The Money Mustache Community

Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: Peter Parker on December 02, 2017, 03:51:45 PM

Title: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Peter Parker on December 02, 2017, 03:51:45 PM
It's an honest question.  I'm really curious as to whether anyone voted republican and now regrets it because:

1.  Gutting of ACA and how it effects your FIRE plans...
2.  The republican tax plan
3.  Trump/Russia
4.  Less consumer protection (deregulation)
5.  Korea
6.  General lack of decorum
7.  Environmental issues/climate change issues
8.  Racial/religious (Muslim) tensions
9.  Women's rights/issues

I'm actually curious.  And I'm wondering if you will vote differently next time?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: jinga nation on December 02, 2017, 04:54:38 PM
aka Trumpgret
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: aaahhrealmarcus on December 02, 2017, 05:26:30 PM
I held my nose (literally) and voted for the lesser evil, but I know plenty of people who thought they'd be cute and write in the names of fictional characters, who are now freaking out about losing Net Neutrality.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: FINate on December 02, 2017, 05:55:16 PM
I'm a moderate independent in California, a state that leans so far to the left that I usually end up voting Republican. I voted 3rd party because of items 6-9 on your list.

That said, I'm already FIRE and not a fan of the ACA. I make full use of the premium subsidies, but find it silly that I'm getting over $10k/year from the government essentially for prepaid healthcare that I don't want (nor do I use it). I would much rather have a high deductible catastrophic plan and pay out of pocket for most things...you know...actual insurance. In short, I'm not worried about it.

The tax plan as passed in the Senate looks pretty good. Our corporate tax rates are too high as compared to other OECD countries. Despite appealing to populism, corporate taxes don't generally stick it to the man. Depending on the elasticity of supply/demand the burden falls to a different degree on different groups. And the move from a global to a territorial tax regime for corporations also puts us in line with other industrialized nations and will put a stop to "corporate inversions." My kids go to public school, but I think the tax deduction for private school tuition is fair - a lot of middle class families send their kids to private school, this will be of some help. The  whining about capping deductions for state taxes I find quite humorous. The cap is $10k which in California means that the property tax valuation is near $1 million or greater. It's a tax on rich people, I thought the Dems were in favor of such taxes? Or only when it affects someone else? Same for the taxes on rich university endowments. 

Trump/Russia - we'll see where the investigation goes and what comes of it. If they find a smoking gun I'm fine with him getting booted. Part of me can't help but hearken back to Clinton/China (Chinagate) of the 1990s. 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: jrhampt on December 02, 2017, 07:29:22 PM
 Just a note on property taxes… My property taxes yearly are around $10,000. That includes two older vehicles and a house worth a little over 200,000, and I expect this tax will only increase.   So I am glad they didn't get rid of the property tax deduction all together, but I can see how you could have a reasonable house and exceed the cap Depending upon where you live. I see this more as a tax on people in blue states with high property taxes than as a tax on rich people. 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: FINate on December 02, 2017, 07:36:21 PM
What state?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: jrhampt on December 02, 2017, 07:49:09 PM
Connecticut
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: cliffhanger on December 02, 2017, 10:17:26 PM
It was a pretty complicated decision, but I voted for Trump and don't regret it. These answers are just off the top of my head, but perhaps I could elaborate later.

1. With the rate premiums have been rising, I don't think the ACA is sustainable long-term so I have never seriously considered it a FIRE option (10 years off). I'm not well versed on the issue tbh, but I generally don't support the idea of forcing the purchase of health care. I believe people should be free to choose what is best for their lives.

2. The majority of taxpayers will pay less next year. I support the tax plan, even though I don't like the manner in which it was passed and the deficit increase. Get your spending under control, Government!

3. I'm skeptical of the notion that Trump campaign colluded with Russia to win the election. The most recent 'bombshell' ABC report about Flynn had to be corrected or erroneous reporting and the author was suspended for this behavior. I'll remain open to this when more facts come in. This is possibly something that could flip me for the next election.

4. To this day, I still say that one of the best executive orders was Trump's rollback of unnecessary regulation. I am not in the camp that more regulation = good. If someone could point out a specific one that causes harm, we can surely discuss.

5. I predict this will be the biggest test of his Presidency. I think it's really too early to tell.

6. Don't like it. D-

7. I'm not aware of any harm or potential harm to the environment that Trump has done.

8. Race relations have been degrading many years before Trump. I remember Obama talking if he had a son, he'd look like Travvon Martin. I remember the media lying about 'hands up don't shoot' concerning Michael Brown. The behavior of politics and media surrounding these two events flipped the direction of race relations. What has Trump done that's damaging?

9. What has Trump done that's damaging? What specific rights don't women have that they did during Obama's term?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: vern on December 02, 2017, 11:16:56 PM
I'm an independent voter.  Until last year I'd always voted third party in the presidential elections.  Usually Libertarian, but I threw two in for Perot back in the 90's.

This last election cycle my two favorite candidates were Trump and Bernie Sanders.  I liked them because they were such outsiders and it was hilarious to see all of the contortions their party's went into to try and deny them the nomination.  The republicans tried to stop Trump above the board, and we now know that the democrats stopped Bernie with some underhanded backroom dealings.

So yes, I am an unrepentant thought criminal. But make no mistake about it...if Bernie had been running against an establishment republican like Jeb Bush, I would have voted for Sanders in a heartbeat!
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Johnez on December 03, 2017, 12:01:13 AM
Cliffhanger-with regards to #7, right off the bat I would say Keystone XL has turned into a major clusterfuck. What is it now, 200k gallons of oil leaked?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: davisgang90 on December 03, 2017, 04:08:13 AM
I regret that Republicans claim to be the party of smaller government, but the government never gets smaller, even when they have control. I certainly don't like everything about Trump, but it is entertaining.

I wish we had a viable 3rd party, but for now, I'll continue to vote Republican.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: cliffhanger on December 03, 2017, 07:09:58 AM
Cliffhanger-with regards to #7, right off the bat I would say Keystone XL has turned into a major clusterfuck. What is it now, 200k gallons of oil leaked?

I had to look it up, as I was unaware. Is this what you're talking about?

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/16/us/keystone-pipeline-leak/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/16/us/keystone-pipeline-leak/index.html)

Just a minor correction: this appears to be the Keystone pipeline, not the Keystone XL that has been so controversial. It also appears that the leak was contained quickly, with no lasting damage done to waterways, etc. I don't see how the Trump administration can be blamed.

I'm not saying that it's ok that oil spills happen, but it's the reality of the imperfect world we live in until we can find alternative viable energy sources.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Peter Parker on December 03, 2017, 12:23:54 PM
I appreciate everyone's responses thus far.  It has been a tumulterous time this past year, and I'm doing my best to try to "listen" to those who may a have a difference of opinion than mine.  Perhaps most importantly, I'm trying to see if circumstances are not what you expected, does this change one's mind--or has politics become so "tribal" that there is never any room for such a change...
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: wenchsenior on December 03, 2017, 12:43:40 PM
I appreciate everyone's responses thus far.  It has been a tumulterous time this past year, and I'm doing my best to try to "listen" to those who may a have a difference of opinion than mine.  Perhaps most importantly, I'm trying to see if circumstances are not what you expected, does this change one's mind--or has politics become so "tribal" that there is never any room for such a change...

My father voted for Trump and is now agitating to have him impeached.  I don't quite understand why he voted for him in the first place, except he is susceptible to fear-mongering and likes dick swinging authority figures. Still, it was incredibly apparent that Trump was a con artist BEFORE the election.  However, for whatever reason my father (who subscribes to the weird idea that businessmen are better than all other people and should thus also be the best politicians) bought what Trump was selling, but then came to his senses just a few months after the election and was all, OMG, this guy is a lying, incompetent, nutjob!  And he's pissed off at himself for falling for the sales pitch. So that's progress, I guess.  Most people can't bring themselves to admit when they've been duped.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: abner on December 03, 2017, 03:41:54 PM
Have no regret whatsoever.

Could Trump do better....absolutely.
But all previous presidents could have done better also.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Luck12 on December 03, 2017, 04:03:57 PM

1. With the rate premiums have been rising, I don't think the ACA is sustainable long-term so I have never seriously considered it a FIRE option (10 years off). I'm not well versed on the issue tbh, but I generally don't support the idea of forcing the purchase of health care. I believe people should be free to choose what is best for their lives.

First of all, one can always just pay the penalty.  Second, that "forcing the purchase" is one of the contributors to saving many lives each year (something that I know many sociopathic Republicans don't care about and yes, I've had conversations with a few on this so I know), helps to make insurance more affordable, etc. 

4. To this day, I still say that one of the best executive orders was Trump's rollback of unnecessary regulation. I am not in the camp that more regulation = good. If someone could point out a specific one that causes harm, we can surely discuss. 

He hasn't gotten rid of the CFPB just yet, but they he/they want to get rid of it or at least significantly weaken it.  Guess what?  Bank of America fucked me over and the CFPB solved the problem which saved me hundreds of dollars and got rid of erroneous late payment on my credit report.   I called Bank of America and visited branches several times and each time got the brush off.  They didn't give a shit.  Thanks to CFPB, the little guy got his rightful justice. 


7. I'm not aware of any harm or potential harm to the environment that Trump has done.

Then you haven't done any research and I suspect you don't care. 

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/03/how-trump-is-changing-science-environment/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_policy_of_the_Donald_Trump_administration




OP, something like 80%+ of Republicans wouldn't care even if there was proof he colluded with the Russians.   Hell, Nixon still had much more than majority approval at the time of his resignation.  People, especially Republicans, are very tribal and it takes a lot for them to admit their mistakes. 

Trump was right:  He could shoot someone on 5th avenue and still be popular among his supporters. 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: cliffhanger on December 03, 2017, 05:51:33 PM

7. I'm not aware of any harm or potential harm to the environment that Trump has done.

Then you haven't done any research and I suspect you don't care. 

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/03/how-trump-is-changing-science-environment/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_policy_of_the_Donald_Trump_administration



We can address the facts surrounding a great number of topics, we can debate the consequences of all actions we can take, we can disagree on the politics of those issue. What we cannot do is attribute the worst motive to someone without evidence. I'll be happy to look through the links you provided. But if you'd actually like to have a discussion about it, then stop this bullcrap about me not caring.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: surfhb on December 03, 2017, 07:52:32 PM
I mean Cmon!   If I were at a party and someone was talking about "pussy grabby" and "moving on her", ect. and we all decided to go back to your place for an after party?    Would you invite the dickhead?    I'd like to hope not!   Much less vote for him for president.   Game over!    Your vote should have ended there

Thats just a small example......add backing out of the Paris accord and the lack of support for the people who were standing up to a white supremacist march, ect. 

Its mind boggling why any thinking individual would vote for this shitbag....this coming from someone who has voted GOP.

Doesnt matter.   He will not last 4 years and we will see the first American president removed from office.   I call it right now.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 03, 2017, 08:31:37 PM
Its mind boggling why any thinking individual would vote for this shitbag....this coming from someone who has voted GOP.

I don't find it that boggling, and I agree that he's a shitbag.

But people will actively hold their nose over a shitbag if it's THEIR shitbag.  They really hated that the last President wasn't white, and that white privilege has been in steady decline for decades, and that Trump has promised to reverse this trend.  They don't really care about anything else, including rampant sexual assault.  Collusion with the Russians wouldn't bother them.  Shuttering entire departments would be fine.  Nothing matters, up to and including gross incompetence played out on a national stage and encompassing the moral and political decline of America.  Because women belong in the home and Trump knows it!  Confederate flags celebrate our heritage as slave-owners, not slavery!  Global warming is a hoax!  Blue lives matter!

Lots of people subsist on a daily diet of this sort of misinformation.  It informs their worldview and it overrules any other evidence they might encounter, because the Fox News version of reality comes at them like a firehose 24/7 and nothing else can fit in their eye holes.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: surfhb on December 03, 2017, 08:50:14 PM
Its mind boggling why any thinking individual would vote for this shitbag....this coming from someone who has voted GOP.

I don't find it that boggling, and I agree that he's a shitbag.

But people will actively hold their nose over a shitbag if it's THEIR shitbag.  They really hated that the last President wasn't white, and that white privilege has been in steady decline for decades, and that Trump has promised to reverse this trend.  They don't really care about anything else, including rampant sexual assault.  Collusion with the Russians wouldn't bother them.  Shuttering entire departments would be fine.  Nothing matters, up to and including gross incompetence played out on a national stage and encompassing the moral and political decline of America.  Because women belong in the home and Trump knows it!  Confederate flags celebrate our heritage as slave-owners!  Global warming is a hoax!  Blue lives matter!

Lots of people subsist on a daily diet of this sort of misinformation.  It informs their worldview and it overrules any other evidence they might encounter, because the Fox News version of reality comes at them like a firehose 24/7 and nothing else can fit in their eye holes.

I agree..... In addition, lots of Americans live in a completely homogeneous  bubble within their communities. 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: bwall on December 03, 2017, 09:17:03 PM

But people will actively hold their nose over a shitbag if it's THEIR shitbag.  They really hated that the last President wasn't white, and that white privilege has been in steady decline for decades, and that Trump has promised to reverse this trend.  They don't really care about anything else, including rampant sexual assault.  Collusion with the Russians wouldn't bother them.  Shuttering entire departments would be fine.  Nothing matters, up to and including gross incompetence played out on a national stage and encompassing the moral and political decline of America.  Because women belong in the home and Trump knows it!  Confederate flags celebrate our heritage as slave-owners!  Global warming is a hoax!  Blue lives matter!

Lots of people subsist on a daily diet of this sort of misinformation.  It informs their worldview and it overrules any other evidence they might encounter, because the Fox News version of reality comes at them like a firehose 24/7 and nothing else can fit in their eye holes.

This is the most insightful and succinct post I have read all week. Depressing.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: lost_in_the_endless_aisle on December 03, 2017, 09:44:09 PM
I appreciate everyone's responses thus far.  It has been a tumulterous time this past year, and I'm doing my best to try to "listen" to those who may a have a difference of opinion than mine.  Perhaps most importantly, I'm trying to see if circumstances are not what you expected, does this change one's mind--or has politics become so "tribal" that there is never any room for such a change...

My father voted for Trump and is now agitating to have him impeached.  I don't quite understand why he voted for him in the first place, except he is susceptible to fear-mongering and likes dick swinging authority figures. Still, it was incredibly apparent that Trump was a con artist BEFORE the election.  However, for whatever reason my father (who subscribes to the weird idea that businessmen are better than all other people and should thus also be the best politicians) bought what Trump was selling, but then came to his senses just a few months after the election and was all, OMG, this guy is a lying, incompetent, nutjob!  And he's pissed off at himself for falling for the sales pitch. So that's progress, I guess.  Most people can't bring themselves to admit when they've been duped.
People who can recognize and admit they were wrong are 10x more interesting than other people. I know two people who were frothing-at-the-mouth supporters of Trump who are now openly against him. I think the important lesson for those who were always against Trump are discovered when asking the following questions:

1) what have you learned from Trump's election?
2) what issues have you changed your mind about over the last year?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Bateaux on December 04, 2017, 02:34:59 AM
I wasma registered Republican for almost 30 years.  The only Republican president I've voted for was George Herbert Walker Bush.  I finally became a Democrat to support Bernie in the Primary.  I loathed voting for Clinton, I wanted to vote 3rd party.  I voted for Clinton only to try and stop Trump.  I'm still not a fan of the Democrats, but can't support these robber barron Republicans.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: NoStacheOhio on December 04, 2017, 06:24:00 AM
My first vote was for W. Yes I regret it. Him, Cheney and and Rove did a lot of harm to our system of government.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: cliffhanger on December 04, 2017, 06:49:10 AM
Sol, we have a respectful poster asking a genuine question. You could presumably ask the at least 4 people who come out to say they supported Trump, yet you go straight to a strawman.

So... do you have an actual argument to make?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Kris on December 04, 2017, 08:13:14 AM
Sol, we have a respectful poster asking a genuine question. You could presumably ask the at least 4 people who come out to say they supported Trump, yet you go straight to a strawman.

So... do you have an actual argument to make?

I dunno, this seems pretty accurate to me, based on the Trump supporters I talk to. Except they wouldn't actually say that they had a problem with Obama because he was black -- just that he wasn't born in the US, is a secret Muslim, and supports ISIS.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: A Definite Beta Guy on December 04, 2017, 08:21:01 AM
These concerns mostly look like the concerns of a left-leaning individual who would not vote for Trump in the first place. The people who are deeply concerned about the social status of women and Muslims, think we need to worry a lot about climate change, are against corporate tax cuts, etc....these are people who wouldn't vote for Trump in the first place.

Trump has exceeded my expectations. The Congressional GOP leadership has fallen short. We're still stuck with the ACA framework and we have a tax package that's not politically expedient at all. Those are Congressional failings, not Presidential failings. It's possible that a President Rubio or Bush would have been able to convince McCain to vote along with the ACA repeal, which is the only major change you are going to make. You'd still be stuck with the crappy tax cut bill.

I'm not concerned about what's been revealed in the Russian investigation. The special investigation looks like a waste of time and money.

I'm not concerned with rights of either women or Muslims, because those are protected by the Courts, not the Presidency. If anything, the behavior of the Courts WRT the travel ban convinces me we need more GOP appointees, not more Dem appointees.


I hope someone else runs in the primaries against Trump, but am not optimistic. Trump still has net favorable ratings among GOP voters, so any primary challenger would have an uphill slog.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Kris on December 04, 2017, 08:32:08 AM
These concerns mostly look like the concerns of a left-leaning individual who would not vote for Trump in the first place. The people who are deeply concerned about the social status of women and Muslims, think we need to worry a lot about climate change, are against corporate tax cuts, etc....these are people who wouldn't vote for Trump in the first place.

Trump has exceeded my expectations. The Congressional GOP leadership has fallen short. We're still stuck with the ACA framework and we have a tax package that's not politically expedient at all. Those are Congressional failings, not Presidential failings. It's possible that a President Rubio or Bush would have been able to convince McCain to vote along with the ACA repeal, which is the only major change you are going to make. You'd still be stuck with the crappy tax cut bill.

I'm not concerned about what's been revealed in the Russian investigation. The special investigation looks like a waste of time and money.

I'm not concerned with rights of either women or Muslims, because those are protected by the Courts, not the Presidency. If anything, the behavior of the Courts WRT the travel ban convinces me we need more GOP appointees, not more Dem appointees.


I hope someone else runs in the primaries against Trump, but am not optimistic. Trump still has net favorable ratings among GOP voters, so any primary challenger would have an uphill slog.

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!

Oh, man, stop it. You are KILLING me!
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: NoStacheOhio on December 04, 2017, 08:36:31 AM

I'm not concerned about what's been revealed in the Russian investigation. The special investigation looks like a waste of time and money.


Figuring out whether a presidential campaign actively coordinated with a foreign power (friendly or hostile) to alter the outcome of the presidential election is a waste of time and money?

Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: freya on December 04, 2017, 08:37:13 AM
The narrative that anyone who votes Republican is automatically racist, xenophobic etc. is certainly pervasive, but it's also unbelievably insulting and frankly childish.

As far as Trump goes:  I detest his behavior and ridiculous Twitter posts.  However, in the long run those things don't matter as much as policy.  His ideas on immigration, taxes, trade policy etc I found to be refreshing and unique to him.  When you clear your mind of the Big Brother double-speak stuff and think seriously about these issues, you realize that he was absolutely spot on about several things.  For instance, immigration has become a tool to suppress wages for the lower and middle class.  "Xenophobia" has nothing to do with wanting to install a reasonable immigration policy, like the ones that New Zealand and Australia have already.

The other main issue I have with Trump:  because he's such a buffoon (I guess), the tax bill and other legislation is more Paul Ryan's work than Trump's.  It does not generally reflect the platform on which he was elected.  The main exception is the corporate tax cut, which I agree is going to be painful in the short run, but needed to happen if you take the long view.  But, the bill doesn't include Trump's ideas of taxing the hedge fund loophole and allowing a one-time minimally-taxed repatriation of overseas cash.  That's a shame.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: bacchi on December 04, 2017, 08:39:04 AM
I'm not concerned about what's been revealed in the Russian investigation. The special investigation looks like a waste of time and money.

Fascinating. As there are 2 guilty pleas, and 2 additional indictments, it begs the question: When will you be concerned?

If Kushner does the perp walk, will you be concerned?
If Sessions has an arraignment, will you be concerned?
If Trump follows Nixon, and resigns before he's brought into Congress, would you give even a little credence to the possibility of collusion?

Or is this all a liberal plot organized by (?) Soros and Hillary?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: NoStacheOhio on December 04, 2017, 08:40:56 AM
The narrative that anyone who votes Republican is automatically racist, xenophobic etc. is certainly pervasive, but it's also unbelievably insulting and frankly childish.

Yes, it is insulting. Also, if the mainline Republicans kicked out the racist xenophobes, that argument would be completely invalid. As it stands, they need racist votes to maintain their seats.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: bacchi on December 04, 2017, 08:41:46 AM
But, the bill doesn't include Trump's ideas of taxing the hedge fund loophole and allowing a one-time minimally-taxed repatriation of overseas cash.  That's a shame.

Yeah, why didn't this make it into the bill? Do corporations not care enough?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: A Definite Beta Guy on December 04, 2017, 09:06:02 AM
I'm not concerned about what's been revealed in the Russian investigation. The special investigation looks like a waste of time and money.

Fascinating. As there are 2 guilty pleas, and 2 additional indictments, it begs the question: When will you be concerned?

If Kushner does the perp walk, will you be concerned?
If Sessions has an arraignment, will you be concerned?
If Trump follows Nixon, and resigns before he's brought into Congress, would you give even a little credence to the possibility of collusion?

Or is this all a liberal plot organized by (?) Soros and Hillary?

The pleas and indictments are incidental and largely have no relation with campaign activities. The information that has come to light re: the actual campaign is pretty insubstantial.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: NoStacheOhio on December 04, 2017, 09:11:29 AM
The pleas and indictments are incidental and largely have no relation with campaign activities. The information that has come to light re: the actual campaign is pretty insubstantial.

At least one legal expert has a different opinion: https://twitter.com/SethAbramson
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: bacchi on December 04, 2017, 09:13:57 AM
I'm not concerned about what's been revealed in the Russian investigation. The special investigation looks like a waste of time and money.

Fascinating. As there are 2 guilty pleas, and 2 additional indictments, it begs the question: When will you be concerned?

If Kushner does the perp walk, will you be concerned?
If Sessions has an arraignment, will you be concerned?
If Trump follows Nixon, and resigns before he's brought into Congress, would you give even a little credence to the possibility of collusion?

Or is this all a liberal plot organized by (?) Soros and Hillary?

The pleas and indictments are incidental and largely have no relation with campaign activities. The information that has come to light re: the actual campaign is pretty insubstantial.

The pleas are minor, true, but there's a reason for that.

In any case, are you implying that you won't be concerned even if, for example, Kushner goes to prison for collusion? That you'll keep believing the investigation is a waste of time and money? That it's a liberal conspiracy orchestrated by...Podesta? Is there a point when you'll admit it's true?

Even Clintonistas will admit that Bill got a blow job and lied about it.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: surfhb on December 04, 2017, 09:14:50 AM
The narrative that anyone who votes Republican is automatically racist, xenophobic etc. is certainly pervasive, but it's also unbelievably insulting and frankly childish.

Yes, it is insulting. Also, if the mainline Republicans kicked out the racist xenophobes, that argument would be completely invalid. As it stands, they need racist votes to maintain their seats.

Hey....Im still waiting to meet a trump voter who's not racist.   I know several.....my parents, their friends, my cousin, brother, SIL, my business partner,  my best from from elementary school, ect.    The crazy shit  Ive heard come out of their mouths the last 8 years was horrifying. 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: cliffhanger on December 04, 2017, 09:16:22 AM
I'm not concerned about what's been revealed in the Russian investigation. The special investigation looks like a waste of time and money.

Fascinating. As there are 2 guilty pleas, and 2 additional indictments, it begs the question: When will you be concerned?

If Kushner does the perp walk, will you be concerned?
If Sessions has an arraignment, will you be concerned?
If Trump follows Nixon, and resigns before he's brought into Congress, would you give even a little credence to the possibility of collusion?

Or is this all a liberal plot organized by (?) Soros and Hillary?

So obviously I can't speak for the poster, but perhaps I can elaborate on this. This investigation is looking more and more politically motivated each day because of the nature of the charges and the investigators themselves.

Mike Flynn is charged with lying to FBI about talking with the Russians while Trump was president-elect. I don't understand how this indicates Trump-Russia collusion. It indicates lying about a legal and typical behavior for incoming administrations, which is baffling to me.

Manafort and Yates are charged with felonies that aren't directly related to Trump-Russia collusion. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/30/heres-what-the-charges-against-manafort-and-gates-mean.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/30/heres-what-the-charges-against-manafort-and-gates-mean.html)

I think, so far, the biggest smoking gun is the Papadopoulos plea. He was supposedly directed to talking with individuals he thought were connected to the Russian government in order to get dirt on Clinton. tbh, his story seems pretty fishy, but I'm keeping my eye out for what the investigation says.

Just to be clear, these people have broken the law. I'm fully supportive of any just charges brought against them. However, it's a far stretch to use these to say that Trump colluded with Russia to win the election. Furthermore, one of the top investigators was taken off the investigation for spreading very pro-Clinton posts around, and Mueller himself has vague ties to Clinton. Shouldn't the investigators themselves be unimpeachable as these seemingly political ties draw doubt on the integrity of the investigation?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: bacchi on December 04, 2017, 09:29:13 AM
Mike Flynn is charged with lying to FBI about talking with the Russians while Trump was president-elect. I don't understand how this indicates Trump-Russia collusion. It indicates lying about a legal and typical behavior for incoming administrations, which is baffling to me.

It's not specifically about Fynn's plea.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/12/01/why-flynn-s-guilty-plea-is-bad-news-for-team-trump.html

Quote
However, it's a far stretch to use these to say that Trump colluded with Russia to win the election.

Agreed. That's why we have a Special Prosecutor.

Quote
Furthermore, one of the top investigators was taken off the investigation for spreading very pro-Clinton posts around,

Mueller dismissed this agent when he found out. This should be a good thing.

Quote
and Mueller himself has vague ties to Clinton. Shouldn't the investigators themselves be unimpeachable as these seemingly political ties draw doubt on the integrity of the investigation?

Is there anything specific about him that's unseemly?

Mueller was appointed to FBI Director by a Republican President. Obama kept him on; is that considered too close to Clinton?

He was praised by both Republicans and Democrats when he was appointed.

Mueller "is a guy whose career is unimpeachable." -- Sen. Ben Sasse (R-Neb.)
"The addition of Robert Mueller as special counsel is consistent with this goal, and I welcome his role at the Department of Justice." -- Paul Ryan
Appointing Mueller is "a very positive development." -- Rep. Carlos Curbelo (R-Fla.)

Etc., etc.

So he's now tainted because...he's investigating the Republican POTUS? Or did he do something else in the past 6 months?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: NoStacheOhio on December 04, 2017, 09:33:01 AM
So obviously I can't speak for the poster, but perhaps I can elaborate on this. This investigation is looking more and more politically motivated each day because of the nature of the charges and the investigators themselves.

Mike Flynn is charged with lying to FBI about talking with the Russians while Trump was president-elect. I don't understand how this indicates Trump-Russia collusion. It indicates lying about a legal and typical behavior for incoming administrations, which is baffling to me.

Flynn got a creampuff deal because he's now a witness for the prosecution. They hit him with the lowest charge they possibly could've given him, and apparently won't prosecute his son at all, in exchange for his testimony against people higher up the food chain (only Trump and Pence are higher on the food chain). They had him dead to rights on much more serious charges. He was negotiating rewards to a foreign power in exchange for their campaign-related actions.

The real evidence and charges have yet to see the light of day.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: runbikerun on December 04, 2017, 09:40:12 AM
I genuinely cannot understand continued support for Trump. During the election, he admitted to boasting about sexual assault. He's now claiming that the voice on the recording - the voice he already admitted was his - may be fake. That leaves exactly three possible true scenarios:

1 - the recording is fake, and a major presidential campaign decided to admit to an incredibly damaging story that had no basis in fact. I would hope that we can all acknowledge that this is extremely unlikely.

2 - Trump honestly thinks it's not him, and has forgotten that he already admitted to it. This would make him manifestly unfit to serve; a president with those kinds of memory issues would be a catastrophe waiting to happen.

3 - Trump knows it's him, but thinks he can gain something from lying about it. This is the most unsettling implication: if this is the case, we have a US president who sees nothing wrong with blatant and obvious lying - in other words, a president who cannot be trusted on any level whatsoever.

I honestly don't understand how anyone can look at that behaviour and see something still worth defending.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: NoStacheOhio on December 04, 2017, 09:45:05 AM
I genuinely cannot understand continued support for Trump. During the election, he admitted to boasting about sexual assault. He's now claiming that the voice on the recording - the voice he already admitted was his - may be fake. That leaves exactly three possible true scenarios:

1 - the recording is fake, and a major presidential campaign decided to admit to an incredibly damaging story that had no basis in fact. I would hope that we can all acknowledge that this is extremely unlikely.

2 - Trump honestly thinks it's not him, and has forgotten that he already admitted to it. This would make him manifestly unfit to serve; a president with those kinds of memory issues would be a catastrophe waiting to happen.

3 - Trump knows it's him, but thinks he can gain something from lying about it. This is the most unsettling implication: if this is the case, we have a US president who sees nothing wrong with blatant and obvious lying - in other words, a president who cannot be trusted on any level whatsoever.

I honestly don't understand how anyone can look at that behaviour and see something still worth defending.

Billy Bush wrote an op-ed essentially saying "Yes, it's real. There were seven witnesses."

My money is on #3. It's the simplest explanation.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: cliffhanger on December 04, 2017, 09:45:26 AM
Mike Flynn is charged with lying to FBI about talking with the Russians while Trump was president-elect. I don't understand how this indicates Trump-Russia collusion. It indicates lying about a legal and typical behavior for incoming administrations, which is baffling to me.

It's not specifically about Fynn's plea.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/12/01/why-flynn-s-guilty-plea-is-bad-news-for-team-trump.html

Quote
And Fox News reported: “While it is unclear who Flynn himself is prepared to name, Fox News has been told by a former senior intelligence officer with knowledge of Trump transition activities that then-President-Elect Trump directed Flynn during that period to contact the Russians – while also directing him and his team to contact 12 other countries.”

I guess I don't understand what about this is illegal and/or indicates collusion. Maybe it's to early to speculate until we find out what the plea deal was.

Quote
However, it's a far stretch to use these to say that Trump colluded with Russia to win the election.

Agreed. That's why we have a Special Prosecutor.

Quote
Furthermore, one of the top investigators was taken off the investigation for spreading very pro-Clinton posts around,

Mueller dismissed this agent when he found out. This should be a good thing.

I agree, unless it's discovered that Mueller knew about it and only fired him after the public found out. Your's is the simplest explanation though, until any contradictory evidence comes forward. edit: You're right about this. He was dismissed before public found out.

Quote
and Mueller himself has vague ties to Clinton. Shouldn't the investigators themselves be unimpeachable as these seemingly political ties draw doubt on the integrity of the investigation?

Is there anything specific about him that's unseemly?

Mueller was appointed to FBI Director by a Republican President. Obama kept him on; is that considered too close to Clinton?

He was praised by both Republicans and Democrats when he was appointed.

Mueller "is a guy whose career is unimpeachable." -- Sen. Ben Sasse (R-Neb.)
"The addition of Robert Mueller as special counsel is consistent with this goal, and I welcome his role at the Department of Justice." -- Paul Ryan
Appointing Mueller is "a very positive development." -- Rep. Carlos Curbelo (R-Fla.)

Etc., etc.

So he's now tainted because...he's investigating the Republican POTUS? Or did he do something else in the past 6 months?

I have actually been generally supportive of Mueller. But with the first charges arising not necessarily indicated collusion, and with several congressmen questioning his partiality, it casts doubts at least.

http://www.newsweek.com/gop-using-muellers-role-uranium-deal-call-his-resignation-russia-probe-701673 (http://www.newsweek.com/gop-using-muellers-role-uranium-deal-call-his-resignation-russia-probe-701673)
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 04, 2017, 10:24:04 AM
Bob Mueller is a lifelong republican.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: A Definite Beta Guy on December 04, 2017, 10:29:24 AM
The pleas and indictments are incidental and largely have no relation with campaign activities. The information that has come to light re: the actual campaign is pretty insubstantial.

At least one legal expert has a different opinion: https://twitter.com/SethAbramson

Yeah, I think violation of an obscure act from the 1790s that has never been used to prosecute anyone, a violation committed by a Presidential transition team, does not justify a special investigation.

Again, maybe there is more evidence, but this doesn't alarm me at all. I would actually need to see the evidence of these additional charges.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: acroy on December 04, 2017, 10:34:55 AM
I do not regret voting for him at all.  I was initially put off by his manner etc. Generally can't stand watching the narcissistic blowhard. Voted Cruz in the primaries. I still don't like who he is but I'm thrilled with what he's DOING.

In retrospect I'm extremely glad I had the opportunity to vote for the Great Orange Swamp-Drainer and will do it again in 3yrs! For the first time since at least Reagan we have an unapologetic hard-charging dam' the torpedoes Patriot in the White House.

And quit calling me racist. Just proves you've got nothing of substance, so let's sink to the worst of all personal attacks: good old tried-n-true racism, maybe stir in some misogyny for flavor and make snide comments about the South while you're at it. Easy to throw the accusations, placates the ego, places the opposition on defense, and most importantly, prevents any intellectual discourse.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Wexler on December 04, 2017, 10:39:20 AM
Thanks for posting this thread.  The replies have been interesting, although there are more "lulz" Trump voters  than I would have thought.  I was sort of dismayed by this, but then I realized that it's probably an evolution towards regret.

Like it goes from "MAGA" to "lulz-so entertaining" to "well, he sucks but he's still pissing Pelosi off. Liberal tearzz" to [incompetence on my pet issue like net neutrality or pot] to "eh-I'm not voting next time" 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: FINate on December 04, 2017, 10:41:49 AM
The narrative that anyone who votes Republican is automatically racist, xenophobic etc. is certainly pervasive, but it's also unbelievably insulting and frankly childish.

Yes, it is insulting. Also, if the mainline Republicans kicked out the racist xenophobes, that argument would be completely invalid. As it stands, they need racist votes to maintain their seats.

Hey....Im still waiting to meet a trump voter who's not racist.   I know several.....my parents, their friends, my cousin, brother, SIL, my business partner,  my best from from elementary school, ect.    The crazy shit  Ive heard come out of their mouths the last 8 years was horrifying.

I know trump voters who aren't racist. (Then again, everyone's a little bit racist (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXnM1uHhsOI), right?) I would say most are obtuse when it comes to race, but not outright racist. I'm still working on several to convince them that unconscious bias and white privilege (IMO systemic injustice is a better term) is real and that they should care about it. But these types of conversations have to happen within the context of a relationship...trying to shame people to a certain way of thinking, no matter how right or how convinced you are of your righteousness, isn't effective. On the contrary, dismissing Trump voters as racist is a conversation stopper, code for writing people off as nothing more as "deplorable" and irredeemable. For a Trump voter it just gives them an excuse to completely ignore the content of your message.

But don't take my word for it, FiveThirtyEight has published a number of articles about how yes, some Trump voters are racist (btw, a decent percentage of Dem voters are also racist (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-white-republicans-more-racist-than-white-democrats/), though not clear how many of these ended up voting Trump), but other issues such as economic anxiety (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/stop-saying-trumps-win-had-nothing-to-do-with-economics/) are also important factors, which means there are a statistically significant number of people who voted for Trump who are not racist.

Everyone vastly underestimated the anti-establishment mood of the country leading up to the 2016 election. One party went though great lengths to make sure that a "safe" establishment candidate was on the ticket. The other party was in dismay as the anti-establishment candidate won the nomination. In fact, I remember Democrats gleefully rejoicing the day Trump was nominated because they thought, as did I, that he was unelectable. If the DNC hadn't intervened to make sure HRC got the nomination and it was Bernie v. Rubio (or any number of establishment Republicans) then I think we'd have a Sanders administration and people would asking if any Bernie voters regretted their anti-establishment vote.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: LibrarIan on December 04, 2017, 10:46:11 AM
The narrative that anyone who votes Republican is automatically racist, xenophobic etc. is certainly pervasive, but it's also unbelievably insulting and frankly childish.

Over the past year, I have had a personal shift in my overarching mindset that has affected what I think and how I act, particularly when it comes to politics and general social issues. Last year, I may not have called a Trump supporter a racist to their face, but I was definitely thinking it. I was so quick to judge without considering what other reasons could exist for making someone want to align with him (even if they were not good reasons). I do not rush to judgment anymore.

I think this speaks to extreme polarity though. I have what I'd consider to be far-left friends who think anyone right of here is a racist, fascist, Nazi sympathizer. I also have friends who think anyone who didn't vote Trump are tree-hugging Lefty libtards. (Their words, not mine.)

The inability of people to empathize with or understand people from outside their particular section of the spectrum is an issue that I doubt will ever be fixed.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: surfhb on December 04, 2017, 10:49:46 AM

In retrospect I'm extremely glad I had the opportunity to vote for the Great Orange Swamp-Drainer and will do it again in 3yrs! For the first time since at least Reagan we have an unapologetic hard-charging dam' the torpedoes Patriot in the White House.


Please explain what this means?   

You even alive when Reagan was president?     Comparing those times and now is impossible.   Also, Reagan's policies would put him in left field in these political times.       

Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 04, 2017, 11:06:22 AM
Reagan's policies would put him in left field in these political times.     

Reagan was a pinko commie compared to the modem GOP.

How would Reagan have felt about publicly endorsing a child molester for the Senate?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 04, 2017, 11:09:45 AM
Didn't vote for him but woo boy...reading these responses.  People are bending over backwards to try to justify the *****-grabber in Chief.  And apparently buried their heads in the sand on the Muslim tweets last week, white supremacist crap WRT Charlottesville, etc.

It is pretty mind-blowing to read people justifying the actions of the most-corrupt President since Nixon.

Carry on.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: runbikerun on December 04, 2017, 11:13:21 AM
The claim that Trump is a "patriot" is one of the weirder claims to come out of the pro-Trump enthusiasts. He's done more to wreck American standing and American soft power than anyone in modern history, even ending up abusing the mayor of London and the prime minister of the United Kingdom for not being Islamophobic enough. That's the polar opposite of patriotism: he's making it harder for America to achieve its foreign policy goals by ensuring that being seen to be close to him is electoral poison for most leaders.

The UK is frantically trying to figure out how to cancel a state visit planned for 2018, because they're genuinely and legitimately concerned that a visit from the president of Britain's oldest and firmest ally will be met with a never-ending barrage of abuse and invective from the British public. Imagine thousands of people hurling rotten fruit at the presidential motorcade for fifteen miles straight: that's honestly a real possibility. Having Trump abuse her on Twitter has legitimately been the best thing that has happened to Theresa May in the last six months. That's not patriotism: it's catastrophe.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 04, 2017, 11:23:13 AM
I do not regret voting for him at all.  I was initially put off by his manner etc. Generally can't stand watching the narcissistic blowhard. Voted Cruz in the primaries. I still don't like who he is but I'm thrilled with what he's DOING.

What has he done, specifically, that you are thrilled about?

Quote
In retrospect I'm extremely glad I had the opportunity to vote for the Great Orange Swamp-Drainer and will do it again in 3yrs! For the first time since at least Reagan we have an unapologetic hard-charging dam' the torpedoes Patriot in the White House.

Quote
Shortly before Election Day last year, Donald Trump rolled out a package of ethics reforms that he promised to implement as president, using for the first time a now-famous phrase: “drain the swamp.”

A year later and nearly nine months into his presidency, Trump has failed to deliver on most of those reforms. Of a five-point list of proposals he unveiled to tighten the rules for Washington lobbying, only one has been fully implemented.

And rather than draining the swamp, many Washington lobbyists say business is better than ever. Spending on lobbying in Washington totaled almost $1.7 billion in the first half of the year, the highest since 2012, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/19/trump-drain-swamp-promises-243924

Quote
Corey Lewandowski, who worked as Trump’s campaign manager, moved to Washington, D.C., and started a Beltway lobbying firm, where he accepted lots of money from special interests that were trying to influence Trump. Meanwhile, The New York Times reported, “Established K Street firms were grabbing any Trump people they could find: Jim Murphy, Trump’s former political director, joined the lobbying giant BakerHostetler, while another firm, Fidelis Government Relations, struck up a partnership with Bill Smith, Mike Pence’s former chief of staff. All told, close to 20 ex-aides of Trump, friends, and hangers-on had made their way into Washington’s influence business.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/09/meet-the-new-swamp/540540/

Quote
He has already spent more than two months worth of his time in office at one of the golf properties in which he has a financial stake. Because he refuses to fully divest his financial interests, each trip to a Trump-owned commercial property essentially forces the American people to deposit funds into his families’ bank account. His large entourage of staff and security personnel also pay lodging and meal expenses at these Trump properties with taxpayer funds.

So 1) what has he done that you are trilled about?

And 2) How can you say with a straight face he's "drained the swamp?"
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: cliffhanger on December 04, 2017, 11:24:12 AM
The narrative that anyone who votes Republican is automatically racist, xenophobic etc. is certainly pervasive, but it's also unbelievably insulting and frankly childish.

Over the past year, I have had a personal shift in my overarching mindset that has affected what I think and how I act, particularly when it comes to politics and general social issues. Last year, I may not have called a Trump supporter a racist to their face, but I was definitely thinking it. I was so quick to judge without considering what other reasons could exist for making someone want to align with him (even if they were not good reasons). I do not rush to judgment anymore.

I think this speaks to extreme polarity though. I have what I'd consider to be far-left friends who think anyone right of here is a racist, fascist, Nazi sympathizer. I also have friends who think anyone who didn't vote Trump are tree-hugging Lefty libtards. (Their words, not mine.)

The inability of people to empathize with or understand people from outside their particular section of the spectrum is an issue that I doubt will ever be fixed.

+1

This has been perhaps the most disheartening thing about the past year or so. We talk about Trump supporters being in a bubble all the time, but there is also a second bubble full of anti-Trump folks. Neither of which try or care to understand the other side. We've seen politically motivated violence rise, I think in part because we dehumanize the other side. This is truly awful behavior that needs to stop.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: runbikerun on December 04, 2017, 11:35:33 AM
If you vote for a racist candidate running a racist campaign based on racist policies, I have little sympathy for your claims that you're being unfairly tarred as racist.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: cliffhanger on December 04, 2017, 11:41:32 AM
If you vote for a racist candidate running a racist campaign based on racist policies, I have little sympathy for your claims that you're being unfairly tarred as racist.

Name a specific racist policy that the Trump administration has implemented. No one takes your virtue signaling seriously.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 04, 2017, 11:41:50 AM
If you vote for a racist candidate running a racist campaign based on racist policies, I have little sympathy for your claims that you're being unfairly tarred as racist.

If I were going to "be fair" to them, I'd say something like, "Well, they're just falling for racist dog whistles.  They don't know they're being racist because it's not explicit."

That's the only "defense" I've got.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 04, 2017, 11:44:24 AM
If you vote for a racist candidate running a racist campaign based on racist policies, I have little sympathy for your claims that you're being unfairly tarred as racist.

Name a specific racist policy that the Trump administration has implemented. No one takes your virtue signaling seriously.

Wait, are you accepting that he's a racist candidate who ran a racist campaign, but protesting the characterization of racist policies?

How about the policy of defending Nazis?  Was that racist enough for you?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: runbikerun on December 04, 2017, 11:45:42 AM
If you vote for a racist candidate running a racist campaign based on racist policies, I have little sympathy for your claims that you're being unfairly tarred as racist.

Name a specific racist policy that the Trump administration has implemented. No one takes your virtue signaling seriously.

I'm not bothering with anyone who thinks using the phrase 'virtue signalling' means they've made a point.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: surfhb on December 04, 2017, 11:48:36 AM
If you vote for a racist candidate running a racist campaign based on racist policies, I have little sympathy for your claims that you're being unfairly tarred as racist.

Name a specific racist policy that the Trump administration has implemented. No one takes your virtue signaling seriously.

Oh Stop it!    Obviously no one is talking about Trump proposing blatantly racist polices.    We have laws and courts for stuff like this.   

Were talking about the power of his words and rhetoric
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Kris on December 04, 2017, 11:54:58 AM
I have three questions for all the non-racist Trump supporters on here.

1) Do you believe Barack Obama was born in the United States?

2) Do you believe Barack Obama is a Christian?

3) Do you believe it is acceptable that Donald Trump has asserted on numerous occasions that Obama was not born in this country and has suggested repeatedly that he is actually a Muslim?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: cliffhanger on December 04, 2017, 11:55:53 AM
If you vote for a racist candidate running a racist campaign based on racist policies, I have little sympathy for your claims that you're being unfairly tarred as racist.

Name a specific racist policy that the Trump administration has implemented. No one takes your virtue signaling seriously.

Wait, are you accepting that he's a racist candidate who ran a racist campaign, but protesting the characterization of racist policies?

How about the policy of defending Nazis?  Was that racist enough for you?

No, I don't accept the assertion that he was a racist candidate who ran a racist campaign. My point is that if he is truly racist, why is there no evidence that he has used his presidency to push racist policy? People use racist so much without any underlying evidence that others will stop believe all claims of racism. The only people harmed by this are the real victims of racist acts.

I've never supported Trump's statements of the 'good people on both sides' etc. To say he ran a racist campaign on this is pretty disingenuous imo
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: runbikerun on December 04, 2017, 12:02:23 PM
If you vote for a racist candidate running a racist campaign based on racist policies, I have little sympathy for your claims that you're being unfairly tarred as racist.

Name a specific racist policy that the Trump administration has implemented. No one takes your virtue signaling seriously.

Wait, are you accepting that he's a racist candidate who ran a racist campaign, but protesting the characterization of racist policies?

How about the policy of defending Nazis?  Was that racist enough for you?

No, I don't accept the assertion that he was a racist candidate who ran a racist campaign. My point is that if he is truly racist, why is there no evidence that he has used his presidency to push racist policy? People use racist so much without any underlying evidence that others will stop believe all claims of racism. The only people harmed by this are the real victims of racist acts.

I've never supported Trump's statements of the 'good people on both sides' etc. To say he ran a racist campaign on this is pretty disingenuous imo

He ran a racist campaign by:

-Claiming Obama wasn't really American.
-Scapegoating Mexicans.
-Accusing Gonzalo Curiel of bias based on his ethnic heritage (which was defined by Paul Ryan as "the textbook definition of a racist comment.")
-Scapegoating Muslims.
-Insulting a Gold Star family on the basis of their religion.
-Instituting a travel ban as one of his very first actions which specifically targeted Muslims.

But all of this is neither here nor there, because you no doubt know about all of this and don't regard it as racist. There's nothing to be gained from discussing this, because your definition of racism is so narrow as to be meaningless.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: LibrarIan on December 04, 2017, 12:10:12 PM

He ran a racist campaign by:

-Claiming Obama wasn't really American.
-Scapegoating Mexicans.
-Accusing Gonzalo Curiel of bias based on his ethnic heritage (which was defined by Paul Ryan as "the textbook definition of a racist comment.")
-Scapegoating Muslims.
-Insulting a Gold Star family on the basis of their religion.
-Instituting a travel ban as one of his very first actions which specifically targeted Muslims.

But all of this is neither here nor there, because you no doubt know about all of this and don't regard it as racist. There's nothing to be gained from discussing this, because your definition of racism is so narrow as to be meaningless.

About these:

-Claiming Obama wasn't really American. Was this motivated by Barack's race? If so, is he claiming all biracial people aren't American?
-Scapegoating Mexicans. Mexican isn't a race, it's a nationality
-Accusing Gonzalo Curiel of bias based on his ethnic heritage (which was defined by Paul Ryan as "the textbook definition of a racist comment.") Without looking into this at all, this one at least sounds like it could be racially motivated. His name sounding Hispanic and his parents being Hispanics from Mexico and all.
-Scapegoating Muslims. Muslims are not a race.
-Insulting a Gold Star family on the basis of their religion. Religion is not a race.
-Instituting a travel ban as one of his very first actions which specifically targeted Muslims. Muslims are not a race.


So of these, only one seems like it can be specifically racial. Are these others silly and ridiculous? Yes. Nationalistic to the point of absurdity? Possibly. Just all-around ignorant? Yes. Specifically racist? Seems unlikely for most of them.

Although to be fair, I am not certain Trump is "with it" enough to separate one's religion from their race, or vice versa, so *shrug*.

Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Just Joe on December 04, 2017, 12:14:08 PM
The narrative that anyone who votes Republican is automatically racist, xenophobic etc. is certainly pervasive, but it's also unbelievably insulting and frankly childish.

Over the past year, I have had a personal shift in my overarching mindset that has affected what I think and how I act, particularly when it comes to politics and general social issues. Last year, I may not have called a Trump supporter a racist to their face, but I was definitely thinking it. I was so quick to judge without considering what other reasons could exist for making someone want to align with him (even if they were not good reasons). I do not rush to judgment anymore.

I think this speaks to extreme polarity though. I have what I'd consider to be far-left friends who think anyone right of here is a racist, fascist, Nazi sympathizer. I also have friends who think anyone who didn't vote Trump are tree-hugging Lefty libtards. (Their words, not mine.)

The inability of people to empathize with or understand people from outside their particular section of the spectrum is an issue that I doubt will ever be fixed.

When I listen to snide thinly veiled racist comments about a black president for 8 years then I can be pretty confident about who around me are racists and now with their support for Trump - misogynists. These are not people whom I believe value honesty, manners or fairness. I have no idea how they rationalize their purported Christian beliefs with their support of Trump.

I hear them lecture about all sorts of sins and then profess their support for Trump. Just mind boggling.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: cliffhanger on December 04, 2017, 12:16:43 PM
If you vote for a racist candidate running a racist campaign based on racist policies, I have little sympathy for your claims that you're being unfairly tarred as racist.

Name a specific racist policy that the Trump administration has implemented. No one takes your virtue signaling seriously.

Wait, are you accepting that he's a racist candidate who ran a racist campaign, but protesting the characterization of racist policies?

How about the policy of defending Nazis?  Was that racist enough for you?

No, I don't accept the assertion that he was a racist candidate who ran a racist campaign. My point is that if he is truly racist, why is there no evidence that he has used his presidency to push racist policy? People use racist so much without any underlying evidence that others will stop believe all claims of racism. The only people harmed by this are the real victims of racist acts.

I've never supported Trump's statements of the 'good people on both sides' etc. To say he ran a racist campaign on this is pretty disingenuous imo

He ran a racist campaign by:

-Claiming Obama wasn't really American.
-Scapegoating Mexicans.
-Accusing Gonzalo Curiel of bias based on his ethnic heritage (which was defined by Paul Ryan as "the textbook definition of a racist comment.")
-Scapegoating Muslims.
-Insulting a Gold Star family on the basis of their religion.
-Instituting a travel ban as one of his very first actions which specifically targeted Muslims.

But all of this is neither here nor there, because you no doubt know about all of this and don't regard it as racist. There's nothing to be gained from discussing this, because your definition of racism is so narrow as to be meaningless.

Do you want to go through each of these statements individually? I can only offer what I think the reasoning behind his statements were, and how they are not necessarily racist. I do not claim that I support what he said or how he said it. Keep in mind the OP's original question and my answer to it;

It's an honest question.  I'm really curious as to whether anyone voted republican and now regrets it because:
...
6.  General lack of decorum
...

6. Don't like it. D-

This really isn't the proper topic to discuss it though, since this has been rehashed over and over.

I'll give another reason why I do not regret voting for Trump. Folks in the topic have personally attacked me several times already without any underlying evidence to back up their claims. They've insinuated that I'm uneducated, don't care about the environment, racist. My vote for Trump was more reactionary than based on policy, unfortunately. I'm going to continue pushing back against those who are willing to make such ridiculous claims.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: runbikerun on December 04, 2017, 12:21:48 PM

He ran a racist campaign by:

-Claiming Obama wasn't really American.
-Scapegoating Mexicans.
-Accusing Gonzalo Curiel of bias based on his ethnic heritage (which was defined by Paul Ryan as "the textbook definition of a racist comment.")
-Scapegoating Muslims.
-Insulting a Gold Star family on the basis of their religion.
-Instituting a travel ban as one of his very first actions which specifically targeted Muslims.

But all of this is neither here nor there, because you no doubt know about all of this and don't regard it as racist. There's nothing to be gained from discussing this, because your definition of racism is so narrow as to be meaningless.

About these:

-Claiming Obama wasn't really American. Was this motivated by Barack's race? If so, is he claiming all biracial people aren't American?
-Scapegoating Mexicans. Mexican isn't a race, it's a nationality
-Accusing Gonzalo Curiel of bias based on his ethnic heritage (which was defined by Paul Ryan as "the textbook definition of a racist comment.") Without looking into this at all, this one at least sounds like it could be racially motivated. His name sounding Hispanic and his parents being Hispanics from Mexico and all.
-Scapegoating Muslims. Muslims are not a race.
-Insulting a Gold Star family on the basis of their religion. Religion is not a race.
-Instituting a travel ban as one of his very first actions which specifically targeted Muslims. Muslims are not a race.


So of these, only one seems like it can be specifically racial. Are these others silly and ridiculous? Yes. Nationalistic to the point of absurdity? Possibly. Just all-around ignorant? Yes. Specifically racist? Seems unlikely for most of them.

Although to be fair, I am not certain Trump is "with it" enough to separate one's religion from their race, or vice versa, so *shrug*.

Assuming I concede the truth of every argument you make, that changes Trump to a bigoted candidate running a bigoted campaign based on bigoted policies. Is that any better?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 04, 2017, 12:24:20 PM
I'll give another reason why I do not regret voting for Trump. Folks in the topic have personally attacked me several times already without any underlying evidence to back up their claims. They've insinuated that I'm uneducated, don't care about the environment, racist. My vote for Trump was more reactionary than based on policy, unfortunately. I'm going to continue pushing back against those who are willing to make such ridiculous claims.

Because, this might be a shock, candidates are elected largely because of the policies they promise to enact.

I know, I know...novel concept in a democracy.  Supporting a candidate = supporting at least most of their policies.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: LibrarIan on December 04, 2017, 12:25:03 PM
Assuming I concede the truth of every argument you make, that changes Trump to a bigoted candidate running a bigoted campaign based on bigoted policies. Is that any better?

It would at least do society the benefit of not minimizing the seriousness of racism and claiming certain behaviors or actions are racist. I do not want actual racism watered down with claims like these.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: runbikerun on December 04, 2017, 12:36:39 PM
Assuming I concede the truth of every argument you make, that changes Trump to a bigoted candidate running a bigoted campaign based on bigoted policies. Is that any better?

It would at least do society the benefit of not minimizing the seriousness of racism and claiming certain behaviors or actions are racist. I do not want actual racism watered down with claims like these.

The stuff Trump has been doing isn't lesser than racism. It's a marginally different shade of vicious bigotry, and calling it racism is a very mild category error, not a whitewashing of racial animus.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: cliffhanger on December 04, 2017, 12:37:39 PM
I'll give another reason why I do not regret voting for Trump. Folks in the topic have personally attacked me several times already without any underlying evidence to back up their claims. They've insinuated that I'm uneducated, don't care about the environment, racist. My vote for Trump was more reactionary than based on policy, unfortunately. I'm going to continue pushing back against those who are willing to make such ridiculous claims.

Because, this might be a shock, candidates are elected largely because of the policies they promise to enact.

I know, I know...novel concept in a democracy.  Supporting a candidate = supporting at least most of their policies.

I don't think this is necessarily exact. You can go out on the street and tell people a bunch a Trump policies/quotes, but say they are Clinton policies/quotes. They will say they support them.

https://youtu.be/IzC-l7tovFk (https://youtu.be/IzC-l7tovFk)

You are, or course, correct that policies matter. But a large part of this election in particular was cultural, more so than any I've paid attention to.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: LibrarIan on December 04, 2017, 12:42:22 PM
Assuming I concede the truth of every argument you make, that changes Trump to a bigoted candidate running a bigoted campaign based on bigoted policies. Is that any better?

It would at least do society the benefit of not minimizing the seriousness of racism and claiming certain behaviors or actions are racist. I do not want actual racism watered down with claims like these.

The stuff Trump has been doing isn't lesser than racism. It's a marginally different shade of vicious bigotry, and calling it racism is a very mild category error, not a whitewashing of racial animus.

I do not disagree with you that he is a bigoted prick. But categorization in this case matters. Calling some of these things racism undercuts the real arguments and points you want to make, because people may write your words off since what you're describing isn't actually racism. It doesn't matter if what Trump is doing is better or worse than racism, it matters that you look like you know what you're talking about when you call him out. And I again insist that this type of rhetoric waters down actual cases of racism.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: runbikerun on December 04, 2017, 12:50:35 PM
I'm comfortable that people whose opinions I have any respect for don't rush to discount my words when I describe Trump as a racist rather than as a definite bigot and almost certain racist who's on record has having said openly racist things
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: LibrarIan on December 04, 2017, 12:56:08 PM
I'm comfortable that people whose opinions I have any respect for don't rush to discount my words when I describe Trump as a racist rather than as a definite bigot and almost certain racist who's on record has having said openly racist things

You may have respect for their opinions and hold them in high regard, but if those same people offer your opinions respect when you make a claim while not providing any evidence of worth, it raises a lot of questions in my mind. Do these people not value intellectual honesty? Facts? Evidence? If I offer opinions to others and offer poor evidence, I'd have more respect for those people if they found my claims dubious at best.

EDIT: I realized after rereading this that it could come off really combative. That wasn't my intent. But I'll leave it as is.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 04, 2017, 01:22:03 PM
I have three questions for all the non-racist Trump supporters on here.

1) Do you believe Barack Obama was born in the United States?

2) Do you believe Barack Obama is a Christian?

3) Do you believe it is acceptable that Donald Trump has asserted on numerous occasions that Obama was not born in this country and has suggested repeatedly that he is actually a Muslim?

My money is you get zero genuine responses to your questions here from Trump voters.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Fireball on December 04, 2017, 01:33:11 PM
7. I'm not aware of any harm or potential harm to the environment that Trump has done.

Seems like there is some harm or potential harm to the environment here since he's removing protections to national monuments in favor of oil/gas drilling.

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42226752
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: fluffmuffin on December 04, 2017, 01:55:51 PM
Your experience is really interesting for me and I have to admit that mine has been the opposite. I'm quite liberal but with a 90% very conservative, trump-voting family.

I have historically given my family the benefit of the doubt when it comes to voting for the current republican party - they are my family. I love them and obviously don't want to think of them as holding beliefs that are anathema to me .

But over the last year (and if I'm honest - the last several years) I have heard increasingly xenophobic and bigoted language coming from my loved ones. I'm having a hard time giving them the benefit of the doubt anymore. When folks (who ancestors for fought for the union in the civil war) begin to talk about "protecting our heritage" in the form of confederate flags or saying that the liberals in Charlottesville shouldn't have protested or (with the straw that broke this camel's back) called Obama "that arrogant black Muslim" I have to admit that there might be racism (or at least Xenophobia) at play here.

And by defending my family for years and saying that they are just strongly anti-abortion I feel like I haven't been doing anyone any favors. I am barely holding it together this holiday season.

Right there with you, StarBright. My two family members who voted for Trump are racist (birthers; believe POC shot by police deserve it; that BLM are a terrorist organization; that the Civil War wasn't about slavery and that some Black people were better off in the Confederacy), xenophobic ("build the wall!" with a delicious side of irony in that they both employ undocumented workers; want to kick out DACA students), and Islamophobic (explicitly want to marginalize/ban Muslim individuals; believe that Islam is a fundamentally violent religion). I don't know whether they've always held these repugnant views, but didn't feel comfortable expressing them until Trump and the far-right wing of the Republican party normalized it; or whether Trump et al. assisted in their bolt to the right. I could rattle off more examples for each of those categories, and don't have the emotional energy to dip my toe into the sludge of misogyny, homophobia, and transphobia.

Neither regrets voting for Trump. One is disappointed that he hasn't done more to drain the swamp/expel Muslims/etc, but he was never going to vote for that lying shrew Hillary. I've done my best to be empathetic and thoughtful and see things from their perspective, and I don't think all Trump voters are AS racist/Islamophobic/etc as the two that I'm closest to...but there's no way around the fact that every single Trump voter saw a campaign that was racist, Islamophobic, anti-disability, and misogynistic, and still voted for him. That's a tacit endorsement of those beliefs.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on December 04, 2017, 02:00:11 PM
Someone mentioned Nixon as a comparison for Trump earlier in this thread. I don't that's accurate. He's a lot more like Warren G. Harding in my estimation. The 1920s were a time of roaring stock markets, arrogant wealth, and social division that ended with the Great Depression. I'll let you draw your own conclusions about our near future.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Dabnasty on December 04, 2017, 02:08:22 PM
To those in this thread piling on and attacking Trump voters, you're defeating what I believe was OP's purpose of having a real discussion. If all you want to do is attack, start your own thread. I understand the frustration you feel but all you're doing is playing whack-a-mole with anyone who dares peek their head out of the ground to have an honest conversation. Even if someone's reasoning is flawed, you need to understand it before you can debate it.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: clutchy on December 04, 2017, 02:13:31 PM
To those in this thread piling on and attacking Trump voters, you're defeating what I believe was OP's purpose of having a real discussion. If all you want to do is attack, start your own thread. I understand the frustration you feel but all you're doing is playing whack-a-mole with anyone who dares peek their head out of the ground to have an honest conversation. Even if someone's reasoning is flawed, you need to understand it before you can debate it.


I've voted republican all my life but couldn't do it this time.  I ended up voting for Gary Johnson. 

My biggest issue is that the democrats have no interest in me as a constituent.  I do better under republicans but I tend to care more about the social issues the democrats support like net neutrality and more progressive tax plans(even though it's worse for me). 

I have no interest in living in a wildly unfair society. 

but this straight non-minority gendered white male has no interest in voting for democrats until they start focusing on the core and stop playing identity politics.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: runbikerun on December 04, 2017, 02:25:07 PM
I'm comfortable that people whose opinions I have any respect for don't rush to discount my words when I describe Trump as a racist rather than as a definite bigot and almost certain racist who's on record has having said openly racist things

You may have respect for their opinions and hold them in high regard, but if those same people offer your opinions respect when you make a claim while not providing any evidence of worth, it raises a lot of questions in my mind. Do these people not value intellectual honesty? Facts? Evidence? If I offer opinions to others and offer poor evidence, I'd have more respect for those people if they found my claims dubious at best.

EDIT: I realized after rereading this that it could come off really combative. That wasn't my intent. But I'll leave it as is.

The people I'm referencing are mostly former university debaters, with a couple of world finalists and a world champion among them. There's also a fair few legal professionals and academics. By and large, they are extremely interested in the value of words and the power of persuasive argument.

But that's neither here nor there. We're talking about a man who was sued by the Justice Department for discriminating against black tenants, who spent an obscene amount of money to demand that the Central Park Five be executed (and never apologised following their acquital), who made himself the public face of the claim that America's first black president wasn't really American, and who was called out for racism by the head of his own party during his own election campaign. He's a racist and a bigot.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: partgypsy on December 04, 2017, 02:25:36 PM
My impressions of trump voters comes from message boards and responses to articles, where their statements are things like killary, she lost, the liberals are crying, and ignorant statements. I work with veterans and two times in the last couple months, maybe because I'm a blonde female, white older men have come up to me to say things like glad we have trump, followed by something atrocious like got that Muslim out of here, or gesturing to my fellow employees who are black, look at all these blacks, it disgusts me. Trump's going to get rid of these folks, while I feel the color leave my face. There are many reasons I feel trump is unqualified to be president. One of the smaller being signalling the end of civil society, and any sense of a unified values and goals and commonalities in our country.

I don't know if you want to call it racist, bigoted, what have you, but Trump has been signalling, unless you are part of his base, you are not a "real American" you are a 2nd class citizen. This includes everyone from government workers, scientists, Democrats, as well as African Americans, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, immigrants, Muslim, and especially, poor people. He has contempt for anyone not like him.

And he is NOT a patriot, and does not represent American values. He did not serve, none of his kids served, his father was arrested at a white supremacist/Nazi rally, and he has said things as I work at the VA I find personally offensive, such as McCain is not a real hero because he was a prisoner of war, he knows more than the generals, and casting aspersions on parents of  medal of honor recipients. He has no honor. No clue about personal sacrifice, or sacrifice for one's country. He is self-serving and lies constantly. Not white lies or shading, bald faced lies. That alone make him unfit to be the President, and Commander in Chief.   
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Dabnasty on December 04, 2017, 02:41:05 PM
Race, Ethnicity and religion are distinct identifiers but they also have significant overlap. While being anti Muslim may not technically be racist, the majority of those who hold contempt for Muslims are also making judgments based on the color of their skin and where they were born. Among people I know racism and bigotry go hand in hand so it's hard not to see them as one in the same.

This comes into play with Obama's birth certificate and the conspiracy theory that he is a Muslim as well. If he was a white man, do you really think the birther conspiracy would have taken off the way it did? Certain people, who were in fact racist whether they know it or not, were looking for a way to discredit a black person and this was the answer. Others may have joined in because he was a democrat and not because of his skin color so yes, accusing everyone who believed the conspiracy of racism would be incorrect, but that feeling is not without basis.

So it's difficult enough to define race, but then we have the question of what is racism? I would imagine when someone is accused of being racist what they hear is "you think less of other races because of the color of their skin" to which they might respond "no I don't, that would be silly". But what the accuser really means is "you think less of a group of people based on what some people in that group have done and even worse based on what you think certain people in that group have done". For example I've had the conversation more than once where someone supports profiling of middle easterners by the TSA and says "well I'm not racist, I just think that we should search the people who are most likely to be terrorists". To them, their logic is sound but in reality there are no statistics to support that opinion. To me, the fact that they accepted the idea that middle easterners are more likely to be terrorists without doing the research to back it up does make them racist but in a much different way than just hating someone for their skin color/religion/ethnicity.

As someone mentioned earlier WE ARE ALL RACIST. Arguing about whether someone is or isn't racist is pointless because it's a sliding scale. Not only that, it's a 3-dimensional sliding scale.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: A Definite Beta Guy on December 04, 2017, 02:54:14 PM
I do not regret voting for him at all.  I was initially put off by his manner etc. Generally can't stand watching the narcissistic blowhard. Voted Cruz in the primaries. I still don't like who he is but I'm thrilled with what he's DOING.

In retrospect I'm extremely glad I had the opportunity to vote for the Great Orange Swamp-Drainer and will do it again in 3yrs! For the first time since at least Reagan we have an unapologetic hard-charging dam' the torpedoes Patriot in the White House.

And quit calling me racist. Just proves you've got nothing of substance, so let's sink to the worst of all personal attacks: good old tried-n-true racism, maybe stir in some misogyny for flavor and make snide comments about the South while you're at it. Easy to throw the accusations, placates the ego, places the opposition on defense, and most importantly, prevents any intellectual discourse.
I'm not sure why you're excited about Trump. He seems patriotic enough, but he's an ineffective President and highly polarizing. There are other candidates who would have done a better job (and at this point I might revisit my decision to prefer Trump over Cruz).

You can't really "drain the swamp" just by asserting it. You need to work within the existing power structures.

Quote
1) Do you believe Barack Obama was born in the United States?

2) Do you believe Barack Obama is a Christian?

3) Do you believe it is acceptable that Donald Trump has asserted on numerous occasions that Obama was not born in this country and has suggested repeatedly that he is actually a Muslim?
1. Yeah.
2. No, not really. He seems like he's probably one of those Cafeteria Christians, and probably goes to church for the same reason he doesn't smoke: Michelle badgers him about it. Obama does not strike as a True Believer. I am guessing you are getting at whether I think he's a secret Muslim: No.
3. Acceptable in what sense? It's not the behavior of polite society, so I don't support it.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 04, 2017, 02:59:08 PM
My biggest issue is that the democrats have no interest in me as a constituent.  I do better under republicans but I tend to care more about the social issues the democrats support like net neutrality and more progressive tax plans(even though it's worse for me). 

I have no interest in living in a wildly unfair society. 

but this straight non-minority gendered white male has no interest in voting for democrats until they start focusing on the core and stop playing identity politics.

What, exactly, are the Democrats doing wrong?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: cliffhanger on December 04, 2017, 03:05:25 PM
7. I'm not aware of any harm or potential harm to the environment that Trump has done.

Seems like there is some harm or potential harm to the environment here since he's removing protections to national monuments in favor of oil/gas drilling.

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42226752

Thanks for finding this, as this topic often challenges my principles. How do we balance the conservation of our land while continuing to allow states and local communities the freedom to choose the best use of that land?

To the best of my knowledge, Bears Ears was already public land (mix of federal and state) when President Obama designated it a National Monument last year. Many of the state republicans believe it was an executive overreach to make this designation, and had been in the process of writing legislation to deal with the land (mix of conservation and development).

Quite frankly, I don't know the answer to what is right. I can think of a few scenarios where I would be supportive and non-supportive of Trump's actions. I also couldn't find if the land is turned over to the state or what the plan is. I simply think there are not enough facts to make an informed decision.

Supportive: It's possible Obama overreached in his designation and included vast swaths of land that are not in the spirit of the antiquities act:

Quote
That the President of the United States is hereby authorized, in his discretion, to declare by public proclamation historic landmarks, historic and prehistoric structures, and other objects of historic or scientific interest that are situated upon the lands owned or controlled by the Government of the United States to be national monuments, and may reserve as a part thereof parcels of land, the limits of which in all cases shall be confined to the smallest area compatible with proper care and management of the objects to be protected

If the land Trump is leaving in the National Monument fall within the scope of the Antiquities Act, I would be supportive of his action.

Opposed to: It's also possible that Trump is overreaching by shrinking this monument. It's possible that he's opening up culturally and historically significant places to development, which I would not be supportive of.

Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: clutchy on December 04, 2017, 03:33:39 PM
My biggest issue is that the democrats have no interest in me as a constituent.  I do better under republicans but I tend to care more about the social issues the democrats support like net neutrality and more progressive tax plans(even though it's worse for me). 

I have no interest in living in a wildly unfair society. 

but this straight non-minority gendered white male has no interest in voting for democrats until they start focusing on the core and stop playing identity politics.

What, exactly, are the Democrats doing wrong?

playing identity politics and focusing in smaller fringe groups instead of driving a national agenda.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: jrhampt on December 04, 2017, 03:36:14 PM
Smaller fringe groups like...women?  I think they're overdoing it on the transgender stuff, but most of the groups they've been focusing on are not exactly fringe.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Wexler on December 04, 2017, 03:47:03 PM
My biggest issue is that the democrats have no interest in me as a constituent.  I do better under republicans but I tend to care more about the social issues the democrats support like net neutrality and more progressive tax plans(even though it's worse for me). 

I have no interest in living in a wildly unfair society. 

but this straight non-minority gendered white male has no interest in voting for democrats until they start focusing on the core and stop playing identity politics.

What, exactly, are the Democrats doing wrong?

playing identity politics and focusing in smaller fringe groups instead of driving a national agenda.

So we can't have net neutrality because the Democrats didn't suck your dick long enough? 


MOD EDIT: Uh, no. Read forum rule #1
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: FINate on December 04, 2017, 03:58:38 PM
[wishing there was a 'leave thread' feature...shoulda known better]
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: SwordGuy on December 04, 2017, 04:28:54 PM
Smaller fringe groups like...women?  ... but most of the groups they've been focusing on are not exactly fringe.

Small as in "needs aren't important enough to consider", not small as in "not many of them".   
Hope that clarifies the GOP platform for you.


As for the OP's question, No, I don't regret voting Republican.   I vote in the Republican primaries for the most centrist, least fundamentalist, least corporate lackey, and least neo-fascist whack job on the ballot.  I do that in the hope that we might get less objectionable candidates from that party.   

Then I vote Democrat in the general election because the reasonable GOP candidates rarely get past the primaries. :(
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: surfhb on December 04, 2017, 05:24:37 PM

He ran a racist campaign by:

-Claiming Obama wasn't really American.
-Scapegoating Mexicans.
-Accusing Gonzalo Curiel of bias based on his ethnic heritage (which was defined by Paul Ryan as "the textbook definition of a racist comment.")
-Scapegoating Muslims.
-Insulting a Gold Star family on the basis of their religion.
-Instituting a travel ban as one of his very first actions which specifically targeted Muslims.

But all of this is neither here nor there, because you no doubt know about all of this and don't regard it as racist. There's nothing to be gained from discussing this, because your definition of racism is so narrow as to be meaningless.

About these:

-Claiming Obama wasn't really American. Was this motivated by Barack's race? If so, is he claiming all biracial people aren't American?
-Scapegoating Mexicans. Mexican isn't a race, it's a nationality
-Accusing Gonzalo Curiel of bias based on his ethnic heritage (which was defined by Paul Ryan as "the textbook definition of a racist comment.") Without looking into this at all, this one at least sounds like it could be racially motivated. His name sounding Hispanic and his parents being Hispanics from Mexico and all.
-Scapegoating Muslims. Muslims are not a race.
-Insulting a Gold Star family on the basis of their religion. Religion is not a race.
-Instituting a travel ban as one of his very first actions which specifically targeted Muslims. Muslims are not a race.


So of these, only one seems like it can be specifically racial. Are these others silly and ridiculous? Yes. Nationalistic to the point of absurdity? Possibly. Just all-around ignorant? Yes. Specifically racist? Seems unlikely for most of them.

Although to be fair, I am not certain Trump is "with it" enough to separate one's religion from their race, or vice versa, so *shrug*.

Assuming I concede the truth of every argument you make, that changes Trump to a bigoted candidate running a bigoted campaign based on bigoted policies. Is that any better?

LOL   Shit!   Touche
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: scottish on December 04, 2017, 07:48:42 PM
I find it hard to believe that Trump was elected by a passel of racist, xenophobic Americans because he would put the damn Muslims/Mexicans/Blacks whatever back where they belonged.

I prefer to believe that his supporters are feeling anxiety about:
- economics: job loss (perceived as to developing countries, but also from automation and changing demand)
- national identity:   the US used to be the biggest & best superpower in the world.   China has largely caught up.
- cultural changes:   the internet has changed everything in the way people interact
and so on.

Trump's campaign played to these anxieties.   He blamed the Democrats for all this stuff happening and promised to put things back to the way they were.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: clutchy on December 04, 2017, 08:04:55 PM
My biggest issue is that the democrats have no interest in me as a constituent.  I do better under republicans but I tend to care more about the social issues the democrats support like net neutrality and more progressive tax plans(even though it's worse for me). 

I have no interest in living in a wildly unfair society. 

but this straight non-minority gendered white male has no interest in voting for democrats until they start focusing on the core and stop playing identity politics.

What, exactly, are the Democrats doing wrong?

playing identity politics and focusing in smaller fringe groups instead of driving a national agenda.

So we can't have net neutrality because the Democrats didn't suck your dick long enough?
 

They didn't even give me a tickle man...
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on December 04, 2017, 08:10:08 PM
I'm amused that pretty much all the financial benefits of Trump's "election" have basically gone to Clinton's voters. Now that he's basically defunded the ACA and killed his own constituents' health insurance to give tax cuts to corporations, Clinton's college-educated white collar investor voters with employer-provided insurance get to enjoy larger dividends. I don't think Trump's voters really thought through what they were doing.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: clutchy on December 04, 2017, 08:11:52 PM
Smaller fringe groups like...women?  I think they're overdoing it on the transgender stuff, but most of the groups they've been focusing on are not exactly fringe.

in the attempt to big tent every specific group they've forgetting what it means to be American. 

Focusing on things that differentiate us instead of unite us.  It just sucks. 


Republicans gave up ruling what 20 years ago but atleast I get to keep more of my money. 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: JLee on December 04, 2017, 08:12:49 PM
I find it hard to believe that Trump was elected by a passel of racist, xenophobic Americans because he would put the damn Muslims/Mexicans/Blacks whatever back where they belonged.

I prefer to believe that his supporters are feeling anxiety about:
- economics: job loss (perceived as to developing countries, but also from automation and changing demand)
- national identity:   the US used to be the biggest & best superpower in the world.   China has largely caught up.
- cultural changes:   the internet has changed everything in the way people interact
and so on.

Trump's campaign played to these anxieties.   He blamed the Democrats for all this stuff happening and promised to put things back to the way they were.

If by "national identity" and "cultural changes" you mean that we're ever so slowly inching our way towards a society that's not completely and wholly dominated by rich/white/straight/men, then perhaps you have a point there.

Smaller fringe groups like...women?  I think they're overdoing it on the transgender stuff, but most of the groups they've been focusing on are not exactly fringe.

in the attempt to big tent every specific group they've forgetting what it means to be American. 

Focusing on things that differentiate us instead of unite us.  It just sucks. 


Republicans gave up ruling what 20 years ago but atleast I get to keep more of my money.


You're either part of the 1% or woefully misinformed about recent events.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: palerider1858 on December 05, 2017, 12:05:49 AM
No regrets on my (R) vote.

I have no idea if I would vote differently next time not knowing the future political landscape of events, issues and candidates. Are you asking how we would vote if 2020 is a choice between Hillary, Trump and Johnson again?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: LibrarIan on December 05, 2017, 06:32:22 AM
I'm comfortable that people whose opinions I have any respect for don't rush to discount my words when I describe Trump as a racist rather than as a definite bigot and almost certain racist who's on record has having said openly racist things

You may have respect for their opinions and hold them in high regard, but if those same people offer your opinions respect when you make a claim while not providing any evidence of worth, it raises a lot of questions in my mind. Do these people not value intellectual honesty? Facts? Evidence? If I offer opinions to others and offer poor evidence, I'd have more respect for those people if they found my claims dubious at best.

EDIT: I realized after rereading this that it could come off really combative. That wasn't my intent. But I'll leave it as is.

The people I'm referencing are mostly former university debaters, with a couple of world finalists and a world champion among them. There's also a fair few legal professionals and academics. By and large, they are extremely interested in the value of words and the power of persuasive argument.

But that's neither here nor there. We're talking about a man who was sued by the Justice Department for discriminating against black tenants, who spent an obscene amount of money to demand that the Central Park Five be executed (and never apologised following their acquital), who made himself the public face of the claim that America's first black president wasn't really American, and who was called out for racism by the head of his own party during his own election campaign. He's a racist and a bigot.

So again, to my point, when making claims during a conversation/debate/argument/whatever about anything (including Trump), back your claim with things relevant to your claim. You claimed he was racist and then proceeded to give numerous points that actually had nothing to do with racism. This kind of approach will turn your audience off because it makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

If I have to spell it out for you, I'm not arguing against your claim that he is racist. I am arguing in favor of citing specific, accurate examples that demonstrate your claim. That is all.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: NoStacheOhio on December 05, 2017, 06:50:23 AM
I'm comfortable that people whose opinions I have any respect for don't rush to discount my words when I describe Trump as a racist rather than as a definite bigot and almost certain racist who's on record has having said openly racist things

You may have respect for their opinions and hold them in high regard, but if those same people offer your opinions respect when you make a claim while not providing any evidence of worth, it raises a lot of questions in my mind. Do these people not value intellectual honesty? Facts? Evidence? If I offer opinions to others and offer poor evidence, I'd have more respect for those people if they found my claims dubious at best.

EDIT: I realized after rereading this that it could come off really combative. That wasn't my intent. But I'll leave it as is.

The people I'm referencing are mostly former university debaters, with a couple of world finalists and a world champion among them. There's also a fair few legal professionals and academics. By and large, they are extremely interested in the value of words and the power of persuasive argument.

But that's neither here nor there. We're talking about a man who was sued by the Justice Department for discriminating against black tenants, who spent an obscene amount of money to demand that the Central Park Five be executed (and never apologised following their acquital), who made himself the public face of the claim that America's first black president wasn't really American, and who was called out for racism by the head of his own party during his own election campaign. He's a racist and a bigot.

So again, to my point, when making claims during a conversation/debate/argument/whatever about anything (including Trump), back your claim with things relevant to your claim. You claimed he was racist and then proceeded to give numerous points that actually had nothing to do with racism. This kind of approach will turn your audience off because it makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

If I have to spell it out for you, I'm not arguing against your claim that he is racist. I am arguing in favor of citing specific, accurate examples that demonstrate your claim. That is all.

Are you arguing that Black people are humans therefore it isn't racist? Because that's what it looks like at this point.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: LibrarIan on December 05, 2017, 07:04:43 AM
I'm comfortable that people whose opinions I have any respect for don't rush to discount my words when I describe Trump as a racist rather than as a definite bigot and almost certain racist who's on record has having said openly racist things

You may have respect for their opinions and hold them in high regard, but if those same people offer your opinions respect when you make a claim while not providing any evidence of worth, it raises a lot of questions in my mind. Do these people not value intellectual honesty? Facts? Evidence? If I offer opinions to others and offer poor evidence, I'd have more respect for those people if they found my claims dubious at best.

EDIT: I realized after rereading this that it could come off really combative. That wasn't my intent. But I'll leave it as is.

The people I'm referencing are mostly former university debaters, with a couple of world finalists and a world champion among them. There's also a fair few legal professionals and academics. By and large, they are extremely interested in the value of words and the power of persuasive argument.

But that's neither here nor there. We're talking about a man who was sued by the Justice Department for discriminating against black tenants, who spent an obscene amount of money to demand that the Central Park Five be executed (and never apologised following their acquital), who made himself the public face of the claim that America's first black president wasn't really American, and who was called out for racism by the head of his own party during his own election campaign. He's a racist and a bigot.

So again, to my point, when making claims during a conversation/debate/argument/whatever about anything (including Trump), back your claim with things relevant to your claim. You claimed he was racist and then proceeded to give numerous points that actually had nothing to do with racism. This kind of approach will turn your audience off because it makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

If I have to spell it out for you, I'm not arguing against your claim that he is racist. I am arguing in favor of citing specific, accurate examples that demonstrate your claim. That is all.

Are you arguing that Black people are humans therefore it isn't racist? Because that's what it looks like at this point.


No. I'm arguing that they need to use actual evidence to support a claim. The quoted text above is missing the original context, in which runbikerun said the following specifically about Trump's racism (with my responses in bold):

"-Claiming Obama wasn't really American. Was this motivated by Barack's race? If so, is he claiming all biracial people aren't American?
-Scapegoating Mexicans. Mexican isn't a race, it's a nationality
-Accusing Gonzalo Curiel of bias based on his ethnic heritage (which was defined by Paul Ryan as "the textbook definition of a racist comment.") Without looking into this at all, this one at least sounds like it could be racially motivated. His name sounding Hispanic and his parents being Hispanics from Mexico and all.
-Scapegoating Muslims. Muslims are not a race.
-Insulting a Gold Star family on the basis of their religion. Religion is not a race.
-Instituting a travel ban as one of his very first actions which specifically targeted Muslims. Muslims are not a race."

While I would agree that Trump is a bigoted prick, most of the stuff they listed has nothing to do with racism, and it runs the risk of their opponents (whomever they are) ignoring them because they didn't actually provide a list of evidence about Trump's racism.

It's getting surprising to me that people have so much of an issue with this concept.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: NoStacheOhio on December 05, 2017, 07:17:43 AM
No. I'm arguing that they need to use actual evidence to support a claim. The quoted text above is missing the original context, in which runbikerun said the following specifically about Trump's racism (with my responses in bold):


So the part about housing discrimination, that's not racist?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Kris on December 05, 2017, 07:25:40 AM
I have three questions for all the non-racist Trump supporters on here.

1) Do you believe Barack Obama was born in the United States?

2) Do you believe Barack Obama is a Christian?

3) Do you believe it is acceptable that Donald Trump has asserted on numerous occasions that Obama was not born in this country and has suggested repeatedly that he is actually a Muslim?

My money is you get zero genuine responses to your questions here from Trump voters.

Ha, yeah, they're not exactly jumping out of the woodwork to answer, are they?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: LibrarIan on December 05, 2017, 07:25:49 AM
No. I'm arguing that they need to use actual evidence to support a claim. The quoted text above is missing the original context, in which runbikerun said the following specifically about Trump's racism (with my responses in bold):


So the part about housing discrimination, that's not racist?

Yes, that is a good example that runbikerun definitely could've thrown in their initial list that started this thread derailment.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Kris on December 05, 2017, 07:26:58 AM
I do not regret voting for him at all.  I was initially put off by his manner etc. Generally can't stand watching the narcissistic blowhard. Voted Cruz in the primaries. I still don't like who he is but I'm thrilled with what he's DOING.

In retrospect I'm extremely glad I had the opportunity to vote for the Great Orange Swamp-Drainer and will do it again in 3yrs! For the first time since at least Reagan we have an unapologetic hard-charging dam' the torpedoes Patriot in the White House.

And quit calling me racist. Just proves you've got nothing of substance, so let's sink to the worst of all personal attacks: good old tried-n-true racism, maybe stir in some misogyny for flavor and make snide comments about the South while you're at it. Easy to throw the accusations, placates the ego, places the opposition on defense, and most importantly, prevents any intellectual discourse.
I'm not sure why you're excited about Trump. He seems patriotic enough, but he's an ineffective President and highly polarizing. There are other candidates who would have done a better job (and at this point I might revisit my decision to prefer Trump over Cruz).

You can't really "drain the swamp" just by asserting it. You need to work within the existing power structures.

Quote
1) Do you believe Barack Obama was born in the United States?

2) Do you believe Barack Obama is a Christian?

3) Do you believe it is acceptable that Donald Trump has asserted on numerous occasions that Obama was not born in this country and has suggested repeatedly that he is actually a Muslim?
1. Yeah.
2. No, not really. He seems like he's probably one of those Cafeteria Christians, and probably goes to church for the same reason he doesn't smoke: Michelle badgers him about it. Obama does not strike as a True Believer. I am guessing you are getting at whether I think he's a secret Muslim: No.
3. Acceptable in what sense? It's not the behavior of polite society, so I don't support it.

I see. What gives you the impression that Michelle badgers him about going to church?

And by these criteria, I'm guessing you don't consider Donald Trump a Christian, either?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: runbikerun on December 05, 2017, 07:29:35 AM
The reason this is odd is that in virtually every public sphere (the media, politics etc), there's little meaningful distinction between racism and bigotry. Racism is understood as a subset of bigotry, and a broad subset at that. The birther claims are racist: it's a targeting of American's first black president as not being truly American. Only an absurdly reductionist definition of racism could exclude it.

Likewise, nationality and religious identity are frequently understood as proxies for race, and bigotry based on those is treated as being racist in nature.

But the big thing is this: it's really, really fucking weird to focus manically on the specific use of "racist" as opposed to "bigoted" in a conversation of this nature. As I said, Trump has a long history of racist actions, was called out for racism by the head of his own party, and a huge swathe of his policies are bigoted in a deeply racially tinged way. Getting hung up on the use of the term "racist" when you've already conceded that he's been openly racist is a thoroughly weird choice of priorities. He's a racist and a bigot, and you're arguing over whether a subset of his behaviour is racist or merely bigoted. It's akin to stepping into a debate on whether a politician should resign for cocaine use and posting "He wasn't using cocaine, he was using crack!"
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: bwall on December 05, 2017, 07:40:29 AM
And by these criteria, I'm guessing you don't consider Donald Trump a Christian, either?

I'm always amazed at how people are willing to believe that a man who says "I"m a Christian" is in fact muslim AND at the same time have no problem believing that Mr. "Two Corinthians" knows their values and is willing to stand up for them.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: LibrarIan on December 05, 2017, 07:44:22 AM
Might I suggest this electronic, illustrated debate book to everyone? https://bookofbadarguments.com/

While I agree that there are relationships between race and things like nationality and religion, they are still not the same thing. And to someone who you're arguing or conversing with, it will matter. As someone who has argued/conversed with lots of people of opposing viewpoints due to a nonprofit I help run, I can assure you this. If Trump actually was racist with, say, the "Muslim ban" (and I have no reason to suspect he wasn't), making the claim from the angle of religion will allow someone to write you off. People have a tendency, when faced with an opposing argument, to search for any shred that they can use to dismiss your claims. It's just part of human psychology. Being logically coherent in your approach can avoid this kind of stuff, even if in the end the other person still decides to not agree with you.

That is literally all. Please think critically. By calling into question the approach runbikerun made does mean I disagree with their claims - only their approach. I am only trying to help.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: StarBright on December 05, 2017, 07:45:15 AM
To those in this thread piling on and attacking Trump voters, you're defeating what I believe was OP's purpose of having a real discussion. If all you want to do is attack, start your own thread. I understand the frustration you feel but all you're doing is playing whack-a-mole with anyone who dares peek their head out of the ground to have an honest conversation. Even if someone's reasoning is flawed, you need to understand it before you can debate it.

I think you are right. And while I wouldn't consider my post upthread as an attack, I have removed it in the spirit of not "piling on."
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: runbikerun on December 05, 2017, 07:56:40 AM
Might I suggest this electronic, illustrated debate book to everyone? https://bookofbadarguments.com/

While I agree that there are relationships between race and things like nationality and religion, they are still not the same thing. And to someone who you're arguing or conversing with, it will matter. As someone who has argued/conversed with lots of people of opposing viewpoints due to a nonprofit I help run, I can assure you this. If Trump actually was racist with, say, the "Muslim ban" (and I have no reason to suspect he wasn't), making the claim from the angle of religion will allow someone to write you off. People have a tendency, when faced with an opposing argument, to search for any shred that they can use to dismiss your claims. It's just part of human psychology. Being logically coherent in your approach can avoid this kind of stuff, even if in the end the other person still decides to not agree with you.

That is literally all. Please think critically. By calling into question the approach runbikerun made does mean I disagree with their claims - only their approach. I am only trying to help.

This has gone way too far off topic. I'm not sure the thread is gaining anything from my continued involvement, so am calling it a day.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: J Boogie on December 05, 2017, 08:14:19 AM
I do not regret voting for him at all.  I was initially put off by his manner etc. Generally can't stand watching the narcissistic blowhard. Voted Cruz in the primaries. I still don't like who he is but I'm thrilled with what he's DOING.

In retrospect I'm extremely glad I had the opportunity to vote for the Great Orange Swamp-Drainer and will do it again in 3yrs! For the first time since at least Reagan we have an unapologetic hard-charging dam' the torpedoes Patriot in the White House.

And quit calling me racist. Just proves you've got nothing of substance, so let's sink to the worst of all personal attacks: good old tried-n-true racism, maybe stir in some misogyny for flavor and make snide comments about the South while you're at it. Easy to throw the accusations, placates the ego, places the opposition on defense, and most importantly, prevents any intellectual discourse.
I'm not sure why you're excited about Trump. He seems patriotic enough, but he's an ineffective President and highly polarizing. There are other candidates who would have done a better job (and at this point I might revisit my decision to prefer Trump over Cruz).

You can't really "drain the swamp" just by asserting it. You need to work within the existing power structures.

Quote
1) Do you believe Barack Obama was born in the United States?

2) Do you believe Barack Obama is a Christian?

3) Do you believe it is acceptable that Donald Trump has asserted on numerous occasions that Obama was not born in this country and has suggested repeatedly that he is actually a Muslim?
1. Yeah.
2. No, not really. He seems like he's probably one of those Cafeteria Christians, and probably goes to church for the same reason he doesn't smoke: Michelle badgers him about it. Obama does not strike as a True Believer. I am guessing you are getting at whether I think he's a secret Muslim: No.
3. Acceptable in what sense? It's not the behavior of polite society, so I don't support it.

I see. What gives you the impression that Michelle badgers him about going to church?

And by these criteria, I'm guessing you don't consider Donald Trump a Christian, either?

There was a good This American Life piece about Barack and Michelle and their former pastor Jeremiah Wright.

When his controversial sermons began to play on the news, it put them in a tight spot - either they didn't attend church all that regularly and didn't catch any of his radical sermons, or they listened to his radical sermons and came back every Sunday.

Knowing how skilled of a politician Obama is, his senate and presidential ambitions, how aware he is - it seems MUCH more likely they just didn't attend church very often. But that's a tough thing to admit, it makes it seem like you're not all that committed to your faith and by extension your values and principles.

I imagine Obama is probably a Christian in the way that I have come to be a Christian - embracing Christian values that are beneficial to oneself and society, but not necessarily literally/historically true.

Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Dabnasty on December 05, 2017, 08:23:30 AM

No. I'm arguing that they need to use actual evidence to support a claim. The quoted text above is missing the original context, in which runbikerun said the following specifically about Trump's racism (with my responses in bold):

"-Claiming Obama wasn't really American. Was this motivated by Barack's race? If so, is he claiming all biracial people aren't American?
-Scapegoating Mexicans. Mexican isn't a race, it's a nationality
-Accusing Gonzalo Curiel of bias based on his ethnic heritage (which was defined by Paul Ryan as "the textbook definition of a racist comment.") Without looking into this at all, this one at least sounds like it could be racially motivated. His name sounding Hispanic and his parents being Hispanics from Mexico and all.
-Scapegoating Muslims. Muslims are not a race.
-Insulting a Gold Star family on the basis of their religion. Religion is not a race.
-Instituting a travel ban as one of his very first actions which specifically targeted Muslims. Muslims are not a race."

While I would agree that Trump is a bigoted prick, most of the stuff they listed has nothing to do with racism, and it runs the risk of their opponents (whomever they are) ignoring them because they didn't actually provide a list of evidence about Trump's racism.

It's getting surprising to me that people have so much of an issue with this concept.

Reposting my earlier comment as it was not directed at anyone and you may have missed it:

Race, Ethnicity and religion are distinct identifiers but they also have significant overlap. While being anti Muslim may not technically be racist, the majority of those who hold contempt for Muslims are also making judgments based on the color of their skin and where they were born. Among people I know racism and bigotry go hand in hand so it's hard not to see them as one in the same.

This comes into play with Obama's birth certificate and the conspiracy theory that he is a Muslim as well. If he was a white man, do you really think the birther conspiracy would have taken off the way it did? Certain people, who were in fact racist whether they know it or not, were looking for a way to discredit a black person and this was the answer. Others may have joined in because he was a democrat and not because of his skin color so yes, accusing everyone who believed the conspiracy of racism would be incorrect, but that feeling is not without basis.

So it's difficult enough to define race, but then we have the question of what is racism? I would imagine when someone is accused of being racist what they hear is "you think less of other races because of the color of their skin" to which they might respond "no I don't, that would be silly". But what the accuser really means is "you think less of a group of people based on what some people in that group have done and even worse based on what you think certain people in that group have done". For example I've had the conversation more than once where someone supports profiling of middle easterners by the TSA and says "well I'm not racist, I just think that we should search the people who are most likely to be terrorists". To them, their logic is sound but in reality there are no statistics to support that opinion. To me, the fact that they accepted the idea that middle easterners are more likely to be terrorists without doing the research to back it up does make them racist but in a much different way than just hating someone for their skin color/religion/ethnicity.

As someone mentioned earlier WE ARE ALL RACIST. Arguing about whether someone is or isn't racist is pointless because it's a sliding scale. Not only that, it's a 3-dimensional sliding scale.

I see no point in arguing the semantics around what is and isn't racist in the context of this discussion. Typically I'm all about precise definitions and drilling down to the real meaning of a word, but in this case racism and bigotry are essentially the same. They come from the same place (fear of the unknown/tribal identification) and they lead to the same results (unfair treatment of a group by our society.)

By your standards you might also argue that banning travelers from 7 majority Muslim countries isn't based on religion because only 90-99% of their populations are Muslim, what about the others?. But you do recall that even trump himself called it a Muslim ban. And even if it wasn't, then what? It's an ethnicity ban based on non-existent statistics of terrorism?

When trump and his followers refer to Mexican immigrants what do you picture? White Mexicans coming into the country illegally? He called Mexican immigrants as a group rapists and murderers and when he did so, no one was picturing anything other than a dark skinned Hispanic.

There's no need to distinguish between the types of bigotry because what he and many of his followers are guilty of is varying degrees of populism with a narrow definition of ordinary people. They define ordinary people as straight white Christians, preferably those born as citizens.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: radram on December 05, 2017, 08:29:10 AM
You can't really "drain the swamp" just by asserting it. You need to work within the existing power structures.

With all due respect, this is just outright false:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuGIgf-ICHM
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: radram on December 05, 2017, 08:41:42 AM
Over 100 posts.

0 people who regret THEIR Trump vote (and a few who "Knew Someone" that did). I believe most Trump supporters truly believe he is taking on an incredible task, and that it will take time to get the results they desire. I think that is largely why so many presidents win re-election, regardless of their accomplishments the first 4 years.

I think the OP's question is answered for now. I think the same question posed 4 or 8 years from now would yield a better discussion.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Just Joe on December 05, 2017, 08:54:53 AM
Your experience is really interesting for me and I have to admit that mine has been the opposite. I'm quite liberal but with a 90% very conservative, trump-voting family.

I have historically given my family the benefit of the doubt when it comes to voting for the current republican party - they are my family. I love them and obviously don't want to think of them as holding beliefs that are anathema to me .

But over the last year (and if I'm honest - the last several years) I have heard increasingly xenophobic and bigoted language coming from my loved ones. I'm having a hard time giving them the benefit of the doubt anymore. When folks (who ancestors for fought for the union in the civil war) begin to talk about "protecting our heritage" in the form of confederate flags or saying that the liberals in Charlottesville shouldn't have protested or (with the straw that broke this camel's back) called Obama "that arrogant black Muslim" I have to admit that there might be racism (or at least Xenophobia) at play here.

And by defending my family for years and saying that they are just strongly anti-abortion I feel like I haven't been doing anyone any favors. I am barely holding it together this holiday season.

Right there with you, StarBright. My two family members who voted for Trump are racist (birthers; believe POC shot by police deserve it; that BLM are a terrorist organization; that the Civil War wasn't about slavery and that some Black people were better off in the Confederacy), xenophobic ("build the wall!" with a delicious side of irony in that they both employ undocumented workers; want to kick out DACA students), and Islamophobic (explicitly want to marginalize/ban Muslim individuals; believe that Islam is a fundamentally violent religion). I don't know whether they've always held these repugnant views, but didn't feel comfortable expressing them until Trump and the far-right wing of the Republican party normalized it; or whether Trump et al. assisted in their bolt to the right. I could rattle off more examples for each of those categories, and don't have the emotional energy to dip my toe into the sludge of misogyny, homophobia, and transphobia.

Neither regrets voting for Trump. One is disappointed that he hasn't done more to drain the swamp/expel Muslims/etc, but he was never going to vote for that lying shrew Hillary. I've done my best to be empathetic and thoughtful and see things from their perspective, and I don't think all Trump voters are AS racist/Islamophobic/etc as the two that I'm closest to...but there's no way around the fact that every single Trump voter saw a campaign that was racist, Islamophobic, anti-disability, and misogynistic, and still voted for him. That's a tacit endorsement of those beliefs.

I was hopeful for most of my middle aged life that these bad behaviors and beliefs would "breed out" by the time I was an old man. I can see that this was ridiculously short sighted.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 05, 2017, 09:02:23 AM
My biggest issue is that the democrats have no interest in me as a constituent.  I do better under republicans but I tend to care more about the social issues the democrats support like net neutrality and more progressive tax plans(even though it's worse for me). 

I have no interest in living in a wildly unfair society. 

but this straight non-minority gendered white male has no interest in voting for democrats until they start focusing on the core and stop playing identity politics.

What, exactly, are the Democrats doing wrong?

playing identity politics and focusing in smaller fringe groups instead of driving a national agenda.

These are broad generalizations.  I'm looking for specifics.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Kris on December 05, 2017, 09:05:52 AM
Over 100 posts.

0 people who regret THEIR Trump vote (and a few who "Knew Someone" that did). I believe most Trump supporters truly believe he is taking on an incredible task, and that it will take time to get the results they desire. I think that is largely why so many presidents win re-election, regardless of their accomplishments the first 4 years.

I think the OP's question is answered for now. I think the same question posed 4 or 8 years from now would yield a better discussion.

Maybe. I often wonder whether the people who supported Nixon ever changed their mind. I'm assuming many of them never did.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 05, 2017, 09:11:03 AM
Smaller fringe groups like...women?  I think they're overdoing it on the transgender stuff, but most of the groups they've been focusing on are not exactly fringe.

in the attempt to big tent every specific group they've forgetting what it means to be American. 

Focusing on things that differentiate us instead of unite us.  It just sucks. 

What?  Is that not like the entire point of America?  Immigrants from all over the world coming together in one country and being allowed to live out their culture, religion, etc. in freedom?

Also, Democrats seem to focus on those who have not had the same opportunity as the upper class / wealthy - women, immigrants, minorities, LGBTQ...I'd rather my party fight for those folks (which, spoiler, is a majority of the country when taken as a whole) than a party who seems to be catering to rich white folks only.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Dabnasty on December 05, 2017, 09:24:34 AM
This thread was meant to be about individuals who voted for Trump and how they feel now. I'm still interested in having that conversation. I will do my best to not make blanket statements about his supporters because you are all individuals, however I will continue to point out his flaws and the fact that anyone who still supports him is overlooking those flaws.

To those suggesting that he hasn't passed racist policy, he doesn't need to. His campaign has caused damage to race relations since the beginning. The societal changes he has caused worry me more than any legal actions he has taken. Our government is made up of not only the laws we have in place, but the people and what is happening inside their heads. Our democracy may not be as representative as we would like but it is a representative democracy and what the people want matters.

When you convince people in our country that building a wall between us and our neighbors will fix low wages and stop the drug trade, you're lying to them. If that lie were to result in a wall being built the real consequences would a massive waste of money, damaged relationship with Mexico, Environmental damage, and countless legal battles with Texans who are not willing to give up the land needed to build the wall. Illegal immigrants would continue to fly into the country and both immigrants and drugs would continue to roll through checkpoints as they do everyday right now. Oh and the 60ft deep tunnels will continue to operate under that 6ft underground barrier he has touted.

Anyone who wants to argue that the wall isn't bigoted, let me hear you're thoughts. You may feel there are economic and safety reasons to support the wall and that is what we should be discussing. If we can come to the conclusion that those reasons are not legitimate and you still support the wall, now I have to believe it is a matter of bigotry.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Wexler on December 05, 2017, 09:35:19 AM
My biggest issue is that the democrats have no interest in me as a constituent.  I do better under republicans but I tend to care more about the social issues the democrats support like net neutrality and more progressive tax plans(even though it's worse for me). 

I have no interest in living in a wildly unfair society. 

but this straight non-minority gendered white male has no interest in voting for democrats until they start focusing on the core and stop playing identity politics.

What, exactly, are the Democrats doing wrong?

playing identity politics and focusing in smaller fringe groups instead of driving a national agenda.

These are broad generalizations.  I'm looking for specifics.

Me too.  If Democrats won't give you a tickle, what is a tickle to you?

1. What specific actions did Democrats take that alienated you?  Not just a feeling, but actual events.
2. What specific actions did Trump take that reassured you, despite your general disagreement with his policies, that you-as a white man-were in better hands even if he pursued policies that you don't like?
3. What actions and policy position can a political party take that means they aren't "forgetting what it means to be an American"?
4. What policy positions focus on things that unite us?  What actions focus on things that unite us?
5. Would you rather vote for someone who said things you like but did things you didn't like or the opposite?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: acroy on December 05, 2017, 09:53:22 AM
Where's OP?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: bacchi on December 05, 2017, 09:58:40 AM
Over 100 posts.

0 people who regret THEIR Trump vote (and a few who "Knew Someone" that did). I believe most Trump supporters truly believe he is taking on an incredible task, and that it will take time to get the results they desire. I think that is largely why so many presidents win re-election, regardless of their accomplishments the first 4 years.

I think the OP's question is answered for now. I think the same question posed 4 or 8 years from now would yield a better discussion.

Having it in writing makes it harder to retract.

If it's only words, there's some deniability.

Dad circa 1973: "Well, I supported Vietnam but then I became uneasy with it pretty quickly."
Son: "...(That's not how I remember it, dad.)"

Now, with a written record, it's much harder to eat crow. It takes courage to admit being wrong and even more courage to admit being 100% wrong.

In other words, even if he's impeached for taking personal Russian loans in trade for reduced sanctions, it'll still be some mass liberal/Hillary/Podesta/Obama conspiracy.

Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 05, 2017, 10:13:32 AM
To answer acroy's question, here is OP:

I appreciate everyone's responses thus far.  It has been a tumulterous time this past year, and I'm doing my best to try to "listen" to those who may a have a difference of opinion than mine.  Perhaps most importantly, I'm trying to see if circumstances are not what you expected, does this change one's mind--or has politics become so "tribal" that there is never any room for such a change...

Fwiw, last logged in ~18 hours ago - seems like PP could be back soon.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: GuitarStv on December 05, 2017, 11:31:04 AM
Where's OP?

Swinging around New York rooftops I expect.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: cliffhanger on December 05, 2017, 05:49:24 PM
Hey Dabnasty, I did want to address this, as I was one of posters talking about racist policy.

I absolutely agree that words and rhetoric have an impact, and Trump has no tact. I'm sure most of us would say that race relations in the US have been on the decline for several years. But why do we think this? Is there some metric we can base this decline off of? What has caused the tension? What is the solution? I can't give you a solid answer on any of these questions, and the answers are likely pretty complicated. This is why I point to something real and understandable as a policy that disproportionately and intentionally harms others, so we have a defined issue that we can fight together.

I know this is a pretty high bar to set, but it's the best real solution I can think of. I'd wager that minorities trapped in generational poverty, what I think is the largest racial issue in the country, is not driven by rhetoric. It's driven by policy of city, states, and federal government, in that order. This is why I weigh Trump's actions by 80% and his words by 20%.

I do disagree with the logic behind a couple of your statements; I hope we can discuss.

His campaign has caused damage to race relations since the beginning. The societal changes he has caused worry me more than any legal actions he has taken. Our government is made up of not only the laws we have in place, but the people and what is happening inside their heads.

I would argue that the problem is two fold. Trump says something that's offensive and controversial. The media assigns the worst possible racist motive to his statements and takes it out of context. I think his feud with Rep. Frederica Wilson over a phone call to a slain soldier's widow is a good example of this. Rep. Wilson began by suggesting Trump was uncaring and the soldier "knew what he signed up for, but I guess it still hurts." So, with only that quote from a politically charged, showboating Rep, most media outlets assign the best possible motive to Rep. Wilson and the worst possible motive to Trump. Then, of course, Trump attacks back, and it turns into a shit-show of stupidity. Charging this instance, no matter how stupid on Trump's part, as racism does really harm us culturally. I want to fight racism as much as you, but it harms the cause when we assign racism to everything. That white kid who shot up a church is racist. We could argue that the police officer who shot a black man in the back was motivated by racism. We don't care about these anymore because everything's racist.

OK, so that was longer and more rambling than I intended. I guess the gist of my argument is that I think you don't have the complete picture. Damage to race relations did not get set in motion by Trump's campaign. A large part, but not all, of this damage does come from unjustly charging Trump of racism without evidence. It will not stop until we take feelings completely out of the argument and point to actual racism that we can fight together.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Peter Parker on December 05, 2017, 06:38:16 PM
Where's OP?

Swinging around New York rooftops I expect.

I'm here.  I wanted to ask an honest question about whether anyone regretted their vote for republicans (Trump).  A few brave souls came forward and said they didn't.  No one personally said they regretted voting republican and/or for Trump.

I'm guess I'm not surprised--If someone did regret it, I suppose it would be hard to admit that (but IMHO very brave). I have tried to stay out of it because I didn't want to muddy the waters and I was genuinely curious.  I guess I got my answer.

I have some feelings about it and I would be happy to share them, but I was really more concerned about YOUR rationale....It has been very enlightening--and I appreciate the answers.  Thank You!
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: JLee on December 05, 2017, 06:42:49 PM
Where's OP?

Swinging around New York rooftops I expect.

I'm here.  I wanted to ask an honest question about whether anyone regretted their vote for republicans (Trump).  A few brave souls came forward and said they didn't.  No one personally said they regretted voting republican and/or for Trump.

I'm guess I'm not surprised--If someone did regret it, I suppose it would be hard to admit that (but IMHO very brave). I have tried to stay out of it because I didn't want to muddy the waters and I was genuinely curious.  I guess I got my answer.

I have some feelings about it and I would be happy to share them, but I was really more concerned about YOUR rationale....It has been very enlightening--and I appreciate the answers.  Thank You!

His approval rate is holding fairly steady between 37-38%. Given that 26% of registered voters voted for Trump, few people having regrets doesn't surprise me all that much.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: zoltani on December 05, 2017, 06:53:50 PM
I sure as hell didn't vote Trump, but I can answer the question put forth about how the democrats have alienated me. Before the election Obama, who I voted for, made a speech where he stated that if you were not going to vote for Hillary and you were male then you should ask yourself if you're sexist. That rhetoric really put me off of the democrats. That's the identity politics that is being referred to. Add to that the moral superiority and their penchant for calling anything they don't agree with racist, sexist, bigoted, etc. Of course, that could not drive me to vote for trump, but it solidified the fact that I did not want to vote for Hilary.

Now we not only have increased tension between races but also increased tension between the sexes. It is almost as if something systematic and sinister is going on behind the scenes to divide us, hmm.

Racial tensions are getting worse and worse, to the point where a university newspaper publishes an insanely racist article:

“Whiteness will be over because we want it to be. And when it dies, there will be millions of cultural zombies aimlessly wandering across a vastly changed landscape. Ontologically speaking, white death will mean liberation for all… Until then, remember this: I hate you because you shouldn’t exist. You are both the dominant apparatus on the planet and the void in which all other cultures, upon meeting you, die.”

(http://cdn.washingtonexaminer.biz/cache/1060x600-254731591619793e5858d4c7a6718a63.jpg)

This will not end well.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 05, 2017, 07:28:51 PM
“Whiteness will be over because we want it to be. And when it dies, there will be millions of cultural zombies aimlessly wandering across a vastly changed landscape. Ontologically speaking, white death will mean liberation for all… Until then, remember this: I hate you because you shouldn’t exist. You are both the dominant apparatus on the planet and the void in which all other cultures, upon meeting you, die.”

Ooooh, looks like we have a two-fer and I get to add zoltani to my list of unfavorite forum posters.  First you disparage sexual assault victims (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/index.php?action=post;quote=1798260;topic=81370.250) as liars and then you disparage oppressed minorities as racists?  That's fantastic!  I no longer have to wonder, because you're clearly an ugly person!

Here's the cliffnotes version for you in case you're unclear on whether you're a racist:  do you recognize that centuries of systemic oppression of racial and ethnic minorities has resulted in a society in which white people were given preferential treatment, which still echoes today?  Do you think academic affirmative action is a sin even though black people still make 70% of what white people do?  Do you believe this pay gap is due to black people's natural inferiority?

Just because some aggrieved uni journalist major once wrote an article expressing their frustration at systemic racism in American culture does not mean that there is a great conspiracy to tear down white people.  There IS a social movement toward merit-based rewards, where people are judged by their abilities and not their skin color.  Do you see the difference?


Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on December 05, 2017, 07:42:48 PM
Voted for Harambe, zero ragrets ;)
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Wexler on December 05, 2017, 08:31:49 PM
Some regret:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Trumpgret/comments/7hpnxd/i_didnt_vote_for_trump_but_i_didnt_stop_his/

So...this guy voted for Trump because he was triggered when Obama talked about helping "Johnny as well as Jamal" find jobs.  He literally saw including what was meant to be a white guy and a black guy together-both needing jobs, both acknowledged-as being an attack on white people and him.

How do you fix that mindset?  I'm reminded of the poster who says that democrats threw him aside for being a white man.  Is this the sort of thing he meant? To me, this is a classic: when you are used to privilege, equality looks like oppression.  The unemployment rate for black men is higher than for white men, and there's our president saying we've got to help BOTH of them.  What's the problem? Do you want him to say helping "person x of indeterminate race and gender" find a job?  Because that sounds like the SJW PC stuff you guys are supposed to hate.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: palerider1858 on December 05, 2017, 11:18:22 PM
Some regret:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Trumpgret/comments/7hpnxd/i_didnt_vote_for_trump_but_i_didnt_stop_his/

So...this guy voted for Trump because he was triggered when Obama talked about helping "Johnny as well as Jamal" find jobs.  He literally saw including what was meant to be a white guy and a black guy together-both needing jobs, both acknowledged-as being an attack on white people and him.

How do you fix that mindset?  I'm reminded of the poster who says that democrats threw him aside for being a white man.  Is this the sort of thing he meant? To me, this is a classic: when you are used to privilege, equality looks like oppression.  The unemployment rate for black men is higher than for white men, and there's our president saying we've got to help BOTH of them.  What's the problem? Do you want him to say helping "person x of indeterminate race and gender" find a job?  Because that sounds like the SJW PC stuff you guys are supposed to hate.
Is this post from a Mustachian and therefore applicable?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: partgypsy on December 06, 2017, 06:23:34 AM
I respectfully disagree with you cliffhanger, that  "a large part, but not all, of this damage does come from unjustly charging Trump of racism without evidence. It will not stop until we take feelings completely out of the argument and point to actual racism that we can fight together." I think there is plenty of evidence that previously the Democratic party, and then at some point Republicans inflamed racial divisions, in both their rhetoric, policies and also jerrymanding to win elections. There is a ton of evidence of this, which as I'm at work I can't cite, but you can dip your toes in by looking at robocalls and mailings done which were funded by Karl Rove. In the state I am in (NC) the jerrymanding done to increase Republican control by having African American votes be concentrated or split depending on what would work, was so bad it was declared unconstitutional. However it didn't undo the election results and we are still dealing with it. Democrats, by saying that everyone in this country should have access to good education, healthcare, jobs, etc is NOT racist. It's what this country stands for. That politicians who say it is not a level playing field are simply pointing out the obvious. Don't shoot the messenger.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/05/trump-butler-anthony-senecal-facebook-kill-obama/#
I don't need any additional evidence that Trump is actively hostile and contemptuous to anyone who is not like him. The whole Obama is from Kenya should be enough for anyone. Or that the KKK endorsed him as a candidate. Or the lawsuits. Or the people he favors, such as his longtime butler Anthony Senecal whom he kept on even after his incredibly racist comments were publicized. Or Steven Bannon who said at the 2016 Republican Convention "We are the party of the alt-right."  If you don't understand why a huge percentage of the US population feels alienated by having Trump be in office, not sure I can help you. I think it's more Trump supporters do understand, and either don't care, or share the same views. 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 06, 2017, 07:07:51 AM
I sure as hell didn't vote Trump, but I can answer the question put forth about how the democrats have alienated me. Before the election Obama, who I voted for, made a speech where he stated that if you were not going to vote for Hillary and you were male then you should ask yourself if you're sexist. That rhetoric really put me off of the democrats. That's the identity politics that is being referred to. Add to that the moral superiority and their penchant for calling anything they don't agree with racist, sexist, bigoted, etc. Of course, that could not drive me to vote for trump, but it solidified the fact that I did not want to vote for Hilary.

Now we not only have increased tension between races but also increased tension between the sexes. It is almost as if something systematic and sinister is going on behind the scenes to divide us, hmm.

You know what's increased tension between the sexes?  A decades (centuries?) long domination of one sex over the other.  I cannot point to any greater evidence than the #MeToo movement with thousands of women sharing their stories of sexual assault and sexual harassment.  Look at how many power guys in various industries are now being called out for sexual misconduct and losing their jobs - film/television, journalism, music, politics (save for...wait for it...Donald Trump and Roy Moore.  What do those two have in common?  Hmmm), etc.

If you think women in all walks of life experiencing sexual misconduct and thinking, "wow, this is some effed up **** that I don't like and I don't want anyone else to have to experience it" is "something systematic and sinister is going on behind the scenes to divide us" I can't help you.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Dabnasty on December 06, 2017, 07:30:29 AM
Hey Dabnasty, I did want to address this, as I was one of posters talking about racist policy.

I absolutely agree that words and rhetoric have an impact, and Trump has no tact. I'm sure most of us would say that race relations in the US have been on the decline for several years. But why do we think this? Is there some metric we can base this decline off of? What has caused the tension? What is the solution? I can't give you a solid answer on any of these questions, and the answers are likely pretty complicated. This is why I point to something real and understandable as a policy that disproportionately and intentionally harms others, so we have a defined issue that we can fight together.

I know this is a pretty high bar to set, but it's the best real solution I can think of. I'd wager that minorities trapped in generational poverty, what I think is the largest racial issue in the country, is not driven by rhetoric. It's driven by policy of city, states, and federal government, in that order. This is why I weigh Trump's actions by 80% and his words by 20%.

I do disagree with the logic behind a couple of your statements; I hope we can discuss.

His campaign has caused damage to race relations since the beginning. The societal changes he has caused worry me more than any legal actions he has taken. Our government is made up of not only the laws we have in place, but the people and what is happening inside their heads.

I would argue that the problem is two fold. Trump says something that's offensive and controversial. The media assigns the worst possible racist motive to his statements and takes it out of context. I think his feud with Rep. Frederica Wilson over a phone call to a slain soldier's widow is a good example of this. Rep. Wilson began by suggesting Trump was uncaring and the soldier "knew what he signed up for, but I guess it still hurts." So, with only that quote from a politically charged, showboating Rep, most media outlets assign the best possible motive to Rep. Wilson and the worst possible motive to Trump. Then, of course, Trump attacks back, and it turns into a shit-show of stupidity. Charging this instance, no matter how stupid on Trump's part, as racism does really harm us culturally. I want to fight racism as much as you, but it harms the cause when we assign racism to everything. That white kid who shot up a church is racist. We could argue that the police officer who shot a black man in the back was motivated by racism. We don't care about these anymore because everything's racist.

OK, so that was longer and more rambling than I intended. I guess the gist of my argument is that I think you don't have the complete picture. Damage to race relations did not get set in motion by Trump's campaign. A large part, but not all, of this damage does come from unjustly charging Trump of racism without evidence. It will not stop until we take feelings completely out of the argument and point to actual racism that we can fight together.

I would agree that Trump did not suddenly create the racial tension we have today but I'm also not sure I would agree that race relations have been on the decline. Like you said it's more a matter of what the media decides to report on and we have no metric to measure. And yes, I do blame anti trump media for overplaying the small things but on the other hand he's said plenty of and done plenty of horrible things that are just as horrible in context. Do you really feel that touting a Muslim ban is taken out of context? Or calling Mexicans immigrants rapists and murderers? There are so many examples in this thread, most of which I don't feel are overplayed.

There's a tactic to create negative feelings toward a group of people that trump and the right wing media in particular uses everyday (again, not just trump but he has legitimized the feelings that already existed). When Fox News and even more so online outlets like Breitbart find every case in the US where an illegal immigrant, transgender person, gay person, or Muslim has committed a crime and report on it as if it is national news, that leads people who consume that media to believe it is the norm. There may have been 1,000 other murders that day, some of them against one of these groups, but that's not the message they want to send.

Your comment on the media blowing every little thing up as racist has some merit but if you are getting that message through a right-leaning news outlet, remember that they are going to take the worst examples of everything. Much like they pick out the minorities who commit crimes they will pick out the ridiculous news sources like Daily KOS, Rachel Maddow and even celebrities who don't know shit and they'll assign everything they say to the "liberals". For the record I don't take those sources seriously at all. They do whine too much. That doesn't mean everyone who is anti-trump is whining along with them.

This topic is broad enough that it's tough to stay on track but I would like to add one more thing. During the campaign trump tweeted an info graphic (terrible little things) claiming that 81% of whites murdered in 2015 were killed by blacks and other completely false statistics on murder. The real number is 15% and most of those were people who knew each other so it wasn't the mugger in an alley scenario that he's trying to scare us with. Even if the stats were accurate this is not something a president should be doing. What purpose does it serve? to get people riled up and scared? But it wasn't true. He, as a person who has followers who take what he says as fact while discounting anyone who disagrees now have another little "fact" to fuel their hatred.

http://www.factcheck.org/2015/11/trump-retweets-bogus-crime-graphic/ (http://www.factcheck.org/2015/11/trump-retweets-bogus-crime-graphic/)

Trump is a classic example of a fear mongering politician. Lot's of politicians (and the media) are guilty of using this tactic and it is insidious but trump has taken it to another level. I think we would all benefit from trying to better understand our own psychology but just as a start I would recommend some research on why fear mongering is so effective.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fearmongering (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fearmongering)
https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2012/10/why-are-political-ads-so-frightening.html  (https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2012/10/why-are-political-ads-so-frightening.html)
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Spiritual_Lobotomy on December 06, 2017, 09:56:48 AM
I didn't vote Republican, but here are some thoughts in response to your list

1:  I am FI, dropping the ACA Mandate will actually be less of a cost Burden for us and our situation.  I dont care either way
2:  I dont support the Plan, but the plan is better for us in terms of keeping more of what we earn
3:  What about Trump Russia?  Doesn't really bother me
4:  I never needed consumer protection.  We live pretty frugal
5:  Not worried
6:  Politics has always lowered the bar.... what did you expect!?  Both sides are trying to win, not be noble
7:  Not worried
8:  This is much deeper a problem than "because Republicans are in office"
9:  Cant really say since I am not a woman, however I asked my wife a self made accomplished business woman  she doesn't know what all the fuss is about.....
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: zoltani on December 06, 2017, 10:07:36 AM
“Whiteness will be over because we want it to be. And when it dies, there will be millions of cultural zombies aimlessly wandering across a vastly changed landscape. Ontologically speaking, white death will mean liberation for all… Until then, remember this: I hate you because you shouldn’t exist. You are both the dominant apparatus on the planet and the void in which all other cultures, upon meeting you, die.”

Ooooh, looks like we have a two-fer and I get to add zoltani to my list of unfavorite forum posters.  First you disparage sexual assault victims (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/index.php?action=post;quote=1798260;topic=81370.250) as liars and then you disparage oppressed minorities as racists?  That's fantastic!  I no longer have to wonder, because you're clearly an ugly person!

Here's the cliffnotes version for you in case you're unclear on whether you're a racist:  do you recognize that centuries of systemic oppression of racial and ethnic minorities has resulted in a society in which white people were given preferential treatment, which still echoes today?  Do you think academic affirmative action is a sin even though black people still make 70% of what white people do?  Do you believe this pay gap is due to black people's natural inferiority?

Just because some aggrieved uni journalist major once wrote an article expressing their frustration at systemic racism in American culture does not mean that there is a great conspiracy to tear down white people.  There IS a social movement toward merit-based rewards, where people are judged by their abilities and not their skin color.  Do you see the difference?

Thanks sol, it's an honor to be on your list of deplorables, your morals are clearly superior to mine.

I think that calling an entire race's DNA an abomination and saying that they shold not exist is racist. Those are. some serious mental gymnastics you use to say that it's not. I would say the same of the article was about any race. The fact that the article even made it to press is indicative of a larger issue on college campuses. It has been retracted and called racist by the university president. Of course the author shares the same sentiment as you, that it can't be racist because it's about white people.

I heard about the article from reading an essay about it written by a minority.
http://quillette.com/2017/12/05/racism-disguised-anti-racism/


There is a backlash to this kind of stuff, like trumps rise to power and more white supremacists groups. It's the same thing Alan watts was describing in one of his talks. I've posted this before, but I will again.

"In any foreseeable future there are going to be thousands and thousands of people who detest and abominate Negroes, communists, Russians, Chinese, Jews, Catholics, beatniks, homosexuals, and "dope-fiends." These hatreds are not going to be healed, but only inflamed, by insulting those who feel them, and the abusive labels with which we plaster them—squares, fascists, rightists, know-nothings—may well become the proud badges and symbols around which they will rally and consolidate themselves. Nor will it do to confront the opposition in public with polite and nonviolent sit-ins and demonstrations, while boosting our collective ego by insulting them in private. If we want justice for minorities and cooled wars with our natural enemies, whether human or non-human, we must first come to terms with the minority and the enemy in ourselves and in our own hearts, for the rascal is there as much as anywhere in the "external" world—-especially when you realize that the world outside your skin is as much yourself as the world inside. For want of this awareness, no one can be more belligerent than a pacifist on the rampage, or more militantly nationalistic than an anti-imperialist."
Alan Watts
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Rimu05 on December 06, 2017, 10:45:10 AM
I'm pretty sure race relations have never been good. Perhaps because we are prone to only viewing ourselves based on the era and bubble we live in, we think that race relations have gone down. There's that SNL sketch with Dave Chappelle and Chris Rock on election night.

I think 8 years after Obama made us forget the early stages. I still remember people protesting with monkey signs.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 06, 2017, 11:12:47 AM
I didn't vote Republican, but here are some thoughts in response to your list

1:  I am FI, dropping the ACA Mandate will actually be less of a cost Burden for us and our situation.  I dont care either way
2:  I dont support the Plan, but the plan is better for us in terms of keeping more of what we earn
3:  What about Trump Russia?  Doesn't really bother me
4:  I never needed consumer protection.  We live pretty frugal
5:  Not worried
6:  Politics has always lowered the bar.... what did you expect!?  Both sides are trying to win, not be noble
7:  Not worried
8:  This is much deeper a problem than "because Republicans are in office"
9:  Cant really say since I am not a woman, however I asked my wife a self made accomplished business woman  she doesn't know what all the fuss is about.....

No offense, but you can't stick your head in a sand and have these issues go away.  That may not be what you're doing but it seems like it.

For many of us, the "doesn't impact me" rationale isn't enough when you look at the groups of people who are going to lose.  You know, caring about other citizens.

Not sure what OP meant by "women's issues/rights" but I'm guessing the wage gap, general sexual misconduct going unnoticed, unreported, or not believed for various reasons further worsening the workplace for women, certain employers now being able to deny birth control being included in their health insurance, etc.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Aelias on December 06, 2017, 12:36:23 PM
I'm amused that pretty much all the financial benefits of Trump's "election" have basically gone to Clinton's voters. Now that he's basically defunded the ACA and killed his own constituents' health insurance to give tax cuts to corporations, Clinton's college-educated white collar investor voters with employer-provided insurance get to enjoy larger dividends. I don't think Trump's voters really thought through what they were doing.

Not so sure about that one . . .

https://www.vanityfair.com/newsletter/2017/12/trump-crony-admits-tax-plan-is-an-elaborate-middle-finger-to-liberals
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: bacchi on December 06, 2017, 12:50:05 PM
I think that calling an entire race's DNA an abomination and saying that they shold not exist is racist. Those are. some serious mental gymnastics you use to say that it's not. I would say the same of the article was about any race. The fact that the article even made it to press is indicative of a larger issue on college campuses. It has been retracted and called racist by the university president. Of course the author shares the same sentiment as you, that it can't be racist because it's about white people.

I agree that it's a racist article but it's a college newspaper. Having worked in one when I was in school, the editorial department goes out of their way to be inflammatory. It's one way to engage otherwise apathetic students.

Realistically, it in no way represents the college, newspaper, and probably not even the author (it's most likely an extreme version of the author's views). To even give it a second thought is a waste of time and the fretting over it is amusing ("OMG! Liberals are anti-white people!!!111!").
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: TexasRunner on December 06, 2017, 01:02:04 PM
It's an honest question.  I'm really curious as to whether anyone voted republican and now regrets it because:

1.  Gutting of ACA and how it effects your FIRE plans...
2.  The republican tax plan
3.  Trump/Russia
4.  Less consumer protection (deregulation)
5.  Korea
6.  General lack of decorum
7.  Environmental issues/climate change issues
8.  Racial/religious (Muslim) tensions
9.  Women's rights/issues

I'm actually curious.  And I'm wondering if you will vote differently next time?


1.  Gutting of ACA and how it effects your FIRE plans...
I fall into the "Family Glitch" that Obama blatantly refused to fix even though he had the ability, so F#%$ ACA and Obamacare.  My premiums rose 382% across three years and I wasn't eligble for subsidies.  Burn ACA to the ground and lets build something completely from scratch (I know thats a pipe dream).  (FYI, My family and I are currently Cash Payments for medical without insurance.  I paid over 60,000$ in the last 5 years in insurance premiums but only used 28,000$ worth of benefits, including a (1) car wreck, (2) MRI of DW's lower back when we might have found a tumor, (3) couple of stomach X-rays (because kids, thats why), and (4) a broken collarbone.  Had I made cash payments, I would have been at least 25,000$ ahead.)

If you don't know about the family glitch, it really is something that you should understand if you support ACA:  https://www.centerforhealthjournalism.org/2016/04/27/family-trapped-aca-glaring-family-glitch-life-gets-harder (https://www.centerforhealthjournalism.org/2016/04/27/family-trapped-aca-glaring-family-glitch-life-gets-harder)

2.  The republican tax plan
Great.  Cut spending and cut taxes.  I would prefer true overhaul (complete repeal and replace) with something more of a % based system with no deductions, but I don't mind this.  Senate plan buts AMT back in for corporations so many of the deductions / exemptions for corporations are now baselines at 20%.  I would like to see more loopholes closed, but overall dont mind the changes.  (FYI, I don't recall hear Dems clamoring for loopholes to be closed in 2007 or 2015...)

Also I would like to see reductions in defense spending (especially overrunning D&D projects), consolidation of resources, and us not policing the world or giving away humanitarian aid at the federal level....  But the only party pushing for that is Libertarian (mostly) and they don't stand a chance under the current system.

3.  Trump/Russia
Don't care.  You are going to have to prove to me that actual laws were broken or known to be broken by the POTUS for me to care.  Any Dems here care about Obama's gun running scandal (Fast and Furious)?  Laws were broken there too.

4.  Less consumer protection (deregulation)
Great.  I work in industries where regulations are stifling growth and many don't even actually help with overall greenhouse gas emissions but instead forwards them to up-front costs in lieu of life-of-product costs.  One example being the 2015 IECC which is absolute garbage.

5.  Korea
Complicated.  NK is not going to willingly give up nuclear capabilities and it is my understanding that Clinton would have handled it exactly the same way (giving up nukes being the precondition to negotiations).  I think she would actually be more hawkish than Trump.  Also, saber-rattling is the name of the game over there, I think the leadership knows that.  If NK actually decides to do a Pacific Air-Burst Nuke Test, we might be having a different conversation.  Either way, I don't find this to be a minus for Trump because I'm thinking he is handling it the same or better than Clinton would have.

6.  General lack of decorum
Don't like it but I understand it.  A TON of people have been getting real tired of Political Correctness, and I see this as an obvious blowback.

7.  Environmental issues/climate change issues
Paris Accords are useless politically as long as Texas is strangled by regulation and Mexico's air passes right over the border (which is still the case).  Kill it and let innovation start taking care of emissions problems.

8.  Racial/religious (Muslim) tensions
It is my understanding that predominantly, a complete view of Islam (from within) is incompatible with American system of government.  Albeit there are different views, and one could say the same for Christianity's end-game Theocracy, I do think Islam has more specific inconsistencies with our system of government that prevent it from being compatible...   Either way, I don't blame Trump for American insistence on setting up dictators and f#$%ing up the rest of the world.  Travel ban or not, that is a problem that no one else seems to be discussing or willing to fix.

9.  Women's rights/issues
Saying some inappropriate things in a private setting years ago doesn't deter me or change my opinion.  Other than that, I don't see any other rights that have changed or degraded...  Still waiting on someone to point some out.


Don't regret my vote despite what I think of Trump's character.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: bacchi on December 06, 2017, 01:12:06 PM
3.  Trump/Russia
Don't care.  You are going to have to prove to me that actual laws were broken or known to be broken by the POTUS for me to care.

??? That's why we have a Special Counsel investigating it.

Quote
Any Dems here care about Obama's gun running scandal (Fast and Furious)?  Laws were broken there too.

What's Obama got to do with Trump and Russia collusion? He's no longer the sitting President; Trump is.

Is this a quid pro quo ("I'll care if you care")? False equivalency?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Spiritual_Lobotomy on December 06, 2017, 01:19:14 PM
I didn't vote Republican, but here are some thoughts in response to your list

1:  I am FI, dropping the ACA Mandate will actually be less of a cost Burden for us and our situation.  I dont care either way
2:  I dont support the Plan, but the plan is better for us in terms of keeping more of what we earn
3:  What about Trump Russia?  Doesn't really bother me
4:  I never needed consumer protection.  We live pretty frugal
5:  Not worried
6:  Politics has always lowered the bar.... what did you expect!?  Both sides are trying to win, not be noble
7:  Not worried
8:  This is much deeper a problem than "because Republicans are in office"
9:  Cant really say since I am not a woman, however I asked my wife a self made accomplished business woman  she doesn't know what all the fuss is about.....

No offense, but you can't stick your head in a sand and have these issues go away.  That may not be what you're doing but it seems like it.

For many of us, the "doesn't impact me" rationale isn't enough when you look at the groups of people who are going to lose.  You know, caring about other citizens.

Not sure what OP meant by "women's issues/rights" but I'm guessing the wage gap, general sexual misconduct going unnoticed, unreported, or not believed for various reasons further worsening the workplace for women, certain employers now being able to deny birth control being included in their health insurance, etc.

says the credit pusher........
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: acroy on December 06, 2017, 01:26:05 PM
Where's OP?

Swinging around New York rooftops I expect.

I'm here.  I wanted to ask an honest question about whether anyone regretted their vote for republicans (Trump).  A few brave souls came forward and said they didn't.  No one personally said they regretted voting republican and/or for Trump.

I'm guess I'm not surprised--If someone did regret it, I suppose it would be hard to admit that (but IMHO very brave). I have tried to stay out of it because I didn't want to muddy the waters and I was genuinely curious.  I guess I got my answer.

I have some feelings about it and I would be happy to share them, but I was really more concerned about YOUR rationale....It has been very enlightening--and I appreciate the answers.  Thank You!
Thanks for starting the thread OP, interesting question & some interesting responses. Too bad the non-Trump voters who hafta be heard polluted it up, made it hard to sift through.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: BigHaus89 on December 06, 2017, 01:29:53 PM
Thank you Trump-voters for taking the time to answer. This has been very informative for me.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Gin1984 on December 06, 2017, 01:41:23 PM
To those in this thread piling on and attacking Trump voters, you're defeating what I believe was OP's purpose of having a real discussion. If all you want to do is attack, start your own thread. I understand the frustration you feel but all you're doing is playing whack-a-mole with anyone who dares peek their head out of the ground to have an honest conversation. Even if someone's reasoning is flawed, you need to understand it before you can debate it.


I've voted republican all my life but couldn't do it this time.  I ended up voting for Gary Johnson. 

My biggest issue is that the democrats have no interest in me as a constituent.  I do better under republicans but I tend to care more about the social issues the democrats support like net neutrality and more progressive tax plans(even though it's worse for me). 

I have no interest in living in a wildly unfair society. 

but this straight non-minority gendered white male has no interest in voting for democrats until they start focusing on the core and stop playing identity politics.
I'd honestly like to hear more from you, as a democrat.  When you say identity politics, what do you mean exactly?  To me, the Dems (myself included) are just saying that everyone should get a level playing field, and admitting that right now not everyone is.  I believe in equality but to do so, we need to be exact when we call out inequality.  Is there something else that you see as an outsider?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: JLee on December 06, 2017, 01:46:59 PM
3.  Trump/Russia
Don't care.  You are going to have to prove to me that actual laws were broken or known to be broken by the POTUS for me to care.  Any Dems here care about Obama's gun running scandal (Fast and Furious)?  Laws were broken there too.

1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

2) Watch this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T8fCEoAbfI). Watch this (https://youtu.be/1ZAPwfrtAFY?t=372) from 6:12 to 8:52.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: TexasRunner on December 06, 2017, 02:05:49 PM
3.  Trump/Russia
Don't care.  You are going to have to prove to me that actual laws were broken or known to be broken by the POTUS for me to care.  Any Dems here care about Obama's gun running scandal (Fast and Furious)?  Laws were broken there too.

1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

2) Watch this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T8fCEoAbfI). Watch this (https://youtu.be/1ZAPwfrtAFY?t=372) from 6:12 to 8:52.

This is inaccurate because I did refute the point. 

Quote
Don't care.  You are going to have to prove to me that actual laws were broken or known to be broken by the POTUS for me to care.

Besides, I was stating my position rather than refuting something or presenting a counter-argument.

You are trying to dissent my statement regarding the "whataboutism" while refusing to acknowledge that ACTUAL point I made, as in nothing is proven yet.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: JLee on December 06, 2017, 02:12:30 PM
3.  Trump/Russia
Don't care.  You are going to have to prove to me that actual laws were broken or known to be broken by the POTUS for me to care.  Any Dems here care about Obama's gun running scandal (Fast and Furious)?  Laws were broken there too.

1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

2) Watch this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T8fCEoAbfI). Watch this (https://youtu.be/1ZAPwfrtAFY?t=372) from 6:12 to 8:52.

This is inaccurate because I did refute the point. 

Quote
Don't care.  You are going to have to prove to me that actual laws were broken or known to be broken by the POTUS for me to care.

Besides, I was stating my position rather than refuting something or presenting a counter-argument.

You are trying to dissent my statement regarding the "whataboutism" while refusing to acknowledge that ACTUAL point I made, as in nothing is proven yet.

Why are you attempting to divert the discussion back to Obama, then?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: TheOldestYoungMan on December 06, 2017, 02:24:50 PM
I have three questions for all the non-racist Trump supporters on here.

1) Do you believe Barack Obama was born in the United States?

2) Do you believe Barack Obama is a Christian?

3) Do you believe it is acceptable that Donald Trump has asserted on numerous occasions that Obama was not born in this country and has suggested repeatedly that he is actually a Muslim?

As someone who generally votes GOP and did not vote for HRC:

1) I know for a fact BO was born in the United States, this isn't a matter of faith.  No serious individual on the right was bringing this up, liberal media highlighted crackpots over and over to discredit serious people on the right, and ultimately elected one of those crackpots president, and even now as evidenced by your question do not take responsibility for this unbelievably divisive form of journalism.  Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

2) Do you believe Barack Obama is a Christian?  For someone outside the faith looking in, I think he probably looks like he is.  As a christian, I'd love to have a conversation with him, because I worry that he has been led astray by a particularly pervasive ideology within christianity that is not very helpful.  It's like being a B- Christian when I think if I had a couple of hours I could get him up to A+ territory.  You can PM me if you are genuinely curious about it, but it's alot less interesting than you probably think.

3)  I don't believe it is acceptable that DT has asserted on numerous occasions that Obama was not born in this country and has suggested repeatedly that he is actually a Muslim.  But I also believe trollish behavior of any sort is unacceptable, and the only way to deal with it is to ignore it.  I sincerely wish these aspects of Trump had been ignored.  Ya'all got trolled hard, and you could not stop feeding that troll.

I have some questions for you, I will limit them to three.

A)  Do you believe Democratic Voters who voted for BO but did not show up for HRC are racist?

B)  Do you acknowledge now that given the known baggage of an HRC nomination she was probably not the best choice?

C)  Are you at all concerned that neither party seems to care what the other party thinks of their nominee, and have seemingly decided that moderates/independents/undecideds are not worth pursuing?  That HRC was probably the single most hated registered democrat by the GOP voter is perversely seen as an asset and not a liability?  And likewise, that Democrats were incensed by the very idea of Trump was seen as a good thing by most in the GOP?  I gather, from reading editorials of the day, that there was a grudging respect for the candidate on the other side, by even the most stringent partisan, in the before times. 

"They're both decent human beings but I like mine better?" Is nowhere on the horizon.  There's barely twelve politicians in all of Congress/Executive branch I don't actively dislike.

Trump is an absolute train wreck of a president.  Just as he was as a candidate.  Everyone has considered what happens when an immovable object encounters an unstoppable object.  Well this presidency is what happens when two unelectable people run for office - chaos and horribleness.

I can't tell you how relieved I was when the democrats nominated BO instead of HRC.  Whichever democrat ran after Bush2 was going to win, and HRC would be terrible as president, absolutely break the government.  I knew nothing about BO (because I'm racist obviously, not because I'm not from Chicago and he hadn't done much), but by default he was a better choice than HRC.  That breaking happened anyway, and racism probably played more into it than either side is willing to admit (racist democrats only voting because he was black, giving the democrats a false sense that the whole country really wanted the ACA, and racist republicans putting up with some bullshit from their own party just because he was black).  Voted for McCain in the 2000 primary by the way because war hero, and I still wonder how much better off we'd all be if it had been McCain vs Gore in 2000, Gore getting his ass handed to him legit and not starting the Democrats down a very dark path in order to win what they increasingly seemed to think was a rigged game.

The ACA didn't need to happen and it is a massive unfunded entitlement program that can be opposed without being a heartless racist asshole.  But from 2008 to 2016 if you opposed anything the Democrats did you were a heartless racist asshole, so no, in the original version of that story, the boy who cried wolf got eaten by the wolf.  The Democrats who cried racist got eaten by a racist.  You see where we are now?  THAT's a racist opposition.  See the difference?  Now apologize because you all look like assholes.  No?  So much for revising opinions based on new information...

2004:  62 million votes for GB2, 59 million votes for Kdog (we'll use this as the baseline, because at this point nobody liked Bush but Kerry was, *shakes head* such a bad option, 2 rich old white men that believe in tax and spend though so no obvious racist reason to prefer either)
2008: 69.5 million votes for BO, 59 million for McC  (here we see the ten million racist democrats show up to vote)
2012:  65.9 million votes for BO, 60 million for MtR  (five million democrats became racist the other way, no other reason is possible to not vote for BO)
2016: 65.8 million votes for HRC, 62 million votes for McDbag (nother hundred thousand democrats went the racist route, two million racists decided to join the GoP, I put it closer to twelve million, because most of the GOP I know stayed the fuck home #notmycandidate)

To keep the GOP base motivated, a candidate has to speak to the religious right, the nationalistic right, the small government right, and the uber wealthy right.  To keep the Democratic base interested, the candidate must BE BLACK.  Stop calling everyone else racist and claiming some moral high ground.  Start caring about winning and pick candidates we don't think are scum.  If both sides keep picking garbage candidates we're going to have random outcomes and that is what's going to bring down the empire.

This post has all been rhetorical and I believe none of it, but this article at Vox pretty much sums up why nobody to the right of the far left can get into their echo chamber, or is really interested in trying:

https://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberalism

"It has led an American ideology hitherto responsible for a great share of the good accomplished over the past century of our political life to a posture of reaction and disrespect: a condescending, defensive sneer toward any person or movement outside of its consensus, dressed up as a monopoly on reason." - from the article linked above.

Anyone who can engage a smug liberal and walk away seemingly unfazed can win an election now, that's how intolerable that style is.  As it happens, yes, the Trump voter will forgive anything if their candidate can make you go apoplectic.


As for regretting my vote - as someone's signature notes, I voted 3rd party, which is what you all should have done.  Say what you want about where we'd be, at least we'd be high.

The tax plan has been interesting to see it develop.  I haven't checked yet to see where it landed but aside from the massively irresponsible deficit spending it was headed in a direction that makes sense to me.

I'm seemingly in favor of a constitutional amendment prohibiting POTUS from using Twitter though.  For real we should get on that.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 06, 2017, 02:25:53 PM
says the credit pusher........

What?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Jrr85 on December 06, 2017, 02:38:35 PM
The narrative that anyone who votes Republican is automatically racist, xenophobic etc. is certainly pervasive, but it's also unbelievably insulting and frankly childish.

Over the past year, I have had a personal shift in my overarching mindset that has affected what I think and how I act, particularly when it comes to politics and general social issues. Last year, I may not have called a Trump supporter a racist to their face, but I was definitely thinking it. I was so quick to judge without considering what other reasons could exist for making someone want to align with him (even if they were not good reasons). I do not rush to judgment anymore.

I think this speaks to extreme polarity though. I have what I'd consider to be far-left friends who think anyone right of here is a racist, fascist, Nazi sympathizer. I also have friends who think anyone who didn't vote Trump are tree-hugging Lefty libtards. (Their words, not mine.)

The inability of people to empathize with or understand people from outside their particular section of the spectrum is an issue that I doubt will ever be fixed.

+1

This has been perhaps the most disheartening thing about the past year or so. We talk about Trump supporters being in a bubble all the time, but there is also a second bubble full of anti-Trump folks. Neither of which try or care to understand the other side. We've seen politically motivated violence rise, I think in part because we dehumanize the other side. This is truly awful behavior that needs to stop.
 

+1000.  Look at all the presumably otherwise intelligent people in this thread that have made themselves dumb through tribalism. 

I get Trump is terrible.  But Clinton was terrible. And Bernie Sanders was terrible.  I can understand how anyone could convince themselves that any of those three was the least evil option.  I don't really get how anybody could be particularly fired up about any of those options except for Bernie, just because free stuff that other people pay for is always going to be enticing to a sizable portion of the population.  But I'm not so stupid to assume that everybody that actually likes Clinton or Trump (much less just came to a different decision as to which was the lesser evil), is either irredeemably stupid or has some irredeemable character flaw. 

As far as Trump, there are plenty of reasons for voters to be happy:

1) Gorsuch.  That was an excellent S.Ct. pick.  He is making good picks up and down the line to my knowledge.
2) Gridlock.  Congress hasn't made many things worse yet.  The tax bills are a mix of good and bad, but they're not really making things worse.  We're eventually going to have to reconcile revenue and spending, and they are going to move the timeline up on that marginally.
3) Rolling back executive power (or at least slowing its expansion).  As big of an egomaniac as Trump is, he is shockingly doing less to expand presidential powers than the last two presidents.  I'm not sure it's intentional, but nonetheless, a good thing.
4) Maybe a respect for the consitution and separation of powers? --> People on the left all of the sudden think that maybe separation of powers is a good thing.  This probably won't last when another democrat is in power, but maybe there will be slight hesitation to expand executive power or to undo longstanding restraints on power.  Certainly you'd think they have to wonder whether doing away with the filibuster was a good idea in hindsight. 
5)  A press that cares.  The press is generally filled with mediocrities who aren't currently capable of doing much more than flinging poo.  But, I'd rather have them flinging poo than being sycophants.
6)  Sexual harassment/assault is suddenly taboo even in leftist enclaves.  Not entirely sure this is a result of the Trump presidency, but I wonder whether all these powerful leftists in leftist controlled industries would really be paying the piper if Hillary (who herself was pretty accomplished at attacking victims of sexual assault) was the president.
7) Due process is going to be reestablished on campus.
8) Clamor for paring back the first amendment has died down.
9) Whatever Trump's weaknesses, it doesn't look like he is going to drive us off a cliff or precipitate any disasters (or at least he isn't any more likely than the last few presidents to do so).   
 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 06, 2017, 02:44:09 PM
9.  Women's rights/issues
Saying some inappropriate things in a private setting years ago doesn't deter me or change my opinion.  Other than that, I don't see any other rights that have changed or degraded...  Still waiting on someone to point some out.

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/women/reports/2017/04/25/430969/100-days-100-ways-trump-administration-harming-women-families/

Quote
By undoing the Fair Pay and Safe Workplaces Executive Order, Trump eliminated a requirement for federal contractors to provide employees with basic information about their pay, including hours worked, overtime earnings, and any pay deductions. Such information is critical for all workers—particularly women, who are more likely to work in hourly jobs—to ensure that they are being paid what they have earned.

Quote
By undoing the Fair Pay and Safe Workplaces Executive Order, Trump also made it easier for federal contractors with chronic violations of sex discrimination and other employment laws to keep getting federal funding.

Quote
Trump’s federal hiring freeze forced at least two military bases to suspend enrollment at military child care facilities when they were unable to hire child care providers. Service members depend on high-quality child care to perform their duties each day.

Quote
Trump’s administration made no movement on equal pay in the first 100 days, despite referencing support for equal pay occasionally throughout his campaign. Trump offered no concrete action to strengthen equal pay protections.

Quote
The Trump budget would cut $403 million in health profession and nurse training programs, jobs that are disproportionately held by women workers.

Quote
The Trump-championed American Health Care Act, or AHCA, proposed the elimination of essential health benefits, which include pediatric services—meaning that a family’s insurance might not cover vaccines, eye exams, and well-child visits. This would disproportionately affect women, who often take on the primary responsibility for ensuring their family gets the heath care it needs.

Quote
Trump signed a bill to overturn Obama-era protections for Title X grantees, allowing states to block Title X funding for providers that also offer abortion with nonfederal funds, including Planned Parenthood. Title X funding provides critical reproductive, educational, and counseling services related to family planning and contraception to 4 million clients each year.

Quote
In an Oval Office interview, Trump defended conservative commentator Bill O’Reilly from sexual harassment allegations despite evidence that Fox has already paid more than $13 million to settle five claims against O’Reilly. Trump’s assumption that the complaints were false reveals his instinct to doubt women who experience harassment and assault and mirrors the attitudes that make it hard for victims to come forward.

Quote
Trump’s Cabinet has just four women. It is more white and more male than any first Cabinet since President Ronald Reagan’s

Quote
Per an analysis of the appointees for jobs that do not need Senate confirmation, Trump has hired three men for every woman.

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2017/10/12/16464204/patients-suffer-trump-new-birth-control-rule

Quote
In 2012, the United Nations declared access to contraception a “basic human right.” Last Friday, the Trump administration made moves to decimate women’s access to birth control — thereby continuing his administration’s war against women.

Last week, the Trump administration announced the rollback of an Obama-era requirement that employers to provide women with insurance that covers birth control. Under the new rule, employers can exempt themselves from this requirement for “religious or moral” reasons. Any employer, regardless of the business, can now opt out of covering contraception. If you are a woman, whether you have to pay for birth control out of your own pocket will soon be dictated by the religious and moral opinions of your employer.

Quote
Access to birth control has been proven over and over again to be good not only for women’s health but also for the health of their families. Planned pregnancies result in healthier pregnancies and higher educational and economic attainment for both parents.

Quote
Of the 61 million women ages 15 to 44, 62 percent of them are using a contraceptive method. The importance of the ACA contraceptive coverage mandate is highlighted in data showing how many women benefit from this coverage. In just two years between 2012 and 2014, the percentage of women accessing the birth control pill — the most common form of contraception — without any cost rose from 15 percent to 67 percent.

Quote
On March 27, Trump revoked the 2014 Fair Pay and Safe Workplaces order then-President Barack Obama put in place to ensure that companies with federal contracts comply with 14 labor and civil rights laws. The Fair Pay order was put in place after a 2010 Government Accountability Office investigation showed that companies with rampant violations were being awarded millions in federal contracts.

In an attempt to keep the worst violators from receiving taxpayer dollars, the Fair Pay order included two rules that impacted women workers: paycheck transparency and a ban on forced arbitration clauses for sexual harassment, sexual assault or discrimination claims.

Is that enough for you?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 06, 2017, 03:05:35 PM
nothing is proven yet.

I'm assuming that you don't consider multiple people pleading guilty to felony charges as proof of anything illegal happening?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Kris on December 06, 2017, 03:09:35 PM
I have three questions for all the non-racist Trump supporters on here.

1) Do you believe Barack Obama was born in the United States?

2) Do you believe Barack Obama is a Christian?

3) Do you believe it is acceptable that Donald Trump has asserted on numerous occasions that Obama was not born in this country and has suggested repeatedly that he is actually a Muslim?

As someone who generally votes GOP and did not vote for HRC:

1) I know for a fact BO was born in the United States, this isn't a matter of faith.  No serious individual on the right was bringing this up, liberal media highlighted crackpots over and over to discredit serious people on the right, and ultimately elected one of those crackpots president, and even now as evidenced by your question do not take responsibility for this unbelievably divisive form of journalism.  Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

2) Do you believe Barack Obama is a Christian?  For someone outside the faith looking in, I think he probably looks like he is.  As a christian, I'd love to have a conversation with him, because I worry that he has been led astray by a particularly pervasive ideology within christianity that is not very helpful.  It's like being a B- Christian when I think if I had a couple of hours I could get him up to A+ territory.  You can PM me if you are genuinely curious about it, but it's alot less interesting than you probably think.

3)  I don't believe it is acceptable that DT has asserted on numerous occasions that Obama was not born in this country and has suggested repeatedly that he is actually a Muslim.  But I also believe trollish behavior of any sort is unacceptable, and the only way to deal with it is to ignore it.  I sincerely wish these aspects of Trump had been ignored.  Ya'all got trolled hard, and you could not stop feeding that troll.

I have some questions for you, I will limit them to three.

A)  Do you believe Democratic Voters who voted for BO but did not show up for HRC are racist?

B)  Do you acknowledge now that given the known baggage of an HRC nomination she was probably not the best choice?

C)  Are you at all concerned that neither party seems to care what the other party thinks of their nominee, and have seemingly decided that moderates/independents/undecideds are not worth pursuing?  That HRC was probably the single most hated registered democrat by the GOP voter is perversely seen as an asset and not a liability?  And likewise, that Democrats were incensed by the very idea of Trump was seen as a good thing by most in the GOP?  I gather, from reading editorials of the day, that there was a grudging respect for the candidate on the other side, by even the most stringent partisan, in the before times. 

"They're both decent human beings but I like mine better?" Is nowhere on the horizon.  There's barely twelve politicians in all of Congress/Executive branch I don't actively dislike.

Trump is an absolute train wreck of a president.  Just as he was as a candidate.  Everyone has considered what happens when an immovable object encounters an unstoppable object.  Well this presidency is what happens when two unelectable people run for office - chaos and horribleness.

I can't tell you how relieved I was when the democrats nominated BO instead of HRC.  Whichever democrat ran after Bush2 was going to win, and HRC would be terrible as president, absolutely break the government.  I knew nothing about BO (because I'm racist obviously, not because I'm not from Chicago and he hadn't done much), but by default he was a better choice than HRC.  That breaking happened anyway, and racism probably played more into it than either side is willing to admit (racist democrats only voting because he was black, giving the democrats a false sense that the whole country really wanted the ACA, and racist republicans putting up with some bullshit from their own party just because he was black).  Voted for McCain in the 2000 primary by the way because war hero, and I still wonder how much better off we'd all be if it had been McCain vs Gore in 2000, Gore getting his ass handed to him legit and not starting the Democrats down a very dark path in order to win what they increasingly seemed to think was a rigged game.

The ACA didn't need to happen and it is a massive unfunded entitlement program that can be opposed without being a heartless racist asshole.  But from 2008 to 2016 if you opposed anything the Democrats did you were a heartless racist asshole, so no, in the original version of that story, the boy who cried wolf got eaten by the wolf.  The Democrats who cried racist got eaten by a racist.  You see where we are now?  THAT's a racist opposition.  See the difference?  Now apologize because you all look like assholes.  No?  So much for revising opinions based on new information...

2004:  62 million votes for GB2, 59 million votes for Kdog (we'll use this as the baseline, because at this point nobody liked Bush but Kerry was, *shakes head* such a bad option, 2 rich old white men that believe in tax and spend though so no obvious racist reason to prefer either)
2008: 69.5 million votes for BO, 59 million for McC  (here we see the ten million racist democrats show up to vote)
2012:  65.9 million votes for BO, 60 million for MtR  (five million democrats became racist the other way, no other reason is possible to not vote for BO)
2016: 65.8 million votes for HRC, 62 million votes for McDbag (nother hundred thousand democrats went the racist route, two million racists decided to join the GoP, I put it closer to twelve million, because most of the GOP I know stayed the fuck home #notmycandidate)

To keep the GOP base motivated, a candidate has to speak to the religious right, the nationalistic right, the small government right, and the uber wealthy right.  To keep the Democratic base interested, the candidate must BE BLACK.  Stop calling everyone else racist and claiming some moral high ground.  Start caring about winning and pick candidates we don't think are scum.  If both sides keep picking garbage candidates we're going to have random outcomes and that is what's going to bring down the empire.

This post has all been rhetorical and I believe none of it, but this article at Vox pretty much sums up why nobody to the right of the far left can get into their echo chamber, or is really interested in trying:

https://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberalism

"It has led an American ideology hitherto responsible for a great share of the good accomplished over the past century of our political life to a posture of reaction and disrespect: a condescending, defensive sneer toward any person or movement outside of its consensus, dressed up as a monopoly on reason." - from the article linked above.

Anyone who can engage a smug liberal and walk away seemingly unfazed can win an election now, that's how intolerable that style is.  As it happens, yes, the Trump voter will forgive anything if their candidate can make you go apoplectic.


As for regretting my vote - as someone's signature notes, I voted 3rd party, which is what you all should have done.  Say what you want about where we'd be, at least we'd be high.

The tax plan has been interesting to see it develop.  I haven't checked yet to see where it landed but aside from the massively irresponsible deficit spending it was headed in a direction that makes sense to me.

I'm seemingly in favor of a constitutional amendment prohibiting POTUS from using Twitter though.  For real we should get on that.


A) No.

B) Given that the two choices were Bernie and Hillary... meh.

C) The GOP has been running on a politics of extreme hatred, fear-mongering, and distortion of the other side since Newt Gingrich. I see no real evidence that HRC was probably the single most hated registered democrat by the GOP voter was seen as an asset and not a liability. And honestly, I see no real evidence that the RNC saw that the Democrats were incensed by the very idea of Trump as a good thing. What I did see was that once Trump was elected, they went with what they had. They played up the demonizing of HRC, in the hopes that this would overcome the distaste of the mainline Republicans for Trump, while keeping the hard right frothing at the mouth at the possibility that Clinton could get elected.

Honestly, I did see a grudging respect of HRC from a very few of the older guard of the Republicans. The ones who never endorsed Trump, and the very few who even said they were voting for Clinton. (Including George HW Bush.)

On the other side: I'm sorry, but I don't see the inability of Democrats to have grudging respect for Trump as anything to call them out for. He is not worthy of it.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: TexasRunner on December 06, 2017, 03:31:27 PM
9.  Women's rights/issues
Saying some inappropriate things in a private setting years ago doesn't deter me or change my opinion.  Other than that, I don't see any other rights that have changed or degraded...  Still waiting on someone to point some out.

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/women/reports/2017/04/25/430969/100-days-100-ways-trump-administration-harming-women-families/

Quote
By undoing the Fair Pay and Safe Workplaces Executive Order, Trump eliminated a requirement for federal contractors to provide employees with basic information about their pay, including hours worked, overtime earnings, and any pay deductions. Such information is critical for all workers—particularly women, who are more likely to work in hourly jobs—to ensure that they are being paid what they have earned.

This seems like a stretch and isn't specifically targeted at women.  He was removing regulations and the drastic overreaching of the previous president.  Was he focused specifically on removing women's rights when he signed this...?  Probably not.

Also I would gander that there is a massively statistical over-representation of men in the jobs described, thus naturally affecting women less predominantly than men, since the description is in regards to information that pertains to all workers, (IE hours, pay etc) rather than specifically women.

Also haven't heard of a job that doesn't provide this basic info on every paycheck....

Quote
By undoing the Fair Pay and Safe Workplaces Executive Order, Trump also made it easier for federal contractors with chronic violations of sex discrimination and other employment laws to keep getting federal funding.

Don't see any actual example, just speculation.  Also, Fair Pay and Safe Workplaces Executive Order was addressed above.  Count is still at (1).

Quote
Trump’s federal hiring freeze forced at least two military bases to suspend enrollment at military child care facilities when they were unable to hire child care providers. Service members depend on high-quality child care to perform their duties each day.

Unfortunate side-effect with no possible way of foreseeing it, but I do recall many here asking for reduced Defense spending so there ya go!!

Quote
Trump’s administration made no movement on equal pay in the first 100 days, despite referencing support for equal pay occasionally throughout his campaign. Trump offered no concrete action to strengthen equal pay protections.

Not intentionally pursuing something in not equal to a violation on womens rights, sorry strikeout.

Quote
The Trump budget would cut $403 million in health profession and nurse training programs, jobs that are disproportionately held by women workers.

Not specifically aimed at women.

Quote
The Trump-championed American Health Care Act, or AHCA, proposed the elimination of essential health benefits, which include pediatric services—meaning that a family’s insurance might not cover vaccines, eye exams, and well-child visits. This would disproportionately affect women, who often take on the primary responsibility for ensuring their family gets the heath care it needs.

There are plenty on the right who are against ACA, myself included.  That includes these provisions by necessity.  Again, not specifically targeting women.

Quote
Trump signed a bill to overturn Obama-era protections for Title X grantees, allowing states to block Title X funding for providers that also offer abortion with nonfederal funds, including Planned Parenthood. Title X funding provides critical reproductive, educational, and counseling services related to family planning and contraception to 4 million clients each year.

Some of us are against abortion, including blocking federal funds that would flow to abortion providers.  Not looking to get into that discussion.  If you want to call that an attack on women's rights have at it, but that isn't a Trump specific thing.

Quote
In an Oval Office interview, Trump defended conservative commentator Bill O’Reilly from sexual harassment allegations despite evidence that Fox has already paid more than $13 million to settle five claims against O’Reilly. Trump’s assumption that the complaints were false reveals his instinct to doubt women who experience harassment and assault and mirrors the attitudes that make it hard for victims to come forward.

I fail to see how this actually impacts women's rights...?

Quote
Trump’s Cabinet has just four women. It is more white and more male than any first Cabinet since President Ronald Reagan’s

Any statistics on previous presidents?  Are they better or worse?
Doesn't impact women's rights AND is not provably worse than any other president or even any worse than the potential Clinton presidency.

Quote
Per an analysis of the appointees for jobs that do not need Senate confirmation, Trump has hired three men for every woman.

See note above.  Also, doesn't actually impact womens rights.

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2017/10/12/16464204/patients-suffer-trump-new-birth-control-rule

Quote
In 2012, the United Nations declared access to contraception a “basic human right.” Last Friday, the Trump administration made moves to decimate women’s access to birth control — thereby continuing his administration’s war against women.

Last week, the Trump administration announced the rollback of an Obama-era requirement that employers to provide women with insurance that covers birth control. Under the new rule, employers can exempt themselves from this requirement for “religious or moral” reasons. Any employer, regardless of the business, can now opt out of covering contraception. If you are a woman, whether you have to pay for birth control out of your own pocket will soon be dictated by the religious and moral opinions of your employer.

Again, we can have the abortion debate elsewhere, but this isn't a Trump-specific thing.  Why is the federal government in the business of forcing an employer to provide or purchase something for their employee anyway?...

Quote
Access to birth control has been proven over and over again to be good not only for women’s health but also for the health of their families. Planned pregnancies result in healthier pregnancies and higher educational and economic attainment for both parents.

See above.

Quote
Of the 61 million women ages 15 to 44, 62 percent of them are using a contraceptive method. The importance of the ACA contraceptive coverage mandate is highlighted in data showing how many women benefit from this coverage. In just two years between 2012 and 2014, the percentage of women accessing the birth control pill — the most common form of contraception — without any cost rose from 15 percent to 67 percent.

ACA is its own basket of worms and not Trump-specific.  Also not specifically a women's rights thing.

Quote
On March 27, Trump revoked the 2014 Fair Pay and Safe Workplaces order then-President Barack Obama put in place to ensure that companies with federal contracts comply with 14 labor and civil rights laws. The Fair Pay order was put in place after a 2010 Government Accountability Office investigation showed that companies with rampant violations were being awarded millions in federal contracts.

In an attempt to keep the worst violators from receiving taxpayer dollars, the Fair Pay order included two rules that impacted women workers: paycheck transparency and a ban on forced arbitration clauses for sexual harassment, sexual assault or discrimination claims.

Fair Pay and Safe Workplaces Executive Order was addressed above.

Is that enough for you?

I count 5, 3 of which aren't even relevant....  So no.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: TexasRunner on December 06, 2017, 03:33:30 PM
nothing is proven yet.

I'm assuming that you don't consider multiple people pleading guilty to felony charges as proof of anything illegal happening?

You literally cut my quote down to that one snippet.

I had been on the fence but I'm adding Sol to the ignore list...
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: JLee on December 06, 2017, 03:35:25 PM
9.  Women's rights/issues
Saying some inappropriate things in a private setting years ago doesn't deter me or change my opinion.  Other than that, I don't see any other rights that have changed or degraded...  Still waiting on someone to point some out.

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/women/reports/2017/04/25/430969/100-days-100-ways-trump-administration-harming-women-families/

Quote
By undoing the Fair Pay and Safe Workplaces Executive Order, Trump eliminated a requirement for federal contractors to provide employees with basic information about their pay, including hours worked, overtime earnings, and any pay deductions. Such information is critical for all workers—particularly women, who are more likely to work in hourly jobs—to ensure that they are being paid what they have earned.

This seems like a stretch and isn't specifically targeted at women.  He was removing regulations and the drastic overreaching of the previous president.  Was he focused specifically on removing women's rights when he signed this...?  Probably not.

Also I would gander that there is a massively statistical over-representation of men in the jobs described, thus naturally affecting women less predominantly than men, since the description is in regards to information that pertains to all workers, (IE hours, pay etc) rather than specifically women.

Quote
The Trump budget would cut $403 million in health profession and nurse training programs, jobs that are disproportionately held by women workers.

Not specifically aimed at women.

The first one is irrelevant because there's more men than women, but the second one is irrelevant because it's "not specifically aimed at women"?

You can't have it both ways.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: TexasRunner on December 06, 2017, 03:46:14 PM
The first one is irrelevant because there's more men than women, but the second one is irrelevant because it's "not specifically aimed at women"?

You can't have it both ways.

Two different points refuted with two different arguments, so why not?
Reducing spending on one area of training is not equal to targeting women's rights.



I think the conversation may need to swing to you guys defining exactly what you believe "women's rights" are.

I consider them (1) equal pay for the same work, (2) right to vote or (3) the same rights as anyone else would get...  The federal government reducing spending on an educational program is not the same as targeting women's rights....
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 06, 2017, 04:09:51 PM
nothing is proven yet.

I'm assuming that you don't consider multiple people pleading guilty to felony charges as proof of anything illegal happening?

You literally cut my quote down to that one snippet.

I had been on the fence but I'm adding Sol to the ignore list...

Well it does seem to be the relevant portion.  In context, you were arguing that there was nothing to worry about until something is proven, and you think nothing is proven yet so there's nothing to worry about.  Better?

I was just pointing out that many of us consider a guilty plea to a felony charge as proof of guilt.  I realize that a plea is not technically the same as a conviction, but that seems like a semantic difference in this case.

But while we're on the topic, Trump has lost something like 40 court cases in his life, where a judge banged a gavel and said "guilty", and yet many of his supporters continue to call Clinton a "criminal" despite her never even going to court.  This is the sort of cognitive dissonance that so concerns me about this situation, like he could get impeached for perjury or obstruction or treason and it just wouldn't matter.  nothing will happen to him.  He's Teflon Don, immune to facts and all laws, living in his own fantasy version of reality that exists only in his head and is made manifest for the rest of us by supporters who believe his every word is unassailable truth.

Eventually reality is going to have to snap back into hard focus, as facts reassert themselves.  Hopefully that gets triggered by something short of a mushroom cloud.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: cliffhanger on December 06, 2017, 04:31:53 PM
Hey Dabnasty, I did want to address this, as I was one of posters talking about racist policy.

I absolutely agree that words and rhetoric have an impact, and Trump has no tact. I'm sure most of us would say that race relations in the US have been on the decline for several years. But why do we think this? Is there some metric we can base this decline off of? What has caused the tension? What is the solution? I can't give you a solid answer on any of these questions, and the answers are likely pretty complicated. This is why I point to something real and understandable as a policy that disproportionately and intentionally harms others, so we have a defined issue that we can fight together.

I know this is a pretty high bar to set, but it's the best real solution I can think of. I'd wager that minorities trapped in generational poverty, what I think is the largest racial issue in the country, is not driven by rhetoric. It's driven by policy of city, states, and federal government, in that order. This is why I weigh Trump's actions by 80% and his words by 20%.

I do disagree with the logic behind a couple of your statements; I hope we can discuss.

His campaign has caused damage to race relations since the beginning. The societal changes he has caused worry me more than any legal actions he has taken. Our government is made up of not only the laws we have in place, but the people and what is happening inside their heads.

I would argue that the problem is two fold. Trump says something that's offensive and controversial. The media assigns the worst possible racist motive to his statements and takes it out of context. I think his feud with Rep. Frederica Wilson over a phone call to a slain soldier's widow is a good example of this. Rep. Wilson began by suggesting Trump was uncaring and the soldier "knew what he signed up for, but I guess it still hurts." So, with only that quote from a politically charged, showboating Rep, most media outlets assign the best possible motive to Rep. Wilson and the worst possible motive to Trump. Then, of course, Trump attacks back, and it turns into a shit-show of stupidity. Charging this instance, no matter how stupid on Trump's part, as racism does really harm us culturally. I want to fight racism as much as you, but it harms the cause when we assign racism to everything. That white kid who shot up a church is racist. We could argue that the police officer who shot a black man in the back was motivated by racism. We don't care about these anymore because everything's racist.

OK, so that was longer and more rambling than I intended. I guess the gist of my argument is that I think you don't have the complete picture. Damage to race relations did not get set in motion by Trump's campaign. A large part, but not all, of this damage does come from unjustly charging Trump of racism without evidence. It will not stop until we take feelings completely out of the argument and point to actual racism that we can fight together.

I would agree that Trump did not suddenly create the racial tension we have today but I'm also not sure I would agree that race relations have been on the decline. Like you said it's more a matter of what the media decides to report on and we have no metric to measure. And yes, I do blame anti trump media for overplaying the small things but on the other hand he's said plenty of and done plenty of horrible things that are just as horrible in context. Do you really feel that touting a Muslim ban is taken out of context? Or calling Mexicans immigrants rapists and murderers? There are so many examples in this thread, most of which I don't feel are overplayed.

There's a tactic to create negative feelings toward a group of people that trump and the right wing media in particular uses everyday (again, not just trump but he has legitimized the feelings that already existed). When Fox News and even more so online outlets like Breitbart find every case in the US where an illegal immigrant, transgender person, gay person, or Muslim has committed a crime and report on it as if it is national news, that leads people who consume that media to believe it is the norm. There may have been 1,000 other murders that day, some of them against one of these groups, but that's not the message they want to send.

Your comment on the media blowing every little thing up as racist has some merit but if you are getting that message through a right-leaning news outlet, remember that they are going to take the worst examples of everything. Much like they pick out the minorities who commit crimes they will pick out the ridiculous news sources like Daily KOS, Rachel Maddow and even celebrities who don't know shit and they'll assign everything they say to the "liberals". For the record I don't take those sources seriously at all. They do whine too much. That doesn't mean everyone who is anti-trump is whining along with them.

This topic is broad enough that it's tough to stay on track but I would like to add one more thing. During the campaign trump tweeted an info graphic (terrible little things) claiming that 81% of whites murdered in 2015 were killed by blacks and other completely false statistics on murder. The real number is 15% and most of those were people who knew each other so it wasn't the mugger in an alley scenario that he's trying to scare us with. Even if the stats were accurate this is not something a president should be doing. What purpose does it serve? to get people riled up and scared? But it wasn't true. He, as a person who has followers who take what he says as fact while discounting anyone who disagrees now have another little "fact" to fuel their hatred.

http://www.factcheck.org/2015/11/trump-retweets-bogus-crime-graphic/ (http://www.factcheck.org/2015/11/trump-retweets-bogus-crime-graphic/)

I think that at the end of the day, we have a lot of agreement on the potential harm of powerful folks misrepresenting the truth whether it's Fox News, CNN, or even Trump. Everybody has some bias, and these organizations and people have incentive to make anything more outrageous than it seems. Scott Adams does talk a lot about the persuasion of Trump (http://blog.dilbert.com/2015/08/13/clown-genius/) if you're interested in another take. I wish things could be different, but I don't see how this cycle will end. It's almost like we're in an outrage economic cycle. We live in great times, so the supply of real world outrage far outstrips the demand. The gap has to be manufactured.

Trump is a classic example of a fear mongering politician. Lot's of politicians (and the media) are guilty of using this tactic and it is insidious but trump has taken it to another level. I think we would all benefit from trying to better understand our own psychology but just as a start I would recommend some research on why fear mongering is so effective.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fearmongering (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fearmongering)
https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2012/10/why-are-political-ads-so-frightening.html  (https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2012/10/why-are-political-ads-so-frightening.html)

Trump may have taken it to the next step, but we're currently trying to shoot through the roof. Let's just stop

https://youtu.be/S0mUp2-LygU (https://youtu.be/S0mUp2-LygU)
https://youtu.be/wVckRJvuBQY (https://youtu.be/wVckRJvuBQY)

I guess the best thing I can do is what I control. Be civil and calm myself while others aren't. It won't help on the national political level, but at least it will make a difference to me and those around me.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: cliffhanger on December 06, 2017, 05:05:21 PM
I respectfully disagree with you cliffhanger, that  "a large part, but not all, of this damage does come from unjustly charging Trump of racism without evidence. It will not stop until we take feelings completely out of the argument and point to actual racism that we can fight together." I think there is plenty of evidence that previously the Democratic party, and then at some point Republicans inflamed racial divisions, in both their rhetoric, policies and also jerrymanding to win elections. There is a ton of evidence of this, which as I'm at work I can't cite, but you can dip your toes in by looking at robocalls and mailings done which were funded by Karl Rove. In the state I am in (NC) the jerrymanding done to increase Republican control by having African American votes be concentrated or split depending on what would work, was so bad it was declared unconstitutional. However it didn't undo the election results and we are still dealing with it. Democrats, by saying that everyone in this country should have access to good education, healthcare, jobs, etc is NOT racist. It's what this country stands for. That politicians who say it is not a level playing field are simply pointing out the obvious. Don't shoot the messenger.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/05/trump-butler-anthony-senecal-facebook-kill-obama/#
I don't need any additional evidence that Trump is actively hostile and contemptuous to anyone who is not like him. The whole Obama is from Kenya should be enough for anyone. Or that the KKK endorsed him as a candidate. Or the lawsuits. Or the people he favors, such as his longtime butler Anthony Senecal whom he kept on even after his incredibly racist comments were publicized. Or Steven Bannon who said at the 2016 Republican Convention "We are the party of the alt-right."  If you don't understand why a huge percentage of the US population feels alienated by having Trump be in office, not sure I can help you. I think it's more Trump supporters do understand, and either don't care, or share the same views.

I think the gerrymandering you brought up is a great point. I'm of the general opinion that redistricting needs some serious reform. I still hate what they're doing, even if I give them a complete pass on racism charges. At best they are trying to solidify political power. I looked into it a little and thought this was a decent opposition from a conservative perspective (http://dailysignal.com/2017/05/24/north-carolina-strikes-fifth-time-supreme-court-redistricting/). As best I can describe, redistricting these two districts to include more democrats would produce the same results as redistricting to include more black people. A previous case ruled that the plaintiffs had to provide what an alternative non-racially drawn district map would like look to validate their claim that the district was racially drawn. They didn't do that in this case. Obviously I accept the ruling of the court, I just thought it an interesting read to hear the other perspective. Check out Justice Alito's response too if you have the time.

My point is that something like this case is a big deal. We should be focusing on this and others like it, but we don't because the overused charge of racism dilutes the case.

As for the second half of your post. I really don't want to defend Trump on the bad things he has done, like the birther thing or keeping Senecal around. However, I don't think it's fair to judge a potential president by the people that endorse him. And it is definitely not right to generalize his supporters as not caring about all of these things. Isn't it possible that we weighed all the bad things about Trump, and still voted for him even though we don't support those bad things?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 06, 2017, 05:48:01 PM
Provides links of literally 50+ examples of how women are worse off under Trump.

"Well, look man, these policies aren't TARGETING WOMEN SPECIFICALLY."

Like, how am I supposed to have an honest debate here? Of course Trump isn't going to sign into law a bill that says women can only earn $20/hour. It's not going to be explicit. But there's at least 100 examples (probably more for those with more time to Google) of women being worse off, losing rights, etc.  Just because none are an explicit target doesn't mean the whole picture isn't worth viewing.

Honestly, how am I supposed to have this discussion?  Every point gets explained away because it's not explicit.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: snapperdude on December 07, 2017, 06:46:44 AM
nothing is proven yet.

I'm assuming that you don't consider multiple people pleading guilty to felony charges as proof of anything illegal happening?

You literally cut my quote down to that one snippet.

I had been on the fence but I'm adding Sol to the ignore list...

Sol, are you going to be okay? Remember, there are hotlines to help you deal with life's devastating moments.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: TexasRunner on December 07, 2017, 07:25:53 AM
And you guys wonder why its so hard for people like OP who are genuinely curious to get actual responses.

I'm out.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: TheOldestYoungMan on December 07, 2017, 10:20:43 AM

Honestly, I did see a grudging respect of HRC from a very few of the older guard of the Republicans. The ones who never endorsed Trump, and the very few who even said they were voting for Clinton. (Including George HW Bush.)

On the other side: I'm sorry, but I don't see the inability of Democrats to have grudging respect for Trump as anything to call them out for. He is not worthy of it.

Oh agreed, Trump is total garbage and that's cool.  But Romney, McCain, and Bush got the same treatment as Trump did, that's my point.  Right Now!  Finally! The opposition candidate deserves the treatment, but the power of treating someone that way, the impact that has, was all pissed away.  The very first time you dump coffee on someone and walk out of the meeting, that has an impact.  The very first time you end a conversation and leave the room because your opponent is unworthy of further engagement, that has an impact.

Democrats have been throwing up their hands and leaving the room for 16 years now.  There are people driving now who were not alive to see Bill Clinton testifying about something that should never have been out there for public consumption, to see a blatantly politically motivated sex scandal disrupt the highest levels of government.  The next election will see people vote who didn't see how the war started, who don't know the history, and who do not care about it (because it isn't relevant anymore).

Being disrespectful isn't acceptable.  Full stop.  Justifying that behavior "because reasons" is whataboutism.  A five year old learns this, it doesn't matter what that other kid did to you, YOU are judged based on YOUR actions and what comes out of YOUR mouth.  I can have compassion for when you've been treated badly, I can have compassion for when your emotions run high, but as I'm injecting the needle to execute a criminal I'm not hurling slurs at him.  Prisoners are addressed by title, the scum of the earth accused are accorded a basic dignity.  You can't sling mud without getting down there with the pigs, and you are de-facto a pig at that point.

A huge criticism of Trump, and rightly so, John Oliver put it very well, is whataboutism.  But there's an element to that criticism that is entirely disingenuous.  When Barack Obama was massively abusing the power of the executive office "because congress wouldn't do it" there were those of us screaming that it wasn't OK to do that, and that we'd all regret it.  And Democrats came back at us with two arguments, the default: Stop being racist, and the other: well what about when George W. did this, you didn't mind then?

And we were screaming:  WE DID MIND THEN!  I said when BO abused his power to create the net neutrality rules that we would all regret it when the next president came up, because then undoing it would be so easy, and here we are.  It matters how you do things.  In most cases it matters just as much as what you are doing.  I was apoplectic at George W using "national security" as justification for all sorts of bullshit executive power grabs.  And then BO came in and didn't immediately undo all of those orders, or limit executive power by making those types of orders illegal, which he specifically campaigned on!  He fucking re-issued like fifty of them! It was day two or some shit.

The GOP establishment is being disrupted by the backlash from using whataboutism to defend reprehensible tactics.  People are pissed about how badly congress is doing.  Democrats started the shenanigans with the passage of the ACA, but Republicans using that as an excuse to do the exact same shit for 7 years was not OK.

Likewise, Democrats completely failing to acknowledge that their ideology is at least as divisive as Trump's because of "what about Trump" is not OK.  It doesn't matter that the other guy is worse.  You still have to be good.  Better than them isn't good enough, not when them has clearly decided to give no fucks.

There are mirror-image pathologies playing out here, and unfortunately there is not a path forward anymore that includes throwing up your hands and walking away.  The first group to sit down at the table and act like an adult, however justified they may be in throwing a tantrum and leaving, the first group to genuinely abandon whataboutism, will be at a huge advantage with the electorate.  And you should be scared shitless that it appears to be Republicans in Congress and that it appears to be about taxes.  Democrats are about to miss the fucking train.  Everyone's been tearing their hair out during the most horrible musical chairs dance ever played, the music just stopped and most of the seats are full.  Clothes have been pulled straight and spittle wiped from mouths.  A decision was made to declare victory and move on.  Their is a huge strategic advantage in both sides agreeing to ignore what happened before, lock the chaos away, and move on.  No actual winning was done.  Neither side won.  Both houses burned to the ground.  It will stay that way forever if either side keeps starting fires.  It will never get better until both sides stop.  Trying to get so much power that there's no fight anymore was a fool's errand.  The job is not to make there be no fight, the job is to fight the fight well.

Trump is an opportunity for Congress to sieze back control of everything they've allowed, through their own dysfunction, to fall to the executive.

Once upon a time, Republicans in the House viewed Democrats in the House as the opposition, and the Senate as the enemy.

That's how compromise was possible.  Right now there's this brief window, and it is rapidly closing, where right and left can come together in opposition to Trump, and restore limits on executive power, bring rationality to budgeting and taxation, and focus on things that are both within the purview of the government to fix, and that need to be fixed.

Or we can keep blaming each other, and thinking of Trump voters as a problem for America.

It is somewhat wickedly awesome that Republicans can propose a bill, Democrats oppose it for several reasons, and the President tweet something out that makes obvious 1.  He doesn't know what is going on, 2.  He's a raving lunatic, and 3.  He probably doesn't really care.  It lets the Congress work it out like they're supposed to, as both parties realize they're on their own for the midterms, party unity isn't a thing that's going to be possible, and we're going to have to defend this to our voters, because we won't have the money to win re-election any other way.

For the first time in my life, the President of the United States can be ignored.

Fuckin' wish I had voted for him.  Greatest President in History.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Kris on December 07, 2017, 10:33:51 AM
We'll have to agree to disagree on Dems' treatment of Romney, McCain and Bush.



For the first time in my life, the President of the United States can be ignored.


Not exactly.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/sources-tillerson-mattis-opposed-embassy-move-trump-jerusalem-israel/

Last sentence of this article... in The American Conservative:

“Pay attention: this is what it feels like to live in a nation whose moment has passed.”
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 07, 2017, 10:58:56 AM
For the first time in my life, the President of the United States can be ignored.

Fuckin' wish I had voted for him.  Greatest President in History.

I'm confused.  You think Trump is the greatest President in history because he's so bad at the job?  You think abdicating world leadership is good for America?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Jrr85 on December 07, 2017, 12:19:33 PM
Provides links of literally 50+ examples of how women are worse off under Trump.

"Well, look man, these policies aren't TARGETING WOMEN SPECIFICALLY."

Like, how am I supposed to have an honest debate here? Of course Trump isn't going to sign into law a bill that says women can only earn $20/hour. It's not going to be explicit. But there's at least 100 examples (probably more for those with more time to Google) of women being worse off, losing rights, etc.  Just because none are an explicit target doesn't mean the whole picture isn't worth viewing.

Honestly, how am I supposed to have this discussion?  Every point gets explained away because it's not explicit.

To be fair, much of your argument consists of (1) here is a progressive policy I like, (2) it's being rolled back, which I think is bad (or in one case, just not being moved forward beyond the current state of the law); (3) many people are women, therefore Trump is bad for women.  And of those parts of your argument, much of what you referenced are regulatory and administrative burdens.  There are probably some people who benefit from them.  There are definitely people who are harmed by them.  You assume the cost benefit analysis you didn't do is superior to the cost benefit analysis which someone else may have done. 

And then there's the old standby of equating not subsidizing something (whether through tax and transfer or simply a mandate) with denying access to something. 

Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Jrr85 on December 07, 2017, 12:25:37 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree on Dems' treatment of Romney, McCain and Bush.



For the first time in my life, the President of the United States can be ignored.


Not exactly.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/sources-tillerson-mattis-opposed-embassy-move-trump-jerusalem-israel/

Last sentence of this article... in The American Conservative:

“Pay attention: this is what it feels like to live in a nation whose moment has passed.”

Out of curiosity, is there another country in the world that you don't think we should recognize what they claim as their capital? 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 07, 2017, 12:27:04 PM
You assume the cost benefit analysis you didn't do is superior to the cost benefit analysis which someone else may have done. 

Sure, this is the same calculus women in Alabama have made regarding Roy Moore.  "Well, one the one hand he appears to have a long history of sexual assault against underaged girls, but on the other hand he also really REALLY believes that I shouldn't be allowed to make decisions about my own body, so I guess I have to vote for him anyway?"

I predict Roy Moore will be a Senator.  He'll win his election, and then Republican leadership will decide against any sort of ethics investigation, much less expelling him from the Senate like originally promised. 

And I think they'll use the same defense Kelly Ann and Sarah Huck-Sand use about Trump's sexual assault allegations, "this was litigated by the American people and he's innocent because he was elected."  NO!  The electorate cannot determine criminal guilt or innocence!  Do you not understand how criminal justice works?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: GuitarStv on December 07, 2017, 12:34:18 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree on Dems' treatment of Romney, McCain and Bush.



For the first time in my life, the President of the United States can be ignored.


Not exactly.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/sources-tillerson-mattis-opposed-embassy-move-trump-jerusalem-israel/

Last sentence of this article... in The American Conservative:

“Pay attention: this is what it feels like to live in a nation whose moment has passed.”

Out of curiosity, is there another country in the world that you don't think we should recognize what they claim as their capital?

To be fair, there aren't too many places in the world where a capital city is claimed by two countries.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 07, 2017, 12:36:45 PM
To be fair, there aren't too many places in the world where a capital city is claimed by two countries.

Hrmmmm, not so sure about that.  Capitals get disputed all the time, for all kinds of reasons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_multiple_capitals
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: zoltani on December 07, 2017, 12:41:36 PM
You assume the cost benefit analysis you didn't do is superior to the cost benefit analysis which someone else may have done. 

Sure, this is the same calculus women in Alabama have made regarding Roy Moore.  "Well, one the one hand he appears to have a long history of sexual assault against underaged girls, but on the other hand he also really REALLY believes that I shouldn't be allowed to make decisions about my own body, so I guess I have to vote for him anyway?"

I predict Roy Moore will be a Senator.  He'll win his election, and then Republican leadership will decide against any sort of ethics investigation, much less expelling him from the Senate like originally promised. 

And I think they'll use the same defense Kelly Ann and Sarah Huck-Sand use about Trump's sexual assault allegations, "this was litigated by the American people and he's innocent because he was elected."  NO!  The electorate cannot determine criminal guilt or innocence!  Do you not understand how criminal justice works?

Is that an actual quote from "women in Alabama"?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 07, 2017, 12:47:42 PM
Is that an actual quote from "women in Alabama"?

Of course it is.  I went to Alabama and interviewed every woman in the state and they all gave me that exact answer.

Also, CNN agrees (http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/05/politics/white-women-class-divide-gender-divide/index.html) with me.  Moore enjoyed majority support among white Alabama women both before and after the revelations of his predatory behavior, and they generally cite his position on abortion as the reason why.  This is exactly why the Moore campaign has aired so many ads trying to paint his democratic opponent as a "baby killer" (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/pervert-versus-baby-killer/).
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Kris on December 07, 2017, 12:51:02 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree on Dems' treatment of Romney, McCain and Bush.



For the first time in my life, the President of the United States can be ignored.


Not exactly.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/sources-tillerson-mattis-opposed-embassy-move-trump-jerusalem-israel/

Last sentence of this article... in The American Conservative:

“Pay attention: this is what it feels like to live in a nation whose moment has passed.”

Out of curiosity, is there another country in the world that you don't think we should recognize what they claim as their capital?

You do realize that Israel is a unique situation, yes?

And you did read the article and learn that the president's own Secretary of State and Secretary of Defense have said this is a really bad idea, right?

It is a bad idea for many, many reasons.

This will basically kill any hope for a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian problem. Admittedly, this was never going to go anywhere anyway in the current climate with Netenyahu as prime minister, so frankly that is the least of the worries. But:

It will put American citizens who work at the embassy in danger. This was the main reason for the embassy being in Tel Aviv until now.

This move will further incite Iran and Islamist militants against both the U.S. and Israel, almost certainly leading to more terrorist violence in Israel and the U.S.

The shaky steps that Saudi Arabia and Israel have been taking to form a partnership against the threat posed by Iran is likely to disintegrate. So Iran will be more dangerous in the region as a result.

The U.S. further isolates itself from its European allies with this move. We will be the only country in the world with an embassy in Jerusalem. We are basically removing ourselves as the leader of anything in this situation. Or indeed, as the leader of anything at all on the world stage.

We will now be seen by even our allies in the Middle East as provoking Muslims.

And for what? So that Trump can make his base of evangelical Christians and a small percentage of very right-wing Jewish Republicans happy. That's all it is. It's pathetic. Sad, pathetic, and with consequences that will negatively impact a whole lot of people and the future of any positive influence we can have on the world stage.

EDITED TO add:

Apparently, President Trump did not "fully understand" how colossally fucking stupid this decision was:

http://deadstate.org/white-house-sources-say-trump-did-not-fully-understand-implications-of-his-jerusalem-decision/

LOL yeah, no shit.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: zoltani on December 07, 2017, 12:52:29 PM
Damn dude, you get around. That must have taken a long time. Thanks for your dedication.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: MasterStache on December 07, 2017, 01:09:00 PM
And you guys wonder why its so hard for people like OP who are genuinely curious to get actual responses.

I'm out.

Let's be honest, it's naive to expect any actual sensible arguments. You get the standard answers like "he drained the swamp" except he didn't. Or they "support his policies," which of course have either not been passed or he has done a complete 180 on them. Heck one poster even went on a tirade about being called racist when no one even brought race into the discussion.

I believe a more valid question, as I believe one poster actually claimed to ignore the racism, is how nearly a year into his policy one can still support Trump while casually hand waving away the blatant racism, xenophobia, sexism, and now his vocal support for a child molester? Of course I expect not one single sensible answer as well, because there are no sensible answers? It reminds of the saying "you can't make sense of nonsense."

And Let's be honest about his policies. Many of them are purposefully meant to further oppress ethnic and racial minorities. So claiming you can ignore race while still supporting his policies quite frankly, is contradictory.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Jrr85 on December 07, 2017, 01:55:33 PM
You assume the cost benefit analysis you didn't do is superior to the cost benefit analysis which someone else may have done. 

Sure, this is the same calculus women in Alabama have made regarding Roy Moore.  "Well, one the one hand he appears to have a long history of sexual assault against underaged girls, but on the other hand he also really REALLY believes that I shouldn't be allowed to make decisions about my own body, so I guess I have to vote for him anyway?"

I predict Roy Moore will be a Senator.  He'll win his election, and then Republican leadership will decide against any sort of ethics investigation, much less expelling him from the Senate like originally promised. 

I'm curious, are you really ignorant of the breakdown of views on abortion between genders and party affiliation?  That would seem like an incredible lack of curiosity to rant about it so much without ever thinking to ask, I wonder if women really are as monolithic as I think they are on the issue of abortion?  But it also seems like an incredible choice to choose to portray yourself as ignorant on the issue. 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Wexler on December 07, 2017, 02:15:04 PM
Some of these answers were interesting, as was the breakdown

1. Trump sucks, but he's not a baby killer: we got a little of this, but not as much as I expected because, tbh, this is a rationale that has internally consistent logic, and I would think would be the first refuge of embarrassed Trump voters

2. Wake up sheeple! I voted third party: we got some of this, too.  About as much as I'd expect from a group of college educated high earners who are more likely libertarians

3. KILLARY: about as much of this as I expected (also featured in the responses in point 2 above)

4. Lulz, liberal tearzz: way more than I expected, but this may be because this group skews heavily towards the reddit user base

5. Obama is the real racist: also way more than I expected.  This is the most interesting to me, because I bet some of these people voted for Obama in 2008. I've been probing about what they meant by this, but haven't really gotten any deeper thoughts

6. Gas up the jet, Poppy-Ann and Mitt are expecting us:  Also surprising to me how few seemed to be wealth motivated Trump voters.  This is a wealthy group, but-by and large-the wealthier MMMers come across as liberal.  I think that this would be different on the Bogle boards.  Our higher earning members seem to be mostly dual income wage earners from the coasts

7. Democrats hate our troops! Thank god we have a real patriotic American president who doesn't apologize for America being the best: about as much as I expected.  This is a common sentiment of base voters I am guessing, but not so much in MMM world

Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: TheOldestYoungMan on December 07, 2017, 02:42:05 PM
For the first time in my life, the President of the United States can be ignored.

Fuckin' wish I had voted for him.  Greatest President in History.

I'm confused.  You think Trump is the greatest President in history because he's so bad at the job?  You think abdicating world leadership is good for America?

First off:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Embassy_Act

It ought to change the conversation that he's enforcing a law that was on the fucking books.  Our government just doesn't work.  That's insane.  Congress passes a law in 1995, 4 presidents just straight up don't bother, one finally does, and he's a lunatic because of it and it's somehow his fault.  *facepalm*

I think setting the individual holding the office of the president up as the representative of the U.S on the world stage was a catastrophically stupid thing to do in the first place.  We have ambassadors, we have the state department, there's no reason for a figurehead and every President that ever acted that way should have been ritually eviscerated at the voting booth.

I think if abdicating world leadership is something to be worried about, the ship sailed a long time ago.  I don't think Trump is smart enough to understand what he did, but the sentiments of american foreign policy supported by BO and the fears expressed at this Trump action reek of appeasement.  Israel is a nation under siege.  Go study the history of the actual people living within the borders of that country, read the actual language of the various treaties and agreements and cease-fires, put yourself in the place of someone who lives there, perform the thought-experiment.  There is literally nothing we can do there to make the situation better or worse short of an outright invasion or making them the 51st state.  That whole part of the world is totally fucked, and the end-game involves the total annihilation of Israel by its neighbors, in an outright act of aggression by the Arab world, motivated solely by a hateful, racist ideology.

If appeasement worked, I'd call for the full evacuation of every non-Palestinian from Israel and surrendering the country, then I'd give the Israeli's some part of New Mexico we aren't using and enjoy the tax revenue.  But it doesn't.  They hate us over there, they hate us over here, the Islamic world is overwhelmingly extremist, racist, and violent, toward us and anyone who thinks like us.  It is a religion of violence, and anyone who claims otherwise has not read their book.  Israel defends itself by defeating every invasion thoroughly and completely.  And the longer the Arab world insists that no compromise is possible, the less anything but full throated support of Israel is defensible.  I personally feel like the rejection of the two state proposal and aggressive war by virtually every neighboring state and the Palestinians in 1947 was the end of it.  They decided to stop talking and fight it out, Israel won, and anybody who says anything to the Palestinians besides "get over it" is doing them a huge disservice.  One major reason you don't go to war is that you might lose.  They lost.

I...that history, from 1920 to now, is 100 years of just...gah.  And I can't believe that Trump understands it.  So I can understand a knee-jerk objection to him just flailing around in one of the most dangerous areas of the world, but I'm not super worried it's going to lead to the end of America.  That's not any different from the over-reaction on the right from Obama's World Apology Tour.  Very little of our impact on the world comes from POTUS.  And this thing specifically?  Naw.  They'll be offended by our embassy placement?  Fuck them, they're offended by our very existence.  Why not, they should be worried about offending us?  Why is OK for them to behave that way?  Why can't they be expected to be nice to us?

Also...objections related to embassy security?  Really?  *shakes head* I thought that wasn't an important qualification for president, ya'all need to make up your mind.


It will put American citizens who work at the embassy in danger. This was the main reason for the embassy being in Tel Aviv until now.

The U.S. further isolates itself from its European allies with this move. We will be the only country in the world with an embassy in Jerusalem. We are basically removing ourselves as the leader of anything in this situation. Or indeed, as the leader of anything at all on the world stage.


There are 10 countries with diplomatic missions in Jerusalem already, including the U.S.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diplomatic_missions_in_Israel

These are not "embassies to Israel" or "embassies to Palestine" but rather "missions to Jerusalem."

It is a rhetorical difference not a practical one.  The objection is partisan, not borne of any actual understanding that the danger is higher.  Any American personnel in the arab world are at risk, all the time, because they hate us.  Our embassy in Tel Aviv wasn't safe, our embassy in Jerusalem isn't safe, and it's because they are racist, bigoted, violent, assholes.  The actual capital, the government of Israel is in Jerusalem, and it is stupid to attempt to appease anyone by calling our embassy there something else.  At least as stupid as calling it an embassy just because they would rather you didn't, but still stupid.

The crazy thing is that if the arab world decided to attack Israel over this you'd blame Trump.  Do you get that that is perverted thinking?

You walk through the park and if you get mugged it's the mugger's fault.  Stop blaming the victim.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: RangerOne on December 07, 2017, 02:50:48 PM
It was a pretty complicated decision, but I voted for Trump and don't regret it. These answers are just off the top of my head, but perhaps I could elaborate later.

1. With the rate premiums have been rising, I don't think the ACA is sustainable long-term so I have never seriously considered it a FIRE option (10 years off). I'm not well versed on the issue tbh, but I generally don't support the idea of forcing the purchase of health care. I believe people should be free to choose what is best for their lives.

2. The majority of taxpayers will pay less next year. I support the tax plan, even though I don't like the manner in which it was passed and the deficit increase. Get your spending under control, Government!

3. I'm skeptical of the notion that Trump campaign colluded with Russia to win the election. The most recent 'bombshell' ABC report about Flynn had to be corrected or erroneous reporting and the author was suspended for this behavior. I'll remain open to this when more facts come in. This is possibly something that could flip me for the next election.

4. To this day, I still say that one of the best executive orders was Trump's rollback of unnecessary regulation. I am not in the camp that more regulation = good. If someone could point out a specific one that causes harm, we can surely discuss.

5. I predict this will be the biggest test of his Presidency. I think it's really too early to tell.

6. Don't like it. D-

7. I'm not aware of any harm or potential harm to the environment that Trump has done.

8. Race relations have been degrading many years before Trump. I remember Obama talking if he had a son, he'd look like Travvon Martin. I remember the media lying about 'hands up don't shoot' concerning Michael Brown. The behavior of politics and media surrounding these two events flipped the direction of race relations. What has Trump done that's damaging?

9. What has Trump done that's damaging? What specific rights don't women have that they did during Obama's term?

With respect to actual concrete changes in the form of policy I am not surprised to find most of his supporters would have no major issues. Not much has been done one way or the other and most of it is in line with general Republican thinking.

With regards to what he has done to harm race relations I think a lot of that depends on how you view the media. I suspect that most people who are okay with Trump distrust the media more than they do Trump. Not a position I would take given his track record, but maybe that characterization is too black and white.

I fully sympathize and acknowledged that the 24 hour news cycle is full of a lot of bullshit. But news agency that lean right or left both equally spew bullshit so if you are more centrists you have to take reported facts for what they are and try to tune out the narrative they wrap them in. Major news orgs like Fox and CNN in their most basic reporting tend not to report blatant lies, though you may find the conclusions they draw laughable.

I think Trumps continual attacks on the media are doing great harm because the reality is the media is our only tool to hold politicians accountable for misleading us. It is not a coincidence that every country more corrupt than ours has state run media, see exhibit A, Russia. From that angle I think Trumps need to constantly tear down anyone who would challenge him with no respect for their core mandate is corrosive to our democracy. Though I would not carry this so far as worry that he will become a dictator. I just think it is the first step along the path to a more corrupt and less accountable government with a less powerful media.

Clearly you have noted some things said under Obama that left you feeling like he was overstepping and degrading race relations. That is fine. But transgressions by a previous president against your sense of what is overstepping do not excuse similar behavior from others. And at least half the country feels Trump regularly oversteps in his views on white nationalists and certain immigrant communities. Now you may find these statements to be true or funny, or not too big a deal. But consider that many felt the same way about the statements Obama made that may have bothered you.

Most would agree race relations have never been perfect in the US. I don't find Obama to be any kind of turning point except that he happened to be half black at a time when BLM became a thing.

Views on Mexican immigration have always been poor in this country. Frankly at times I fall into some of those negative views and I am freakin half mexican by blood. So I know that typical US culture doesn't breed people with a particularly good view of Mexican immigration.

The turning point against Muslims is easy to pin point, probably 9/11 for most of us. Before that sure certain religious groups like Israeli Jews hated them, but really most of the US were indifferent until they posed a physical threat. Isis and the refugee crises has understandably made this even worse.

But in most of these areas I feel like Trump is reinforcing the worst of the conservative narrative with regards to these three main groups. For you or others of a similar mind you may find it refreshing, and I am not saying we should bend to the extreme left on all things and grievances. But there are more rational voices that are center left and center right willing to compromise to alleviate the fears of both conservative and liberal constituents.

Trump is not one of those rational center right voices. His fuel derives from overselling fear and passion in his base on long standing grievances. I don't expect that to change as long as he is a public figure.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: RangerOne on December 07, 2017, 03:26:20 PM
[quote author=TheOldestYoungMan link=topic=82376.msg1799391#msg1799391
Anyone who can engage a smug liberal and walk away seemingly unfazed can win an election now, that's how intolerable that style is.  As it happens, yes, the Trump voter will forgive anything if their candidate can make you go apoplectic.
[/quote]

This is the real problem. Nearly all other considerations can be ignored if you can get down in the pit and fight.

We need politicians who can appeal to peoples rational side and find compromises that both win for their constituents, compromise, and work out problems without having to tear the other side down.

I am hopeful the pendulum will swing back towards moderation, but I suspect things will have to get worse before we have a chance of going back towards a more centrist political arena.

On our worst days most of us scan get smug. But on the job when you are trying to work on hard problems with people you don't fully agree with, there is zero room for smugness or arrogance. Shitting on your political opponents just forces the opposite reaction. But I guess the later is more news worthy.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: zoltani on December 07, 2017, 03:45:06 PM
My fear is that whoever the dems put forth in 2020 will lose because their campaign will focus on the fact that they are not trump. That and they'll play identity politics again.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: jrhampt on December 07, 2017, 03:56:00 PM
My fear is that whoever the dems put forth in 2020 will lose because their campaign will focus on the fact that they are not trump. That and they'll play identity politics again.

Trump plays identity politics too, and it seems to work well for him.  The only difference is that he caters to the white male christian coal miner identity.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: zoltani on December 07, 2017, 04:19:18 PM
My fear is that whoever the dems put forth in 2020 will lose because their campaign will focus on the fact that they are not trump. That and they'll play identity politics again.

Trump plays identity politics too, and it seems to work well for him.  The only difference is that he caters to the white male christian coal miner identity.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Trump voters are _______! (Racist, sexist, bigots, white male Christian coal miners, etc)

Another example is a thread on here during the election in which the op wanted to know how to comfort her minority neighbors after another neighbor put up a trump sign in their yard. The op made so many assumptions about the identity of the trump supporter, their neighbors, their neighbors' views, their races, political views, all based on a sign. Everyone must fit neatly into their identity box. It's dichotomous thinking, and it's rampant right now, on both sides.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Wexler on December 07, 2017, 05:21:50 PM
My fear is that whoever the dems put forth in 2020 will lose because their campaign will focus on the fact that they are not trump. That and they'll play identity politics again.

Trump plays identity politics too, and it seems to work well for him.  The only difference is that he caters to the white male christian coal miner identity.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Trump voters are _______! (Racist, sexist, bigots, white male Christian coal miners, etc)

Another example is a thread on here during the election in which the op wanted to know how to comfort her minority neighbors after another neighbor put up a trump sign in their yard. The op made so many assumptions about the identity of the trump supporter, their neighbors, their neighbors' views, their races, political views, all based on a sign. Everyone must fit neatly into their identity box. It's dichotomous thinking, and it's rampant right now, on both sides.

Yeah, but thinking identity politics is bad is different than pointing out that it works or doesn't work.  I think lying is bad, but it works in politics.

I'm also not totally sold on the idea that conservatives are made because liberals are mean and smug.  If we were nicer to Trump voters, I don't think any of you would vote any differently.  Trump is an asshole, and it didn't matter to his voters at all.  He was their asshole, and he was an asshole to the people they hate.  So, I think it's pretty self-serving of Trump voters to suddenly be so victimized because liberals are mean.  So what if we don't invite you around anymore?  You think we suck. 

 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: lost_in_the_endless_aisle on December 07, 2017, 06:40:07 PM
My fear is that whoever the dems put forth in 2020 will lose because their campaign will focus on the fact that they are not trump. That and they'll play identity politics again.
The Dems behave as if they have absolutely no political vision to express and instead want to convert technocratic mumbling and cynical identity politics into victory. Along with her baggage (much of it contrived by political opponents), lack of big-picture thinking was a major problem with Hillary's campaign. Trump's political vision--though it often resembles a Mel Gibson acid trip--at least enables him to create a compelling narrative about how he would lead instead of merely legislate.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: bacchi on December 07, 2017, 07:56:29 PM
My fear is that whoever the dems put forth in 2020 will lose because their campaign will focus on the fact that they are not trump. That and they'll play identity politics again.
The Dems behave as if they have absolutely no political vision to express and instead want to convert technocratic mumbling and cynical identity politics into victory. Along with her baggage (much of it contrived by political opponents), lack of big-picture thinking was a major problem with Hillary's campaign. Trump's political vision--though it often resembles a Mel Gibson acid trip--at least enables him to create a compelling narrative about how he would lead instead of merely legislate.

She lost because typical Democratic voters didn't turn out. Look at Michigan. Those voters didn't turn to Trump because he had a more inspiring vision. They simply didn't show up at the polls.

If the Dem voters have a reason to vote -- and voting "not Trump" might be enough -- they could win. Virginia is a good example of this.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Dabnasty on December 07, 2017, 09:56:59 PM
My fear is that whoever the dems put forth in 2020 will lose because their campaign will focus on the fact that they are not trump. That and they'll play identity politics again.

Trump plays identity politics too, and it seems to work well for him.  The only difference is that he caters to the white male christian coal miner identity.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Trump voters are _______! (Racist, sexist, bigots, white male Christian coal miners, etc)

Another example is a thread on here during the election in which the op wanted to know how to comfort her minority neighbors after another neighbor put up a trump sign in their yard. The op made so many assumptions about the identity of the trump supporter, their neighbors, their neighbors' views, their races, political views, all based on a sign. Everyone must fit neatly into their identity box. It's dichotomous thinking, and it's rampant right now, on both sides.

I don't think this comment says that all people who voted for Trump are ______, It says that he catered to that group. Would you dispute that? And based on statistics it worked out for him - white male Christians vote. Obviously lots of women and other races voted for him as well but who voted isn't the point, it's how identity is used by a candidate/party.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: accolay on December 07, 2017, 10:31:02 PM
First off:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Embassy_Act

It ought to change the conversation that he's enforcing a law that was on the fucking books.  Our government just doesn't work.  That's insane.  Congress passes a law in 1995, 4 presidents just straight up don't bother, one finally does, and he's a lunatic because of it and it's somehow his fault.  *facepalm*

1. If you don't understand why moving the US embassy to Jerusalem is a bad idea, then I can't help you. Trump is not enforcing a law, he is only attempting to pander to a certain group by this move, and does not understand the implications of doing so.
2. It was the last three presidents who deferred from moving the embassy: Clinton, Bush, Obama.
3. You should also really read your own source:
Quote
From 1998 to June 2017, the relocation of the embassy from Tel Aviv was suspended by the sitting President semi-annually based on national security concerns as provided for in section 7 of the Act.
If that makes me a smug liberal to point that out... well... I'd rather be a smart ass than a dumb ass.

Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: lost_in_the_endless_aisle on December 07, 2017, 10:48:54 PM
First off:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Embassy_Act

It ought to change the conversation that he's enforcing a law that was on the fucking books.  Our government just doesn't work.  That's insane.  Congress passes a law in 1995, 4 presidents just straight up don't bother, one finally does, and he's a lunatic because of it and it's somehow his fault.  *facepalm*

1. If you don't understand why moving the US embassy to Jerusalem is a bad idea, then I can't help you. Trump is not enforcing a law, he is only attempting to pander to a certain group by this move, and does not understand the implications of doing so.
2. It was the last three presidents who deferred from moving the embassy: Clinton, Bush, Obama.
3. You should also really read your own source:
Quote
From 1998 to June 2017, the relocation of the embassy from Tel Aviv was suspended by the sitting President semi-annually based on national security concerns as provided for in section 7 of the Act.
If that makes me a smug liberal to point that out... well... I'd rather be a smart ass than a dumb ass.
I'm unconvinced it's a bad idea because, really, how successful were Clinton, Bush, Obama at securing a resolution to the Israeli/Palestinian situation? I forget the word for doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result...

I agree that Trump's motivations are probably not enlightened with respect to the decision but that doesn't necessarily mean (https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-06/israelis-will-pay-for-trump-s-jerusalem-gambit) the decision is a bad one; here's an excerpt:

Yet there is one possible silver lining to the coming storm -- a consequence of the decision that may affect the calculus of the peace process more positively. Trump, intentionally or not, is signaling to all concerned that he is unafraid of backing Israel in ways that go further than the traditional pro-Israel U.S. stance.

That’s a huge threat to the Palestinians -- if peace talks fail, Trump could be prepared to support Israeli annexation of more of the West Bank. And it’s an implicit promise to the Israelis that also contains an implicit threat: Given how generous Trump is being to Israel, its leaders had better agree to whatever deal Trump will seek to impose on them -- or else.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: accolay on December 07, 2017, 11:05:28 PM
That’s a huge threat to the Palestinians -- if peace talks fail, Trump could be prepared to support Israeli annexation of more of the West Bank. And it’s an implicit promise to the Israelis that also contains an implicit threat: Given how generous Trump is being to Israel, its leaders had better agree to whatever deal Trump will seek to impose on them -- or else.[/i]

So Clinton, Bush, Obama... and every president since the '40s didn't solve Middle East peace, so we should just take a shit on this?  Or else what? Will more dead military make America great again?

I'm sure organizations that include suicide bombers are really worried about what a Trump deal means for them.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: lost_in_the_endless_aisle on December 07, 2017, 11:13:34 PM
That’s a huge threat to the Palestinians -- if peace talks fail, Trump could be prepared to support Israeli annexation of more of the West Bank. And it’s an implicit promise to the Israelis that also contains an implicit threat: Given how generous Trump is being to Israel, its leaders had better agree to whatever deal Trump will seek to impose on them -- or else.[/i]

So Clinton, Bush, Obama... and every president since the '40s didn't solve Middle East peace, so we should just take a shit on this?  Or else what? Will more dead military make America great again?

I'm sure organizations that include suicide bombers are really worried about what a Trump deal means for them.
I don't think I parsed the point you're making (what Americans are dying in Israel or Palestine?) but here is a more extreme position (https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-07/trump-s-deregulation-policy-has-minimal-impact-on-stock-market) which was an enjoyable read.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: accolay on December 07, 2017, 11:29:40 PM
I don't think I parsed the point you're making (what Americans are dying in Israel or Palestine?) but here is a more extreme position (https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-07/trump-s-deregulation-policy-has-minimal-impact-on-stock-market) which was an enjoyable read.

I was referring to the "or else."  Are we going to invade Palestine? Shore up Isreal's defenses with our troops?

I'd ask what the plan is, but let's be honest: there is no plan. This guy and his staff are in way over their heads.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: lost_in_the_endless_aisle on December 07, 2017, 11:45:38 PM
I don't think I parsed the point you're making (what Americans are dying in Israel or Palestine?) but here is a more extreme position (https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-07/trump-s-deregulation-policy-has-minimal-impact-on-stock-market) which was an enjoyable read.

I was referring to the "or else."  Are we going to invade Palestine? Shore up Isreal's defenses with our troops?

I'd ask what the plan is, but let's be honest: there is no plan. This guy and his staff are in way over their heads.
Well if you followed the link, that is explained:

The basis for the secret threat to Netanyahu will have to be that, as the most nakedly pro-Israel president ever, Trump has the clout to blame Netanyahu if he is truly responsible for the breakdown of the deal. Trump can say what no other president could: that the world, including pro-Israel American Jews, will believe him if he says Netanyahu is the problem and that he should no longer be prime minister. Trump could even credibly threaten that U.S. support for Israel would be substantially reduced in the future if Netanyahu blinks.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: accolay on December 08, 2017, 01:08:21 AM
Well if you followed the link, that is explained:

The basis for the secret threat to Netanyahu will have to be that, as the most nakedly pro-Israel president ever, Trump has the clout to blame Netanyahu if he is truly responsible for the breakdown of the deal. Trump can say what no other president could: that the world, including pro-Israel American Jews, will believe him if he says Netanyahu is the problem and that he should no longer be prime minister. Trump could even credibly threaten that U.S. support for Israel would be substantially reduced in the future if Netanyahu blinks.

Kindly fix your link for the story in question.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: TheOldestYoungMan on December 08, 2017, 08:47:28 AM

3. You should also really read your own source:
Quote
From 1998 to June 2017, the relocation of the embassy from Tel Aviv was suspended by the sitting President semi-annually based on national security concerns as provided for in section 7 of the Act.
If that makes me a smug liberal to point that out... well... I'd rather be a smart ass than a dumb ass.

OK accolay.  I did read it, and I reject soundly that "because national security" is a good reason to deny the capital of an ally is their capital.  Without the benefit of hindsight I would reject it, but in this case we actually did the experiment.  So lets go down that road:  We don't want to antagonize the League of Arab Nations, because we're afraid of being attacked, so we don't send the embassy.  National Security used as a reason to ignore a law passed by Congress.

Then we were attacked.  And so was Israel.  Repeatedly.  So it didn't work.  Not doing the thing because reason might happen and then reason happened anyway.  Might as well do the thing.
Now if the thing is a bad thing, if causes actual, real harm to someone, then that's why you don't do it.  But this isn't that.  It's actually a good thing to recognize in others what they would like you to recognize.  I'm a woman who wants to marry another woman.  I'm a guy who wants to be referred to as a girl.  My capital is actually over here, as are all of my important government functions, and it'd be great if your personnel that are here specifically to liaise with us were actually here.

What makes you a smug liberal is not that you pointed it out, it's that you wrap your analysis of events in obvious partisan biases and dismiss the opinions of others because they are a "dumbass." It is ideologically inconsistent, because liberalism at its heart is about accepting more than one idea and more than one worldview.  When you refuse to engage because "if you don't already understand I just can't help you, dumbass" you have climbed off the moral high ground to wade deep into the mud.  And there are huge swaths of voters who see this, myself included, and just shake our heads and try to muddle through as best we can.  I improve my understanding of the world through interactions with people who disagree with me, and not all of those people are civil.  That's fine.  I can point out the hypocrisy of that incivility, that's fine too.

How much better off would we be as a world if, instead of going to war with Iraq after 9/11, we had instead moved our embassy to Jerusalem?  Appeasement does not work.  There's your border, you can do whatever the fuck you want to do inside it, and you leave us alone we'll leave you alone.

But yea I totally miscounted how many presidents had ignored it, for whatever reason I was thinking '96 as the start of Clinton1, my bad.  I'm going to blame old age.  No way was 1996 more than five years ago...
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: talltexan on December 08, 2017, 09:28:05 AM
I am new to this thread, but I would love to hear from Trump *Primary* voters as well. I'm assuming everyone here so far was merely comparing him to Sec. Clinton. But I would really like to hear from people who were comparing him to guys like John Kasich.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: accolay on December 08, 2017, 10:32:07 AM
What makes you a smug liberal is not that you pointed it out, it's that you wrap your analysis of events in obvious partisan biases and dismiss the opinions of others because they are a "dumbass." It is ideologically inconsistent, because liberalism at its heart is about accepting more than one idea and more than one worldview.  When you refuse to engage because "if you don't already understand I just can't help you, dumbass" you have climbed off the moral high ground to wade deep into the mud.  And there are huge swaths of voters who see this, myself included, and just shake our heads and try to muddle through as best we can.  I improve my understanding of the world through interactions with people who disagree with me, and not all of those people are civil.  That's fine.  I can point out the hypocrisy of that incivility, that's fine too.

How much better off would we be as a world if, instead of going to war with Iraq after 9/11, we had instead moved our embassy to Jerusalem?  Appeasement does not work.  There's your border, you can do whatever the fuck you want to do inside it, and you leave us alone we'll leave you alone.

But yea I totally miscounted how many presidents had ignored it, for whatever reason I was thinking '96 as the start of Clinton1, my bad.  I'm going to blame old age.  No way was 1996 more than five years ago...

I guess I'll keep not understanding why it makes someone smug to point out what's in a law and why it was an perfectly legit option for prior presidents to defer the embassy move. For over 20 years. And why presidents before them didn't move it there. Got any info on why the Jerusalem Embassy Act was even written?

Sorry if I hurt your feelings but I did not mean to infer that you or anyone with your views was a dumb ass- just that I was not one. But it is hard keeping my multiple worldviews when people keep doing dumb ass, illogical, irrational things.

Last I checked, Bush was a Republican, and a lot of people didn't think things could get worse while he was president. And even his administration deferred from moving the embassy. Yikes.

What if we hadn't invaded Iraq, AND not moved the embassy? Fact- we would have been much better off not invading Iraq. What a waste of good people and treasure. What a mess we created.

As far as Israel, I have difficulty in feeling sorry for them. Not that I want them annihilated, but seems like they could be doing more to not shoot themselves in the foot. This embassy move wont help that. Much rather keep the status quo here then start another war.

Steering this back towards the topic, I think it was Forest Gump who once said, "dumb ass is as dumb ass does" (could be wrong.) I think the president continues to go out of his way to prove that.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: clutchy on December 08, 2017, 11:30:45 AM
I am new to this thread, but I would love to hear from Trump *Primary* voters as well. I'm assuming everyone here so far was merely comparing him to Sec. Clinton. But I would really like to hear from people who were comparing him to guys like John Kasich.

Kasich is my governor (Ohio). 

I voted for Trump in the primary because I knew Kasich would win and I was a little caught up in the MAGA nonsense. 
Between the primary and the election I had dumped Trump as I realized what was happening and who he was.

I voted for Gary Johnson. 


I can't believe people are tolerating trump's nonsense.  I can't believe conservatives and republicans are actually supporting him.  He only sounds like a republican some of the time but honestly the party, supporting Roy Moore.  I just... I just don't understand.  It's madness. 


I have an unclear path going forward.  The democrats don't want me as a constituent so it's unclear how I'll vote but the republican party is a mess.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Kris on December 08, 2017, 12:12:35 PM
I am new to this thread, but I would love to hear from Trump *Primary* voters as well. I'm assuming everyone here so far was merely comparing him to Sec. Clinton. But I would really like to hear from people who were comparing him to guys like John Kasich.

Kasich is my governor (Ohio). 

I voted for Trump in the primary because I knew Kasich would win and I was a little caught up in the MAGA nonsense. 
Between the primary and the election I had dumped Trump as I realized what was happening and who he was.

I voted for Gary Johnson. 


I can't believe people are tolerating trump's nonsense.  I can't believe conservatives and republicans are actually supporting him.  He only sounds like a republican some of the time but honestly the party, supporting Roy Moore.  I just... I just don't understand.  It's madness. 


I have an unclear path going forward.  The democrats don't want me as a constituent so it's unclear how I'll vote but the republican party is a mess.

I submit that the only way the Republican Party will change is to lose all the reasonable people to the Democrats. Make them lose their shirts. Repeatedly. It’s the only possible way to stop the utter madness on the right.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 08, 2017, 12:15:55 PM
The democrats don't want me as a constituent so it's unclear how I'll vote but the republican party is a mess.

The democrats want everyone as a constituent.  Just like the republicans, they are absolutely craven in their lust for your vote.  They will happily accept your support if you are anything short of David Duke.  And the republicans won't even disavow him.

As a general rule, I think democrats want more equality in American life.  They want people to be rewarded for their abilities and accomplishments, not their skin color or birth right.  As long as you are a hard worker, you have nothing to fear from their proposed egalitarian society.  If you are a straight white male who has been skating by only because women and people of color weren't allowed to compete in your arena, then yea you might be fearful of the free market for labor and talent actually becoming more free.

Even that situation doesn't mean democrats don't want your straight white male vote.  They just want you to actually deserve the success you find.  You know, individual responsibility and bootstraps and all that.  Let the cream rise to the top.  Be successful because you've earned it, not because we've systematically suppressed the opportunities for success for all of your competition.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: clutchy on December 08, 2017, 12:39:46 PM


I submit that the only way the Republican Party will change is to lose all the reasonable people to the Democrats. Make them lose their shirts. Repeatedly. It’s the only possible way to stop the utter madness on the right.

I categorically reject that.  In fact I'd say it's gone the opposite direction. 

They've doubled down on voter suppression. 
They've doubled down on crazy. 
They've doubled down on vitriol and false governance.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: clutchy on December 08, 2017, 12:40:45 PM
The democrats don't want me as a constituent so it's unclear how I'll vote but the republican party is a mess.

The democrats want everyone as a constituent.  Just like the republicans, they are absolutely craven in their lust for your vote.  They will happily accept your support if you are anything short of David Duke.  And the republicans won't even disavow him.

As a general rule, I think democrats want more equality in American life.  They want people to be rewarded for their abilities and accomplishments, not their skin color or birth right.  As long as you are a hard worker, you have nothing to fear from their proposed egalitarian society.  If you are a straight white male who has been skating by only because women and people of color weren't allowed to compete in your arena, then yea you might be fearful of the free market for labor and talent actually becoming more free.

Even that situation doesn't mean democrats don't want your straight white male vote.  They just want you to actually deserve the success you find.  You know, individual responsibility and bootstraps and all that.  Let the cream rise to the top.  Be successful because you've earned it, not because we've systematically suppressed the opportunities for success for all of your competition.
 

Call me crazy but I feel they've abandoned the center for the fringes.  I point to Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania as my evidence.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: talltexan on December 08, 2017, 12:54:41 PM
I am new to this thread, but I would love to hear from Trump *Primary* voters as well. I'm assuming everyone here so far was merely comparing him to Sec. Clinton. But I would really like to hear from people who were comparing him to guys like John Kasich.

Kasich is my governor (Ohio). 

I voted for Trump in the primary because I knew Kasich would win and I was a little caught up in the MAGA nonsense. 
Between the primary and the election I had dumped Trump as I realized what was happening and who he was.

I voted for Gary Johnson. 


I can't believe people are tolerating trump's nonsense.  I can't believe conservatives and republicans are actually supporting him.  He only sounds like a republican some of the time but honestly the party, supporting Roy Moore.  I just... I just don't understand.  It's madness. 


I have an unclear path going forward.  The democrats don't want me as a constituent so it's unclear how I'll vote but the republican party is a mess.

I did spend 3 years in Ohio while Kasich was governor. I have never had anyone admit a Trump primary vote to me who wasn't also an Ohio resident under him.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: clutchy on December 08, 2017, 01:06:34 PM
I am new to this thread, but I would love to hear from Trump *Primary* voters as well. I'm assuming everyone here so far was merely comparing him to Sec. Clinton. But I would really like to hear from people who were comparing him to guys like John Kasich.

Kasich is my governor (Ohio). 

I voted for Trump in the primary because I knew Kasich would win and I was a little caught up in the MAGA nonsense. 
Between the primary and the election I had dumped Trump as I realized what was happening and who he was.

I voted for Gary Johnson. 


I can't believe people are tolerating trump's nonsense.  I can't believe conservatives and republicans are actually supporting him.  He only sounds like a republican some of the time but honestly the party, supporting Roy Moore.  I just... I just don't understand.  It's madness. 


I have an unclear path going forward.  The democrats don't want me as a constituent so it's unclear how I'll vote but the republican party is a mess.

I did spend 3 years in Ohio while Kasich was governor. I have never had anyone admit a Trump primary vote to me who wasn't also an Ohio resident under him.
 

Just to be clear I think Kasich is an amazing governor and would have made a great president as well.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Gin1984 on December 08, 2017, 01:21:00 PM
The democrats don't want me as a constituent so it's unclear how I'll vote but the republican party is a mess.

The democrats want everyone as a constituent.  Just like the republicans, they are absolutely craven in their lust for your vote.  They will happily accept your support if you are anything short of David Duke.  And the republicans won't even disavow him.

As a general rule, I think democrats want more equality in American life.  They want people to be rewarded for their abilities and accomplishments, not their skin color or birth right.  As long as you are a hard worker, you have nothing to fear from their proposed egalitarian society.  If you are a straight white male who has been skating by only because women and people of color weren't allowed to compete in your arena, then yea you might be fearful of the free market for labor and talent actually becoming more free.

Even that situation doesn't mean democrats don't want your straight white male vote.  They just want you to actually deserve the success you find.  You know, individual responsibility and bootstraps and all that.  Let the cream rise to the top.  Be successful because you've earned it, not because we've systematically suppressed the opportunities for success for all of your competition.
 

Call me crazy but I feel they've abandoned the center for the fringes.  I point to Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania as my evidence.
Can you please elaborate?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Just Joe on December 08, 2017, 02:14:03 PM
9) Whatever Trump's weaknesses, it doesn't look like he is going to drive us off a cliff or precipitate any disasters (or at least he isn't any more likely than the last few presidents to do so).

Except rile up the folks in the Middle East all over again by taking sides and doing flybys of North Korea perhaps sparking war. I think the war would be a quick one b/c North Korea can't even feed its own people but I would expect them to lob a few nuclear bombs before they were done.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: TheOldestYoungMan on December 08, 2017, 04:05:28 PM

I guess I'll keep not understanding why it makes someone smug to point out what's in a law and why it was an perfectly legit option for prior presidents to defer the embassy move. For over 20 years. And why presidents before them didn't move it there. Got any info on why the Jerusalem Embassy Act was even written?

The act was written at the behest of supporters of Israel in the U.S. who felt it was time, after decades, to recognize the accurate capital of an ally.  Your implication here is that it is OK for a president to ignore an act of congress if they feel the reason congress passed the law didn't pass some sort of (I don't really know because you haven't really said).  The truth is Clinton wasn't willing to risk the political fallout of vetoing the law, and he also knew he could use the provision regarding national security within the act to never actually move on it.  Because national security can always be used as an excuse to thwart the will of the people.  I don't argue that doing it was politically viable.  I argue that doing it was cowardly, weak, and ineffective.  The Cole still got bombed.  9/11 still happened.  Israel was still attacked.  Several times.  Pretty much constantly.  Since 1947.  Maybe you can argue that it made sense for Clinton to defer it as there was active movement on a deal heading into the 2000 Camp David Summit, but the Palestinians are not and have never been interested in a deal.  The wholesale slaughter-not removal or evacuation-but the wholesale slaughter of every jew in Israel is the only acceptable solution to those people.  And that's not me making it up, it's what they publish on state media for broad consumption.  Not recognizing the capital of Israel is appeasement, it is weakness, it has made zero difference in how we are viewed by the Islamic community and any argument to the contrary is partisan trashing.  Trump is a bastard pile of garbage who accidentally did something that was long overdue.  There's no possible way he understands why what he did was right, but the "international community" is wrong on this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement

You cannot reason with the unreasonable.  You just do the right thing and you deal with what happens.

Quote
Sorry if I hurt your feelings but I did not mean to infer that you or anyone with your views was a dumb ass- just that I was not one. But it is hard keeping my multiple worldviews when people keep doing dumb ass, illogical, irrational things.

My feelings aren't hurt.  I stand to gain a lot if even one liberal stops dismissing anyone with different talking points as irrational.  Maybe you'll read a book or talk to someone who was there and realize that the current talking points with respect to Israel have no basis in reality.  The set of assumptions you have to believe to think anything is accomplished by refusing to recognize the actual capital of a country you have diplomatic relations with...it staggers me.  It is in and of itself a denial of reality, an attempt to express an untruth in a profound way as though you could manifest a different history.

Quote
Last I checked, Bush was a Republican, and a lot of people didn't think things could get worse while he was president. And even his administration deferred from moving the embassy. Yikes.

If he was the incarnate of all that was wrong, then he was wrong on this too.  Cherry picking is a thing, that's fine.  I'm guessing the argument you're making here is that as incompetent as he was he still wasn't dumb enough to do this dumb thing, but again, you have yet to state any reason why recognizing Jerusalem is a bad idea.  While actively at war with two Muslim countries we don't want to antagonize muslims?  By establishing an embassy?  With a country we already have diplomatic relations with?  I'd love to understand it but I'm struggling to argue against "if you don't understand I can't explain it."  In the context of open hostility in the middle east it makes even less sense not to recognize Jerusalem.

The U.S. government, at the demand of the Islamic Community, burned a ton of bibles in the middle east that had been brought over for use of and by christian servicemen and women.  One asshole in Florida burned a Koran and the Islamic Community attacked and brutally murdered U.N. aid workers, not even soldiers but aid workers.  In this situation, you blame the asshole in Florida, but any rational person blames the religious extremists who actually did the murder.

They are responsible for what they do, and it makes no damn sense for us to do the wrong thing in some vain attempt to keep crazy people from doing crazy things.

Quote
What if we hadn't invaded Iraq, AND not moved the embassy? Fact- we would have been much better off not invading Iraq. What a waste of good people and treasure. What a mess we created.
Exactly.  But you didn't answer my question.  I make the assumption that the U.S. did have to respond, it would have been sort of nice if we'd taken a moral high-road action such as this.  Our failure to recognize Jerusalem was largely an open hand extended to the Islamic world, and it clearly doesn't care.

Quote
As far as Israel, I have difficulty in feeling sorry for them. Not that I want them annihilated, but seems like they could be doing more to not shoot themselves in the foot. This embassy move wont help that. Much rather keep the status quo here then start another war.

That's the crazy part of your argument.  Nothing Israel has done started any of those conflicts.  Aside from having the audacity to live there at all.  When your existence is offensive you are not to blame for giving offense.  The status quo is: the Palestinians actively and constantly attack the Israelis and always will.  Not the Israeli military.  Not governmental establishments.  They bomb bakeries and private residences.  They blow up busses filled with any random group of people who happen to be in Israel at the moment.  Their grievance is that they started a war they subsequently lost because it turns out Jews aren't actually racially inferior and please mommy won't someone reset the game.  Israel exists in a constant, ongoing state of open conflict with state-funded religious extremists.  And their largest vulnerability is that they do reach out with compassion and they do tolerate people who hate them to coexist with them.  Nothing else like it has ever been seen in history.  Israel absolutely has the capability to wipe out the Palestinians and survive the resulting backlash from the international community, but they won't do it.  Even while being attacked.  And if any ethnic group in the U.S. began behaving like the Palestinians, if tomorrow everyone from Oklahoma just started killing everyone else, we wouldn't stop with expelling them from the rest of the states, we'd burn Oklahoma to the fucking ground.  It'd be two hundred years before anyone wanted to be known as an Oklahoman, and then we'd all get to feel guilty about what we did.

Quote
Steering this back towards the topic, I think it was Forest Gump who once said, "dumb ass is as dumb ass does" (could be wrong.) I think the president continues to go out of his way to prove that.

Well no argument from me, but even a stupid clock is right twice a day...or something...that's not quite right.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: accolay on December 08, 2017, 06:38:17 PM
Your implication here is that it is OK for a president to ignore an act of congress if they feel the reason congress passed the law didn't pass some sort of (I don't really know because you haven't really said).
My implication wasn't that they are "ignoring" a law, but they're actually participating in the law as it was written due to security concerns. How more explicit do you want it? Like Prego- its in there. Maybe you have more insight into why they added that part of the law. But maybe there's some rational 50 years of conflict explanation for it. And just as we were squashing Al Qaeda, this nice little recruitment tool is invented. I already hate being right on that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement
You cannot reason with the unreasonable.  You just do the right thing and you deal with what happens.
Does this count as Godwin's Law?

My feelings aren't hurt.  I stand to gain a lot if even one liberal stops dismissing anyone with different talking points as irrational.
"But it matters for that one starfish..." But that's just it. Talking points aren't a rational discussion meant to inform about a topic or have a different point of view. They come from both sides and half the time they're political nonsense. They're just small quips with no information to get people who have no deeper interest in a topic to agree. Platitudes that don't really have any room for nuance or information. It's a snip to get people angry and on your side. Don't be so surprised if you're dismissed after throwing a talking point at someone who doesn't agree with you and might know a little about your topic.

If he was the incarnate of all that was wrong, then he was wrong on this too. .... In this situation, you blame the asshole in Florida, but any rational person blames the religious extremists who actually did the murder.
Bush wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but he did have Cheney and Rove managing things. I blame the asshole in Florida and the extremists.

That's the crazy part of your argument.  Nothing Israel has done started any of those conflicts.  Aside from having the audacity to live there at all.  When your existence is offensive you are not to blame for giving offense.  The status quo is: the Palestinians actively and constantly attack the Israelis and always will.  Not the Israeli military.
Honestly, if we want to blame anybody, it should be the British, no? To be a fly on the wall when they came up with that idea... If Israel has done nothing to start it, they sure haven't done anything to stop it. Israel doesn't get away squeaky clean here though. Really in recent history we're talking about settlements. Have you seen a map?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/West_Bank_%26_Gaza_Map_2007_%28Settlements%29.png

If they really want it over, do the two state solution. Let Palestine be it's own thing. Israel should get their settlements out of there. Make Jerusalem an international city. If fighting continues after that, then I will STFU.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: lost_in_the_endless_aisle on December 08, 2017, 07:04:11 PM
Well if you followed the link, that is explained:

The basis for the secret threat to Netanyahu will have to be that, as the most nakedly pro-Israel president ever, Trump has the clout to blame Netanyahu if he is truly responsible for the breakdown of the deal. Trump can say what no other president could: that the world, including pro-Israel American Jews, will believe him if he says Netanyahu is the problem and that he should no longer be prime minister. Trump could even credibly threaten that U.S. support for Israel would be substantially reduced in the future if Netanyahu blinks.
Kindly fix your link for the story in question.
I posted two separate Bloomberg articles. The first one points to the correct page with the quote above. For convenience:

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-06/israelis-will-pay-for-trump-s-jerusalem-gambit
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: clutchy on December 08, 2017, 07:29:40 PM
The democrats don't want me as a constituent so it's unclear how I'll vote but the republican party is a mess.

The democrats want everyone as a constituent.  Just like the republicans, they are absolutely craven in their lust for your vote.  They will happily accept your support if you are anything short of David Duke.  And the republicans won't even disavow him.

As a general rule, I think democrats want more equality in American life.  They want people to be rewarded for their abilities and accomplishments, not their skin color or birth right.  As long as you are a hard worker, you have nothing to fear from their proposed egalitarian society.  If you are a straight white male who has been skating by only because women and people of color weren't allowed to compete in your arena, then yea you might be fearful of the free market for labor and talent actually becoming more free.

Even that situation doesn't mean democrats don't want your straight white male vote.  They just want you to actually deserve the success you find.  You know, individual responsibility and bootstraps and all that.  Let the cream rise to the top.  Be successful because you've earned it, not because we've systematically suppressed the opportunities for success for all of your competition.
 

Call me crazy but I feel they've abandoned the center for the fringes.  I point to Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania as my evidence.
Can you please elaborate?
 

Sure, a good portion of the country felt like they had been abandoned for coastal liberals, minorities and the LGBT gender spectrum kids. 
Trump comes along and starts spouting stuff they want to hear while tossing in some "other" language to blame those groups and they get on board. 

Pennsylvania hasn't voted for a Republican since 1988.  That says something to me. 

Perhaps I feel it more acutely because the democratic platform offers me nothing.  In the attempt to widen the tent they lost any type of message that resonates with me.  Maybe net neutrality...

I prefer economic unity not identity politics.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Lagom on December 08, 2017, 10:36:57 PM
Provides links of literally 50+ examples of how women are worse off under Trump.

"Well, look man, these policies aren't TARGETING WOMEN SPECIFICALLY."

Like, how am I supposed to have an honest debate here? Of course Trump isn't going to sign into law a bill that says women can only earn $20/hour. It's not going to be explicit. But there's at least 100 examples (probably more for those with more time to Google) of women being worse off, losing rights, etc.  Just because none are an explicit target doesn't mean the whole picture isn't worth viewing.

Honestly, how am I supposed to have this discussion?  Every point gets explained away because it's not explicit.

Obligatory disclaimer: I dislike both parties. I did not vote the presidential ticket at all because I also disliked the third party options. If I was in a swing state, I would have voted HRC, despite not supporting many parts of the DNC platform, because I don't think a corrupt (as proven in multiple courts of law), middling to bad businessman and sexual predator reality TV star with no relevant experience whatsoever is someone who makes sense to vote in as POTUS. Sadly, I was not surprised when many millions of Americans disagreed.

Anyway, I said in a post some time back that a Trump presidency would be a true stress test of the bounds of cognitive dissonance. This thread alone seems to prove they are just as vast as I surmised. Sol has it right. Trump can do no wrong. People who still support him now cannot allow themselves to feel any differently (or if they admit wrongdoing it has to be explained away by one tu quoque fallacy after another).  It's sad that the America I love has been reduced to this, but I still believe that the arc of the moral universe bends towards justice. May I live long enough to see us finally get there...

PS - smug liberal elitism is absolutely a thing. I live in Silicon Valley, the capital of such behavior. But people on this board complaining about it shouldn't use that as an excuse for their voting patterns if they also want to claim objectivity in their decision-making.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: lost_in_the_endless_aisle on December 08, 2017, 10:56:09 PM
Provides links of literally 50+ examples of how women are worse off under Trump.

"Well, look man, these policies aren't TARGETING WOMEN SPECIFICALLY."

Like, how am I supposed to have an honest debate here? Of course Trump isn't going to sign into law a bill that says women can only earn $20/hour. It's not going to be explicit. But there's at least 100 examples (probably more for those with more time to Google) of women being worse off, losing rights, etc.  Just because none are an explicit target doesn't mean the whole picture isn't worth viewing.

Honestly, how am I supposed to have this discussion?  Every point gets explained away because it's not explicit.

Obligatory disclaimer: I dislike both parties. I did not vote the presidential ticket at all because I also disliked the third party options. If I was in a swing state, I would have voted HRC, despite not supporting many parts of the DNC platform, because I don't think a corrupt (as proven in multiple courts of law), middling to bad businessman and sexual predator reality TV star with no relevant experience whatsoever is someone who makes sense to vote in as POTUS. Sadly, I was not surprised when many millions of Americans disagreed.

Anyway, I said in a post some time back that a Trump presidency would be a true stress test of the bounds of cognitive dissonance. This thread alone seems to prove they are just as vast as I surmised. Sol has it right. Trump can do no wrong. People who still support him now cannot allow themselves to feel any differently (or if they admit wrongdoing it has to be explained away by one tu quoque fallacy after another).  It's sad that the America I love has been reduced to this, but I still believe that the arc of the moral universe bends towards justice. May I live long enough to see us finally get there...

PS - smug liberal elitism is absolutely a thing. I live in Silicon Valley, the capital of such behavior. But people on this board complaining about it shouldn't use that as an excuse for their voting patterns if they also want to claim objectivity in their decision-making.
The obvious corollary is people opposed to Trump generally can't perceive any of his actions as being correct either (or more accurately, can't compartmentalize Trump the buffoon & Trump's decisions so that they can be evaluated separately). The problem with Trump for his opponents in general and the US left in particular is his sloppy, factually deviant rhetoric is too easy to contradict, which leads to intellectual laziness in his progressive opponents and feeds into the smugness machine of late night TV, HuffPo, etc. The test of your beliefs shouldn't be the town fool-in-chief who brings the worst arguments, but rather, should be measured versus the best opposing arguments.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: MasterStache on December 09, 2017, 05:43:36 AM
I am new to this thread, but I would love to hear from Trump *Primary* voters as well. I'm assuming everyone here so far was merely comparing him to Sec. Clinton. But I would really like to hear from people who were comparing him to guys like John Kasich.

Kasich is my governor (Ohio). 

I voted for Trump in the primary because I knew Kasich would win and I was a little caught up in the MAGA nonsense. 
Between the primary and the election I had dumped Trump as I realized what was happening and who he was.

I voted for Gary Johnson. 


I can't believe people are tolerating trump's nonsense.  I can't believe conservatives and republicans are actually supporting him.  He only sounds like a republican some of the time but honestly the party, supporting Roy Moore.  I just... I just don't understand.  It's madness. 


I have an unclear path going forward.  The democrats don't want me as a constituent so it's unclear how I'll vote but the republican party is a mess.

+1 for realizing your mistake before you made it. Kasich for me, was probably the best Republican candidate. But I am not a huge fan of him ever since he practically dismantled the renewable energy industry in Ohio. I saw local companies taking business elsewhere and larger corporations, wanting to run on renewable energy, not even give Ohio a second thought when it came time to open another office/warehouse. Places like Middletown, Dayton and some other struggling communities could use the jobs.

There is an alternative to Republican and Democrat. I registered as a Republican and voted Republican for a while. Likely never again seeing how the party has transformed. Republicans supporting Trump and putting him in office was icing on the cake.  Now I am an independent and vote who I feel is the best candidate. Could be Republican, could be democrat or it could be neither.  No need to pick a side and vote long party lines all the time.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: wenchsenior on December 09, 2017, 09:35:52 AM
The democrats don't want me as a constituent so it's unclear how I'll vote but the republican party is a mess.

The democrats want everyone as a constituent.  Just like the republicans, they are absolutely craven in their lust for your vote.  They will happily accept your support if you are anything short of David Duke.  And the republicans won't even disavow him.

As a general rule, I think democrats want more equality in American life.  They want people to be rewarded for their abilities and accomplishments, not their skin color or birth right.  As long as you are a hard worker, you have nothing to fear from their proposed egalitarian society.  If you are a straight white male who has been skating by only because women and people of color weren't allowed to compete in your arena, then yea you might be fearful of the free market for labor and talent actually becoming more free.

Even that situation doesn't mean democrats don't want your straight white male vote.  They just want you to actually deserve the success you find.  You know, individual responsibility and bootstraps and all that.  Let the cream rise to the top.  Be successful because you've earned it, not because we've systematically suppressed the opportunities for success for all of your competition.
 

Call me crazy but I feel they've abandoned the center for the fringes.  I point to Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania as my evidence.
Can you please elaborate?
 

Sure, a good portion of the country felt like they had been abandoned for coastal liberals, minorities and the LGBT gender spectrum kids. 
Trump comes along and starts spouting stuff they want to hear while tossing in some "other" language to blame those groups and they get on board. 

Pennsylvania hasn't voted for a Republican since 1988.  That says something to me. 

Perhaps I feel it more acutely because the democratic platform offers me nothing.  In the attempt to widen the tent they lost any type of message that resonates with me.  Maybe net neutrality...

I prefer economic unity not identity politics.

I'm confused: What exactly does it say to you?  I don't understand how the bolded statement bolsters your argument. Pennsylvania is predominately white, working and middle class, and not coastal liberal elite.  Yet it has mostly swung blue in  the past few decades.  Perhaps the state will now swing red for the next few decades, at which point you could potentially argue that they are voting that way after a few decades of feeling abandoned by Dem government.  But a single, populist election choice between two unpopular candidates doesn't necessarily bolster that argument (assuming that is what you mean).

I also don't understand your "the Dems don't want my vote" statements. If you personally hold actual conservative or libertarian economic views, then of course the Dems aren't going to work for your vote. That's a feature, not a bug in the Dem party.  Why is that a problem? You don't agree with their policies.  If you have an inflexible anti-abortion stance, then no, the Dems and Libs aren't going to work hard for your vote.  The GOP will.   

But if you don't object to their platform, and are withholding your vote out of some sense of aggrieved 'tribal' abandonment, I just don't grasp how that is in your best interest. Nor is it the same as the Democratic party "not wanting your vote". What a strange idea.

I would actually agree with you and some other posters that the Dems rely far too heavily on identity politics as an electoral strategy. It's IMO stupid to excessively play identity politics during election season for the very reason that humans are tribal and are triggered to be MORE tribal by highlighting differences among them, which is counterproductive when trying build a bigger tent.  However, I'm a mature, well informed voter who doesn't need to be constantly name checked by politicians in order to figure out what is in my best interest. The fact that the Dems aren't constantly telling me what a special snowflake I am doesn't put me off at all.  I vote Dem (usually) because (usually) their goals and general governing policies match mine most closely.  I don't give a shit whether they name-check straight, white, middle-class, childfree women from small-business-owning Mid-Western families in all their stupid election speeches.

My husband is from a poor-childhood, farm-country raised, non-union-family background and pulled himself up to the upper middle class by his bootstraps.   He's straight, white, a military/border patrol veteran, etc, which I guess is the demographic you are arguing the Dems don't want the vote of.  But he could not fathom EVER withholding his vote from the party with the governing platform with which he most agrees (Dems) just because they aren't constantly verbally courting his vote. 

Both of us having plenty of complaints about the Dems policies and governing strategy, but that is a different issue having little to nothing to do with their electoral use of identity politics. 


Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Jrr85 on December 09, 2017, 09:45:03 AM
Provides links of literally 50+ examples of how women are worse off under Trump.

"Well, look man, these policies aren't TARGETING WOMEN SPECIFICALLY."

Like, how am I supposed to have an honest debate here? Of course Trump isn't going to sign into law a bill that says women can only earn $20/hour. It's not going to be explicit. But there's at least 100 examples (probably more for those with more time to Google) of women being worse off, losing rights, etc.  Just because none are an explicit target doesn't mean the whole picture isn't worth viewing.

Honestly, how am I supposed to have this discussion?  Every point gets explained away because it's not explicit.

Obligatory disclaimer: I dislike both parties. I did not vote the presidential ticket at all because I also disliked the third party options. If I was in a swing state, I would have voted HRC, despite not supporting many parts of the DNC platform, because I don't think a corrupt (as proven in multiple courts of law), middling to bad businessman and sexual predator reality TV star with no relevant experience whatsoever is someone who makes sense to vote in as POTUS. Sadly, I was not surprised when many millions of Americans disagreed.

Anyway, I said in a post some time back that a Trump presidency would be a true stress test of the bounds of cognitive dissonance. This thread alone seems to prove they are just as vast as I surmised. Sol has it right. Trump can do no wrong. People who still support him now cannot allow themselves to feel any differently (or if they admit wrongdoing it has to be explained away by one tu quoque fallacy after another).  It's sad that the America I love has been reduced to this, but I still believe that the arc of the moral universe bends towards justice. May I live long enough to see us finally get there...

PS - smug liberal elitism is absolutely a thing. I live in Silicon Valley, the capital of such behavior. But people on this board complaining about it shouldn't use that as an excuse for their voting patterns if they also want to claim objectivity in their decision-making.

Im not sure you understand tu quoque fallacy. It's not a fallacy to compare and contrast individuals' flaws when you are picking between two(or more) terrible people.  Also, the tu quoque fallacy is the only argument the vast majority of anti trump people use. There's plenty to criticize for trump's actual policies and actions in office, but it's too emotionally satisfying to most  anti trumpers to just harp on the fact that he is an orange headed conartist who is an idiot savant when it comes to marketing.  So they just keep ranting like irate monkeys, ignoring the fact that the alternative to trump was Hillary freaking Clinton, so arguments from people who voted for Hillary Clinton about how terrible trump is just aren't going to be persuasive.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: boogabooga on December 09, 2017, 10:26:26 AM
As someone who voted for Trump in the recent election, I thought this post had great potential. I read a few sincere responses by cliffhanger & FINate on the 1st page, and then the messages just went downhill quickly. Its honestly disappointing that people just can't keep it together, even on a forum on the internet which is sad. If the topic of politics ever comes up in person, chances are that the people are liberal given that I live in Chicago. I approach these conversations with the goal of understanding their perspective, learning about a new topic, and finding commonalities. Most of the time, our viewpoints are actually more similar than different. The only times these conversations become annoying is if there is a know-it-all from either side of the aisle present who feels the need to talk over everyone to 'educate' them, regurgitate talking points and try change people's opinions. Anyway, to answer a few of the OPs questions:

- I didn't vote "republican." I don't consider myself a member of either party. I just voted for a candidate who had some ideas I agreed with and others that I don't.

- I work as a CPA and am okay with the tax plan although I think it could be simplified further.

- Trump/Russia - In my viewpoint, the USA has influenced more elections abroad than any other country. So I'm not exactly surprised that another country tried to influence ours. Any news that have come from this have not changed my viewpoints one way or another.

- lack of decorum - This is a difficult one to answer since I don't know Trump in person. I do know that he knows how to get under the skin of his opponents and label them with words or phrases that stick, and uses unconventional techniques in doing so.

- women's rights - I think women are going to come out more powerful during Trump's term. I'm glad that Hollywood is finally cleaning house of some of the men who took advantage of their power and I hope they continue to do so.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: BlueMR2 on December 09, 2017, 11:20:05 AM
I did spend 3 years in Ohio while Kasich was governor. I have never had anyone admit a Trump primary vote to me who wasn't also an Ohio resident under him.

I don't have a list of my Republican friends primary votes...  However, there's a couple common themes:
- They still love Trump despite everything
- The only ones that admitted any kind of positive feeling towards Kasich were not ones from Ohio.

To add my own opinion, while Kasich is doing a reasonable job in office, I see him as the worst case scenario career politician.  I see no evidence that he cares at all about doing the right thing.  Everything he does appears to be carefully staged to gain power no matter who it hurts.  So far the results have been acceptable, but I don't know that it would continue.  I can trust Trump to be Trump.  I can't trust Kasich at all, I'm not sure there's a real person in there.

Note, I did not vote for either at any time...
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: radram on December 09, 2017, 04:56:40 PM
As someone who voted for Trump in the recent election, I thought this post had great potential.

The responses answering the OP's original question are not surprising at all to me, as I mentioned upthread.

What IS surprising is the NUMBER of responses, given that so far the actual number of Trump voters that said they do regret doing so is a resounding ZERO. Why wasn't this post met with zero reply's, except for maybe the few that did admit some of the things on the list they were not all that happy about, but it would not change their vote?

Given there are so few Trump voters that want to change their mind, I found boogabooga's reply very helpful. Voted Trump. Gave no reasons to regret his decision so far and listed several reasons his/her vote was the right one.




Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 09, 2017, 05:25:06 PM
What IS surprising is the NUMBER of responses, given that so far the actual number of Trump voters that said they do regret doing so is a resounding ZERO.

I don't find it surprising it all.

Trump effectively alienated all but the most die-hard republicans.  Moderates fled.  There is approximately 30% of the country that lives and breathes Fox News and Breitbart, and they will continue to vote for Trump long after he's ineligible to run for office anymore.

As we've previously discussed, Trump failed to grow the tent in the 2016 election at all.  He got the same number of votes that Romney and McCain both got, yet he won when they lost because the democratic voter turnout was so heavily suppressed (apparently by Russian conspiracy theories spread on social media?).  Trump's great victory was not in uniting the electorate, it was in holding on to evangelicals (and also white supremacists, apparently) while effectively casting aspersions about his opponent.  Basically, Hillary lost that election more than Trump won it.

And in that context, the die-hard minority that still voted for him should probably be expected to respond with "America, Fuck Yea" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1mlCPMYtPk) when asked if they regret their vote.  They will never regret their vote!  Some of them are wishing he would be even more bigoted and destructive to American ideals than he has been so far. 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: libertarian4321 on December 10, 2017, 07:16:11 AM
The last time I voted Republican for President was in 1992, and yes, I regretted it.

I should have voted Libertarian.  Or maybe for Ross Perot.

I've voted Libertarian every time since, except for 2008, when I cast a "screw you, John McCain" spite vote for Obama.  Yeah, I know, that wasn't a great move, but the Libertarian candidate that year was a warmonger like McCain (and, as it turns out, Obama), so I didn't want to vote for him.

I couldn't vote for an awful candidate like Trump.  Or Hillary. 

It still seems hard to believe that both major parties managed to pick absolutely horrific candidates in the same year.  The two worst major party candidates in the past 100+ years, and they both run in the same year?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: former player on December 10, 2017, 11:57:24 AM

The act was written at the behest of supporters of Israel in the U.S. who felt it was time, after decades, to recognize the accurate capital of an ally. 
I am beginning to think that it is time, after decades of Israel exercising the prerogatives of statehood over the West Bank and Gaza - enforcing (military) law, controlling the borders for people and goods, and determining land ownership rights - to recognise the accuracy of the single State solution.  One without an apartheid regime, obviously.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: wenchsenior on December 10, 2017, 12:04:09 PM
As someone who voted for Trump in the recent election, I thought this post had great potential.

The responses answering the OP's original question are not surprising at all to me, as I mentioned upthread.

What IS surprising is the NUMBER of responses, given that so far the actual number of Trump voters that said they do regret doing so is a resounding ZERO. Why wasn't this post met with zero reply's, except for maybe the few that did admit some of the things on the list they were not all that happy about, but it would not change their vote?

Given there are so few Trump voters that want to change their mind, I found boogabooga's reply very helpful. Voted Trump. Gave no reasons to regret his decision so far and listed several reasons his/her vote was the right one.

Well, I did mention my father.  He would fit the OP's criteria.  Trump supporter and voter.  Now wants to see Trump impeached.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: radram on December 10, 2017, 05:41:05 PM
Well, I did mention my father.  He would fit the OP's criteria.  Trump supporter and voter.  Now wants to see Trump impeached.
Point well taken. There have been a couple people who knew somebody, but still not one poster on this forum who want their vote back.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: partgypsy on December 10, 2017, 06:35:33 PM
Wading into the disclaimer it has not been proven Trump is racist/bigoted/discrimminatory, apparently the black reporter and the gay reporter from the WH press corps were not invited to the White House Christmas party, apparently singled out.  https://www.snopes.com/2017/12/10/black-lgbt-reporters-wh-christmas-party/

And while it is unproven that minority children were not invited to the White House Easter egg roll, it is true that the White House said that "tickets were given to all the schools in the area" but no tickets were given to the three districts closest to the White house (D.C., Arlington and Alexandria). These are racially diverse districts previously invited to WH Easter egg hunts.
https://www.snopes.com/white-easter-egg-roll/

Curious. Any Trump supporters here who are not white and male?

Also curious. Are any Trump supporter concerned with the fact that Trump lies all the time? And I'm not talking about political shading type lies. Doesn't that make him at the very least, untrustworthy? Unfit? Or that his Twitter feed is dominated by bots, a large number of those being Russian bots?

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/donald-trump-twitter-army-228923

I guess I have never gotten a coherent answer why Trump supporters are unconcerned, really, not even that curious why Russia undermined Hillary and pushed Trump, of all possible candidates. Russia is a foreign country who is NOT an ally. The reason why the US has previously tried to influence elections, is to further our own agenda over that other countries interest, and/or destabilize, make that country weaker. I would think that would concern any Trump voter, that Russia believes that Trump being president furthers their agenda over ours and makes our country weaker.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: TheOldestYoungMan on December 10, 2017, 09:25:56 PM

If they really want it over, do the two state solution. Let Palestine be it's own thing. Israel should get their settlements out of there. Make Jerusalem an international city. If fighting continues after that, then I will STFU.

Every.  Single.  Time.  This has been on the table and not only did the Palestinians reject it they initiated open conflict against the Israelis.  It's literally how the conflict started.  Israel is open to the idea of the above and if you look at how they actually govern this is how it works in all but name. 


"But it matters for that one starfish..." But that's just it. Talking points aren't a rational discussion meant to inform about a topic or have a different point of view. They come from both sides and half the time they're political nonsense. They're just small quips with no information to get people who have no deeper interest in a topic to agree. Platitudes that don't really have any room for nuance or information. It's a snip to get people angry and on your side. Don't be so surprised if you're dismissed after throwing a talking point at someone who doesn't agree with you and might know a little about your topic.


*smacks head against wall* Yes, coming to the table to declare Trump's decision to move the embassy as the end of rational foreign policy and the breakdown of America as a world leader was definitely not a talking point.  There is nothing I can argue to a liberal that disagrees with their worldview that doesn't get me dismissed.  That was my whole point, thank you for proving it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement
You cannot reason with the unreasonable.  You just do the right thing and you deal with what happens.
Does this count as Godwin's Law?

Technical violation perhaps.  In the context of making concessions to foreign powers in the interest of peace, particularly foreign powers intent on wiping out the Jews, I don't think the sentiment of the Godwin's Law observation is as relevant here as you might like.  What I would like, for my own ability to come up with a cogent argument for appeasement, is an example of where it worked.  Like for instance, if the U.S. refusing to recognize Israel's capital had led to a sustained peace for Israel, the U.S., or the region in general.  Oh wait.  There isn't one.  The experiment has been tried a dozen times now all over the world and it has always led to open conflict.

It makes sense to lowkey not acknowledge Taiwan as an independent state, no need to antagonize the Chinese, and not antagonizing the Chinese has a benefit.  The residents of the region are still trying to convince each other that unification with China is good or that, alternatively, independence is good.  Peacefully.  When the unification talks break down, neighbors don't go home and plot to exterminate each other.  They don't sponsor state terrorism against us or our allies.  It makes sense not to antagonize the North Koreans, they're chillin' brutalizing their own people in a horrific regime of death, agony, and hopelessness, but I understand the willingness to say "not my monkey, not my circus."

In the context of U.S. state department official diplomatic actions, there is no reason not to recognize Jerusalem, failing to recognize it bought us nothing.  It made no difference.  It was a hollow gesture, without meaning.  Our leadership on the issue is likely why lots of other nations did the same, it is not that we did it made us leaders, us being leaders is why everyone else did it.

Recruiting tool for Al Qaeda?  Really?  We destroyed two nations, leading to apocalyptic conditions that killed millions, devastation so bad that the word decimate definitionally is inadequate, and sat by and watched as the whole region descended into chaos.  It's been open recruitment for awhile.  How about that's a bullshit reason not to do the right thing.

You've had your opportunity to explain why not recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is a terrible idea, and that's all you've come up with.  People who already hate us will still hate us, Palestinians who refuse to negotiate (we don't even know what they want because they won't propose anything, choosing instead to reject any proposal as offensive, leave the table, and start killing Israelis in open, armed, conflict), and worries over the safety of our personnel, which is the only one I'd accept, if we didn't already have a diplomatic mission in Jerusalem that'll be a shit-sight more safe with a full embassy contingent on hand for emergencies.  Oh, and also, you can't explain it because I clearly should just know, because it's that obvious.

For your own edification, go look at what places in the world the state department has lost the most people, where our embassies have been taken out by hostile forces.  Since 1979 there have been 24 attacks that I know of conducted by/carried out by the type of person likely to be offended by us moving our embassy to Jerusalem.  22 of those since Congress passed the act to move the embassy, the first since that passage (which probably should have stirred up some trouble all on its own if it was going to, yes?) the first was 1998.  The only place in that part of the world where our personnel have been safe is Israel, because it's the only place in that part of the world where the authorities respect the value of a non-muslim life.

The national security argument is a bullshit one.  It was fine in 1995, but it clearly hasn't made a damn bit of difference, except to be a slap in the face to the only ally over there who isn't secretly hoping we fail as a nation/outright calling for our extermination in a rain of fire and death.

And what drives me crazy, what drives me absolutely batshit crazy, is that ignorant liberals with no concept of the context and depth and history of the struggle in the middle east, who think the beauty pageant answer of "peace in the middle east" is just that, who see the nation of Israel as powerful and the Palestinians as weak and therefore Israel must have done something wrong, who have probably hundreds of things they could focus on with what Trump is doing wrong, instead choose to say that not only is he out of his depth on foreign policy, but that this somehow marks the end of...

Of course he's an idiot.  Of course he did this, and I shit you not I wouldn't be surprised at all if he did this: because six months ago they asked him to sign the waiver, he recognized it coming across his desk again, and said, "what do I have to do to not sign this waiver every 6 months, I came here to golf not sign shit twice a year", and so they're moving the fucking embassy.

That's what the criticism should be about.  He clearly has no fucking clue what he's doing.  Doesn't make moving the embassy a bad idea though.  I say we recognize Israel as the leader of the Arab League the next time jihadi's blow shit up.  Just keep upgrading our offensive rhetoric.  You kill a bunch of comics?  We put an image of your prophet giving Jesus a handy on our currency.  You decapitate an american journalist, we air drop translations of the quran that your people can actually read all over the countryside.  You go on TV and call for the extermination of the West, we announce we found your prophet's body and he had an inter-cranial infection of parasites, entire religion is actually a hallucination, also, was a hermaphrodite, technically female in terms of chromosomes.  You'll note I say your prophet, I actually didn't use the name, because I didn't want some fucked-up crazy person to murder people because I posted something offensive on the internet.

Passive Aggressive is a foreign policy strategy I can get behind.  It's cheap and effective.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: PKFFW on December 11, 2017, 03:50:40 AM
It's literally how the conflict started.
Actually the conflict started with the West collectively decided to salve its conscience after WW2 by taking a bit of land in the middle east that had been occupied for centuries by another society and give it to the Jewish people.

You can argue till the cows come home that it was either the right or wrong thing to do and whether or not anything can be done about that monumentally stupid and self serving conquest now but there wasn't a conflict between the Palestinians and Jews before that.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: accolay on December 11, 2017, 04:11:55 AM
If they really want it over, do the two state solution. Let Palestine be it's own thing. Israel should get their settlements out of there. Make Jerusalem an international city. If fighting continues after that, then I will STFU.
Every.  Single.  Time.  This has been on the table and not only did the Palestinians reject it they initiated open conflict against the Israelis.  It's literally how the conflict started.  Israel is open to the idea of the above and if you look at how they actually govern this is how it works in all but name.

Really?  It's tit for tat. Chicken or egg. Don't give me some bullshit that Israel's all skittles and beer while the Arabs did everything. You can't just plant some people in a place that's already occupied and expect everyone to like it. What could go wrong?

And what drives me crazy, what drives me absolutely batshit crazy, is that ignorant liberals with no concept of the context and depth and history of the struggle in the middle east, who think the beauty pageant answer of "peace in the middle east" is just that, who see the nation of Israel as powerful and the Palestinians as weak and therefore Israel must have done something wrong, who have probably hundreds of things they could focus on with what Trump is doing wrong, instead choose to say that not only is he out of his depth on foreign policy, but that this somehow marks the end of...

Barf. Nobody said that. I think that if the US stopped supporting Israel and say we moved our embassy out of there altogether, Israel wouldn't exist. But that's just this one ignorant liberal's opinion.

That's what the criticism should be about.  He clearly has no fucking clue what he's doing.
Passive Aggressive is a foreign policy strategy I can get behind.  It's cheap and effective.

I thought that was what all of theseliberals were talking about for the last two years. So you say he's an idiot, complete fucking moron even, but somehow his foreign policy is something you can get behind. You sir, are an enigma.

I stand by my prediction about this embassy move. I read somewhere that it will take two years to either plan out or build. We'll see what happens with Mueller so maybe by then somebody with some common sense will be in charge.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: accolay on December 11, 2017, 04:21:14 AM
It's literally how the conflict started.
Actually the conflict started with the West collectively decided to salve its conscience after WW2 by taking a bit of land in the middle east that had been occupied for centuries by another society and give it to the Jewish people.

You can argue till the cows come home that it was either the right or wrong thing to do and whether or not anything can be done about that monumentally stupid and self serving conquest now but there wasn't a conflict between the Palestinians and Jews before that.

Well... actually there was some conflict starting in like the 1880s apparently. Those were the easy days.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Big Boots Buddha on December 11, 2017, 05:57:18 AM
This is hilarious. If Hillary was our president she would be making the rounds of the Middle East and whoever else would "celebrate" or whatever else she calls giving her money. After the Clinton Foundation had several tens of billions of dollars and she had completely sold out the USA, we would all be happy that a woman finally was president? Give me a break.

I wish I could make the same disparaging remarks about our last president, maybe call him horrible names and refer to his skin color, but then I would be racist. Great how that works for the left.

Get ready for 3 more years of winning soy-cucks. And have fun in California with your taxes!!!


[MOD NOTE:  I have no idea what a "soy-cuck" is, but we're really done with Pick-up Artist lingo around here.]
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: MasterStache on December 11, 2017, 06:05:52 AM
This is hilarious. If Hillary was our president she would be making the rounds of the Middle East and whoever else would "celebrate" or whatever else she calls giving her money. After the Clinton Foundation had several tens of billions of dollars and she had completely sold out the USA, we would all be happy that a woman finally was president? Give me a break.

I wish I could make the same disparaging remarks about our last president, maybe call him horrible names and refer to his skin color, but then I would be racist. Great how that works for the left.

Get ready for 3 more years of winning soy-cucks. And have fun in California with your taxes!!!

So basically your answer is "what about Clinton...." Pretty terrible troll job.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: farfromfire on December 11, 2017, 07:06:57 AM
It's literally how the conflict started.
Actually the conflict started with the West collectively decided to salve its conscience after WW2 by taking a bit of land in the middle east that had been occupied for centuries by another society and give it to the Jewish people.

You can argue till the cows come home that it was either the right or wrong thing to do and whether or not anything can be done about that monumentally stupid and self serving conquest now but there wasn't a conflict between the Palestinians and Jews before that.
Like much in this thread, this is factually incorrect. Unfortunately I do not have the time to educate you beyond this post, so I ask respectfully that you try to educate yourself before offering your opinion as fact.

The Balfour declaration was before WWII. So was the San Remo conference, so were all the times Arabs in the area decided it was a good time to kill Jews (1929, etc.) The reason people think the conflict is newer is because in the 60s some Arabs decided to start calling themselves Palestinians in hope of create an identity that they previously shunned (under British rule, almost only Jews referred to themselves as citizens of Palestine, see for example the previous name of the Jerusalem post; Arabs believed the land belonged to one of the Arab countries in the area, or a combination thereof).

In fact, the whole "Israel is a result of guilty conscience" argument falls flat on its face because the Brits were most antagonistic towards Jewish emigration to Israel before, during, and after the Holocaust. The Holocaust might have made it easier for foreign powers to understand why Jews need their own homeland, but it did not create Israel, nor Zionism's idea of a modern state of Israel.

Your comment also blatantly ignores that most of the coastal plains were purchased by Jews by the time the WW2 was over, not to mention all the land purchased since then - land was not taken and given by Western powers.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: A Definite Beta Guy on December 11, 2017, 08:49:46 AM
I am new to this thread, but I would love to hear from Trump *Primary* voters as well. I'm assuming everyone here so far was merely comparing him to Sec. Clinton. But I would really like to hear from people who were comparing him to guys like John Kasich.

Why would you vote for Kasich? He obviously had no chance of winning. He was running 4th in a 3 man race.

By Super Tuesday, your options were Trump or Cruz. Rubio was probably not going to win Florida, meaning he wasn't going to win anywhere else.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: partgypsy on December 11, 2017, 09:22:57 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement
You cannot reason with the unreasonable.  You just do the right thing and you deal with what happens.
Does this count as Godwin's Law?

Technical violation perhaps.  In the context of making concessions to foreign powers in the interest of peace, particularly foreign powers intent on wiping out the Jews, I don't think the sentiment of the Godwin's Law observation is as relevant here as you might like.  What I would like, for my own ability to come up with a cogent argument for appeasement, is an example of where it worked.  Like for instance, if the U.S. refusing to recognize Israel's capital had led to a sustained peace for Israel, the U.S., or the region in general.  Oh wait.  There isn't one.  The experiment has been tried a dozen times now all over the world and it has always led to open conflict.

It makes sense to lowkey not acknowledge Taiwan as an independent state, no need to antagonize the Chinese, and not antagonizing the Chinese has a benefit.  The residents of the region are still trying to convince each other that unification with China is good or that, alternatively, independence is good.  Peacefully.  When the unification talks break down, neighbors don't go home and plot to exterminate each other.  They don't sponsor state terrorism against us or our allies.  It makes sense not to antagonize the North Koreans, they're chillin' brutalizing their own people in a horrific regime of death, agony, and hopelessness, but I understand the willingness to say "not my monkey, not my circus."

In the context of U.S. state department official diplomatic actions, there is no reason not to recognize Jerusalem, failing to recognize it bought us nothing.  It made no difference.  It was a hollow gesture, without meaning.  Our leadership on the issue is likely why lots of other nations did the same, it is not that we did it made us leaders, us being leaders is why everyone else did it.

Recruiting tool for Al Qaeda?  Really?  We destroyed two nations, leading to apocalyptic conditions that killed millions, devastation so bad that the word decimate definitionally is inadequate, and sat by and watched as the whole region descended into chaos.  It's been open recruitment for awhile.  How about that's a bullshit reason not to do the right thing.

You've had your opportunity to explain why not recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is a terrible idea, and that's all you've come up with.  People who already hate us will still hate us, Palestinians who refuse to negotiate (we don't even know what they want because they won't propose anything, choosing instead to reject any proposal as offensive, leave the table, and start killing Israelis in open, armed, conflict), and worries over the safety of our personnel, which is the only one I'd accept, if we didn't already have a diplomatic mission in Jerusalem that'll be a shit-sight more safe with a full embassy contingent on hand for emergencies.  Oh, and also, you can't explain it because I clearly should just know, because it's that obvious.

For your own edification, go look at what places in the world the state department has lost the most people, where our embassies have been taken out by hostile forces.  Since 1979 there have been 24 attacks that I know of conducted by/carried out by the type of person likely to be offended by us moving our embassy to Jerusalem.  22 of those since Congress passed the act to move the embassy, the first since that passage (which probably should have stirred up some trouble all on its own if it was going to, yes?) the first was 1998.  The only place in that part of the world where our personnel have been safe is Israel, because it's the only place in that part of the world where the authorities respect the value of a non-muslim life.

The national security argument is a bullshit one.  It was fine in 1995, but it clearly hasn't made a damn bit of difference, except to be a slap in the face to the only ally over there who isn't secretly hoping we fail as a nation/outright calling for our extermination in a rain of fire and death.

And what drives me crazy, what drives me absolutely batshit crazy, is that ignorant liberals with no concept of the context and depth and history of the struggle in the middle east, who think the beauty pageant answer of "peace in the middle east" is just that, who see the nation of Israel as powerful and the Palestinians as weak and therefore Israel must have done something wrong, who have probably hundreds of things they could focus on with what Trump is doing wrong, instead choose to say that not only is he out of his depth on foreign policy, but that this somehow marks the end of...

Of course he's an idiot.  Of course he did this, and I shit you not I wouldn't be surprised at all if he did this: because six months ago they asked him to sign the waiver, he recognized it coming across his desk again, and said, "what do I have to do to not sign this waiver every 6 months, I came here to golf not sign shit twice a year", and so they're moving the fucking embassy.

That's what the criticism should be about.  He clearly has no fucking clue what he's doing.  Doesn't make moving the embassy a bad idea though.  I say we recognize Israel as the leader of the Arab League the next time jihadi's blow shit up.  Just keep upgrading our offensive rhetoric.  You kill a bunch of comics?  We put an image of your prophet giving Jesus a handy on our currency.  You decapitate an american journalist, we air drop translations of the quran that your people can actually read all over the countryside.  You go on TV and call for the extermination of the West, we announce we found your prophet's body and he had an inter-cranial infection of parasites, entire religion is actually a hallucination, also, was a hermaphrodite, technically female in terms of chromosomes.  You'll note I say your prophet, I actually didn't use the name, because I didn't want some fucked-up crazy person to murder people because I posted something offensive on the internet.

Passive Aggressive is a foreign policy strategy I can get behind.  It's cheap and effective.

So basically, you are saying that you don't believe in the entire concept of international relations or diplomacy. OOKay. I'm sure you know so much more about this than diplomats, military leaders, and power brokers dealing with people in these countries all these decades. If you want to create an us vs them situation, sure that's easy to do. If you want to have these other countries to buy into controlling and guiding their own people away from violent acts, you have given them no, actually negative motivation to do so. I'm not sure what that accomplishes, and it sure seems like you have little to no regard for innocents who are casualties on either side.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: TheOldestYoungMan on December 11, 2017, 09:28:25 AM
It's literally how the conflict started.
Actually the conflict started with the West collectively decided to salve its conscience after WW2 by taking a bit of land in the middle east that had been occupied for centuries by another society and give it to the Jewish people.

You can argue till the cows come home that it was either the right or wrong thing to do and whether or not anything can be done about that monumentally stupid and self serving conquest now but there wasn't a conflict between the Palestinians and Jews before that.
Like much in this thread, this is factually incorrect. Unfortunately I do not have the time to educate you beyond this post, so I ask respectfully that you try to educate yourself before offering your opinion as fact.

The Balfour declaration was before WWII. So was the San Remo conference, so were all the times Arabs in the area decided it was a good time to kill Jews (1929, etc.) The reason people think the conflict is newer is because in the 60s some Arabs decided to start calling themselves Palestinians in hope of create an identity that they previously shunned (under British rule, almost only Jews referred to themselves as citizens of Palestine, see for example the previous name of the Jerusalem post; Arabs believed the land belonged to one of the Arab countries in the area, or a combination thereof).

In fact, the whole "Israel is a result of guilty conscience" argument falls flat on its face because the Brits were most antagonistic towards Jewish emigration to Israel before, during, and after the Holocaust. The Holocaust might have made it easier for foreign powers to understand why Jews need their own homeland, but it did not create Israel, nor Zionism's idea of a modern state of Israel.

Your comment also blatantly ignores that most of the coastal plains were purchased by Jews by the time the WW2 was over, not to mention all the land purchased since then - land was not taken and given by Western powers.

Thank you!  We all have a responsibility to go look into the history ourselves, not just believe whatever narrative of convenience is being put forward by agendas with a vested interest.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 11, 2017, 10:49:38 AM
Like much in this thread, this is factually incorrect. Unfortunately I do not have the time to educate you beyond this post, so I ask respectfully that you try to educate yourself before offering your opinion as fact.

The Balfour declaration was before WWII. So was the San Remo conference, so were all the times Arabs in the area decided it was a good time to kill Jews (1929, etc.) The reason people think the conflict is newer is because in the 60s some Arabs decided to start calling themselves Palestinians in hope of create an identity that they previously shunned (under British rule, almost only Jews referred to themselves as citizens of Palestine, see for example the previous name of the Jerusalem post; Arabs believed the land belonged to one of the Arab countries in the area, or a combination thereof).

In fact, the whole "Israel is a result of guilty conscience" argument falls flat on its face because the Brits were most antagonistic towards Jewish emigration to Israel before, during, and after the Holocaust. The Holocaust might have made it easier for foreign powers to understand why Jews need their own homeland, but it did not create Israel, nor Zionism's idea of a modern state of Israel.

Your comment also blatantly ignores that most of the coastal plains were purchased by Jews by the time the WW2 was over, not to mention all the land purchased since then - land was not taken and given by Western powers.

I heard almost this exact same argument from a friend of mine.  He loves to explain, to anyone who will listen, how the history of the Jews is more complicated than most people realize.  He also loves to explain how the Holocaust was greatly exaggerated and Hitler was a great leader in a terrible time, one who unified a struggling and oppressed people in defense of their besieged culture.  His interpretation of "complicated history" is primarily an effort to undermine the "good vs evil" narrative that most people hold about WWII, as a way of apologizing for Naziism.  Unsurprisingly, he's a huge Trump supporter.

So while I appreciate your efforts to inject a little history into this discussion, I think you need to be careful about how the thematic thrust of your argument will be perceived, and about what company you keep in advancing those arguments.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: A Definite Beta Guy on December 11, 2017, 12:56:59 PM
History is pretty complicated, but most eras in history would've been appalled by the Holocaust, and I don't think anyone past early antiquity, not even the Mongols, would've drawn up plans to kill or displace 100+ million Slavs.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: GuitarStv on December 11, 2017, 01:14:34 PM
History is pretty complicated, but most eras in history would've been appalled by the Holocaust, and I don't think anyone past early antiquity, not even the Mongols, would've drawn up plans to kill or displace 100+ million Slavs.

I suspect that the will was there in the past.  People have always done pretty horrific stuff to one another.  WWII was a special coming together of will, large minority population, and technological advances that allowed it to take place the way it did.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: talltexan on December 11, 2017, 01:51:50 PM
I am new to this thread, but I would love to hear from Trump *Primary* voters as well. I'm assuming everyone here so far was merely comparing him to Sec. Clinton. But I would really like to hear from people who were comparing him to guys like John Kasich.

Why would you vote for Kasich? He obviously had no chance of winning. He was running 4th in a 3 man race.

By Super Tuesday, your options were Trump or Cruz. Rubio was probably not going to win Florida, meaning he wasn't going to win anywhere else.

This is a legitimate question, and I feel I have to answer for my Kasich vote (in the GOP primary). I had a lot of discussions with other conservative friends, and I concluded that--in the primary--it was the duty of a primary voter to indicate which available candidate was the best choice for the office. No strategy, no assuming there'd be a certain matchup in the general election, just ranking the (GOP) choices and indicating the best one.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: fluffmuffin on December 11, 2017, 02:12:06 PM
I am new to this thread, but I would love to hear from Trump *Primary* voters as well. I'm assuming everyone here so far was merely comparing him to Sec. Clinton. But I would really like to hear from people who were comparing him to guys like John Kasich.

If it's helpful, both of my Trump-voting relatives voted for him in the primary, for the same reasons that they voted for him in the general election (albeit with less #Killary). One was maybe more into the fact that he would run America more "like a business," relative to the establishment candidates. Both wanted someone who would shake things up and MAGA. One has been a steady, party-line Republican voter; one skews libertarian and often votes third-party in the general election.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: PKFFW on December 11, 2017, 02:24:24 PM
Like much in this thread, this is factually incorrect. Unfortunately I do not have the time to educate you beyond this post, so I ask respectfully that you try to educate yourself before offering your opinion as fact.

The Balfour declaration was before WWII. So was the San Remo conference, so were all the times Arabs in the area decided it was a good time to kill Jews (1929, etc.) The reason people think the conflict is newer is because in the 60s some Arabs decided to start calling themselves Palestinians in hope of create an identity that they previously shunned (under British rule, almost only Jews referred to themselves as citizens of Palestine, see for example the previous name of the Jerusalem post; Arabs believed the land belonged to one of the Arab countries in the area, or a combination thereof).
Oh, I thought we were talking about a conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.  Since there was no Israel for at least a few centuries, I also figured we were talking about the modern state of Israel.  It seemed to me that this was the case because the comment was made by TheOldestYoungMan that the rejection of the two-state solution by the Palestinians was "literally how the conflict started."  You know, that solution that was only formulated and proposed after the formation of the modern state of Israel and in response to the modern conflict between the Palestinians and the state of Israel.

Now I guess he must have been talking about that other two state solution that was talked about before the modern state of Israel was even formed.

I do admit though, that Arabs and Jewish people have been at each others throats for centuries, so yes you are correct.  I'd argue it's not quite as clear cut how that animosity and conflict began as you and TheOldestYoungMan may like to believe and that laying the entirety of the blame at the feet of the Arab peoples is probably a bit simplistic no matter how comforting it may be.
Quote from: farfromfire
In fact, the whole "Israel is a result of guilty conscience" argument falls flat on its face because the Brits were most antagonistic towards Jewish emigration to Israel before, during, and after the Holocaust. The Holocaust might have made it easier for foreign powers to understand why Jews need their own homeland, but it did not create Israel, nor Zionism's idea of a modern state of Israel.
No western nation of any significance was supportive of creating a Jewish homeland prior to the Holocaust.  Many were after the Holocaust.  I know correlation does not equal causation but it's a heck of a correlation.
Quote from: farfromfire
Your comment also blatantly ignores that most of the coastal plains were purchased by Jews by the time the WW2 was over, not to mention all the land purchased since then - land was not taken and given by Western powers.
Purchasing land within a geographical area currently occupied does mean you now have your own nation state.  I own my own house and land but I don't get to be king of my own nation because of that.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: TheOldestYoungMan on December 11, 2017, 02:27:02 PM

So basically, you are saying that you don't believe in the entire concept of international relations or diplomacy. OOKay. I'm sure you know so much more about this than diplomats, military leaders, and power brokers dealing with people in these countries all these decades. If you want to create an us vs them situation, sure that's easy to do. If you want to have these other countries to buy into controlling and guiding their own people away from violent acts, you have given them no, actually negative motivation to do so. I'm not sure what that accomplishes, and it sure seems like you have little to no regard for innocents who are casualties on either side.

That's not what I'm saying.  What I'm saying is that there is a huge difference between complying with a reasonable request of someone, or even with their demand, if you get something for it, and continuing to do so long after it has been demonstrated that you get nothing for it.  Even if all you get is an intangible such as the oft-cited "goodwill" of other nations.  And the precedent of using embassy locations as part of ongoing dialogues is well established by this point, as I mentioned, we do it elsewhere and it works, there isn't open violence, and the parties at least pretend to talk, even if no progress is ever made.

But when the other side of the negotiating table puts a gun to your head, and demands you do something or they'll pull the trigger, and you go ahead and do it, because you don't want them to pull the trigger...and then they pull the trigger anyway, at what point does the reasonable man stop believing that giving in to their demands will yield positive results?

The other side of the table is not negotiating in good faith.  It is not OK that the announcement of the U.S. moving an embassy would cause violence in the middle east.  It is also not our fault or our problem.  The people who choose violence are at fault.  We don't need to give them motivation to not choose violence, but I reject your premise that we haven't.  Given every opportunity to pursue solutions through peaceful means, talking, diplomacy, negotiations, they have instead chose violence.  Regardless of where our embassy is.

The objection here is rooted in partisan politics, Trump hatred, and a resistance to a perceived status quo that never existed.  The idea that our doing this caused something over there to happen...if it hadn't been this it would have been something else.  So today they got to blow some people up because we announced we were moving the embassy, such a shame, they would have had to blow people up because it was Monday otherwise.

It's a false correlation.  Do not believe the narrative that some innocuous action of the west, some mundane feature of living our lives as we best see fit, is sufficient justification for horrific violence.  That is patently absurd.  Only in the context of a worldview that sees the west as evil incarnate is that OK.

The seductiveness of a viable solution involving Jerusalem, a united, independent, Jerusalem as an international city is potent.  But it is incompatible with fundamental tenants of Islamic ideology, and it is incompatible with the pathology of the peoples there who refuse to value their neighbors as human because of their religion.  The idea is born of fiction, laid on a foundation of selective history, where the strong are always wrong and Bad Things Only Happen to Bad People.

As to me knowing more than all these experts, of course I don't know more than them, but I can look at the state of the Middle East right now and see the most stable part of it is Israel, probably Saudi Arabia too.  Normalized relations with us is apparently good for you.  Kuwait seems like a pretty decent place to live, having decided to not try and kill us and just sell us oil.  It isn't that not choosing violence means we'll be nice to you and stop our negative mojo and you'll be a successful stable country, it's that if you're choosing violence everything is unstable and eventually turns to shit.

I can look at world leaders, who specifically cite not wanting to incite terrorist violence, and call them cowards and idiots besides.  The terrorist violence has never needed a reason, and if they did, that ship sailed long ago.  The sooner we stop trying to reason with people who left the negotiating table long ago, the better off we'll all be.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: GuitarStv on December 11, 2017, 03:17:52 PM
Like much in this thread, this is factually incorrect. Unfortunately I do not have the time to educate you beyond this post, so I ask respectfully that you try to educate yourself before offering your opinion as fact.

The Balfour declaration was before WWII.

I've taken your advice and educated myself.  It has made your response a bit puzzling.

The text of the Balfour declaration:
"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

So . . . literally nothing was said about establishing a Jewish state that would aggressively annex it's neighbours.

So was the San Remo conference,

Text of Resolution (edited for just the relevant bits):

It was agreed –
(a) To accept the terms of the Mandates Article as given below with reference to Palestine, on the understanding that there was inserted in the procès-verbal an undertaking by the Mandatory Power that this would not involve the surrender of the rights hitherto enjoyed by the non-Jewish communities in Palestine

(b) The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory, to be selected by the said Powers. The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on the 8th [2nd] November, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

So again, there was no establishment of a Jewish state prior to WWII and European guilt.


so were all the times Arabs in the area decided it was a good time to kill Jews (1929, etc.)

I'm obviously not going to condone murdering people, which has happened on both sides in the Jewish-Arab conflicts over the years.

You're implying with your statement that this occurred without any cause though.  A couple days before, hundreds of Jewish nationalists marched to the western wall in Jerusalam shouting slogans like "The Wall Is Ours" and raising the Jewish flag.  There were reports of Jewish youth attacking Arabs, cursing Mohammed, and rumours that they were planning to attack the al-Aqsa Mosque.


Your comment also blatantly ignores that most of the coastal plains were purchased by Jews by the time the WW2 was over, not to mention all the land purchased since then - land was not taken and given by Western powers.

As an American, would you be OK with a few Mexican people who were in the country legally buying some coastal property and then illegally inviting a few hundred thousand of their countrymen to come stay with them?  Then continuing to invite more until they start to forcibly take land from the Americans who live there?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: TheOldestYoungMan on December 11, 2017, 03:29:34 PM

Oh, I thought we were talking about a conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.  Since there was no Israel for at least a few centuries, I also figured we were talking about the modern state of Israel.  It seemed to me that this was the case because the comment was made by TheOldestYoungMan that the rejection of the two-state solution by the Palestinians was "literally how the conflict started."  You know, that solution that was only formulated and proposed after the formation of the modern state of Israel and in response to the modern conflict between the Palestinians and the state of Israel.

Now I guess he must have been talking about that other two state solution that was talked about before the modern state of Israel was even formed.

I do admit though, that Arabs and Jewish people have been at each others throats for centuries, so yes you are correct.  I'd argue it's not quite as clear cut how that animosity and conflict began as you and TheOldestYoungMan may like to believe and that laying the entirety of the blame at the feet of the Arab peoples is probably a bit simplistic no matter how comforting it may be.

I cannot stress enough, you do not know what you are talking about.

Claim the first:  the conflict between those people calling themselves Palestinians and those calling themselves Israelis started after the Holocaust, is somehow the result of nationbuilding in the post-ww2 era.

Why this is false:  The best direct path to trace the violence has it starting due to resentment of the seeming betrayal of the arabs by the British, who instead of recognizing arab independence in the reason in return for them helping to defeat the Ottoman Empire in WW1, created Mandatory Palestine and had notions of creating a jewish homeland in the region.

Claim the second:  the two state solution was proposed after the creation of modern Israel.

Why this is false:  With some slight variation, the two state solution was the idea put forward as a compromise between the two nationalistic movements within Mandatory Palestine after the founding of the United Nations.  Given that the U.N. charter insists on the rights of people to self-determination, it doesn't really make sense to have a one state solution, was the thinking.  So a compromise was developed, where certain parts of the country would be Israel and others Palestine, and still others were to be Syria.  I think.  It was only after this proposal was presented to the U.N. and agreed to that open conflict started.  The Palestinians and their Arab allies believed they could force a better deal, that the Jews were weak and could be removed from the area through force.  They were wrong, they lost the war, the Jews soundly defeated them, and many Arabs fled.  Israel was born, after the rejection of the two-state solution.

It is important to note, that at the negotiating table after the war, the Jews were still willing to accept a two-state solution, and ceded territories outside the proposed borders of the two-state solution to Palestinian/Syrian/Arab control. Because they are reasonable people and understand that a two-state solution could work, and likely nothing else would.

Claim the third:  It is comforting to lay the blame at the feet of the Arabs, but that is too simplistic a view.

Why this is false:  The Israelis have never left the negotiating table.  It wasn't their idea to make a deal with the British in WW1.  They never asked for special consideration prior to WW1 or tried to re-create a homeland in the area.  After 1920, arabs in the area in response to British rule began harassing and oppressing jews in the area, because that's how their religion works.  Jews responded not with violence, but by seeking the right of self-determination, as is reasonable of all thinking beings.  It is only after 1936, when Arabs began violently attacking Jews, that the Jews began militarizing, for the first time, as far as I know, since antiquity.

Every solution that does not involve the Jews giving up their hard-won power, and stepping aside to turn complete control and autonomy of the entire region over to Palestinians, is met with the Palestinians leaving the table and initiating open, armed conflict.  And they don't form a military and attack the Israeli government, they just start wholesale slaughtering anyone they can get their hands on, bombing restaurants and sending mortars into residential neighborhoods.

The Palestinians started a civil war, which they then lost, and that is the history of Modern Israel.  The conflict is ongoing because the Jews will not eliminate the Palestinians.  There are only two likely resolutions to the conflict:  The Palestinians eventually overcome the IDF and kill every Jew in Israel, or the end of time arrives and we all go out with a tiny little whimper.  The last Palestinians who actually lived in the areas they were displaced from during the civil war are dying of old age, but the conflict still has no end in sight.  There will literally be generations of Arabs who think of themselves as living in exile because their supposed allies will not do the job of a friend, and tell them they've lost.  They're the guy chasing the girl who got married to someone else fifty years ago.  It stopped being healthy awhile ago, and it was never understandable.

Claim the fourth: Arabs and Jews have been at each others throats for centuries.

Why this is false:  Arabs attack Jews, and sometimes, not always but sometimes, Jews defend themselves.  It's a subtle but significant difference.  I get the sentiment behind "I wish they would just get along" but it belies a consistent failure to pay attention.  Sometimes when the kids fight its both of their fault.  This isn't one of those times.  It hasn't been for awhile.

I'm curious, do you recognize the Confederate States of America?  They fought a civil war and lost, so no.

What about Scotland?  An independent Scotland?  Sure, if they vote and that's what they want.

Now what if the vote is close, and about 45% of the people want to stay, lets call them Brits.  The vote happens, the Scots win, and the Brits go out that night and start murdering Scots.  The Scots manage to fight them off, and push them out of town, and eventually the Brits give up after years of fighting.

Are you really saying the Brits in that situation deserve anything?  And then the Scots go ahead and offer them half the country to live in, and they say no, fuck you, and start murdering scots again?

That's what this is.  It was messy, sure, it would be wouldn't it?  But when the dust clears the victim isn't necessarily the one in the dirt.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: TheOldestYoungMan on December 11, 2017, 03:49:11 PM
so were all the times Arabs in the area decided it was a good time to kill Jews (1929, etc.)

I'm obviously not going to condone murdering people, which has happened on both sides in the Jewish-Arab conflicts over the years.

You're implying with your statement that this occurred without any cause though.  A couple days before, hundreds of Jewish nationalists marched to the western wall in Jerusalam shouting slogans like "The Wall Is Ours" and raising the Jewish flag.  There were reports of Jewish youth attacking Arabs, cursing Mohammed, and rumours that they were planning to attack the al-Aqsa Mosque.

Condone?  Perhaps no.  Rationalize?  Shit yea.  Acceptable response to protestors:  burn their fields to the ground, murder their children in their beds.  Got it.  Note to self, don't protest near GuitarStv.

Quote
Your comment also blatantly ignores that most of the coastal plains were purchased by Jews by the time the WW2 was over, not to mention all the land purchased since then - land was not taken and given by Western powers.

As an American, would you be OK with a few Mexican people who were in the country legally buying some coastal property and then illegally inviting a few hundred thousand of their countrymen to come stay with them?  Then continuing to invite more until they start to forcibly take land from the Americans who live there?

If a few Mexican people started launching rockets and mortars at El Paso because it used to be part of Mexico, I expect we would "aggressively annex" some territory as well.  As it turns out, if someone starts a war and then loses, and in the course of that war they lose territory, the loss might be permanent.  The terms of the end of the war might include territory concessions, or it might not.  Open armed conflict moves borders.  That's why you don't start killing neighbors in the street in a horrifying civil war when the other side is still talking.  The restraint shown by Israel is impressive really.  If Mexicans in Juarez did to Texas what the Palestinians do to Israel, the Southern border of the U.S. would cut across somewhere in Tabasco.  Manifest Destiny.

As for the rest of your post, yes, that's what we're saying.  The relentless quest to find the source of that conflict in interference from outside powers is fallacy.  It wasn't a result of post WW2 western guilt, it wasn't a result of some zionist conspiracy.  Jews and Arabs living in the region both wanted regional autonomy.  The origin of the conflict, the actual origin, is when Arabs left the negotiating table because of one round not going in their favor, and initiated a civil war.  Instead of continuing to negotiate and fight in a civilized way, to move forward to a solution they would find tolerable, they chose to just wipe out the infidels.  And then lost.  And won't get over it.

Israel has shown remarkable restraint, patience, and tolerance.  We (Americans) would have annihilated the Palestinians.  Assimilate or GTFO.  We'd have set up little Palestinian reservations and ordained that they drink whiskey and get mediocre healthcare.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: GuitarStv on December 11, 2017, 03:57:46 PM
Arabs attack Jews, and sometimes, not always but sometimes, Jews defend themselves.  It's a subtle but significant difference.

Torching Arab mosques: https://www.thejc.com/judaism/features/does-the-torah-back-burning-mosques-1.18965 (https://www.thejc.com/judaism/features/does-the-torah-back-burning-mosques-1.18965)
Mailbombing: https://www.jweekly.com/1995/06/16/jdl-member-gets-life-term-in-bombing/ (https://www.jweekly.com/1995/06/16/jdl-member-gets-life-term-in-bombing/)
Religious arguments for murder of anyone not Jewish: https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2.209/the-king-s-torah-a-rabbinic-text-or-a-call-to-terror-1.261930 (https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2.209/the-king-s-torah-a-rabbinic-text-or-a-call-to-terror-1.261930)
Indiscriminate Murder: http://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/28/world/west-bank-massacre-before-killing-final-prayer-and-final-taunt.html?pagewanted=all (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/28/world/west-bank-massacre-before-killing-final-prayer-and-final-taunt.html?pagewanted=all)
Settlers attacking Palestinians and property, not for defense:  https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3725186,00.html (https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3725186,00.html)

"For more than a decade, the Jewish Defense League (JDL) has been one of the most active terrorist groups in the United States. [...] Since 1968, JDL operations have killed 7 persons and wounded at least 22. Thirty-nine percent of the targets were connected with the Soviet Union; 9 percent were Palestinian; 8 percent were Lebanese; 6 percent, Egyptian; 4 percent, French, Iranian, and Iraqi; 1 percent, Polish and German; and 23 percent were not connected with any states. Sixty-two percent of all JDL actions are directed against property; 30 percent against businesses; 4 percent against academics and academic institutions; and 2 percent against religious targets." - Department of Energy, Terrorism in the United States and the Potential Threat to Nuclear Facilities, R-3351-DOE, January 1986, pp. 11–16


That difference must be too subtle for me to see.  Or maybe, just maybe . . . everyone involved is human.  There are terrible things done on both sides of this conflict.  Things that have been going on for years.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: PKFFW on December 11, 2017, 04:03:11 PM
I cannot stress enough, you do not know what you are talking about.

Claim the first:  the conflict between those people calling themselves Palestinians and those calling themselves Israelis started after the Holocaust, is somehow the result of nationbuilding in the post-ww2 era.

Why this is false:  The best direct path to trace the violence has it starting due to resentment of the seeming betrayal of the arabs by the British, who instead of recognizing arab independence in the reason in return for them helping to defeat the Ottoman Empire in WW1, created Mandatory Palestine and had notions of creating a jewish homeland in the region.
Your opinion, much disputed.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
Claim the second:  the two state solution was proposed after the creation of modern Israel.

Why this is false:  With some slight variation, the two state solution was the idea put forward as a compromise between the two nationalistic movements within Mandatory Palestine after the founding of the United Nations.  Given that the U.N. charter insists on the rights of people to self-determination, it doesn't really make sense to have a one state solution, was the thinking.  So a compromise was developed, where certain parts of the country would be Israel and others Palestine, and still others were to be Syria.  I think.  It was only after this proposal was presented to the U.N. and agreed to that open conflict started.  The Palestinians and their Arab allies believed they could force a better deal, that the Jews were weak and could be removed from the area through force.  They were wrong, they lost the war, the Jews soundly defeated them, and many Arabs fled.  Israel was born, after the rejection of the two-state solution.

It is important to note, that at the negotiating table after the war, the Jews were still willing to accept a two-state solution, and ceded territories outside the proposed borders of the two-state solution to Palestinian/Syrian/Arab control. Because they are reasonable people and understand that a two-state solution could work, and likely nothing else would.
Ok, you got me there.  There two state solution was proposed before the actual creation of the modern state of Israel but after the intention to create it was clear and the process had already begun.  A technical difference but you are correct.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
Claim the third:  It is comforting to lay the blame at the feet of the Arabs, but that is too simplistic a view.

Why this is false:  The Israelis have never left the negotiating table.  It wasn't their idea to make a deal with the British in WW1.  They never asked for special consideration prior to WW1 or tried to re-create a homeland in the area.  After 1920, arabs in the area in response to British rule began harassing and oppressing jews in the area, because that's how their religion works.  Jews responded not with violence, but by seeking the right of self-determination, as is reasonable of all thinking beings.  It is only after 1936, when Arabs began violently attacking Jews, that the Jews began militarizing, for the first time, as far as I know, since antiquity.
Well this all depends on when you want to claim hostilities began.

I made the claim they began after the creation of the modern state of Israel and you deny that because there have been hostilities prior to that.  How far back do you want to go?  There's a whole book of stories about Jewish people killing every man, woman and child of their enemies at the behest of the God because "that's how their religion works".
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
Every solution that does not involve the Jews giving up their hard-won power, and stepping aside to turn complete control and autonomy of the entire region over to Palestinians, is met with the Palestinians leaving the table and initiating open, armed conflict.  And they don't form a military and attack the Israeli government, they just start wholesale slaughtering anyone they can get their hands on, bombing restaurants and sending mortars into residential neighborhoods.
Funny how a people who have occupied a region for centuries want it back isn't it.  Sure in a perfect world the conquered would simply slink away and leave the conquerors in peace to enjoy the spoils but it doesn't usually work that way.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
The Palestinians started a civil war, which they then lost, and that is the history of Modern Israel.  The conflict is ongoing because the Jews will not eliminate the Palestinians.  There are only two likely resolutions to the conflict:  The Palestinians eventually overcome the IDF and kill every Jew in Israel, or the end of time arrives and we all go out with a tiny little whimper.  The last Palestinians who actually lived in the areas they were displaced from during the civil war are dying of old age, but the conflict still has no end in sight.  There will literally be generations of Arabs who think of themselves as living in exile because their supposed allies will not do the job of a friend, and tell them they've lost.  They're the guy chasing the girl who got married to someone else fifty years ago.  It stopped being healthy awhile ago, and it was never understandable.
You can only have a civil war between members of the same nation state.  The Israeli Palestinian conflict is not a civil war.

The Israelis had not occupied any part of Palestine as a nation state for centuries.  They grabbed some land and decided it was theirs and have held on to it ever since.  The Palestinians have been fighting to get rid of them ever since.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
Claim the fourth: Arabs and Jews have been at each others throats for centuries.

Why this is false:  Arabs attack Jews, and sometimes, not always but sometimes, Jews defend themselves.  It's a subtle but significant difference.  I get the sentiment behind "I wish they would just get along" but it belies a consistent failure to pay attention.  Sometimes when the kids fight its both of their fault.  This isn't one of those times.  It hasn't been for awhile.
Remember that book I mentioned up above?

You seem desperate to believe the Jewish people have never raised a finger in anger or hate or oppression.  It just aint so mate.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
I'm curious, do you recognize the Confederate States of America?  They fought a civil war and lost, so no.
Now that's a civil war and illustrates the point exactly.  Just because you own land in a nation state doesn't mean you get to start your own little country there.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
What about Scotland?  An independent Scotland?  Sure, if they vote and that's what they want.

Now what if the vote is close, and about 45% of the people want to stay, lets call them Brits.  The vote happens, the Scots win, and the Brits go out that night and start murdering Scots.  The Scots manage to fight them off, and push them out of town, and eventually the Brits give up after years of fighting.

Are you really saying the Brits in that situation deserve anything?  And then the Scots go ahead and offer them half the country to live in, and they say no, fuck you, and start murdering scots again?
If Scotland votes to leave the UK then they should be allowed to leave.  If a bunch of Brits don't want to they have the choice of moving to England.  Again, that's a perfect illustration of what could possibly leave to a civil war.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
That's what this is.  It was messy, sure, it would be wouldn't it?  But when the dust clears the victim isn't necessarily the one in the dirt.
No that isn't what this is.  A better example is the British arriving in the Americas and telling the inhabitants there it is no longer their country.

You obviously believe might makes right.  The Israelis decided to make their own country in Palestine.  With the backing of the west they were able to do so and have been able to hold onto it ever since.  it is not a civil war though.  It is a war of conquest.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: TheOldestYoungMan on December 12, 2017, 09:32:50 AM
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
I'm curious, do you recognize the Confederate States of America?  They fought a civil war and lost, so no.
Now that's a civil war and illustrates the point exactly.  Just because you own land in a nation state doesn't mean you get to start your own little country there.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
What about Scotland?  An independent Scotland?  Sure, if they vote and that's what they want.

Now what if the vote is close, and about 45% of the people want to stay, lets call them Brits.  The vote happens, the Scots win, and the Brits go out that night and start murdering Scots.  The Scots manage to fight them off, and push them out of town, and eventually the Brits give up after years of fighting.

Are you really saying the Brits in that situation deserve anything?  And then the Scots go ahead and offer them half the country to live in, and they say no, fuck you, and start murdering scots again?
If Scotland votes to leave the UK then they should be allowed to leave.  If a bunch of Brits don't want to they have the choice of moving to England.  Again, that's a perfect illustration of what could possibly leave to a civil war.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
That's what this is.  It was messy, sure, it would be wouldn't it?  But when the dust clears the victim isn't necessarily the one in the dirt.
No that isn't what this is.  A better example is the British arriving in the Americas and telling the inhabitants there it is no longer their country.

You obviously believe might makes right.  The Israelis decided to make their own country in Palestine.  With the backing of the west they were able to do so and have been able to hold onto it ever since.  it is not a civil war though.  It is a war of conquest.

That's where your misconception is coming from.  Prior to WW2, ~1/3 of the population of the region was Jewish.  It is true that there was immigration of Jews, but it is also true that there was immigration of Arabs and Egyptians.  Astonishingly few of the people there in 1947 can claim to be much more than second generation.  You think there were no Jews in Israel at some point, that it was all the people who now call themselves Palestinians.  That at some point the Jews left and then came back, but it isn't true.  It is true that after the 1947 civil war which created the modern state of Israel, lots of Jewish people emigrated there, with another huge group arriving after the relaxed travel restrictions from the soviet union, which was 1989 ish or something, not going to look it up right now, but it absolutely was a civil war.  It was a particularly brutal civil war, because unlike the U.S. civil war, where there were different regions separated by distance that mobilized and clashed, this was literal neighbors in conflict, your grocer might be the one to set your house on fire that night, sort of fight.  And the Israeli's did not choose to instigate that civil war.

I don't believe that might makes right but I also don't believe that might makes wrong.  The only thing the Israeli's could have done differently is roll over and die.  There is no reason at all to assume that even if they gave up, surrendered to the Palestinians, turned over control to Arabs, that they would be allowed to live in peace.  All evidence in historical fact, modern history, and current rhetoric from the Palestinians makes clear what Israeli's can expect, and it is entirely rational for them to defend themselves.

In any case, I genuinely believe it just comes from you being where I was a few years ago, largely ignorant of the history as you've admitted to, and believing that going back farther than the creation of the modern state isn't necessary for a proper analysis because "how far back do you go."  There's a thousand year + gap between what happened in antiquity and restarting the violence, and no rational person accepts that a grudge like that is justification for a modern conflict.  Forget about what your particular side is arguing, go look at each individual event, plot them on a timeline, be doubtful, you'll get here.

Thanks for arguing with me, I appreciate the opportunity.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: A Definite Beta Guy on December 12, 2017, 10:06:41 AM
Per Wiki, the Jewish population in Mandatory Palestine at the end of WWI was 94,000, or about 1/7 of the population. They definitely had a pretty sizable/lasting presence by the time of the War of Independence, though it had definitely swelled due the 1930s immigration. But by the time of the war for independence, you're talking about a lot of people who are already there for almost 20 years or more.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: GuitarStv on December 12, 2017, 10:34:07 AM
Per Wiki, the Jewish population in Mandatory Palestine at the end of WWI was 94,000, or about 1/7 of the population. They definitely had a pretty sizable/lasting presence by the time of the War of Independence, though it had definitely swelled due the 1930s immigration. But by the time of the war for independence, you're talking about a lot of people who are already there for almost 20 years or more.


1800   - 8%
1890 - 7.6%
1914   - 10.2%
1922 - 11%
1931 - 16.9%
1947   - 32%

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region))


Maybe half of the Jewish people involved in the war for independence had been there for 20 years.  There was a pretty substantial flood of both legal and illegal immigration of Jewish people to Palestine between 1931 and 1947, which was the cause of much of the unrest and uneasiness with the Arab population.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: wenchsenior on December 12, 2017, 11:08:06 AM
Per Wiki, the Jewish population in Mandatory Palestine at the end of WWI was 94,000, or about 1/7 of the population. They definitely had a pretty sizable/lasting presence by the time of the War of Independence, though it had definitely swelled due the 1930s immigration. But by the time of the war for independence, you're talking about a lot of people who are already there for almost 20 years or more.


1800   - 8%
1890 - 7.6%
1914   - 10.2%
1922 - 11%
1931 - 16.9%
1947   - 32%

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region))


Maybe half of the Jewish people involved in the war for independence had been there for 20 years.  There was a pretty substantial flood of both legal and illegal immigration of Jewish people to Palestine between 1931 and 1947, which was the cause of much of the unrest and uneasiness with the Arab population.

Kind of reminds me of voters who agitate for a Big Beautiful Wall to prevent immigrants from coming in...
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: A Definite Beta Guy on December 12, 2017, 01:16:36 PM
The presence of new Jews doesn't mean the Old Jews aren't there and don't deserve national self-determination. The Arabs made their attempt at stopping the partition plan, which was reasonable in its own logic, and it failed. If you try to resolve disputes by force and end up on the losing side, terms will almost always be less favorable than what you were offered in the first place.

There's nothing particularly unusual about Israel's policies or actions after independence. The only real exception is the not-at-all-discrete nuclear program. The Suez Crisis is pretty blatant aggression, but the UK and France were on board with it, so Israel's actions can't be said to be outside international norms of the time.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: GuitarStv on December 12, 2017, 02:07:34 PM
Per Wiki, the Jewish population in Mandatory Palestine at the end of WWI was 94,000, or about 1/7 of the population. They definitely had a pretty sizable/lasting presence by the time of the War of Independence, though it had definitely swelled due the 1930s immigration. But by the time of the war for independence, you're talking about a lot of people who are already there for almost 20 years or more.


1800   - 8%
1890 - 7.6%
1914   - 10.2%
1922 - 11%
1931 - 16.9%
1947   - 32%

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region))


Maybe half of the Jewish people involved in the war for independence had been there for 20 years.  There was a pretty substantial flood of both legal and illegal immigration of Jewish people to Palestine between 1931 and 1947, which was the cause of much of the unrest and uneasiness with the Arab population.

Kind of reminds me of voters who agitate for a Big Beautiful Wall to prevent immigrants from coming in...

Not quite.  You would have to imagine if the Mexicans who illegally immigrated and the Americans who already lived there were told by the UN that half of the US belonged to the Mexicans now, and the US was going to be partitioned into two countries.


The presence of new Jews doesn't mean the Old Jews aren't there and don't deserve national self-determination. The Arabs made their attempt at stopping the partition plan, which was reasonable in its own logic, and it failed. If you try to resolve disputes by force and end up on the losing side, terms will almost always be less favorable than what you were offered in the first place.

There's nothing particularly unusual about Israel's policies or actions after independence. The only real exception is the not-at-all-discrete nuclear program. The Suez Crisis is pretty blatant aggression, but the UK and France were on board with it, so Israel's actions can't be said to be outside international norms of the time.

After the Israeli's conquered the people who had been living in the land they wanted with outside help from several Western countries, there's not too much that's outside international norms of the time - agreed.  But the UN telling a bunch of people to move into an area and then arming them/helping them fight off the inhabitants so they can make a new country . . . that's kinda a weird scenario that started the whole mess.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Ders on December 12, 2017, 02:33:03 PM
This came up on my Quora Digest today:

https://www.quora.com/Is-Palestine-occupied-by-Israel-My-father-who-is-a-Palestinian-said-so-but-some-people-say-otherwise-Who-is-correct

There's some good content and discussion in the comments below.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: wenchsenior on December 12, 2017, 02:42:34 PM
Per Wiki, the Jewish population in Mandatory Palestine at the end of WWI was 94,000, or about 1/7 of the population. They definitely had a pretty sizable/lasting presence by the time of the War of Independence, though it had definitely swelled due the 1930s immigration. But by the time of the war for independence, you're talking about a lot of people who are already there for almost 20 years or more.


1800   - 8%
1890 - 7.6%
1914   - 10.2%
1922 - 11%
1931 - 16.9%
1947   - 32%

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region))


Maybe half of the Jewish people involved in the war for independence had been there for 20 years.  There was a pretty substantial flood of both legal and illegal immigration of Jewish people to Palestine between 1931 and 1947, which was the cause of much of the unrest and uneasiness with the Arab population.

Kind of reminds me of voters who agitate for a Big Beautiful Wall to prevent immigrants from coming in...

Not quite.  You would have to imagine if the Mexicans who illegally immigrated and the Americans who already lived there were told by the UN that half of the US belonged to the Mexicans now, and the US was going to be partitioned into two countries.


The presence of new Jews doesn't mean the Old Jews aren't there and don't deserve national self-determination. The Arabs made their attempt at stopping the partition plan, which was reasonable in its own logic, and it failed. If you try to resolve disputes by force and end up on the losing side, terms will almost always be less favorable than what you were offered in the first place.

There's nothing particularly unusual about Israel's policies or actions after independence. The only real exception is the not-at-all-discrete nuclear program. The Suez Crisis is pretty blatant aggression, but the UK and France were on board with it, so Israel's actions can't be said to be outside international norms of the time.

After the Israeli's conquered the people who had been living in the land they wanted with outside help from several Western countries, there's not too much that's outside international norms of the time - agreed.  But the UN telling a bunch of people to move into an area and then arming them/helping them fight off the inhabitants so they can make a new country . . . that's kinda a weird scenario that started the whole mess.

That is similar to another analogy I've always thought of (though not perfect one): prior to the U.S. annexing CA, the population in what became CA was about 3/4ers Latin American/Mexican, and a quarter Spanish, American, and European.  Eventually the escalating conflict with Mexico led to the U.S. annexing and holding the state.  But many decades later, descendants of all the original groups were still there.  It would be very strange to then suddenly declare (lets say) southern CA to be an independent nation to be held by the descendants of Mexican residents, and relegate all citizens who were descendants of the European and American who lived there to second class status.


Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: A Definite Beta Guy on December 12, 2017, 03:19:28 PM
Per Wiki, the Jewish population in Mandatory Palestine at the end of WWI was 94,000, or about 1/7 of the population. They definitely had a pretty sizable/lasting presence by the time of the War of Independence, though it had definitely swelled due the 1930s immigration. But by the time of the war for independence, you're talking about a lot of people who are already there for almost 20 years or more.


1800   - 8%
1890 - 7.6%
1914   - 10.2%
1922 - 11%
1931 - 16.9%
1947   - 32%

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region))


Maybe half of the Jewish people involved in the war for independence had been there for 20 years.  There was a pretty substantial flood of both legal and illegal immigration of Jewish people to Palestine between 1931 and 1947, which was the cause of much of the unrest and uneasiness with the Arab population.

Kind of reminds me of voters who agitate for a Big Beautiful Wall to prevent immigrants from coming in...

Not quite.  You would have to imagine if the Mexicans who illegally immigrated and the Americans who already lived there were told by the UN that half of the US belonged to the Mexicans now, and the US was going to be partitioned into two countries.


The presence of new Jews doesn't mean the Old Jews aren't there and don't deserve national self-determination. The Arabs made their attempt at stopping the partition plan, which was reasonable in its own logic, and it failed. If you try to resolve disputes by force and end up on the losing side, terms will almost always be less favorable than what you were offered in the first place.

There's nothing particularly unusual about Israel's policies or actions after independence. The only real exception is the not-at-all-discrete nuclear program. The Suez Crisis is pretty blatant aggression, but the UK and France were on board with it, so Israel's actions can't be said to be outside international norms of the time.

After the Israeli's conquered the people who had been living in the land they wanted with outside help from several Western countries, there's not too much that's outside international norms of the time - agreed.  But the UN telling a bunch of people to move into an area and then arming them/helping them fight off the inhabitants so they can make a new country . . . that's kinda a weird scenario that started the whole mess.

It's a bit weird, but mess is baked into the cake in the Middle East, and given the volume of illegal immigration into Mandate Palestine, I don't think the UK could've really prevented the mess. Plus Jordan was eyeing up Palestine the entire time.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: PKFFW on December 13, 2017, 02:44:08 AM
That's where your misconception is coming from.  Prior to WW2, ~1/3 of the population of the region was Jewish.  It is true that there was immigration of Jews, but it is also true that there was immigration of Arabs and Egyptians.  Astonishingly few of the people there in 1947 can claim to be much more than second generation.  You think there were no Jews in Israel at some point, that it was all the people who now call themselves Palestinians.
No I don't think that at all.

The situation is analogous to the USA.  There are a bunch of Mexicans living there and have been ever since the USA conquered the whole New Mexico area.  That doesn't mean they get to declare a part of the USA to be their own and create their own country.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
That at some point the Jews left and then came back, but it isn't true.
No again.

At some point, a few centuries ago, the Jewish people were conquered and the Arabs took over the place.  That's unfortunate but it's also ancient history.  Yes, some Jews remained.  Again, analogous to the Brits coming to the USA and taking over from the Native Americans.  Yes some of them are left in the USA.  The solution today is not for the Native Americans to grab a patch of land and declare it their own country and then to start expanding that area whenever they feel like it.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
It is true that after the 1947 civil war which created the modern state of Israel, lots of Jewish people emigrated there, with another huge group arriving after the relaxed travel restrictions from the soviet union, which was 1989 ish or something, not going to look it up right now, but it absolutely was a civil war.  It was a particularly brutal civil war, because unlike the U.S. civil war, where there were different regions separated by distance that mobilized and clashed, this was literal neighbors in conflict, your grocer might be the one to set your house on fire that night, sort of fight.  And the Israeli's did not choose to instigate that civil war.
Civil war -
"a war between citizens of the same country"

So no, not a civil war as the Jewish people in the region were not citizens of the same country as the Palestinians.  As you have mentioned previously, they were stateless and happened to be living in a part of another country.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
I don't believe that might makes right but I also don't believe that might makes wrong.
So it's not right or wrong to take over part of another nation state and decide it is now yours just because you have the military to do so.  Gotcha.

I guess it mostly depends on which side you're on.  I'm betting if the Palestinians had the military might to win the conflict in a decisive and final way you would have no problem with that?
Quote from: TheoldesYoungMan
The only thing the Israeli's could have done differently is roll over and die.  There is no reason at all to assume that even if they gave up, surrendered to the Palestinians, turned over control to Arabs, that they would be allowed to live in peace.  All evidence in historical fact, modern history, and current rhetoric from the Palestinians makes clear what Israeli's can expect, and it is entirely rational for them to defend themselves.
I agree there is no evidence to suggest they would be left alone to live in peace if they turned over control to the Palestinians.  I'll even agree that if they all up and left and created a new Israel in, say, the USA, the fundamentalist Muslim minority would still probably want to kill them.  Of course setting up in the USA isn't going to happen because the USA isn't partial to having parts of its territory annexed and given away and has the military might to ensure that doesn't happen whereas the Palestinians didn't.

Of course that has nothing to do with what started the present conflict, which was the point I was discussing.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
In any case, I genuinely believe it just comes from you being where I was a few years ago, largely ignorant of the history as you've admitted to,
I never admitted to being "largely ignorant".  I do admit you've pointed out a couple of minor points I didn't know.  The rest is a matter of opinion that we differ on, not indisputable historical facts that I am ignorant of.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
and believing that going back farther than the creation of the modern state isn't necessary for a proper analysis because "how far back do you go."
Let me be clear.  I do understand that one needs to go back further than the creation of the modern state of Israel to understand the historical hostility between Arabs and Jews.  That historical enmity of course plays a part in the modern conflict.

What I don't agree with is that you can unilaterally decide on a point of origin that suits your argument and claim that is undeniably the beginning of the current conflict.  If you want to go back before the creation of the modern state of Israel then go back and look at it all.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
There's a thousand year + gap between what happened in antiquity and restarting the violence, and no rational person accepts that a grudge like that is justification for a modern conflict.  Forget about what your particular side is arguing, go look at each individual event, plot them on a timeline, be doubtful, you'll get here.
Your attitude of smug superiority and condescending implication that I will "get there" if only I educate myself seems a lot like the "smug liberalism" that so many in this thread (yourself included I think though I couldn't be bothered going back through your posts to be certain about) have railed against.  I guess it's ok to be a smug conservative though.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
Thanks for arguing with me, I appreciate the opportunity.
Except for the above mentioned attitude it's been interesting.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Dabnasty on December 13, 2017, 07:45:31 AM
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
There's a thousand year + gap between what happened in antiquity and restarting the violence, and no rational person accepts that a grudge like that is justification for a modern conflict.  Forget about what your particular side is arguing, go look at each individual event, plot them on a timeline, be doubtful, you'll get here.
Your attitude of smug superiority and condescending implication that I will "get there" if only I educate myself seems a lot like the "smug liberalism" that so many in this thread (yourself included I think though I couldn't be bothered going back through your posts to be certain about) have railed against.  I guess it's ok to be a smug conservative though.
It was definitely TOYM, on several occasions. He posted an article about it.

In a political environment where people have become this divided it's no surprise that those on both sides are acting smug. Not all, but many. When you think you know something and you have enough sources (reputable or not) to back you up it takes effort not to act smug, effort which TOYM has not put forth. Not in this debate and not in the many lengthy rants he's gone on lately.

Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: MrMoogle on December 13, 2017, 11:06:38 AM
The more important the position the more important policy matters.  The less important the position, the more important character matters.  This is why Trump won, and Roy Moore lost.  A senate seat was important enough to make it close. 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: A Definite Beta Guy on December 13, 2017, 11:34:26 AM
There's nothing inherently wrong with ethnic Mexicans in the United States who no longer identify as American demanding their own nation or even demanding to become part of Mexico. It really doesn't make a lot of sense, since they already HAVE a nation just south of the US, but there's nothing inherently wrong in it, either. If the US wishes to stop this possibility, it should bar immigration from Mexico and pursue policies that bolster a common American identity, which also isn't inherently wrong.

You'd also have to be an idiot to want to keep such people in the nation, particularly after decades of already existing conflict. You think I'd want to keep SoCal if it becomes overrun with Mexican revanchists that operate their own militias and multiple civil wars? Yeah, no, I'm not sending millions of people to their deaths in an effort to retain San Diego. If I try and I end up losing all of California due to Mexico wanting to safeguard its new territory, thems the breaks. 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: GuitarStv on December 13, 2017, 11:39:34 AM
The more important the position the more important policy matters.  The less important the position, the more important character matters.  This is why Trump won, and Roy Moore lost.  A senate seat was important enough to make it close.

Which particular aspects of Trump's policy do you believe won him the election?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Jrr85 on December 13, 2017, 12:22:09 PM
The more important the position the more important policy matters.  The less important the position, the more important character matters.  This is why Trump won, and Roy Moore lost.  A senate seat was important enough to make it close.

Which particular aspects of Trump's policy do you believe won him the election?

Mainly his strongly held policy of not being Hillary Clinton. 

Now, which policies won him the primary?  No freaking clue.  Not being Jeb Bush or Rubio helped.  But Cruz was also not Jeb Bush or Rubio. 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 13, 2017, 02:20:38 PM
https://shareblue.com/gop-went-all-in-for-pedophilia-and-they-can-never-undo-it/

Quote
Not only did Roy Moore lose Alabama’s Senate race against Doug Jones, but in the process, the Republican Party cemented its status as a safe space for pedophilia.

A moment of moral cowardice will stain the party for years to come.

Despite his sordid past and bigoted present, Moore was able to count on the support of Donald Trump, who used his status as president to aggressively campaign on Moore’s behalf. Trump, who has admitted to sexually assaulting women, was eager to back his fellow Republican, even as credible reports of pedophilia surfaced.

Quote
Thanks to the political maneuvering of its leadership, the linkage of pedophilia and the Republican Party will be cemented, further turning the party that once claimed Abraham Lincoln into one in which serial sexual assault, racism, and now child molestation is no stumbling block in the pursuit of power.

This is your modern day GOP.  I certainly couldn't sleep at night voting Republican.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: wenchsenior on December 13, 2017, 02:29:15 PM
https://shareblue.com/gop-went-all-in-for-pedophilia-and-they-can-never-undo-it/

Quote
Not only did Roy Moore lose Alabama’s Senate race against Doug Jones, but in the process, the Republican Party cemented its status as a safe space for pedophilia.

A moment of moral cowardice will stain the party for years to come.

Despite his sordid past and bigoted present, Moore was able to count on the support of Donald Trump, who used his status as president to aggressively campaign on Moore’s behalf. Trump, who has admitted to sexually assaulting women, was eager to back his fellow Republican, even as credible reports of pedophilia surfaced.

Quote
Thanks to the political maneuvering of its leadership, the linkage of pedophilia and the Republican Party will be cemented, further turning the party that once claimed Abraham Lincoln into one in which serial sexual assault, racism, and now child molestation is no stumbling block in the pursuit of power.

This is your modern day GOP.  I certainly couldn't sleep at night voting Republican.

At this point I would not be surprised to see the GOP party apparatus offer financial support to an avowed neoNazi for office.  Or even someone convicted of murder.  Seriously, I thought things were bad under W, but I'm pretty sure the party has reached a point of having no depth to which it will not dive.  I would NEVER have believed this 10 years ago.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 13, 2017, 03:26:45 PM
At this point I would not be surprised to see the GOP party apparatus offer financial support to an avowed neoNazi for office. 

Will the Nazi vote for tax cuts for billionaires?

As I've previously pointed out in other threads, the republican party doesn't actually care about social issues or religion.  It only cares about protecting the financial interests of the ultra-rich donors that fund the party coffers and pay all of the party salaries.  So Nazis are probably fine, as long as they support tax reform.  Pedophiles apparently get their full support, too.  And we know that generic (non-pedo) sexual predators are on the approved list, since they nominated an avowed pussy grabber.

All forms of social evils will continue to be acceptable to the GOP until actual conservative Americans retake their party from the hands of the plutocrats that currently run their show.  Average Americans who legitimately share the party's stated (but not lived) positions on social issues seemingly haven't noticed the GOP's complete betrayal of those values in pursuit of toxic wealth transfers from the poor to the rich.

Nothing could be more unamerican than the GOP's current fiscal policies.  They are anti-individualism, anti-bootstrap, anti-hard-work, and anti-personal-responsibility.  Since the party no longer supports conservative social values (see: Moore, Trump), what else is left for those voters?

In that light it's almost shocking that Alabama was a close election.  Maybe people are starting to catch on the con?  At least the ones under 65?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: A Definite Beta Guy on December 13, 2017, 03:42:27 PM
I just don't see that happening. What you are seeing is the RESULT of the "actual American conservatives" taking back the party from the plutocrat RINOs. They cannot build any sort of majority, so they are stuck supporting all manner of unsavory characters to keep their policy positions. They'd sooner unseat John McCain than they would Roy Moore, because McCain voted against ACA and Moore wouldn't. They'd be less inclined to have this positon if they had 60 votes in the Senate, but they don't.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: MrMoogle on December 14, 2017, 11:40:48 AM
The more important the position the more important policy matters.  The less important the position, the more important character matters.  This is why Trump won, and Roy Moore lost.  A senate seat was important enough to make it close.

Which particular aspects of Trump's policy do you believe won him the election?
I probably didn't state what I meant very well.  I meant because the president is the most important position in government, a lot of people were willing to overlook his character flaws.  Many Republicans voted for him because he was claiming to be Republican, even though we/they disliked him personally.

At work yesterday, I heard something along the lines of, "Would I leave my kids alone with Roy Moore?  Of course not.  But he is more likely to make the country the way I think is best than Doug Jones."

The twitter spam, his lack of respect for women and minorities, his ego, and anything else you personally don't like about the man, can all be overlooked if you believe his policy will make America better than the opponent's policy.  Hillary would follow a similar path as Obama, and I did not like much of Obama's policy.  Sadly, Hillary was the only other realistic choice.

Of course Trump didn't win on policy alone, but a lot of people who disliked him, still voted for him because of the R by his name.  And because it's for the most powerful government position in the US, that was enough.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: GuitarStv on December 14, 2017, 11:48:09 AM
The more important the position the more important policy matters.  The less important the position, the more important character matters.  This is why Trump won, and Roy Moore lost.  A senate seat was important enough to make it close.

Which particular aspects of Trump's policy do you believe won him the election?
I probably didn't state what I meant very well.  I meant because the president is the most important position in government, a lot of people were willing to overlook his character flaws.  Many Republicans voted for him because he was claiming to be Republican, even though we/they disliked him personally.

At work yesterday, I heard something along the lines of, "Would I leave my kids alone with Roy Moore?  Of course not.  But he is more likely to make the country the way I think is best than Doug Jones."

The twitter spam, his lack of respect for women and minorities, his ego, and anything else you personally don't like about the man, can all be overlooked if you believe his policy will make America better than the opponent's policy.  Hillary would follow a similar path as Obama, and I did not like much of Obama's policy.  Sadly, Hillary was the only other realistic choice.

Of course Trump didn't win on policy alone, but a lot of people who disliked him, still voted for him because of the R by his name.  And because it's for the most powerful government position in the US, that was enough.

Yeah, but . . . much of his policy was pretty flawed from an implementation standpoint.

He wanted to build a wall between Mexico and the US.  He wanted to prevent Muslims from entering the country.  He wanted to repeal the ACA.  He promised to lock up Hilary Clinton.

Did people not understand that this policy would be nigh impossible to follow through on?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: MrMoogle on December 14, 2017, 01:37:02 PM
*Snip*

Yeah, but . . . much of his policy was pretty flawed from an implementation standpoint.

He wanted to build a wall between Mexico and the US.  He wanted to prevent Muslims from entering the country.  He wanted to repeal the ACA.  He promised to lock up Hilary Clinton.

Did people not understand that this policy would be nigh impossible to follow through on?
If you understand much of his policies would nearly be impossible to follow through on, and then you understand that all politicians have policy that's impossible/nearly impossible to implement. 

If you don't understand much of his policies would nearly be impossible to follow through on, then you probably won't be paying attention when they don't get implemented.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: GuitarStv on December 14, 2017, 02:10:34 PM
*Snip*

Yeah, but . . . much of his policy was pretty flawed from an implementation standpoint.

He wanted to build a wall between Mexico and the US.  He wanted to prevent Muslims from entering the country.  He wanted to repeal the ACA.  He promised to lock up Hilary Clinton.

Did people not understand that this policy would be nigh impossible to follow through on?
If you understand much of his policies would nearly be impossible to follow through on, and then you understand that all politicians have policy that's impossible/nearly impossible to implement. 

Typically the impossible stuff doesn't make up the majority of the stated policy positions.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: talltexan on December 15, 2017, 07:39:11 AM

So basically, you are saying that you don't believe in the entire concept of international relations or diplomacy. OOKay. I'm sure you know so much more about this than diplomats, military leaders, and power brokers dealing with people in these countries all these decades. If you want to create an us vs them situation, sure that's easy to do. If you want to have these other countries to buy into controlling and guiding their own people away from violent acts, you have given them no, actually negative motivation to do so. I'm not sure what that accomplishes, and it sure seems like you have little to no regard for innocents who are casualties on either side.


As to me knowing more than all these experts, of course I don't know more than them, but I can look at the state of the Middle East right now and see the most stable part of it is Israel, probably Saudi Arabia too.  Normalized relations with us is apparently good for you.  Kuwait seems like a pretty decent place to live, having decided to not try and kill us and just sell us oil.  It isn't that not choosing violence means we'll be nice to you and stop our negative mojo and you'll be a successful stable country, it's that if you're choosing violence everything is unstable and eventually turns to shit.

I can look at world leaders, who specifically cite not wanting to incite terrorist violence, and call them cowards and idiots besides.  The terrorist violence has never needed a reason, and if they did, that ship sailed long ago.  The sooner we stop trying to reason with people who left the negotiating table long ago, the better off we'll all be.

If you think Saudi Arabia is stable right now, I'd suggest more study: THE ECONOMIST has some pretty in-depth reporting about Crown Prince MBS's recent power plays, including imprisoning one of his wealthiest cousins. The power structure and economy there are very fragile, and the looming IPO of ARAMCO could either make them or break them. They are being drained of resources by the proxy war in Yemen. This is a country with several major threats right now.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: talltexan on December 15, 2017, 07:46:45 AM
The more important the position the more important policy matters.  The less important the position, the more important character matters.  This is why Trump won, and Roy Moore lost.  A senate seat was important enough to make it close.

Which particular aspects of Trump's policy do you believe won him the election?
I probably didn't state what I meant very well.  I meant because the president is the most important position in government, a lot of people were willing to overlook his character flaws.  Many Republicans voted for him because he was claiming to be Republican, even though we/they disliked him personally.

At work yesterday, I heard something along the lines of, "Would I leave my kids alone with Roy Moore?  Of course not.  But he is more likely to make the country the way I think is best than Doug Jones."

The twitter spam, his lack of respect for women and minorities, his ego, and anything else you personally don't like about the man, can all be overlooked if you believe his policy will make America better than the opponent's policy.  Hillary would follow a similar path as Obama, and I did not like much of Obama's policy.  Sadly, Hillary was the only other realistic choice.

Of course Trump didn't win on policy alone, but a lot of people who disliked him, still voted for him because of the R by his name.  And because it's for the most powerful government position in the US, that was enough.

Yeah, but . . . much of his policy was pretty flawed from an implementation standpoint.

He wanted to build a wall between Mexico and the US.  He wanted to prevent Muslims from entering the country.  He wanted to repeal the ACA.  He promised to lock up Hilary Clinton.

Did people not understand that this policy would be nigh impossible to follow through on?

I consider myself a bit of a technocrat and couldn't understand why Trump's incoherent positions appealed to voters. But I heard from several experts who work for the major forecasting firms--think IHS, Moody's, etc.--who said they found the sheer volume of policy papers released to them by the Clinton campaign equally difficult to parse. Her campaign simply created soooo many policies that it would have been impossible to do more than a small fraction of them, particularly with a GOP House.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Just Joe on December 15, 2017, 07:47:53 AM
If you think Saudi Arabia is stable right now, I'd suggest more study: THE ECONOMIST has some pretty in-depth reporting about Crown Prince MBS's recent power plays, including imprisoning one of his wealthiest cousins. The power structure and economy there are very fragile, and the looming IPO of ARAMCO could either make them or break them. They are being drained of resources by the proxy war in Yemen. This is a country with several major threats right now.

$4 gasoline by summer again?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: talltexan on December 15, 2017, 08:13:05 AM
their inability to push up the price of gas is one of those threats.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: A Definite Beta Guy on December 15, 2017, 08:41:21 AM

So basically, you are saying that you don't believe in the entire concept of international relations or diplomacy. OOKay. I'm sure you know so much more about this than diplomats, military leaders, and power brokers dealing with people in these countries all these decades. If you want to create an us vs them situation, sure that's easy to do. If you want to have these other countries to buy into controlling and guiding their own people away from violent acts, you have given them no, actually negative motivation to do so. I'm not sure what that accomplishes, and it sure seems like you have little to no regard for innocents who are casualties on either side.


As to me knowing more than all these experts, of course I don't know more than them, but I can look at the state of the Middle East right now and see the most stable part of it is Israel, probably Saudi Arabia too.  Normalized relations with us is apparently good for you.  Kuwait seems like a pretty decent place to live, having decided to not try and kill us and just sell us oil.  It isn't that not choosing violence means we'll be nice to you and stop our negative mojo and you'll be a successful stable country, it's that if you're choosing violence everything is unstable and eventually turns to shit.

I can look at world leaders, who specifically cite not wanting to incite terrorist violence, and call them cowards and idiots besides.  The terrorist violence has never needed a reason, and if they did, that ship sailed long ago.  The sooner we stop trying to reason with people who left the negotiating table long ago, the better off we'll all be.

If you think Saudi Arabia is stable right now, I'd suggest more study: THE ECONOMIST has some pretty in-depth reporting about Crown Prince MBS's recent power plays, including imprisoning one of his wealthiest cousins. The power structure and economy there are very fragile, and the looming IPO of ARAMCO could either make them or break them. They are being drained of resources by the proxy war in Yemen. This is a country with several major threats right now.

Yup, but compare SA to its neighbors. I think Jordan is more stable, but SA is a sight better than anyone else. Maybe you can make an argument that Iran is more stable...but I think that'd be tenuous.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Jrr85 on December 15, 2017, 11:32:28 AM
*Snip*

Yeah, but . . . much of his policy was pretty flawed from an implementation standpoint.

He wanted to build a wall between Mexico and the US.  He wanted to prevent Muslims from entering the country.  He wanted to repeal the ACA.  He promised to lock up Hilary Clinton.

Did people not understand that this policy would be nigh impossible to follow through on?
If you understand much of his policies would nearly be impossible to follow through on, and then you understand that all politicians have policy that's impossible/nearly impossible to implement. 

Typically the impossible stuff doesn't make up the majority of the stated policy positions.

It really does, at least implicitly.  If any politician tried to pitch realistic policy, they'd be lucky to even make it on the ballot, much less compete in any election.  It's pretty much a prerequisite for any politician in a federal position to pretend that we are going to be able to continue providing entitlements at the "promised" level and that whoever has to pay for them, it will be somebody else, not you the voter. 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: CheapScholar on December 15, 2017, 06:49:56 PM
I always vote straight ticket GOP.  I wouldn't say I regret voting for W, because Gore would have been worse.  I definitely do NOT regret voting for Trump.  Honestly, best two votes I ever cast (primary and general).  I'm a paleoconservative and love McKinley and the early 20th century GOP.  Can't wait for Trump to get us out of NAFTA.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: accolay on December 16, 2017, 11:21:18 AM
Can't wait for Trump to get us out of NAFTA.

Yeah, sounds like a great idea.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2017/05/06/ending-nafta-would-be-the-disaster/#c5daf036c8f7 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2017/05/06/ending-nafta-would-be-the-disaster/#c5daf036c8f7)
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: marty998 on December 16, 2017, 05:15:05 PM
I wouldn't say I regret voting for W, because Gore would have been worse.

I'm always curious on what basis these claims are made. (e.g. Hillary would be worse).

It's really not possible to know, because they were never in power so you cannot make that judgement.

One might wonder if the simple act of gaining power changes people. In the case of certain Australian politicians recently, on ascension to the top job there have been fundamental changes in those people and a significant weakening of their convictions.

It's easy to spout hyper partisan policy when you are preaching to your base in the pre-election campaigning period (which is probably what you are basing your "Al Gore would be worse" assumption on). Everyone moderates when they are in power, and the same will happen with your current dear leader.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 16, 2017, 09:36:21 PM

Everyone moderates when they are in power, and the same will happen with your current dear leader.

We keep waiting for Trump to show some hint of decorum or intelligent forethought to his actions, but so far it's all "she's a fat pig" and "grab 'em by the pussy" and Nazis are very fine people and Little Rocket Man and BUILD THE WALL, BUILD THE WALL over and over again.  Last week he accused a female senator who accused him of sexual misconduct of offering him a blowjob in exchange for a campaign contribution.

He calls it being "modern day presidential".
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Just Joe on December 17, 2017, 09:19:50 PM
Trump has been a real treat to behold...
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: talltexan on December 18, 2017, 09:54:54 AM

Everyone moderates when they are in power, and the same will happen with your current dear leader.

We keep waiting for Trump to show some hint of decorum or intelligent forethought to his actions, but so far it's all "she's a fat pig" and "grab 'em by the pussy" and Nazis are very fine people and Little Rocket Man and BUILD THE WALL, BUILD THE WALL over and over again.  Last week he accused a female senator who accused him of sexual misconduct of offering him a blowjob in exchange for a campaign contribution.

He calls it being "modern day presidential".

I don't think this is being fair to the "moderates in power" claim; Trump has moderated in many policy dimensions by moving toward mainstream conservative Republican positions. See the Health Care bills, the tax plan, appointment of judges.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: NoStacheOhio on December 18, 2017, 10:00:48 AM

Everyone moderates when they are in power, and the same will happen with your current dear leader.

We keep waiting for Trump to show some hint of decorum or intelligent forethought to his actions, but so far it's all "she's a fat pig" and "grab 'em by the pussy" and Nazis are very fine people and Little Rocket Man and BUILD THE WALL, BUILD THE WALL over and over again.  Last week he accused a female senator who accused him of sexual misconduct of offering him a blowjob in exchange for a campaign contribution.

He calls it being "modern day presidential".

I don't think this is being fair to the "moderates in power" claim; Trump has moderated in many policy dimensions by moving toward mainstream conservative Republican positions. See the Health Care bills, the tax plan, appointment of judges.

Maybe don't hang your hat on this one .... Gorsuch I get, but Petersen? Talley?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: GuitarStv on December 18, 2017, 10:01:20 AM
Trump has moderated in many policy dimensions by moving toward mainstream conservative Republican positions. See the ... appointment of judges.

Mainstream conservative Republicans want judges appointed who have never tried a case to verdict in a courtroom, never tried a case in state or federal court, never argued a motion, or conducted a deposition on their own like Petersen?  Is being totally unqualified for a position something that conservative Republicans are really clamoring for?  If so, why?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Lagom on December 18, 2017, 11:14:31 AM
Trump has moderated in many policy dimensions by moving toward mainstream conservative Republican positions. See the ... appointment of judges.

Mainstream conservative Republicans want judges appointed who have never tried a case to verdict in a courtroom, never tried a case in state or federal court, never argued a motion, or conducted a deposition on their own like Petersen?  Is being totally unqualified for a position something that conservative Republicans are really clamoring for?  If so, why?

Same reason they don't mind electing child molesters and serial pussy grabbers to office, because these "mainstream" choices will make sure the "right" laws are passed/upheld. The depths of these official's incompetence is irrelevant as long as they check the right boxes on wedge issues. Amazingly, these so-callled "mainstream" republicans have convinced themselves this is somehow politics as usual.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: ncornilsen on December 18, 2017, 03:12:38 PM
I regret that I voted for trump. I did so largely, because I thought Clinton would win, and wanted to not add to any mandate she felt she had.

That said, locally, our Democrats are a disaster. My mayor is an idiot, who talks about 'science based' driving his policy, yet he can't grasp the basic data about a number of issues I'm working on in my area. Then there's 'dopey' jeff merkely. Ive met the guy, and I'm surprised he was able to read a teleprompter long enough to make his campaign adds. He's not corrupt that I know of, but just... he's not bright. Or wyden. He doesn't even LIVE in this state anymore.

Not to mention kate brown... a poster child for failure. I won't go into this here, but she's awful.  So, I have no regrets about voting for Republicans locally, or the candidates for the house/senate who ran here... but, now that things have come to light about a state rep who is in the middle of his own sexual harassment scandal, I wouldn't be able to support him if he were in my district. I hope someone qualified comes along I could support.

Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: former player on December 19, 2017, 02:15:39 AM
I regret that I voted for trump. I did so largely, because I thought Clinton would win, and wanted to not add to any mandate she felt she had.

That said, locally, our Democrats are a disaster. My mayor is an idiot, who talks about 'science based' driving his policy, yet he can't grasp the basic data about a number of issues I'm working on in my area. Then there's 'dopey' jeff merkely. Ive met the guy, and I'm surprised he was able to read a teleprompter long enough to make his campaign adds. He's not corrupt that I know of, but just... he's not bright. Or wyden. He doesn't even LIVE in this state anymore.

Not to mention kate brown... a poster child for failure. I won't go into this here, but she's awful.  So, I have no regrets about voting for Republicans locally, or the candidates for the house/senate who ran here... but, now that things have come to light about a state rep who is in the middle of his own sexual harassment scandal, I wouldn't be able to support him if he were in my district. I hope someone qualified comes along I could support.
Become the solution: stand for something yourself.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 19, 2017, 08:35:17 AM
I'm a paleoconservative and love McKinley and the early 20th century GOP.

The modern day GOP looks nothing like the early 20th century GOP.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: talltexan on December 19, 2017, 08:39:21 AM
Trump has moderated in many policy dimensions by moving toward mainstream conservative Republican positions. See the ... appointment of judges.

Mainstream conservative Republicans want judges appointed who have never tried a case to verdict in a courtroom, never tried a case in state or federal court, never argued a motion, or conducted a deposition on their own like Petersen?  Is being totally unqualified for a position something that conservative Republicans are really clamoring for?  If so, why?

I believe you're referencing the completely unqualified judge who's been circulating on the internet. Indeed he is even less qualified for a judge-ship than Harriet Miers (a W appointee) was for the Supreme Court. But there are many qualified judges who are very strict constitutionalists that Trump is appointing (guys like Don Willet). He's basically going down a Federalist Society Roster to name them. And--if you're a true conservative--you should be excited about these judges.

If you're to the left, you find these people horrifying not because of their knowledge of the law, but because you think originalism is not a legitimate legal doctrine.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Kris on December 19, 2017, 08:43:11 AM
Trump has moderated in many policy dimensions by moving toward mainstream conservative Republican positions. See the ... appointment of judges.

Mainstream conservative Republicans want judges appointed who have never tried a case to verdict in a courtroom, never tried a case in state or federal court, never argued a motion, or conducted a deposition on their own like Petersen?  Is being totally unqualified for a position something that conservative Republicans are really clamoring for?  If so, why?

I believe you're referencing the completely unqualified judge who's been circulating on the internet. Indeed he is even less qualified for a judge-ship than Harriet Miers (a W appointee) was for the Supreme Court. But there are many qualified judges who are very strict constitutionalists that Trump is appointing (guys like Don Willet). He's basically going down a Federalist Society Roster to name them. And--if you're a true conservative--you should be excited about these judges.

If you're to the left, you find these people horrifying not because of their knowledge of the law, but because you think originalism is not a legitimate legal doctrine.

In the case of Gorsuch, I think it's more because Mitch McConnell literally stole the nomination from Obama when he refused to have hearings on Merrick Garland for ten F'ing months.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: jinga nation on December 19, 2017, 10:31:53 AM

So basically, you are saying that you don't believe in the entire concept of international relations or diplomacy. OOKay. I'm sure you know so much more about this than diplomats, military leaders, and power brokers dealing with people in these countries all these decades. If you want to create an us vs them situation, sure that's easy to do. If you want to have these other countries to buy into controlling and guiding their own people away from violent acts, you have given them no, actually negative motivation to do so. I'm not sure what that accomplishes, and it sure seems like you have little to no regard for innocents who are casualties on either side.


As to me knowing more than all these experts, of course I don't know more than them, but I can look at the state of the Middle East right now and see the most stable part of it is Israel, probably Saudi Arabia too.  Normalized relations with us is apparently good for you.  Kuwait seems like a pretty decent place to live, having decided to not try and kill us and just sell us oil.  It isn't that not choosing violence means we'll be nice to you and stop our negative mojo and you'll be a successful stable country, it's that if you're choosing violence everything is unstable and eventually turns to shit.

I can look at world leaders, who specifically cite not wanting to incite terrorist violence, and call them cowards and idiots besides.  The terrorist violence has never needed a reason, and if they did, that ship sailed long ago.  The sooner we stop trying to reason with people who left the negotiating table long ago, the better off we'll all be.

If you think Saudi Arabia is stable right now, I'd suggest more study: THE ECONOMIST has some pretty in-depth reporting about Crown Prince MBS's recent power plays, including imprisoning one of his wealthiest cousins. The power structure and economy there are very fragile, and the looming IPO of ARAMCO could either make them or break them. They are being drained of resources by the proxy war in Yemen. This is a country with several major threats right now.

Yup, but compare SA to its neighbors. I think Jordan is more stable, but SA is a sight better than anyone else. Maybe you can make an argument that Iran is more stable...but I think that'd be tenuous.
The Middle-East is closer to a complete breakdown than to an all-around peace treaty. All the stability you see reported by media is made-up. There's tons of micro peace-deals between warring tribes and factions. The US Military works hard to earn the trust of their counterparts, respect is destroyed by a series of tweets from POTUS. Stability is a relative term. Get your news from Vice.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 19, 2017, 10:35:01 AM
In the case of Gorsuch, I think it's more because Mitch McConnell literally stole the nomination from Obama when he refused to have hearings on Merrick Garland for ten F'ing months.

Yea, that was SUPER "originalist".

I suspect the irony is lost on most people.  Blatantly disregard the constitution in order to deprive our democracy of its legally defined judicial replacement process, in the name of protecting the constitution.

It's not too different from draining the swamp by appointing lobbyists, or helping the middle class by passing a tax bill for rich people, or prosecuting the corrupt Clinton campaign by colluding with Russia, or giving everyone great insurance by depriving 13 million people of insurance.  The entire Trump operation has been one long experiment in finding out just how blatantly you can lie to your own voters before they finally turn on you.  The consistency of his betrayals is breathtaking.  It's not even hypocrisy anymore, I think he's just trolling his supporters on purpose.

Judicial appointments are just icing on the cake.  He's telling everyone he's defending the constitution by supporting people who have made their careers by shredding it.  I wish I could be shocked.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: GuitarStv on December 19, 2017, 10:37:26 AM
Trump has moderated in many policy dimensions by moving toward mainstream conservative Republican positions. See the ... appointment of judges.

Mainstream conservative Republicans want judges appointed who have never tried a case to verdict in a courtroom, never tried a case in state or federal court, never argued a motion, or conducted a deposition on their own like Petersen?  Is being totally unqualified for a position something that conservative Republicans are really clamoring for?  If so, why?

I believe you're referencing the completely unqualified judge who's been circulating on the internet.

The "judge" you're referring to worked for the FEC and had never held the position of judge (in fact had minimal legal experience of any kind given that he had only worked as a lawyer for three years).  His appointment has been circulating on the internet because he was selected by Donald Trump for nomination as a United States District Judge . . . with what appears to be minimal knowledge of law at all.  That's kinda weird.

As you pointed out, it's not like there's a dearth of qualified people with right wing viewpoints.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: NoStacheOhio on December 19, 2017, 11:32:03 AM
Judicial appointments are just icing on the cake.  He's telling everyone he's defending the constitution by supporting people who have made their careers by shredding it.  I wish I could be shocked.

Are they though? Laws can be changed. Elected officials come and go. Federal judges are really hard to impeach.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 19, 2017, 11:53:07 AM
Judicial appointments are just icing on the cake.  He's telling everyone he's defending the constitution by supporting people who have made their careers by shredding it.  I wish I could be shocked.

Are they though? Laws can be changed. Elected officials come and go. Federal judges are really hard to impeach.

You're suggesting that undermining the constitution by appointing anti-constitutionalist judges is actually the cake, and the rest of the administration's campaign betrayals are the icing because they can theoretically be reversed by future elections?

Sure, I can see the merit in that perspective.  Unfortunately, this does not make me feel any better about the future of my country.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: NoStacheOhio on December 19, 2017, 01:39:51 PM
Judicial appointments are just icing on the cake.  He's telling everyone he's defending the constitution by supporting people who have made their careers by shredding it.  I wish I could be shocked.

Are they though? Laws can be changed. Elected officials come and go. Federal judges are really hard to impeach.

You're suggesting that undermining the constitution by appointing anti-constitutionalist judges is actually the cake, and the rest of the administration's campaign betrayals are the icing because they can theoretically be reversed by future elections?

Basically, yes. That, and banning abortion.

Quote from: sol
Sure, I can see the merit in that perspective.  Unfortunately, this does not make me feel any better about the future of my country.

Well yeah, I didn't say you should feel better about that.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Jrr85 on December 19, 2017, 01:55:49 PM
Trump has moderated in many policy dimensions by moving toward mainstream conservative Republican positions. See the ... appointment of judges.

Mainstream conservative Republicans want judges appointed who have never tried a case to verdict in a courtroom, never tried a case in state or federal court, never argued a motion, or conducted a deposition on their own like Petersen?  Is being totally unqualified for a position something that conservative Republicans are really clamoring for?  If so, why?

Do you want judges who have never had any experience other than litigation?  Particularly if their litigation is focused on one area of law? 

There is a lot to be said for having judges that have experience outside of the courtroom.  It won't take long to figure out a courtroom, but a judge that has never had any experience other than practicing litigation is never going to be able to get any practical everyday experience.  Probably doesn't matter when you are handling a car wreck case.  It could matter a lot with a criminal trial or a trial over a commercial dispute. 

That said, Peterson was particularly ill prepared for his questioning.  I assume he just choked in giving his responses.  It'd be hard to be a lawyer of any kind and not know what a motion in limine is; I think he mistakenly gave the impression he didn't know what it was by jumping to the justification of why his lack of courtroom experience should not be a deal breaker.  Similarly with the Daubert standard; my only guess there is that he was not familiar with the pronunciation and his brain froze up when he didn't recognize it immediately.  That's certainly not the first or second most common pronunciation in parts of the country.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: GuitarStv on December 19, 2017, 02:16:10 PM
Trump has moderated in many policy dimensions by moving toward mainstream conservative Republican positions. See the ... appointment of judges.

Mainstream conservative Republicans want judges appointed who have never tried a case to verdict in a courtroom, never tried a case in state or federal court, never argued a motion, or conducted a deposition on their own like Petersen?  Is being totally unqualified for a position something that conservative Republicans are really clamoring for?  If so, why?

Do you want judges who have never had any experience other than litigation?  Particularly if their litigation is focused on one area of law?

No, but that's not what I said.



It won't take long to figure out a courtroom[/b

[[Citation Needed]]

Even assuming that I agree with you that a judge will have no problem learning how to do his job while everyone in the courtroom is forced to wait for him to figure out how to do the job the president gave him, doesn't that make it look all the worse that he did so poorly under questioning?  He couldn't be bothered to spend that short period of time to prepare himself for the confirmation hearing?  Or is the argument that he gets flustered easily and can't handle pressure well (good traits for a judge to have)?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 19, 2017, 02:56:07 PM
https://www.c-span.org/video/?283224-1/republican-reaction-obama-economic-speech

Facing the worst economic crisis in generations, Republican leaders scoffed at the $1 trillion price tag for relief.

They want to pass a tax cut when the economy is fine and will add $1.5 trillion to the deficit.

This puts to bed, without a shadow of a doubt, that the modern day GOP doesn't give one s*** about deficits or fiscal responsibility.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Jrr85 on December 19, 2017, 03:38:01 PM
Trump has moderated in many policy dimensions by moving toward mainstream conservative Republican positions. See the ... appointment of judges.

Mainstream conservative Republicans want judges appointed who have never tried a case to verdict in a courtroom, never tried a case in state or federal court, never argued a motion, or conducted a deposition on their own like Petersen?  Is being totally unqualified for a position something that conservative Republicans are really clamoring for?  If so, why?

Do you want judges who have never had any experience other than litigation?  Particularly if their litigation is focused on one area of law?

No, but that's not what I said.



It won't take long to figure out a courtroom[/b

[[Citation Needed]]

I have been in a court room.  It's not rocket science.  And being able to take a deposition is not even a skill a judge needs.  The relevant question is whether the judge can resolve discovery disputes when they come up.  Much easier than taking an effective deposition. 

Also, you know how people get experience being judges?  By being judges.  That's why there are basically crash courses for attorneys becoming judges for the first time.  It's a different job than litigation. 


Even assuming that I agree with you that a judge will have no problem learning how to do his job while everyone in the courtroom is forced to wait for him to figure out how to do the job the president gave him,
  There really won't be any waiting. 

doesn't that make it look all the worse that he did so poorly under questioning?  He couldn't be bothered to spend that short period of time to prepare himself for the confirmation hearing?
I'm not sure it's a short amount of time to prepare for a hearing if you're not naturally gifted at interviews. 

  Or is the argument that he gets flustered easily and can't handle pressure well (good traits for a judge to have)?
 
The argument is that not being a litigator does not mean somebody isn't qualified to be a judge.  Nor does being a litigator necessarily qualify somebody to be a judge.    As far as getting flustered, certainly people that do not get flustered and are impervious to pressure tend to be good at a lot of things (I'm not sure getting flustered when essentially interviewing on camera for a federal judgeship qualifies as "easy"), but on the flip side, i would say it's rare for a judge to get essentially cross examined while they're on the bench. 

Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Jrr85 on December 19, 2017, 03:41:12 PM
https://www.c-span.org/video/?283224-1/republican-reaction-obama-economic-speech

Facing the worst economic crisis in generations, Republican leaders scoffed at the $1 trillion price tag for relief.

They want to pass a tax cut when the economy is fine and will add $1.5 trillion to the deficit.

This puts to bed, without a shadow of a doubt, that the modern day GOP doesn't give one s*** about deficits or fiscal responsibility.

Not that republicans are fiscally responsible, but there is a huge difference between the government using a trillion dollars worth of resources versus a government taking 1.5 Trillion dollars less out of the economy, and there's nothing logically inconsistent about being against one but for the other. 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 19, 2017, 04:21:39 PM
Not that republicans are fiscally responsible, but there is a huge difference between the government using a trillion dollars worth of resources versus a government taking 1.5 Trillion dollars less out of the economy, and there's nothing logically inconsistent about being against one but for the other.

You clearly don't understand how money works.

In both cases, the plan created debt that will have to be managed and repaid in the future.  In one case they gave the money created by that debt to failing (but too big to fail) US businesses, in the other they are giving it to thriving successful businesses.  Seems very little difference to me.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: ncornilsen on December 19, 2017, 06:18:39 PM
Not that republicans are fiscally responsible, but there is a huge difference between the government using a trillion dollars worth of resources versus a government taking 1.5 Trillion dollars less out of the economy, and there's nothing logically inconsistent about being against one but for the other.

You clearly don't understand how money works.

In both cases, the plan created debt that will have to be managed and repaid in the future.  In one case they gave the money created by that debt to failing (but too big to fail) US businesses, in the other they are giving it to thriving successful businesses.  Seems very little difference to me.


I fully understand that a reduction in taxes from some assumed baseline, looks exactly like an expense/creates the same debt as an actual expense. But I have a hard time with that supposition... as you could have that assumed baseline be 100% of income... then any relief is 'creating debt that has to be managed."

There's a difference between "Here's 1trn we're printing up and handing to you"   and "We're not going to collect $1trn from you."  The failure here is that nobody is curtailing the spending side. That's where criticism is due, I believe.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Jrr85 on December 19, 2017, 09:33:13 PM
Not that republicans are fiscally responsible, but there is a huge difference between the government using a trillion dollars worth of resources versus a government taking 1.5 Trillion dollars less out of the economy, and there's nothing logically inconsistent about being against one but for the other.

You clearly don't understand how money works.

In both cases, the plan created debt that will have to be managed and repaid in the future.  In one case they gave the money created by that debt to failing (but too big to fail) US businesses, in the other they are giving it to thriving successful businesses.  Seems very little difference to me.

What'ss funny is, I actually did have a mistake in my post, but you didn't even catch it because you dont understand enough to recognize it.  its no where near as bad and obviously wrong as your post. But still pretty obvious and one I should have caught when I typed it out.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: shenlong55 on December 20, 2017, 06:28:31 AM


https://www.c-span.org/video/?283224-1/republican-reaction-obama-economic-speech

Facing the worst economic crisis in generations, Republican leaders scoffed at the $1 trillion price tag for relief.

They want to pass a tax cut when the economy is fine and will add $1.5 trillion to the deficit.

This puts to bed, without a shadow of a doubt, that the modern day GOP doesn't give one s*** about deficits or fiscal responsibility.

Not that republicans are fiscally responsible, but there is a huge difference between the government using a trillion dollars worth of resources versus a government taking 1.5 Trillion dollars less out of the economy, and there's nothing logically inconsistent about being against one but for the other.

Could you explain the differences to me as if it were not obvious please?

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: talltexan on December 20, 2017, 07:22:28 AM
Does anyone else feel like this thread has drifted very far from its initial topic?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Jrr85 on December 20, 2017, 08:55:59 AM


https://www.c-span.org/video/?283224-1/republican-reaction-obama-economic-speech

Facing the worst economic crisis in generations, Republican leaders scoffed at the $1 trillion price tag for relief.

They want to pass a tax cut when the economy is fine and will add $1.5 trillion to the deficit.

This puts to bed, without a shadow of a doubt, that the modern day GOP doesn't give one s*** about deficits or fiscal responsibility.

Not that republicans are fiscally responsible, but there is a huge difference between the government using a trillion dollars worth of resources versus a government taking 1.5 Trillion dollars less out of the economy, and there's nothing logically inconsistent about being against one but for the other.

Could you explain the differences to me as if it were not obvious please?

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

Again, my original statement was not exactly accurate, as the stimulus didn't use a trillion dollars of resources.  It did use some resources, but it mostly just redistributed a lot of money.  That can be better or worse than them actually using the resources depending on what they are used on and in the case of redistribution, what they are incentivizing. (e.g., looking at it from a societal wealth standpoint, if they just did interstate highways, that'd probably be better than redistributing it.  Alternatively, if they threw it all at the high speed rail planned for California, that'd probably be worse than simply just redistributing all of it based on political clout).

On the flipside, that $1.5 trillion dollars the government would have taken if not for the tax bill, will generally be spent on things people want, not allocated based on political calculations and power.  (A chunk of it will go to things mandated by the government or to excess rents firms get because of crony capitalism, but luckily that's no where near the majority, yet).  If you are skeptical of central planning and/or believe in public choice theory, that is a huge, huge improvement. 

 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: shenlong55 on December 20, 2017, 09:37:20 AM


https://www.c-span.org/video/?283224-1/republican-reaction-obama-economic-speech

Facing the worst economic crisis in generations, Republican leaders scoffed at the $1 trillion price tag for relief.

They want to pass a tax cut when the economy is fine and will add $1.5 trillion to the deficit.

This puts to bed, without a shadow of a doubt, that the modern day GOP doesn't give one s*** about deficits or fiscal responsibility.

Not that republicans are fiscally responsible, but there is a huge difference between the government using a trillion dollars worth of resources versus a government taking 1.5 Trillion dollars less out of the economy, and there's nothing logically inconsistent about being against one but for the other.

Could you explain the differences to me as if it were not obvious please?

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

Again, my original statement was not exactly accurate, as the stimulus didn't use a trillion dollars of resources.  It did use some resources, but it mostly just redistributed a lot of money.  That can be better or worse than them actually using the resources depending on what they are used on and in the case of redistribution, what they are incentivizing. (e.g., looking at it from a societal wealth standpoint, if they just did interstate highways, that'd probably be better than redistributing it.  Alternatively, if they threw it all at the high speed rail planned for California, that'd probably be worse than simply just redistributing all of it based on political clout).

On the flipside, that $1.5 trillion dollars the government would have taken if not for the tax bill, will generally be spent on things people want, not allocated based on political calculations and power.  (A chunk of it will go to things mandated by the government or to excess rents firms get because of crony capitalism, but luckily that's no where near the majority, yet).  If you are skeptical of central planning and/or believe in public choice theory, that is a huge, huge improvement.

So, I get that, from a conservative perspective, allowing 'the people' to spend X amount of money is better than 'the government' spending X amount of money.  But how does that change the effect on the national debt/deficit?  It just seems to me like your essentially saying you don't mind the debt/deficit increasing, as long it's increased in service to your priorities.

I'm just finding it hard to take conservative complaints about the debt/deficit seriously when the first major legislation they attempt to pass, after eight years of loudly complaining about it, is expected to significantly increase it.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: MrMoogle on December 20, 2017, 11:57:27 AM

So, I get that, from a conservative perspective, allowing 'the people' to spend X amount of money is better than 'the government' spending X amount of money.  But how does that change the effect on the national debt/deficit?  It just seems to me like your essentially saying you don't mind the debt/deficit increasing, as long it's increased in service to your priorities.

I'm just finding it hard to take conservative complaints about the debt/deficit seriously when the first major legislation they attempt to pass, after eight years of loudly complaining about it, is expected to significantly increase it.
Either way it's still horrible for the debt/deficit.  As a conservative, I'm pretty pissed about it.  I had a debate about it at work with a Republican who was trying to convince everyone it's good for the deficit.

Theoretically, it's possible that if you reduce taxes by $1, it doesn't actually increase the debt by a whole $1, because what is saved, is then spent then taxed.  In practice it's nearly impossible to measure the difference though.  You can lower rates by not affecting the debt, if you combine it with removing tax deductions, lower spending, or something like that, but that's not what's going on here.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: ncornilsen on December 20, 2017, 01:01:55 PM

So, I get that, from a conservative perspective, allowing 'the people' to spend X amount of money is better than 'the government' spending X amount of money.  But how does that change the effect on the national debt/deficit?  It just seems to me like your essentially saying you don't mind the debt/deficit increasing, as long it's increased in service to your priorities.

I'm just finding it hard to take conservative complaints about the debt/deficit seriously when the first major legislation they attempt to pass, after eight years of loudly complaining about it, is expected to significantly increase it.
Either way it's still horrible for the debt/deficit.  As a conservative, I'm pretty pissed about it.  I had a debate about it at work with a Republican who was trying to convince everyone it's good for the deficit.

Theoretically, it's possible that if you reduce taxes by $1, it doesn't actually increase the debt by a whole $1, because what is saved, is then spent then taxed.  In practice it's nearly impossible to measure the difference though.  You can lower rates by not affecting the debt, if you combine it with removing tax deductions, lower spending, or something like that, but that's not what's going on here.

It might not be horrible for the debt/deficit either, depending how much you think the reduced taxes will stimulate economic activity, or widen the tax-base. It's not inconcievable that reducing taxes increases disposable income, which increases spending -> more demain -> employment -> more salarys to collect taxes from and less spending on entitlement programs.

 I think the cuts in the case of this tax reform are a bit too focused on higher incomes and you'd get more economic growth if the taxes were more focused on the middle class.  This tax bill should have come with a spending decrease to make it not add to the debt.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Jrr85 on December 20, 2017, 01:19:27 PM


https://www.c-span.org/video/?283224-1/republican-reaction-obama-economic-speech

Facing the worst economic crisis in generations, Republican leaders scoffed at the $1 trillion price tag for relief.

They want to pass a tax cut when the economy is fine and will add $1.5 trillion to the deficit.

This puts to bed, without a shadow of a doubt, that the modern day GOP doesn't give one s*** about deficits or fiscal responsibility.

Not that republicans are fiscally responsible, but there is a huge difference between the government using a trillion dollars worth of resources versus a government taking 1.5 Trillion dollars less out of the economy, and there's nothing logically inconsistent about being against one but for the other.

Could you explain the differences to me as if it were not obvious please?

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

Again, my original statement was not exactly accurate, as the stimulus didn't use a trillion dollars of resources.  It did use some resources, but it mostly just redistributed a lot of money.  That can be better or worse than them actually using the resources depending on what they are used on and in the case of redistribution, what they are incentivizing. (e.g., looking at it from a societal wealth standpoint, if they just did interstate highways, that'd probably be better than redistributing it.  Alternatively, if they threw it all at the high speed rail planned for California, that'd probably be worse than simply just redistributing all of it based on political clout).

On the flipside, that $1.5 trillion dollars the government would have taken if not for the tax bill, will generally be spent on things people want, not allocated based on political calculations and power.  (A chunk of it will go to things mandated by the government or to excess rents firms get because of crony capitalism, but luckily that's no where near the majority, yet).  If you are skeptical of central planning and/or believe in public choice theory, that is a huge, huge improvement.

So, I get that, from a conservative perspective, allowing 'the people' to spend X amount of money is better than 'the government' spending X amount of money.  But how does that change the effect on the national debt/deficit?  It just seems to me like your essentially saying you don't mind the debt/deficit increasing, as long it's increased in service to your priorities.

I'm just finding it hard to take conservative complaints about the debt/deficit seriously when the first major legislation they attempt to pass, after eight years of loudly complaining about it, is expected to significantly increase it.

There are two things you are missing.  The most important is that even if you agree that not taking money from other people by definition increases the deficit, it's still two different calculations as far as cost benefits go.  Increasing the deficit for the government to spend another trillion dollars, whether it's actually spending resources or just redistributing dollars, is going to generally result in well less than a trillion dollars of benefit, at least measured by what people would pay for it voluntarily (and talking about any developed country, where the government revenue is way, way past what is necessary to provide public goods). 

On the flip side, if you let people spend 1.5 trillion dollars, they are generally going to end up being somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.5 trillion dollars richer (or really probably much more when you account for the gains from trade and investment).   

So even buying the argument that not taking somebody's money "cost money", it's perfectly logical to think a deficit for not taking money is acceptable and a deficit from spending (or redistributing) more money is not. 

Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: shenlong55 on December 20, 2017, 01:42:13 PM
So, I get that, from a conservative perspective, allowing 'the people' to spend X amount of money is better than 'the government' spending X amount of money.  But how does that change the effect on the national debt/deficit?  It just seems to me like your essentially saying you don't mind the debt/deficit increasing, as long it's increased in service to your priorities.

I'm just finding it hard to take conservative complaints about the debt/deficit seriously when the first major legislation they attempt to pass, after eight years of loudly complaining about it, is expected to significantly increase it.

There are two things you are missing.  The most important is that even if you agree that not taking money from other people by definition increases the deficit, it's still two different calculations as far as cost benefits go.  Increasing the deficit for the government to spend another trillion dollars, whether it's actually spending resources or just redistributing dollars, is going to generally result in well less than a trillion dollars of benefit, at least measured by what people would pay for it voluntarily (and talking about any developed country, where the government revenue is way, way past what is necessary to provide public goods). 

On the flip side, if you let people spend 1.5 trillion dollars, they are generally going to end up being somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.5 trillion dollars richer (or really probably much more when you account for the gains from trade and investment).   

So even buying the argument that not taking somebody's money "cost money", it's perfectly logical to think a deficit for not taking money is acceptable and a deficit from spending (or redistributing) more money is not.

Sure.  But it's also perfectly logical to think that a deficit for stimulating the economy is acceptable and a deficit for lower tax rates during good times is not acceptable.  So why should I buy your argument and not the other?

Honestly, I don't think the deficit is an issue currently so it's not something that I'm personally holding against this bill.  It's just that I'm less likely now to believe conservatives in the future when they say that the reason liberals shouldn't be allowed to pass their proposed legislation is because it increases the deficit, since what they seem to mean is more like 'it increase the deficit for something that I don't agree with.'  Which really boils down to 'I don't agree with this' rather than any actual concern about the deficit.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: MrMoogle on December 20, 2017, 01:53:00 PM

So, I get that, from a conservative perspective, allowing 'the people' to spend X amount of money is better than 'the government' spending X amount of money.  But how does that change the effect on the national debt/deficit?  It just seems to me like your essentially saying you don't mind the debt/deficit increasing, as long it's increased in service to your priorities.

I'm just finding it hard to take conservative complaints about the debt/deficit seriously when the first major legislation they attempt to pass, after eight years of loudly complaining about it, is expected to significantly increase it.
Either way it's still horrible for the debt/deficit.  As a conservative, I'm pretty pissed about it.  I had a debate about it at work with a Republican who was trying to convince everyone it's good for the deficit.

Theoretically, it's possible that if you reduce taxes by $1, it doesn't actually increase the debt by a whole $1, because what is saved, is then spent then taxed.  In practice it's nearly impossible to measure the difference though.  You can lower rates by not affecting the debt, if you combine it with removing tax deductions, lower spending, or something like that, but that's not what's going on here.

It might not be horrible for the debt/deficit either, depending how much you think the reduced taxes will stimulate economic activity, or widen the tax-base. It's not inconcievable that reducing taxes increases disposable income, which increases spending -> more demain -> employment -> more salarys to collect taxes from and less spending on entitlement programs.

 I think the cuts in the case of this tax reform are a bit too focused on higher incomes and you'd get more economic growth if the taxes were more focused on the middle class.  This tax bill should have come with a spending decrease to make it not add to the debt.
Do you have a real life example of where this has happened in the US?  Where say, removing $1 in taxes only dropped the deficit by $0.75?  I remember looking years ago, and what I found was like $1 less in taxes dropped the deficit by $0.98, with $0.02 uncertainty (not the actual numbers, but something similar to this). 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: MrMoogle on December 20, 2017, 02:05:46 PM
Sure.  But it's also perfectly logical to think that a deficit for stimulating the economy is acceptable and a deficit for lower tax rates during good times is not acceptable.  So why should I buy your argument and not the other?

Honestly, I don't think the deficit is an issue currently so it's not something that I'm personally holding against this bill.  It's just that I'm less likely now to believe conservatives in the future when they say that the reason liberals shouldn't be allowed to pass their proposed legislation is because it increases the deficit, since what they seem to mean is more like 'it increase the deficit for something that I don't agree with.'  Which really boils down to 'I don't agree with this' rather than any actual concern about the deficit.
I'm sure some said that, "This bill is not worth the increase in deficit," which translates to your, "I don't agree with this."  That message could easily get truncated to, "Don't do it because it increases the deficit" by the media.  I don't really know.  I do know some news stations at the time were whining that the debt (depending on how it's measured) was > 100% of GDP, which would indicate it is mostly a deficit/debt problem.

I personally think the debt is too high.  A government having high debt is great, until some disaster, whether it's natural or a war, drops the GDP and makes the debt run out of control.  After 2008/09 banks were required to do stress testing, so one bank crashing wouldn't crash the whole sector.  I wish the government was required to do something similar.  Granted something would have to be fairly major to break the US.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: crazyworld on December 20, 2017, 02:16:54 PM
Yup, when democrats want to increase the deficit for infrastructure spending (which would create local US jobs), Republicans are all boo-hiss, not on my watch, clutching their pearls.

When they want to give their wealthy donors giant tax cuts, oh yeah, trickle down economics, yessir.

Please don;t try to explain to me this whole tax bill was for the greater good. It was most certainly not.  I moved here from a third world country.  Whats going on in the US right now, is the same script I grew up seeing (and still see when I travel back).  What amazes me is how quickly the entire institutional framework crumbled.  Maybe its a natural effect of any nation growing rich & powerful, nowhere to go but down. 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: ncornilsen on December 20, 2017, 04:51:32 PM
Yup, when democrats want to increase the deficit for infrastructure spending (which would create local US jobs), Republicans are all boo-hiss, not on my watch, clutching their pearls.

When they want to give their wealthy donors giant tax cuts, oh yeah, trickle down economics, yessir.

Please don;t try to explain to me this whole tax bill was for the greater good. It was most certainly not.  I moved here from a third world country.  Whats going on in the US right now, is the same script I grew up seeing (and still see when I travel back).  What amazes me is how quickly the entire institutional framework crumbled.  Maybe its a natural effect of any nation growing rich & powerful, nowhere to go but down.

In my experience, democrats do not spend on infastructure.... they spend on things that benefit thier wealthy union donors while doing little to generate any additional utility for those dollars.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: crazyworld on December 20, 2017, 07:25:55 PM
Yup, when democrats want to increase the deficit for infrastructure spending (which would create local US jobs), Republicans are all boo-hiss, not on my watch, clutching their pearls.

When they want to give their wealthy donors giant tax cuts, oh yeah, trickle down economics, yessir.

Please don;t try to explain to me this whole tax bill was for the greater good. It was most certainly not.  I moved here from a third world country.  Whats going on in the US right now, is the same script I grew up seeing (and still see when I travel back).  What amazes me is how quickly the entire institutional framework crumbled.  Maybe its a natural effect of any nation growing rich & powerful, nowhere to go but down.

In my experience, democrats do not spend on infastructure.... they spend on things that benefit thier wealthy union donors while doing little to generate any additional utility for those dollars.

Wasn't that what the Republicans fought tooth & nail Obama over ? (amongst many other things)
Oh, and for good measure, they are taking out the healthcare mandate, ie, ACA in jeopardy, as well as the CHIP program is unfunded.  The richest country in the world, ladies & gentlemen...
And do I hear calls from Fox news about FBI/Robert Mueller being "corrupt", so they can take the heat off their corrupt & depraved leader?  In a proud country, with the best democratic ideals, that the rest of the world should emulate...
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Jrr85 on December 21, 2017, 08:01:34 AM
So, I get that, from a conservative perspective, allowing 'the people' to spend X amount of money is better than 'the government' spending X amount of money.  But how does that change the effect on the national debt/deficit?  It just seems to me like your essentially saying you don't mind the debt/deficit increasing, as long it's increased in service to your priorities.

I'm just finding it hard to take conservative complaints about the debt/deficit seriously when the first major legislation they attempt to pass, after eight years of loudly complaining about it, is expected to significantly increase it.

There are two things you are missing.  The most important is that even if you agree that not taking money from other people by definition increases the deficit, it's still two different calculations as far as cost benefits go.  Increasing the deficit for the government to spend another trillion dollars, whether it's actually spending resources or just redistributing dollars, is going to generally result in well less than a trillion dollars of benefit, at least measured by what people would pay for it voluntarily (and talking about any developed country, where the government revenue is way, way past what is necessary to provide public goods). 

On the flip side, if you let people spend 1.5 trillion dollars, they are generally going to end up being somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.5 trillion dollars richer (or really probably much more when you account for the gains from trade and investment).   

So even buying the argument that not taking somebody's money "cost money", it's perfectly logical to think a deficit for not taking money is acceptable and a deficit from spending (or redistributing) more money is not.

Sure.  But it's also perfectly logical to think that a deficit for stimulating the economy is acceptable and a deficit for lower tax rates during good times is not acceptable.  So why should I buy your argument and not the other?
  You can buy either argument you want.  I was just pointing out that the posters clutching their pearls and claiming hypocrisy were either being dense or deliberately dishonest. 


Honestly, I don't think the deficit is an issue currently so it's not something that I'm personally holding against this bill.  It's just that I'm less likely now to believe conservatives in the future when they say that the reason liberals shouldn't be allowed to pass their proposed legislation is because it increases the deficit, since what they seem to mean is more like 'it increase the deficit for something that I don't agree with.'  Which really boils down to 'I don't agree with this' rather than any actual concern about the deficit.
  I think it's more "i'm against it because it increases deficit for something that's not worth increasing the deficit."  Or alternatively, we already have a huge spending problem and are not going to meet our "promises" with respect to future entitlements.  We don't need to add to our spending problem.   
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 21, 2017, 08:10:06 AM
9 million kids without healthcare - CHIP costs $14 billion to fund.  Orrin Hatch says, "We don't have the money."

800,000 American DREAMers legal status up in the air as Congress sits on DACA.

Republicans:
"Hey, let's celebrate this $1 trillion tax cut, nearly all of which benefits the top 1%."

Idiots.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: shenlong55 on December 21, 2017, 08:27:12 AM
So, I get that, from a conservative perspective, allowing 'the people' to spend X amount of money is better than 'the government' spending X amount of money.  But how does that change the effect on the national debt/deficit?  It just seems to me like your essentially saying you don't mind the debt/deficit increasing, as long it's increased in service to your priorities.

I'm just finding it hard to take conservative complaints about the debt/deficit seriously when the first major legislation they attempt to pass, after eight years of loudly complaining about it, is expected to significantly increase it.

There are two things you are missing.  The most important is that even if you agree that not taking money from other people by definition increases the deficit, it's still two different calculations as far as cost benefits go.  Increasing the deficit for the government to spend another trillion dollars, whether it's actually spending resources or just redistributing dollars, is going to generally result in well less than a trillion dollars of benefit, at least measured by what people would pay for it voluntarily (and talking about any developed country, where the government revenue is way, way past what is necessary to provide public goods). 

On the flip side, if you let people spend 1.5 trillion dollars, they are generally going to end up being somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.5 trillion dollars richer (or really probably much more when you account for the gains from trade and investment).   

So even buying the argument that not taking somebody's money "cost money", it's perfectly logical to think a deficit for not taking money is acceptable and a deficit from spending (or redistributing) more money is not.

Sure.  But it's also perfectly logical to think that a deficit for stimulating the economy is acceptable and a deficit for lower tax rates during good times is not acceptable.  So why should I buy your argument and not the other?
  You can buy either argument you want.  I was just pointing out that the posters clutching their pearls and claiming hypocrisy were either being dense or deliberately dishonest. 


Honestly, I don't think the deficit is an issue currently so it's not something that I'm personally holding against this bill.  It's just that I'm less likely now to believe conservatives in the future when they say that the reason liberals shouldn't be allowed to pass their proposed legislation is because it increases the deficit, since what they seem to mean is more like 'it increase the deficit for something that I don't agree with.'  Which really boils down to 'I don't agree with this' rather than any actual concern about the deficit.
  I think it's more "i'm against it because it increases deficit for something that's not worth increasing the deficit."  Or alternatively, we already have a huge spending problem and are not going to meet our "promises" with respect to future entitlements.  We don't need to add to our spending problem.

Yeah, the problem is that I can make the same argument against this bill.  I don't think giving rich people and corporations tax breaks during a time when the nation is doing well economically is worth increasing the deficit.  I'm against it because it increases the deficit for something that's not worth increasing the deficit for.  Or alternatively, we already have a huge funding problem and are not going to meet our "promises" with respect to future entitlements.  We don't need to add to our funding problem.

I mean, please correct me if I'm wrong, but it still just seems to me like your okay with increasing the deficit for the things that you think are important but not for what others may consider important.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Jrr85 on December 21, 2017, 09:29:21 AM
So, I get that, from a conservative perspective, allowing 'the people' to spend X amount of money is better than 'the government' spending X amount of money.  But how does that change the effect on the national debt/deficit?  It just seems to me like your essentially saying you don't mind the debt/deficit increasing, as long it's increased in service to your priorities.

I'm just finding it hard to take conservative complaints about the debt/deficit seriously when the first major legislation they attempt to pass, after eight years of loudly complaining about it, is expected to significantly increase it.

There are two things you are missing.  The most important is that even if you agree that not taking money from other people by definition increases the deficit, it's still two different calculations as far as cost benefits go.  Increasing the deficit for the government to spend another trillion dollars, whether it's actually spending resources or just redistributing dollars, is going to generally result in well less than a trillion dollars of benefit, at least measured by what people would pay for it voluntarily (and talking about any developed country, where the government revenue is way, way past what is necessary to provide public goods). 

On the flip side, if you let people spend 1.5 trillion dollars, they are generally going to end up being somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.5 trillion dollars richer (or really probably much more when you account for the gains from trade and investment).   

So even buying the argument that not taking somebody's money "cost money", it's perfectly logical to think a deficit for not taking money is acceptable and a deficit from spending (or redistributing) more money is not.

Sure.  But it's also perfectly logical to think that a deficit for stimulating the economy is acceptable and a deficit for lower tax rates during good times is not acceptable.  So why should I buy your argument and not the other?
  You can buy either argument you want.  I was just pointing out that the posters clutching their pearls and claiming hypocrisy were either being dense or deliberately dishonest. 


Honestly, I don't think the deficit is an issue currently so it's not something that I'm personally holding against this bill.  It's just that I'm less likely now to believe conservatives in the future when they say that the reason liberals shouldn't be allowed to pass their proposed legislation is because it increases the deficit, since what they seem to mean is more like 'it increase the deficit for something that I don't agree with.'  Which really boils down to 'I don't agree with this' rather than any actual concern about the deficit.
  I think it's more "i'm against it because it increases deficit for something that's not worth increasing the deficit."  Or alternatively, we already have a huge spending problem and are not going to meet our "promises" with respect to future entitlements.  We don't need to add to our spending problem.

Yeah, the problem is that I can make the same argument against this bill.  I don't think giving rich people and corporations tax breaks during a time when the nation is doing well economically is worth increasing the deficit.  I'm against it because it increases the deficit for something that's not worth increasing the deficit for.  Or alternatively, we already have a huge funding problem and are not going to meet our "promises" with respect to future entitlements.  We don't need to add to our funding problem.

I mean, please correct me if I'm wrong, but it still just seems to me like your okay with increasing the deficit for the things that you think are important but not for what others may consider important.

I think that statement would more or less true for everybody that thinks the deficit is meaningful?  Or at least if you add "that are not things I think are important" to the end? 





 

Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: shenlong55 on December 21, 2017, 12:03:52 PM
I mean, please correct me if I'm wrong, but it still just seems to me like your okay with increasing the deficit for the things that you think are important but not for what others may consider important.

I think that statement would more or less true for everybody that thinks the deficit is meaningful?  Or at least if you add "that are not things I think are important" to the end?

That may very well be true.  But everybody thinking that way does not make it right, nor does it make it non-hypocritical.  It also may be why our debt continues to increase regardless of the party in power.  I mean, why worry about the deficit when the legislation I'm working on is super important and will make America great again/bring about change we can believe in, right?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: startbyservingothers on December 21, 2017, 01:30:14 PM
I read a couple pages of the thread, but not the entire thing.  As usual I'm impressed by the ability of people here to have an intellectual conversation about something this controversial without devolving into name-calling, etc.

I have more leanings toward 3rd / 4th party so I wasn't the target of this thread, but I'll throw my thought process in anyways.
..
Note the numbers below organize my thoughts.  They do not correspond to the numbers in the Op thread:


1.  I'm in a strong republican state.  Essentially there is a near zero likelihood that my vote will have any effect on my state's vote, much less the overall election outcome.

2.  I don't like the current 2 party system.  The lousy choice of candidates in this last election shows just how bad the problem has gotten.

3.  Therefore I feel the best use of my vote is to vote for a 3rd party candidate.  The more people that vote 3rd party the more viable the option actually comes.

4.  I voted for Jill Stein since Green Party aligns most with my values.  (Despite disagreeing that we should just wipe out student loan debt and make college free.  -  I would love these ideas were I younger and could benefit from them.)

5.  I also really like Gary Johnson.  I felt he was the best overall candidate even though I disagreed with the Environmental side of his platform.   I would have voted for Gary Johnson had I felt there was any chance of him gaining a significant portion of the poplar vote.  (3 above explains my reasoning.)


Edit to add:  Just noticed shenlong55 is also in Kentucky.  Awesome.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Jrr85 on December 21, 2017, 02:06:00 PM
I mean, please correct me if I'm wrong, but it still just seems to me like your okay with increasing the deficit for the things that you think are important but not for what others may consider important.

I think that statement would more or less true for everybody that thinks the deficit is meaningful?  Or at least if you add "that are not things I think are important" to the end?

That may very well be true.  But everybody thinking that way does not make it right, nor does it make it non-hypocritical.  It also may be why our debt continues to increase regardless of the party in power.  I mean, why worry about the deficit when the legislation I'm working on is super important and will make America great again/bring about change we can believe in, right?

Well, the alternative is to think the deficit is the only thing that matters.  That would probably be an improvement if our politicians acted like that now, but probably not during WWII, WWI, Civil War, and probably some others?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: shenlong55 on December 22, 2017, 10:13:55 AM
I mean, please correct me if I'm wrong, but it still just seems to me like your okay with increasing the deficit for the things that you think are important but not for what others may consider important.

I think that statement would more or less true for everybody that thinks the deficit is meaningful?  Or at least if you add "that are not things I think are important" to the end?

That may very well be true.  But everybody thinking that way does not make it right, nor does it make it non-hypocritical.  It also may be why our debt continues to increase regardless of the party in power.  I mean, why worry about the deficit when the legislation I'm working on is super important and will make America great again/bring about change we can believe in, right?

Well, the alternative is to think the deficit is the only thing that matters.  That would probably be an improvement if our politicians acted like that now, but probably not during WWII, WWI, Civil War, and probably some others?

I get what your saying but here's the thing...

Conservatives believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.
Liberals believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.

Do you get how this can look hypocritical to those without the exact same views as yours?  The only difference I see is that conservatives have been whining about liberal policies increasing the deficit for the past eight years.  Based on that rhetoric I would expect them to place a higher priority on it once they gain power.  They haven't though, so it gives the appearance that they only care about the deficit when it comes to liberal policies.  Maybe instead of worrying about the deficit only when it's the opposition in power we should focus on decreasing the impact on the deficit when our own party is in power and just debate the actual policy when the opposition is in power.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: bacchi on December 22, 2017, 10:46:56 AM
Conservatives believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.
Liberals believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.

Most of the liberals I know would love to decrease the deficit (in boom times). A lot of the spending decrease just has to come from one of the elephants in the room, which is taboo to most Republicans.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: wenchsenior on December 22, 2017, 10:59:15 AM
Conservatives believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.
Liberals believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.

Most of the liberals I know would love to decrease the deficit (in boom times). A lot of the spending decrease just has to come from one of the elephants in the room, which is taboo to most Republicans.

Exactly. 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: ncornilsen on December 22, 2017, 12:36:27 PM
Conservatives believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.
Liberals believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.

Most of the liberals I know would love to decrease the deficit (in boom times). A lot of the spending decrease just has to come from one of the elephants in the room, which is taboo to most Republicans.

Exactly.

You can change the name of the parties around and have it be just as accurate.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 22, 2017, 12:47:02 PM
Conservatives believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.
Liberals believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.

Most of the liberals I know would love to decrease the deficit (in boom times). A lot of the spending decrease just has to come from one of the elephants in the room, which is taboo to most Republicans.

Exactly.

You can change the name of the parties around and have it be just as accurate.

We are in an expanding economy and Republicans, and only Republicans, just passed a tax cut that will add $1.5 trillion to the deficit.

So, no you can't.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: ncornilsen on December 22, 2017, 01:51:43 PM
Conservatives believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.
Liberals believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.

Most of the liberals I know would love to decrease the deficit (in boom times). A lot of the spending decrease just has to come from one of the elephants in the room, which is taboo to most Republicans.

Exactly.

You can change the name of the parties around and have it be just as accurate.

We are in an expanding economy and Republicans, and only Republicans, just passed a tax cut that will add $1.5 trillion to the deficit.

So, no you can't.
Minor point: that's 1.5 trillion over ten years. $150bn was added to the yearly deficit.

I thought we were talking about your average, day to day liberal/republican?
Either way, Obama ran very similar deficits to Bush when you ignore the TARP/financial crisis stuff, and didn't do anything to reduce the deficits. Democrats didn't pass any spending cuts.

Republicans increase the deficit by taking less from the people.
Democrats increase the deficit by taking more from the people, and SPENDING even more yet.


Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: bacchi on December 22, 2017, 02:28:18 PM
Republicans increase the deficit by taking less from the people.
Democrats increase the deficit by taking more from the people, and SPENDING even more yet.

Hahahahaha. Good one. *wipes tears* If you think Republicans don't spend like drunken sailors given the chance, ask John McCain.

http://archive.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/12/01/mccain_says_congress_spends_like_drunken_sailor/

So your comment is more accurate as,

"Republicans increase the deficit by taking less from the people, and SPENDING even more yet."

But, yes, each party has their taboo elephants.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: GuitarStv on December 22, 2017, 02:37:44 PM
Republicans increase the deficit by taking less from the people.
Democrats increase the deficit by taking more from the people, and SPENDING even more yet.

Hahahahaha. Good one. *wipes tears* If you think Republicans don't spend like drunken sailors given the chance, ask John McCain.

http://archive.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/12/01/mccain_says_congress_spends_like_drunken_sailor/

So your comment is more accurate as,

"Republicans increase the deficit by taking less from the people, and SPENDING even more yet."

But, yes, each party has their taboo elephants.

The poors aren't people though, only the rich are.  If you read the response with that fact in mind, it actually makes a lot of sense.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: libertarian4321 on December 22, 2017, 04:56:00 PM
Republicans increase the deficit by taking less from the people.
Democrats increase the deficit by taking more from the people, and SPENDING even more yet.

Hahahahaha. Good one. *wipes tears* If you think Republicans don't spend like drunken sailors given the chance, ask John McCain.

http://archive.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/12/01/mccain_says_congress_spends_like_drunken_sailor/

So your comment is more accurate as,

"Republicans increase the deficit by taking less from the people, and SPENDING even more yet."

But, yes, each party has their taboo elephants.

Yup, both major parties routinely waste our tax dollars- they just waste them differently.

That's one of the reasons I don't support either of the big government major parties.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Dabnasty on December 22, 2017, 08:45:05 PM
Republicans increase the deficit by taking less from the people.
Democrats increase the deficit by taking more from the people, and SPENDING even more yet.

Hahahahaha. Good one. *wipes tears* If you think Republicans don't spend like drunken sailors given the chance, ask John McCain.

http://archive.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/12/01/mccain_says_congress_spends_like_drunken_sailor/

So your comment is more accurate as,

"Republicans increase the deficit by taking less from the people, and SPENDING even more yet."

But, yes, each party has their taboo elephants.

Yup, both major parties routinely waste our tax dollars- they just waste them differently.

That's one of the reasons I don't support either of the big government major parties.

So which party do you support?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 22, 2017, 09:26:30 PM
So which party do you support?

Maybe he supports candidates for office, instead of parties?

That's been the easy out for me.  I definitely disagree with some of the party positions, but those positions are not shared by every candidate.  It's not uncommon to find a candidate you can support, even if they belong to a party you're not very happy with.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: t185 on December 23, 2017, 04:52:21 AM
To the OP's original question.
No.
God help us if Hillary would or won
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: NoStacheOhio on December 23, 2017, 05:39:19 AM
God help us if Hillary would or won

Because she would've been a moderately competent, unpopular technocrat who got nothing done? *clutches pearls*
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Kris on December 23, 2017, 07:25:46 AM
God help us if Hillary would or won

Because she would've been a moderately competent, unpopular technocrat who got nothing done? *clutches pearls*

I think he’s talking about the child porn pizza ring she would have installed in the White House.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Gin1984 on December 23, 2017, 06:41:29 PM
So which party do you support?

Maybe he supports candidates for office, instead of parties?

That's been the easy out for me.  I definitely disagree with some of the party positions, but those positions are not shared by every candidate.  It's not uncommon to find a candidate you can support, even if they belong to a party you're not very happy with.
Except the last tax bill was voted completely on party lines, and for the last decade the GOP has evolved to expect that from their elected officials.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Dabnasty on December 23, 2017, 06:46:51 PM
So which party do you support?

Maybe he supports candidates for office, instead of parties?

That's been the easy out for me.  I definitely disagree with some of the party positions, but those positions are not shared by every candidate.  It's not uncommon to find a candidate you can support, even if they belong to a party you're not very happy with.

Sorry, forgot the /s (see poster's name). /s

I absolutely agree with the rational that you should vote for a candidate and not a party. I've argued that point to many a person who tells me that voting third party is a waste. My opinion is that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that's given us the two party system.

ETA: Oh, and Kris's signature
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Kris on December 23, 2017, 07:26:09 PM
So which party do you support?

Maybe he supports candidates for office, instead of parties?

That's been the easy out for me.  I definitely disagree with some of the party positions, but those positions are not shared by every candidate.  It's not uncommon to find a candidate you can support, even if they belong to a party you're not very happy with.

Sorry, forgot the /s (see poster's name). /s

I absolutely agree with the rational that you should vote for a candidate and not a party. I've argued that point to many a person who tells me that voting third party is a waste. My opinion is that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that's given us the two party system.

ETA: Oh, and Kris's signature
Not to derail, but the Libertarian party (or any third party) doesn’t have a chance until they build an actual party, not just run a ramshackle presidential campaign once in awhile.

They need people running for every office, city, state, and national. If every one of them ran for an office, they might have just about enough to have a presence in those elections. At that point, maybe people would start noticing them and listening to what they had to say.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 23, 2017, 07:28:54 PM
Sorry, forgot the /s (see poster's name). /s

Well then nevermind.  He clearly voted for a party.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Dabnasty on December 23, 2017, 08:00:18 PM
So which party do you support?

Maybe he supports candidates for office, instead of parties?

That's been the easy out for me.  I definitely disagree with some of the party positions, but those positions are not shared by every candidate.  It's not uncommon to find a candidate you can support, even if they belong to a party you're not very happy with.

Sorry, forgot the /s (see poster's name). /s

I absolutely agree with the rational that you should vote for a candidate and not a party. I've argued that point to many a person who tells me that voting third party is a waste. My opinion is that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that's given us the two party system.

ETA: Oh, and Kris's signature
Not to derail, but the Libertarian party (or any third party) doesn’t have a chance until they build an actual party, not just run a ramshackle presidential campaign once in awhile.

They need people running for every office, city, state, and national. If every one of them ran for an office, they might have just about enough to have a presence in those elections. At that point, maybe people would start noticing them and listening to what they had to say.
That's a fair point. I would also say that the wasted vote mentality extends to those who want to be involved in politics. You can make your path to success a whole lot easier if you attach yourself to a mainstream party so that's inevitably where most of the talent goes. So maybe you're right, they need to start small and be patient.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: GuitarStv on December 24, 2017, 07:24:39 AM
So which party do you support?

Maybe he supports candidates for office, instead of parties?

That's been the easy out for me.  I definitely disagree with some of the party positions, but those positions are not shared by every candidate.  It's not uncommon to find a candidate you can support, even if they belong to a party you're not very happy with.

Sorry, forgot the /s (see poster's name). /s

I absolutely agree with the rational that you should vote for a candidate and not a party. I've argued that point to many a person who tells me that voting third party is a waste. My opinion is that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that's given us the two party system.

ETA: Oh, and Kris's signature
Not to derail, but the Libertarian party (or any third party) doesn’t have a chance until they build an actual party, not just run a ramshackle presidential campaign once in awhile.

They need people running for every office, city, state, and national. If every one of them ran for an office, they might have just about enough to have a presence in those elections. At that point, maybe people would start noticing them and listening to what they had to say.

That's not really a fair criticism.

Building an actual party is antithetical to the core Libertarian philosophy of anarchism.  How can you claim to be the small government at all costs party while keeping a large organization together?  That's why supporting the part is brilliant if you're a fan of simply opting out of politics beyond making snide remarks . . . they'll never be in a position of power, so your choice will never really come under fire for actions taken.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Kris on December 24, 2017, 09:30:40 AM
So which party do you support?

Maybe he supports candidates for office, instead of parties?

That's been the easy out for me.  I definitely disagree with some of the party positions, but those positions are not shared by every candidate.  It's not uncommon to find a candidate you can support, even if they belong to a party you're not very happy with.

Sorry, forgot the /s (see poster's name). /s

I absolutely agree with the rational that you should vote for a candidate and not a party. I've argued that point to many a person who tells me that voting third party is a waste. My opinion is that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that's given us the two party system.

ETA: Oh, and Kris's signature
Not to derail, but the Libertarian party (or any third party) doesn’t have a chance until they build an actual party, not just run a ramshackle presidential campaign once in awhile.

They need people running for every office, city, state, and national. If every one of them ran for an office, they might have just about enough to have a presence in those elections. At that point, maybe people would start noticing them and listening to what they had to say.

That's not really a fair criticism.

Building an actual party is antithetical to the core Libertarian philosophy of anarchism.  How can you claim to be the small government at all costs party while keeping a large organization together?  That's why supporting the part is brilliant if you're a fan of simply opting out of politics beyond making snide remarks . . . they'll never be in a position of power, so your choice will never really come under fire for actions taken.

It is a fair criticism.

Libertarians, I suspect, are far too enamored of being able to stand back and critique, safe in the belief that their apart-ness absolves them of responsibility, to actually mount any serious coherent strategy for creating a viable third party option. Which makes them largely ridiculous in my eyes. But not all third-party advocates are libertarians. And my remarks stand for any and all of them.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: CheapScholar on December 24, 2017, 10:03:09 AM
Merry Christmas to all the other Trumpkins on this forum.  Yes, we seem to be a slim minority but we know that our President will put America First.  He, and we, will never apologize for that.  God Bless our President and here's to another great year for our economy!  MAGA!
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: NoStacheOhio on December 24, 2017, 11:12:03 AM
Merry Christmas to all the other Trumpkins on this forum.  Yes, we seem to be a slim minority but we know that our President will put America First.  He, and we, will never apologize for that.  God Bless our President and here's to another great year for our economy!  MAGA!

Because nobody else gives any shits about America.

*eyeroll*
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 24, 2017, 11:39:52 AM
Merry Christmas to all the other Trumpkins on this forum.  Yes, we seem to be a slim minority but we know that our President will put America First.  He, and we, will never apologize for that.  God Bless our President and here's to another great year for our economy!  MAGA!

Do you feel he put America first when he repealed the fiduciary rule for financial advisors?  That one seems pretty straightforward to me, this was a rule that legally protected you from predatory advisors who would sell you high-fee products in order to line their own pockets, and Trump hates it.  He actively sought to overturn it, to make it legal for sharks to hunt you.  Congratulations, do you feel more free?

Similarly for repealing Dodd-Frank.  This was a law designed to put Americans first, to avoid another financial meltdown, and he killed it because, presumably, he wants another financial meltdown?  I just don't get why anyone supports this sort of thing.  You might as well say the 1st Amendment has to go because it's extraneous regulation burdening our economy.   No!  Some laws are good for America because they protect us!
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: accolay on December 24, 2017, 12:33:47 PM
Merry Christmas to all the other Trumpkins on this forum.  Yes, we seem to be a slim minority but we know that our President will put America First.  He, and we, will never apologize for that.  God Bless our President and here's to another great year for our economy!  MAGA!

Holy brainwash Batman!
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Kris on December 24, 2017, 01:06:11 PM
Merry Christmas to all the other Trumpkins on this forum.  Yes, we seem to be a slim minority but we know that our President will put America First.  He, and we, will never apologize for that.  God Bless our President and here's to another great year for our economy!  MAGA!

We used to make fun of North Korea for this stuff.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: PKFFW on December 24, 2017, 01:57:11 PM
Merry Christmas to all the other Trumpkins on this forum.  Yes, we seem to be a slim minority but we know that our President will put America First.  He, and we, will never apologize for that.  God Bless our President and here's to another great year for our economy!  MAGA!
I don't read enough of the threads here to be familiar with CheapScholar but surely this is an epic troll?  Even a proud Trump supporter could not really be that in denial could they?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: CheapScholar on December 24, 2017, 05:53:34 PM
I'm no troll.  Just a Midwestern paleo-conservative who loves the old GOP of protectionism and American Exceptionalism.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Kris on December 24, 2017, 05:59:33 PM
I'm no troll.  Just a Midwestern paleo-conservative who loves the old GOP of protectionism and American Exceptionalism.

American exceptionalism dies with Trump. So, yeah. Congrats.

I always knew the twenty-first century would be the one where the US lost its position as the leader pf the world. I just didn’t think it would happen so quickly.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: GetSmart on December 24, 2017, 06:02:29 PM
paleo-conservative who loves the old GOP of protectionism and American Exceptionalism.

What exactly does that mean to you ?  Did you not feel exceptional before nor protected ?

What's a paleo-conservative ??????
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: CheapScholar on December 24, 2017, 06:13:16 PM
I'd define paleo-conservatism as having roots with the early GOP (Fremont and Lincoln) and until Eisenhower.  But I'd say the pinnacle was McKinley.  And when I said protectionism, I meant trade policy, so no I sure don't feel protected at all. 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: PKFFW on December 24, 2017, 11:38:30 PM
I'd define paleo-conservatism as having roots with the early GOP (Fremont and Lincoln) and until Eisenhower.  But I'd say the pinnacle was McKinley.  And when I said protectionism, I meant trade policy, so no I sure don't feel protected at all.
Wow.  I never thought even the most ardent, blinkered and dare I say it, deluded Trumpite would ever think to suggest Trump or his policies were even in the same ball game much less the same league as Lincoln.

I congratulate you on being capable of the mental gymnastics it must take to avoid the otherwise debilitating cognitive dissonance holding such a viewpoint must surely inflict.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: craimund on December 25, 2017, 04:29:17 AM
It's an honest question.  I'm really curious as to whether anyone voted republican and now regrets it because:  No regrets at all.

1.  Gutting of ACA and how it effects your FIRE plans...  Obamacare deserves to be gutted.  The fact that multimillionaires on this forum can receive government subsidies which are paid for by taxpayers (some of whom are struggling working families) goes to the heart of what's wrong with the so-called "ACA".  Welfare for the wealthy.  No one should be forced by the government to purchase private health insurance.  We still have liberty in this country.
2.  The republican tax plan  Support the GOP tax plan.  Not perfect (and probably won't lower my taxes in the near term) but corporate rates needed to come down.
3.  Trump/Russia  Fake news.  No evidence of "collusion".  Also, collusion is not a crime.  I believe Mueller was supposed to look into Russian meddling in 2016 election.  Russia always meddles in elections.  Soviets supported civil rights movement and anti-war movements in 60s and 70s.  They also invariably support the Mueller investigation because it sows dissension internally and weakens the U.S.
4.  Less consumer protection (deregulation)  Consumer is better protected by competition in the marketplace than government regulation.  Who protects us from the government?
5.  Korea  Previous administrations allowed NK to develop nuclear weapons. Trump inherited this mess
6.  General lack of decorum  Dems have always lacked decorum.  Trump is fighting back.
7.  Environmental issues/climate change issues  Need less regulation here as well.  The climate does change.  Gov't policy has little to no effect on this.  Even warmists acknowledge this.
8.  Racial/religious (Muslim) tensions  Getting blown up by radical islamists tends to create tension.  This is not Trump's fault. 
9.  Women's rights/issues  Are you referring to abortion?  Roe v Wade decision was a travesty.  There is no Const. "right" to an abortion.  Needs to be overturned and allow states to decide since there is no federal right.

I'm actually curious.  And I'm wondering if you will vote differently next time?  Will definitely vote Republican next time.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: CheapScholar on December 25, 2017, 07:10:07 AM
I'd define paleo-conservatism as having roots with the early GOP (Fremont and Lincoln) and until Eisenhower.  But I'd say the pinnacle was McKinley.  And when I said protectionism, I meant trade policy, so no I sure don't feel protected at all.
Wow.  I never thought even the most ardent, blinkered and dare I say it, deluded Trumpite would ever think to suggest Trump or his policies were even in the same ball game much less the same league as Lincoln.

I congratulate you on being capable of the mental gymnastics it must take to avoid the otherwise debilitating cognitive dissonance holding such a viewpoint must surely inflict.

Would be hard to argue that Lincoln and Trump do not have similar policies on international trade.  The GOP was pro-tariff back then and I'm happy we are getting back to our roots..  Trump is also similar to Lincoln on immigration.  Anyway, I didn't say that Trump and Lincoln were twins, I said that Paleo-conservatism (which Trump best fits) traces its roots back to the mid 19th century GOP.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sixup on December 25, 2017, 09:32:53 AM
What exactly is the problem with increasing the deficit, for anyone who thinks it's a problem (Republican or Democrat)?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: golden1 on December 25, 2017, 02:33:38 PM
Fascinating.  All cult45 members sound pretty much the same.  It is honestly scary how people will rationalize any behavior in order to fall in line with the tribe.  The same people who screamed about the deficit are now totally fine with jacking it up.  The same people who were behind the “law and order” president are screaming that the FBI is corrupt. 

Humans are truly awful creatures sometimes. 




Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: bacchi on December 25, 2017, 04:43:13 PM
I'd define paleo-conservatism as having roots with the early GOP (Fremont and Lincoln) and until Eisenhower.  But I'd say the pinnacle was McKinley.  And when I said protectionism, I meant trade policy, so no I sure don't feel protected at all.

I'd mention Smoot-Hawley but that'll probably be dismissed as "it was different then."

The modern example is of course Brexit. In just over a year, inflation has risen and England has fallen out of the top 5 world economies. The rest of the world has decent to high growth rate but England's has dropped to 1.5%. It's expected to drop further next year.

Protectionism simply doesn't work in a modern economy.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: PKFFW on December 25, 2017, 07:48:10 PM
Would be hard to argue that Lincoln and Trump do not have similar policies on international trade.  The GOP was pro-tariff back then and I'm happy we are getting back to our roots..  Trump is also similar to Lincoln on immigration.  Anyway, I didn't say that Trump and Lincoln were twins, I said that Paleo-conservatism (which Trump best fits) traces its roots back to the mid 19th century GOP.
Like I said, impressive mental gymnastics.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: t185 on December 26, 2017, 06:12:15 AM
I'm no troll.  Just a Midwestern paleo-conservative who loves the old GOP of protectionism and American Exceptionalism.


I'm with you brother.Keep the faith!
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: CheapScholar on December 26, 2017, 10:08:05 AM
I'd define paleo-conservatism as having roots with the early GOP (Fremont and Lincoln) and until Eisenhower.  But I'd say the pinnacle was McKinley.  And when I said protectionism, I meant trade policy, so no I sure don't feel protected at all.

I'd mention Smoot-Hawley but that'll probably be dismissed as "it was different then."

The modern example is of course Brexit. In just over a year, inflation has risen and England has fallen out of the top 5 world economies. The rest of the world has decent to high growth rate but England's has dropped to 1.5%. It's expected to drop further next year.

Protectionism simply doesn't work in a modern economy.

Don't forget about all the Bernie Sanders supporters in the primaries.  When you add up the Trump and Sanders supporters, I'd wager a MAJORITY of Americans voted for protectionist candidates.  Like Trump said, "Crazy Bernie was crazy, but he was right on trade."

Free trade doesn't work in a modern economy.  Heck, the fringe left of the Democratic Party was vehemently protectionist until Trump adopted the position.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: bacchi on December 26, 2017, 02:30:39 PM
I'd define paleo-conservatism as having roots with the early GOP (Fremont and Lincoln) and until Eisenhower.  But I'd say the pinnacle was McKinley.  And when I said protectionism, I meant trade policy, so no I sure don't feel protected at all.

I'd mention Smoot-Hawley but that'll probably be dismissed as "it was different then."

The modern example is of course Brexit. In just over a year, inflation has risen and England has fallen out of the top 5 world economies. The rest of the world has decent to high growth rate but England's has dropped to 1.5%. It's expected to drop further next year.

Protectionism simply doesn't work in a modern economy.

Don't forget about all the Bernie Sanders supporters in the primaries.  When you add up the Trump and Sanders supporters, I'd wager a MAJORITY of Americans voted for protectionist candidates.  Like Trump said, "Crazy Bernie was crazy, but he was right on trade."

Free trade doesn't work in a modern economy.  Heck, the fringe left of the Democratic Party was vehemently protectionist until Trump adopted the position.

?? So they were wrong too.

What's that got to do with Smoot and Brexit causing problems in the economy?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Kris on December 26, 2017, 03:31:01 PM
For the Trump supporters:

The Trump administration is scaling back the use of fines against nursing homes that harm residents or placed them in grave risk of injury.

Source: http://nyti.ms/2BBIZnC

Can you tell me why this is good?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: wenchsenior on December 26, 2017, 03:52:42 PM
For the Trump supporters:

The Trump administration is scaling back the use of fines against nursing homes that harm residents or placed them in grave risk of injury.

Source: http://nyti.ms/2BBIZnC

Can you tell me why this is good?

Free market, man! The consumer can take their business elsewhere!  :sarcasm:
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: accolay on December 26, 2017, 05:20:27 PM
Would be hard to argue that Lincoln and Trump do not have similar policies on international trade.  The GOP was pro-tariff back then and I'm happy we are getting back to our roots..  Trump is also similar to Lincoln on immigration.  Anyway, I didn't say that Trump and Lincoln were twins, I said that Paleo-conservatism (which Trump best fits) traces its roots back to the mid 19th century GOP.

Tariffs? Oh boy. Where do you think those increase trickle down?

You know that Mexico, our next door neighbor is already talking about exports to Canada and Europe? This is due to all of 45's big rhetoric. Our farmers are freaking out a bit.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: CheapScholar on December 26, 2017, 07:03:07 PM
Once we kill NAFTA we can enter agricultural trade agreements.  No sense in us growing avocados in greenhouses or Mexico trying to grow crappy apples.  But most things we use and consume can be made in our country.  Cars being the prime example.  The most dangerous people in society are those with nothing to lose.  And I've lived long enough in the rust belt to see this lost generation of men and women who cannot find work and thus have no dignity and put off home ownership and having children.  The U3 unemployment rate is also bullshit.  Look at the number of people on food stamps for crying out loud.  We are going to MAKE AMERICAN AND BUY AMERICAN. 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Kris on December 26, 2017, 07:15:37 PM
For the Trump supporters:

The Trump administration is scaling back the use of fines against nursing homes that harm residents or placed them in grave risk of injury.

Source: http://nyti.ms/2BBIZnC

Can you tell me why this is good?

Free market, man! The consumer can take their business elsewhere!  :sarcasm:

Yeah.

In my experience, whenever I have asked a question like this, the answer tends to be radio silence.

Who knows, though... maybe this time will be different.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Kris on December 26, 2017, 07:16:40 PM
Once we kill NAFTA we can enter agricultural trade agreements.  No sense in us growing avocados in greenhouses or Mexico trying to grow crappy apples.  But most things we use and consume can be made in our country.  Cars being the prime example.  The most dangerous people in society are those with nothing to lose.  And I've lived long enough in the rust belt to see this lost generation of men and women who cannot find work and thus have no dignity and put off home ownership and having children.  The U3 unemployment rate is also bullshit.  Look at the number of people on food stamps for crying out loud.  We are going to MAKE AMERICAN AND BUY AMERICAN.

Good lord.

You actually believe this.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: ncornilsen on December 27, 2017, 08:08:35 AM


For the Trump supporters:

The Trump administration is scaling back the use of fines against nursing homes that harm residents or placed them in grave risk of injury.

Source: http://nyti.ms/2BBIZnC

Can you tell me why this is good?



Did you read the article?

David Gifford, the American Health Care Association’s senior vice president for quality, said daily fines were intended to prompt quick remedies but were pointless when applied to past errors that had already been fixed by the time inspectors discovered them.

“What was happening is you were seeing massive fines accumulating because they were applying them on a per-day basis retrospectively,” Mr. Gifford said.


As someone who deals with our state's Department of Environmental Quality, I can say definitely that regulation and moronic application and enforement there-of has forced me to install equipment that was more costly to run and less effective at what it was supposed to do, because it was the only way to meet the 'regulations' as they're (poorly) written. So, this one below rings true:

“Rather than spending quality time with their patients, the providers are spending time complying with regulations that get in the way of caring for their patients and doesn’t increase the quality of care they provide,” Dr. Goodrich said

I'll give you that reducing the fines levied in some of the egregious cases brought up seems imprudent. I could definitely quibble about the details of the changes.  But if you use too heavy a hammer for the small non-life-health-safety stuff, you just drive the cost of care up further without actually improving anything.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Jrr85 on December 27, 2017, 10:58:52 AM
Do you feel he put America first when he repealed the fiduciary rule for financial advisors?  That one seems pretty straightforward to me, this was a rule that legally protected you from predatory advisors who would sell you high-fee products in order to line their own pockets, and Trump hates it.  He actively sought to overturn it, to make it legal for sharks to hunt you.  Congratulations, do you feel more free?
  It's less straightforward than you make it.  One, the rule was issued by the DOL.  That's really a stretch of their jurisdiction.  That's more of a rule of law issue than a substantive critique of the rule, but it does matter.  It's a bad practice for government bureaucrats or appointees to get beyond their field because they feel "something" needs to be done and the  entity with the appropriate power and jurisdiction isn't "doing something".  Second, you're assuming that the people who were getting overly expensive advice will now get appropriately priced advice, or that they will learn on their own.  But what will really happen is that a lot of people who would have gotten overly expensive advice that would generally prevent them from doing something catastrophic (like leaving their savings in straight cash) will now end up without any advice. 

I'm personally in favor of the rule (although I do not think the DOL should issue it), but I get that it's not a slam dunk case and there will be real harm that accompanies the benefits. 

Similarly for repealing Dodd-Frank.  This was a law designed to put Americans first, to avoid another financial meltdown, and he killed it because, presumably, he wants another financial meltdown?  I just don't get why anyone supports this sort of thing.  You might as well say the 1st Amendment has to go because it's extraneous regulation burdening our economy.   No!  Some laws are good for America because they protect us!
  Dodd-Frank was not designed to avoid another financial meltdown.  Dodd Frank was designed to allow politicians to "do something" and to also create opportunities for graft.  Some things Dodd Frank does are good and worth the costs, some things Dodd Frank does are good but not worth the costs, and some things are just bad.  There has been some relief granted, but Dodd Frank did encourage consolidation in the banking industry because it raised the regulatory burden on small and mid sized financial institutions.  I would say that's bad.  I'm not an expert enough to know where it falls out.  People who are experts that I trust think it is overall a net negative by a significant margin.  But they do come from a few different particular backgrounds and experiences and have their own biases. 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: ncornilsen on December 27, 2017, 12:36:57 PM
Do you feel he put America first when he repealed the fiduciary rule for financial advisors?  That one seems pretty straightforward to me, this was a rule that legally protected you from predatory advisors who would sell you high-fee products in order to line their own pockets, and Trump hates it.  He actively sought to overturn it, to make it legal for sharks to hunt you.  Congratulations, do you feel more free?
  It's less straightforward than you make it.  One, the rule was issued by the DOL.  That's really a stretch of their jurisdiction.  That's more of a rule of law issue than a substantive critique of the rule, but it does matter.  It's a bad practice for government bureaucrats or appointees to get beyond their field because they feel "something" needs to be done and the  entity with the appropriate power and jurisdiction isn't "doing something".  Second, you're assuming that the people who were getting overly expensive advice will now get appropriately priced advice, or that they will learn on their own.  But what will really happen is that a lot of people who would have gotten overly expensive advice that would generally prevent them from doing something catastrophic (like leaving their savings in straight cash) will now end up without any advice. 

I'm personally in favor of the rule (although I do not think the DOL should issue it), but I get that it's not a slam dunk case and there will be real harm that accompanies the benefits. 

Similarly for repealing Dodd-Frank.  This was a law designed to put Americans first, to avoid another financial meltdown, and he killed it because, presumably, he wants another financial meltdown?  I just don't get why anyone supports this sort of thing.  You might as well say the 1st Amendment has to go because it's extraneous regulation burdening our economy.   No!  Some laws are good for America because they protect us!
  Dodd-Frank was not designed to avoid another financial meltdown.  Dodd Frank was designed to allow politicians to "do something" and to also create opportunities for graft.  Some things Dodd Frank does are good and worth the costs, some things Dodd Frank does are good but not worth the costs, and some things are just bad.  There has been some relief granted, but Dodd Frank did encourage consolidation in the banking industry because it raised the regulatory burden on small and mid sized financial institutions.  I would say that's bad.  I'm not an expert enough to know where it falls out.  People who are experts that I trust think it is overall a net negative by a significant margin.  But they do come from a few different particular backgrounds and experiences and have their own biases.

I know of a few small, 2-3 location banks in the Midwest that are about to fold up shop because of the reg burden of Dodd-frank. It consolidates banks into yet more 'to big to fail' behemoths.

That said, who am I supposed to beleive? The bankers know what regulations screw them unnecessarily, but we all think (with very good reason) that anything they ask for releif on is another scheme to screw us.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: retiringearly on December 27, 2017, 01:47:25 PM
I have never regretted voting Republican.

I voted for Donald J. Trump in the primary, and I voted for Donald J. Trump in the Presidential election.

I am grateful that he is my President.

MAGA.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: talltexan on December 28, 2017, 07:20:32 AM
Conservatives believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.
Liberals believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.

Most of the liberals I know would love to decrease the deficit (in boom times). A lot of the spending decrease just has to come from one of the elephants in the room, which is taboo to most Republicans.

Exactly.

You can change the name of the parties around and have it be just as accurate.

We are in an expanding economy and Republicans, and only Republicans, just passed a tax cut that will add $1.5 trillion to the deficit.

So, no you can't.
Minor point: that's 1.5 trillion over ten years. $150bn was added to the yearly deficit.

I thought we were talking about your average, day to day liberal/republican?
Either way, Obama ran very similar deficits to Bush when you ignore the TARP/financial crisis stuff, and didn't do anything to reduce the deficits. Democrats didn't pass any spending cuts.

Republicans increase the deficit by taking less from the people.
Democrats increase the deficit by taking more from the people, and SPENDING even more yet.

Sequester was still on the books as Obama went out the door. GOP House demanded (and got) spending cuts from a Democratic President, exactly like they always do.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: bacchi on December 28, 2017, 10:09:06 AM
Sequester was still on the books as Obama went out the door. GOP House demanded (and got) spending cuts from a Democratic President, exactly like they always do.

Federal expenditures were $3.51T in 2014 and $3.85T in 2016. The 2017 requested budget was $4.15T. The deficit was $485B in 2014, $587B in 2016, and $503B (requested) for 2017.

Where are these budget cuts and why aren't they reflected in the expenditures or deficit?

Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: ncornilsen on December 28, 2017, 10:23:01 AM
Sequester was still on the books as Obama went out the door. GOP House demanded (and got) spending cuts from a Democratic President, exactly like they always do.

Federal expenditures were $3.51T in 2014 and $3.85T in 2016. The 2017 requested budget was $4.15T. The deficit was $485B in 2014, $587B in 2016, and $503B (requested) for 2017.

Where are these budget cuts and why aren't they reflected in the expenditures or deficit?

A common tactic is to call a reduction in the rate of increase of a particular budget item a "budget cut." This is commonly used by Democrats to accuse republicans of cutting the budget for poor or sick people... it's also used by republicans to say how much they cut a budget without actually doing so. How big the cut is depends on the assumed baseline %increase that budget item is assumed to get... and that baseline can be based on the % increase it got lastyear, or whatever arbitrary percentage is needed to support a particular narrative.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 28, 2017, 11:18:12 AM
Sequester was still on the books as Obama went out the door. GOP House demanded (and got) spending cuts from a Democratic President, exactly like they always do.

Federal expenditures were $3.51T in 2014 and $3.85T in 2016. The 2017 requested budget was $4.15T. The deficit was $485B in 2014, $587B in 2016, and $503B (requested) for 2017.

Where are these budget cuts and why aren't they reflected in the expenditures or deficit?

A common tactic is to call a reduction in the rate of increase of a particular budget item a "budget cut." This is commonly used by Democrats to accuse republicans of cutting the budget for poor or sick people... it's also used by republicans to say how much they cut a budget without actually doing so. How big the cut is depends on the assumed baseline %increase that budget item is assumed to get... and that baseline can be based on the % increase it got lastyear, or whatever arbitrary percentage is needed to support a particular narrative.

This same tactic was used to explain why three consecutive years of 0% raises for government employees were not actually a pay cut, despite inflation of 8% over the same period.  Thanks Obama!

Somehow they found it in their hearts to give the military inflation-based raises, because we have to support our troops, but not civilian employees.   
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 28, 2017, 12:52:57 PM
Trickle down! GE is laying off 12,000 workers in 2018. AT&T announce they are laying off 1,400. 555 layoffs at Carrier. More layoffs in steel and mining. Merry Christmas from Trumpland!
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: jinga nation on December 29, 2017, 11:48:47 AM
GE is laying off 12,000 workers in 2018. T&T announce they are laying off 1,400.
This has nothing to do with Trump (or Obama). Stop with the rhetoric.
If you've worked in multinationals and conglomerates, certain divisions fall behind. GE's Power division isn't contributing as much to the bottom line as their aviation and healthcare business. GE wants out of the lightbulb business. They want to focus on their strengths. And they're moving from manufacturing into IoT and smart devices world. They're hiring engineers with the new skills.
AT&T has over 200,000 US employees. 1,400 is less than 1%. End of year you get rid of bad performers. Or there's business reorganization according to the company's long-term strategic plan.
Every single company does this. It's called change. Adapt or die. We live in a capitalistic society. Deal with it.
I expected forum members here to do some due diligence using this thing called computerz on the interwebz with the Google. Or ask Google or Siri on smartphone.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 29, 2017, 12:47:45 PM
GE is laying off 12,000 workers in 2018. T&T announce they are laying off 1,400.
This has nothing to do with Trump (or Obama). Stop with the rhetoric.
If you've worked in multinationals and conglomerates, certain divisions fall behind. GE's Power division isn't contributing as much to the bottom line as their aviation and healthcare business. GE wants out of the lightbulb business. They want to focus on their strengths. And they're moving from manufacturing into IoT and smart devices world. They're hiring engineers with the new skills.
AT&T has over 200,000 US employees. 1,400 is less than 1%. End of year you get rid of bad performers. Or there's business reorganization according to the company's long-term strategic plan.
Every single company does this. It's called change. Adapt or die. We live in a capitalistic society. Deal with it.
I expected forum members here to do some due diligence using this thing called computerz on the interwebz with the Google. Or ask Google or Siri on smartphone.

You must have missed the /s of my post.  Trump and Trumpies went crazy over the Christmas bonuses announced last week.  They've said the tax bill will create "many, many jobs" and here we have a bunch of reports of companies slashing jobs.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: A Definite Beta Guy on December 29, 2017, 12:50:30 PM
I'd define paleo-conservatism as having roots with the early GOP (Fremont and Lincoln) and until Eisenhower.  But I'd say the pinnacle was McKinley.  And when I said protectionism, I meant trade policy, so no I sure don't feel protected at all.

I'd mention Smoot-Hawley but that'll probably be dismissed as "it was different then."

The modern example is of course Brexit. In just over a year, inflation has risen and England has fallen out of the top 5 world economies. The rest of the world has decent to high growth rate but England's has dropped to 1.5%. It's expected to drop further next year.

Protectionism simply doesn't work in a modern economy.

Don't forget about all the Bernie Sanders supporters in the primaries.  When you add up the Trump and Sanders supporters, I'd wager a MAJORITY of Americans voted for protectionist candidates.  Like Trump said, "Crazy Bernie was crazy, but he was right on trade."

Free trade doesn't work in a modern economy.  Heck, the fringe left of the Democratic Party was vehemently protectionist until Trump adopted the position.

Sanders-istas aren't really voting for protectionism, they're just voting against rich people and corporations.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: jinga nation on December 29, 2017, 02:38:31 PM
GE is laying off 12,000 workers in 2018. T&T announce they are laying off 1,400.
This has nothing to do with Trump (or Obama). Stop with the rhetoric.
If you've worked in multinationals and conglomerates, certain divisions fall behind. GE's Power division isn't contributing as much to the bottom line as their aviation and healthcare business. GE wants out of the lightbulb business. They want to focus on their strengths. And they're moving from manufacturing into IoT and smart devices world. They're hiring engineers with the new skills.
AT&T has over 200,000 US employees. 1,400 is less than 1%. End of year you get rid of bad performers. Or there's business reorganization according to the company's long-term strategic plan.
Every single company does this. It's called change. Adapt or die. We live in a capitalistic society. Deal with it.
I expected forum members here to do some due diligence using this thing called computerz on the interwebz with the Google. Or ask Google or Siri on smartphone.

You must have missed the /s of my post.  Trump and Trumpies went crazy over the Christmas bonuses announced last week.  They've said the tax bill will create "many, many jobs" and here we have a bunch of reports of companies slashing jobs.
You didn't have the /s. If you meant it, you should have added it at the end. Can't read your mind over the internet, bud!
I agree that GOP and Trump supporters going crazy, however there were similar things under Obama that his supporters thought would grow jobs enormously.
You can't trust a politician's predictions, they switch based on the lobbyist buying dinner that night.
Both parties have divided and conquered the American public.
Companies will do whatever it is to increase profits, that comes from being a publicly listed company beholden to bond and stockholders whose interests lie first.
The bonus game is deflection to either get attention or mask other intentions.
The fact is the current job market requires continuous education and learning to keep the job, as it keeps on changing. Those who are in legacy jobs or refuse to adapt will be casualties.
And we have too many "reporters" who write stories without in-depth analysis. This short-stories/ twitter/ buzzfeed journalism doesn't help anyone.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: retiringearly on December 29, 2017, 04:44:35 PM
Trickle down! GE is laying off 12,000 workers in 2018. AT&T announce they are laying off 1,400. 555 layoffs at Carrier. More layoffs in steel and mining. Merry Christmas from Trumpland!
Unemployment is lower today than it has been at any point since December 2000.
Don't let facts get in the way of your blind, ignorant hatred.

MAGA.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: NaturallyHappier on December 29, 2017, 06:52:03 PM
Unemployment dropped from 10% to 4.7% (5.3%) during the Obama years.  It is 4.1% now, a drop of 0.6% in Trumps first year. It is still is 0.2% higher than it was at it's lowest point around 2000 (3.9%). 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: facepalm on December 29, 2017, 07:45:14 PM

Free trade doesn't work in a modern economy. 

Huh?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: retiringearly on December 29, 2017, 07:45:53 PM
Unemployment dropped from 10% to 4.7% (5.3%) during the Obama years.  It is 4.1% now, a drop of 0.6% in Trumps first year. It is still is 0.2% higher than it was at it's lowest point around 2000 (3.9%).
So you agree that unemployment under President Donald J. Trump is lower than any point since December 2000? Great!

President Donald J. Trump has taken 1) unemployment to lows not seen in 17 full years and 2) the US stock market to highs never seen at any time in history.

I hope facts don't trigger you.

MAGA.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: scottish on December 29, 2017, 08:06:05 PM
I bet a bunch of people will explain how Trump didn't actually cause those things to happen.

You guys should see some of the new labour regulations the Ontario government is bringing in.   In many ways they are diametrically opposed to Trump.
I suspect that the overall effect will be to reduce employment by encouraging employers to automate.

I'm not a Trump fan, but he is getting government out of the way of business.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: retiringearly on December 29, 2017, 08:18:46 PM
The single greatest reason that I am grateful that I voted for PRESIDENT Donald. J. Trump is ........Neil Gorsuch.

He will be helping to guide the United States of America for decades.

Instead of Merrick Garland.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: bacchi on December 29, 2017, 09:45:25 PM
Unemployment dropped from 10% to 4.7% (5.3%) during the Obama years.  It is 4.1% now, a drop of 0.6% in Trumps first year. It is still is 0.2% higher than it was at it's lowest point around 2000 (3.9%).
So you agree that unemployment under President Donald J. Trump is lower than any point since December 2000? Great!

President Donald J. Trump has taken 1) unemployment to lows not seen in 17 full years and 2) the US stock market to highs never seen at any time in history.

I hope facts don't trigger you.

MAGA.

2) Happens for a lot of Presidents because the market generally goes up. Obama also had the highest market at any time in history. It looks like Bush had a historic high, too, and so did Clinton and H.W. and Reagan.

Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: marty998 on December 29, 2017, 10:20:52 PM
Unemployment dropped from 10% to 4.7% (5.3%) during the Obama years.  It is 4.1% now, a drop of 0.6% in Trumps first year. It is still is 0.2% higher than it was at it's lowest point around 2000 (3.9%).
So you agree that unemployment under President Donald J. Trump is lower than any point since December 2000? Great!

President Donald J. Trump has taken 1) unemployment to lows not seen in 17 full years and 2) the US stock market to highs never seen at any time in history.

I hope facts don't trigger you.

MAGA.

I want one of those hats. I met 3 American tourists on my recent holiday to Central Australia and none of them had a MAGA hat.

Totes disappointed.

Seriously though... you are like Bush yelling "mission accomplished" and guess what... you guys are still in Iraq.

Long ways to go yet.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on December 29, 2017, 11:09:48 PM
Folks in Kentucky and West Virginia will probably eventually end up regretting their votes, when they realize that they voted to do away with their own health insurance subsidies. I don't think that's really sunk in yet with them, but maybe it will dawn on them once premiums skyrocket 20% from the individual mandate being outlawed. So far, nearly all the economic benefits of Trump seizing power have gone to Hillary Clinton's supporters, which is the very epitome of irony.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: NoStacheOhio on December 30, 2017, 05:25:11 AM
Deep irony here: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/10/us/politics/pollution-epa-regulations.html
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: former player on December 30, 2017, 05:55:20 AM
The single greatest reason that I am grateful that I voted for PRESIDENT Donald. J. Trump is ........Neil Gorsuch.

He will be helping to guide the United States of America for decades.

Instead of Merrick Garland.
Shouldn't that be a vote of thanks to Mitch McConnell for subverting the confirmation process in a way that handed Trump the opportunity to make an appointment that he would not otherwise have had?  All Trump did was take advantage of an opportunity handed to him on a plate and then not eff it up.

Granted, it's something Trump did manage not to eff up (if you believe in so-called "conservative" values), which is in itself surprising.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: wenchsenior on December 30, 2017, 07:58:30 AM
Unemployment dropped from 10% to 4.7% (5.3%) during the Obama years.  It is 4.1% now, a drop of 0.6% in Trumps first year. It is still is 0.2% higher than it was at it's lowest point around 2000 (3.9%).
So you agree that unemployment under President Donald J. Trump is lower than any point since December 2000? Great!

President Donald J. Trump has taken 1) unemployment to lows not seen in 17 full years and 2) the US stock market to highs never seen at any time in history.

I hope facts don't trigger you.

MAGA.

Is typing the word "president" in bold font giving you a sexual thrill or something?  Seriously, what's with that?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: GuitarStv on December 30, 2017, 08:14:35 AM
I was kinda wondering why the full name was being typed over and over again.  It's not like there's any other president Trump that someone could get confused with.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: NoStacheOhio on December 30, 2017, 08:26:03 AM
I was kinda wondering why the full name was being typed over and over again.  It's not like there's any other president Trump that someone could get confused with.

I think it's to emphasize all the electoral winning. Librul tears and all that.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on December 30, 2017, 09:27:52 AM
I was kinda wondering why the full name was being typed over and over again.  It's not like there's any other president Trump that someone could get confused with.

I think it's to emphasize all the electoral winning. Librul tears and all that.

It's because he used his full name on his TV show, which means it's a fancy name and very prestigious. He had a TV show, people!
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: retiringearly on December 30, 2017, 01:03:08 PM
Unemployment dropped from 10% to 4.7% (5.3%) during the Obama years.  It is 4.1% now, a drop of 0.6% in Trumps first year. It is still is 0.2% higher than it was at it's lowest point around 2000 (3.9%).
So you agree that unemployment under President Donald J. Trump is lower than any point since December 2000? Great!

President Donald J. Trump has taken 1) unemployment to lows not seen in 17 full years and 2) the US stock market to highs never seen at any time in history.

I hope facts don't trigger you.

MAGA.

Is typing the word "president" in bold font giving you a sexual thrill or something?  Seriously, what's with that?
It is because so many American citizens tried to claim that he isn't their president.

Surprise!  He is their president!  Any will be for the next three years!  And most likely the following four years!
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Just Joe on December 30, 2017, 01:08:02 PM
Once we kill NAFTA we can enter agricultural trade agreements.  No sense in us growing avocados in greenhouses or Mexico trying to grow crappy apples.  But most things we use and consume can be made in our country.  Cars being the prime example.  The most dangerous people in society are those with nothing to lose.  And I've lived long enough in the rust belt to see this lost generation of men and women who cannot find work and thus have no dignity and put off home ownership and having children.  The U3 unemployment rate is also bullshit.  Look at the number of people on food stamps for crying out loud.  We are going to MAKE AMERICAN AND BUY AMERICAN.


I've been in the rust belt since '94 and have witnessed many auto plants close and move across the border.  It sucks. The landscape changed drastically from middle class to lower income.

But to think that Trump is going to bring those jobs back is ludicrous. The automakers (let's say the Big 3) have no reason to bring those jobs back to then pay a higher wage for the same work they get at 10cents on the dollar in Mexico.

I'm all for locals supporting locals, but this idea that manufacturing is going to come back because of Trump is rather foolish. I hope it does, but I'm not holding my breath for it.

Was their dash south of the border also an effort to get out from under the unions? Business with unions seems from my POV to be both expensive and time consuming. Difficult.

A fair number of these factories found a happy middle ground in the southern states.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: wenchsenior on December 30, 2017, 02:12:43 PM
Unemployment dropped from 10% to 4.7% (5.3%) during the Obama years.  It is 4.1% now, a drop of 0.6% in Trumps first year. It is still is 0.2% higher than it was at it's lowest point around 2000 (3.9%).
So you agree that unemployment under President Donald J. Trump is lower than any point since December 2000? Great!

President Donald J. Trump has taken 1) unemployment to lows not seen in 17 full years and 2) the US stock market to highs never seen at any time in history.

I hope facts don't trigger you.

MAGA.

Is typing the word "president" in bold font giving you a sexual thrill or something?  Seriously, what's with that?
It is because so many American citizens tried to claim that he isn't their president.

Surprise!  He is their president!  Any will be for the next three years!  And most likely the following four years!

Mmmm...ok.  But no one here is claiming he isn't the president. 
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on December 30, 2017, 02:16:23 PM
Unemployment dropped from 10% to 4.7% (5.3%) during the Obama years.  It is 4.1% now, a drop of 0.6% in Trumps first year. It is still is 0.2% higher than it was at it's lowest point around 2000 (3.9%).
So you agree that unemployment under President Donald J. Trump is lower than any point since December 2000? Great!

President Donald J. Trump has taken 1) unemployment to lows not seen in 17 full years and 2) the US stock market to highs never seen at any time in history.

I hope facts don't trigger you.

MAGA.

Is typing the word "president" in bold font giving you a sexual thrill or something?  Seriously, what's with that?
It is because so many American citizens tried to claim that he isn't their president.

Surprise!  He is their president!  Any will be for the next three years!  And most likely the following four years!

Mmmm...ok.  But no one here is claiming he isn't the president.

Nah, I don't accept Trump as President and I don't feel I should have to follow anything he says. As far as I'm concerned, America is like Mad Max right now. Anarchy and anything goes.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: retiringearly on December 30, 2017, 02:22:50 PM
Unemployment dropped from 10% to 4.7% (5.3%) during the Obama years.  It is 4.1% now, a drop of 0.6% in Trumps first year. It is still is 0.2% higher than it was at it's lowest point around 2000 (3.9%).
So you agree that unemployment under President Donald J. Trump is lower than any point since December 2000? Great!

President Donald J. Trump has taken 1) unemployment to lows not seen in 17 full years and 2) the US stock market to highs never seen at any time in history.

I hope facts don't trigger you.

MAGA.

Is typing the word "president" in bold font giving you a sexual thrill or something?  Seriously, what's with that?
It is because so many American citizens tried to claim that he isn't their president.

Surprise!  He is their president!  Any will be for the next three years!  And most likely the following four years!

Mmmm...ok.  But no one here is claiming he isn't the president.
I can post dozens of links showing loonies claiming the President Donald J. Trump is "not their president" to supposrt my position.

https://www.today.com/video/-not-my-president-anti-donald-trump-protests-erupt-across-the-country-after-election-805571139670
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: retiringearly on December 30, 2017, 02:23:42 PM
Unemployment dropped from 10% to 4.7% (5.3%) during the Obama years.  It is 4.1% now, a drop of 0.6% in Trumps first year. It is still is 0.2% higher than it was at it's lowest point around 2000 (3.9%).
So you agree that unemployment under President Donald J. Trump is lower than any point since December 2000? Great!

President Donald J. Trump has taken 1) unemployment to lows not seen in 17 full years and 2) the US stock market to highs never seen at any time in history.

I hope facts don't trigger you.

MAGA.

Is typing the word "president" in bold font giving you a sexual thrill or something?  Seriously, what's with that?
It is because so many American citizens tried to claim that he isn't their president.

Surprise!  He is their president!  Any will be for the next three years!  And most likely the following four years!

Mmmm...ok.  But no one here is claiming he isn't the president.

Nah, I don't accept Trump as President and I don't feel I should have to follow anything he says. As far as I'm concerned, America is like Mad Max right now. Anarchy and anything goes.
Your screen name seems very accurate.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: wenchsenior on December 30, 2017, 02:24:17 PM
Unemployment dropped from 10% to 4.7% (5.3%) during the Obama years.  It is 4.1% now, a drop of 0.6% in Trumps first year. It is still is 0.2% higher than it was at it's lowest point around 2000 (3.9%).
So you agree that unemployment under President Donald J. Trump is lower than any point since December 2000? Great!

President Donald J. Trump has taken 1) unemployment to lows not seen in 17 full years and 2) the US stock market to highs never seen at any time in history.

I hope facts don't trigger you.

MAGA.

Is typing the word "president" in bold font giving you a sexual thrill or something?  Seriously, what's with that?
It is because so many American citizens tried to claim that he isn't their president.

Surprise!  He is their president!  Any will be for the next three years!  And most likely the following four years!

Mmmm...ok.  But no one here is claiming he isn't the president.

Nah, I don't accept Trump as President and I don't feel I should have to follow anything he says. As far as I'm concerned, America is like Mad Max right now. Anarchy and anything goes.

Right, but I assume you acknowledge he won the presidency via legal electoral college vote, right? I mean, I don't know anyone who doesn't think he is legally president.  I know tons of people who think he shouldn't be president, or who think without Russian meddling in the election he wouldn't be president, or who (as do I) think he's an atrocious and unqualified president.  But that's a different thing.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: wenchsenior on December 30, 2017, 02:24:48 PM
Unemployment dropped from 10% to 4.7% (5.3%) during the Obama years.  It is 4.1% now, a drop of 0.6% in Trumps first year. It is still is 0.2% higher than it was at it's lowest point around 2000 (3.9%).
So you agree that unemployment under President Donald J. Trump is lower than any point since December 2000? Great!

President Donald J. Trump has taken 1) unemployment to lows not seen in 17 full years and 2) the US stock market to highs never seen at any time in history.

I hope facts don't trigger you.

MAGA.

Is typing the word "president" in bold font giving you a sexual thrill or something?  Seriously, what's with that?
It is because so many American citizens tried to claim that he isn't their president.

Surprise!  He is their president!  Any will be for the next three years!  And most likely the following four years!

Mmmm...ok.  But no one here is claiming he isn't the president.

Nah, I don't accept Trump as President and I don't feel I should have to follow anything he says. As far as I'm concerned, America is like Mad Max right now. Anarchy and anything goes.
Your screen name seems very accurate.

You're kind of an asshole, aren't you?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on December 30, 2017, 02:25:17 PM
Once we kill NAFTA we can enter agricultural trade agreements.  No sense in us growing avocados in greenhouses or Mexico trying to grow crappy apples.  But most things we use and consume can be made in our country.  Cars being the prime example.  The most dangerous people in society are those with nothing to lose.  And I've lived long enough in the rust belt to see this lost generation of men and women who cannot find work and thus have no dignity and put off home ownership and having children.  The U3 unemployment rate is also bullshit.  Look at the number of people on food stamps for crying out loud.  We are going to MAKE AMERICAN AND BUY AMERICAN.


I've been in the rust belt since '94 and have witnessed many auto plants close and move across the border.  It sucks. The landscape changed drastically from middle class to lower income.

But to think that Trump is going to bring those jobs back is ludicrous. The automakers (let's say the Big 3) have no reason to bring those jobs back to then pay a higher wage for the same work they get at 10cents on the dollar in Mexico.

I'm all for locals supporting locals, but this idea that manufacturing is going to come back because of Trump is rather foolish. I hope it does, but I'm not holding my breath for it.

Was their dash south of the border also an effort to get out from under the unions? Business with unions seems from my POV to be both expensive and time consuming. Difficult.

A fair number of these factories found a happy middle ground in the southern states.

I would've to say yes.

The UAW, as much as it wants to portray itself as having made great contract negotiations with/for it's members, also made it difficult for the automakers to compete against cheaper Japanese imports in the mid-late 80's, causing the brands to start looking across the border.

I work in the automotive industry and have been in it for over 14 years. My father worked for a contractor of Ford/GM during the 90's. I, just like my dad back in the 90's, have seen the unions come in and promise plenty but deliver almost nothing. It's a joke.

Another issue with the auto union is the fact that  once you got in, it was almost impossible to get fired, so the quality of work dropped rapidly once the employees knew there were no repercussions for their actions. That, along with the "Job Title" aspect of things, meaning if you were in the "stamping department" you couldn't get asked to go to another part of the plant because it wasn't your job title, no matter how slow you were. So instead of having one employee do different jobs, the plant had to higher another person, even if the first employee was just standing around all day.

Unions worked but the abuse of power that came with them was ridiculous.

I'm a union member and I'm glad for it because I have fantastic health benefits (especially compared to my nonexistent health plan when I was a young adult.) Lots of people with my sort of background are opposed to labor unions because all they see are dues being taken out of paychecks. They fail to see the benefits like sick pay/paid vacation/health insurance/dental insurance/increased wages/etc. It's a shame because a lot of folks from my old stomping grounds have basically shot themselves in the face by supporting union breaking. They make nowhere near as much money as my household does.

The auto industry wouldn't be able to undercut the Rust Belt states if the southern states took care of their people better. No matter what, these auto companies need access to the American market, so if everybody stuck together they'd have the industry over a barrel when it comes to worker compensation. Oh, well. Folks do what they're going to do.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on December 30, 2017, 02:26:24 PM
Unemployment dropped from 10% to 4.7% (5.3%) during the Obama years.  It is 4.1% now, a drop of 0.6% in Trumps first year. It is still is 0.2% higher than it was at it's lowest point around 2000 (3.9%).
So you agree that unemployment under President Donald J. Trump is lower than any point since December 2000? Great!

President Donald J. Trump has taken 1) unemployment to lows not seen in 17 full years and 2) the US stock market to highs never seen at any time in history.

I hope facts don't trigger you.

MAGA.

Is typing the word "president" in bold font giving you a sexual thrill or something?  Seriously, what's with that?
It is because so many American citizens tried to claim that he isn't their president.

Surprise!  He is their president!  Any will be for the next three years!  And most likely the following four years!

Mmmm...ok.  But no one here is claiming he isn't the president.

Nah, I don't accept Trump as President and I don't feel I should have to follow anything he says. As far as I'm concerned, America is like Mad Max right now. Anarchy and anything goes.
Your screen name seems very accurate.

Recognize one of your own kind, huh? Small world. Welcome, brethren!
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: retiringearly on December 30, 2017, 03:49:40 PM
Unemployment dropped from 10% to 4.7% (5.3%) during the Obama years.  It is 4.1% now, a drop of 0.6% in Trumps first year. It is still is 0.2% higher than it was at it's lowest point around 2000 (3.9%).
So you agree that unemployment under President Donald J. Trump is lower than any point since December 2000? Great!

President Donald J. Trump has taken 1) unemployment to lows not seen in 17 full years and 2) the US stock market to highs never seen at any time in history.

I hope facts don't trigger you.

MAGA.

Is typing the word "president" in bold font giving you a sexual thrill or something?  Seriously, what's with that?
It is because so many American citizens tried to claim that he isn't their president.

Surprise!  He is their president!  Any will be for the next three years!  And most likely the following four years!

Mmmm...ok.  But no one here is claiming he isn't the president.

Nah, I don't accept Trump as President and I don't feel I should have to follow anything he says. As far as I'm concerned, America is like Mad Max right now. Anarchy and anything goes.
Your screen name seems very accurate.

You're kind of an asshole, aren't you?
No, not even close.

Care to back up your assertions with facts?

I realize that you don't like facts, you prefer wild emotions.  And that is fine as long as you don't want to thrive in the real world.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: bacchi on December 30, 2017, 04:25:23 PM
Don't feed the troll.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: wenchsenior on December 30, 2017, 04:41:16 PM
Unemployment dropped from 10% to 4.7% (5.3%) during the Obama years.  It is 4.1% now, a drop of 0.6% in Trumps first year. It is still is 0.2% higher than it was at it's lowest point around 2000 (3.9%).
So you agree that unemployment under President Donald J. Trump is lower than any point since December 2000? Great!

President Donald J. Trump has taken 1) unemployment to lows not seen in 17 full years and 2) the US stock market to highs never seen at any time in history.

I hope facts don't trigger you.

MAGA.

Is typing the word "president" in bold font giving you a sexual thrill or something?  Seriously, what's with that?
It is because so many American citizens tried to claim that he isn't their president.

Surprise!  He is their president!  Any will be for the next three years!  And most likely the following four years!

Mmmm...ok.  But no one here is claiming he isn't the president.

Nah, I don't accept Trump as President and I don't feel I should have to follow anything he says. As far as I'm concerned, America is like Mad Max right now. Anarchy and anything goes.
Your screen name seems very accurate.

You're kind of an asshole, aren't you?
No, not even close.

Care to back up your assertions with facts?

I realize that you don't like facts, you prefer wild emotions.  And that is fine as long as you don't want to thrive in the real world.

What assertions and facts are you talking about? Do you even realize how silly you sound?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: retiringearly on December 30, 2017, 05:11:29 PM
Unemployment dropped from 10% to 4.7% (5.3%) during the Obama years.  It is 4.1% now, a drop of 0.6% in Trumps first year. It is still is 0.2% higher than it was at it's lowest point around 2000 (3.9%).
So you agree that unemployment under President Donald J. Trump is lower than any point since December 2000? Great!

President Donald J. Trump has taken 1) unemployment to lows not seen in 17 full years and 2) the US stock market to highs never seen at any time in history.

I hope facts don't trigger you.

MAGA.

Is typing the word "president" in bold font giving you a sexual thrill or something?  Seriously, what's with that?
It is because so many American citizens tried to claim that he isn't their president.

Surprise!  He is their president!  Any will be for the next three years!  And most likely the following four years!

Mmmm...ok.  But no one here is claiming he isn't the president.

Nah, I don't accept Trump as President and I don't feel I should have to follow anything he says. As far as I'm concerned, America is like Mad Max right now. Anarchy and anything goes.
Your screen name seems very accurate.

You're kind of an asshole, aren't you?
No, not even close.

Care to back up your assertions with facts?

I realize that you don't like facts, you prefer wild emotions.  And that is fine as long as you don't want to thrive in the real world.

What assertions and facts are you talking about? Do you even realize how silly you sound?
I wasn't the one that called another member an asshole.

Your condescension and ignorance are why President Donald J. Trump was elected.  And why he will be re-elected.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on December 30, 2017, 05:32:54 PM
Unemployment dropped from 10% to 4.7% (5.3%) during the Obama years.  It is 4.1% now, a drop of 0.6% in Trumps first year. It is still is 0.2% higher than it was at it's lowest point around 2000 (3.9%).
So you agree that unemployment under President Donald J. Trump is lower than any point since December 2000? Great!

President Donald J. Trump has taken 1) unemployment to lows not seen in 17 full years and 2) the US stock market to highs never seen at any time in history.

I hope facts don't trigger you.

MAGA.

Is typing the word "president" in bold font giving you a sexual thrill or something?  Seriously, what's with that?
It is because so many American citizens tried to claim that he isn't their president.

Surprise!  He is their president!  Any will be for the next three years!  And most likely the following four years!

Mmmm...ok.  But no one here is claiming he isn't the president.

Nah, I don't accept Trump as President and I don't feel I should have to follow anything he says. As far as I'm concerned, America is like Mad Max right now. Anarchy and anything goes.
Your screen name seems very accurate.

You're kind of an asshole, aren't you?
No, not even close.

Care to back up your assertions with facts?

I realize that you don't like facts, you prefer wild emotions.  And that is fine as long as you don't want to thrive in the real world.

What assertions and facts are you talking about? Do you even realize how silly you sound?
I wasn't the one that called another member an asshole.

Your condescension and ignorance are why President Donald J. Trump was elected.  And why he will be re-elected.

Git-R-Dun!
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 30, 2017, 06:45:44 PM
Trickle down! GE is laying off 12,000 workers in 2018. AT&T announce they are laying off 1,400. 555 layoffs at Carrier. More layoffs in steel and mining. Merry Christmas from Trumpland!
Unemployment is lower today than it has been at any point since December 2000.
Don't let facts get in the way of your blind, ignorant hatred.

MAGA.

Average Monthly Job Gains
-January through November
2017: +174,000
2016: +190,000
2015: +225,000
2014: +249,000
2013: +205,000
2012: +173,000
2011: +171,000
2010:  +89,000

The economy added more jobs in each year of Obama's 2nd term than Trump's first.

Fact.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: retiringearly on December 30, 2017, 06:50:43 PM
Trickle down! GE is laying off 12,000 workers in 2018. AT&T announce they are laying off 1,400. 555 layoffs at Carrier. More layoffs in steel and mining. Merry Christmas from Trumpland!
Unemployment is lower today than it has been at any point since December 2000.
Don't let facts get in the way of your blind, ignorant hatred.

MAGA.

Average Monthly Job Gains
-January through November
2017: +174,000
2016: +190,000
2015: +225,000
2014: +249,000
2013: +205,000
2012: +173,000
2011: +171,000
2010:  +89,000

The economy added more jobs in each year of Obama's 2nd term than Trump's first.

Fact.
And what were the unemployment figures for all of those years?

Yes, they were lowest under President Donald J. Trump.

Fact.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: wenchsenior on December 30, 2017, 07:08:45 PM
Unemployment dropped from 10% to 4.7% (5.3%) during the Obama years.  It is 4.1% now, a drop of 0.6% in Trumps first year. It is still is 0.2% higher than it was at it's lowest point around 2000 (3.9%).
So you agree that unemployment under President Donald J. Trump is lower than any point since December 2000? Great!

President Donald J. Trump has taken 1) unemployment to lows not seen in 17 full years and 2) the US stock market to highs never seen at any time in history.

I hope facts don't trigger you.

MAGA.

Is typing the word "president" in bold font giving you a sexual thrill or something?  Seriously, what's with that?
It is because so many American citizens tried to claim that he isn't their president.

Surprise!  He is their president!  Any will be for the next three years!  And most likely the following four years!

Mmmm...ok.  But no one here is claiming he isn't the president.

Nah, I don't accept Trump as President and I don't feel I should have to follow anything he says. As far as I'm concerned, America is like Mad Max right now. Anarchy and anything goes.
Your screen name seems very accurate.

You're kind of an asshole, aren't you?
No, not even close.

Care to back up your assertions with facts?

I realize that you don't like facts, you prefer wild emotions.  And that is fine as long as you don't want to thrive in the real world.

What assertions and facts are you talking about? Do you even realize how silly you sound?
I wasn't the one that called another member an asshole.

Your condescension and ignorance are why President Donald J. Trump was elected.  And why he will be re-elected.

Not sure what ignorance you are referring to either.  But by all means, keep digging.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 30, 2017, 07:23:17 PM
Trickle down! GE is laying off 12,000 workers in 2018. AT&T announce they are laying off 1,400. 555 layoffs at Carrier. More layoffs in steel and mining. Merry Christmas from Trumpland!
Unemployment is lower today than it has been at any point since December 2000.
Don't let facts get in the way of your blind, ignorant hatred.

MAGA.

Average Monthly Job Gains
-January through November
2017: +174,000
2016: +190,000
2015: +225,000
2014: +249,000
2013: +205,000
2012: +173,000
2011: +171,000
2010:  +89,000

The economy added more jobs in each year of Obama's 2nd term than Trump's first.

Fact.
And what were the unemployment figures for all of those years?

Yes, they were lowest under President Donald J. Trump.

Fact.

Thanks, Obama!
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: retiringearly on December 30, 2017, 07:31:59 PM
Unemployment dropped from 10% to 4.7% (5.3%) during the Obama years.  It is 4.1% now, a drop of 0.6% in Trumps first year. It is still is 0.2% higher than it was at it's lowest point around 2000 (3.9%).
So you agree that unemployment under President Donald J. Trump is lower than any point since December 2000? Great!

President Donald J. Trump has taken 1) unemployment to lows not seen in 17 full years and 2) the US stock market to highs never seen at any time in history.

I hope facts don't trigger you.

MAGA.

Is typing the word "president" in bold font giving you a sexual thrill or something?  Seriously, what's with that?
It is because so many American citizens tried to claim that he isn't their president.

Surprise!  He is their president!  Any will be for the next three years!  And most likely the following four years!

Mmmm...ok.  But no one here is claiming he isn't the president.

Nah, I don't accept Trump as President and I don't feel I should have to follow anything he says. As far as I'm concerned, America is like Mad Max right now. Anarchy and anything goes.
Your screen name seems very accurate.

You're kind of an asshole, aren't you?
No, not even close.

Care to back up your assertions with facts?

I realize that you don't like facts, you prefer wild emotions.  And that is fine as long as you don't want to thrive in the real world.

What assertions and facts are you talking about? Do you even realize how silly you sound?
I wasn't the one that called another member an asshole.

Your condescension and ignorance are why President Donald J. Trump was elected.  And why he will be re-elected.

Not sure what ignorance you are referring to either.  But by all means, keep digging.
Can't honestly debate based on facts so you call someone an asshole......so you ignore your own ignorance.

Best of luck to you.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Dabnasty on December 30, 2017, 09:21:35 PM
Don't feed the troll.

But apparently some people have so much troll food just lying around...

The whole point of the very first sarcastic post was that the economy and unemployment tell us little to nothing about the president's abilities.
At least stop quoting the whole thread in your nonsense argument.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on December 30, 2017, 10:24:22 PM
C'mon, folks. Let's be a little more civilized here. Even up on Hillbilly Mountain, we still had the courtesy to take the Marlboro out of our mouth before we told someone to kiss our ass.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Wise Virgin on December 31, 2017, 07:56:28 AM
We should not be harming each other by talking like this. It feels smart and clever but it's futile really. Changes in the world are only a tiny percent made by talking.

I voted for the Republican this time, and this is how it personally happened for me. I was distressed at what seemed the negative direction of our country, deeply distressed. So for nine days before the election I got down on my marrowbones and prayed a novena, prayed with all my heart - not so much for a specific result, but for the good of my country.

It seemed so hopeless. On the ninth day (election day) I voted, and felt a pervasive sense that all would be well. I turned off the news with its noisy predictions of Inevitable Result, did some little things around the house, and went peacefully to sleep, sleep without dreams.

Sometime after morning coffee I checked the election results, not in a hurry, and smiled and shook my head at the pundits and their stunned "How could we be so wrong." You see they talked a lot. But they didn't listen, and they didn't see, and so they believed in the Inevitable, which turned out not to be so.

Last year, people in my megacorp workplace were still afraid to say "Merry Christmas." This year I heard it from everybody; we even had an Ugly Christmas Sweater day, which was hilarious. I do not regret voting for the Republican this time at all.

Many people were praying, not so much for a specific result, but for deliverance in crisis. We didn't know each other, but God knew all of us, and His communications cannot be intercepted or tampered with.

Talking in harmful or futile ways does not change the world.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: wenchsenior on December 31, 2017, 08:06:00 AM
So I spoke to my formerly Trump supporting father, who now wants to see him impeached (as I noted earlier in the thread).  I asked him why he supported him, in more detail.  What it came down to was essentially, he didn't want to vote for Hillary and because he hadn't followed much political coverage during the campaign, he didn't realize until after the election how terrible a candidate and human being Trump was. 

He had watched the GOP convention, which was one of the few times Trump was very highly scripted and on message, and thought Trump seemed 'fine'.

He has always wanted a business man as president (his own business bias, being a real estate guy himself).  Now he admits that he didn't realize that most of Trump's money came from 'salesman' work/name licensing deals rather than as my dad put it, ACTUAL business. 

He said that he was immensely impressed with Trump's children, which he assumed reflected well on Trump's character.  Then he joked rather bitterly that he's now seriously wondering if those kids are really Trump's, or all the kids are secretly horrible/stupid as well.

He hadn't watched Trump in any public appearances except the debates and brief clips...no interviews etc.  As he said on the phone (paraphrased from multiple minutes of Dad ranting), 'That guy is just a flat out IDIOT, and there is obviously some kind of major psychological problems, too.  He can't say a coherent sentence and he doesn't know anything about ANYTHING!'

When I pointed out that Trump had not changed his behavior at all since the campaign, and that all these characteristics were apparent back then, he just admitted he hadn't bothered to do his homework at all.  He was, in fact, not even aware going into the booth that a very good, older school, conservative candidate (Evan McMullin) was on the ballot for him to consider.

So, there is some detail to answer the OP's question, from a data point of one miserably sorry independent voter.

Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Wise Virgin on December 31, 2017, 08:27:03 AM
I am a supporter of President Trump and of what he is trying to do, but I think he and his family are like highly-colored Marvel comics characters. They were very rich and did and went wherever they pleased, and suddenly they were transported into a 19th-century mansion and are expected to behave in highly artificial ways.

I think our expectations of the presidency are a little toxic, truthfully.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Dabnasty on December 31, 2017, 09:18:23 AM
We should not be harming each other by talking like this. It feels smart and clever but it's futile really. Changes in the world are only a tiny percent made by talking.

I voted for the Republican this time, and this is how it personally happened for me. I was distressed at what seemed the negative direction of our country, deeply distressed. So for nine days before the election I got down on my marrowbones and prayed a novena, prayed with all my heart - not so much for a specific result, but for the good of my country.

It seemed so hopeless. On the ninth day (election day) I voted, and felt a pervasive sense that all would be well. I turned off the news with its noisy predictions of Inevitable Result, did some little things around the house, and went peacefully to sleep, sleep without dreams.

Sometime after morning coffee I checked the election results, not in a hurry, and smiled and shook my head at the pundits and their stunned "How could we be so wrong." You see they talked a lot. But they didn't listen, and they didn't see, and so they believed in the Inevitable, which turned out not to be so.

Last year, people in my megacorp workplace were still afraid to say "Merry Christmas." This year I heard it from everybody; we even had an Ugly Christmas Sweater day, which was hilarious. I do not regret voting for the Republican this time at all.

Many people were praying, not so much for a specific result, but for deliverance in crisis. We didn't know each other, but God knew all of us, and His communications cannot be intercepted or tampered with.

Talking in harmful or futile ways does not change the world.

I had several questions reading your post but I think it's best to take things one at a time in these conversations.

In what ways do you feel the country was going in a negative direction?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Gin1984 on December 31, 2017, 09:52:13 AM
We should not be harming each other by talking like this. It feels smart and clever but it's futile really. Changes in the world are only a tiny percent made by talking.

I voted for the Republican this time, and this is how it personally happened for me. I was distressed at what seemed the negative direction of our country, deeply distressed. So for nine days before the election I got down on my marrowbones and prayed a novena, prayed with all my heart - not so much for a specific result, but for the good of my country.

It seemed so hopeless. On the ninth day (election day) I voted, and felt a pervasive sense that all would be well. I turned off the news with its noisy predictions of Inevitable Result, did some little things around the house, and went peacefully to sleep, sleep without dreams.

Sometime after morning coffee I checked the election results, not in a hurry, and smiled and shook my head at the pundits and their stunned "How could we be so wrong." You see they talked a lot. But they didn't listen, and they didn't see, and so they believed in the Inevitable, which turned out not to be so.

Last year, people in my megacorp workplace were still afraid to say "Merry Christmas." This year I heard it from everybody; we even had an Ugly Christmas Sweater day, which was hilarious. I do not regret voting for the Republican this time at all.

Many people were praying, not so much for a specific result, but for deliverance in crisis. We didn't know each other, but God knew all of us, and His communications cannot be intercepted or tampered with.

Talking in harmful or futile ways does not change the world.
Why were people afraid to say Merry Christmas?  Does your employer not follow federal holidays were Christmas is off, so you believe them to be anti-Christmas?  I truly am confused by this statement.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: bacchi on December 31, 2017, 09:57:17 AM
We should not be harming each other by talking like this. It feels smart and clever but it's futile really. Changes in the world are only a tiny percent made by talking.

I voted for the Republican this time, and this is how it personally happened for me. I was distressed at what seemed the negative direction of our country, deeply distressed. So for nine days before the election I got down on my marrowbones and prayed a novena, prayed with all my heart - not so much for a specific result, but for the good of my country.

It seemed so hopeless. On the ninth day (election day) I voted, and felt a pervasive sense that all would be well. I turned off the news with its noisy predictions of Inevitable Result, did some little things around the house, and went peacefully to sleep, sleep without dreams.

Sometime after morning coffee I checked the election results, not in a hurry, and smiled and shook my head at the pundits and their stunned "How could we be so wrong." You see they talked a lot. But they didn't listen, and they didn't see, and so they believed in the Inevitable, which turned out not to be so.

Last year, people in my megacorp workplace were still afraid to say "Merry Christmas." This year I heard it from everybody; we even had an Ugly Christmas Sweater day, which was hilarious. I do not regret voting for the Republican this time at all.

Many people were praying, not so much for a specific result, but for deliverance in crisis. We didn't know each other, but God knew all of us, and His communications cannot be intercepted or tampered with.

Talking in harmful or futile ways does not change the world.
Why were people afraid to say Merry Christmas?  Does your employer not follow federal holidays were Christmas is off, so you believe them to be anti-Christmas?  I truly am confused by this statement.

Yeah, I've never heard of anyone being "afraid" to say Merry Christmas. I can envision it in Saudi Arabia but not in Chicago or Mobile or Seattle.

My last employer had a mandatory week shutdown, which happened during Christmas week because it was Christmas week.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: bacchi on December 31, 2017, 09:59:05 AM
On a related note, when the market takes its inevitable tumble, which happens every so often, will the Trumpkins accept blame for his failure? Or is this a one-way type of thing?

It's actually bad strategy by Trump to crow about the market. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Wise Virgin on December 31, 2017, 11:51:18 AM
We should not be harming each other by talking like this. It feels smart and clever but it's futile really. Changes in the world are only a tiny percent made by talking.

I voted for the Republican this time, and this is how it personally happened for me. I was distressed at what seemed the negative direction of our country, deeply distressed. So for nine days before the election I got down on my marrowbones and prayed a novena, prayed with all my heart - not so much for a specific result, but for the good of my country.

It seemed so hopeless. On the ninth day (election day) I voted, and felt a pervasive sense that all would be well. I turned off the news with its noisy predictions of Inevitable Result, did some little things around the house, and went peacefully to sleep, sleep without dreams.

Sometime after morning coffee I checked the election results, not in a hurry, and smiled and shook my head at the pundits and their stunned "How could we be so wrong." You see they talked a lot. But they didn't listen, and they didn't see, and so they believed in the Inevitable, which turned out not to be so.

Last year, people in my megacorp workplace were still afraid to say "Merry Christmas." This year I heard it from everybody; we even had an Ugly Christmas Sweater day, which was hilarious. I do not regret voting for the Republican this time at all.

Many people were praying, not so much for a specific result, but for deliverance in crisis. We didn't know each other, but God knew all of us, and His communications cannot be intercepted or tampered with.

Talking in harmful or futile ways does not change the world.

I had several questions reading your post but I think it's best to take things one at a time in these conversations.

In what ways do you feel the country was going in a negative direction?
I am required to answer this kind of question.

We were being oppressed by a Jezebel spirit, which emasculates men, causes women to practice destructive sexual magic, incites mothers to murder their children, and causes discord between brothers and friends.

The Jezebel spirit hates Christmas and everything it means. That is why saying "Merry Christmas" keeps coming up, it's quite relevant spiritually.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: ncornilsen on December 31, 2017, 11:52:19 AM
Once we kill NAFTA we can enter agricultural trade agreements.  No sense in us growing avocados in greenhouses or Mexico trying to grow crappy apples.  But most things we use and consume can be made in our country.  Cars being the prime example.  The most dangerous people in society are those with nothing to lose.  And I've lived long enough in the rust belt to see this lost generation of men and women who cannot find work and thus have no dignity and put off home ownership and having children.  The U3 unemployment rate is also bullshit.  Look at the number of people on food stamps for crying out loud.  We are going to MAKE AMERICAN AND BUY AMERICAN.


I've been in the rust belt since '94 and have witnessed many auto plants close and move across the border.  It sucks. The landscape changed drastically from middle class to lower income.

But to think that Trump is going to bring those jobs back is ludicrous. The automakers (let's say the Big 3) have no reason to bring those jobs back to then pay a higher wage for the same work they get at 10cents on the dollar in Mexico.

I'm all for locals supporting locals, but this idea that manufacturing is going to come back because of Trump is rather foolish. I hope it does, but I'm not holding my breath for it.

Was their dash south of the border also an effort to get out from under the unions? Business with unions seems from my POV to be both expensive and time consuming. Difficult.

A fair number of these factories found a happy middle ground in the southern states.

I would've to say yes.

The UAW, as much as it wants to portray itself as having made great contract negotiations with/for it's members, also made it difficult for the automakers to compete against cheaper Japanese imports in the mid-late 80's, causing the brands to start looking across the border.

I work in the automotive industry and have been in it for over 14 years. My father worked for a contractor of Ford/GM during the 90's. I, just like my dad back in the 90's, have seen the unions come in and promise plenty but deliver almost nothing. It's a joke.

Another issue with the auto union is the fact that  once you got in, it was almost impossible to get fired, so the quality of work dropped rapidly once the employees knew there were no repercussions for their actions. That, along with the "Job Title" aspect of things, meaning if you were in the "stamping department" you couldn't get asked to go to another part of the plant because it wasn't your job title, no matter how slow you were. So instead of having one employee do different jobs, the plant had to higher another person, even if the first employee was just standing around all day.

Unions worked but the abuse of power that came with them was ridiculous.

I'm a union member and I'm glad for it because I have fantastic health benefits (especially compared to my nonexistent health plan when I was a young adult.) Lots of people with my sort of background are opposed to labor unions because all they see are dues being taken out of paychecks. They fail to see the benefits like sick pay/paid vacation/health insurance/dental insurance/increased wages/etc. It's a shame because a lot of folks from my old stomping grounds have basically shot themselves in the face by supporting union breaking. They make nowhere near as much money as my household does.

The auto industry wouldn't be able to undercut the Rust Belt states if the southern states took care of their people better. No matter what, these auto companies need access to the American market, so if everybody stuck together they'd have the industry over a barrel when it comes to worker compensation. Oh, well. Folks do what they're going to do.


I guess it all depends on the employer/union.

I'm non-union and having been looking for work for the past 4 months closer to home and coming across 2 dealerships with unions, I'm glad I'm not in them. Both had a maximum hourly salary $6+ less than my workplace. Benefits are pretty much equal and no unions dues for me.

Again, I guess it all depends on the employer and the actual union. Glad to know yours is treating you good.

Indeed. I work in a non-union shop that gives benefits quite lavish compared to any of the union shops I worked in. And it isnt even the benefits and wages that make a union shop uncompetitive, its the 20-25% increase in admin overhead needed to administrate the union; the reduced flexibility, and that unions have a financial interest in creating conflict and strife to stay relevant, even in places that treat thier employees well. They have to go more and more wacky with thier demands to seem like they're doing something.

Alot of this doesn't apply to trade unions like electricians and pipe fitters... these unions seem to have thier incentives aligned with the workers and employers in a way that makes it work fairly well - I'm speaking more about unions in manufacturing facilities... these unions have financial incentives that are out of line with the employers, and only tangentially aligned with the workers.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Kris on December 31, 2017, 12:05:13 PM
We should not be harming each other by talking like this. It feels smart and clever but it's futile really. Changes in the world are only a tiny percent made by talking.

I voted for the Republican this time, and this is how it personally happened for me. I was distressed at what seemed the negative direction of our country, deeply distressed. So for nine days before the election I got down on my marrowbones and prayed a novena, prayed with all my heart - not so much for a specific result, but for the good of my country.

It seemed so hopeless. On the ninth day (election day) I voted, and felt a pervasive sense that all would be well. I turned off the news with its noisy predictions of Inevitable Result, did some little things around the house, and went peacefully to sleep, sleep without dreams.

Sometime after morning coffee I checked the election results, not in a hurry, and smiled and shook my head at the pundits and their stunned "How could we be so wrong." You see they talked a lot. But they didn't listen, and they didn't see, and so they believed in the Inevitable, which turned out not to be so.

Last year, people in my megacorp workplace were still afraid to say "Merry Christmas." This year I heard it from everybody; we even had an Ugly Christmas Sweater day, which was hilarious. I do not regret voting for the Republican this time at all.

Many people were praying, not so much for a specific result, but for deliverance in crisis. We didn't know each other, but God knew all of us, and His communications cannot be intercepted or tampered with.

Talking in harmful or futile ways does not change the world.

I had several questions reading your post but I think it's best to take things one at a time in these conversations.

In what ways do you feel the country was going in a negative direction?
I am required to answer this kind of question.

We were being oppressed by a Jezebel spirit, which emasculates men, causes women to practice destructive sexual magic, incites mothers to murder their children, and causes discord between brothers and friends.

The Jezebel spirit hates Christmas and everything it means. That is why saying "Merry Christmas" keeps coming up, it's quite relevant spiritually.

Plus, now that Trump is in office, we can all say, “grab ‘em by the pussy!” In public!

Also quite spiritually relevant.

Oh, brother...
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Wise Virgin on December 31, 2017, 12:25:57 PM
We should not be harming each other by talking like this. It feels smart and clever but it's futile really. Changes in the world are only a tiny percent made by talking.

I voted for the Republican this time, and this is how it personally happened for me. I was distressed at what seemed the negative direction of our country, deeply distressed. So for nine days before the election I got down on my marrowbones and prayed a novena, prayed with all my heart - not so much for a specific result, but for the good of my country.

It seemed so hopeless. On the ninth day (election day) I voted, and felt a pervasive sense that all would be well. I turned off the news with its noisy predictions of Inevitable Result, did some little things around the house, and went peacefully to sleep, sleep without dreams.

Sometime after morning coffee I checked the election results, not in a hurry, and smiled and shook my head at the pundits and their stunned "How could we be so wrong." You see they talked a lot. But they didn't listen, and they didn't see, and so they believed in the Inevitable, which turned out not to be so.

Last year, people in my megacorp workplace were still afraid to say "Merry Christmas." This year I heard it from everybody; we even had an Ugly Christmas Sweater day, which was hilarious. I do not regret voting for the Republican this time at all.

Many people were praying, not so much for a specific result, but for deliverance in crisis. We didn't know each other, but God knew all of us, and His communications cannot be intercepted or tampered with.

Talking in harmful or futile ways does not change the world.

I had several questions reading your post but I think it's best to take things one at a time in these conversations.

In what ways do you feel the country was going in a negative direction?
I am required to answer this kind of question.

We were being oppressed by a Jezebel spirit, which emasculates men, causes women to practice destructive sexual magic, incites mothers to murder their children, and causes discord between brothers and friends.

The Jezebel spirit hates Christmas and everything it means. That is why saying "Merry Christmas" keeps coming up, it's quite relevant spiritually.

Plus, now that Trump is in office, we can all say, “grab ‘em by the pussy!” In public!

Also quite spiritually relevant.

Oh, brother...
Do you notice more people saying that?

I notice long-rotted sores of sexual oppression breaking open and draining at last, don't you? Hollywood, politicians who specialized in virtue-signaling, media figures.

This is good.

It wasn't women with pussy hats on their heads that gave us this deliverance, either.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Kris on December 31, 2017, 12:48:58 PM
We should not be harming each other by talking like this. It feels smart and clever but it's futile really. Changes in the world are only a tiny percent made by talking.

I voted for the Republican this time, and this is how it personally happened for me. I was distressed at what seemed the negative direction of our country, deeply distressed. So for nine days before the election I got down on my marrowbones and prayed a novena, prayed with all my heart - not so much for a specific result, but for the good of my country.

It seemed so hopeless. On the ninth day (election day) I voted, and felt a pervasive sense that all would be well. I turned off the news with its noisy predictions of Inevitable Result, did some little things around the house, and went peacefully to sleep, sleep without dreams.

Sometime after morning coffee I checked the election results, not in a hurry, and smiled and shook my head at the pundits and their stunned "How could we be so wrong." You see they talked a lot. But they didn't listen, and they didn't see, and so they believed in the Inevitable, which turned out not to be so.

Last year, people in my megacorp workplace were still afraid to say "Merry Christmas." This year I heard it from everybody; we even had an Ugly Christmas Sweater day, which was hilarious. I do not regret voting for the Republican this time at all.

Many people were praying, not so much for a specific result, but for deliverance in crisis. We didn't know each other, but God knew all of us, and His communications cannot be intercepted or tampered with.

Talking in harmful or futile ways does not change the world.

I had several questions reading your post but I think it's best to take things one at a time in these conversations.

In what ways do you feel the country was going in a negative direction?
I am required to answer this kind of question.

We were being oppressed by a Jezebel spirit, which emasculates men, causes women to practice destructive sexual magic, incites mothers to murder their children, and causes discord between brothers and friends.

The Jezebel spirit hates Christmas and everything it means. That is why saying "Merry Christmas" keeps coming up, it's quite relevant spiritually.

Plus, now that Trump is in office, we can all say, “grab ‘em by the pussy!” In public!

Also quite spiritually relevant.

Oh, brother...
Do you notice more people saying that?

I notice long-rotted sores of sexual oppression breaking open and draining at last, don't you? Hollywood, politicians who specialized in virtue-signaling, media figures.

This is good.

It wasn't women with pussy hats on their heads that gave us this deliverance, either.

Before Trump, the word pussy would be bleeped on TV or asterisked in print media, as being too off-color for polite audiences.

No more. Now, we’re treated to the word in all its glory. Little kids get to hear it before they’re even old enough to know what it means. Little girls get to learn what it means, and know the president is fine with them being grabbed there. And that he supported a man for the Alabama senate who preyed on young girls.

So, uh, thanks Trump?

Sores of sexual oppression breaking open, eh?

Huh.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Wise Virgin on December 31, 2017, 01:12:23 PM
Kris, (the quote is getting so long I left it off) -

The Jezebel spirit preys especially on women who have been brutalized by male power.

Sometimes it is difficult to tell what is of human origin and what is from a wicked spirit. The way to know for sure is, when the evil is reaching its zenith, the spirit wants to show its face. It makes its victims mock themselves. Picture the worst kind of bully in school, taking down the littlest kid, smacking him with his own hand and jeering, "Stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself."

That is what a pussy hat is.

The Jezebel spirit comes along after other spirits and opportunistically infects the wounds.

We've all fallen for some kind of spirit or another.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: wenchsenior on December 31, 2017, 01:34:24 PM
Wow.  This thread certainly took an unexpected turn.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on December 31, 2017, 01:36:33 PM
Personally, I think the worst thing about the Jezebel spirit is that I have to do all the cooking in my home, because my wife absolutely refuses to make anything other than pancakes and pasta. Who wants to eat pancakes and pasta everyday? Not me. Men unite and overthrow your oppressors!
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Kris on December 31, 2017, 01:36:52 PM
Virgin:

I am reinserting the quote, because the person you voted for as president is a serial brutalizer of reluctant women. Which we know because he has said so. And bragged about it.


Before Trump, the word pussy would be bleeped on TV or asterisked in print media, as being too off-color for polite audiences.

No more. Now, we’re treated to the word in all its glory. Little kids get to hear it before they’re even old enough to know what it means. Little girls get to learn what it means, and know the president is fine with them being grabbed there. And that he supported a man for the Alabama senate who preyed on young girls.

So, uh, thanks Trump?

Sores of sexual oppression breaking open, eh?

Huh.

The hat you are referring to is pink yarn. With cat ears.

Because the non-vulgar/non-Trump meaning of that word is cat. 

Blaming yarn for the wickedness in the soul of a brutalizer of women is sick. It's also a desperate attempt to turn attention from his wickedness.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: PKFFW on December 31, 2017, 01:40:54 PM
People afraid to say Merry Christmas, Jezebel spirits, destructive sexual magic, mothers killing children, discord between brothers(thankfully not sisters apparently)......

And after 9 days of praying a novena on your marrowbones, receiving God's un-tampered with communications, Trump as President was the answer. 

Wow, just wow.

Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Wise Virgin on December 31, 2017, 01:56:00 PM
You could go back to arguing around in circles and vilifying each other.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on December 31, 2017, 01:57:50 PM
If the Jezebels do witchcraft, do they weigh the same as a duck?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Gin1984 on December 31, 2017, 02:17:20 PM
We should not be harming each other by talking like this. It feels smart and clever but it's futile really. Changes in the world are only a tiny percent made by talking.

I voted for the Republican this time, and this is how it personally happened for me. I was distressed at what seemed the negative direction of our country, deeply distressed. So for nine days before the election I got down on my marrowbones and prayed a novena, prayed with all my heart - not so much for a specific result, but for the good of my country.

It seemed so hopeless. On the ninth day (election day) I voted, and felt a pervasive sense that all would be well. I turned off the news with its noisy predictions of Inevitable Result, did some little things around the house, and went peacefully to sleep, sleep without dreams.

Sometime after morning coffee I checked the election results, not in a hurry, and smiled and shook my head at the pundits and their stunned "How could we be so wrong." You see they talked a lot. But they didn't listen, and they didn't see, and so they believed in the Inevitable, which turned out not to be so.

Last year, people in my megacorp workplace were still afraid to say "Merry Christmas." This year I heard it from everybody; we even had an Ugly Christmas Sweater day, which was hilarious. I do not regret voting for the Republican this time at all.

Many people were praying, not so much for a specific result, but for deliverance in crisis. We didn't know each other, but God knew all of us, and His communications cannot be intercepted or tampered with.

Talking in harmful or futile ways does not change the world.

I had several questions reading your post but I think it's best to take things one at a time in these conversations.

In what ways do you feel the country was going in a negative direction?
I am required to answer this kind of question.

We were being oppressed by a Jezebel spirit, which emasculates men, causes women to practice destructive sexual magic, incites mothers to murder their children, and causes discord between brothers and friends.

The Jezebel spirit hates Christmas and everything it means. That is why saying "Merry Christmas" keeps coming up, it's quite relevant spiritually.
Is this sarcasm?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Wise Virgin on December 31, 2017, 02:18:53 PM
We should not be harming each other by talking like this. It feels smart and clever but it's futile really. Changes in the world are only a tiny percent made by talking.

I voted for the Republican this time, and this is how it personally happened for me. I was distressed at what seemed the negative direction of our country, deeply distressed. So for nine days before the election I got down on my marrowbones and prayed a novena, prayed with all my heart - not so much for a specific result, but for the good of my country.

It seemed so hopeless. On the ninth day (election day) I voted, and felt a pervasive sense that all would be well. I turned off the news with its noisy predictions of Inevitable Result, did some little things around the house, and went peacefully to sleep, sleep without dreams.

Sometime after morning coffee I checked the election results, not in a hurry, and smiled and shook my head at the pundits and their stunned "How could we be so wrong." You see they talked a lot. But they didn't listen, and they didn't see, and so they believed in the Inevitable, which turned out not to be so.

Last year, people in my megacorp workplace were still afraid to say "Merry Christmas." This year I heard it from everybody; we even had an Ugly Christmas Sweater day, which was hilarious. I do not regret voting for the Republican this time at all.

Many people were praying, not so much for a specific result, but for deliverance in crisis. We didn't know each other, but God knew all of us, and His communications cannot be intercepted or tampered with.

Talking in harmful or futile ways does not change the world.

I had several questions reading your post but I think it's best to take things one at a time in these conversations.

In what ways do you feel the country was going in a negative direction?
I am required to answer this kind of question.

We were being oppressed by a Jezebel spirit, which emasculates men, causes women to practice destructive sexual magic, incites mothers to murder their children, and causes discord between brothers and friends.

The Jezebel spirit hates Christmas and everything it means. That is why saying "Merry Christmas" keeps coming up, it's quite relevant spiritually.
Is this sarcasm?
Nope.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: sol on December 31, 2017, 02:21:51 PM
Wow.  This thread certainly took an unexpected turn.

Yes, it is suddenly the best thread on the entire forum.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: NoStacheOhio on December 31, 2017, 02:31:03 PM
People who pray instead of thinking are my favorite.
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: partgypsy on December 31, 2017, 02:32:01 PM
I'm going to name my next band "Jezebel Spirit".
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: bacchi on December 31, 2017, 02:50:34 PM
How did this Jezebel spirit manifest itself at your megacorp? Was there a memo about "Merry Christmas?" Or were other religions just acknowledged?

Was the Christmas party cancelled and Hanukkah celebrated instead? Or perhaps everyone was encouraged to meet on the solstice at midnight?

Was there a hidden sign/signal/handshake to indicate that you're a Christian?

Do you work in Saudi Arabia or another Muslim country?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: shuffler on December 31, 2017, 03:08:00 PM
In what ways do you feel the country was going in a negative direction?
I am required to answer this kind of question.
Your phrasing struck me, and I'm curious why/how you are required to answer the question?
Title: Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
Post by: Wise Virgin on December 31, 2017, 03:08:09 PM