Author Topic: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?  (Read 107163 times)

ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #700 on: January 29, 2018, 09:17:46 AM »
Please note: I am only here to counteract the frothy, naked, irrational hatred of Trump. I do not support the man, my vote for him was only a vote to undermine the 'inevitable' mandate that hillary might have felt she had, had she been elected. His impeachment, provided evidence of actual wrong doing, would be A-OK with me. The anti-trump sentiment is quite well represented so I remain silent on that.

Seems like you really picked the wrong word here. Not understanding why folks despise Trump does not make them irrational.
Are you suggesting there is no irrational hatred of Trump?  ncornilsen is only here to counteract the irrational hatred.  He's perfectly fine with the rational hatred, as am I.

I think what he said was not the wrong word.  The only way it would be wrong is if there is no irrational Trump hate.

Well, as people tend to use words like “rational” in these cases to mean “that which I agree with” and “irrational” as “everything else,” it’s mostly just a word game used as a way to dismiss others’ legitimate complaints. So, meh.
Even with those definitions, to say it's the wrong word means you've never heard a complaint about Trump that went too far.

No, it just means, why engage in an argument that you believe to have been undertaken in bad faith?



I prefer not to deal with imagination when talking to people . . . but to take their words at face value.  In my real world experience, imagining new meanings to everything that someone says is both unproductive and wrong.

so why are you doing it with what Trump said?

I'm not.


Let's say I told you to kill someone, while pointing at a fat white guy.


"GuitarStv tells ncornilsen to kill someone" is true.

"GuitarStv demands death of fat white guy"  is also true.

Neither deal with imagination.

Telling someone that you're not going to visit their country because you don't want to deal with protests is no different from telling them to ban protests or you won't visit.

No, not necessarily.

Not "necessarily," but in this context it absolutely is.

I don't agree. We have significant precedent for corralling protestors away from certain areas and not calling it a "ban on protests." I agree it's a bit childish for trump to want to be sheilded from it, the same way it was childish for Obama, Bush, the mayor (former mayor?) of Portland, et all, to do the same thing.

Let me pose a different scenario.

"guitarstv tells ncornilsen that he wants his neighbor to quit leaving crap on his lawn."

"guitarstv tells ncornilsen that he wants his neighbor dead" are NOT the same. GuitarStv is not responsible for someone interpreting the first statement as equal to the second, that lies with the knuckleheads who falsely equate the two.

Are you referring to the mayor of Portland who asked the federal government to rescind/deny the permits for alt-right rallies last year?  The ones that the federal government refused to revoke because of that pesky free speech thing we're supposed to support?

If you can cite a case where Obama or Bush banned protests, that'd be appreciated.

I was referring to a protest of the mayor's housing plans that was quitely denied a permit... as well as the incident where Patriot Prayer, an right-wing group that has denounce racists and the alt right, was unfairly characterized as 'alt-right.'

Your definition seems to be, than any effort to contain a protest to a specific area is considered a ban on protests.  If so, they any time there's been a permit issued for a protest that specified a route, location, time, or whatever, then somehow a protest was banned.

My definition of banning a protest doesn't include speciying a specific place for it to occur.

You have exceptionally slippery logic and a solid case of what-about-ism.

Trump refuses to go to the UK unless he can get a "warm welcome."

Quote
In one phone conversation during 2017, Trump complained to May over the criticism he’d been getting in British newspapers. Amid warnings that Trump would face protests in the streets when he arrived, he told the prime minister he would not be coming to the U.K. until she could promise him a warm welcome.

source

It is clear that Trump considers the existence of protests to be...well, not a warm welcome.  How exactly are his criteria going to be met unless you "officially or legally prohibit" protests?

If it's been acceptable, to this point, to specify locations for assemblies, establish routes for the demonstrations, etc... then a request to keep the protests out of Trumps sight is NOT a goddamned ban on protests. Trump is an ignorant enough buffoon to not understand why that isn't possible in this case, which makes him dumb, not a dictator. That's ALL I'm trying to say.

And the 'whatabout'ism is purely a response to the left trying to call trump Hitler for doing things alot of other presidents have done.

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #701 on: January 29, 2018, 09:22:59 AM »
If it's been acceptable, to this point, to specify locations for assemblies, establish routes for the demonstrations, etc... then a request to keep the protests out of Trumps sight is NOT a goddamned ban on protests. Trump is an ignorant enough buffoon to not understand why that isn't possible in this case, which makes him dumb, not a dictator. That's ALL I'm trying to say.

And the 'whatabout'ism is purely a response to the left trying to call trump Hitler for doing things alot of other presidents have done.

Which other US presidents have refused to enter the UK because of the possibility of protests?

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #702 on: January 29, 2018, 09:36:46 AM »
If it's been acceptable, to this point, to specify locations for assemblies, establish routes for the demonstrations, etc... then a request to keep the protests out of Trumps sight is NOT a goddamned ban on protests. Trump is an ignorant enough buffoon to not understand why that isn't possible in this case, which makes him dumb, not a dictator. That's ALL I'm trying to say.

And the 'whatabout'ism is purely a response to the left trying to call trump Hitler for doing things alot of other presidents have done.

The objection here isn't just that Trump is afraid of protests, it's that he is SO afraid of protests that he would refuse to even visit a foreign ally. 

Like he's such a fragile snowflake that the prospect of anything except a carefully curated crowd of adoring fans in matching hats is somehow unfathomable to him.  Like so many strong-men dictators who are actually insecure, they thought of anything except abject subservience from the masses threatens his personal narrative about his life story. 

For reference, let's remember that a foreign journalist literally threw a shoe at George W. Bush's head.  Bush isn't exactly remembered for his bravery, but can you imagine Trump voluntarily taking the podium in a room like that?  Without pre-screened questions from an approved list of friendly journos, where the hostility against him is so raw that it devolves into literal violence?  Trump is a TV personality more concerned with optics than democracy, he doesn't do tough situations like that and he CERTAINLY doesn't do them on camera.


ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #703 on: January 29, 2018, 09:38:02 AM »
If it's been acceptable, to this point, to specify locations for assemblies, establish routes for the demonstrations, etc... then a request to keep the protests out of Trumps sight is NOT a goddamned ban on protests. Trump is an ignorant enough buffoon to not understand why that isn't possible in this case, which makes him dumb, not a dictator. That's ALL I'm trying to say.

And the 'whatabout'ism is purely a response to the left trying to call trump Hitler for doing things alot of other presidents have done.

Which other US presidents have refused to enter the UK because of the possibility of protests?

Please stop moving the goalposts. The manufactured outrage was about trump trying to "Ban protests." Please look at Kris's original post. It was not about cancelling the trip because of the possibility of protests. those are different things. However, refusing to go the UK because of possible protests is exactly what trump did, and is absolutely childish, but I'm not sure if it's unprecedented. It's certainly quite a different thing than being a "dictator" who was trying to 'ban protests."   

MasterStache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #704 on: January 29, 2018, 12:08:36 PM »
This reminds of the time I heard "the travel ban isn't a ban."

JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #705 on: January 29, 2018, 12:16:38 PM »
If it's been acceptable, to this point, to specify locations for assemblies, establish routes for the demonstrations, etc... then a request to keep the protests out of Trumps sight is NOT a goddamned ban on protests. Trump is an ignorant enough buffoon to not understand why that isn't possible in this case, which makes him dumb, not a dictator. That's ALL I'm trying to say.

And the 'whatabout'ism is purely a response to the left trying to call trump Hitler for doing things alot of other presidents have done.

Which other US presidents have refused to enter the UK because of the possibility of protests?

Please stop moving the goalposts. The manufactured outrage was about trump trying to "Ban protests." Please look at Kris's original post. It was not about cancelling the trip because of the possibility of protests. those are different things. However, refusing to go the UK because of possible protests is exactly what trump did, and is absolutely childish, but I'm not sure if it's unprecedented. It's certainly quite a different thing than being a "dictator" who was trying to 'ban protests."

So very slippery.

If you're "not sure it's unprecedented," perhaps there's an answer for GuitarStv's question?

Which other US presidents have refused to enter the UK because of the possibility of protests?

partgypsy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #706 on: January 29, 2018, 01:24:09 PM »
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bush-torture/bushs-swiss-visit-off-after-complaints-on-torture-idUSTRE7141CU20110205

Here's one where Bush canceled a trip because of the possibility of being prosecuted for illegal torture of soldiers. Not quite the same but there were protests planned there as well. 

JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #707 on: January 29, 2018, 01:25:32 PM »
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bush-torture/bushs-swiss-visit-off-after-complaints-on-torture-idUSTRE7141CU20110205

Here's one where Bush canceled a trip because of the possibility of being prosecuted for illegal torture of soldiers. Not quite the same but there were protests planned there as well.

That's not remotely the same, lol.

ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #708 on: January 29, 2018, 02:07:21 PM »
If it's been acceptable, to this point, to specify locations for assemblies, establish routes for the demonstrations, etc... then a request to keep the protests out of Trumps sight is NOT a goddamned ban on protests. Trump is an ignorant enough buffoon to not understand why that isn't possible in this case, which makes him dumb, not a dictator. That's ALL I'm trying to say.

And the 'whatabout'ism is purely a response to the left trying to call trump Hitler for doing things alot of other presidents have done.

Which other US presidents have refused to enter the UK because of the possibility of protests?

Please stop moving the goalposts. The manufactured outrage was about trump trying to "Ban protests." Please look at Kris's original post. It was not about cancelling the trip because of the possibility of protests. those are different things. However, refusing to go the UK because of possible protests is exactly what trump did, and is absolutely childish, but I'm not sure if it's unprecedented. It's certainly quite a different thing than being a "dictator" who was trying to 'ban protests."

So very slippery.

If you're "not sure it's unprecedented," perhaps there's an answer for GuitarStv's question?

Which other US presidents have refused to enter the UK because of the possibility of protests?

If my logic is slippery, your logic is infantile in it's inability to grasp nuance of a situation and differentiate between trump meerly being a bad person and president versus being a dictator.   

I shall sum your logic up for you: It is OK to place restrictions on the time, place, marching route, etc, of a protest, unless trump requests something that might, only possibly, require that to be done... in which case its a BAN and he's a dictator.


you realize that if this had been brought up as "Look at that wimp trump, he won't even go to the UK because he's worried they'll protest him!" there wouldn't really be anything to discuss, right? Instead, someone blew it up into "Trump wants to ban protests, what a dictator!" that's all I'm trying to point out! The series of strawmen and moved goalposts that ensued has been ridiculous. 


As for Bush not going to Switzerland... the protests don't seem to be the thing that kept him away. Being subjected to arrest and what would inevitably be an unfair trial were the primary drivers there, I'd say.

JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #709 on: January 29, 2018, 04:00:16 PM »
If my logic is slippery, your logic is infantile in it's inability to grasp nuance of a situation and differentiate between trump meerly being a bad person and president versus being a dictator.   

I shall sum your logic up for you: It is OK to place restrictions on the time, place, marching route, etc, of a protest, unless trump requests something that might, only possibly, require that to be done... in which case its a BAN and he's a dictator.

you realize that if this had been brought up as "Look at that wimp trump, he won't even go to the UK because he's worried they'll protest him!" there wouldn't really be anything to discuss, right? Instead, someone blew it up into "Trump wants to ban protests, what a dictator!" that's all I'm trying to point out! The series of strawmen and moved goalposts that ensued has been ridiculous. 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

My position is that Trump wants the UK to ban protests for him or he won't visit. If your quibble is the "dictator" comment, you need to go talk to the person who said that. If your quibble is over the definition of "ban", I will defer to the dictionary.

ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #710 on: January 29, 2018, 04:38:57 PM »
If my logic is slippery, your logic is infantile in it's inability to grasp nuance of a situation and differentiate between trump meerly being a bad person and president versus being a dictator.   

I shall sum your logic up for you: It is OK to place restrictions on the time, place, marching route, etc, of a protest, unless trump requests something that might, only possibly, require that to be done... in which case its a BAN and he's a dictator.

you realize that if this had been brought up as "Look at that wimp trump, he won't even go to the UK because he's worried they'll protest him!" there wouldn't really be anything to discuss, right? Instead, someone blew it up into "Trump wants to ban protests, what a dictator!" that's all I'm trying to point out! The series of strawmen and moved goalposts that ensued has been ridiculous. 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

My position is that Trump wants the UK to ban protests for him or he won't visit. If your quibble is the "dictator" comment, you need to go talk to the person who said that. If your quibble is over the definition of "ban", I will defer to the dictionary.

You know, I did try to address it with the two individuals who said it. Include thier names? No. I dare not do that because I've known those individuals to consider that a personal attack and report me. Others piled in and tried to change the subject, insisting on converting my refusal to call the guy a dictator for something he didn't do into other things and aurguing about that. (should I put the strawman link here?) Every other post of mine since then, has been attempts at rephrasing my position in ways that these others would understand.

I've made it very clear that I think trump's request on it's face is lame, and does not reflect well on him. (or us). I just don't think he asked for an outright ban on protests of him, nor do I think he's a dictator because of it. I don't know the layout of London, and perhaps limiting the locations, times and routes isn't practical... but trump may not know that, which is why I don't think he was even implicitly requesting a ban.

I don't think it's honest to call any regulation or restriction on said protests to be a Ban. You would have to start calling all other kinds of regulation and restrictions "BANS" then, and of the issues that come to mind right away, I don't think that's what either side of the political aisle wants to see.



JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #711 on: January 29, 2018, 05:19:04 PM »
If my logic is slippery, your logic is infantile in it's inability to grasp nuance of a situation and differentiate between trump meerly being a bad person and president versus being a dictator.   

I shall sum your logic up for you: It is OK to place restrictions on the time, place, marching route, etc, of a protest, unless trump requests something that might, only possibly, require that to be done... in which case its a BAN and he's a dictator.

you realize that if this had been brought up as "Look at that wimp trump, he won't even go to the UK because he's worried they'll protest him!" there wouldn't really be anything to discuss, right? Instead, someone blew it up into "Trump wants to ban protests, what a dictator!" that's all I'm trying to point out! The series of strawmen and moved goalposts that ensued has been ridiculous. 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

My position is that Trump wants the UK to ban protests for him or he won't visit. If your quibble is the "dictator" comment, you need to go talk to the person who said that. If your quibble is over the definition of "ban", I will defer to the dictionary.

You know, I did try to address it with the two individuals who said it. Include thier names? No. I dare not do that because I've known those individuals to consider that a personal attack and report me. Others piled in and tried to change the subject, insisting on converting my refusal to call the guy a dictator for something he didn't do into other things and aurguing about that. (should I put the strawman link here?) Every other post of mine since then, has been attempts at rephrasing my position in ways that these others would understand.

I've made it very clear that I think trump's request on it's face is lame, and does not reflect well on him. (or us). I just don't think he asked for an outright ban on protests of him, nor do I think he's a dictator because of it. I don't know the layout of London, and perhaps limiting the locations, times and routes isn't practical... but trump may not know that, which is why I don't think he was even implicitly requesting a ban.

I don't think it's honest to call any regulation or restriction on said protests to be a Ban. You would have to start calling all other kinds of regulation and restrictions "BANS" then, and of the issues that come to mind right away, I don't think that's what either side of the political aisle wants to see.

Trump wants "a warm welcome." Even my infantile logic is able to deduce that Trump would interpret the existence of any significant protest, whether it directly interfered with his travels or not, as something other than "a warm welcome."  He was arguing about the size of his inauguration crowd for months...simply making sure he's not walking through masses of protesters is not enough to provide him with what he would consider to be "a warm welcome."

I'll just leave this here.


WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #712 on: January 29, 2018, 05:26:25 PM »
Trump is a fairly obvious case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder as defined by the DSM-V. Take a look at the characteristics of the disorder here and see how many fit Trump's behavior (pretty much all of them): https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20366662

wenchsenior

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #713 on: January 29, 2018, 07:52:34 PM »
Trump is a fairly obvious case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder as defined by the DSM-V. Take a look at the characteristics of the disorder here and see how many fit Trump's behavior (pretty much all of them): https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20366662

I know someone who was in actual hard core treatment for NPD, and Trump behaves and talks exactly like them (in public, at least).  It's kind of comical in a sick way.

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #714 on: January 30, 2018, 08:38:11 AM »
If my logic is slippery, your logic is infantile in it's inability to grasp nuance of a situation and differentiate between trump meerly being a bad person and president versus being a dictator.   

I shall sum your logic up for you: It is OK to place restrictions on the time, place, marching route, etc, of a protest, unless trump requests something that might, only possibly, require that to be done... in which case its a BAN and he's a dictator.

you realize that if this had been brought up as "Look at that wimp trump, he won't even go to the UK because he's worried they'll protest him!" there wouldn't really be anything to discuss, right? Instead, someone blew it up into "Trump wants to ban protests, what a dictator!" that's all I'm trying to point out! The series of strawmen and moved goalposts that ensued has been ridiculous. 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

My position is that Trump wants the UK to ban protests for him or he won't visit. If your quibble is the "dictator" comment, you need to go talk to the person who said that. If your quibble is over the definition of "ban", I will defer to the dictionary.

You know, I did try to address it with the two individuals who said it. Include thier names? No. I dare not do that because I've known those individuals to consider that a personal attack and report me. Others piled in and tried to change the subject, insisting on converting my refusal to call the guy a dictator for something he didn't do into other things and aurguing about that. (should I put the strawman link here?) Every other post of mine since then, has been attempts at rephrasing my position in ways that these others would understand.

Are you talking about when I made this joke:
The dictator is strong in this one.
?


If you'll notice, I didn't actually call Trump a dictator while making the joke.  Just because he does a lot of things that you would typically associate with a dictator doesn't make Trump a dictator.  While I strongly suspect that given the chance he would fall nicely into a dictatorial role, Trump has not yet been given the chance.  There are many protections inherent in the US political system that prevent this.

accolay

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #715 on: January 30, 2018, 10:24:52 PM »
There are many protections inherent in the US political system that prevent this.

Hopefully. They did say the same thing about the electoral college though...


ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #716 on: January 31, 2018, 07:43:47 AM »
If my logic is slippery, your logic is infantile in it's inability to grasp nuance of a situation and differentiate between trump meerly being a bad person and president versus being a dictator.   

I shall sum your logic up for you: It is OK to place restrictions on the time, place, marching route, etc, of a protest, unless trump requests something that might, only possibly, require that to be done... in which case its a BAN and he's a dictator.

you realize that if this had been brought up as "Look at that wimp trump, he won't even go to the UK because he's worried they'll protest him!" there wouldn't really be anything to discuss, right? Instead, someone blew it up into "Trump wants to ban protests, what a dictator!" that's all I'm trying to point out! The series of strawmen and moved goalposts that ensued has been ridiculous. 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

My position is that Trump wants the UK to ban protests for him or he won't visit. If your quibble is the "dictator" comment, you need to go talk to the person who said that. If your quibble is over the definition of "ban", I will defer to the dictionary.

You know, I did try to address it with the two individuals who said it. Include thier names? No. I dare not do that because I've known those individuals to consider that a personal attack and report me. Others piled in and tried to change the subject, insisting on converting my refusal to call the guy a dictator for something he didn't do into other things and aurguing about that. (should I put the strawman link here?) Every other post of mine since then, has been attempts at rephrasing my position in ways that these others would understand.

Are you talking about when I made this joke:
The dictator is strong in this one.
?


If you'll notice, I didn't actually call Trump a dictator while making the joke.  Just because he does a lot of things that you would typically associate with a dictator doesn't make Trump a dictator.  While I strongly suspect that given the chance he would fall nicely into a dictatorial role, Trump has not yet been given the chance.  There are many protections inherent in the US political system that prevent this.

I am talking about that, for one... mainly the headline in the article you were refering to. Apparently, I'm supposed to take the words people say, then extrapolate that to the most ingenerous interpretation of it I can come up with, and attack that.

Anyway, I've made my case, you've made yours, I understand what you're trying to say, and why you think it's equivilent to a ban, I just don't agree with it.


MasterStache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #717 on: January 31, 2018, 07:56:13 AM »
If my logic is slippery, your logic is infantile in it's inability to grasp nuance of a situation and differentiate between trump meerly being a bad person and president versus being a dictator.   

I shall sum your logic up for you: It is OK to place restrictions on the time, place, marching route, etc, of a protest, unless trump requests something that might, only possibly, require that to be done... in which case its a BAN and he's a dictator.

you realize that if this had been brought up as "Look at that wimp trump, he won't even go to the UK because he's worried they'll protest him!" there wouldn't really be anything to discuss, right? Instead, someone blew it up into "Trump wants to ban protests, what a dictator!" that's all I'm trying to point out! The series of strawmen and moved goalposts that ensued has been ridiculous. 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

My position is that Trump wants the UK to ban protests for him or he won't visit. If your quibble is the "dictator" comment, you need to go talk to the person who said that. If your quibble is over the definition of "ban", I will defer to the dictionary.

You know, I did try to address it with the two individuals who said it. Include thier names? No. I dare not do that because I've known those individuals to consider that a personal attack and report me. Others piled in and tried to change the subject, insisting on converting my refusal to call the guy a dictator for something he didn't do into other things and aurguing about that. (should I put the strawman link here?) Every other post of mine since then, has been attempts at rephrasing my position in ways that these others would understand.

Are you talking about when I made this joke:
The dictator is strong in this one.
?


If you'll notice, I didn't actually call Trump a dictator while making the joke.  Just because he does a lot of things that you would typically associate with a dictator doesn't make Trump a dictator.  While I strongly suspect that given the chance he would fall nicely into a dictatorial role, Trump has not yet been given the chance.  There are many protections inherent in the US political system that prevent this.

I am talking about that, for one... mainly the headline in the article you were refering to. Apparently, I'm supposed to take the words people say, then extrapolate that to the most ingenerous interpretation of it I can come up with, and attack that.

Anyway, I've made my case, you've made yours, I understand what you're trying to say, and why you think it's equivilent to a ban, I just don't agree with it.

Just curious if you still consider this "manufactured outrage" and if this is an example to you, of the "irrational hatred" you are claiming to try and combat.

ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #718 on: January 31, 2018, 11:24:29 AM »
If my logic is slippery, your logic is infantile in it's inability to grasp nuance of a situation and differentiate between trump meerly being a bad person and president versus being a dictator.   

I shall sum your logic up for you: It is OK to place restrictions on the time, place, marching route, etc, of a protest, unless trump requests something that might, only possibly, require that to be done... in which case its a BAN and he's a dictator.

you realize that if this had been brought up as "Look at that wimp trump, he won't even go to the UK because he's worried they'll protest him!" there wouldn't really be anything to discuss, right? Instead, someone blew it up into "Trump wants to ban protests, what a dictator!" that's all I'm trying to point out! The series of strawmen and moved goalposts that ensued has been ridiculous. 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

My position is that Trump wants the UK to ban protests for him or he won't visit. If your quibble is the "dictator" comment, you need to go talk to the person who said that. If your quibble is over the definition of "ban", I will defer to the dictionary.

You know, I did try to address it with the two individuals who said it. Include thier names? No. I dare not do that because I've known those individuals to consider that a personal attack and report me. Others piled in and tried to change the subject, insisting on converting my refusal to call the guy a dictator for something he didn't do into other things and aurguing about that. (should I put the strawman link here?) Every other post of mine since then, has been attempts at rephrasing my position in ways that these others would understand.

Are you talking about when I made this joke:
The dictator is strong in this one.
?


If you'll notice, I didn't actually call Trump a dictator while making the joke.  Just because he does a lot of things that you would typically associate with a dictator doesn't make Trump a dictator.  While I strongly suspect that given the chance he would fall nicely into a dictatorial role, Trump has not yet been given the chance.  There are many protections inherent in the US political system that prevent this.

I am talking about that, for one... mainly the headline in the article you were refering to. Apparently, I'm supposed to take the words people say, then extrapolate that to the most ingenerous interpretation of it I can come up with, and attack that.

Anyway, I've made my case, you've made yours, I understand what you're trying to say, and why you think it's equivilent to a ban, I just don't agree with it.

Just curious if you still consider this "manufactured outrage" and if this is an example to you, of the "irrational hatred" you are claiming to try and combat.

Among the posters on this forum? No, probably not. I think in some cases they will contort things trump does to justify thier hate of him, that they would let slide for anyone else.

I went on to read a number of other articles to see if I could get the actual words Trump used... these articles were clearly trying to manufacture outrage to give those who already hate trump something to read to confirm thier opinion of the many. They would take what trump said and left unsaid (based on other articles) and make tenuous leaps to comparisons with hitler and mussilini.  These people, and the commentors there (never read comments!) are irrational.

golden1

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #719 on: January 31, 2018, 11:52:27 AM »
Quote
Trump is a fairly obvious case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder as defined by the DSM-V. Take a look at the characteristics of the disorder here and see how many fit Trump's behavior (pretty much all of them): https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20366662

My step-father was diagnosed with NPD and he and Trump are uncannily alike.  My step-father was a successful attorney, could persuade the socks off anyone, but would immediately back stab you if he could gain anything out of it.  Like Trump, he would hit bottom, and then run away from his problems while blaming anyone else but himself.  He would charm a new sucker, and then proceed to start the cycle all over again.  He is currently (to my knowledge) on his fourth wife.  He went through about 5 different law firms over a 20 year period. 

I have been thinking a lot about what makes Trump persuasive to people, because it completely baffles me.  I see people who were disparaging him during the campaign, fully on board the Trump train now, and it boggles the mind. 

wenchsenior

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #720 on: January 31, 2018, 01:15:32 PM »
Quote
Trump is a fairly obvious case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder as defined by the DSM-V. Take a look at the characteristics of the disorder here and see how many fit Trump's behavior (pretty much all of them): https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20366662

My step-father was diagnosed with NPD and he and Trump are uncannily alike.  My step-father was a successful attorney, could persuade the socks off anyone, but would immediately back stab you if he could gain anything out of it.  Like Trump, he would hit bottom, and then run away from his problems while blaming anyone else but himself.  He would charm a new sucker, and then proceed to start the cycle all over again.  He is currently (to my knowledge) on his fourth wife.  He went through about 5 different law firms over a 20 year period. 

I have been thinking a lot about what makes Trump persuasive to people, because it completely baffles me.  I see people who were disparaging him during the campaign, fully on board the Trump train now, and it boggles the mind.

I keep reminding myself that the NPD sufferer I know could be immensely persuasive, charming, and successful, as long as the people he was interacting with did things his way and reinforced his own opinion of himself.  Thus, he actually made friends and attracted people quite easily.  It was sustaining successful relationships that was incredibly difficult for him.  On the other hand, although he superficially behaves and talks similarly to Trump (in terms of speech patterns and self importance),  he's far more personally attractive, funny, couth, and charming.  Also more ethical in business matters.  Trump just reads as a sleazy car salesman or tv huckster to me and always has, not to mention thoroughly revolting in appearance and manner.  Trump doesn't even seem like a real person, but more like the cliched embodiment of every disgusting characteristic America can produce.

So I'm not sure why he's so attractive to people, except that Americans are conditioned from birth to equate fame (no matter how derived) with skill/talent/general awesomeness.

It is very strange, that's for sure.

partgypsy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #721 on: January 31, 2018, 01:46:55 PM »
There are many people who think if you are wealthy and/or famous, you must have done something good in your life, been worthy of gaining that wealth and fame.

PKFFW

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #722 on: January 31, 2018, 04:37:44 PM »
There are many people who think if you are wealthy and/or famous, you must have done something good in your life, been worthy of gaining that wealth and fame.
It's the flip side of the just universe fallacy.

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #723 on: January 31, 2018, 04:47:17 PM »
There are many people who think if you are wealthy and/or famous, you must have done something good in your life, been worthy of gaining that wealth and fame.

It seems to have worked for the Kardashians.  And Donald Trump.

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #724 on: January 31, 2018, 07:34:21 PM »
There have been a shit ton of protests in the US, can he just not come back here either?

GrayGhost

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #725 on: January 31, 2018, 08:58:26 PM »
I watched SOTU from start to finish and if nothing else, I was surprised. There was the typical meaningless chatter at the beginning, but a few lines were real zingers, such as the one about standing for the national anthem. Kudos to the speechwriter on that. The comments about the opioid epidemic also seem to be effective, as both Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders have posted about how it's a big problem.

Kind of puts things in perspective... I try and have friends of all types, but I really have no idea how the other half lives. Many people in this country are in the clutches of alcohol, drugs, and worse. It's really eye opening.

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #726 on: February 01, 2018, 02:25:35 AM »
It's being reported from Moscow that the heads of all the Russian security services visited Washington last week.  Including one who is under sanctions imposed by Congress for being responsible for the illegal armed Russian invasion of peaceful Ukraine.  Not announced by the Trump government.

You have a bunch of traitors who are in hock to the Russians in the White House and running the US government.

MasterStache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #727 on: February 01, 2018, 05:30:16 AM »
but a few lines were real zingers, such as the one about standing for the national anthem. Kudos to the speechwriter on that.

Why was it a Zinger? Just curious why you thought that since it was grossly misrepresented by the POTUS and others.

partgypsy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #728 on: February 01, 2018, 06:44:12 AM »
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/01/donald-trump-just-asked-congress-to-end-the-rule-of-law.html

His statement saying: "I call on the congress to empower every Cabinet secretary with the authority to reward good workers—and to remove federal employees who undermine the public trust or fail the American people.”  That is, the head of the agencies themselves, or the DOJ would not be in charge of hiring and firing, but Trump's cabinet members. And I wouldn't be surprised if the hirings and firings are based on political reasons, not performance. I would not be surprised if this led to a witch hunt of firings based on anyone saying anything bad about Trump, publically or personally.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 06:46:29 AM by partgypsy »

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #729 on: February 01, 2018, 07:52:41 AM »
Given that Trump has demonstrated a dangerous lack of understanding regarding climate science (one that both undermines the public trust and fails the American people), I guess he is trying to set up a way to get himself fired?

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #730 on: February 02, 2018, 09:38:15 AM »
Here's my rambling theory:

Trump joined the campaign as a lark to get more attention for his TV show. He ended up winning despite outlandish statements.

Now that he's in the big chair, he can't handle the duties of the office. Too much stakeholder drama, satisfying rival factions, can't focus on his business, can't goof around like the good ol' days, etc. He can't have it his way all time, he's annoyed, irritated, frustrated. He won't up and quit because that a sad, sore, evil loser move.

The upside is a clearing of career politicians, more on the GOP side, but some Dems too. If the DOJ and FBI probes bring anything good, it'll strengthen the laws, and clean up the swamp as Trump wants.

If Hillary was elected, chances are slim that the DC corruption would have been exposed as it is under this administration. It'd be the same old, same old.

Change is good, even when bad.

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #731 on: February 02, 2018, 09:56:00 AM »
can't goof around like the good ol' days, etc.

Trump has played golf 95 time in his first year in office.  That's almost twice a week. 

So let's not feel TOO bad for him.  Seems like he's finding a way to play twice as much golf as Obama played, and has spent roughly 1/3 of his time in office at golf resorts.  I don't think he's exactly overworked.

Just Joe

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #732 on: February 02, 2018, 11:52:20 AM »
I'm all for anything that peacefully teaches America to be smarter. Maybe people won't be so damn flippant about who they vote for. The past decade has certainly taught DW and I alot about the people we thought we knew best.

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #733 on: February 02, 2018, 01:53:10 PM »
can't goof around like the good ol' days, etc.

Trump has played golf 95 time in his first year in office.  That's almost twice a week. 

So let's not feel TOO bad for him.  Seems like he's finding a way to play twice as much golf as Obama played, and has spent roughly 1/3 of his time in office at golf resorts.  I don't think he's exactly overworked.
Don't you know most deals are made on the golf course? There's several anecdotal data points to support my view. He isn't playing, he's perfecting his business pitch to sell America like he did at Davos and MAGA!

MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #734 on: February 02, 2018, 02:27:28 PM »
I'm all for anything that peacefully teaches America to be smarter. Maybe people won't be so damn flippant about who they vote for. The past decade has certainly taught DW and I alot about the people we thought we knew best.
Many people who voted for Trump took that decision seriously.  I'm guessing about the same amount of people who took voting seriously voted for Trump as voted for Hillary.  The reason Trump won isn't that the Trump voters were flippant, it's that they weighted the pros and cons differently. 

I think if someone tried to make voters value voting more, it wouldn't dramatically change the results.  Democrats might be saying they need more intelligent/serious/etc. voters now, but Republicans were saying it during the Obama years.  To win you need them to value the same things the same way. 

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #735 on: February 02, 2018, 02:33:26 PM »
The reason Trump won isn't that the Trump voters were flippant, it's that they weighted the pros and cons differently. 

I think that the reason Trump won is that democratic voter turnout was effectively suppressed by negative media coverage of Hillary (thanks Russia!). 

Remember that Trump didn't get more voters, or different voters, than Romney or McCain got, and they both lost.  He basically got the same voters that the Republican candidate always gets.  This time around that was enough, because a bunch of democratic voters stayed home or voted third party.

Which is why this thread is kind of silly.  There are almost no crossover voters among Republicans.  They vote party, or they don't vote.  Approximately zero percent of them are going to vote for a democrat, regardless of candidate quality.  I think our pussy grabber in chief makes that point rather elegantly.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 02:35:18 PM by sol »

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #736 on: February 02, 2018, 03:42:38 PM »
Which is why this thread is kind of silly.  There are almost no crossover voters among Republicans.  They vote party, or they don't vote.  Approximately zero percent of them are going to vote for a democrat, regardless of candidate quality.
I agree, and if you swap the parties, it's mostly true too.  I'm not really here to switch how I vote, more to understand and therefore empathize and be compassionate of the other side.  Sometimes I struggle :)

Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #737 on: February 02, 2018, 04:09:34 PM »
The reason Trump won isn't that the Trump voters were flippant, it's that they weighted the pros and cons differently. 

I think that the reason Trump won is that democratic voter turnout was effectively suppressed by negative media coverage of Hillary (thanks Russia!). 

Remember that Trump didn't get more voters, or different voters, than Romney or McCain got, and they both lost.  He basically got the same voters that the Republican candidate always gets.  This time around that was enough, because a bunch of democratic voters stayed home or voted third party.

Which is why this thread is kind of silly.  There are almost no crossover voters among Republicans.  They vote party, or they don't vote.  Approximately zero percent of them are going to vote for a democrat, regardless of candidate quality.  I think our pussy grabber in chief makes that point rather elegantly.

He got a lot of democrat blue collar voters that were previously Obama voters, and then he lost a lot of republican voters who did not want to vote for him because he's not conservative (although he has mostly governed as one, but they couldn't know that) and/or because, well, he's Trump, with all the negatives that entails. 

Not huge numbers percentage wise, but he got them in important states. 

YttriumNitrate

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #738 on: February 03, 2018, 10:16:00 AM »
Despite the bluster and near constant carnival side show, the substance of what has happened in Trump's first year has fairly reasonable from my perspective.

First, he hasn't started any new wars (so far). There have been a couple actions in already existing conflicts, but nothing compared to some others (think Bush the 2nd in Iraq, or Clinton in Somalia).

Second, the tax code has been simplified by reducing the number of people itemizing.

Third, there's Gorsuch.

Fourth, the individual mandate of the ACA has been removed. While I do appreciate that my United Healthcare stock is up 650% since Obamacare was enacted, with skyrocketing premiums something needs to be done. My thinking is that if ACA is still around the next time the Democrats take control, they will be less likely to try another major overhaul (i.e., Single Payer Medicare for All).

former player

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #739 on: February 03, 2018, 11:44:25 AM »
Third, there's Gorsuch.
Why are people crediting Trump with Gorsuch?  It was Mitch McConnell who played ducks and drakes with Senate procedures so that the Supreme Court vacancy became a Republican one rather than a Democratic one.  Trump was handed a slam dunk, and Gorsuch just one of many qualified conservative judges who would have been appointed by any Republican in office.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #740 on: February 03, 2018, 12:02:07 PM »
Why are people crediting Trump with Gorsuch?  It was Mitch McConnell who played ducks and drakes with Senate procedures so that the Supreme Court vacancy became a Republican one rather than a Democratic one.  Trump was handed a slam dunk, and Gorsuch just one of many qualified conservative judges who would have been appointed by any Republican in office.
Who said anything about giving Trump, and Trump alone, the credit for all those things?

Regarding the four things I mentioned, my approximation of who was responsible would be:
1. 95% Trump / 5% Congress
2. 20% Trump / 80% Congress
3. 50% Trump / 50% Congress
4. 20% Trump / 80% Congress

Also, getting Soutered again is a big concern in Supreme Court picks, so I will give Trump credit for publishing his list of candidates for the high court during his campaign, and sticking to it.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 12:12:05 PM by YttriumNitrate »

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #741 on: February 03, 2018, 12:54:09 PM »
Also, getting Soutered again is a big concern in Supreme Court picks, so I will give Trump credit for publishing his list of candidates for the high court during his campaign, and sticking to it.

Yes. Let's ignore his nominations for lower courts.

It's like we're grading on a curve here.

PKFFW

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #742 on: February 03, 2018, 01:59:05 PM »
Despite the bluster and near constant carnival side show, the substance of what has happened in Trump's first year has fairly reasonable from my perspective.

First, he hasn't started any new wars (so far). There have been a couple actions in already existing conflicts, but nothing compared to some others (think Bush the 2nd in Iraq, or Clinton in Somalia).

Second, the tax code has been simplified by reducing the number of people itemizing.

Third, there's Gorsuch.

Fourth, the individual mandate of the ACA has been removed. While I do appreciate that my United Healthcare stock is up 650% since Obamacare was enacted, with skyrocketing premiums something needs to be done. My thinking is that if ACA is still around the next time the Democrats take control, they will be less likely to try another major overhaul (i.e., Single Payer Medicare for All).
It's actually a pretty sad indictment that the first thing you can think to list as an achievement is that your President has not started any new wars "yet".

Kris

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #743 on: February 03, 2018, 02:18:02 PM »
Despite the bluster and near constant carnival side show, the substance of what has happened in Trump's first year has fairly reasonable from my perspective.

First, he hasn't started any new wars (so far). There have been a couple actions in already existing conflicts, but nothing compared to some others (think Bush the 2nd in Iraq, or Clinton in Somalia).

Second, the tax code has been simplified by reducing the number of people itemizing.

Third, there's Gorsuch.

Fourth, the individual mandate of the ACA has been removed. While I do appreciate that my United Healthcare stock is up 650% since Obamacare was enacted, with skyrocketing premiums something needs to be done. My thinking is that if ACA is still around the next time the Democrats take control, they will be less likely to try another major overhaul (i.e., Single Payer Medicare for All).
It's actually a pretty sad indictment that the first thing you can think to list as an achievement is that your President has not started any new wars "yet".

The “yet” is also pretty accurate...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Clock

partgypsy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #744 on: February 03, 2018, 03:06:43 PM »
Anyone who researches it, would be for our country enacting single payer. It's less expensive per person, with better public health outcomes. We are in the minority of civilized countries, who doesn't realize that healthcare is a public concern. It impacts almost every aspect of society, from pregnancy, to childbirth, to preventative care, to the ability of the populace to hold down a job and do those jobs safely.

GrayGhost

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #745 on: February 03, 2018, 07:37:34 PM »
but a few lines were real zingers, such as the one about standing for the national anthem. Kudos to the speechwriter on that.

Why was it a Zinger? Just curious why you thought that since it was grossly misrepresented by the POTUS and others.

It flowed perfectly and brashly and unapologetically acknowledged a patriotic tradition. It is the distillation of civic nationalism into a single sentence. It's part of the reason the rebuttals to SOTU have been mediocre at best... there wasn't that much to criticize.

As far as POTUS's golfing habits go, I say good, and I wish he would play much more golf.

As far as the lack of new wars go, I do have to give him credit for that... and on a related note, we are rapidly approaching the deployment of troops to Afghanistan who were born AFTER 9/11. To put things in contrast, 9/11 is as far in the past from now as Pearl Harbor was from 1958 - five years AFTER the end of the KOREAN War, and the year AFTER Sputnik was launched into orbit!
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 07:42:09 PM by GrayGhost »

MasterStache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #746 on: February 04, 2018, 06:30:07 AM »
but a few lines were real zingers, such as the one about standing for the national anthem. Kudos to the speechwriter on that.

Why was it a Zinger? Just curious why you thought that since it was grossly misrepresented by the POTUS and others.

It flowed perfectly and brashly and unapologetically acknowledged a patriotic tradition. It is the distillation of civic nationalism into a single sentence. It's part of the reason the rebuttals to SOTU have been mediocre at best... there wasn't that much to criticize.

As far as POTUS's golfing habits go, I say good, and I wish he would play much more golf.

As far as the lack of new wars go, I do have to give him credit for that... and on a related note, we are rapidly approaching the deployment of troops to Afghanistan who were born AFTER 9/11. To put things in contrast, 9/11 is as far in the past from now as Pearl Harbor was from 1958 - five years AFTER the end of the KOREAN War, and the year AFTER Sputnik was launched into orbit!

So if I read you correctly you have determined that the right to peacefully protest, currently a constitutional right provided to all people of this country, takes a back seat to your version of "patriotic tradition?" Ah I see. Obviously I disagree. I know that when I served I signed an oath to the Constitution, not to some sort of perverse form of "patriotic tradition" with complete subservience as the main goal. I think what Kaep is doing is actually carrying on a patriotic tradition, specifically in sports, that started long before him. 

"There I was, the black grandson of a slave, the son of a black sharecropper … a symbolic hero to my people. … The band struck up the National Anthem. The flag billowed in the wind. It should have been a glorious moment for me as the stirring words of the National Anthem poured from the stands. Perhaps, it was, but then again….

As I write this 20 years later, I cannot stand and sing the anthem. I cannot salute the flag; I know that I am a black man in a white world. In 1972, in 1947, at my birth in 1919, I know that I never had it made." - Jackie Robinson
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 08:59:24 AM by MasterStache »

partgypsy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #747 on: February 04, 2018, 08:36:13 AM »
but a few lines were real zingers, such as the one about standing for the national anthem. Kudos to the speechwriter on that.

Why was it a Zinger? Just curious why you thought that since it was grossly misrepresented by the POTUS and others.

It flowed perfectly and brashly and unapologetically acknowledged a patriotic tradition. It is the distillation of civic nationalism into a single sentence. It's part of the reason the rebuttals to SOTU have been mediocre at best... there wasn't that much to criticize.

As far as POTUS's golfing habits go, I say good, and I wish he would play much more golf.

As far as the lack of new wars go, I do have to give him credit for that... and on a related note, we are rapidly approaching the deployment of troops to Afghanistan who were born AFTER 9/11. To put things in contrast, 9/11 is as far in the past from now as Pearl Harbor was from 1958 - five years AFTER the end of the KOREAN War, and the year AFTER Sputnik was launched into orbit!

So if I read you correctly you have determined that the right to peacefully protest, currently a constitutional right provided to all people of this country, takes a back seat to your version of "patriotic tradition?" Ah I see. Obviously I disagree. I know that when I served I signed an oath to the constitution, not to some sort of perverse form of "patriotic tradition" with complete subservience as the main goal. I think what Kaep is doing is actually carrying on a patriotic tradition, specifically in sports, that started long before him. 

"There I was, the black grandson of a slave, the son of a black sharecropper … a symbolic hero to my people. … The band struck up the National Anthem. The flag billowed in the wind. It should have been a glorious moment for me as the stirring words of the National Anthem poured from the stands. Perhaps, it was, but then again….

As I write this 20 years later, I cannot stand and sing the anthem. I cannot salute the flag; I know that I am a black man in a white world. In 1972, in 1947, at my birth in 1919, I know that I never had it made." - Jackie Robinson

amen

GrayGhost

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #748 on: February 04, 2018, 10:11:52 AM »
But, I never said that the NFL players don't have the right to free expression or that their right to free expression takes a back seat to anything. They absolutely do have the right to kneel during the anthem to protest. It doesn't offend me and if anything, I am somewhat sympathetic to their cause.

With that said, I don't know if you can have a functioning nation of the head of state fails to support civic nationalism and patriotism. POTUS does not seem to have supported the fining or imprisonment of the NFL players, although he does support the right of fans to boycott the NFL and he did acknowledge the value in having patriotic traditions (gasp). What is wrong with that?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 10:18:48 AM by GrayGhost »

Fireball

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #749 on: February 04, 2018, 10:23:23 AM »
POTUS does not seem to have supported the fining or imprisonment of the NFL players, although he does support the right of fans to boycott the NFL. What is wrong with that?

He seemed to have supported them being fired and called them sons of bitches. This is our President mind you.