Author Topic: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?  (Read 110221 times)

Peter Parker

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Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« on: December 02, 2017, 03:51:45 PM »
It's an honest question.  I'm really curious as to whether anyone voted republican and now regrets it because:

1.  Gutting of ACA and how it effects your FIRE plans...
2.  The republican tax plan
3.  Trump/Russia
4.  Less consumer protection (deregulation)
5.  Korea
6.  General lack of decorum
7.  Environmental issues/climate change issues
8.  Racial/religious (Muslim) tensions
9.  Women's rights/issues

I'm actually curious.  And I'm wondering if you will vote differently next time?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 05:01:10 PM by Peter Parker »

jinga nation

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2017, 04:54:38 PM »
aka Trumpgret

aaahhrealmarcus

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2017, 05:26:30 PM »
I held my nose (literally) and voted for the lesser evil, but I know plenty of people who thought they'd be cute and write in the names of fictional characters, who are now freaking out about losing Net Neutrality.

FINate

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2017, 05:55:16 PM »
I'm a moderate independent in California, a state that leans so far to the left that I usually end up voting Republican. I voted 3rd party because of items 6-9 on your list.

That said, I'm already FIRE and not a fan of the ACA. I make full use of the premium subsidies, but find it silly that I'm getting over $10k/year from the government essentially for prepaid healthcare that I don't want (nor do I use it). I would much rather have a high deductible catastrophic plan and pay out of pocket for most things...you know...actual insurance. In short, I'm not worried about it.

The tax plan as passed in the Senate looks pretty good. Our corporate tax rates are too high as compared to other OECD countries. Despite appealing to populism, corporate taxes don't generally stick it to the man. Depending on the elasticity of supply/demand the burden falls to a different degree on different groups. And the move from a global to a territorial tax regime for corporations also puts us in line with other industrialized nations and will put a stop to "corporate inversions." My kids go to public school, but I think the tax deduction for private school tuition is fair - a lot of middle class families send their kids to private school, this will be of some help. The  whining about capping deductions for state taxes I find quite humorous. The cap is $10k which in California means that the property tax valuation is near $1 million or greater. It's a tax on rich people, I thought the Dems were in favor of such taxes? Or only when it affects someone else? Same for the taxes on rich university endowments. 

Trump/Russia - we'll see where the investigation goes and what comes of it. If they find a smoking gun I'm fine with him getting booted. Part of me can't help but hearken back to Clinton/China (Chinagate) of the 1990s. 
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 05:57:29 PM by FINate »

jrhampt

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2017, 07:29:22 PM »
 Just a note on property taxes… My property taxes yearly are around $10,000. That includes two older vehicles and a house worth a little over 200,000, and I expect this tax will only increase.   So I am glad they didn't get rid of the property tax deduction all together, but I can see how you could have a reasonable house and exceed the cap Depending upon where you live. I see this more as a tax on people in blue states with high property taxes than as a tax on rich people. 
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 07:36:56 AM by jrhampt »

FINate

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2017, 07:36:21 PM »
What state?

jrhampt

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2017, 07:49:09 PM »
Connecticut

cliffhanger

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2017, 10:17:26 PM »
It was a pretty complicated decision, but I voted for Trump and don't regret it. These answers are just off the top of my head, but perhaps I could elaborate later.

1. With the rate premiums have been rising, I don't think the ACA is sustainable long-term so I have never seriously considered it a FIRE option (10 years off). I'm not well versed on the issue tbh, but I generally don't support the idea of forcing the purchase of health care. I believe people should be free to choose what is best for their lives.

2. The majority of taxpayers will pay less next year. I support the tax plan, even though I don't like the manner in which it was passed and the deficit increase. Get your spending under control, Government!

3. I'm skeptical of the notion that Trump campaign colluded with Russia to win the election. The most recent 'bombshell' ABC report about Flynn had to be corrected or erroneous reporting and the author was suspended for this behavior. I'll remain open to this when more facts come in. This is possibly something that could flip me for the next election.

4. To this day, I still say that one of the best executive orders was Trump's rollback of unnecessary regulation. I am not in the camp that more regulation = good. If someone could point out a specific one that causes harm, we can surely discuss.

5. I predict this will be the biggest test of his Presidency. I think it's really too early to tell.

6. Don't like it. D-

7. I'm not aware of any harm or potential harm to the environment that Trump has done.

8. Race relations have been degrading many years before Trump. I remember Obama talking if he had a son, he'd look like Travvon Martin. I remember the media lying about 'hands up don't shoot' concerning Michael Brown. The behavior of politics and media surrounding these two events flipped the direction of race relations. What has Trump done that's damaging?

9. What has Trump done that's damaging? What specific rights don't women have that they did during Obama's term?

vern

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2017, 11:16:56 PM »
I'm an independent voter.  Until last year I'd always voted third party in the presidential elections.  Usually Libertarian, but I threw two in for Perot back in the 90's.

This last election cycle my two favorite candidates were Trump and Bernie Sanders.  I liked them because they were such outsiders and it was hilarious to see all of the contortions their party's went into to try and deny them the nomination.  The republicans tried to stop Trump above the board, and we now know that the democrats stopped Bernie with some underhanded backroom dealings.

So yes, I am an unrepentant thought criminal. But make no mistake about it...if Bernie had been running against an establishment republican like Jeb Bush, I would have voted for Sanders in a heartbeat!

Johnez

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2017, 12:01:13 AM »
Cliffhanger-with regards to #7, right off the bat I would say Keystone XL has turned into a major clusterfuck. What is it now, 200k gallons of oil leaked?
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 12:05:59 AM by Johnez »

davisgang90

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2017, 04:08:13 AM »
I regret that Republicans claim to be the party of smaller government, but the government never gets smaller, even when they have control. I certainly don't like everything about Trump, but it is entertaining.

I wish we had a viable 3rd party, but for now, I'll continue to vote Republican.

cliffhanger

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2017, 07:09:58 AM »
Cliffhanger-with regards to #7, right off the bat I would say Keystone XL has turned into a major clusterfuck. What is it now, 200k gallons of oil leaked?

I had to look it up, as I was unaware. Is this what you're talking about?

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/16/us/keystone-pipeline-leak/index.html

Just a minor correction: this appears to be the Keystone pipeline, not the Keystone XL that has been so controversial. It also appears that the leak was contained quickly, with no lasting damage done to waterways, etc. I don't see how the Trump administration can be blamed.

I'm not saying that it's ok that oil spills happen, but it's the reality of the imperfect world we live in until we can find alternative viable energy sources.

Peter Parker

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2017, 12:23:54 PM »
I appreciate everyone's responses thus far.  It has been a tumulterous time this past year, and I'm doing my best to try to "listen" to those who may a have a difference of opinion than mine.  Perhaps most importantly, I'm trying to see if circumstances are not what you expected, does this change one's mind--or has politics become so "tribal" that there is never any room for such a change...

wenchsenior

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2017, 12:43:40 PM »
I appreciate everyone's responses thus far.  It has been a tumulterous time this past year, and I'm doing my best to try to "listen" to those who may a have a difference of opinion than mine.  Perhaps most importantly, I'm trying to see if circumstances are not what you expected, does this change one's mind--or has politics become so "tribal" that there is never any room for such a change...

My father voted for Trump and is now agitating to have him impeached.  I don't quite understand why he voted for him in the first place, except he is susceptible to fear-mongering and likes dick swinging authority figures. Still, it was incredibly apparent that Trump was a con artist BEFORE the election.  However, for whatever reason my father (who subscribes to the weird idea that businessmen are better than all other people and should thus also be the best politicians) bought what Trump was selling, but then came to his senses just a few months after the election and was all, OMG, this guy is a lying, incompetent, nutjob!  And he's pissed off at himself for falling for the sales pitch. So that's progress, I guess.  Most people can't bring themselves to admit when they've been duped.

abner

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2017, 03:41:54 PM »
Have no regret whatsoever.

Could Trump do better....absolutely.
But all previous presidents could have done better also.

Luck12

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2017, 04:03:57 PM »

1. With the rate premiums have been rising, I don't think the ACA is sustainable long-term so I have never seriously considered it a FIRE option (10 years off). I'm not well versed on the issue tbh, but I generally don't support the idea of forcing the purchase of health care. I believe people should be free to choose what is best for their lives.

First of all, one can always just pay the penalty.  Second, that "forcing the purchase" is one of the contributors to saving many lives each year (something that I know many sociopathic Republicans don't care about and yes, I've had conversations with a few on this so I know), helps to make insurance more affordable, etc. 

4. To this day, I still say that one of the best executive orders was Trump's rollback of unnecessary regulation. I am not in the camp that more regulation = good. If someone could point out a specific one that causes harm, we can surely discuss. 

He hasn't gotten rid of the CFPB just yet, but they he/they want to get rid of it or at least significantly weaken it.  Guess what?  Bank of America fucked me over and the CFPB solved the problem which saved me hundreds of dollars and got rid of erroneous late payment on my credit report.   I called Bank of America and visited branches several times and each time got the brush off.  They didn't give a shit.  Thanks to CFPB, the little guy got his rightful justice. 


7. I'm not aware of any harm or potential harm to the environment that Trump has done.

Then you haven't done any research and I suspect you don't care. 

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/03/how-trump-is-changing-science-environment/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_policy_of_the_Donald_Trump_administration




OP, something like 80%+ of Republicans wouldn't care even if there was proof he colluded with the Russians.   Hell, Nixon still had much more than majority approval at the time of his resignation.  People, especially Republicans, are very tribal and it takes a lot for them to admit their mistakes. 

Trump was right:  He could shoot someone on 5th avenue and still be popular among his supporters. 
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 04:05:53 PM by Luck12 »

cliffhanger

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2017, 05:51:33 PM »

7. I'm not aware of any harm or potential harm to the environment that Trump has done.

Then you haven't done any research and I suspect you don't care. 

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/03/how-trump-is-changing-science-environment/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_policy_of_the_Donald_Trump_administration



We can address the facts surrounding a great number of topics, we can debate the consequences of all actions we can take, we can disagree on the politics of those issue. What we cannot do is attribute the worst motive to someone without evidence. I'll be happy to look through the links you provided. But if you'd actually like to have a discussion about it, then stop this bullcrap about me not caring.

surfhb

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2017, 07:52:32 PM »
I mean Cmon!   If I were at a party and someone was talking about "pussy grabby" and "moving on her", ect. and we all decided to go back to your place for an after party?    Would you invite the dickhead?    I'd like to hope not!   Much less vote for him for president.   Game over!    Your vote should have ended there

Thats just a small example......add backing out of the Paris accord and the lack of support for the people who were standing up to a white supremacist march, ect. 

Its mind boggling why any thinking individual would vote for this shitbag....this coming from someone who has voted GOP.

Doesnt matter.   He will not last 4 years and we will see the first American president removed from office.   I call it right now.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 07:56:01 PM by surfhb »

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2017, 08:31:37 PM »
Its mind boggling why any thinking individual would vote for this shitbag....this coming from someone who has voted GOP.

I don't find it that boggling, and I agree that he's a shitbag.

But people will actively hold their nose over a shitbag if it's THEIR shitbag.  They really hated that the last President wasn't white, and that white privilege has been in steady decline for decades, and that Trump has promised to reverse this trend.  They don't really care about anything else, including rampant sexual assault.  Collusion with the Russians wouldn't bother them.  Shuttering entire departments would be fine.  Nothing matters, up to and including gross incompetence played out on a national stage and encompassing the moral and political decline of America.  Because women belong in the home and Trump knows it!  Confederate flags celebrate our heritage as slave-owners, not slavery!  Global warming is a hoax!  Blue lives matter!

Lots of people subsist on a daily diet of this sort of misinformation.  It informs their worldview and it overrules any other evidence they might encounter, because the Fox News version of reality comes at them like a firehose 24/7 and nothing else can fit in their eye holes.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 09:14:43 PM by sol »

surfhb

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2017, 08:50:14 PM »
Its mind boggling why any thinking individual would vote for this shitbag....this coming from someone who has voted GOP.

I don't find it that boggling, and I agree that he's a shitbag.

But people will actively hold their nose over a shitbag if it's THEIR shitbag.  They really hated that the last President wasn't white, and that white privilege has been in steady decline for decades, and that Trump has promised to reverse this trend.  They don't really care about anything else, including rampant sexual assault.  Collusion with the Russians wouldn't bother them.  Shuttering entire departments would be fine.  Nothing matters, up to and including gross incompetence played out on a national stage and encompassing the moral and political decline of America.  Because women belong in the home and Trump knows it!  Confederate flags celebrate our heritage as slave-owners!  Global warming is a hoax!  Blue lives matter!

Lots of people subsist on a daily diet of this sort of misinformation.  It informs their worldview and it overrules any other evidence they might encounter, because the Fox News version of reality comes at them like a firehose 24/7 and nothing else can fit in their eye holes.

I agree..... In addition, lots of Americans live in a completely homogeneous  bubble within their communities. 

bwall

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2017, 09:17:03 PM »

But people will actively hold their nose over a shitbag if it's THEIR shitbag.  They really hated that the last President wasn't white, and that white privilege has been in steady decline for decades, and that Trump has promised to reverse this trend.  They don't really care about anything else, including rampant sexual assault.  Collusion with the Russians wouldn't bother them.  Shuttering entire departments would be fine.  Nothing matters, up to and including gross incompetence played out on a national stage and encompassing the moral and political decline of America.  Because women belong in the home and Trump knows it!  Confederate flags celebrate our heritage as slave-owners!  Global warming is a hoax!  Blue lives matter!

Lots of people subsist on a daily diet of this sort of misinformation.  It informs their worldview and it overrules any other evidence they might encounter, because the Fox News version of reality comes at them like a firehose 24/7 and nothing else can fit in their eye holes.

This is the most insightful and succinct post I have read all week. Depressing.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2017, 09:44:09 PM »
I appreciate everyone's responses thus far.  It has been a tumulterous time this past year, and I'm doing my best to try to "listen" to those who may a have a difference of opinion than mine.  Perhaps most importantly, I'm trying to see if circumstances are not what you expected, does this change one's mind--or has politics become so "tribal" that there is never any room for such a change...

My father voted for Trump and is now agitating to have him impeached.  I don't quite understand why he voted for him in the first place, except he is susceptible to fear-mongering and likes dick swinging authority figures. Still, it was incredibly apparent that Trump was a con artist BEFORE the election.  However, for whatever reason my father (who subscribes to the weird idea that businessmen are better than all other people and should thus also be the best politicians) bought what Trump was selling, but then came to his senses just a few months after the election and was all, OMG, this guy is a lying, incompetent, nutjob!  And he's pissed off at himself for falling for the sales pitch. So that's progress, I guess.  Most people can't bring themselves to admit when they've been duped.
People who can recognize and admit they were wrong are 10x more interesting than other people. I know two people who were frothing-at-the-mouth supporters of Trump who are now openly against him. I think the important lesson for those who were always against Trump are discovered when asking the following questions:

1) what have you learned from Trump's election?
2) what issues have you changed your mind about over the last year?

Bateaux

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2017, 02:34:59 AM »
I wasma registered Republican for almost 30 years.  The only Republican president I've voted for was George Herbert Walker Bush.  I finally became a Democrat to support Bernie in the Primary.  I loathed voting for Clinton, I wanted to vote 3rd party.  I voted for Clinton only to try and stop Trump.  I'm still not a fan of the Democrats, but can't support these robber barron Republicans.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2017, 06:24:00 AM »
My first vote was for W. Yes I regret it. Him, Cheney and and Rove did a lot of harm to our system of government.

cliffhanger

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2017, 06:49:10 AM »
Sol, we have a respectful poster asking a genuine question. You could presumably ask the at least 4 people who come out to say they supported Trump, yet you go straight to a strawman.

So... do you have an actual argument to make?

Kris

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2017, 08:13:14 AM »
Sol, we have a respectful poster asking a genuine question. You could presumably ask the at least 4 people who come out to say they supported Trump, yet you go straight to a strawman.

So... do you have an actual argument to make?

I dunno, this seems pretty accurate to me, based on the Trump supporters I talk to. Except they wouldn't actually say that they had a problem with Obama because he was black -- just that he wasn't born in the US, is a secret Muslim, and supports ISIS.

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2017, 08:21:01 AM »
These concerns mostly look like the concerns of a left-leaning individual who would not vote for Trump in the first place. The people who are deeply concerned about the social status of women and Muslims, think we need to worry a lot about climate change, are against corporate tax cuts, etc....these are people who wouldn't vote for Trump in the first place.

Trump has exceeded my expectations. The Congressional GOP leadership has fallen short. We're still stuck with the ACA framework and we have a tax package that's not politically expedient at all. Those are Congressional failings, not Presidential failings. It's possible that a President Rubio or Bush would have been able to convince McCain to vote along with the ACA repeal, which is the only major change you are going to make. You'd still be stuck with the crappy tax cut bill.

I'm not concerned about what's been revealed in the Russian investigation. The special investigation looks like a waste of time and money.

I'm not concerned with rights of either women or Muslims, because those are protected by the Courts, not the Presidency. If anything, the behavior of the Courts WRT the travel ban convinces me we need more GOP appointees, not more Dem appointees.


I hope someone else runs in the primaries against Trump, but am not optimistic. Trump still has net favorable ratings among GOP voters, so any primary challenger would have an uphill slog.

Kris

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2017, 08:32:08 AM »
These concerns mostly look like the concerns of a left-leaning individual who would not vote for Trump in the first place. The people who are deeply concerned about the social status of women and Muslims, think we need to worry a lot about climate change, are against corporate tax cuts, etc....these are people who wouldn't vote for Trump in the first place.

Trump has exceeded my expectations. The Congressional GOP leadership has fallen short. We're still stuck with the ACA framework and we have a tax package that's not politically expedient at all. Those are Congressional failings, not Presidential failings. It's possible that a President Rubio or Bush would have been able to convince McCain to vote along with the ACA repeal, which is the only major change you are going to make. You'd still be stuck with the crappy tax cut bill.

I'm not concerned about what's been revealed in the Russian investigation. The special investigation looks like a waste of time and money.

I'm not concerned with rights of either women or Muslims, because those are protected by the Courts, not the Presidency. If anything, the behavior of the Courts WRT the travel ban convinces me we need more GOP appointees, not more Dem appointees.


I hope someone else runs in the primaries against Trump, but am not optimistic. Trump still has net favorable ratings among GOP voters, so any primary challenger would have an uphill slog.

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!

Oh, man, stop it. You are KILLING me!

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2017, 08:36:31 AM »

I'm not concerned about what's been revealed in the Russian investigation. The special investigation looks like a waste of time and money.


Figuring out whether a presidential campaign actively coordinated with a foreign power (friendly or hostile) to alter the outcome of the presidential election is a waste of time and money?


freya

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2017, 08:37:13 AM »
The narrative that anyone who votes Republican is automatically racist, xenophobic etc. is certainly pervasive, but it's also unbelievably insulting and frankly childish.

As far as Trump goes:  I detest his behavior and ridiculous Twitter posts.  However, in the long run those things don't matter as much as policy.  His ideas on immigration, taxes, trade policy etc I found to be refreshing and unique to him.  When you clear your mind of the Big Brother double-speak stuff and think seriously about these issues, you realize that he was absolutely spot on about several things.  For instance, immigration has become a tool to suppress wages for the lower and middle class.  "Xenophobia" has nothing to do with wanting to install a reasonable immigration policy, like the ones that New Zealand and Australia have already.

The other main issue I have with Trump:  because he's such a buffoon (I guess), the tax bill and other legislation is more Paul Ryan's work than Trump's.  It does not generally reflect the platform on which he was elected.  The main exception is the corporate tax cut, which I agree is going to be painful in the short run, but needed to happen if you take the long view.  But, the bill doesn't include Trump's ideas of taxing the hedge fund loophole and allowing a one-time minimally-taxed repatriation of overseas cash.  That's a shame.

bacchi

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2017, 08:39:04 AM »
I'm not concerned about what's been revealed in the Russian investigation. The special investigation looks like a waste of time and money.

Fascinating. As there are 2 guilty pleas, and 2 additional indictments, it begs the question: When will you be concerned?

If Kushner does the perp walk, will you be concerned?
If Sessions has an arraignment, will you be concerned?
If Trump follows Nixon, and resigns before he's brought into Congress, would you give even a little credence to the possibility of collusion?

Or is this all a liberal plot organized by (?) Soros and Hillary?

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2017, 08:40:56 AM »
The narrative that anyone who votes Republican is automatically racist, xenophobic etc. is certainly pervasive, but it's also unbelievably insulting and frankly childish.

Yes, it is insulting. Also, if the mainline Republicans kicked out the racist xenophobes, that argument would be completely invalid. As it stands, they need racist votes to maintain their seats.

bacchi

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2017, 08:41:46 AM »
But, the bill doesn't include Trump's ideas of taxing the hedge fund loophole and allowing a one-time minimally-taxed repatriation of overseas cash.  That's a shame.

Yeah, why didn't this make it into the bill? Do corporations not care enough?

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2017, 09:06:02 AM »
I'm not concerned about what's been revealed in the Russian investigation. The special investigation looks like a waste of time and money.

Fascinating. As there are 2 guilty pleas, and 2 additional indictments, it begs the question: When will you be concerned?

If Kushner does the perp walk, will you be concerned?
If Sessions has an arraignment, will you be concerned?
If Trump follows Nixon, and resigns before he's brought into Congress, would you give even a little credence to the possibility of collusion?

Or is this all a liberal plot organized by (?) Soros and Hillary?

The pleas and indictments are incidental and largely have no relation with campaign activities. The information that has come to light re: the actual campaign is pretty insubstantial.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2017, 09:11:29 AM »
The pleas and indictments are incidental and largely have no relation with campaign activities. The information that has come to light re: the actual campaign is pretty insubstantial.

At least one legal expert has a different opinion: https://twitter.com/SethAbramson

bacchi

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2017, 09:13:57 AM »
I'm not concerned about what's been revealed in the Russian investigation. The special investigation looks like a waste of time and money.

Fascinating. As there are 2 guilty pleas, and 2 additional indictments, it begs the question: When will you be concerned?

If Kushner does the perp walk, will you be concerned?
If Sessions has an arraignment, will you be concerned?
If Trump follows Nixon, and resigns before he's brought into Congress, would you give even a little credence to the possibility of collusion?

Or is this all a liberal plot organized by (?) Soros and Hillary?

The pleas and indictments are incidental and largely have no relation with campaign activities. The information that has come to light re: the actual campaign is pretty insubstantial.

The pleas are minor, true, but there's a reason for that.

In any case, are you implying that you won't be concerned even if, for example, Kushner goes to prison for collusion? That you'll keep believing the investigation is a waste of time and money? That it's a liberal conspiracy orchestrated by...Podesta? Is there a point when you'll admit it's true?

Even Clintonistas will admit that Bill got a blow job and lied about it.

surfhb

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2017, 09:14:50 AM »
The narrative that anyone who votes Republican is automatically racist, xenophobic etc. is certainly pervasive, but it's also unbelievably insulting and frankly childish.

Yes, it is insulting. Also, if the mainline Republicans kicked out the racist xenophobes, that argument would be completely invalid. As it stands, they need racist votes to maintain their seats.

Hey....Im still waiting to meet a trump voter who's not racist.   I know several.....my parents, their friends, my cousin, brother, SIL, my business partner,  my best from from elementary school, ect.    The crazy shit  Ive heard come out of their mouths the last 8 years was horrifying. 

cliffhanger

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2017, 09:16:22 AM »
I'm not concerned about what's been revealed in the Russian investigation. The special investigation looks like a waste of time and money.

Fascinating. As there are 2 guilty pleas, and 2 additional indictments, it begs the question: When will you be concerned?

If Kushner does the perp walk, will you be concerned?
If Sessions has an arraignment, will you be concerned?
If Trump follows Nixon, and resigns before he's brought into Congress, would you give even a little credence to the possibility of collusion?

Or is this all a liberal plot organized by (?) Soros and Hillary?

So obviously I can't speak for the poster, but perhaps I can elaborate on this. This investigation is looking more and more politically motivated each day because of the nature of the charges and the investigators themselves.

Mike Flynn is charged with lying to FBI about talking with the Russians while Trump was president-elect. I don't understand how this indicates Trump-Russia collusion. It indicates lying about a legal and typical behavior for incoming administrations, which is baffling to me.

Manafort and Yates are charged with felonies that aren't directly related to Trump-Russia collusion. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/30/heres-what-the-charges-against-manafort-and-gates-mean.html

I think, so far, the biggest smoking gun is the Papadopoulos plea. He was supposedly directed to talking with individuals he thought were connected to the Russian government in order to get dirt on Clinton. tbh, his story seems pretty fishy, but I'm keeping my eye out for what the investigation says.

Just to be clear, these people have broken the law. I'm fully supportive of any just charges brought against them. However, it's a far stretch to use these to say that Trump colluded with Russia to win the election. Furthermore, one of the top investigators was taken off the investigation for spreading very pro-Clinton posts around, and Mueller himself has vague ties to Clinton. Shouldn't the investigators themselves be unimpeachable as these seemingly political ties draw doubt on the integrity of the investigation?

bacchi

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2017, 09:29:13 AM »
Mike Flynn is charged with lying to FBI about talking with the Russians while Trump was president-elect. I don't understand how this indicates Trump-Russia collusion. It indicates lying about a legal and typical behavior for incoming administrations, which is baffling to me.

It's not specifically about Fynn's plea.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/12/01/why-flynn-s-guilty-plea-is-bad-news-for-team-trump.html

Quote
However, it's a far stretch to use these to say that Trump colluded with Russia to win the election.

Agreed. That's why we have a Special Prosecutor.

Quote
Furthermore, one of the top investigators was taken off the investigation for spreading very pro-Clinton posts around,

Mueller dismissed this agent when he found out. This should be a good thing.

Quote
and Mueller himself has vague ties to Clinton. Shouldn't the investigators themselves be unimpeachable as these seemingly political ties draw doubt on the integrity of the investigation?

Is there anything specific about him that's unseemly?

Mueller was appointed to FBI Director by a Republican President. Obama kept him on; is that considered too close to Clinton?

He was praised by both Republicans and Democrats when he was appointed.

Mueller "is a guy whose career is unimpeachable." -- Sen. Ben Sasse (R-Neb.)
"The addition of Robert Mueller as special counsel is consistent with this goal, and I welcome his role at the Department of Justice." -- Paul Ryan
Appointing Mueller is "a very positive development." -- Rep. Carlos Curbelo (R-Fla.)

Etc., etc.

So he's now tainted because...he's investigating the Republican POTUS? Or did he do something else in the past 6 months?

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2017, 09:33:01 AM »
So obviously I can't speak for the poster, but perhaps I can elaborate on this. This investigation is looking more and more politically motivated each day because of the nature of the charges and the investigators themselves.

Mike Flynn is charged with lying to FBI about talking with the Russians while Trump was president-elect. I don't understand how this indicates Trump-Russia collusion. It indicates lying about a legal and typical behavior for incoming administrations, which is baffling to me.

Flynn got a creampuff deal because he's now a witness for the prosecution. They hit him with the lowest charge they possibly could've given him, and apparently won't prosecute his son at all, in exchange for his testimony against people higher up the food chain (only Trump and Pence are higher on the food chain). They had him dead to rights on much more serious charges. He was negotiating rewards to a foreign power in exchange for their campaign-related actions.

The real evidence and charges have yet to see the light of day.

runbikerun

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2017, 09:40:12 AM »
I genuinely cannot understand continued support for Trump. During the election, he admitted to boasting about sexual assault. He's now claiming that the voice on the recording - the voice he already admitted was his - may be fake. That leaves exactly three possible true scenarios:

1 - the recording is fake, and a major presidential campaign decided to admit to an incredibly damaging story that had no basis in fact. I would hope that we can all acknowledge that this is extremely unlikely.

2 - Trump honestly thinks it's not him, and has forgotten that he already admitted to it. This would make him manifestly unfit to serve; a president with those kinds of memory issues would be a catastrophe waiting to happen.

3 - Trump knows it's him, but thinks he can gain something from lying about it. This is the most unsettling implication: if this is the case, we have a US president who sees nothing wrong with blatant and obvious lying - in other words, a president who cannot be trusted on any level whatsoever.

I honestly don't understand how anyone can look at that behaviour and see something still worth defending.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2017, 09:45:05 AM »
I genuinely cannot understand continued support for Trump. During the election, he admitted to boasting about sexual assault. He's now claiming that the voice on the recording - the voice he already admitted was his - may be fake. That leaves exactly three possible true scenarios:

1 - the recording is fake, and a major presidential campaign decided to admit to an incredibly damaging story that had no basis in fact. I would hope that we can all acknowledge that this is extremely unlikely.

2 - Trump honestly thinks it's not him, and has forgotten that he already admitted to it. This would make him manifestly unfit to serve; a president with those kinds of memory issues would be a catastrophe waiting to happen.

3 - Trump knows it's him, but thinks he can gain something from lying about it. This is the most unsettling implication: if this is the case, we have a US president who sees nothing wrong with blatant and obvious lying - in other words, a president who cannot be trusted on any level whatsoever.

I honestly don't understand how anyone can look at that behaviour and see something still worth defending.

Billy Bush wrote an op-ed essentially saying "Yes, it's real. There were seven witnesses."

My money is on #3. It's the simplest explanation.

cliffhanger

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2017, 09:45:26 AM »
Mike Flynn is charged with lying to FBI about talking with the Russians while Trump was president-elect. I don't understand how this indicates Trump-Russia collusion. It indicates lying about a legal and typical behavior for incoming administrations, which is baffling to me.

It's not specifically about Fynn's plea.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/12/01/why-flynn-s-guilty-plea-is-bad-news-for-team-trump.html

Quote
And Fox News reported: “While it is unclear who Flynn himself is prepared to name, Fox News has been told by a former senior intelligence officer with knowledge of Trump transition activities that then-President-Elect Trump directed Flynn during that period to contact the Russians – while also directing him and his team to contact 12 other countries.”

I guess I don't understand what about this is illegal and/or indicates collusion. Maybe it's to early to speculate until we find out what the plea deal was.

Quote
However, it's a far stretch to use these to say that Trump colluded with Russia to win the election.

Agreed. That's why we have a Special Prosecutor.

Quote
Furthermore, one of the top investigators was taken off the investigation for spreading very pro-Clinton posts around,

Mueller dismissed this agent when he found out. This should be a good thing.

I agree, unless it's discovered that Mueller knew about it and only fired him after the public found out. Your's is the simplest explanation though, until any contradictory evidence comes forward. edit: You're right about this. He was dismissed before public found out.

Quote
and Mueller himself has vague ties to Clinton. Shouldn't the investigators themselves be unimpeachable as these seemingly political ties draw doubt on the integrity of the investigation?

Is there anything specific about him that's unseemly?

Mueller was appointed to FBI Director by a Republican President. Obama kept him on; is that considered too close to Clinton?

He was praised by both Republicans and Democrats when he was appointed.

Mueller "is a guy whose career is unimpeachable." -- Sen. Ben Sasse (R-Neb.)
"The addition of Robert Mueller as special counsel is consistent with this goal, and I welcome his role at the Department of Justice." -- Paul Ryan
Appointing Mueller is "a very positive development." -- Rep. Carlos Curbelo (R-Fla.)

Etc., etc.

So he's now tainted because...he's investigating the Republican POTUS? Or did he do something else in the past 6 months?

I have actually been generally supportive of Mueller. But with the first charges arising not necessarily indicated collusion, and with several congressmen questioning his partiality, it casts doubts at least.

http://www.newsweek.com/gop-using-muellers-role-uranium-deal-call-his-resignation-russia-probe-701673

« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 10:11:07 AM by cliffhanger »

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2017, 10:24:04 AM »
Bob Mueller is a lifelong republican.

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2017, 10:29:24 AM »
The pleas and indictments are incidental and largely have no relation with campaign activities. The information that has come to light re: the actual campaign is pretty insubstantial.

At least one legal expert has a different opinion: https://twitter.com/SethAbramson

Yeah, I think violation of an obscure act from the 1790s that has never been used to prosecute anyone, a violation committed by a Presidential transition team, does not justify a special investigation.

Again, maybe there is more evidence, but this doesn't alarm me at all. I would actually need to see the evidence of these additional charges.

acroy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2017, 10:34:55 AM »
I do not regret voting for him at all.  I was initially put off by his manner etc. Generally can't stand watching the narcissistic blowhard. Voted Cruz in the primaries. I still don't like who he is but I'm thrilled with what he's DOING.

In retrospect I'm extremely glad I had the opportunity to vote for the Great Orange Swamp-Drainer and will do it again in 3yrs! For the first time since at least Reagan we have an unapologetic hard-charging dam' the torpedoes Patriot in the White House.

And quit calling me racist. Just proves you've got nothing of substance, so let's sink to the worst of all personal attacks: good old tried-n-true racism, maybe stir in some misogyny for flavor and make snide comments about the South while you're at it. Easy to throw the accusations, placates the ego, places the opposition on defense, and most importantly, prevents any intellectual discourse.

Wexler

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2017, 10:39:20 AM »
Thanks for posting this thread.  The replies have been interesting, although there are more "lulz" Trump voters  than I would have thought.  I was sort of dismayed by this, but then I realized that it's probably an evolution towards regret.

Like it goes from "MAGA" to "lulz-so entertaining" to "well, he sucks but he's still pissing Pelosi off. Liberal tearzz" to [incompetence on my pet issue like net neutrality or pot] to "eh-I'm not voting next time" 

FINate

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2017, 10:41:49 AM »
The narrative that anyone who votes Republican is automatically racist, xenophobic etc. is certainly pervasive, but it's also unbelievably insulting and frankly childish.

Yes, it is insulting. Also, if the mainline Republicans kicked out the racist xenophobes, that argument would be completely invalid. As it stands, they need racist votes to maintain their seats.

Hey....Im still waiting to meet a trump voter who's not racist.   I know several.....my parents, their friends, my cousin, brother, SIL, my business partner,  my best from from elementary school, ect.    The crazy shit  Ive heard come out of their mouths the last 8 years was horrifying.

I know trump voters who aren't racist. (Then again, everyone's a little bit racist, right?) I would say most are obtuse when it comes to race, but not outright racist. I'm still working on several to convince them that unconscious bias and white privilege (IMO systemic injustice is a better term) is real and that they should care about it. But these types of conversations have to happen within the context of a relationship...trying to shame people to a certain way of thinking, no matter how right or how convinced you are of your righteousness, isn't effective. On the contrary, dismissing Trump voters as racist is a conversation stopper, code for writing people off as nothing more as "deplorable" and irredeemable. For a Trump voter it just gives them an excuse to completely ignore the content of your message.

But don't take my word for it, FiveThirtyEight has published a number of articles about how yes, some Trump voters are racist (btw, a decent percentage of Dem voters are also racist, though not clear how many of these ended up voting Trump), but other issues such as economic anxiety are also important factors, which means there are a statistically significant number of people who voted for Trump who are not racist.

Everyone vastly underestimated the anti-establishment mood of the country leading up to the 2016 election. One party went though great lengths to make sure that a "safe" establishment candidate was on the ticket. The other party was in dismay as the anti-establishment candidate won the nomination. In fact, I remember Democrats gleefully rejoicing the day Trump was nominated because they thought, as did I, that he was unelectable. If the DNC hadn't intervened to make sure HRC got the nomination and it was Bernie v. Rubio (or any number of establishment Republicans) then I think we'd have a Sanders administration and people would asking if any Bernie voters regretted their anti-establishment vote.

LibrarIan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2017, 10:46:11 AM »
The narrative that anyone who votes Republican is automatically racist, xenophobic etc. is certainly pervasive, but it's also unbelievably insulting and frankly childish.

Over the past year, I have had a personal shift in my overarching mindset that has affected what I think and how I act, particularly when it comes to politics and general social issues. Last year, I may not have called a Trump supporter a racist to their face, but I was definitely thinking it. I was so quick to judge without considering what other reasons could exist for making someone want to align with him (even if they were not good reasons). I do not rush to judgment anymore.

I think this speaks to extreme polarity though. I have what I'd consider to be far-left friends who think anyone right of here is a racist, fascist, Nazi sympathizer. I also have friends who think anyone who didn't vote Trump are tree-hugging Lefty libtards. (Their words, not mine.)

The inability of people to empathize with or understand people from outside their particular section of the spectrum is an issue that I doubt will ever be fixed.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 10:47:46 AM by LibrarIan »

surfhb

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2017, 10:49:46 AM »

In retrospect I'm extremely glad I had the opportunity to vote for the Great Orange Swamp-Drainer and will do it again in 3yrs! For the first time since at least Reagan we have an unapologetic hard-charging dam' the torpedoes Patriot in the White House.


Please explain what this means?   

You even alive when Reagan was president?     Comparing those times and now is impossible.   Also, Reagan's policies would put him in left field in these political times.       

« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 10:54:20 AM by surfhb »