this?  Or else what? Will more dead military make America great again?

I'm sure organizations that include suicide bombers are really worried about what a Trump deal means for them.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #196 on: December 07, 2017, 11:13:34 PM »
That’s a huge threat to the Palestinians -- if peace talks fail, Trump could be prepared to support Israeli annexation of more of the West Bank. And it’s an implicit promise to the Israelis that also contains an implicit threat: Given how generous Trump is being to Israel, its leaders had better agree to whatever deal Trump will seek to impose on them -- or else.[/i]

So Clinton, Bush, Obama... and every president since the '40s didn't solve Middle East peace, so we should just take a shit on this?  Or else what? Will more dead military make America great again?

I'm sure organizations that include suicide bombers are really worried about what a Trump deal means for them.
I don't think I parsed the point you're making (what Americans are dying in Israel or Palestine?) but here is a more extreme position which was an enjoyable read.

accolay

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #197 on: December 07, 2017, 11:29:40 PM »
I don't think I parsed the point you're making (what Americans are dying in Israel or Palestine?) but here is a more extreme position which was an enjoyable read.

I was referring to the "or else."  Are we going to invade Palestine? Shore up Isreal's defenses with our troops?

I'd ask what the plan is, but let's be honest: there is no plan. This guy and his staff are in way over their heads.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #198 on: December 07, 2017, 11:45:38 PM »
I don't think I parsed the point you're making (what Americans are dying in Israel or Palestine?) but here is a more extreme position which was an enjoyable read.

I was referring to the "or else."  Are we going to invade Palestine? Shore up Isreal's defenses with our troops?

I'd ask what the plan is, but let's be honest: there is no plan. This guy and his staff are in way over their heads.
Well if you followed the link, that is explained:

The basis for the secret threat to Netanyahu will have to be that, as the most nakedly pro-Israel president ever, Trump has the clout to blame Netanyahu if he is truly responsible for the breakdown of the deal. Trump can say what no other president could: that the world, including pro-Israel American Jews, will believe him if he says Netanyahu is the problem and that he should no longer be prime minister. Trump could even credibly threaten that U.S. support for Israel would be substantially reduced in the future if Netanyahu blinks.

accolay

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #199 on: December 08, 2017, 01:08:21 AM »
Well if you followed the link, that is explained:

The basis for the secret threat to Netanyahu will have to be that, as the most nakedly pro-Israel president ever, Trump has the clout to blame Netanyahu if he is truly responsible for the breakdown of the deal. Trump can say what no other president could: that the world, including pro-Israel American Jews, will believe him if he says Netanyahu is the problem and that he should no longer be prime minister. Trump could even credibly threaten that U.S. support for Israel would be substantially reduced in the future if Netanyahu blinks.

Kindly fix your link for the story in question.