Author Topic: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?  (Read 107160 times)

Scandium

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2173
  • Location: EastCoast
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #850 on: February 08, 2018, 07:26:52 AM »
I think there is a fundamental difference between liberals and republican principals. Republican seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance. The part that is funny, is republican are so convinced their way of thinking is correct that they believe they can predict the future,


See:
- banning gay marrige
- war in iraq
- trickle down economics
- "tax cuts will pay for themselves"
- "let the states decide!" Oh, but lets ban states from creating municipal broadband
- transgender people have never harmed me, but they scare me, so let's ban them from the military, and let's decide which bathroom they use
- government should decide what people smoke or ingest in their own homes
- video games harm children!

Can you imagine any more oppressive, worse form of government control than deciding which bathroom they use? Or controlling thoughts and what state of mind adults are allowed to have in their own homes, harming no one?? I can't!
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 11:04:27 AM by Scandium »

Just Joe

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2114
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #851 on: February 08, 2018, 08:04:57 AM »
Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.

Funny that's what I say about the GOP...

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12073
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #852 on: February 08, 2018, 08:10:01 AM »
"He makes liberals angry therefore I love him" seems to sum it up nicely.

A terrible sentiment for a system of government...

Regarding exposure of surveillance being to Trump's credit... Have you heard of Edward Snowden.....?

I think there is a fundamental difference between liberals and republican principals. Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.

Hmm.  What about:
- Using government powers to legislate that women what women can do with their bodies?
- Using government powers to institute tariffs that end up preventing private individuals from selling their product outside of the country?
- Using government powers to prevent the free movement of people across borders?
- Using government powers to keep losing the war on drugs (an attempt to control what people can choose to put in their own bodies)?
- Using government powers to illegally kidnap and torture people while holding them indefinitely without chance of fair trial?

That certainly sounds like a party that wants to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.  Good thing the right doesn't support any of those issues.  :P

MrMoogle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1112
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Huntsville, AL
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #853 on: February 08, 2018, 08:30:40 AM »
I find the whole thing pretty bizarre.   How can anyone allow Fake Donald to control their life and happiness to such a degree?

I also find it a little sad when people on the right delight in the anxiety he induces in the democrats.   You guys are all citizens of the same country ffs.   Pull together and do great things again.

Too many profit from keeping us divided.  The media mostly, but also politicians on both sides.

This didn't start with Trump, I know it happened with Obama, and probably Bush before him.  There was a clip from one of the talk shows right after Obama getting elected, saying how they liked to see Republicans squirm when talking about Obama. 

To some this is just payback for Obama.  Which is an emotional response, and not a logical one, but we are mostly emotional beings, so it's understandable, even if it's not respectable.

talltexan

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1957
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #854 on: February 08, 2018, 08:35:09 AM »
While the US dicks around with all this crap, China is rapidly displacing you as the predominant power in the world.

Eh, it's inevitable. China has its own problems, including party warfare, but it has 4x the population. As long as natural resources hold out, and pollution is mitigated, China will have a far larger GDP.

No, it's not inevitable. Because policy matters. Because human capital matters (and the best place to get it is currently the United States). Because capital matters. Because entrepreneurship matters. Yes, the gap between the world and the US is closing. But China has to fix some serious issues--things that will take decades if they're even possible--to overtake us.

MrMoogle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1112
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Huntsville, AL
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #855 on: February 08, 2018, 08:43:26 AM »
"He makes liberals angry therefore I love him" seems to sum it up nicely.

A terrible sentiment for a system of government...

Regarding exposure of surveillance being to Trump's credit... Have you heard of Edward Snowden.....?

I think there is a fundamental difference between liberals and republican principals. Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.

Hmm.  What about:
- Using government powers to legislate that women what women can do with their bodies?
- Using government powers to institute tariffs that end up preventing private individuals from selling their product outside of the country?
- Using government powers to prevent the free movement of people across borders?
- Using government powers to keep losing the war on drugs (an attempt to control what people can choose to put in their own bodies)?
- Using government powers to illegally kidnap and torture people while holding them indefinitely without chance of fair trial?

That certainly sounds like a party that wants to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.  Good thing the right doesn't support any of those issues.  :P
To be fair, that's not how the Republicans see those issues.  Everyone of those but the tariffs they (or the portion that supports it) see as saving lives, and I don't know much about the tariff one.  It's hard to say the government shouldn't be trying to save lives.

That's like saying Obamacare is about spreading the wealth and taxing the rich.  When it really is about ensuring everyone has a minimum level of healthcare.  While both are technically true, very few Democrats voted because of the first reason.

partgypsy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2357
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #856 on: February 08, 2018, 08:48:58 AM »
I see Obama as a uniter, not a divider. Now him calling out about police brutality, that IS a problem in this country. Being the first African American president, he was in the unique role of speaking both as someone in a position of power, and as an African American. Don't shoot the messenger if you are uncomfortable with the message. Fix the problem.
 I don't recall Obama ever making comments he was happy or liked seeing Republicans squirm because he was elected. He reached across the aisle and was rebuffed multiple times. Republicans were against Obama, from the start. To the point of saying their agenda, was to make him a one term president. The whole Kenya thing, or Muslim rumors was to delegitimize his presidency. These efforts did not have to do with what Obama said, or his policy positions. It was personal. I still remember seeing the images of Obama effigies hanging from trees, and the many many memes and horrible quotes about him I will not repeat. 

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7342
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #857 on: February 08, 2018, 08:50:21 AM »
To be fair, that's not how the Republicans see those issues.  Everyone of those but the tariffs they (or the portion that supports it) see as saving lives... It's hard to say the government shouldn't be trying to save lives.

I'm not sure that "how they see it" really matters when we're talking about restricting people's freedoms.  If you think Republicans are really motivated to save lives, then they would SURELY oppose a health care law that results in 18 million people losing coverage.  Some tiny fraction of those people will literally die without insurance.  In that light, Republicans killed tens of thousands of American citizens, more than died in 9/11.

Or to take a less immediately morbid example, the mayor of NYC tried to ban oversized sodas.  He thought he was saving lives, too.  Not only did Republicans not support the ban, they openly ridiculed it as an example of what they call "the nanny state".  That's what they call everything that Democrats try to do to save lives.  The idea of NOT saving lives is central to their whole political philosophy, so I'm unconvinced by your argument that their proscriptions on drugs/immigration/abortion are motivated by kindness.


TheOldestYoungMan

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 749
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #858 on: February 08, 2018, 08:52:40 AM »
"He makes liberals angry therefore I love him" seems to sum it up nicely.

A terrible sentiment for a system of government...

Regarding exposure of surveillance being to Trump's credit... Have you heard of Edward Snowden.....?

I think there is a fundamental difference between liberals and republican principals. Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.

Hmm.  What about:
- Using government powers to legislate that women what women can do with their bodies?
- Using government powers to institute tariffs that end up preventing private individuals from selling their product outside of the country?
- Using government powers to prevent the free movement of people across borders?
- Using government powers to keep losing the war on drugs (an attempt to control what people can choose to put in their own bodies)?
- Using government powers to illegally kidnap and torture people while holding them indefinitely without chance of fair trial?

That certainly sounds like a party that wants to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.  Good thing the right doesn't support any of those issues.  :P

whataboutism

Legit points though.  I want a small government party, fiscally responsible (I used to say conservative but the word just doesn't mean what it used to).  I want that government to stay away from social issues entirely.  There is no party like that anymore.

What's crazy to me is that, standing back and looking at it objectively, Trump really hasn't done a whole lot.  He's said some shit, sure.  He's planning some shit, sure.  But he's wildly ineffective and very little has changed in the world as a result of his presidency.

But if you look at the coverage of his presidency, you'd think the world was ending.  Without question, by this point, GWB had made far more impactful changes to the country.

Things that deserved this sort of outcry but because "omg terrorists" were passed, often with bipartisan support.

Things that Obama was supposed to dismantle.  But then when he got there he found he kinda didn't mind how powerful POTUS is, and maybe that stuff isn't bad as long as Democrats control it.

I'm waiting for the Donald to actually DO something anywhere close to the massive power grab of GWB.  It's weird to me how bent out of shape the Democrats are that a loathed and incompetent person is sitting in the seat.  It's the second-best outcome next to your guy sitting in the seat.  Ahh, I get it now.  Make as much noise as you can so you can be in power the next round, make it look as bad as possible, because that's just how we operate now.  It's literally SOP for the progressive party.

There's no making them happy.  Obama was president for 8 years and somehow that made us a more racist country.  Instead of the race card being retired it got a glossy foil overhaul.  Show of hands, how many thought they'd shut the fuck up about racist against black people?  I did.  I remember a thread on this board about that.  Can we move on and be post racial?  Well no, of course not, because nobody puts down a source of power voluntarily.  If you are not a Democrat, you are a racist.  That's how its defined now.  So fuck it.

Now an actual racist bigot is in the WH, but you can't convince a whole slew of people that's true because you've been hurling that accusation across the aisle, non-stop, my entire life.  This is literally the scenario you were warned about.  Repeatedly.  Do. Not. Cry. Wolf.

A sexist asshole is in the WH, but you can't convince a whole slew of people that's true because you've been hurling that accusation across the aisle, non-stop, my entire life.  Do. Not. Cry. Wolf.

Would you please issue an apology to every person whose policies you disagreed with for specific, self-serving reasons, that instead of arguing on merits, you sought to discredit, via slanderous and libelous character assaults?  Your vested interest masquerading as a just cause has led us directly to this moment.  And the absolute refusal to take any responsibility for where we are is staggering in its uniformity.  Both sides blame the other for where we are, and both sides were willing participants for the entire ride.  That first time you voted, not your conscience but the lesser of two evils, that first time you swallowed misgivings and voted party line, that's where this started.

You didn't want to play fair for at least the last two decades, and like every other team that cheated to win and then lost anyway, you refuse to disband the team.  And you know what, I get it, you'll probably win next time and that's all that matters right?  Nevermind that it'll cycle back around again, because you're both terrible in different and unique ways.

Both parties are garbage.  Both parties are not interested in representing you.  Stop giving them money.  Stop voting for their candidates.  All the money from all the "evil racists" and "greedy corporations" will amount to nothing if nobody can get elected with a major party affiliation.

"That's just crazy talk."

Yea...

partgypsy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2357
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #859 on: February 08, 2018, 08:57:59 AM »
"He makes liberals angry therefore I love him" seems to sum it up nicely.

A terrible sentiment for a system of government...

Regarding exposure of surveillance being to Trump's credit... Have you heard of Edward Snowden.....?

I think there is a fundamental difference between liberals and republican principals. Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.

Hmm.  What about:
- Using government powers to legislate that women what women can do with their bodies?
- Using government powers to institute tariffs that end up preventing private individuals from selling their product outside of the country?
- Using government powers to prevent the free movement of people across borders?
- Using government powers to keep losing the war on drugs (an attempt to control what people can choose to put in their own bodies)?
- Using government powers to illegally kidnap and torture people while holding them indefinitely without chance of fair trial?

That certainly sounds like a party that wants to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.  Good thing the right doesn't support any of those issues.  :P
To be fair, that's not how the Republicans see those issues.  Everyone of those but the tariffs they (or the portion that supports it) see as saving lives, and I don't know much about the tariff one.  It's hard to say the government shouldn't be trying to save lives.

That's like saying Obamacare is about spreading the wealth and taxing the rich.  When it really is about ensuring everyone has a minimum level of healthcare.  While both are technically true, very few Democrats voted because of the first reason.

Please please do not conflate being anti-abortion with savings lives. The hypocrisy makes me throw up a little in my mouth. It's about controlling women's bodies. The history of the pro-life movement and it's politicalization, is actually very interesting reading. Life beginning at conception is not in Biblical scripture and not something endorsed by the Abrahamic religions, except when a certain Catholic Bishop decreed it, and it was only in the Catholic faith that was endorsed. If you are a Catholic, you can believe that, and follow your beliefs. But don't impose your religious beliefs on everyone else as we have separation of church and state.

MrMoogle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1112
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Huntsville, AL
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #860 on: February 08, 2018, 09:00:34 AM »
To be fair, that's not how the Republicans see those issues.  Everyone of those but the tariffs they (or the portion that supports it) see as saving lives... It's hard to say the government shouldn't be trying to save lives.

I'm not sure that "how they see it" really matters when we're talking about restricting people's freedoms.  If you think Republicans are really motivated to save lives, then they would SURELY oppose a health care law that results in 18 million people losing coverage.  Some tiny fraction of those people will literally die without insurance.  In that light, Republicans killed tens of thousands of American citizens, more than died in 9/11.

Or to take a less immediately morbid example, the mayor of NYC tried to ban oversized sodas.  He thought he was saving lives, too.  Not only did Republicans not support the ban, they openly ridiculed it as an example of what they call "the nanny state".  That's what they call everything that Democrats try to do to save lives.  The idea of NOT saving lives is central to their whole political philosophy, so I'm unconvinced by your argument that their proscriptions on drugs/immigration/abortion are motivated by kindness.
I didn't mean to imply Republicans were only motivated by kindness.  We are complex beings, we have multiple goals and multiple costs we are willing to pay for them.  I was trying to point out that we are judging each other not on our best intentions, but on the worst possible outcome. 

MrMoogle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1112
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Huntsville, AL
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #861 on: February 08, 2018, 09:02:20 AM »
"He makes liberals angry therefore I love him" seems to sum it up nicely.

A terrible sentiment for a system of government...

Regarding exposure of surveillance being to Trump's credit... Have you heard of Edward Snowden.....?

I think there is a fundamental difference between liberals and republican principals. Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.

Hmm.  What about:
- Using government powers to legislate that women what women can do with their bodies?
- Using government powers to institute tariffs that end up preventing private individuals from selling their product outside of the country?
- Using government powers to prevent the free movement of people across borders?
- Using government powers to keep losing the war on drugs (an attempt to control what people can choose to put in their own bodies)?
- Using government powers to illegally kidnap and torture people while holding them indefinitely without chance of fair trial?

That certainly sounds like a party that wants to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.  Good thing the right doesn't support any of those issues.  :P
To be fair, that's not how the Republicans see those issues.  Everyone of those but the tariffs they (or the portion that supports it) see as saving lives, and I don't know much about the tariff one.  It's hard to say the government shouldn't be trying to save lives.

That's like saying Obamacare is about spreading the wealth and taxing the rich.  When it really is about ensuring everyone has a minimum level of healthcare.  While both are technically true, very few Democrats voted because of the first reason.

Please please do not conflate being anti-abortion with savings lives. The hypocrisy makes me throw up a little in my mouth. It's about controlling women's bodies. The history of the pro-life movement and it's politicalization, is actually very interesting reading. Life beginning at conception is not in Biblical scripture and not something endorsed by the Abrahamic religions, except when a certain Catholic Bishop decreed it, and it was only in the Catholic faith that was endorsed. If you are a Catholic, you can believe that, and follow your beliefs. But don't impose your religious beliefs on everyone else as we have separation of church and state.
If you define life begins with conception, anti-abortion by definition saves lives.  That is my only point.

asiljoy

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 401
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #862 on: February 08, 2018, 09:10:20 AM »
"He makes liberals angry therefore I love him" seems to sum it up nicely.

A terrible sentiment for a system of government...

Regarding exposure of surveillance being to Trump's credit... Have you heard of Edward Snowden.....?

I think there is a fundamental difference between liberals and republican principals. Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.

Hmm.  What about:
- Using government powers to legislate that women what women can do with their bodies?
- Using government powers to institute tariffs that end up preventing private individuals from selling their product outside of the country?
- Using government powers to prevent the free movement of people across borders?
- Using government powers to keep losing the war on drugs (an attempt to control what people can choose to put in their own bodies)?
- Using government powers to illegally kidnap and torture people while holding them indefinitely without chance of fair trial?

That certainly sounds like a party that wants to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.  Good thing the right doesn't support any of those issues.  :P
To be fair, that's not how the Republicans see those issues.  Everyone of those but the tariffs they (or the portion that supports it) see as saving lives, and I don't know much about the tariff one.  It's hard to say the government shouldn't be trying to save lives.

That's like saying Obamacare is about spreading the wealth and taxing the rich.  When it really is about ensuring everyone has a minimum level of healthcare.  While both are technically true, very few Democrats voted because of the first reason.

Please please do not conflate being anti-abortion with savings lives. The hypocrisy makes me throw up a little in my mouth. It's about controlling women's bodies. The history of the pro-life movement and it's politicalization, is actually very interesting reading. Life beginning at conception is not in Biblical scripture and not something endorsed by the Abrahamic religions, except when a certain Catholic Bishop decreed it, and it was only in the Catholic faith that was endorsed. If you are a Catholic, you can believe that, and follow your beliefs. But don't impose your religious beliefs on everyone else as we have separation of church and state.
If you define life begins with conception, anti-abortion by definition saves lives.  That is my only point.
Except that isn't always the case. Not allowing abortion has killed women, costing lives of actual humans. Blanket policies don't work here.

Milizard

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 584
  • Location: West Michigan
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #863 on: February 08, 2018, 09:24:12 AM »
"He makes liberals angry therefore I love him" seems to sum it up nicely.

A terrible sentiment for a system of government...

Regarding exposure of surveillance being to Trump's credit... Have you heard of Edward Snowden.....?

I think there is a fundamental difference between liberals and republican principals. Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.

Hmm.  What about:
- Using government powers to legislate that women what women can do with their bodies?
- Using government powers to institute tariffs that end up preventing private individuals from selling their product outside of the country?
- Using government powers to prevent the free movement of people across borders?
- Using government powers to keep losing the war on drugs (an attempt to control what people can choose to put in their own bodies)?
- Using government powers to illegally kidnap and torture people while holding them indefinitely without chance of fair trial?

That certainly sounds like a party that wants to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.  Good thing the right doesn't support any of those issues.  :P
To be fair, that's not how the Republicans see those issues.  Everyone of those but the tariffs they (or the portion that supports it) see as saving lives, and I don't know much about the tariff one.  It's hard to say the government shouldn't be trying to save lives.

That's like saying Obamacare is about spreading the wealth and taxing the rich.  When it really is about ensuring everyone has a minimum level of healthcare.  While both are technically true, very few Democrats voted because of the first reason.
How does not allowing free movement across borders save lives?  I am not personally in support of completely open borders, but there are scores of refugees/immigrants literally fleeing for their lives.

the_gastropod

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 138
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Brooklyn, NY
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #864 on: February 08, 2018, 09:37:04 AM »
"He makes liberals angry therefore I love him" seems to sum it up nicely.

A terrible sentiment for a system of government...

Regarding exposure of surveillance being to Trump's credit... Have you heard of Edward Snowden.....?

I think there is a fundamental difference between liberals and republican principals. Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.

Hmm.  What about:
- Using government powers to legislate that women what women can do with their bodies?
- Using government powers to institute tariffs that end up preventing private individuals from selling their product outside of the country?
- Using government powers to prevent the free movement of people across borders?
- Using government powers to keep losing the war on drugs (an attempt to control what people can choose to put in their own bodies)?
- Using government powers to illegally kidnap and torture people while holding them indefinitely without chance of fair trial?

That certainly sounds like a party that wants to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.  Good thing the right doesn't support any of those issues.  :P

whataboutism

While I'm a fan of calling out whataboutism, this is not, by any definition I'm familiar with, whataboutism. GuitarStv is refuting Greenback's claim that there's a difference between liberals and conservatives, in that ONLY liberals "want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance". GuitarStv, correctly, cites examples of conservatives doing this. Whatbaoutism is virtually anytime Obama or Hillary are brought up when a criticism of Trump arises. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Quote
Legit points though.  I want a small government party, fiscally responsible (I used to say conservative but the word just doesn't mean what it used to).  I want that government to stay away from social issues entirely.  There is no party like that anymore.
And there never has been (not in the U.S. anyway). Anytime there are power discrepancies between groups of people, there needs to be a protector of those being exploited.

Quote
What's crazy to me is that, standing back and looking at it objectively, Trump really hasn't done a whole lot.  He's said some shit, sure.  He's planning some shit, sure.  But he's wildly ineffective and very little has changed in the world as a result of his presidency.

But if you look at the coverage of his presidency, you'd think the world was ending.  Without question, by this point, GWB had made far more impactful changes to the country.

Trump is pushing the boundaries of what our democracy can tolerate, and the Republicans are largely on board. It's worrying. The release of the Nunes memo, for example, is *absolutely* an attempt to discredit our highest law enforcement institutions. Law enforcement institutions investigating him for potentially treasonous activity. This is not normal. This is deserving of worry.

The man seems compelled to lie about everything. After the state of the union, he bragged that it was the most viewed state of the union ever. It didn't crack the top 5 (not that anyone would care, anyways). He is not well. The emperor has no clothes, and the Republican party is complicit in pretending otherwise because he's currently a useful idiot for them.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 09:50:38 AM by the_gastropod »

zoltani

  • Guest
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #865 on: February 08, 2018, 09:46:54 AM »
Kindly let me help you from drowing said the monkey as he put the fish safely up the tree.


zoltani

  • Guest
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #866 on: February 08, 2018, 10:07:13 AM »
Archimedes said, "Give me a fulcrum and I will move the Earth"; but there isn't one. It is like betting on the future of the human race — I might wish to lay a bet that the human race would destroy itself by the year 2000, but there is nowhere to place the bet. On the contrary, I am involved in the world and must try to see that it does not blow itself to pieces. I once had a terrible argument with Margaret Mead. She was holding forth one evening on the absolute horror of the atomic bomb, and how everybody should spring into action and abolish it, but she was getting so furious about it that I said to her: "You scare me because I think you are the kind of person who will push the button in order to get rid of the other people who were going to push it first." So she told me that I had no love for my future generations, that I had no responsibility for my children, and that I was a phony swami who believed in retreating from facts. But I maintained my position. As Robert Oppenheimer said a short while before he died, "It is perfectly obvious that the whole world is going to hell. The only possible chance that it might not is that we do not attempt to prevent it from doing so." You see, many of the troubles going on in the world right now are being supervised by people with very good intentions whose attempts are to keep things in order, to clean things up, to forbid this, and to prevent that. The more we try to put everything to rights, the more we make fantastic messes. Maybe that is the way it has got to be. Maybe I should not say anything at all about the folly of trying to put things to right but simply, on the principle of Blake, let the fool persist in his folly so that he will become wise.

    Play to Live : Lectures of Alan Watts

Samuel

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 215
  • Location: the slippery slope
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #867 on: February 08, 2018, 10:14:11 AM »
-My favorite thing though, is he knows how to get under the skin of a liberal, and understands how to manipulate them. With every breath he takes, every move he makes, every word he speaks, the liberals and media are on the verge of losing their collective minds. You don’t get him, he continues to beat you at your own game, and it drives liberals nuts. Which in all honesty is probably exactly what he wants, it’s absolutely brilliant. He has the democrats all so busy chasing their own tail you’re missing the big picture.
It is hilarious. And not  limited to dems, he did this throughout the R primary etc. I think it's a natural gift he has, he drives his opponents friggin nuts. He owns them. They get so frustrated they cease thinking clearly and just go into full mental Trump Derangement Syndrome mode. TDS FTW!

I say hilarious, but big-picture it's actually quite sad. A sad commentary on the media's (and millions of citizens) maturity level / rationality. One guy can get in their heads and cause hateful derangement of such magnitude.

Like this lady
http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/columns/Column-I-detest-Trump-but-a-redneck-fixed-my-Prius-with-zip-ties-_165095870
Holding hate so close in her heart, letting it own her and ruin her life, and giving this awful example to her daughter. She pre-judges the Good Samaritan who helped her, realizes how 'outraged' she is all the time, making her a worse person, and blames Trump for her own actions. So immature and irrational.

What I think is quite sad is that our president is a man whose primary political skill is inciting glee in supporters by provoking emotional overreactions and tactical disarray in opponents through the unrelenting flinging of of mean spirited attacks and blatant lies. Yes he's great at it but it's not leadership. It's a pathetic parody of leadership that is not making America great in any way. It's simply trashing civil society for the very short term gratifications of vanity and greed. People who celebrate that make me sad, but those who know better but stand silent as part of a cynical bargain to get tax cuts or pro life judges are, in my opinion at least, the most pathetic.

I actually agree that people have a responsibility to learn to protect themselves from this emotional and intellectual manipulation and am super frustrated by how long it is taking for people to catch on to and start ignoring this dumb distraction game. But I find it awfully weird for Trump supporters to simultaneously celebrate President Trump's obvious talents at trolling and mock their countrymen/women for allowing their passions to be manipulated by a gifted manipulator. Especially when they refuse to see the game is being played on them too, just not as heavy-handedly.

I'm procrastinating at work so I actually read that article. I found it hopeful. It's another person recognizing how we're all being played. My biggest hope is that enough people learn to put on goggles and forthrightly stride through the poop storm with a clear focus on the rot it's only providing cover for.

As I drove home, I felt the full extent to which Trump has actually diminished my own desire to be kind. He is keeping me so outraged that I hold ill will toward others on a daily basis. Trump is not just ruining our nation, he is ruining me. By the end of the drive, I felt heartbroken.

zoltani

  • Guest
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #868 on: February 08, 2018, 10:36:41 AM »
If people are kept in a constant state of mental confusion, cognitive dissonance, then they have trouble thinking for themselves and drawing their own conclusions. I think you're right that the manipulation taking place is fascinating and quite terrifying. I believe this is very deliberate and happens on both sides. For example Obama won a Nobel peace prize but also the first president to drone strike an American on foreign soil with no trial. That's certainly a mind Fuck.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12073
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #869 on: February 08, 2018, 10:44:27 AM »
If people are kept in a constant state of mental confusion, cognitive dissonance, then they have trouble thinking for themselves and drawing their own conclusions. I think you're right that the manipulation taking place is fascinating and quite terrifying. I believe this is very deliberate and happens on both sides. For example Obama won a Nobel peace prize but also the first president to drone strike an American on foreign soil with no trial. That's certainly a mind Fuck.

Obama winning the nobel peace prize was straight up stupid.  I don't know what they were thinking.

Greenback Reproduction Specialist

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 432
  • Location: Running barefoot thru Idaho mountains
    • Black Sheep With Feet
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #870 on: February 08, 2018, 11:03:58 AM »
...I had a well thought out lengthy response that was truly ground breaking, it would have made everyone rethink everything they thought they knew and consider their position on deep subjects. But a slip of the finger caused it to be lost.... Maybe later I will try to recreate it in all its glory.

For now this amazing quote will have to do instead.

Obama winning the nobel peace prize was straight up stupid.  I don't know what they were thinking.

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2149
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #871 on: February 08, 2018, 11:13:48 AM »
...I had a well thought out lengthy response that was truly ground breaking, it would have made everyone rethink everything they thought they knew and consider their position on deep subjects. But a slip of the finger caused it to be lost.... Maybe later I will try to recreate it in all its glory.

For now this amazing quote will have to do instead.

Obama winning the nobel peace prize was straight up stupid.  I don't know what they were thinking.

Is that really so amazing? I don't remember seeing much crowing on the left about Obama's Nobel. I remember being perplexed when it happened, and haven't thought much about it since then.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12073
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #872 on: February 08, 2018, 11:18:19 AM »
...I had a well thought out lengthy response that was truly ground breaking, it would have made everyone rethink everything they thought they knew and consider their position on deep subjects. But a slip of the finger caused it to be lost.... Maybe later I will try to recreate it in all its glory.

For now this amazing quote will have to do instead.

Obama winning the nobel peace prize was straight up stupid.  I don't know what they were thinking.

To be fair to Obama . . . even he seemed to kinda think it was stupid.  From his acceptance speech:

"I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge the considerable controversy that your generous decision has generated. In part, this is because I am at the beginning, and not the end, of my labors ... my accomplishments are slight. And then there are the men and women around the world who have been jailed and beaten in the pursuit of justice; those who toil in humanitarian organizations to relieve suffering; the unrecognized millions whose quiet acts of courage and compassion inspire even the most hardened cynics. I cannot argue with those who find these men and women – some known, some obscure to all but those they help – to be far more deserving of this honor than I."

partgypsy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2357
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #873 on: February 08, 2018, 11:25:29 AM »
If that is the case then it should have been an open and shut case of discrimination and would never have made it to the supreme court. Should be an easy one for the high court to decide then.

It was pretty open and shut from the perspective of the Colorado judge. I guess we'll find out.

Quote
Link

Phillips admitted he had turned away other same-sex couples as a matter of policy. The CCRD’s decision noted evidence in the record that Phillips had expressed willingness to take a cake order for the “marriage” of two dogs, but not for the commitment ceremony of two women, and that he would not make a cake for a same-sex couple’s wedding celebration “just as he would not be willing to make a pedophile cake.”

“Masterpiece Cakeshop has willfully and repeatedly considered itself above the law when it comes to discriminating against customers, and the state has rightly determined otherwise,” said Sara R. Neel, staff attorney with the ACLU of Colorado. “It’s important for all Coloradans to be treated fairly by every business that is open to the public – that’s good for business and good for the community.”

This is the world we live in.

yes, those pedophile cakes are in high demand.

TheOldestYoungMan

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 749
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #874 on: February 08, 2018, 11:26:08 AM »

While I'm a fan of calling out whataboutism, this is not, by any definition I'm familiar with, whataboutism. GuitarStv is refuting Greenback's claim that there's a difference between liberals and conservatives, in that ONLY liberals "want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance". GuitarStv, correctly, cites examples of conservatives doing this. Whatbaoutism is virtually anytime Obama or Hillary are brought up when a criticism of Trump arises. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism


Actually, whataboutism is bringing up an irrelevant alternative that is also bad to justify your own badness.  There's an inherent hypocrisy in calling it out, which your comment perfectly illustrates.  There's either a problem with Trump, independent of other considerations, or there is not.  There's either a problem with HRC, independent of other considerations, or there is not.  Whataboutism is used by both sides to deflect attention from their own shortcomings.  I may not be good, but nobody is good, so what's your problem?

It is fundamental to modern politics.  I don't know who started it, but as some examples:

Bush:  But what about the terrorists.
Obama: But what about Bush.
HRC: But what about Trump.
Sanders: But what about HRC.
Trump: But what about HRC.
You: But what about TOYM.

Etc.

Quote
Trump is pushing the boundaries of what our democracy can tolerate, and the Republicans are largely on board. It's worrying. The release of the Nunes memo, for example, is *absolutely* an attempt to discredit our highest law enforcement institutions. Law enforcement institutions investigating him for potentially treasonous activity. This is not normal. This is deserving of worry.

The man seems compelled to lie about everything. After the state of the union, he bragged that it was the most viewed state of the union ever. It didn't crack the top 5 (not that anyone would care, anyways). He is not well. The emperor has no clothes, and the Republican party is complicit in pretending otherwise because he's currently a useful idiot for them.

I don't really know what to make of this.  It doesn't reflect the reality I'm currently occupying, I'm not sure which planet you're on.  Over here, nobody is under the impression Trump has any idea what's going on.  The most shocking thing about the FBI stuff is that suddenly Democrats are coming to the defense of the FBI.  Talk about your hypocritical politically motivated flips.  Remember, the FBI kills/incarcerates black people.  No, I get it, they're going after an enemy of yours so its OK now.

Trump is a compulsive liar!  Spread the news!  Yes, he is a politician now.  What you are seeing is not something new, what you are seeing is incompetence.  Your particular brand of politician hasn't been as lazy as Trump, they took the time to craft more self-serving less-obvious lies.  Trump lies for seemingly no reason at all, it isn't malicious, he just doesn't know the truth.  That concerns me a whole lot less than the available alternatives.

That last bit is at the core of it.  He's an idiot.  There's either a concerted effort to undermine democracy and fundamentally change the country, or he's an idiot.  There isn't both, there's no puppet master, this is a shit-show from day one.  It was absolutely preventable and we should all be outraged, but you're directing your anger at all the wrong people and your plans to fix it/prevent it happening again are not going to work.

Samuel

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 215
  • Location: the slippery slope
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #875 on: February 08, 2018, 11:26:56 AM »
If people are kept in a constant state of mental confusion, cognitive dissonance, then they have trouble thinking for themselves and drawing their own conclusions. I think you're right that the manipulation taking place is fascinating and quite terrifying. I believe this is very deliberate and happens on both sides. For example Obama won a Nobel peace prize but also the first president to drone strike an American on foreign soil with no trial. That's certainly a mind Fuck.

Obama winning the nobel peace prize was straight up stupid.  I don't know what they were thinking.

They were patting America on the back for so crisply reversing course from the President Bush era. President Obama clearly found it both wildly premature and politically inconvenient, but that's an award you just can't decline.

"I do not view it as a recognition of my own accomplishments but rather an affirmation of American leadership on behalf of aspirations held by people in all nations."

He also clearly saw the contradictions: "perhaps the most profound issue surrounding my receipt of this prize is the fact that I am the Commander-in-Chief of the military of a nation in the midst of two wars."


MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1705
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #876 on: February 08, 2018, 11:30:17 AM »
If people are kept in a constant state of mental confusion, cognitive dissonance, then they have trouble thinking for themselves and drawing their own conclusions. I think you're right that the manipulation taking place is fascinating and quite terrifying. I believe this is very deliberate and happens on both sides. For example Obama won a Nobel peace prize but also the first president to drone strike an American on foreign soil with no trial. That's certainly a mind Fuck.

Indeed it is. But he was awarded the prize in 2009 and the missile strike came later in 2011. And to be even more fair, many of Obama's supporters did not agree with awarding him the prize. Hell I didn't even know he won it, or just forgot.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 11:45:29 AM by MasterStache »

zoltani

  • Guest
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #877 on: February 08, 2018, 11:34:47 AM »
Perhaps you need a different example from the left. Gender is a social construct, if people want to switch genders we should support them. We are OK with giving kids puberty blockers until they can decide if they want to go through surgery. I'm not sure which is a construct now. However, I do see the hypocrisy.

Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #878 on: February 08, 2018, 11:34:51 AM »
...I had a well thought out lengthy response that was truly ground breaking, it would have made everyone rethink everything they thought they knew and consider their position on deep subjects. But a slip of the finger caused it to be lost.... Maybe later I will try to recreate it in all its glory.

For now this amazing quote will have to do instead.

Obama winning the nobel peace prize was straight up stupid.  I don't know what they were thinking.

To be fair to Obama . . . even he seemed to kinda think it was stupid.  From his acceptance speech:

"I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge the considerable controversy that your generous decision has generated. In part, this is because I am at the beginning, and not the end, of my labors ... my accomplishments are slight. And then there are the men and women around the world who have been jailed and beaten in the pursuit of justice; those who toil in humanitarian organizations to relieve suffering; the unrecognized millions whose quiet acts of courage and compassion inspire even the most hardened cynics. I cannot argue with those who find these men and women – some known, some obscure to all but those they help – to be far more deserving of this honor than I."

I wonder what Trump would have said if he was given the Nobel peace prize? I tried reading this in Trump's voice and I laughed out loud when I got to "my accomplishments are slight".

Greenback Reproduction Specialist

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 432
  • Location: Running barefoot thru Idaho mountains
    • Black Sheep With Feet
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #879 on: February 08, 2018, 11:38:23 AM »
...I had a well thought out lengthy response that was truly ground breaking, it would have made everyone rethink everything they thought they knew and consider their position on deep subjects. But a slip of the finger caused it to be lost.... Maybe later I will try to recreate it in all its glory.

For now this amazing quote will have to do instead.

Obama winning the nobel peace prize was straight up stupid.  I don't know what they were thinking.

To be fair to Obama . . . even he seemed to kinda think it was stupid.  From his acceptance speech:

"I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge the considerable controversy that your generous decision has generated. In part, this is because I am at the beginning, and not the end, of my labors ... my accomplishments are slight. And then there are the men and women around the world who have been jailed and beaten in the pursuit of justice; those who toil in humanitarian organizations to relieve suffering; the unrecognized millions whose quiet acts of courage and compassion inspire even the most hardened cynics. I cannot argue with those who find these men and women – some known, some obscure to all but those they help – to be far more deserving of this honor than I."

Yes, it is more of an illustration of the blinding infatuation the media and global elite had for him. It was like he was surrounded by a bunch of "Yes men".

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12073
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #880 on: February 08, 2018, 11:39:03 AM »
...I had a well thought out lengthy response that was truly ground breaking, it would have made everyone rethink everything they thought they knew and consider their position on deep subjects. But a slip of the finger caused it to be lost.... Maybe later I will try to recreate it in all its glory.

For now this amazing quote will have to do instead.

Obama winning the nobel peace prize was straight up stupid.  I don't know what they were thinking.

To be fair to Obama . . . even he seemed to kinda think it was stupid.  From his acceptance speech:

"I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge the considerable controversy that your generous decision has generated. In part, this is because I am at the beginning, and not the end, of my labors ... my accomplishments are slight. And then there are the men and women around the world who have been jailed and beaten in the pursuit of justice; those who toil in humanitarian organizations to relieve suffering; the unrecognized millions whose quiet acts of courage and compassion inspire even the most hardened cynics. I cannot argue with those who find these men and women – some known, some obscure to all but those they help – to be far more deserving of this honor than I."

I wonder what Trump would have said if he was given the Nobel peace prize? I tried reading this in Trump's voice and I laughed out loud when I got to "my accomplishments are slight".

It's hard to get past acknowledge in Trumps voice . . . that is a three syllable word.

Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #881 on: February 08, 2018, 11:45:46 AM »

While I'm a fan of calling out whataboutism, this is not, by any definition I'm familiar with, whataboutism. GuitarStv is refuting Greenback's claim that there's a difference between liberals and conservatives, in that ONLY liberals "want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance". GuitarStv, correctly, cites examples of conservatives doing this. Whatbaoutism is virtually anytime Obama or Hillary are brought up when a criticism of Trump arises. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism


Actually, whataboutism is bringing up an irrelevant alternative that is also bad to justify your own badness.  There's an inherent hypocrisy in calling it out, which your comment perfectly illustrates.  There's either a problem with Trump, independent of other considerations, or there is not.  There's either a problem with HRC, independent of other considerations, or there is not.  Whataboutism is used by both sides to deflect attention from their own shortcomings.  I may not be good, but nobody is good, so what's your problem?

It is fundamental to modern politics.  I don't know who started it, but as some examples:

Bush:  But what about the terrorists.
Obama: But what about Bush.
HRC: But what about Trump.
Sanders: But what about HRC.
Trump: But what about HRC.
You: But what about TOYM.

Etc.


You left out a critical part of this conversation.


I think there is a fundamental difference between liberals and republican principals. Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.

From Wikipedia:
Quote
Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument

the gastropod did in fact directly refute GRS's arguement by contending that republican principles do not have this fundamental difference that GRS was claiming they did.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 11:48:41 AM by Dabnasty »

TheOldestYoungMan

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 749
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #882 on: February 08, 2018, 11:47:41 AM »
If that is the case then it should have been an open and shut case of discrimination and would never have made it to the supreme court. Should be an easy one for the high court to decide then.

It was pretty open and shut from the perspective of the Colorado judge. I guess we'll find out.

Quote
Link

Phillips admitted he had turned away other same-sex couples as a matter of policy. The CCRD’s decision noted evidence in the record that Phillips had expressed willingness to take a cake order for the “marriage” of two dogs, but not for the commitment ceremony of two women, and that he would not make a cake for a same-sex couple’s wedding celebration “just as he would not be willing to make a pedophile cake.”

“Masterpiece Cakeshop has willfully and repeatedly considered itself above the law when it comes to discriminating against customers, and the state has rightly determined otherwise,” said Sara R. Neel, staff attorney with the ACLU of Colorado. “It’s important for all Coloradans to be treated fairly by every business that is open to the public – that’s good for business and good for the community.”

This is the world we live in.

yes, those pedophile cakes are in high demand.

I would eat a cake made out of pedophiles.  As long as it had bbq sauce.

I can't support using violence to make someone bake a cake.  It's stupid.  All other aspects of this are irrelevant.  The state cannot compel a citizen to bake a cake.  There's just no basis for it.  cake is not important enough.  I don't really know how to explain this to anyone that doesn't understand it.  All the complex arguments for the legal basis are so much bullshit.  There's no good reason to compel the creation of cake.  Cake by itself guarantees someone will create it.  All it had to be was delicious.

Or pretty, I guess some people like it because it's pretty.

I don't particularly like cake if I'm honest, I prefer a good brownie.  But we're talking about cake here for some reason.

I don't know where you draw this particular line, but it isn't at the cake level.  At some point, yes, a homosexual should not be able to be denied service based on that.  At the government cake shop sure, because the government shouldn't discriminate, cake for everyone sure.  At the corporate cake store...eh it's hard for a corporation to survive the market with policies like that so I can see them choosing not to, and then I can make a case for dismissing an employee for failing to make the cake.  That's fine.

But I'm certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, it is wrong to use violence to compel the baking of cakes, and that's what happens if you say the owner/operator of a cake shop can't refuse a commission, and his reason why doesn't matter.

Maybe if there was a monopoly in charge of all baked goods, and this was the sole source, then maybe you could identify actual harm that was done.  But you can't.

We can call the baker misguided, homophobic, or stupid.  But there's no law that says you have to bake a cake, and if there is a law that says that we should change it, because it's not right to compel the baking of cakes.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12073
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #883 on: February 08, 2018, 12:01:02 PM »
I can't support using violence to make someone bake a cake.  It's stupid.

Agreed.  That would be.  It's a good thing that the gay couple didn't do this, or they would likely be heading to prison.  If the government was doing this, it would be pretty oppressive.  Fortunately, that's not the case either!



The state cannot compel a citizen to bake a cake.

We can call the baker misguided, homophobic, or stupid.  But there's no law that says you have to bake a cake, and if there is a law that says that we should change it, because it's not right to compel the baking of cakes.

Nobody's compelling anyone to bake a cake.  There's no law saying that a cake has to be baked.  There is a law requiring that you treat other citizens equally while you're operating a business under the permission of the government.  If the baker doesn't like the rules, he's free to stop operating his business.  There's no violence at all, the only person compelling the baker to keep baking is himself.

shenlong55

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 364
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Kentucky
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #884 on: February 08, 2018, 12:02:24 PM »
If that is the case then it should have been an open and shut case of discrimination and would never have made it to the supreme court. Should be an easy one for the high court to decide then.

It was pretty open and shut from the perspective of the Colorado judge. I guess we'll find out.

Quote
Link

Phillips admitted he had turned away other same-sex couples as a matter of policy. The CCRD’s decision noted evidence in the record that Phillips had expressed willingness to take a cake order for the “marriage” of two dogs, but not for the commitment ceremony of two women, and that he would not make a cake for a same-sex couple’s wedding celebration “just as he would not be willing to make a pedophile cake.”

“Masterpiece Cakeshop has willfully and repeatedly considered itself above the law when it comes to discriminating against customers, and the state has rightly determined otherwise,” said Sara R. Neel, staff attorney with the ACLU of Colorado. “It’s important for all Coloradans to be treated fairly by every business that is open to the public – that’s good for business and good for the community.”

This is the world we live in.

yes, those pedophile cakes are in high demand.

I would eat a cake made out of pedophiles.  As long as it had bbq sauce.

I can't support using violence to make someone bake a cake.  It's stupid.  All other aspects of this are irrelevant.  The state cannot compel a citizen to bake a cake.  There's just no basis for it.  cake is not important enough.  I don't really know how to explain this to anyone that doesn't understand it.  All the complex arguments for the legal basis are so much bullshit.  There's no good reason to compel the creation of cake.  Cake by itself guarantees someone will create it.  All it had to be was delicious.

Or pretty, I guess some people like it because it's pretty.

I don't particularly like cake if I'm honest, I prefer a good brownie.  But we're talking about cake here for some reason.

I don't know where you draw this particular line, but it isn't at the cake level.  At some point, yes, a homosexual should not be able to be denied service based on that.  At the government cake shop sure, because the government shouldn't discriminate, cake for everyone sure.  At the corporate cake store...eh it's hard for a corporation to survive the market with policies like that so I can see them choosing not to, and then I can make a case for dismissing an employee for failing to make the cake.  That's fine.

But I'm certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, it is wrong to use violence to compel the baking of cakes, and that's what happens if you say the owner/operator of a cake shop can't refuse a commission, and his reason why doesn't matter.

Maybe if there was a monopoly in charge of all baked goods, and this was the sole source, then maybe you could identify actual harm that was done.  But you can't.

We can call the baker misguided, homophobic, or stupid.  But there's no law that says you have to bake a cake, and if there is a law that says that we should change it, because it's not right to compel the baking of cakes.

So, I'm kind of on the fence about this topic and I've been meaning to ask a question of someone that takes your position.  Would it be okay, in your view, for me to start a business and then deny my services to someone because of their religion?  How about because of their age?  Or race/sex?  How far does this freedom of association go?  I just feel like if the guy who wouldn't bake a cake for a gay couple walked into my store and was turned away due to his religion he would probably not be okay with it.

PoutineLover

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 950
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #885 on: February 08, 2018, 12:03:41 PM »
If that is the case then it should have been an open and shut case of discrimination and would never have made it to the supreme court. Should be an easy one for the high court to decide then.

It was pretty open and shut from the perspective of the Colorado judge. I guess we'll find out.

Quote
Link

Phillips admitted he had turned away other same-sex couples as a matter of policy. The CCRD’s decision noted evidence in the record that Phillips had expressed willingness to take a cake order for the “marriage” of two dogs, but not for the commitment ceremony of two women, and that he would not make a cake for a same-sex couple’s wedding celebration “just as he would not be willing to make a pedophile cake.”

“Masterpiece Cakeshop has willfully and repeatedly considered itself above the law when it comes to discriminating against customers, and the state has rightly determined otherwise,” said Sara R. Neel, staff attorney with the ACLU of Colorado. “It’s important for all Coloradans to be treated fairly by every business that is open to the public – that’s good for business and good for the community.”

This is the world we live in.

yes, those pedophile cakes are in high demand.

I would eat a cake made out of pedophiles.  As long as it had bbq sauce.

I can't support using violence to make someone bake a cake.  It's stupid.  All other aspects of this are irrelevant.  The state cannot compel a citizen to bake a cake.  There's just no basis for it.  cake is not important enough.  I don't really know how to explain this to anyone that doesn't understand it.  All the complex arguments for the legal basis are so much bullshit.  There's no good reason to compel the creation of cake.  Cake by itself guarantees someone will create it.  All it had to be was delicious.

Or pretty, I guess some people like it because it's pretty.

I don't particularly like cake if I'm honest, I prefer a good brownie.  But we're talking about cake here for some reason.

I don't know where you draw this particular line, but it isn't at the cake level.  At some point, yes, a homosexual should not be able to be denied service based on that.  At the government cake shop sure, because the government shouldn't discriminate, cake for everyone sure.  At the corporate cake store...eh it's hard for a corporation to survive the market with policies like that so I can see them choosing not to, and then I can make a case for dismissing an employee for failing to make the cake.  That's fine.

But I'm certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, it is wrong to use violence to compel the baking of cakes, and that's what happens if you say the owner/operator of a cake shop can't refuse a commission, and his reason why doesn't matter.

Maybe if there was a monopoly in charge of all baked goods, and this was the sole source, then maybe you could identify actual harm that was done.  But you can't.

We can call the baker misguided, homophobic, or stupid.  But there's no law that says you have to bake a cake, and if there is a law that says that we should change it, because it's not right to compel the baking of cakes.
The point isn't the cake, the point is the discrimination. I believe that everyone should be treated equally, and your ability to buy a cake should not depend on your sexual orientation. Are you trying to make the argument that businesses should be allowed to discriminate? Why?

Scandium

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2173
  • Location: EastCoast
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #886 on: February 08, 2018, 12:09:37 PM »
Talk about your hypocritical politically motivated flips.  Remember, the FBI kills/incarcerates black people.  No, I get it, they're going after an enemy of yours so its OK now.

Where exactly can I read about Democrats saying the FBI kills black people? They don't really do much street arrests of low-level (alleged) criminals/random people. So BLM etc have mainly focused on (often poorly trained) local police. Or were you just parroting "liberals hate police", because you are unable to see nuance?

TheOldestYoungMan

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 749
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #887 on: February 08, 2018, 12:15:57 PM »

the gastropod did in fact directly refute GRS's arguement by contending that republican principles do not have this fundamental difference that GRS was claiming they did.

Wow man.  GRS made a claim about Democratic principles, and gastropod defended those democratic principles by saying "what about..."  The Democratic principles were not defended.  The original claim:

"Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance."

The broader claim, that this is in contrast to the Republican party, of course makes it relevant.

So was gastropod claiming Liberals are not authoritarian?  If so, then the presented arguments were, in fact, whataboutisms.  That would be the use as Democrats are trying to apply it to Trump.

If instead gastropod was claiming that both are authoritarian, then yes, you are correct Dabnasty, the presentation of examples of Republicans being authoritarian do not fall into the logical fallacy.  I did make an assumption in calling it whataboutism, but in my defense, I was making fun of people who call it out.  The inherent assumptions you have to make about both sides of the argument for a charge like that to stick make it unsuitable for its deployment where I'm seeing it nowadays.  So instead of having real conversations we devolve into rhetorical bullshit because we're trying to point out logical fallacies instead of trying to understand each other.  We're trying to be clever and cute instead of identifying common ground.

Instead of addressing the obvious issue when we perceive the logical fallacy, like I should have, we just shout whataboutism and congratulate ourselves on being clever.  I don't have any real hope of changing a person's mind on the relative authoritarian tendencies of our two major parties though, so I let it go.

But perhaps there was an opportunity there.

TheOldestYoungMan

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 749
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #888 on: February 08, 2018, 12:19:02 PM »
Talk about your hypocritical politically motivated flips.  Remember, the FBI kills/incarcerates black people.  No, I get it, they're going after an enemy of yours so its OK now.

Where exactly can I read about Democrats saying the FBI kills black people? They don't really do much street arrests of low-level (alleged) criminals/random people. So BLM etc have mainly focused on (often poorly trained) local police. Or were you just parroting "liberals hate police", because you are unable to see nuance?

Uh, you'd need to go back to the reaction post-FBI investigation of some of the 2015/2016 police shootings to see the rhetoric I was referring to.  Essentially, whenever the FBI investigates if there were civil rights issues with the local police and doesn't find that they were in fact poorly trained, that it was a "righteous shoot," you see it.  Because clearly that's impossible, because clearly its always racism.  Or were you just parroting "you disagree with me so you must not know what you're talking about," because you have a selective memory?

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3348
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #889 on: February 08, 2018, 12:24:09 PM »
If people are kept in a constant state of mental confusion, cognitive dissonance, then they have trouble thinking for themselves and drawing their own conclusions. I think you're right that the manipulation taking place is fascinating and quite terrifying. I believe this is very deliberate and happens on both sides. For example Obama won a Nobel peace prize but also the first president to drone strike an American on foreign soil with no trial. That's certainly a mind Fuck.

Obama winning the nobel peace prize was straight up stupid.  I don't know what they were thinking.

True. But that choice had nothing to do with the US government. Or Obama himself, for that matter.

simonsez

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 697
  • Age: 32
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #890 on: February 08, 2018, 12:29:12 PM »
If you define life begins with conception, anti-abortion by definition saves lives.  That is my only point.
Serious question: do a non-negligible proportion of the U.S. population define life as starting from that point?

I always thought the vast majority of Americans consider their age and when the anniversary of their age occurs as stemming from birth - NOT conception.  I guess most government and official forms ask for birth date which is unambiguous (a good thing) but any that asked for age would have complications with the pre-birth life definition.

Wexler

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 370
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #891 on: February 08, 2018, 12:47:03 PM »

I would eat a cake made out of pedophiles.  As long as it had bbq sauce.

I can't support using violence to make someone bake a cake.  It's stupid.  All other aspects of this are irrelevant.  The state cannot compel a citizen to bake a cake.  There's just no basis for it.  cake is not important enough.  I don't really know how to explain this to anyone that doesn't understand it.  All the complex arguments for the legal basis are so much bullshit.  There's no good reason to compel the creation of cake.  Cake by itself guarantees someone will create it.  All it had to be was delicious.

Or pretty, I guess some people like it because it's pretty.

I don't particularly like cake if I'm honest, I prefer a good brownie.  But we're talking about cake here for some reason.

I don't know where you draw this particular line, but it isn't at the cake level.  At some point, yes, a homosexual should not be able to be denied service based on that.  At the government cake shop sure, because the government shouldn't discriminate, cake for everyone sure.  At the corporate cake store...eh it's hard for a corporation to survive the market with policies like that so I can see them choosing not to, and then I can make a case for dismissing an employee for failing to make the cake.  That's fine.

But I'm certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, it is wrong to use violence to compel the baking of cakes, and that's what happens if you say the owner/operator of a cake shop can't refuse a commission, and his reason why doesn't matter.

Maybe if there was a monopoly in charge of all baked goods, and this was the sole source, then maybe you could identify actual harm that was done.  But you can't.

We can call the baker misguided, homophobic, or stupid.  But there's no law that says you have to bake a cake, and if there is a law that says that we should change it, because it's not right to compel the baking of cakes.

I guess. I mean, those arguments were advanced about who got to sit at the lunch counter (they can just find ANOTHER place to eat!  But what about MUH FREEDUMZ running a private business? How dare the government tell me who to serve?), and our society-through the courts-decided that private businesses don't get to discriminate against protected minority classes. 

And then, as now, people in the majority unlikely to be affected by someone not serving them lunch, selling them a house, or hiring them even when they were qualified, fell back on free market arguments.  Which is convenient, because the free market approaches in the past favored them and permitted widespread discrimination against others.  So, it's easy to be sanguine about it (what's the big deal, dude? It's just a cake.) when it's not terribly likely that anyone is going to discriminate against them.  One of the arguments advanced in this case is that making a cake is a special kind of business that requires creative output and artist buy-in.  I think they are trying to distinguish from the lunch counter case. I'm not convinced.  They are a business selling a service with a design component, but we'll see what the courts say.  Maybe in this shitty timeline we'll have bathroom tilers who refuse to mosaic for minorities, hairdressers who can't possibly work their magic on Asian hair, etc.

TheOldestYoungMan

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 749
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #892 on: February 08, 2018, 12:52:26 PM »
If you define life begins with conception, anti-abortion by definition saves lives.  That is my only point.
Serious question: do a non-negligible proportion of the U.S. population define life as starting from that point?

I always thought the vast majority of Americans consider their age and when the anniversary of their age occurs as stemming from birth - NOT conception.  I guess most government and official forms ask for birth date which is unambiguous (a good thing) but any that asked for age would have complications with the pre-birth life definition.

Well there's a couple of different ways to answer that.  In general, the question of age is measured from birth.  Birth being a clearly defined and documented arbitrary point in time vs. conception which is typically less so.  When trying to gather data, the fixed point of date of birth is going to generally be more useful, simply due to availability of the data.

As to where most consider life beginning, well, that's the conversational landmine of our time.  There is an ethically inconvenient arbitrary point in time at which a fertile egg and a viable sperm interact to form a thing that predates the "scientific" definition, which some consider the beginning.  Others consider a later arbitrary time defined "by scientists" post conception but prior to birth that they find ethically convenient.  There is the classic consideration of it beginning at birth.  The members of each of these camps represent significant numbers of population.

The only real minority opinions are that it begins after a clear ability to indicate a desire to live, so that would be 3-4 years old, which I find to be a funny definition that's fun to theorize about.

My personal favorite definition of when life begins, and thus when interference with constitutes murder, is when a fertile person desires conception with another fertile person.  Thus, not having sex with me is murder.  I'd say that's a very minor fraction of the population that holds that view.

Nevertheless, everyone is absolutely convinced theirs is the only definition that makes any sense, and that everyone else is not only wrong, but maliciously so.

Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1204
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #893 on: February 08, 2018, 12:55:07 PM »

the gastropod did in fact directly refute GRS's arguement by contending that republican principles do not have this fundamental difference that GRS was claiming they did.

Wow man.  GRS made a claim about Democratic principles, and gastropod defended those democratic principles by saying "what about..."  The Democratic principles were not defended.  The original claim:

"Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance."

Whataboutism is a specific concept. Using the words "what about" does not instantly qualify the statement as a whataboutism.

Quote
The broader claim, that this is in contrast to the Republican party, of course makes it relevant.

So was gastropod claiming Liberals are not authoritarian? 

No.

Quote
If so, then the presented arguments were, in fact, whataboutisms.  That would be the use as Democrats are trying to apply it to Trump.

If instead gastropod was claiming that both are authoritarian, then yes, you are correct Dabnasty, the presentation of examples of Republicans being authoritarian do not fall into the logical fallacy.  I did make an assumption in calling it whataboutism, but in my defense, I was making fun of people who call it out.  The inherent assumptions you have to make about both sides of the argument for a charge like that to stick make it unsuitable for its deployment where I'm seeing it nowadays.  So instead of having real conversations we devolve into rhetorical bullshit because we're trying to point out logical fallacies instead of trying to understand each other.  We're trying to be clever and cute instead of identifying common ground.

Instead of addressing the obvious issue when we perceive the logical fallacy, like I should have, we just shout whataboutism and congratulate ourselves on being clever.  I don't have any real hope of changing a person's mind on the relative authoritarian tendencies of our two major parties though, so I let it go.

But perhaps there was an opportunity there.

partgypsy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2357
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #894 on: February 08, 2018, 12:59:07 PM »

the gastropod did in fact directly refute GRS's arguement by contending that republican principles do not have this fundamental difference that GRS was claiming they did.

Wow man.  GRS made a claim about Democratic principles, and gastropod defended those democratic principles by saying "what about..."  The Democratic principles were not defended.  The original claim:

"Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance."

The broader claim, that this is in contrast to the Republican party, of course makes it relevant.

So was gastropod claiming Liberals are not authoritarian?  If so, then the presented arguments were, in fact, whataboutisms.  That would be the use as Democrats are trying to apply it to Trump.

If instead gastropod was claiming that both are authoritarian, then yes, you are correct Dabnasty, the presentation of examples of Republicans being authoritarian do not fall into the logical fallacy.  I did make an assumption in calling it whataboutism, but in my defense, I was making fun of people who call it out.  The inherent assumptions you have to make about both sides of the argument for a charge like that to stick make it unsuitable for its deployment where I'm seeing it nowadays.  So instead of having real conversations we devolve into rhetorical bullshit because we're trying to point out logical fallacies instead of trying to understand each other.  We're trying to be clever and cute instead of identifying common ground.

Instead of addressing the obvious issue when we perceive the logical fallacy, like I should have, we just shout whataboutism and congratulate ourselves on being clever.  I don't have any real hope of changing a person's mind on the relative authoritarian tendencies of our two major parties though, so I let it go.

But perhaps there was an opportunity there.

the original poster never gave any specific claims or instances how Democratic principals are forcing their view on everyone else. We'd have to figure out what was in the mind of that person to respond. However many Republican principals certainly come to mind. What they are doing to restrict access to reproductive services to women comes to mind. 
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 01:02:13 PM by partgypsy »

TheOldestYoungMan

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 749
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #895 on: February 08, 2018, 01:14:12 PM »

I would eat a cake made out of pedophiles.  As long as it had bbq sauce.

I can't support using violence to make someone bake a cake.  It's stupid.  All other aspects of this are irrelevant.  The state cannot compel a citizen to bake a cake.  There's just no basis for it.  cake is not important enough.  I don't really know how to explain this to anyone that doesn't understand it.  All the complex arguments for the legal basis are so much bullshit.  There's no good reason to compel the creation of cake.  Cake by itself guarantees someone will create it.  All it had to be was delicious.

Or pretty, I guess some people like it because it's pretty.

I don't particularly like cake if I'm honest, I prefer a good brownie.  But we're talking about cake here for some reason.

I don't know where you draw this particular line, but it isn't at the cake level.  At some point, yes, a homosexual should not be able to be denied service based on that.  At the government cake shop sure, because the government shouldn't discriminate, cake for everyone sure.  At the corporate cake store...eh it's hard for a corporation to survive the market with policies like that so I can see them choosing not to, and then I can make a case for dismissing an employee for failing to make the cake.  That's fine.

But I'm certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, it is wrong to use violence to compel the baking of cakes, and that's what happens if you say the owner/operator of a cake shop can't refuse a commission, and his reason why doesn't matter.

Maybe if there was a monopoly in charge of all baked goods, and this was the sole source, then maybe you could identify actual harm that was done.  But you can't.

We can call the baker misguided, homophobic, or stupid.  But there's no law that says you have to bake a cake, and if there is a law that says that we should change it, because it's not right to compel the baking of cakes.

I guess. I mean, those arguments were advanced about who got to sit at the lunch counter (they can just find ANOTHER place to eat!  But what about MUH FREEDUMZ running a private business? How dare the government tell me who to serve?), and our society-through the courts-decided that private businesses don't get to discriminate against protected minority classes. 

And then, as now, people in the majority unlikely to be affected by someone not serving them lunch, selling them a house, or hiring them even when they were qualified, fell back on free market arguments.  Which is convenient, because the free market approaches in the past favored them and permitted widespread discrimination against others.  So, it's easy to be sanguine about it (what's the big deal, dude? It's just a cake.) when it's not terribly likely that anyone is going to discriminate against them.  One of the arguments advanced in this case is that making a cake is a special kind of business that requires creative output and artist buy-in.  I think they are trying to distinguish from the lunch counter case. I'm not convinced.  They are a business selling a service with a design component, but we'll see what the courts say.  Maybe in this shitty timeline we'll have bathroom tilers who refuse to mosaic for minorities, hairdressers who can't possibly work their magic on Asian hair, etc.

We're not talking about lunch though.  I get what you're saying.  But this isn't transportation where we're saying you have to sit at the back or wait for the next bus.  This isn't access to food at all (or even right now).  And this isn't a widespread, economy-wide thing.  This is cake.

You can make a need-based argument for the other things.  You don't need cake.

And if you want to make it into a big thing, then it quickly becomes a much bigger thing.  If it isn't about cake, if it's about more than cake, then it has to include what the cake is for.  If that's involved, then the cake is for a wedding, which to the baker is a religious thing, and now you're forcing the baker to bake a cake for use in a religious ceremony.

The state sure-as-shit can't compel us to bake religious cakes.  There's a Jewish holy bread called like Challah or something, it's delicious, I eat it all the time, they sell it at the grocery store.  Right next to the wedding cakes.  It's pretty disingenuous to compare this to the state of affairs that preceded the civil rights movement.  We're not in separate-but-equal territory, we're in, "there's this one jackass that won't sell us a cake, lets bully him using the law" territory.  The minority here is not the homosexual, it's the baker with principles (misguided as those principles may be).  The jews will sell anyone their holy bread, because fuck you pay me.  Not all of the jews mind you, some ultra-orthodox will not permit me to eat their holy bread.  And their discrimination against me is specifically because of my religious affiliation.  There's nothing wrong with that, and it causes me no harm.  Therefore, something something, right, cake.

The state can't force a catholic church to give Jesus crackers to Muslims.  Point of order, at my Baptist church we give Jesus crackers to anyone, just have to be there for snacktime.  They don't check ID cards or nothin'.  The wine is a lie though, it's just juice.

The baker's actions can be wrong without being illegal, is all I'm saying.  And if you don't want to be forced to bake cake you should probably be on his side.  I've got important internet arguing I need to do, I can't be baking cake all day.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12073
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #896 on: February 08, 2018, 01:17:21 PM »
As was mentioned, nobody is compelling the baker to bake anything he doesn't want to.  If he voluntarily chooses to run a bakery, he needs to follow certain ground rules regarding discrimination.  He's free to choose to do something else with his time.  He's free to treat all customers as equal.  If he discriminates against a few customers, then he gets in trouble.  But nobody is forcing him to do anything he doesn't want to.

He operates his business by permission and at the whim of the government.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 01:34:13 PM by GuitarStv »

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7342
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #897 on: February 08, 2018, 01:24:23 PM »
But I'm certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, it is wrong to use violence to compel the baking of cakes, and that's what happens if you say the owner/operator of a cake shop can't refuse a commission, and his reason why doesn't matter.

Are you also sure that is wrong to use violence to compel the preparation of sandwiches for black people at your lunch counter?  Because we do that, too.  There was a whole movement about it.



partgypsy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2357
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #898 on: February 08, 2018, 01:33:23 PM »
I saw this on another forum regarding whataboutism, made me think of this thread (NOT my words)

Lol what about Obama . Can we try just for a minute to imagine what would have happened if in 2009 /10 when President Obama had just finished his first year in office — what if — he had historically low approval ratings & amid stock market volitality and a perpetual looming government shutdown and IF obama was head deep in the midst of numerous scandals ( from paying off an adulterous porn star affair to an unregistered charity he stole from and he had to close down plus many more), If he called various nations crapholes, and IF he was being investigated by the FBI for obstruction of justice, and many other things by a special prosecutor, & being investigated by Congress and the senate —

What if THEN Obama decided to ORDER the Pentagon to stage an unnecessary elaborate military parade for him. ( while of course saying it was for national pride) right after saying those who dont clap for him when he announces good news are committing treason.

:roll2:I am sure the republicans - if it was reversed - would have had a great sense of humor about the whole thing and said hey obama we know you dont mean any harm we can take a joke — lets just forget everything and call it good. :roll2:

partgypsy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2357
Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #899 on: February 08, 2018, 01:36:43 PM »

I would eat a cake made out of pedophiles.  As long as it had bbq sauce.

I can't support using violence to make someone bake a cake.  It's stupid.  All other aspects of this are irrelevant.  The state cannot compel a citizen to bake a cake.  There's just no basis for it.  cake is not important enough.  I don't really know how to explain this to anyone that doesn't understand it.  All the complex arguments for the legal basis are so much bullshit.  There's no good reason to compel the creation of cake.  Cake by itself guarantees someone will create it.  All it had to be was delicious.

Or pretty, I guess some people like it because it's pretty.

I don't particularly like cake if I'm honest, I prefer a good brownie.  But we're talking about cake here for some reason.

I don't know where you draw this particular line, but it isn't at the cake level.  At some point, yes, a homosexual should not be able to be denied service based on that.  At the government cake shop sure, because the government shouldn't discriminate, cake for everyone sure.  At the corporate cake store...eh it's hard for a corporation to survive the market with policies like that so I can see them choosing not to, and then I can make a case for dismissing an employee for failing to make the cake.  That's fine.

But I'm certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, it is wrong to use violence to compel the baking of cakes, and that's what happens if you say the owner/operator of a cake shop can't refuse a commission, and his reason why doesn't matter.

Maybe if there was a monopoly in charge of all baked goods, and this was the sole source, then maybe you could identify actual harm that was done.  But you can't.

We can call the baker misguided, homophobic, or stupid.  But there's no law that says you have to bake a cake, and if there is a law that says that we should change it, because it's not right to compel the baking of cakes.

I guess. I mean, those arguments were advanced about who got to sit at the lunch counter (they can just find ANOTHER place to eat!  But what about MUH FREEDUMZ running a private business? How dare the government tell me who to serve?), and our society-through the courts-decided that private businesses don't get to discriminate against protected minority classes. 

And then, as now, people in the majority unlikely to be affected by someone not serving them lunch, selling them a house, or hiring them even when they were qualified, fell back on free market arguments.  Which is convenient, because the free market approaches in the past favored them and permitted widespread discrimination against others.  So, it's easy to be sanguine about it (what's the big deal, dude? It's just a cake.) when it's not terribly likely that anyone is going to discriminate against them.  One of the arguments advanced in this case is that making a cake is a special kind of business that requires creative output and artist buy-in.  I think they are trying to distinguish from the lunch counter case. I'm not convinced.  They are a business selling a service with a design component, but we'll see what the courts say.  Maybe in this shitty timeline we'll have bathroom tilers who refuse to mosaic for minorities, hairdressers who can't possibly work their magic on Asian hair, etc.

We're not talking about lunch though.  I get what you're saying.  But this isn't transportation where we're saying you have to sit at the back or wait for the next bus.  This isn't access to food at all (or even right now).  And this isn't a widespread, economy-wide thing.  This is cake.

You can make a need-based argument for the other things.  You don't need cake.

And if you want to make it into a big thing, then it quickly becomes a much bigger thing.  If it isn't about cake, if it's about more than cake, then it has to include what the cake is for.  If that's involved, then the cake is for a wedding, which to the baker is a religious thing, and now you're forcing the baker to bake a cake for use in a religious ceremony.

The state sure-as-shit can't compel us to bake religious cakes.  There's a Jewish holy bread called like Challah or something, it's delicious, I eat it all the time, they sell it at the grocery store.  Right next to the wedding cakes.  It's pretty disingenuous to compare this to the state of affairs that preceded the civil rights movement.  We're not in separate-but-equal territory, we're in, "there's this one jackass that won't sell us a cake, lets bully him using the law" territory.  The minority here is not the homosexual, it's the baker with principles (misguided as those principles may be).  The jews will sell anyone their holy bread, because fuck you pay me.  Not all of the jews mind you, some ultra-orthodox will not permit me to eat their holy bread.  And their discrimination against me is specifically because of my religious affiliation.  There's nothing wrong with that, and it causes me no harm.  Therefore, something something, right, cake.

The state can't force a catholic church to give Jesus crackers to Muslims.  Point of order, at my Baptist church we give Jesus crackers to anyone, just have to be there for snacktime.  They don't check ID cards or nothin'.  The wine is a lie though, it's just juice.

The baker's actions can be wrong without being illegal, is all I'm saying.  And if you don't want to be forced to bake cake you should probably be on his side.  I've got important internet arguing I need to do, I can't be baking cake all day.

So you are comparing communion crackers to a cake? Uh, you do know the difference between a business and a church, right? They follow different rules. If the baker was actually running a small church yes he can decide who gets to eat his cake.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 01:38:14 PM by partgypsy »