Author Topic: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?  (Read 75037 times)

Kris

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #850 on: February 07, 2018, 02:32:05 PM »
Yeah. It's super-awesome that liberals are mad.

Meanwhile, Trump's presidency has actual consequences. Including for the military.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/02/ret-major-general-pens-jaw-dropping-damnation-trump-parade-not-commander-chief-right-now/

Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

OneCoolCat

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #851 on: February 07, 2018, 02:53:40 PM »
Isn't the whole FISA/Nunes Memo thing a red herring and simply a mischaracterization of what actually happened?  The "memo" actually showed the investigation began with George P. some time ago and we have subsequently learned: (1) the FISA court knew the funding of the Steele Dossier was politically motivated and (2) the court found their was sufficient NEW evidence presented on atleast 3 subsequent periods that qualified for a continued FISA warrant, which has a exceptionally high standard.
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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #852 on: February 07, 2018, 02:58:33 PM »
"He makes liberals angry therefore I love him" seems to sum it up nicely.

A terrible sentiment for a system of government...

Regarding exposure of surveillance being to Trump's credit... Have you heard of Edward Snowden.....?

I think there is a fundamental difference between liberals and republican principals. Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance. The part that is funny, is liberals are so convinced their way of thinking is correct that they believe they can predict the future, and everything Trump does ends in rising sea levels or world war 3. Its become total gloom and doom. In fairness, I think republican went through this stage as well a few years back, it was laughable too.

Yea Snowden exposed what "could happen", Trump is an example of what "did happen". So yea Snowden was right, and many of the critics mass surveillance have been proven right as well. We were told these things could not happen..... Well they did and now everyone, especially democrats should be fearful of the box of worms that was exposed. This needs to be revisited and changes need to be made, I think we should have bipartisan support on this.
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acroy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #853 on: February 07, 2018, 03:00:07 PM »
-My favorite thing though, is he knows how to get under the skin of a liberal, and understands how to manipulate them. With every breath he takes, every move he makes, every word he speaks, the liberals and media are on the verge of losing their collective minds. You don’t get him, he continues to beat you at your own game, and it drives liberals nuts. Which in all honesty is probably exactly what he wants, it’s absolutely brilliant. He has the democrats all so busy chasing their own tail you’re missing the big picture.
It is hilarious. And not  limited to dems, he did this throughout the R primary etc. I think it's a natural gift he has, he drives his opponents friggin nuts. He owns them. They get so frustrated they cease thinking clearly and just go into full mental Trump Derangement Syndrome mode. TDS FTW!

I say hilarious, but big-picture it's actually quite sad. A sad commentary on the media's (and millions of citizens) maturity level / rationality. One guy can get in their heads and cause hateful derangement of such magnitude.

Like this lady
http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/columns/Column-I-detest-Trump-but-a-redneck-fixed-my-Prius-with-zip-ties-_165095870
Holding hate so close in her heart, letting it own her and ruin her life, and giving this awful example to her daughter. She pre-judges the Good Samaritan who helped her, realizes how 'outraged' she is all the time, making her a worse person, and blames Trump for her own actions. So immature and irrational.
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zoltani

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #854 on: February 07, 2018, 03:10:54 PM »
Regarding the wedding cake do you think that an artist has the right to refuse work that they do not agree with? The wedding cake issue is exactly that. The baker did not refuse to sell them a product, he offered them a cake off the shelf, he refused to use their artistic expression to convey a message he does not agree with. Should artists be compelled to produce art that they do not agree with? Should a hindu artist be compelled to paint a painting depicting slain cows? Should a democrat artist be compelled to produce art depicting Trump as a great leader? Should a muslim newspaper be compelled to print cartoons of Muhammad?

Obviously these are the questions the supreme court will tackle. I support gay marriage, but this issues is more nuanced than media and people make it out to be.

They never got to the point in the discussion where the baker would have known whether it was or was not going to have "GOD BLESS GAY MARRIAGE" (or whatever you're dreaming of) on top of it.  For all they knew, it could have been a plain cake with nothing on it.  The conversation didn't make it that far and they were denied service simply because they were gay.

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Yet by all accounts, the happy couple did not ask Mr. Phillips for a cake bearing a message with which the baker might disagree — such as “God Bless This Gay Marriage,” as a group of First Amendment scholars hypothesized, or a rainbow flag. That could make for a harder case. Instead, the would-be customers stated only that they were seeking a wedding cake before Mr. Phillips said he could not serve them.

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Here’s what really happened. The couple went into the bakery. They were not there long before the baker realized they were a gay couple. At that point, the baker refused to serve them. The refusal was not because of what they wanted on their cake—they never even discussed the design—but only because they were gay. It was only later on, after the case had commenced, that the baker said he would sell them a bland, undecorated cake. (From a legal standpoint, even if that were factually true, we settled the whole separate is equal stupidity a few decades ago.)

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"The conversation was fairly short," Philips remembered. "I went over and greeted them. We sat down at the desk where I had my wedding books open."
The men told Phillips they wanted a cake to celebrate their planned wedding, which would be performed in another state. Phillips said he knew right away that he couldn't create the product they were looking for without violating his faith.

If that is the case then it should have been an open and shut case of discrimination and would never have made it to the supreme court. Should be an easy one for the high court to decide then.

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JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #855 on: February 07, 2018, 03:11:36 PM »
Isn't the whole FISA/Nunes Memo thing a red herring and simply a mischaracterization of what actually happened?  The "memo" actually showed the investigation began with George P. some time ago and we have subsequently learned: (1) the FISA court knew the funding of the Steele Dossier was politically motivated and (2) the court found their was sufficient NEW evidence presented on atleast 3 subsequent periods that qualified for a continued FISA warrant, which has a exceptionally high standard.

Pretty much.  From what I have seen so far, a tirade is unleashed any time a court system rules against DJT. Sometimes he rants about a "so-called judge", sometimes about how our court system is "broken and unfair," and sometimes accuses the court system and FBI of influencing the election (meanwhile we have undisputed proof that Russia has done exactly that).

It's hypocrisy at its finest.

JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #856 on: February 07, 2018, 03:18:04 PM »
If that is the case then it should have been an open and shut case of discrimination and would never have made it to the supreme court. Should be an easy one for the high court to decide then.

It was pretty open and shut from the perspective of the Colorado judge. I guess we'll find out.

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Phillips admitted he had turned away other same-sex couples as a matter of policy. The CCRD’s decision noted evidence in the record that Phillips had expressed willingness to take a cake order for the “marriage” of two dogs, but not for the commitment ceremony of two women, and that he would not make a cake for a same-sex couple’s wedding celebration “just as he would not be willing to make a pedophile cake.”

“Masterpiece Cakeshop has willfully and repeatedly considered itself above the law when it comes to discriminating against customers, and the state has rightly determined otherwise,” said Sara R. Neel, staff attorney with the ACLU of Colorado. “It’s important for all Coloradans to be treated fairly by every business that is open to the public – that’s good for business and good for the community.”

This is the world we live in.

zoltani

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #857 on: February 07, 2018, 03:27:32 PM »
I wonder how the precedent set in this case will affect the supreme court case.
 
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/california-judge-rules-bakery-owner-can-refuse-wedding-cake-same-sex-couples/

“A wedding cake is not just a cake in a Free Speech analysis,” wrote Superior Court Judge David R. Lampe in a decision late Monday. “It is an artistic expression by the person making it that is to be used traditionally as a centerpiece in the celebration of a marriage. There could not be a greater form of expressive conduct,” he said."

Note that the cake in question had no words.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 03:29:22 PM by zoltani »
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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #858 on: February 07, 2018, 03:48:03 PM »
I wonder how the precedent set in this case will affect the supreme court case.
 
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/california-judge-rules-bakery-owner-can-refuse-wedding-cake-same-sex-couples/

“A wedding cake is not just a cake in a Free Speech analysis,” wrote Superior Court Judge David R. Lampe in a decision late Monday. “It is an artistic expression by the person making it that is to be used traditionally as a centerpiece in the celebration of a marriage. There could not be a greater form of expressive conduct,” he said."

Note that the cake in question had no words.

I cannot believe a California judge (of all places), made that ruling.
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scottish

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #859 on: February 07, 2018, 05:13:52 PM »
-My favorite thing though, is he knows how to get under the skin of a liberal, and understands how to manipulate them. With every breath he takes, every move he makes, every word he speaks, the liberals and media are on the verge of losing their collective minds. You don’t get him, he continues to beat you at your own game, and it drives liberals nuts. Which in all honesty is probably exactly what he wants, it’s absolutely brilliant. He has the democrats all so busy chasing their own tail you’re missing the big picture.
It is hilarious. And not  limited to dems, he did this throughout the R primary etc. I think it's a natural gift he has, he drives his opponents friggin nuts. He owns them. They get so frustrated they cease thinking clearly and just go into full mental Trump Derangement Syndrome mode. TDS FTW!

I say hilarious, but big-picture it's actually quite sad. A sad commentary on the media's (and millions of citizens) maturity level / rationality. One guy can get in their heads and cause hateful derangement of such magnitude.

Like this lady
http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/columns/Column-I-detest-Trump-but-a-redneck-fixed-my-Prius-with-zip-ties-_165095870
Holding hate so close in her heart, letting it own her and ruin her life, and giving this awful example to her daughter. She pre-judges the Good Samaritan who helped her, realizes how 'outraged' she is all the time, making her a worse person, and blames Trump for her own actions. So immature and irrational.

I find the whole thing pretty bizarre.   How can anyone allow Fake Donald to control their life and happiness to such a degree?

I also find it a little sad when people on the right delight in the anxiety he induces in the democrats.   You guys are all citizens of the same country ffs.   Pull together and do great things again.

It was heartening to witness the heavy falcon launch yesterday & the successful recovery of 2 of the boosters.   This is the sort of thing that will MAGA.   Not internecine warfare in congress.   

While the US dicks around with all this crap, China is rapidly displacing you as the predominant power in the world.
Actually, throughout my life, my two greatest assets have been mental stability and being, like, really smart.

Kris

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #860 on: February 07, 2018, 05:29:32 PM »
-My favorite thing though, is he knows how to get under the skin of a liberal, and understands how to manipulate them. With every breath he takes, every move he makes, every word he speaks, the liberals and media are on the verge of losing their collective minds. You don’t get him, he continues to beat you at your own game, and it drives liberals nuts. Which in all honesty is probably exactly what he wants, it’s absolutely brilliant. He has the democrats all so busy chasing their own tail you’re missing the big picture.
It is hilarious. And not  limited to dems, he did this throughout the R primary etc. I think it's a natural gift he has, he drives his opponents friggin nuts. He owns them. They get so frustrated they cease thinking clearly and just go into full mental Trump Derangement Syndrome mode. TDS FTW!

I say hilarious, but big-picture it's actually quite sad. A sad commentary on the media's (and millions of citizens) maturity level / rationality. One guy can get in their heads and cause hateful derangement of such magnitude.

Like this lady
http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/columns/Column-I-detest-Trump-but-a-redneck-fixed-my-Prius-with-zip-ties-_165095870
Holding hate so close in her heart, letting it own her and ruin her life, and giving this awful example to her daughter. She pre-judges the Good Samaritan who helped her, realizes how 'outraged' she is all the time, making her a worse person, and blames Trump for her own actions. So immature and irrational.

I find the whole thing pretty bizarre.   How can anyone allow Fake Donald to control their life and happiness to such a degree?

I also find it a little sad when people on the right delight in the anxiety he induces in the democrats.   You guys are all citizens of the same country ffs.   Pull together and do great things again.

It was heartening to witness the heavy falcon launch yesterday & the successful recovery of 2 of the boosters.   This is the sort of thing that will MAGA.   Not internecine warfare in congress.   

While the US dicks around with all this crap, China is rapidly displacing you as the predominant power in the world.

Pathetic, isn't it? Pretty much the opposite of MAGA.

It's fairly amazing that Trump's base actually considers itself the true patriots.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

bacchi

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #861 on: February 07, 2018, 05:46:34 PM »
While the US dicks around with all this crap, China is rapidly displacing you as the predominant power in the world.

Eh, it's inevitable. China has its own problems, including party warfare, but it has 4x the population. As long as natural resources hold out, and pollution is mitigated, China will have a far larger GDP.

MasterStache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #862 on: February 08, 2018, 07:17:38 AM »
Nope no regret,

-He has encouraged large corporations, that were leaving in droves, to repatriate money being held off shore and reinvest in new jobs within the united states. Companies investing in jobs in this country is overwhelmingly a good thing. I’m not sure how anyone could put a bad spin on this, but I wont hold my breath…. I’m sure its coming.

I'm not aware of any President that has encouraged offshoring.

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-He passed executive orders designed to eliminate burdensome regulation by requiring that for every new regulation created, two must be eliminated. I see this as a good thing, others will disagree.

This seems very subjective. I mean regulations were put in place to hopefully prevent another financial meltdown. Regulation testing (one of the agencies, "CARB," Trump has threatened), helped exposed the VW "clean diesel" fraud. I guess more smog/pollution is a "good thing?" Thousands of premature deaths every year at the hands of NOx diesel based emissions might say otherwise. I am sure there are regulations that are a bit nonsensical, so why not focus on those instead of painting all regulations with the same "regulations are bad" brush stroke.

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-He has eliminated the ACA individual mandate. Again, I see this as a good thing. I dont approve of the government requiring the purchase of anything, and again I know many people disagree. But you probably wouldn’t like it if the GOP passed a law requiring everyone over that age of 18 to own a fire arm to combat crime now would you? I’m sure we could make a case that it would be best for you, we could dig up studies, show you how it is better for the poor and defenseless, should your neighbors suffer because you cant defend yourself? etc….. Forcing people to purchase things is not a good idea period. (some of this is tongue in check, no need to fly off the rails here)

To be fair that's not what Trump campaigned for. He voted for wiping out the ACA completely and forcing millions back into uninsured territory. Repealing the ACA mandate won't have much affect in terms of coverage as most collectively get insurance through their employer, but the CBO predicts it will cause roughly a 10% increase in premiums for those with coverage. The issue is that the healthcare pool will tilt towards having more sick people vs healthy people. Healthy people tend to choose not to buy insurance when given a choice.

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-Trump getting elected has, wither you like him or not, exposed a huge encroachment on personal liberty in this country through the use of the FISA system. I’m not going to pass judgement on if he is or isn’t guilty, but the fact is the investigation process has exposed an opening for corruption to manipulate the FISA warrant system. We should all be discussing how to correct this to prevent future abuse of the system or possibly eliminating mass collection of intelligence on American soil all together.

Seems rather hypocritical considering Congress just recently passed the FISA Reauthorization Act of 2017 and Trump signed off on this. Both parties are either for or against surveillance depending on who is in power. Trump didn't really expose anything because he is as much for it as anyone (except of course when Dems are in power). Thank Snowden if you want to thank anyone.

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-My favorite thing though, is he knows how to get under the skin of a liberal, and understands how to manipulate them. With every breath he takes, every move he makes, every word he speaks, the liberals and media are on the verge of losing their collective minds. You don’t get him, he continues to beat you at your own game, and it drives liberals nuts. Which in all honesty is probably exactly what he wants, it’s absolutely brilliant. He has the democrats all so busy chasing their own tail you’re missing the big picture.

Not much to say on this except this says nothing about liberals and more about your own attitude towards others. Enjoying the misery of others isn't typically something people will admit to since it points to internal struggles. It's a great example though of just how important partisanship is to some folks in the country. 

Scandium

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #863 on: February 08, 2018, 07:26:52 AM »
I think there is a fundamental difference between liberals and republican principals. Republican seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance. The part that is funny, is republican are so convinced their way of thinking is correct that they believe they can predict the future,


See:
- banning gay marrige
- war in iraq
- trickle down economics
- "tax cuts will pay for themselves"
- "let the states decide!" Oh, but lets ban states from creating municipal broadband
- transgender people have never harmed me, but they scare me, so let's ban them from the military, and let's decide which bathroom they use
- government should decide what people smoke or ingest in their own homes
- video games harm children!

Can you imagine any more oppressive, worse form of government control than deciding which bathroom they use? Or controlling thoughts and what state of mind adults are allowed to have in their own homes, harming no one?? I can't!
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 11:04:27 AM by Scandium »

Just Joe

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #864 on: February 08, 2018, 08:04:57 AM »
Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.

Funny that's what I say about the GOP...

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #865 on: February 08, 2018, 08:10:01 AM »
"He makes liberals angry therefore I love him" seems to sum it up nicely.

A terrible sentiment for a system of government...

Regarding exposure of surveillance being to Trump's credit... Have you heard of Edward Snowden.....?

I think there is a fundamental difference between liberals and republican principals. Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.

Hmm.  What about:
- Using government powers to legislate that women what women can do with their bodies?
- Using government powers to institute tariffs that end up preventing private individuals from selling their product outside of the country?
- Using government powers to prevent the free movement of people across borders?
- Using government powers to keep losing the war on drugs (an attempt to control what people can choose to put in their own bodies)?
- Using government powers to illegally kidnap and torture people while holding them indefinitely without chance of fair trial?

That certainly sounds like a party that wants to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.  Good thing the right doesn't support any of those issues.  :P

MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #866 on: February 08, 2018, 08:30:40 AM »
I find the whole thing pretty bizarre.   How can anyone allow Fake Donald to control their life and happiness to such a degree?

I also find it a little sad when people on the right delight in the anxiety he induces in the democrats.   You guys are all citizens of the same country ffs.   Pull together and do great things again.

Too many profit from keeping us divided.  The media mostly, but also politicians on both sides.

This didn't start with Trump, I know it happened with Obama, and probably Bush before him.  There was a clip from one of the talk shows right after Obama getting elected, saying how they liked to see Republicans squirm when talking about Obama. 

To some this is just payback for Obama.  Which is an emotional response, and not a logical one, but we are mostly emotional beings, so it's understandable, even if it's not respectable.

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #867 on: February 08, 2018, 08:35:09 AM »
While the US dicks around with all this crap, China is rapidly displacing you as the predominant power in the world.

Eh, it's inevitable. China has its own problems, including party warfare, but it has 4x the population. As long as natural resources hold out, and pollution is mitigated, China will have a far larger GDP.

No, it's not inevitable. Because policy matters. Because human capital matters (and the best place to get it is currently the United States). Because capital matters. Because entrepreneurship matters. Yes, the gap between the world and the US is closing. But China has to fix some serious issues--things that will take decades if they're even possible--to overtake us.

MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #868 on: February 08, 2018, 08:43:26 AM »
"He makes liberals angry therefore I love him" seems to sum it up nicely.

A terrible sentiment for a system of government...

Regarding exposure of surveillance being to Trump's credit... Have you heard of Edward Snowden.....?

I think there is a fundamental difference between liberals and republican principals. Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.

Hmm.  What about:
- Using government powers to legislate that women what women can do with their bodies?
- Using government powers to institute tariffs that end up preventing private individuals from selling their product outside of the country?
- Using government powers to prevent the free movement of people across borders?
- Using government powers to keep losing the war on drugs (an attempt to control what people can choose to put in their own bodies)?
- Using government powers to illegally kidnap and torture people while holding them indefinitely without chance of fair trial?

That certainly sounds like a party that wants to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.  Good thing the right doesn't support any of those issues.  :P
To be fair, that's not how the Republicans see those issues.  Everyone of those but the tariffs they (or the portion that supports it) see as saving lives, and I don't know much about the tariff one.  It's hard to say the government shouldn't be trying to save lives.

That's like saying Obamacare is about spreading the wealth and taxing the rich.  When it really is about ensuring everyone has a minimum level of healthcare.  While both are technically true, very few Democrats voted because of the first reason.

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #869 on: February 08, 2018, 08:48:58 AM »
I see Obama as a uniter, not a divider. Now him calling out about police brutality, that IS a problem in this country. Being the first African American president, he was in the unique role of speaking both as someone in a position of power, and as an African American. Don't shoot the messenger if you are uncomfortable with the message. Fix the problem.
 I don't recall Obama ever making comments he was happy or liked seeing Republicans squirm because he was elected. He reached across the aisle and was rebuffed multiple times. Republicans were against Obama, from the start. To the point of saying their agenda, was to make him a one term president. The whole Kenya thing, or Muslim rumors was to delegitimize his presidency. These efforts did not have to do with what Obama said, or his policy positions. It was personal. I still remember seeing the images of Obama effigies hanging from trees, and the many many memes and horrible quotes about him I will not repeat. 

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #870 on: February 08, 2018, 08:50:21 AM »
To be fair, that's not how the Republicans see those issues.  Everyone of those but the tariffs they (or the portion that supports it) see as saving lives... It's hard to say the government shouldn't be trying to save lives.

I'm not sure that "how they see it" really matters when we're talking about restricting people's freedoms.  If you think Republicans are really motivated to save lives, then they would SURELY oppose a health care law that results in 18 million people losing coverage.  Some tiny fraction of those people will literally die without insurance.  In that light, Republicans killed tens of thousands of American citizens, more than died in 9/11.

Or to take a less immediately morbid example, the mayor of NYC tried to ban oversized sodas.  He thought he was saving lives, too.  Not only did Republicans not support the ban, they openly ridiculed it as an example of what they call "the nanny state".  That's what they call everything that Democrats try to do to save lives.  The idea of NOT saving lives is central to their whole political philosophy, so I'm unconvinced by your argument that their proscriptions on drugs/immigration/abortion are motivated by kindness.


TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #871 on: February 08, 2018, 08:52:40 AM »
"He makes liberals angry therefore I love him" seems to sum it up nicely.

A terrible sentiment for a system of government...

Regarding exposure of surveillance being to Trump's credit... Have you heard of Edward Snowden.....?

I think there is a fundamental difference between liberals and republican principals. Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.

Hmm.  What about:
- Using government powers to legislate that women what women can do with their bodies?
- Using government powers to institute tariffs that end up preventing private individuals from selling their product outside of the country?
- Using government powers to prevent the free movement of people across borders?
- Using government powers to keep losing the war on drugs (an attempt to control what people can choose to put in their own bodies)?
- Using government powers to illegally kidnap and torture people while holding them indefinitely without chance of fair trial?

That certainly sounds like a party that wants to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.  Good thing the right doesn't support any of those issues.  :P

whataboutism

Legit points though.  I want a small government party, fiscally responsible (I used to say conservative but the word just doesn't mean what it used to).  I want that government to stay away from social issues entirely.  There is no party like that anymore.

What's crazy to me is that, standing back and looking at it objectively, Trump really hasn't done a whole lot.  He's said some shit, sure.  He's planning some shit, sure.  But he's wildly ineffective and very little has changed in the world as a result of his presidency.

But if you look at the coverage of his presidency, you'd think the world was ending.  Without question, by this point, GWB had made far more impactful changes to the country.

Things that deserved this sort of outcry but because "omg terrorists" were passed, often with bipartisan support.

Things that Obama was supposed to dismantle.  But then when he got there he found he kinda didn't mind how powerful POTUS is, and maybe that stuff isn't bad as long as Democrats control it.

I'm waiting for the Donald to actually DO something anywhere close to the massive power grab of GWB.  It's weird to me how bent out of shape the Democrats are that a loathed and incompetent person is sitting in the seat.  It's the second-best outcome next to your guy sitting in the seat.  Ahh, I get it now.  Make as much noise as you can so you can be in power the next round, make it look as bad as possible, because that's just how we operate now.  It's literally SOP for the progressive party.

There's no making them happy.  Obama was president for 8 years and somehow that made us a more racist country.  Instead of the race card being retired it got a glossy foil overhaul.  Show of hands, how many thought they'd shut the fuck up about racist against black people?  I did.  I remember a thread on this board about that.  Can we move on and be post racial?  Well no, of course not, because nobody puts down a source of power voluntarily.  If you are not a Democrat, you are a racist.  That's how its defined now.  So fuck it.

Now an actual racist bigot is in the WH, but you can't convince a whole slew of people that's true because you've been hurling that accusation across the aisle, non-stop, my entire life.  This is literally the scenario you were warned about.  Repeatedly.  Do. Not. Cry. Wolf.

A sexist asshole is in the WH, but you can't convince a whole slew of people that's true because you've been hurling that accusation across the aisle, non-stop, my entire life.  Do. Not. Cry. Wolf.

Would you please issue an apology to every person whose policies you disagreed with for specific, self-serving reasons, that instead of arguing on merits, you sought to discredit, via slanderous and libelous character assaults?  Your vested interest masquerading as a just cause has led us directly to this moment.  And the absolute refusal to take any responsibility for where we are is staggering in its uniformity.  Both sides blame the other for where we are, and both sides were willing participants for the entire ride.  That first time you voted, not your conscience but the lesser of two evils, that first time you swallowed misgivings and voted party line, that's where this started.

You didn't want to play fair for at least the last two decades, and like every other team that cheated to win and then lost anyway, you refuse to disband the team.  And you know what, I get it, you'll probably win next time and that's all that matters right?  Nevermind that it'll cycle back around again, because you're both terrible in different and unique ways.

Both parties are garbage.  Both parties are not interested in representing you.  Stop giving them money.  Stop voting for their candidates.  All the money from all the "evil racists" and "greedy corporations" will amount to nothing if nobody can get elected with a major party affiliation.

"That's just crazy talk."

Yea...
Notice is turned in! 35 days until FIRE!  I am excited and at the same time terrified!
Don't burn your bridges folks. 4 days prior to the date lost my home and rental property to Hurricane Harvey.  Still workin' Never quittin'

partgypsy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #872 on: February 08, 2018, 08:57:59 AM »
"He makes liberals angry therefore I love him" seems to sum it up nicely.

A terrible sentiment for a system of government...

Regarding exposure of surveillance being to Trump's credit... Have you heard of Edward Snowden.....?

I think there is a fundamental difference between liberals and republican principals. Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.

Hmm.  What about:
- Using government powers to legislate that women what women can do with their bodies?
- Using government powers to institute tariffs that end up preventing private individuals from selling their product outside of the country?
- Using government powers to prevent the free movement of people across borders?
- Using government powers to keep losing the war on drugs (an attempt to control what people can choose to put in their own bodies)?
- Using government powers to illegally kidnap and torture people while holding them indefinitely without chance of fair trial?

That certainly sounds like a party that wants to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.  Good thing the right doesn't support any of those issues.  :P
To be fair, that's not how the Republicans see those issues.  Everyone of those but the tariffs they (or the portion that supports it) see as saving lives, and I don't know much about the tariff one.  It's hard to say the government shouldn't be trying to save lives.

That's like saying Obamacare is about spreading the wealth and taxing the rich.  When it really is about ensuring everyone has a minimum level of healthcare.  While both are technically true, very few Democrats voted because of the first reason.

Please please do not conflate being anti-abortion with savings lives. The hypocrisy makes me throw up a little in my mouth. It's about controlling women's bodies. The history of the pro-life movement and it's politicalization, is actually very interesting reading. Life beginning at conception is not in Biblical scripture and not something endorsed by the Abrahamic religions, except when a certain Catholic Bishop decreed it, and it was only in the Catholic faith that was endorsed. If you are a Catholic, you can believe that, and follow your beliefs. But don't impose your religious beliefs on everyone else as we have separation of church and state.

MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #873 on: February 08, 2018, 09:00:34 AM »
To be fair, that's not how the Republicans see those issues.  Everyone of those but the tariffs they (or the portion that supports it) see as saving lives... It's hard to say the government shouldn't be trying to save lives.

I'm not sure that "how they see it" really matters when we're talking about restricting people's freedoms.  If you think Republicans are really motivated to save lives, then they would SURELY oppose a health care law that results in 18 million people losing coverage.  Some tiny fraction of those people will literally die without insurance.  In that light, Republicans killed tens of thousands of American citizens, more than died in 9/11.

Or to take a less immediately morbid example, the mayor of NYC tried to ban oversized sodas.  He thought he was saving lives, too.  Not only did Republicans not support the ban, they openly ridiculed it as an example of what they call "the nanny state".  That's what they call everything that Democrats try to do to save lives.  The idea of NOT saving lives is central to their whole political philosophy, so I'm unconvinced by your argument that their proscriptions on drugs/immigration/abortion are motivated by kindness.
I didn't mean to imply Republicans were only motivated by kindness.  We are complex beings, we have multiple goals and multiple costs we are willing to pay for them.  I was trying to point out that we are judging each other not on our best intentions, but on the worst possible outcome. 

MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #874 on: February 08, 2018, 09:02:20 AM »
"He makes liberals angry therefore I love him" seems to sum it up nicely.

A terrible sentiment for a system of government...

Regarding exposure of surveillance being to Trump's credit... Have you heard of Edward Snowden.....?

I think there is a fundamental difference between liberals and republican principals. Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.

Hmm.  What about:
- Using government powers to legislate that women what women can do with their bodies?
- Using government powers to institute tariffs that end up preventing private individuals from selling their product outside of the country?
- Using government powers to prevent the free movement of people across borders?
- Using government powers to keep losing the war on drugs (an attempt to control what people can choose to put in their own bodies)?
- Using government powers to illegally kidnap and torture people while holding them indefinitely without chance of fair trial?

That certainly sounds like a party that wants to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.  Good thing the right doesn't support any of those issues.  :P
To be fair, that's not how the Republicans see those issues.  Everyone of those but the tariffs they (or the portion that supports it) see as saving lives, and I don't know much about the tariff one.  It's hard to say the government shouldn't be trying to save lives.

That's like saying Obamacare is about spreading the wealth and taxing the rich.  When it really is about ensuring everyone has a minimum level of healthcare.  While both are technically true, very few Democrats voted because of the first reason.

Please please do not conflate being anti-abortion with savings lives. The hypocrisy makes me throw up a little in my mouth. It's about controlling women's bodies. The history of the pro-life movement and it's politicalization, is actually very interesting reading. Life beginning at conception is not in Biblical scripture and not something endorsed by the Abrahamic religions, except when a certain Catholic Bishop decreed it, and it was only in the Catholic faith that was endorsed. If you are a Catholic, you can believe that, and follow your beliefs. But don't impose your religious beliefs on everyone else as we have separation of church and state.
If you define life begins with conception, anti-abortion by definition saves lives.  That is my only point.

asiljoy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #875 on: February 08, 2018, 09:10:20 AM »
"He makes liberals angry therefore I love him" seems to sum it up nicely.

A terrible sentiment for a system of government...

Regarding exposure of surveillance being to Trump's credit... Have you heard of Edward Snowden.....?

I think there is a fundamental difference between liberals and republican principals. Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.

Hmm.  What about:
- Using government powers to legislate that women what women can do with their bodies?
- Using government powers to institute tariffs that end up preventing private individuals from selling their product outside of the country?
- Using government powers to prevent the free movement of people across borders?
- Using government powers to keep losing the war on drugs (an attempt to control what people can choose to put in their own bodies)?
- Using government powers to illegally kidnap and torture people while holding them indefinitely without chance of fair trial?

That certainly sounds like a party that wants to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.  Good thing the right doesn't support any of those issues.  :P
To be fair, that's not how the Republicans see those issues.  Everyone of those but the tariffs they (or the portion that supports it) see as saving lives, and I don't know much about the tariff one.  It's hard to say the government shouldn't be trying to save lives.

That's like saying Obamacare is about spreading the wealth and taxing the rich.  When it really is about ensuring everyone has a minimum level of healthcare.  While both are technically true, very few Democrats voted because of the first reason.

Please please do not conflate being anti-abortion with savings lives. The hypocrisy makes me throw up a little in my mouth. It's about controlling women's bodies. The history of the pro-life movement and it's politicalization, is actually very interesting reading. Life beginning at conception is not in Biblical scripture and not something endorsed by the Abrahamic religions, except when a certain Catholic Bishop decreed it, and it was only in the Catholic faith that was endorsed. If you are a Catholic, you can believe that, and follow your beliefs. But don't impose your religious beliefs on everyone else as we have separation of church and state.
If you define life begins with conception, anti-abortion by definition saves lives.  That is my only point.
Except that isn't always the case. Not allowing abortion has killed women, costing lives of actual humans. Blanket policies don't work here.

Milizard

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #876 on: February 08, 2018, 09:24:12 AM »
"He makes liberals angry therefore I love him" seems to sum it up nicely.

A terrible sentiment for a system of government...

Regarding exposure of surveillance being to Trump's credit... Have you heard of Edward Snowden.....?

I think there is a fundamental difference between liberals and republican principals. Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.

Hmm.  What about:
- Using government powers to legislate that women what women can do with their bodies?
- Using government powers to institute tariffs that end up preventing private individuals from selling their product outside of the country?
- Using government powers to prevent the free movement of people across borders?
- Using government powers to keep losing the war on drugs (an attempt to control what people can choose to put in their own bodies)?
- Using government powers to illegally kidnap and torture people while holding them indefinitely without chance of fair trial?

That certainly sounds like a party that wants to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.  Good thing the right doesn't support any of those issues.  :P
To be fair, that's not how the Republicans see those issues.  Everyone of those but the tariffs they (or the portion that supports it) see as saving lives, and I don't know much about the tariff one.  It's hard to say the government shouldn't be trying to save lives.

That's like saying Obamacare is about spreading the wealth and taxing the rich.  When it really is about ensuring everyone has a minimum level of healthcare.  While both are technically true, very few Democrats voted because of the first reason.
How does not allowing free movement across borders save lives?  I am not personally in support of completely open borders, but there are scores of refugees/immigrants literally fleeing for their lives.

the_gastropod

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #877 on: February 08, 2018, 09:37:04 AM »
"He makes liberals angry therefore I love him" seems to sum it up nicely.

A terrible sentiment for a system of government...

Regarding exposure of surveillance being to Trump's credit... Have you heard of Edward Snowden.....?

I think there is a fundamental difference between liberals and republican principals. Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.

Hmm.  What about:
- Using government powers to legislate that women what women can do with their bodies?
- Using government powers to institute tariffs that end up preventing private individuals from selling their product outside of the country?
- Using government powers to prevent the free movement of people across borders?
- Using government powers to keep losing the war on drugs (an attempt to control what people can choose to put in their own bodies)?
- Using government powers to illegally kidnap and torture people while holding them indefinitely without chance of fair trial?

That certainly sounds like a party that wants to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.  Good thing the right doesn't support any of those issues.  :P

whataboutism

While I'm a fan of calling out whataboutism, this is not, by any definition I'm familiar with, whataboutism. GuitarStv is refuting Greenback's claim that there's a difference between liberals and conservatives, in that ONLY liberals "want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance". GuitarStv, correctly, cites examples of conservatives doing this. Whatbaoutism is virtually anytime Obama or Hillary are brought up when a criticism of Trump arises. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Quote
Legit points though.  I want a small government party, fiscally responsible (I used to say conservative but the word just doesn't mean what it used to).  I want that government to stay away from social issues entirely.  There is no party like that anymore.
And there never has been (not in the U.S. anyway). Anytime there are power discrepancies between groups of people, there needs to be a protector of those being exploited.

Quote
What's crazy to me is that, standing back and looking at it objectively, Trump really hasn't done a whole lot.  He's said some shit, sure.  He's planning some shit, sure.  But he's wildly ineffective and very little has changed in the world as a result of his presidency.

But if you look at the coverage of his presidency, you'd think the world was ending.  Without question, by this point, GWB had made far more impactful changes to the country.

Trump is pushing the boundaries of what our democracy can tolerate, and the Republicans are largely on board. It's worrying. The release of the Nunes memo, for example, is *absolutely* an attempt to discredit our highest law enforcement institutions. Law enforcement institutions investigating him for potentially treasonous activity. This is not normal. This is deserving of worry.

The man seems compelled to lie about everything. After the state of the union, he bragged that it was the most viewed state of the union ever. It didn't crack the top 5 (not that anyone would care, anyways). He is not well. The emperor has no clothes, and the Republican party is complicit in pretending otherwise because he's currently a useful idiot for them.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 09:50:38 AM by the_gastropod »

zoltani

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #878 on: February 08, 2018, 09:46:54 AM »
Kindly let me help you from drowing said the monkey as he put the fish safely up the tree.

“The hardest thing in the world is to simplify your life. It’s so easy to make it complex. What’s important is leading an examined life.”

Yvon Chouinard

zoltani

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #879 on: February 08, 2018, 10:07:13 AM »
Archimedes said, "Give me a fulcrum and I will move the Earth"; but there isn't one. It is like betting on the future of the human race — I might wish to lay a bet that the human race would destroy itself by the year 2000, but there is nowhere to place the bet. On the contrary, I am involved in the world and must try to see that it does not blow itself to pieces. I once had a terrible argument with Margaret Mead. She was holding forth one evening on the absolute horror of the atomic bomb, and how everybody should spring into action and abolish it, but she was getting so furious about it that I said to her: "You scare me because I think you are the kind of person who will push the button in order to get rid of the other people who were going to push it first." So she told me that I had no love for my future generations, that I had no responsibility for my children, and that I was a phony swami who believed in retreating from facts. But I maintained my position. As Robert Oppenheimer said a short while before he died, "It is perfectly obvious that the whole world is going to hell. The only possible chance that it might not is that we do not attempt to prevent it from doing so." You see, many of the troubles going on in the world right now are being supervised by people with very good intentions whose attempts are to keep things in order, to clean things up, to forbid this, and to prevent that. The more we try to put everything to rights, the more we make fantastic messes. Maybe that is the way it has got to be. Maybe I should not say anything at all about the folly of trying to put things to right but simply, on the principle of Blake, let the fool persist in his folly so that he will become wise.

    Play to Live : Lectures of Alan Watts
“The hardest thing in the world is to simplify your life. It’s so easy to make it complex. What’s important is leading an examined life.”

Yvon Chouinard

Samuel

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #880 on: February 08, 2018, 10:14:11 AM »
-My favorite thing though, is he knows how to get under the skin of a liberal, and understands how to manipulate them. With every breath he takes, every move he makes, every word he speaks, the liberals and media are on the verge of losing their collective minds. You don’t get him, he continues to beat you at your own game, and it drives liberals nuts. Which in all honesty is probably exactly what he wants, it’s absolutely brilliant. He has the democrats all so busy chasing their own tail you’re missing the big picture.
It is hilarious. And not  limited to dems, he did this throughout the R primary etc. I think it's a natural gift he has, he drives his opponents friggin nuts. He owns them. They get so frustrated they cease thinking clearly and just go into full mental Trump Derangement Syndrome mode. TDS FTW!

I say hilarious, but big-picture it's actually quite sad. A sad commentary on the media's (and millions of citizens) maturity level / rationality. One guy can get in their heads and cause hateful derangement of such magnitude.

Like this lady
http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/columns/Column-I-detest-Trump-but-a-redneck-fixed-my-Prius-with-zip-ties-_165095870
Holding hate so close in her heart, letting it own her and ruin her life, and giving this awful example to her daughter. She pre-judges the Good Samaritan who helped her, realizes how 'outraged' she is all the time, making her a worse person, and blames Trump for her own actions. So immature and irrational.

What I think is quite sad is that our president is a man whose primary political skill is inciting glee in supporters by provoking emotional overreactions and tactical disarray in opponents through the unrelenting flinging of of mean spirited attacks and blatant lies. Yes he's great at it but it's not leadership. It's a pathetic parody of leadership that is not making America great in any way. It's simply trashing civil society for the very short term gratifications of vanity and greed. People who celebrate that make me sad, but those who know better but stand silent as part of a cynical bargain to get tax cuts or pro life judges are, in my opinion at least, the most pathetic.

I actually agree that people have a responsibility to learn to protect themselves from this emotional and intellectual manipulation and am super frustrated by how long it is taking for people to catch on to and start ignoring this dumb distraction game. But I find it awfully weird for Trump supporters to simultaneously celebrate President Trump's obvious talents at trolling and mock their countrymen/women for allowing their passions to be manipulated by a gifted manipulator. Especially when they refuse to see the game is being played on them too, just not as heavy-handedly.

I'm procrastinating at work so I actually read that article. I found it hopeful. It's another person recognizing how we're all being played. My biggest hope is that enough people learn to put on goggles and forthrightly stride through the poop storm with a clear focus on the rot it's only providing cover for.

As I drove home, I felt the full extent to which Trump has actually diminished my own desire to be kind. He is keeping me so outraged that I hold ill will toward others on a daily basis. Trump is not just ruining our nation, he is ruining me. By the end of the drive, I felt heartbroken.

zoltani

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #881 on: February 08, 2018, 10:36:41 AM »
If people are kept in a constant state of mental confusion, cognitive dissonance, then they have trouble thinking for themselves and drawing their own conclusions. I think you're right that the manipulation taking place is fascinating and quite terrifying. I believe this is very deliberate and happens on both sides. For example Obama won a Nobel peace prize but also the first president to drone strike an American on foreign soil with no trial. That's certainly a mind Fuck.
“The hardest thing in the world is to simplify your life. It’s so easy to make it complex. What’s important is leading an examined life.”

Yvon Chouinard

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #882 on: February 08, 2018, 10:44:27 AM »
If people are kept in a constant state of mental confusion, cognitive dissonance, then they have trouble thinking for themselves and drawing their own conclusions. I think you're right that the manipulation taking place is fascinating and quite terrifying. I believe this is very deliberate and happens on both sides. For example Obama won a Nobel peace prize but also the first president to drone strike an American on foreign soil with no trial. That's certainly a mind Fuck.

Obama winning the nobel peace prize was straight up stupid.  I don't know what they were thinking.

Greenback Reproduction Specialist

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #883 on: February 08, 2018, 11:03:58 AM »
...I had a well thought out lengthy response that was truly ground breaking, it would have made everyone rethink everything they thought they knew and consider their position on deep subjects. But a slip of the finger caused it to be lost.... Maybe later I will try to recreate it in all its glory.

For now this amazing quote will have to do instead.

Obama winning the nobel peace prize was straight up stupid.  I don't know what they were thinking.
FIRE.... Remember, it's closer than it feels.


NoStacheOhio

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #884 on: February 08, 2018, 11:13:48 AM »
...I had a well thought out lengthy response that was truly ground breaking, it would have made everyone rethink everything they thought they knew and consider their position on deep subjects. But a slip of the finger caused it to be lost.... Maybe later I will try to recreate it in all its glory.

For now this amazing quote will have to do instead.

Obama winning the nobel peace prize was straight up stupid.  I don't know what they were thinking.

Is that really so amazing? I don't remember seeing much crowing on the left about Obama's Nobel. I remember being perplexed when it happened, and haven't thought much about it since then.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #885 on: February 08, 2018, 11:18:19 AM »
...I had a well thought out lengthy response that was truly ground breaking, it would have made everyone rethink everything they thought they knew and consider their position on deep subjects. But a slip of the finger caused it to be lost.... Maybe later I will try to recreate it in all its glory.

For now this amazing quote will have to do instead.

Obama winning the nobel peace prize was straight up stupid.  I don't know what they were thinking.

To be fair to Obama . . . even he seemed to kinda think it was stupid.  From his acceptance speech:

"I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge the considerable controversy that your generous decision has generated. In part, this is because I am at the beginning, and not the end, of my labors ... my accomplishments are slight. And then there are the men and women around the world who have been jailed and beaten in the pursuit of justice; those who toil in humanitarian organizations to relieve suffering; the unrecognized millions whose quiet acts of courage and compassion inspire even the most hardened cynics. I cannot argue with those who find these men and women – some known, some obscure to all but those they help – to be far more deserving of this honor than I."

partgypsy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #886 on: February 08, 2018, 11:25:29 AM »
If that is the case then it should have been an open and shut case of discrimination and would never have made it to the supreme court. Should be an easy one for the high court to decide then.

It was pretty open and shut from the perspective of the Colorado judge. I guess we'll find out.

Quote
Link

Phillips admitted he had turned away other same-sex couples as a matter of policy. The CCRD’s decision noted evidence in the record that Phillips had expressed willingness to take a cake order for the “marriage” of two dogs, but not for the commitment ceremony of two women, and that he would not make a cake for a same-sex couple’s wedding celebration “just as he would not be willing to make a pedophile cake.”

“Masterpiece Cakeshop has willfully and repeatedly considered itself above the law when it comes to discriminating against customers, and the state has rightly determined otherwise,” said Sara R. Neel, staff attorney with the ACLU of Colorado. “It’s important for all Coloradans to be treated fairly by every business that is open to the public – that’s good for business and good for the community.”

This is the world we live in.

yes, those pedophile cakes are in high demand.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #887 on: February 08, 2018, 11:26:08 AM »

While I'm a fan of calling out whataboutism, this is not, by any definition I'm familiar with, whataboutism. GuitarStv is refuting Greenback's claim that there's a difference between liberals and conservatives, in that ONLY liberals "want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance". GuitarStv, correctly, cites examples of conservatives doing this. Whatbaoutism is virtually anytime Obama or Hillary are brought up when a criticism of Trump arises. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism


Actually, whataboutism is bringing up an irrelevant alternative that is also bad to justify your own badness.  There's an inherent hypocrisy in calling it out, which your comment perfectly illustrates.  There's either a problem with Trump, independent of other considerations, or there is not.  There's either a problem with HRC, independent of other considerations, or there is not.  Whataboutism is used by both sides to deflect attention from their own shortcomings.  I may not be good, but nobody is good, so what's your problem?

It is fundamental to modern politics.  I don't know who started it, but as some examples:

Bush:  But what about the terrorists.
Obama: But what about Bush.
HRC: But what about Trump.
Sanders: But what about HRC.
Trump: But what about HRC.
You: But what about TOYM.

Etc.

Quote
Trump is pushing the boundaries of what our democracy can tolerate, and the Republicans are largely on board. It's worrying. The release of the Nunes memo, for example, is *absolutely* an attempt to discredit our highest law enforcement institutions. Law enforcement institutions investigating him for potentially treasonous activity. This is not normal. This is deserving of worry.

The man seems compelled to lie about everything. After the state of the union, he bragged that it was the most viewed state of the union ever. It didn't crack the top 5 (not that anyone would care, anyways). He is not well. The emperor has no clothes, and the Republican party is complicit in pretending otherwise because he's currently a useful idiot for them.

I don't really know what to make of this.  It doesn't reflect the reality I'm currently occupying, I'm not sure which planet you're on.  Over here, nobody is under the impression Trump has any idea what's going on.  The most shocking thing about the FBI stuff is that suddenly Democrats are coming to the defense of the FBI.  Talk about your hypocritical politically motivated flips.  Remember, the FBI kills/incarcerates black people.  No, I get it, they're going after an enemy of yours so its OK now.

Trump is a compulsive liar!  Spread the news!  Yes, he is a politician now.  What you are seeing is not something new, what you are seeing is incompetence.  Your particular brand of politician hasn't been as lazy as Trump, they took the time to craft more self-serving less-obvious lies.  Trump lies for seemingly no reason at all, it isn't malicious, he just doesn't know the truth.  That concerns me a whole lot less than the available alternatives.

That last bit is at the core of it.  He's an idiot.  There's either a concerted effort to undermine democracy and fundamentally change the country, or he's an idiot.  There isn't both, there's no puppet master, this is a shit-show from day one.  It was absolutely preventable and we should all be outraged, but you're directing your anger at all the wrong people and your plans to fix it/prevent it happening again are not going to work.
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Samuel

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #888 on: February 08, 2018, 11:26:56 AM »
If people are kept in a constant state of mental confusion, cognitive dissonance, then they have trouble thinking for themselves and drawing their own conclusions. I think you're right that the manipulation taking place is fascinating and quite terrifying. I believe this is very deliberate and happens on both sides. For example Obama won a Nobel peace prize but also the first president to drone strike an American on foreign soil with no trial. That's certainly a mind Fuck.

Obama winning the nobel peace prize was straight up stupid.  I don't know what they were thinking.

They were patting America on the back for so crisply reversing course from the President Bush era. President Obama clearly found it both wildly premature and politically inconvenient, but that's an award you just can't decline.

"I do not view it as a recognition of my own accomplishments but rather an affirmation of American leadership on behalf of aspirations held by people in all nations."

He also clearly saw the contradictions: "perhaps the most profound issue surrounding my receipt of this prize is the fact that I am the Commander-in-Chief of the military of a nation in the midst of two wars."


MasterStache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #889 on: February 08, 2018, 11:30:17 AM »
If people are kept in a constant state of mental confusion, cognitive dissonance, then they have trouble thinking for themselves and drawing their own conclusions. I think you're right that the manipulation taking place is fascinating and quite terrifying. I believe this is very deliberate and happens on both sides. For example Obama won a Nobel peace prize but also the first president to drone strike an American on foreign soil with no trial. That's certainly a mind Fuck.

Indeed it is. But he was awarded the prize in 2009 and the missile strike came later in 2011. And to be even more fair, many of Obama's supporters did not agree with awarding him the prize. Hell I didn't even know he won it, or just forgot.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 11:45:29 AM by MasterStache »

zoltani

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #890 on: February 08, 2018, 11:34:47 AM »
Perhaps you need a different example from the left. Gender is a social construct, if people want to switch genders we should support them. We are OK with giving kids puberty blockers until they can decide if they want to go through surgery. I'm not sure which is a construct now. However, I do see the hypocrisy.
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Dabnasty

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #891 on: February 08, 2018, 11:34:51 AM »
...I had a well thought out lengthy response that was truly ground breaking, it would have made everyone rethink everything they thought they knew and consider their position on deep subjects. But a slip of the finger caused it to be lost.... Maybe later I will try to recreate it in all its glory.

For now this amazing quote will have to do instead.

Obama winning the nobel peace prize was straight up stupid.  I don't know what they were thinking.

To be fair to Obama . . . even he seemed to kinda think it was stupid.  From his acceptance speech:

"I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge the considerable controversy that your generous decision has generated. In part, this is because I am at the beginning, and not the end, of my labors ... my accomplishments are slight. And then there are the men and women around the world who have been jailed and beaten in the pursuit of justice; those who toil in humanitarian organizations to relieve suffering; the unrecognized millions whose quiet acts of courage and compassion inspire even the most hardened cynics. I cannot argue with those who find these men and women – some known, some obscure to all but those they help – to be far more deserving of this honor than I."

I wonder what Trump would have said if he was given the Nobel peace prize? I tried reading this in Trump's voice and I laughed out loud when I got to "my accomplishments are slight".

Greenback Reproduction Specialist

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #892 on: February 08, 2018, 11:38:23 AM »
...I had a well thought out lengthy response that was truly ground breaking, it would have made everyone rethink everything they thought they knew and consider their position on deep subjects. But a slip of the finger caused it to be lost.... Maybe later I will try to recreate it in all its glory.

For now this amazing quote will have to do instead.

Obama winning the nobel peace prize was straight up stupid.  I don't know what they were thinking.

To be fair to Obama . . . even he seemed to kinda think it was stupid.  From his acceptance speech:

"I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge the considerable controversy that your generous decision has generated. In part, this is because I am at the beginning, and not the end, of my labors ... my accomplishments are slight. And then there are the men and women around the world who have been jailed and beaten in the pursuit of justice; those who toil in humanitarian organizations to relieve suffering; the unrecognized millions whose quiet acts of courage and compassion inspire even the most hardened cynics. I cannot argue with those who find these men and women – some known, some obscure to all but those they help – to be far more deserving of this honor than I."

Yes, it is more of an illustration of the blinding infatuation the media and global elite had for him. It was like he was surrounded by a bunch of "Yes men".
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GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #893 on: February 08, 2018, 11:39:03 AM »
...I had a well thought out lengthy response that was truly ground breaking, it would have made everyone rethink everything they thought they knew and consider their position on deep subjects. But a slip of the finger caused it to be lost.... Maybe later I will try to recreate it in all its glory.

For now this amazing quote will have to do instead.

Obama winning the nobel peace prize was straight up stupid.  I don't know what they were thinking.

To be fair to Obama . . . even he seemed to kinda think it was stupid.  From his acceptance speech:

"I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge the considerable controversy that your generous decision has generated. In part, this is because I am at the beginning, and not the end, of my labors ... my accomplishments are slight. And then there are the men and women around the world who have been jailed and beaten in the pursuit of justice; those who toil in humanitarian organizations to relieve suffering; the unrecognized millions whose quiet acts of courage and compassion inspire even the most hardened cynics. I cannot argue with those who find these men and women – some known, some obscure to all but those they help – to be far more deserving of this honor than I."

I wonder what Trump would have said if he was given the Nobel peace prize? I tried reading this in Trump's voice and I laughed out loud when I got to "my accomplishments are slight".

It's hard to get past acknowledge in Trumps voice . . . that is a three syllable word.

Dabnasty

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #894 on: February 08, 2018, 11:45:46 AM »

While I'm a fan of calling out whataboutism, this is not, by any definition I'm familiar with, whataboutism. GuitarStv is refuting Greenback's claim that there's a difference between liberals and conservatives, in that ONLY liberals "want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance". GuitarStv, correctly, cites examples of conservatives doing this. Whatbaoutism is virtually anytime Obama or Hillary are brought up when a criticism of Trump arises. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism


Actually, whataboutism is bringing up an irrelevant alternative that is also bad to justify your own badness.  There's an inherent hypocrisy in calling it out, which your comment perfectly illustrates.  There's either a problem with Trump, independent of other considerations, or there is not.  There's either a problem with HRC, independent of other considerations, or there is not.  Whataboutism is used by both sides to deflect attention from their own shortcomings.  I may not be good, but nobody is good, so what's your problem?

It is fundamental to modern politics.  I don't know who started it, but as some examples:

Bush:  But what about the terrorists.
Obama: But what about Bush.
HRC: But what about Trump.
Sanders: But what about HRC.
Trump: But what about HRC.
You: But what about TOYM.

Etc.


You left out a critical part of this conversation.


I think there is a fundamental difference between liberals and republican principals. Liberals seem to want to force their view of the world on others and use government as a means to accomplish compliance.

From Wikipedia:
Quote
Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument

the gastropod did in fact directly refute GRS's arguement by contending that republican principles do not have this fundamental difference that GRS was claiming they did.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 11:48:41 AM by Dabnasty »

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #895 on: February 08, 2018, 11:47:41 AM »
If that is the case then it should have been an open and shut case of discrimination and would never have made it to the supreme court. Should be an easy one for the high court to decide then.

It was pretty open and shut from the perspective of the Colorado judge. I guess we'll find out.

Quote
Link

Phillips admitted he had turned away other same-sex couples as a matter of policy. The CCRD’s decision noted evidence in the record that Phillips had expressed willingness to take a cake order for the “marriage” of two dogs, but not for the commitment ceremony of two women, and that he would not make a cake for a same-sex couple’s wedding celebration “just as he would not be willing to make a pedophile cake.”

“Masterpiece Cakeshop has willfully and repeatedly considered itself above the law when it comes to discriminating against customers, and the state has rightly determined otherwise,” said Sara R. Neel, staff attorney with the ACLU of Colorado. “It’s important for all Coloradans to be treated fairly by every business that is open to the public – that’s good for business and good for the community.”

This is the world we live in.

yes, those pedophile cakes are in high demand.

I would eat a cake made out of pedophiles.  As long as it had bbq sauce.

I can't support using violence to make someone bake a cake.  It's stupid.  All other aspects of this are irrelevant.  The state cannot compel a citizen to bake a cake.  There's just no basis for it.  cake is not important enough.  I don't really know how to explain this to anyone that doesn't understand it.  All the complex arguments for the legal basis are so much bullshit.  There's no good reason to compel the creation of cake.  Cake by itself guarantees someone will create it.  All it had to be was delicious.

Or pretty, I guess some people like it because it's pretty.

I don't particularly like cake if I'm honest, I prefer a good brownie.  But we're talking about cake here for some reason.

I don't know where you draw this particular line, but it isn't at the cake level.  At some point, yes, a homosexual should not be able to be denied service based on that.  At the government cake shop sure, because the government shouldn't discriminate, cake for everyone sure.  At the corporate cake store...eh it's hard for a corporation to survive the market with policies like that so I can see them choosing not to, and then I can make a case for dismissing an employee for failing to make the cake.  That's fine.

But I'm certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, it is wrong to use violence to compel the baking of cakes, and that's what happens if you say the owner/operator of a cake shop can't refuse a commission, and his reason why doesn't matter.

Maybe if there was a monopoly in charge of all baked goods, and this was the sole source, then maybe you could identify actual harm that was done.  But you can't.

We can call the baker misguided, homophobic, or stupid.  But there's no law that says you have to bake a cake, and if there is a law that says that we should change it, because it's not right to compel the baking of cakes.
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GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #896 on: February 08, 2018, 12:01:02 PM »
I can't support using violence to make someone bake a cake.  It's stupid.

Agreed.  That would be.  It's a good thing that the gay couple didn't do this, or they would likely be heading to prison.  If the government was doing this, it would be pretty oppressive.  Fortunately, that's not the case either!



The state cannot compel a citizen to bake a cake.

We can call the baker misguided, homophobic, or stupid.  But there's no law that says you have to bake a cake, and if there is a law that says that we should change it, because it's not right to compel the baking of cakes.

Nobody's compelling anyone to bake a cake.  There's no law saying that a cake has to be baked.  There is a law requiring that you treat other citizens equally while you're operating a business under the permission of the government.  If the baker doesn't like the rules, he's free to stop operating his business.  There's no violence at all, the only person compelling the baker to keep baking is himself.

shenlong55

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #897 on: February 08, 2018, 12:02:24 PM »
If that is the case then it should have been an open and shut case of discrimination and would never have made it to the supreme court. Should be an easy one for the high court to decide then.

It was pretty open and shut from the perspective of the Colorado judge. I guess we'll find out.

Quote
Link

Phillips admitted he had turned away other same-sex couples as a matter of policy. The CCRD’s decision noted evidence in the record that Phillips had expressed willingness to take a cake order for the “marriage” of two dogs, but not for the commitment ceremony of two women, and that he would not make a cake for a same-sex couple’s wedding celebration “just as he would not be willing to make a pedophile cake.”

“Masterpiece Cakeshop has willfully and repeatedly considered itself above the law when it comes to discriminating against customers, and the state has rightly determined otherwise,” said Sara R. Neel, staff attorney with the ACLU of Colorado. “It’s important for all Coloradans to be treated fairly by every business that is open to the public – that’s good for business and good for the community.”

This is the world we live in.

yes, those pedophile cakes are in high demand.

I would eat a cake made out of pedophiles.  As long as it had bbq sauce.

I can't support using violence to make someone bake a cake.  It's stupid.  All other aspects of this are irrelevant.  The state cannot compel a citizen to bake a cake.  There's just no basis for it.  cake is not important enough.  I don't really know how to explain this to anyone that doesn't understand it.  All the complex arguments for the legal basis are so much bullshit.  There's no good reason to compel the creation of cake.  Cake by itself guarantees someone will create it.  All it had to be was delicious.

Or pretty, I guess some people like it because it's pretty.

I don't particularly like cake if I'm honest, I prefer a good brownie.  But we're talking about cake here for some reason.

I don't know where you draw this particular line, but it isn't at the cake level.  At some point, yes, a homosexual should not be able to be denied service based on that.  At the government cake shop sure, because the government shouldn't discriminate, cake for everyone sure.  At the corporate cake store...eh it's hard for a corporation to survive the market with policies like that so I can see them choosing not to, and then I can make a case for dismissing an employee for failing to make the cake.  That's fine.

But I'm certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, it is wrong to use violence to compel the baking of cakes, and that's what happens if you say the owner/operator of a cake shop can't refuse a commission, and his reason why doesn't matter.

Maybe if there was a monopoly in charge of all baked goods, and this was the sole source, then maybe you could identify actual harm that was done.  But you can't.

We can call the baker misguided, homophobic, or stupid.  But there's no law that says you have to bake a cake, and if there is a law that says that we should change it, because it's not right to compel the baking of cakes.

So, I'm kind of on the fence about this topic and I've been meaning to ask a question of someone that takes your position.  Would it be okay, in your view, for me to start a business and then deny my services to someone because of their religion?  How about because of their age?  Or race/sex?  How far does this freedom of association go?  I just feel like if the guy who wouldn't bake a cake for a gay couple walked into my store and was turned away due to his religion he would probably not be okay with it.

PoutineLover

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #898 on: February 08, 2018, 12:03:41 PM »
If that is the case then it should have been an open and shut case of discrimination and would never have made it to the supreme court. Should be an easy one for the high court to decide then.

It was pretty open and shut from the perspective of the Colorado judge. I guess we'll find out.

Quote
Link

Phillips admitted he had turned away other same-sex couples as a matter of policy. The CCRD’s decision noted evidence in the record that Phillips had expressed willingness to take a cake order for the “marriage” of two dogs, but not for the commitment ceremony of two women, and that he would not make a cake for a same-sex couple’s wedding celebration “just as he would not be willing to make a pedophile cake.”

“Masterpiece Cakeshop has willfully and repeatedly considered itself above the law when it comes to discriminating against customers, and the state has rightly determined otherwise,” said Sara R. Neel, staff attorney with the ACLU of Colorado. “It’s important for all Coloradans to be treated fairly by every business that is open to the public – that’s good for business and good for the community.”

This is the world we live in.

yes, those pedophile cakes are in high demand.

I would eat a cake made out of pedophiles.  As long as it had bbq sauce.

I can't support using violence to make someone bake a cake.  It's stupid.  All other aspects of this are irrelevant.  The state cannot compel a citizen to bake a cake.  There's just no basis for it.  cake is not important enough.  I don't really know how to explain this to anyone that doesn't understand it.  All the complex arguments for the legal basis are so much bullshit.  There's no good reason to compel the creation of cake.  Cake by itself guarantees someone will create it.  All it had to be was delicious.

Or pretty, I guess some people like it because it's pretty.

I don't particularly like cake if I'm honest, I prefer a good brownie.  But we're talking about cake here for some reason.

I don't know where you draw this particular line, but it isn't at the cake level.  At some point, yes, a homosexual should not be able to be denied service based on that.  At the government cake shop sure, because the government shouldn't discriminate, cake for everyone sure.  At the corporate cake store...eh it's hard for a corporation to survive the market with policies like that so I can see them choosing not to, and then I can make a case for dismissing an employee for failing to make the cake.  That's fine.

But I'm certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, it is wrong to use violence to compel the baking of cakes, and that's what happens if you say the owner/operator of a cake shop can't refuse a commission, and his reason why doesn't matter.

Maybe if there was a monopoly in charge of all baked goods, and this was the sole source, then maybe you could identify actual harm that was done.  But you can't.

We can call the baker misguided, homophobic, or stupid.  But there's no law that says you have to bake a cake, and if there is a law that says that we should change it, because it's not right to compel the baking of cakes.
The point isn't the cake, the point is the discrimination. I believe that everyone should be treated equally, and your ability to buy a cake should not depend on your sexual orientation. Are you trying to make the argument that businesses should be allowed to discriminate? Why?
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Scandium

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #899 on: February 08, 2018, 12:09:37 PM »
Talk about your hypocritical politically motivated flips.  Remember, the FBI kills/incarcerates black people.  No, I get it, they're going after an enemy of yours so its OK now.

Where exactly can I read about Democrats saying the FBI kills black people? They don't really do much street arrests of low-level (alleged) criminals/random people. So BLM etc have mainly focused on (often poorly trained) local police. Or were you just parroting "liberals hate police", because you are unable to see nuance?