Author Topic: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?  (Read 101426 times)

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #900 on: February 08, 2018, 12:15:57 PM »

the gastropod did in fact directly refute GRS's arguement by contending that republican principles do not have this fundamental difference that GRS was claiming they did.

Wow man.  GRS made a claim about Democratic principles, and gastropod defended those democratic principles by saying "what about..."  The Democratic principles were not defended.  The original claim:

"Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance."

The broader claim, that this is in contrast to the Republican party, of course makes it relevant.

So was gastropod claiming Liberals are not authoritarian?  If so, then the presented arguments were, in fact, whataboutisms.  That would be the use as Democrats are trying to apply it to Trump.

If instead gastropod was claiming that both are authoritarian, then yes, you are correct Dabnasty, the presentation of examples of Republicans being authoritarian do not fall into the logical fallacy.  I did make an assumption in calling it whataboutism, but in my defense, I was making fun of people who call it out.  The inherent assumptions you have to make about both sides of the argument for a charge like that to stick make it unsuitable for its deployment where I'm seeing it nowadays.  So instead of having real conversations we devolve into rhetorical bullshit because we're trying to point out logical fallacies instead of trying to understand each other.  We're trying to be clever and cute instead of identifying common ground.

Instead of addressing the obvious issue when we perceive the logical fallacy, like I should have, we just shout whataboutism and congratulate ourselves on being clever.  I don't have any real hope of changing a person's mind on the relative authoritarian tendencies of our two major parties though, so I let it go.

But perhaps there was an opportunity there.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #901 on: February 08, 2018, 12:19:02 PM »
Talk about your hypocritical politically motivated flips.  Remember, the FBI kills/incarcerates black people.  No, I get it, they're going after an enemy of yours so its OK now.

Where exactly can I read about Democrats saying the FBI kills black people? They don't really do much street arrests of low-level (alleged) criminals/random people. So BLM etc have mainly focused on (often poorly trained) local police. Or were you just parroting "liberals hate police", because you are unable to see nuance?

Uh, you'd need to go back to the reaction post-FBI investigation of some of the 2015/2016 police shootings to see the rhetoric I was referring to.  Essentially, whenever the FBI investigates if there were civil rights issues with the local police and doesn't find that they were in fact poorly trained, that it was a "righteous shoot," you see it.  Because clearly that's impossible, because clearly its always racism.  Or were you just parroting "you disagree with me so you must not know what you're talking about," because you have a selective memory?

Kris

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #902 on: February 08, 2018, 12:24:09 PM »
If people are kept in a constant state of mental confusion, cognitive dissonance, then they have trouble thinking for themselves and drawing their own conclusions. I think you're right that the manipulation taking place is fascinating and quite terrifying. I believe this is very deliberate and happens on both sides. For example Obama won a Nobel peace prize but also the first president to drone strike an American on foreign soil with no trial. That's certainly a mind Fuck.

Obama winning the nobel peace prize was straight up stupid.  I don't know what they were thinking.

True. But that choice had nothing to do with the US government. Or Obama himself, for that matter.

simonsez

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #903 on: February 08, 2018, 12:29:12 PM »
If you define life begins with conception, anti-abortion by definition saves lives.  That is my only point.
Serious question: do a non-negligible proportion of the U.S. population define life as starting from that point?

I always thought the vast majority of Americans consider their age and when the anniversary of their age occurs as stemming from birth - NOT conception.  I guess most government and official forms ask for birth date which is unambiguous (a good thing) but any that asked for age would have complications with the pre-birth life definition.

Wexler

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #904 on: February 08, 2018, 12:47:03 PM »

I would eat a cake made out of pedophiles.  As long as it had bbq sauce.

I can't support using violence to make someone bake a cake.  It's stupid.  All other aspects of this are irrelevant.  The state cannot compel a citizen to bake a cake.  There's just no basis for it.  cake is not important enough.  I don't really know how to explain this to anyone that doesn't understand it.  All the complex arguments for the legal basis are so much bullshit.  There's no good reason to compel the creation of cake.  Cake by itself guarantees someone will create it.  All it had to be was delicious.

Or pretty, I guess some people like it because it's pretty.

I don't particularly like cake if I'm honest, I prefer a good brownie.  But we're talking about cake here for some reason.

I don't know where you draw this particular line, but it isn't at the cake level.  At some point, yes, a homosexual should not be able to be denied service based on that.  At the government cake shop sure, because the government shouldn't discriminate, cake for everyone sure.  At the corporate cake store...eh it's hard for a corporation to survive the market with policies like that so I can see them choosing not to, and then I can make a case for dismissing an employee for failing to make the cake.  That's fine.

But I'm certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, it is wrong to use violence to compel the baking of cakes, and that's what happens if you say the owner/operator of a cake shop can't refuse a commission, and his reason why doesn't matter.

Maybe if there was a monopoly in charge of all baked goods, and this was the sole source, then maybe you could identify actual harm that was done.  But you can't.

We can call the baker misguided, homophobic, or stupid.  But there's no law that says you have to bake a cake, and if there is a law that says that we should change it, because it's not right to compel the baking of cakes.

I guess. I mean, those arguments were advanced about who got to sit at the lunch counter (they can just find ANOTHER place to eat!  But what about MUH FREEDUMZ running a private business? How dare the government tell me who to serve?), and our society-through the courts-decided that private businesses don't get to discriminate against protected minority classes. 

And then, as now, people in the majority unlikely to be affected by someone not serving them lunch, selling them a house, or hiring them even when they were qualified, fell back on free market arguments.  Which is convenient, because the free market approaches in the past favored them and permitted widespread discrimination against others.  So, it's easy to be sanguine about it (what's the big deal, dude? It's just a cake.) when it's not terribly likely that anyone is going to discriminate against them.  One of the arguments advanced in this case is that making a cake is a special kind of business that requires creative output and artist buy-in.  I think they are trying to distinguish from the lunch counter case. I'm not convinced.  They are a business selling a service with a design component, but we'll see what the courts say.  Maybe in this shitty timeline we'll have bathroom tilers who refuse to mosaic for minorities, hairdressers who can't possibly work their magic on Asian hair, etc.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #905 on: February 08, 2018, 12:52:26 PM »
If you define life begins with conception, anti-abortion by definition saves lives.  That is my only point.
Serious question: do a non-negligible proportion of the U.S. population define life as starting from that point?

I always thought the vast majority of Americans consider their age and when the anniversary of their age occurs as stemming from birth - NOT conception.  I guess most government and official forms ask for birth date which is unambiguous (a good thing) but any that asked for age would have complications with the pre-birth life definition.

Well there's a couple of different ways to answer that.  In general, the question of age is measured from birth.  Birth being a clearly defined and documented arbitrary point in time vs. conception which is typically less so.  When trying to gather data, the fixed point of date of birth is going to generally be more useful, simply due to availability of the data.

As to where most consider life beginning, well, that's the conversational landmine of our time.  There is an ethically inconvenient arbitrary point in time at which a fertile egg and a viable sperm interact to form a thing that predates the "scientific" definition, which some consider the beginning.  Others consider a later arbitrary time defined "by scientists" post conception but prior to birth that they find ethically convenient.  There is the classic consideration of it beginning at birth.  The members of each of these camps represent significant numbers of population.

The only real minority opinions are that it begins after a clear ability to indicate a desire to live, so that would be 3-4 years old, which I find to be a funny definition that's fun to theorize about.

My personal favorite definition of when life begins, and thus when interference with constitutes murder, is when a fertile person desires conception with another fertile person.  Thus, not having sex with me is murder.  I'd say that's a very minor fraction of the population that holds that view.

Nevertheless, everyone is absolutely convinced theirs is the only definition that makes any sense, and that everyone else is not only wrong, but maliciously so.

Dabnasty

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #906 on: February 08, 2018, 12:55:07 PM »

the gastropod did in fact directly refute GRS's arguement by contending that republican principles do not have this fundamental difference that GRS was claiming they did.

Wow man.  GRS made a claim about Democratic principles, and gastropod defended those democratic principles by saying "what about..."  The Democratic principles were not defended.  The original claim:

"Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance."

Whataboutism is a specific concept. Using the words "what about" does not instantly qualify the statement as a whataboutism.

Quote
The broader claim, that this is in contrast to the Republican party, of course makes it relevant.

So was gastropod claiming Liberals are not authoritarian? 

No.

Quote
If so, then the presented arguments were, in fact, whataboutisms.  That would be the use as Democrats are trying to apply it to Trump.

If instead gastropod was claiming that both are authoritarian, then yes, you are correct Dabnasty, the presentation of examples of Republicans being authoritarian do not fall into the logical fallacy.  I did make an assumption in calling it whataboutism, but in my defense, I was making fun of people who call it out.  The inherent assumptions you have to make about both sides of the argument for a charge like that to stick make it unsuitable for its deployment where I'm seeing it nowadays.  So instead of having real conversations we devolve into rhetorical bullshit because we're trying to point out logical fallacies instead of trying to understand each other.  We're trying to be clever and cute instead of identifying common ground.

Instead of addressing the obvious issue when we perceive the logical fallacy, like I should have, we just shout whataboutism and congratulate ourselves on being clever.  I don't have any real hope of changing a person's mind on the relative authoritarian tendencies of our two major parties though, so I let it go.

But perhaps there was an opportunity there.

partgypsy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #907 on: February 08, 2018, 12:59:07 PM »

the gastropod did in fact directly refute GRS's arguement by contending that republican principles do not have this fundamental difference that GRS was claiming they did.

Wow man.  GRS made a claim about Democratic principles, and gastropod defended those democratic principles by saying "what about..."  The Democratic principles were not defended.  The original claim:

"Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance."

The broader claim, that this is in contrast to the Republican party, of course makes it relevant.

So was gastropod claiming Liberals are not authoritarian?  If so, then the presented arguments were, in fact, whataboutisms.  That would be the use as Democrats are trying to apply it to Trump.

If instead gastropod was claiming that both are authoritarian, then yes, you are correct Dabnasty, the presentation of examples of Republicans being authoritarian do not fall into the logical fallacy.  I did make an assumption in calling it whataboutism, but in my defense, I was making fun of people who call it out.  The inherent assumptions you have to make about both sides of the argument for a charge like that to stick make it unsuitable for its deployment where I'm seeing it nowadays.  So instead of having real conversations we devolve into rhetorical bullshit because we're trying to point out logical fallacies instead of trying to understand each other.  We're trying to be clever and cute instead of identifying common ground.

Instead of addressing the obvious issue when we perceive the logical fallacy, like I should have, we just shout whataboutism and congratulate ourselves on being clever.  I don't have any real hope of changing a person's mind on the relative authoritarian tendencies of our two major parties though, so I let it go.

But perhaps there was an opportunity there.

the original poster never gave any specific claims or instances how Democratic principals are forcing their view on everyone else. We'd have to figure out what was in the mind of that person to respond. However many Republican principals certainly come to mind. What they are doing to restrict access to reproductive services to women comes to mind. 
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 01:02:13 PM by partgypsy »

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #908 on: February 08, 2018, 01:14:12 PM »

I would eat a cake made out of pedophiles.  As long as it had bbq sauce.

I can't support using violence to make someone bake a cake.  It's stupid.  All other aspects of this are irrelevant.  The state cannot compel a citizen to bake a cake.  There's just no basis for it.  cake is not important enough.  I don't really know how to explain this to anyone that doesn't understand it.  All the complex arguments for the legal basis are so much bullshit.  There's no good reason to compel the creation of cake.  Cake by itself guarantees someone will create it.  All it had to be was delicious.

Or pretty, I guess some people like it because it's pretty.

I don't particularly like cake if I'm honest, I prefer a good brownie.  But we're talking about cake here for some reason.

I don't know where you draw this particular line, but it isn't at the cake level.  At some point, yes, a homosexual should not be able to be denied service based on that.  At the government cake shop sure, because the government shouldn't discriminate, cake for everyone sure.  At the corporate cake store...eh it's hard for a corporation to survive the market with policies like that so I can see them choosing not to, and then I can make a case for dismissing an employee for failing to make the cake.  That's fine.

But I'm certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, it is wrong to use violence to compel the baking of cakes, and that's what happens if you say the owner/operator of a cake shop can't refuse a commission, and his reason why doesn't matter.

Maybe if there was a monopoly in charge of all baked goods, and this was the sole source, then maybe you could identify actual harm that was done.  But you can't.

We can call the baker misguided, homophobic, or stupid.  But there's no law that says you have to bake a cake, and if there is a law that says that we should change it, because it's not right to compel the baking of cakes.

I guess. I mean, those arguments were advanced about who got to sit at the lunch counter (they can just find ANOTHER place to eat!  But what about MUH FREEDUMZ running a private business? How dare the government tell me who to serve?), and our society-through the courts-decided that private businesses don't get to discriminate against protected minority classes. 

And then, as now, people in the majority unlikely to be affected by someone not serving them lunch, selling them a house, or hiring them even when they were qualified, fell back on free market arguments.  Which is convenient, because the free market approaches in the past favored them and permitted widespread discrimination against others.  So, it's easy to be sanguine about it (what's the big deal, dude? It's just a cake.) when it's not terribly likely that anyone is going to discriminate against them.  One of the arguments advanced in this case is that making a cake is a special kind of business that requires creative output and artist buy-in.  I think they are trying to distinguish from the lunch counter case. I'm not convinced.  They are a business selling a service with a design component, but we'll see what the courts say.  Maybe in this shitty timeline we'll have bathroom tilers who refuse to mosaic for minorities, hairdressers who can't possibly work their magic on Asian hair, etc.

We're not talking about lunch though.  I get what you're saying.  But this isn't transportation where we're saying you have to sit at the back or wait for the next bus.  This isn't access to food at all (or even right now).  And this isn't a widespread, economy-wide thing.  This is cake.

You can make a need-based argument for the other things.  You don't need cake.

And if you want to make it into a big thing, then it quickly becomes a much bigger thing.  If it isn't about cake, if it's about more than cake, then it has to include what the cake is for.  If that's involved, then the cake is for a wedding, which to the baker is a religious thing, and now you're forcing the baker to bake a cake for use in a religious ceremony.

The state sure-as-shit can't compel us to bake religious cakes.  There's a Jewish holy bread called like Challah or something, it's delicious, I eat it all the time, they sell it at the grocery store.  Right next to the wedding cakes.  It's pretty disingenuous to compare this to the state of affairs that preceded the civil rights movement.  We're not in separate-but-equal territory, we're in, "there's this one jackass that won't sell us a cake, lets bully him using the law" territory.  The minority here is not the homosexual, it's the baker with principles (misguided as those principles may be).  The jews will sell anyone their holy bread, because fuck you pay me.  Not all of the jews mind you, some ultra-orthodox will not permit me to eat their holy bread.  And their discrimination against me is specifically because of my religious affiliation.  There's nothing wrong with that, and it causes me no harm.  Therefore, something something, right, cake.

The state can't force a catholic church to give Jesus crackers to Muslims.  Point of order, at my Baptist church we give Jesus crackers to anyone, just have to be there for snacktime.  They don't check ID cards or nothin'.  The wine is a lie though, it's just juice.

The baker's actions can be wrong without being illegal, is all I'm saying.  And if you don't want to be forced to bake cake you should probably be on his side.  I've got important internet arguing I need to do, I can't be baking cake all day.

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #909 on: February 08, 2018, 01:17:21 PM »
As was mentioned, nobody is compelling the baker to bake anything he doesn't want to.  If he voluntarily chooses to run a bakery, he needs to follow certain ground rules regarding discrimination.  He's free to choose to do something else with his time.  He's free to treat all customers as equal.  If he discriminates against a few customers, then he gets in trouble.  But nobody is forcing him to do anything he doesn't want to.

He operates his business by permission and at the whim of the government.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 01:34:13 PM by GuitarStv »

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #910 on: February 08, 2018, 01:24:23 PM »
But I'm certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, it is wrong to use violence to compel the baking of cakes, and that's what happens if you say the owner/operator of a cake shop can't refuse a commission, and his reason why doesn't matter.

Are you also sure that is wrong to use violence to compel the preparation of sandwiches for black people at your lunch counter?  Because we do that, too.  There was a whole movement about it.



partgypsy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #911 on: February 08, 2018, 01:33:23 PM »
I saw this on another forum regarding whataboutism, made me think of this thread (NOT my words)

Lol what about Obama . Can we try just for a minute to imagine what would have happened if in 2009 /10 when President Obama had just finished his first year in office — what if — he had historically low approval ratings & amid stock market volitality and a perpetual looming government shutdown and IF obama was head deep in the midst of numerous scandals ( from paying off an adulterous porn star affair to an unregistered charity he stole from and he had to close down plus many more), If he called various nations crapholes, and IF he was being investigated by the FBI for obstruction of justice, and many other things by a special prosecutor, & being investigated by Congress and the senate —

What if THEN Obama decided to ORDER the Pentagon to stage an unnecessary elaborate military parade for him. ( while of course saying it was for national pride) right after saying those who dont clap for him when he announces good news are committing treason.

:roll2:I am sure the republicans - if it was reversed - would have had a great sense of humor about the whole thing and said hey obama we know you dont mean any harm we can take a joke — lets just forget everything and call it good. :roll2:

partgypsy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #912 on: February 08, 2018, 01:36:43 PM »

I would eat a cake made out of pedophiles.  As long as it had bbq sauce.

I can't support using violence to make someone bake a cake.  It's stupid.  All other aspects of this are irrelevant.  The state cannot compel a citizen to bake a cake.  There's just no basis for it.  cake is not important enough.  I don't really know how to explain this to anyone that doesn't understand it.  All the complex arguments for the legal basis are so much bullshit.  There's no good reason to compel the creation of cake.  Cake by itself guarantees someone will create it.  All it had to be was delicious.

Or pretty, I guess some people like it because it's pretty.

I don't particularly like cake if I'm honest, I prefer a good brownie.  But we're talking about cake here for some reason.

I don't know where you draw this particular line, but it isn't at the cake level.  At some point, yes, a homosexual should not be able to be denied service based on that.  At the government cake shop sure, because the government shouldn't discriminate, cake for everyone sure.  At the corporate cake store...eh it's hard for a corporation to survive the market with policies like that so I can see them choosing not to, and then I can make a case for dismissing an employee for failing to make the cake.  That's fine.

But I'm certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, it is wrong to use violence to compel the baking of cakes, and that's what happens if you say the owner/operator of a cake shop can't refuse a commission, and his reason why doesn't matter.

Maybe if there was a monopoly in charge of all baked goods, and this was the sole source, then maybe you could identify actual harm that was done.  But you can't.

We can call the baker misguided, homophobic, or stupid.  But there's no law that says you have to bake a cake, and if there is a law that says that we should change it, because it's not right to compel the baking of cakes.

I guess. I mean, those arguments were advanced about who got to sit at the lunch counter (they can just find ANOTHER place to eat!  But what about MUH FREEDUMZ running a private business? How dare the government tell me who to serve?), and our society-through the courts-decided that private businesses don't get to discriminate against protected minority classes. 

And then, as now, people in the majority unlikely to be affected by someone not serving them lunch, selling them a house, or hiring them even when they were qualified, fell back on free market arguments.  Which is convenient, because the free market approaches in the past favored them and permitted widespread discrimination against others.  So, it's easy to be sanguine about it (what's the big deal, dude? It's just a cake.) when it's not terribly likely that anyone is going to discriminate against them.  One of the arguments advanced in this case is that making a cake is a special kind of business that requires creative output and artist buy-in.  I think they are trying to distinguish from the lunch counter case. I'm not convinced.  They are a business selling a service with a design component, but we'll see what the courts say.  Maybe in this shitty timeline we'll have bathroom tilers who refuse to mosaic for minorities, hairdressers who can't possibly work their magic on Asian hair, etc.

We're not talking about lunch though.  I get what you're saying.  But this isn't transportation where we're saying you have to sit at the back or wait for the next bus.  This isn't access to food at all (or even right now).  And this isn't a widespread, economy-wide thing.  This is cake.

You can make a need-based argument for the other things.  You don't need cake.

And if you want to make it into a big thing, then it quickly becomes a much bigger thing.  If it isn't about cake, if it's about more than cake, then it has to include what the cake is for.  If that's involved, then the cake is for a wedding, which to the baker is a religious thing, and now you're forcing the baker to bake a cake for use in a religious ceremony.

The state sure-as-shit can't compel us to bake religious cakes.  There's a Jewish holy bread called like Challah or something, it's delicious, I eat it all the time, they sell it at the grocery store.  Right next to the wedding cakes.  It's pretty disingenuous to compare this to the state of affairs that preceded the civil rights movement.  We're not in separate-but-equal territory, we're in, "there's this one jackass that won't sell us a cake, lets bully him using the law" territory.  The minority here is not the homosexual, it's the baker with principles (misguided as those principles may be).  The jews will sell anyone their holy bread, because fuck you pay me.  Not all of the jews mind you, some ultra-orthodox will not permit me to eat their holy bread.  And their discrimination against me is specifically because of my religious affiliation.  There's nothing wrong with that, and it causes me no harm.  Therefore, something something, right, cake.

The state can't force a catholic church to give Jesus crackers to Muslims.  Point of order, at my Baptist church we give Jesus crackers to anyone, just have to be there for snacktime.  They don't check ID cards or nothin'.  The wine is a lie though, it's just juice.

The baker's actions can be wrong without being illegal, is all I'm saying.  And if you don't want to be forced to bake cake you should probably be on his side.  I've got important internet arguing I need to do, I can't be baking cake all day.

So you are comparing communion crackers to a cake? Uh, you do know the difference between a business and a church, right? They follow different rules. If the baker was actually running a small church yes he can decide who gets to eat his cake.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 01:38:14 PM by partgypsy »

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #913 on: February 08, 2018, 01:47:13 PM »
But I'm certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, it is wrong to use violence to compel the baking of cakes, and that's what happens if you say the owner/operator of a cake shop can't refuse a commission, and his reason why doesn't matter.

Are you also sure that is wrong to use violence to compel the preparation of sandwiches for black people at your lunch counter?  Because we do that, too.  There was a whole movement about it.

I love you Sol.

I can see a difference between lunch, access to lunch, access to your place of business which is ostensibly open to the public, and a wedding cake.  You can make a case for a need for sandwiches.  It's less clear for me on the need for cake.  You can also make a case for the need for a place to eat lunch, and say it's a problem requiring legal protection when everywhere discriminates.  But that's not the case here.

The cake's use was for a religious ceremony that the baker wanted no part of.  It's not the same thing as lunch Sol.  The cake was also cake, which really shouldn't be considered the same as lunch.

As was mentioned, nobody is compelling the baker to bake anything he doesn't want to.  If he voluntarily chooses to run a bakery, he needs to follow certain ground rules regarding discrimination.  He's free to choose to do something else with his time.  He's free to treat all customers as equal.  If he discriminates against a few customers, then he gets in trouble.  But nobody is forcing him to do anything he doesn't want to.

He operates his business by permission and at the whim of the government.

In America that's not how it works.  I can open a business today and immediately begin commerce without consultation with the government at any level.  Anywhere in the country.  The only interference I can expect from government is where there are specific regulations that have been enacted over time to address particular risks of which we all agree we would like some regulation.  So I need certifications and licenses for certain types of business.  If I'm serving cake I probably need some sort of health certification that I've proven I understand "washing things is good."  But I don't need permission.  And if the government compels me to violate my religious principles in order to conduct business then I have no religious freedom.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #914 on: February 08, 2018, 01:52:42 PM »
I saw this on another forum regarding whataboutism, made me think of this thread (NOT my words)

Lol what about Obama . Can we try just for a minute to imagine what would have happened if in 2009 /10 when President Obama had just finished his first year in office — what if — he had historically low approval ratings & amid stock market volitality and a perpetual looming government shutdown and IF obama was head deep in the midst of numerous scandals ( from paying off an adulterous porn star affair to an unregistered charity he stole from and he had to close down plus many more), If he called various nations crapholes, and IF he was being investigated by the FBI for obstruction of justice, and many other things by a special prosecutor, & being investigated by Congress and the senate —

What if THEN Obama decided to ORDER the Pentagon to stage an unnecessary elaborate military parade for him. ( while of course saying it was for national pride) right after saying those who dont clap for him when he announces good news are committing treason.

:roll2:I am sure the republicans - if it was reversed - would have had a great sense of humor about the whole thing and said hey obama we know you dont mean any harm we can take a joke — lets just forget everything and call it good. :roll2:

It's not that hypothetical, we saw the total meltdown of the Republicans when the Democrats used their power to ram massive systemic changes to the U.S. Healthcare system down our throats, you know, doing something that actually changed how basic aspects of 20~25% of our economy function.  The Democrats were very professional and obeyed all the decorum rules throughout though so I guess that's not as bad as being unable to do much and asking for a parade.

FFS ya'all need to stop watching television.

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #915 on: February 08, 2018, 01:53:46 PM »
In America that's not how it works.  I can open a business today and immediately begin commerce without consultation with the government at any level.  Anywhere in the country.  The only interference I can expect from government is where there are specific regulations that have been enacted over time to address particular risks of which we all agree we would like some regulation.  So I need certifications and licenses for certain types of business.  If I'm serving cake I probably need some sort of health certification that I've proven I understand "washing things is good."  But I don't need permission.  And if the government compels me to violate my religious principles in order to conduct business then I have no religious freedom.

OK.  Open a slave trading business, abortion business, or nuclear power plant business and let me know how that works out.  I suspect you'll have some government interference . . . because you can only operate a business with government permission.  You're confusing the very relaxed set of laws to encourage small business that exist, with total anarchy.  One of the few rules that you do have to follow to keep a business open is not to run your business in a way that discriminates against minorities.

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #916 on: February 08, 2018, 02:18:36 PM »
As was mentioned, nobody is compelling the baker to bake anything he doesn't want to.  If he voluntarily chooses to run a bakery, he needs to follow certain ground rules regarding discrimination.  He's free to choose to do something else with his time.  He's free to treat all customers as equal.  If he discriminates against a few customers, then he gets in trouble.  But nobody is forcing him to do anything he doesn't want to.

He operates his business by permission and at the whim of the government.

Whether you get in trouble for discriminating depends on the state and the class that you are discriminating against. The exception proves the rule: of course businesses have a right to discriminate against their customers. It takes explicit legislation to say otherwise. It's just not a guaranteed Constitutional right.

At least not until Randroids take over Congress and appoint enough Supreme Court justices that suddenly discover a constitutional right that has not existed in the prior 2 and a half centuries of our existence...

Just Joe

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #917 on: February 08, 2018, 02:25:02 PM »
To be fair, that's not how the Republicans see those issues.  Everyone of those but the tariffs they (or the portion that supports it) see as saving lives... It's hard to say the government shouldn't be trying to save lives.

I'm not sure that "how they see it" really matters when we're talking about restricting people's freedoms.  If you think Republicans are really motivated to save lives, then they would SURELY oppose a health care law that results in 18 million people losing coverage.  Some tiny fraction of those people will literally die without insurance.  In that light, Republicans killed tens of thousands of American citizens, more than died in 9/11.

Or to take a less immediately morbid example, the mayor of NYC tried to ban oversized sodas.  He thought he was saving lives, too.  Not only did Republicans not support the ban, they openly ridiculed it as an example of what they call "the nanny state".  That's what they call everything that Democrats try to do to save lives.  The idea of NOT saving lives is central to their whole political philosophy, so I'm unconvinced by your argument that their proscriptions on drugs/immigration/abortion are motivated by kindness.
\

For that matter - anything that attempts to clean or keep clean the environment. Repubs seem to reject that effort outright too. Having grown up in a polluted city decades ago, I can tell you things are MUCH better when I visit today. So yeah, I'll support anything reasonable that keeps the air clean and the water clean.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #918 on: February 08, 2018, 02:34:49 PM »

So you are comparing communion crackers to a cake? Uh, you do know the difference between a business and a church, right? They follow different rules. If the baker was actually running a small church yes he can decide who gets to eat his cake.

Ah, but that's the key to the whole thing!  Don't you see!  The baker can decide who gets to eat his cake.  That baker can refuse to sell YOU cake, and ME cake.  As long as he doesn't give a reason why.  His right to refuse service is unquestionably legal.  The state cannot compel you to serve cake.  It cannot compel you to serve cake to everyone.  It cannot compel you to serve cake to anyone.

What's at issue is can he refuse service because of a specific religious reason?  It seems to me he has a constitutional right to do that.  And it isn't obvious to me that there is case law or Supreme Court decisions that make it clear he cannot.  And if we're weighing in on what those rulings should be, the examples you should seriously consider are not the racially segregated lunch counters, it's the entire history of Europe and the Middle East.  Religious freedom may not matter to you personally, but it is far more important than cake.  Especially when, from a practical standpoint, there's absolutely zero issues for a homosexual couple who wants cake.  Not only is there someone who will sell it to them, most vendors will sell it to them.  Almost all I daresay.  This is a case of pride vs. religion and it isn't a fight worth having.  There's no harm, there's not even no cake.

I'm fine not eating your cake sir, carry on.

Scandium

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #919 on: February 08, 2018, 02:38:42 PM »
He operates his business by permission and at the whim of the government.

So hard for me to fathom how so many from, the supposedly, "business party" cannot understand this simple concept. There's a difference between individual and business rights.

partgypsy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #920 on: February 08, 2018, 02:48:46 PM »
Personally I don't really care about the cake issue. For me what bothers me, are Republicans being OK with for example private business owners deciding which part of my health care is covered or even available.  Or an individual pharmacist refusing to fill my birth control pills, based on their personal views. Or an official refusing to grant marriage licenses to gay couples, in a state where gay marriages are now legal.

For any one thing, yeah, the cake thing seems silly because you can go elsewhere. But if the court rules that that's OK, it will set a precedent, all sort of businesses or even individuals can refuse you service, because they don't like this person's status, or performing this particular service even if it's part of their job". You can see how that's a problem. But keep talking about cake. 
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 02:53:18 PM by partgypsy »

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #921 on: February 08, 2018, 02:56:49 PM »
OK.  Open a slave trading business, abortion business, or nuclear power plant business and let me know how that works out.  I suspect you'll have some government interference . . . because you can only operate a business with government permission.  You're confusing the very relaxed set of laws to encourage small business that exist, with total anarchy.  One of the few rules that you do have to follow to keep a business open is not to run your business in a way that discriminates against minorities.

Listen! Sir! I'm sure you aren't comparing my hypothetical cake business to slave trading or abortion?  Can we simmer down please!  Of course there are permits, but those permit you to do certain regulated activities, not business in general.  The very idea that I need government permission to engage in economic activity is moronic.  Of course I do not, this isn't Soviet Russia.  It truly, fundamentally, just does not work that way here.

And you know that because you're only playing dumb here to try and win an internet argument, which is quite frankly a waste of everyone's time.

Listen.

Read rather.

What's the outcome here?  What's the ideal situation?  The Forced Confectionary.

I'm not eating that hate cake I'll tell you that right fucking now.  At that wedding, when those two homosexuals smash that reluctant-violence-produced-cake into each other's faces, and it comes my turn to have a slice, I'm going to pass.  Because the king doesn't berate his chef and then eat his dinner.  You fire the chef.  That's just good safety sense.  Their faces are going to melt off and everyone's going to feel pretty stupid.

The baker did the right thing here, out of the options available to him.  I'm right there with ya if he sent laxative cake to the joyous celebration, or if he lit the two dudes on fire.  This isn't that.  He said "nah."  And it's important that he has the right to refuse.  For all of us.  He probably doesn't have the right to organize all the other cake bakers to refuse, he probably should be nice when he refuses.  But if he can't refuse, if he's to be compelled by the state to produce, I wouldn't eat that cake man, and you're fucking crazy for thinking that's a good idea.

Especially when we're talking about cake.

Because it's just cake, and nobody should have to worry that it might not actually be cake.


TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #922 on: February 08, 2018, 03:00:45 PM »
He operates his business by permission and at the whim of the government.

So hard for me to fathom how so many from, the supposedly, "business party" cannot understand this simple concept. There's a difference between individual and business rights.

What are you even referring to?  If you sell candy bars out of a backpack do you forfeit freedoms just because you are engaged in business?  Of course not.  There are specific legal entities which sacrifice the protections of the individual in order to gain certain other protections, but that's not all "business" it's a specific entity.  A corporation or LLC for instance.  I can do business under my name as myself and I enjoy all the rights, privileges, and responsibilities and obligations of an individual.  There are certain economic advantages to operating in each way, and I have no idea where the specific cake baker fell on this particular spectrum, but I honestly have no clue what you're getting at with this.

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #923 on: February 08, 2018, 03:05:30 PM »
the cake thing seems silly because you can go elsewhere.

Yea, they can always get their cake somewhere different.  Somewhere just as good, but, you know, at another location.  Maybe somewhere separate but equal.

Or, just maybe, the Supreme Court has already ruled that "separate but equal" is never equal because it is separate, and is unconstitutional, and we called in the national guard to force desegregation while the religious right stood on the schoolhouse steps and waved bibles in the air to protest this oppression of their right to oppress.

I can't believe we're seriously having this argument in modern America.  It's like the 60s never happened.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 03:18:45 PM by sol »

Scandium

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #924 on: February 08, 2018, 03:09:27 PM »

Especially when we're talking about cake.

Because it's just cake, and nobody should have to worry that it might not actually be cake.

Your arguments here are pretty silly, though humorous. But the "it's just cake" thing is particularly weird. You really want the government to start qualitatively rank businesses? Which are more necessary than others? So we just apply equality to the ones that are necessary? By that logic nobody needs to sit at lunch counters either. They could eat oatmeal at their desks. So why was it a problem that black people were refused lunch? If someone has a religious objection to serving sandwiches to black people, or muslims, is that ok?

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #925 on: February 08, 2018, 03:10:59 PM »
Personally I don't really care about the cake issue. For me what bothers me, are Republicans being OK with for example private business owners deciding which part of my health care is covered or even available.  Or an individual pharmacist refusing to fill my birth control pills, based on their personal views. Or an official refusing to grant marriage licenses to gay couples, in a state where gay marriages are now legal.

For any one thing, yeah, the cake thing seems silly because you can go elsewhere. But if the court rules that that's OK, it will set a precedent, all sort of businesses or even individuals can refuse you service, because they don't like this person's status, or performing this particular service even if it's part of their job". You can see how that's a problem. But keep talking about cake.

Oh no totally, I agree it's a line somewhere, I'm just saying that line is above the cake level.

It's massively stupid that health insurance was tied to employment, agreed.  I really wish that hadn't happened.  The party responsible might surprise you!  And when they had the opportunity to fix it Democrats did...something else!

I'm against the idea of having to get medication through a pharmacist at all, I don't know why I can't get it straight from my doctor or the producer but whatever, I guess government is good in all cases right?

I don't think it should be a crime against the state for a person to refuse to give a marriage license.  I think they'll get fired and I'm OK with that.  You are free to choose not to issue the license and the employer is free to terminate you.  You can go open your own marriage license granting business, though it's unclear where the licenses will be valid, or what they're for.  I also think this is a great example of where the government just needs to get the fuck out of the marriage business altogether.  Why do you need a license?  What the hell is going on?  Who thought this was a good way to do things?

But keep conflating this specific instance of an individual in their own business exercising their own freedom of religious practice and suffering the economic loss of the lost sale with every other conceivable situation where someone might hurt you if that helps you justify the use of force to compel production of cake.

CheapskateWife

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #926 on: February 08, 2018, 03:18:50 PM »
the cake thing seems silly because you can go elsewhere.

Yea, they can always get their cak somewhere different.  Somewhere just as good, but, you know, at a different location.  Maybe somewhere separate but equal.
I read about the argument the lawyer made and it was actually not about the food, but the art/decoration.  This is where I thought the lawyers hit upon something really interesting as relates to "rights" and "discrimination".  Is the cake, just cake or is it art?  Once we add a level of artistic expression to a contracted task, the artist gets to decide what kind of art they produce.  If the artist doesn't feel right about your use of their art, they don't have to enter into a service agreement to provide their art for your use.

Think back to prior political campaigns were musicians made it clear who they would and wouldn't grant the right to use their art.  Was Fleetwood Mac discriminating against uptight white guys who use the elephant as their spirit animal? 

Should a cake baker be compelled to place a Nazi flag on a cake because you say so?  Wait, that's not religious...what about a verse from the Koran which might happen to advocate violence, or a quote from the bible that does the same?

I don't really know who is right or wrong in this, but the artistic expression argument is interesting and adds a level of nuance that bears further discussion.

Wexler

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #927 on: February 08, 2018, 03:29:40 PM »
But I'm certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, it is wrong to use violence to compel the baking of cakes, and that's what happens if you say the owner/operator of a cake shop can't refuse a commission, and his reason why doesn't matter.

Are you also sure that is wrong to use violence to compel the preparation of sandwiches for black people at your lunch counter?  Because we do that, too.  There was a whole movement about it.

Actually, he can refuse customers for a lot of reasons (no shirt/no shoes, or based on their favorite movies, or if they like red velvet). But the courts have carved out protected classes against whom businesses cannot discriminate.   "Many fine" people disagree with this, but it's law nonetheless. Some people used to argue and were angry about this, because they didn't really understand why people couldn't get lunch or swim elsewhere.  Usually, these were the type of people who were never refused service for anything in their lives and for whom service refusals were amusing theoretical exercises.  They were never in the firing line of having to eat lunch elsewhere and having to watch their children go to schools while "many fine" people yelled racist things at them.  It turns out that (many fine) Americans cannot be trusted to work these things out on their own.  They can't be trusted to serve lunch to minorities or let minority children go their schools. Therefore, they do need the threat of violence. 

Some arguments in this thread have centered around the issue of cake.  It's unimportant.  It's trivial.  The law does not have a sliding scale of discrimination, whereby the more important your products are, the less you get to discriminate, and vice versa.  That's why we don't have things like Racist Bob's Glitter Emporium and Portlandia Discrimination Free Walmart.  We apply the law equally to free enterprise and give you some exceptions for being a religious institution.  We also have accommodations for religious employees, and these are available to Hassan and to Steve so they can pray or so that they can tell women that they won't fill their prescriptions for slut pills. 

The religious right is relentless though, and they have certainly noticed that it's a better gig to be a religious enterprise if discrimination is your thing.  That's why they are trying to get businesses the same rules that religious institutions have. 



   

PKFFW

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #928 on: February 08, 2018, 03:32:31 PM »
Oh no totally, I agree it's a line somewhere, I'm just saying that line is above the cake level.

The line is most likely at exactly the product or service that is important to you personally.

Quote from: CheapskateWife
I don't really know who is right or wrong in this, but the artistic expression argument is interesting and adds a level of nuance that bears further discussion.
It was already discussed and the fact emerged that the artistic expression part was never even brought up.  The couple were denied service before any discussion about art was entered into.

Or to put it another way, the "artistic expression" argument was a legal fiction concocted by the lawyers.

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #929 on: February 08, 2018, 03:34:28 PM »
I don't really know who is right or wrong in this, but the artistic expression argument is interesting and adds a level of nuance that bears further discussion.

In this case the nuance is irrelevant.  There was no art.  They didn't even discuss what the cake would look like, or say.  The baker refused to serve them solely because they were gay. 

If you operate a public business, you can not refuse to serve black people, or gay people, or women.  You are not compelled or forced to operaate a public business, either.  If you don't want to make cake for black people, no one is forcing you to open a bakery.  You have the religioius freedom to refuse to open a public bakery.

But if you do open a bakery, you can't refuse to serve blacks, or Mexicans, or gays.  You cannot put a "whites only" sign on your front door.  The content of your business in this case is not relevant, because the art/food debate isn't even being discussed.  He outright refused them service.

It's about as clear as discrimination cases get, IMO.  I'm shocked they found a judge who sided with the bigot.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #930 on: February 08, 2018, 03:36:17 PM »

Especially when we're talking about cake.

Because it's just cake, and nobody should have to worry that it might not actually be cake.

Your arguments here are pretty silly, though humorous. But the "it's just cake" thing is particularly weird. You really want the government to start qualitatively rank businesses? Which are more necessary than others? So we just apply equality to the ones that are necessary? By that logic nobody needs to sit at lunch counters either. They could eat oatmeal at their desks. So why was it a problem that black people were refused lunch? If someone has a religious objection to serving sandwiches to black people, or muslims, is that ok?

No, I don't want the government to do any such thing.  Maybe there are other equally ridiculous things that would come up, worthy of consideration I suppose.  I just know the cake thing is stupid and everyone should have called it that.  No time should have been spent on this.  Dudes, go to literally any other cake shop.  Fucking bake a cake yourself.  This isn't the lunch counter thing is my point.  "The principle of the thing" is a standard that should be employed when there is a widespread mentality of discrimination.  And while I have no doubt that, specifically within the wedding sphere, due to the often religious nature of weddings, that this was probably not the first time some aspect of their planned nuptials had hit this particular road block. 

But talk about taking your victory and declaring defeat.  You can get married now, go fucking do it, and let any assholes along the way miss out on your fabulous mega-cake of expensive markupedness.

The lunch counter thing is different because there were two significant issues there:

1.  The primary basis for the decision was race, which is specifically protected against as a means of discrimination.
2.  There is demonstrable harm from a lack of places to get lunch.

It isn't true that they could eat oatmeal at their desks, there's plenty of jobs you actually can't eat at.  That's still true today, there is just a practical need to go get lunch.  The need thing isn't a part of the legal discussion, it's part of the "why should I give a shit" part.

Homosexual couples are not being arrested for trying to buy cake, they aren't being sprayed with fire hoses or having dogs set on them or armed police set on them.  This isn't the same thing, and it's approaching godwin's law to make that case.

"If someone has a religious objection to serving sandwiches to black people, or muslims, is that ok?"  The Muslim one, it's interesting right.  Because Muslims routinely refuse service to you and people like you, and that's OK, because of religion.  In particular a devout Muslim will refuse service to homosexuals.  The inherent contradiction in tolerance of Muslims is accepting that they will discriminate based on race, religion, sex, and sexual orientation.  It is required by their book.

The same reasons cited earlier in the thread for discrediting this baker's claim that it is a religious objection because it is decidedly not biblical (Jesus is all about spreading the cake not denying the cake) have to do with biblical references which don't really allow for violence or discrimination.  The Quran has no similar prohibitions and requires violence and discrimination, to the extent that you should thank any Muslims you know for permitting you to live at the peril of their own soul.

I know that when we try to force Muslims not to discriminate they sometimes get explody so I'm going to say that we'll allow them to discriminate and then it gets to be a bit of turnabout is fair play.  I am definitely not even sitting near the cake you forced the Muslim baker to bake.

Show me the religion that has a problem with black people is my answer to that question.  The homosexual thing isn't as clear cut, the religious guidance that baker has to go by is muddied, to the shame of all Christians.  There's a significant, as in tens of millions, portion that believes they endanger the soul of the homosexual if they in any way encourage or enable that way of life.  Religious tolerance means we have to allow them that belief.  We don't have to let them hurt anyone.  But we really shouldn't be compelling them to make cake either.

partgypsy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #931 on: February 08, 2018, 03:36:36 PM »
the cake thing seems silly because you can go elsewhere.

Yea, they can always get their cak somewhere different.  Somewhere just as good, but, you know, at a different location.  Maybe somewhere separate but equal.
I read about the argument the lawyer made and it was actually not about the food, but the art/decoration.  This is where I thought the lawyers hit upon something really interesting as relates to "rights" and "discrimination".  Is the cake, just cake or is it art?  Once we add a level of artistic expression to a contracted task, the artist gets to decide what kind of art they produce.  If the artist doesn't feel right about your use of their art, they don't have to enter into a service agreement to provide their art for your use.

Think back to prior political campaigns were musicians made it clear who they would and wouldn't grant the right to use their art.  Was Fleetwood Mac discriminating against uptight white guys who use the elephant as their spirit animal? 

Should a cake baker be compelled to place a Nazi flag on a cake because you say so?  Wait, that's not religious...what about a verse from the Koran which might happen to advocate violence, or a quote from the bible that does the same?

I don't really know who is right or wrong in this, but the artistic expression argument is interesting and adds a level of nuance that bears further discussion.

Yeah I agree that is an interesting topic. I would think an artist can refuse to say do a commercial or really any contract based work they don't feel like.

I totally want to attach the Patrick Stewart "the bakery" SNL skit to this thread, but I can't find it. He makes "sexy" cakes.

Greenback Reproduction Specialist

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #932 on: February 08, 2018, 03:41:22 PM »
For that matter - anything that attempts to clean or keep clean the environment. Repubs seem to reject that effort outright too. Having grown up in a polluted city decades ago, I can tell you things are MUCH better when I visit today. So yeah, I'll support anything reasonable that keeps the air clean and the water clean.
How would you define reasonable though? Lets just look at a utilities project as an example... Or may a pipeline project since this seems to get a lot of attention. So you have a need to install a pipeline to keep up with rising demand for fuel, truck and train isn't keeping up. These project take years or decades to plan, which is ridiculous. Do you want fuel shortages? Higher price of fuel? Or accept that the pipe will be built to a certain standard and even still might leak? What if the cost of the project due to environmental concerns makes the project infeasible and environmental mitigation makes the project to costly? With or without the project the demand is going to grow, prices will rise, and at some point the project will make sense I suppose. But the community will pay a higher price of fuel now and forever as long as the pipe is pushing fuel. Is $5 per gallon ok to have? Are fuel shortages in the mean time ok?

Now that I think about it, you might be able to trace our lack of infrastructure projects to the cost of environmental concerns and studies. We don't have a spending problem in this country, we already spend a tremendous amount on road maintenance. But is it ok to keep adding to the regulations to the point that it costs to much? Construction projects already require huge upfront capital just to get started, the risk to that capital from the get go is pretty big. You screw up once and don't have your SWPP placard properly displayed and you could be shut down for days. Where does it end?

Its easy to sit here and say "well they should.... whatever", but in reality it adds real cost to projects. Everyone wants to do the right thing, its not always about the bottom line. But companies cannot take losses on projects without going out of business.

Or at what point do we say, maybe we don't need to fix the roads, the cost to the environment is to costly. I've said it before, I'm good bringing back horses or walking to get around.

I feel like this is why republicans are so on edge already about ANY additional environmental concerns, its just never enough. There is a perpetual vicious cycle of regulation breeding regulation, breeding regulation.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #933 on: February 08, 2018, 03:50:55 PM »
the cake thing seems silly because you can go elsewhere.

Yea, they can always get their cake somewhere different.  Somewhere just as good, but, you know, at another location.  Maybe somewhere separate but equal.

Or, just maybe, the Supreme Court has already ruled that "separate but equal" is never equal because it is separate, and is unconstitutional, and we called in the national guard to force desegregation while the religious right stood on the schoolhouse steps and waved bibles in the air to protest this oppression of their right to oppress.

I can't believe we're seriously having this argument in modern America.  It's like the 60s never happened.

I can't believe you're willing to conflate segregation to a single baker with a religious objection.  I can't believe you're blind to the differences here.  Separate but equal was the law.  This is just some asshole with a bakery.  And it isn't "I won't serve homosexuals" it was "I won't make a wedding cake."

The decision here isn't "should we remove this law that requires discrimination" it is literally "should we force someone to create cake for a religious ceremony they object to?"

But go on telling me how the left isn't authoritarian with their cake production compulsion.

PKFFW

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #934 on: February 08, 2018, 04:18:00 PM »
The decision here isn't "should we remove this law that requires discrimination" it is literally "should we force someone to create cake for a religious ceremony they object to?"
You keep claiming that but it is patently untrue.

The baker is not being forced to "create cake for a religious ceremony they object to".  If the baker does not want to do so they are free to close up shop.

It's a matter of whether the baker believes his principle of being allowed to discriminate is more important to him than his business.  It is entirely his choice and no one will force him to create any cake he doesn't want to create.

Wexler

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #935 on: February 08, 2018, 04:19:33 PM »
the cake thing seems silly because you can go elsewhere.

Yea, they can always get their cake somewhere different.  Somewhere just as good, but, you know, at another location.  Maybe somewhere separate but equal.

Or, just maybe, the Supreme Court has already ruled that "separate but equal" is never equal because it is separate, and is unconstitutional, and we called in the national guard to force desegregation while the religious right stood on the schoolhouse steps and waved bibles in the air to protest this oppression of their right to oppress.

I can't believe we're seriously having this argument in modern America.  It's like the 60s never happened.

I can't believe you're willing to conflate segregation to a single baker with a religious objection.  I can't believe you're blind to the differences here.  Separate but equal was the law.  This is just some asshole with a bakery.  And it isn't "I won't serve homosexuals" it was "I won't make a wedding cake."

The decision here isn't "should we remove this law that requires discrimination" it is literally "should we force someone to create cake for a religious ceremony they object to?"

But go on telling me how the left isn't authoritarian with their cake production compulsion.

The standard for whether someone gets to discriminate isn't "but it's just cake."  The alternate availability of the product sold or how trivial or tasty it is isn't the legal question.  The second point you brought up:" can I be forced to sell something for someone's religious ceremony" may not be the issue either (does anyone know if the couple planned a religious ceremony?).  Some weddings are civil weddings only.  In that case, it's "my religion says your civil ceremony is wrong."  They are certainly arguing that he doesn't want to participate in a religious ceremony.  He's are also trying to carve out an artisan exception for designed products.  But none of the arguments center around the "it's just cake" legal theory.  There is no legal standard that separates necessary things like lunch or transportation from trivial things in terms of civil rights law.





partgypsy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #936 on: February 08, 2018, 04:19:54 PM »
And sorry dude you just jumped the shark.

"The Quran has no similar prohibitions and requires violence and discrimination, to the extent that you should thank any Muslims you know for permitting you to live at the peril of their own soul."

Let me take a wild guess you don't actually know any Muslim people in real life. You probably do know some homosexuals in your daily life, but they sure as hell aren't going to tell you. Any Muslim discriminating against homosexuals in the US, such as refusing them service, is also against the law.

The problem with all of your arguments, is our constitution has a separation of church and state. If you want to practice that kind of stuff, maybe you can live in theocracy or be like the Amish.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 04:54:58 PM by partgypsy »

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #937 on: February 08, 2018, 05:07:13 PM »
And sorry dude you just jumped the shark.

"The Quran has no similar prohibitions and requires violence and discrimination, to the extent that you should thank any Muslims you know for permitting you to live at the peril of their own soul."

Let me take a wild guess you don't actually know any Muslim people in real life. You probably do know some homosexuals in your daily life, but they sure as hell aren't going to tell you. Any Muslim discriminating against homosexuals in the US, such as refusing them service, is also against the law.

The problem with all of your arguments, is our constitution has a separation of church and state. If you want to practice that kind of stuff, maybe you can live in theocracy or be like the Amish.

Well it isn't relevant, but I do know some Muslim people "in real life."  I also know plenty of homosexuals in my daily life, and as I said, I would have no problem with selling them a wedding cake, I've even officiated two weddings for homosexual couples.

I'm not making a legal argument here.  I'm saying that this whole situation is absurd.  It isn't a widespread long-term oppression that needs to be dealt with via Supreme Court rulings, and these guys are retarded for going there.

Homosexual couples just got the right to get married.  That is a huge win, and overturns centuries of precedent.  And you are correct, our constitution provides certain protections, specifically, in the first amendment, part of the bill of rights:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances...

Note that nowhere in the constitution are homosexuals defined as a protected class.  That definition exists in legislation and legal precedent, but it is not a constitutional protection.

So why on earth would you try and force the conversation before the Supreme Court that puts your protected class status in jeopardy?  That's fucking stupid.

I guess I can admire the confidence.  Worked out pretty well for all of us with Citizen's United.  And by the way, the protected class status doesn't make it illegal to discriminate for any purpose.  It's actually quite specific in the law exactly what is and is not legally prohibited forms of discrimination.

So know, none of you knows for sure how this will turn out, but one thing is absolutely clear:

Cake was not the right reason to pick the fight.

If it goes the wrong way, like it did in California, it sets back the homosexual agenda fifty or a hundred years.

For cake.

That was my point.

Dabnasty

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #938 on: February 08, 2018, 05:09:07 PM »

"If someone has a religious objection to serving sandwiches to black people, or muslims, is that ok?"  The Muslim one, it's interesting right.  Because Muslims routinely refuse service to you and people like you, and that's OK, because of religion.  In particular a devout Muslim will refuse service to homosexuals.  The inherent contradiction in tolerance of Muslims is accepting that they will discriminate based on race, religion, sex, and sexual orientation.  It is required by their book.

The same reasons cited earlier in the thread for discrediting this baker's claim that it is a religious objection because it is decidedly not biblical (Jesus is all about spreading the cake not denying the cake) have to do with biblical references which don't really allow for violence or discrimination.  The Quran has no similar prohibitions and requires violence and discrimination, to the extent that you should thank any Muslims you know for permitting you to live at the peril of their own soul.


Please read. You are promoting a dangerous misconception of the Quran and Islam.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788

bacchi

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #939 on: February 08, 2018, 05:17:01 PM »
We should remember that sexual orientation is not a federally protected class. It's perfectly legal to fire someone for being gay in, say, Alabama. However, in the cake case, California state law does include sexual orientation as a protected class.

The current SC case (from Colorado) could decide it for the nation. The DOMA majority ruling indicates that sexual orientation is/will be a new protected class. However, the recent evangelical surge could make the on-the-fence justices regret the DOMA decision.

I'm surprised the CA judge bought the "artist" legal strategy. As mentioned, it could really open discrimination by other occupations like architects and interior designers and hairdressers, etc.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #940 on: February 08, 2018, 05:21:22 PM »
The decision here isn't "should we remove this law that requires discrimination" it is literally "should we force someone to create cake for a religious ceremony they object to?"
You keep claiming that but it is patently untrue.

The baker is not being forced to "create cake for a religious ceremony they object to".  If the baker does not want to do so they are free to close up shop.

It's a matter of whether the baker believes his principle of being allowed to discriminate is more important to him than his business.  It is entirely his choice and no one will force him to create any cake he doesn't want to create.

Well it isn't surprising to me that a liberal thinks unemployment is a reasonable alternative to pursuing your chosen profession, and not an infringement on your basic human rights.  Or that another's desire for cake should take precedence over your ability to pursue your chosen profession which in no way infringes their ability to get cake.

Being forced to close up shop is just as unacceptable to me as being forced to produce cake, if that will make clear that I wholeheartedly dismiss this argument and why I continue to simply express it as being forced to produce cake.  You are making a false distinction here.

"You don't have to murder your wife, you could just stop doing business here."  That's how your argument sounds to me.
"You don't have to forsake your religion, you could just stop doing business here."  There's no freedom of religion if this is the standard.  Being forced to give up your livelihood for your religion is some 14th century bullshit.

To you the production of cake is no big deal, is what I'm saying.  That argument, that cake is no big deal, has been dismissed by most of you as not a good reason to allow the discrimination.  That I think it is minor is irrelevant.

Exactly.  You also think it is minor, and that's irrelevant.  That you don't realize the production of cake is a big fucking deal to this baker doesn't invalidate his religious objection to providing it.  It isn't acceptable to say that he's shit out of luck and has to either provide the cake or close up shop.  That isn't a real choice.

These guys get discriminated against for religious reasons.  That's just how it goes.  Fortunately, it's just fucking cake, and not something actually important.


bacchi

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #941 on: February 08, 2018, 05:24:50 PM »
So why on earth would you try and force the conversation before the Supreme Court that puts your protected class status in jeopardy?  That's fucking stupid.

In the Colorado case before the SC, the plaintiff is the bakery. They've lost, and lost, and lost again in the courts in Colorado. The Colorado SC declined to their appeal so they took it to the US SC.

PKFFW

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #942 on: February 08, 2018, 05:38:08 PM »
Well it isn't surprising to me that a liberal thinks unemployment is a reasonable alternative to pursuing your chosen profession, and not an infringement on your basic human rights.  Or that another's desire for cake should take precedence over your ability to pursue your chosen profession which in no way infringes their ability to get cake.

Being forced to close up shop is just as unacceptable to me as being forced to produce cake, if that will make clear that I wholeheartedly dismiss this argument and why I continue to simply express it as being forced to produce cake.  You are making a false distinction here.

"You don't have to murder your wife, you could just stop doing business here."  That's how your argument sounds to me.
"You don't have to forsake your religion, you could just stop doing business here."  There's no freedom of religion if this is the standard.  Being forced to give up your livelihood for your religion is some 14th century bullshit.

To you the production of cake is no big deal, is what I'm saying.  That argument, that cake is no big deal, has been dismissed by most of you as not a good reason to allow the discrimination.  That I think it is minor is irrelevant.

Exactly.  You also think it is minor, and that's irrelevant.  That you don't realize the production of cake is a big fucking deal to this baker doesn't invalidate his religious objection to providing it.  It isn't acceptable to say that he's shit out of luck and has to either provide the cake or close up shop.  That isn't a real choice.

These guys get discriminated against for religious reasons.  That's just how it goes.  Fortunately, it's just fucking cake, and not something actually important.
The baker does not have to choose unemployment.  They do not have to choose to close up shop.  They are completely free to continue to pursue their chosen profession.

They just aren't allowed to do so in direct contravention to the law.  Sort of like a drug dealer would not be allowed to pursue their chosen profession in contravention of the law.

You keep claiming "it's just fucking cake" and therefore not important and therefore the baker should be allowed to discriminate.  You keep forgetting to point out that it's not important to you.  You believe people should have the right to discriminate against others if the product or service in question is unimportant to you.  You do agree though that there is "a line somewhere". 

That's your argument in a nutshell.  People should be allowed to discriminate for whatever reason they like on whatever is unimportant to you.

JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #943 on: February 08, 2018, 05:44:35 PM »
I'm not making a legal argument here.  I'm saying that this whole situation is absurd.  It isn't a widespread long-term oppression that needs to be dealt with via Supreme Court rulings, and these guys are retarded for going there.

Homosexual couples just got the right to get married.  That is a huge win, and overturns centuries of precedent.  And you are correct, our constitution provides certain protections, specifically, in the first amendment, part of the bill of rights:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances...

Note that nowhere in the constitution are homosexuals defined as a protected class. That definition exists in legislation and legal precedent, but it is not a constitutional protection.

So why on earth would you try and force the conversation before the Supreme Court that puts your protected class status in jeopardy?  That's fucking stupid.

Are you aware that the Constitution was drafted 82 years before the first known appearance of the word "homosexual" in print? I'm guessing not, because that's a patently absurd statement to make.

So after 19 pages... did anyone regret voting Republican?  I'm sure reading the entirety of this thread is about as healthy as swimming in toxic sludge.

Seems not. They're too busy arguing that discrimination is okay to regret anything.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #944 on: February 08, 2018, 05:46:19 PM »

"If someone has a religious objection to serving sandwiches to black people, or muslims, is that ok?"  The Muslim one, it's interesting right.  Because Muslims routinely refuse service to you and people like you, and that's OK, because of religion.  In particular a devout Muslim will refuse service to homosexuals.  The inherent contradiction in tolerance of Muslims is accepting that they will discriminate based on race, religion, sex, and sexual orientation.  It is required by their book.

The same reasons cited earlier in the thread for discrediting this baker's claim that it is a religious objection because it is decidedly not biblical (Jesus is all about spreading the cake not denying the cake) have to do with biblical references which don't really allow for violence or discrimination.  The Quran has no similar prohibitions and requires violence and discrimination, to the extent that you should thank any Muslims you know for permitting you to live at the peril of their own soul.


Please read. You are promoting a dangerous misconception of the Quran and Islam.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788

Go read the Quran, it's dangerous and there's no getting around it.  That author is an idiot, apologizing for the root of an ideology that is pathologically violent.  There is violence in the bible and the Quran.  True.  Anyone that equates the two has zero reading comprehension.  There is a difference between mentioning violence and explaining when and where it happened, and directing violence, mandating it as a basic element of the faith.  For defense only?  Go read the book and then come tell me that author has any idea what they're talking about.  Finish the whole thing.  It isn't like the bible.  Levitical law is included as a historical record of how shitty things could be, not as a roadmap for how to go today (Leviticus is the part you don't like what talks about homo's and womens needin' beatin's n whatnot).  That shit in the Quran is talking about how to move forward as a faith, murdering infidels and enslaving their children to turn into soldiers for murdering more infidels.

The most horrifying read of my life.

bacchi

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #945 on: February 08, 2018, 05:46:33 PM »
So after 19 pages... did anyone regret voting Republican?  I'm sure reading the entirety of this thread is about as healthy as swimming in toxic sludge.

There were a few, yeah.

zoltani

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #946 on: February 08, 2018, 05:47:55 PM »
So why on earth would you try and force the conversation before the Supreme Court that puts your protected class status in jeopardy?  That's fucking stupid.

In the Colorado case before the SC, the plaintiff is the bakery. They've lost, and lost, and lost again in the courts in Colorado. The Colorado SC declined to their appeal so they took it to the US SC.

Right now he cannot bake cakes for anyone and had to reduce his staff, so I guess I can understand in a twisted way. It's a little absurd on both sides, the couple could have moved along and chosen another baker, there's no shortage of them. The owner could have sold him a cake to be a centerpiece of a ceremony, which yes, is certainly art, showing off his skills and potentially gaining a lot of new business in the market. It wasn't handled well on either side.

Personally the issue is black and white for me, I would have baked the cake, and made it the most beautiful cake they have seen to increase my sales amount the gay community. Sometimes though I like to entertain the gray areas, and I think it's important to do so, no matter the subject matter.

JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #947 on: February 08, 2018, 05:48:47 PM »
Fortunately, it's just fucking cake, and not something actually important.

Not something actually important...like sitting at the back of a bus vs sitting at the front of a bus?  Or drinking out of a different water fountain? What's the problem, right? You will get to your destination just as fast as the people sitting at the front of the bus, and your water fountain has the same exact water that my water fountain has...what's the big deal?

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #948 on: February 08, 2018, 05:57:07 PM »
OK.  Open a slave trading business, abortion business, or nuclear power plant business and let me know how that works out.  I suspect you'll have some government interference . . . because you can only operate a business with government permission.  You're confusing the very relaxed set of laws to encourage small business that exist, with total anarchy.  One of the few rules that you do have to follow to keep a business open is not to run your business in a way that discriminates against minorities.

Listen! Sir! I'm sure you aren't comparing my hypothetical cake business to slave trading or abortion?  Can we simmer down please!  Of course there are permits, but those permit you to do certain regulated activities, not business in general.  The very idea that I need government permission to engage in economic activity is moronic.  Of course I do not, this isn't Soviet Russia.  It truly, fundamentally, just does not work that way here.


Hmmm . . .

Quote
Most small businesses need a combination of licenses and permits from both federal and state agencies.

https://www.sba.gov/business-guide/launch/apply-for-licenses-permits-federal-state



Quote
If you plan to open a bakery--either out of your home or in a storefront--you will need to apply for a bakery license with your state agency. This business license is required by your state’s Business Licenses, Permits & Tax authority, and is an absolute must if you want to sell baked goods in a physical bakery or restaurant, or over the Internet.

https://www.corpnet.com/business-licenses-health-bakery/


Moronic as you may feel the situation is, it would appear that most businesses require government permission to operate in the US.  It truly, fundamentally seems to work that way.  Given that you operate your business only at the pleasure of the government, it makes sense that there would be rules you need to abide by.  Even for a humble bakery.

bacchi

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #949 on: February 08, 2018, 06:00:26 PM »
So why on earth would you try and force the conversation before the Supreme Court that puts your protected class status in jeopardy?  That's fucking stupid.

In the Colorado case before the SC, the plaintiff is the bakery. They've lost, and lost, and lost again in the courts in Colorado. The Colorado SC declined to their appeal so they took it to the US SC.

Right now he cannot bake cakes for anyone and had to reduce his staff, so I guess I can understand in a twisted way. It's a little absurd on both sides, the couple could have moved along and chosen another baker, there's no shortage of them. The owner could have sold him a cake to be a centerpiece of a ceremony, which yes, is certainly art, showing off his skills and potentially gaining a lot of new business in the market. It wasn't handled well on either side.

Personally the issue is black and white for me, I would have baked the cake, and made it the most beautiful cake they have seen to increase my sales amount the gay community. Sometimes though I like to entertain the gray areas, and I think it's important to do so, no matter the subject matter.

I can understand why he's taking it to the SC after losing so many times. Even though "it's just cake," he feels it's important enough to continue the multi-year saga of arguing with the Colorado government.

Of course, as it's been pointed out, it's just fucking cake. He could've baked a fucking cake and saved himself a lot of stress and effort and, probably, his business.