Author Topic: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?  (Read 51315 times)

PKFFW

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #650 on: January 22, 2018, 06:58:38 PM »
It strikes me that Protectionism is sort of like Communism - great in theory but no one can actually point out an example of where it has worked well in practice.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #651 on: January 22, 2018, 07:02:31 PM »
consumers and workers will win.

You do realize that these two groups are on opposite sides of the offshoring debate, right?  What's good for workers is bad for consumers (namely, protectionist policies that drive up the prices for goods).

Disagree.  Protectionism works because it keeps money circulating in our economy, provides our workers with steady reliable and fair income. Just my opinion.  I'd rather pay more for my Ford knowing people near me have jobs.
I'm being pedantic but money will be "circulating in our economy" regardless since the balance of payments must be zero and any current account deficit will be matched with a capital account surplus. It's actually a bit of a surprising and long-lasting scheme on our part to buy consumer goods while selling Treasuries overseas accruing real interest at rates below 0% (the two aren't directly connected but are offsetting items in the BOP).

It's wrong to assume if Fords aren't built in the US that your neighbors won't have jobs. There are some subtle problems with the position of free trade/comparative advantage fundamentalists, but generally, open economies are more successful than protectionist ones. I consider it possible that there is such a thing as Really Smart Mercantilism that results in superior performance at a national level to free trade but my suspicion is Really Smart Mercantilism is a very difficult set of trading policies to successfully discover and enact.

bacchi

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #652 on: January 22, 2018, 08:01:08 PM »
It strikes me that Protectionism is sort of like Communism - great in theory but no one can actually point out an example of where it has worked well in practice.

What's required is a highly desirable resource owned exclusively by that country/company/entity.

Except for the conspiracy, and the natural predators, it worked well for House Atreides.


MasterStache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #653 on: January 23, 2018, 05:57:12 AM »
consumers and workers will win.

You do realize that these two groups are on opposite sides of the offshoring debate, right?  What's good for workers is bad for consumers (namely, protectionist policies that drive up the prices for goods).

I'd rather pay more for my Ford knowing people near me have jobs.


Funny how protectionism works only when you apply logic that doesn't represent the typical consumer.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-made-in-america-attitudes-20170721-story.html
http://money.cnn.com/2017/03/13/news/economy/donald-trump-buy-american/index.html

Makes sense as to why Trump still keeps manufacturing products in China, Indonesia and Bangladesh among many others. 

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #654 on: January 23, 2018, 07:16:49 AM »
It strikes me that Protectionism is sort of like Communism - great in theory but no one can actually point out an example of where it has worked well in practice.

Asian economies. The gist is that successful Asian economies used protectionist policies to defend certain key industries while they leaped up the learning curve. Market discipline was imposed by forcing companies to meet export quotas: You didn't have to compete in the home market, but you had to sell a certain number of cars in the competitive American market, or else you would be forced to sell off your company to one of the more profitable economies.

Communism doesn't work and can't work. There's a possible logic behind the protectionist arguments, but for economies like the US it is basically just rewarding producers at the expense of consumers.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #655 on: January 23, 2018, 08:17:12 AM »
Wait, you guys are free market capitalists I thought?  I can't keep up.  Do you support free market capitalism or government intervention in the market?  Please pick one.

The tariff move, btw, is expected to cause the loss of 23,000 American jobs this year alone.
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caffeine

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #656 on: January 23, 2018, 08:46:50 AM »
Wait, you guys are free market capitalists I thought?  I can't keep up.  Do you support free market capitalism or government intervention in the market?  Please pick one.

The tariff move, btw, is expected to cause the loss of 23,000 American jobs this year alone.

It depends. Do you think China should prop up industries to produce items below market value to destroy US companies? They did it with steel.  China also does intellectual theft with impunity.

By the nature of the tariff, US Solar installation industry will lose. US Solar manufactures win.

CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #657 on: January 23, 2018, 09:05:35 AM »
Wait, you guys are free market capitalists I thought?  I can't keep up.  Do you support free market capitalism or government intervention in the market?  Please pick one.

The tariff move, btw, is expected to cause the loss of 23,000 American jobs this year alone.

That's the thing, historically the GOP had NOT been free market unfettered capitalism.  Fremont and Lincoln were hardcore protectionists and the GOP more or less held that view well into the mid 20th century.  Read up on McKinley.  It was American School of economics.  Still capitalistic but clearly based on economic nationalism.  Then the neo-cons took over.  Like Trump said, Reagan was a great president but he was wrong on trade.  I can't speak for every Republican but if you want me to "pick one" I pick the economic stance that our party had in the beginning.  If that makes me an impure capitalist I really don't care.  MAGA

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #658 on: January 23, 2018, 09:06:33 AM »
Wait, you guys are free market capitalists I thought?  I can't keep up.  Do you support free market capitalism or government intervention in the market?  Please pick one.

The tariff move, btw, is expected to cause the loss of 23,000 American jobs this year alone.

Free trade agreements are currently a minority position within the GOP as the base has gotten more nativist over the last few cycles. The leadership has usually been mostly on board with the free-trade agreements, and has been for decades (probably longer).

I'm pretty much with the neoliberals.

Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #659 on: January 23, 2018, 09:26:19 AM »
It strikes me that Protectionism is sort of like Communism - great in theory but no one can actually point out an example of where it has worked well in practice.

Well, it works if your goal is to make people work more.  Think if you took it to its logical extreme, and decided that any money you "exported" outside of your household made you poorer.  You wouldn't just have one job per person, you'd have multiple jobs per person and never have to worry about being unemployed.  You'd almost certainly be a subsistence level farmer and desperately poor, but you'd never be unemployed. 

You might could also have zero unemployment if you were protectionist at the city level, depending on how big the city is, but you'd also likely be pretty poor. 

MasterStache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #660 on: January 23, 2018, 09:39:25 AM »
Wait, you guys are free market capitalists I thought?  I can't keep up.  Do you support free market capitalism or government intervention in the market?  Please pick one.

The tariff move, btw, is expected to cause the loss of 23,000 American jobs this year alone.

It depends. Do you think China should prop up industries to produce items below market value to destroy US companies? They did it with steel.  China also does intellectual theft with impunity.

By the nature of the tariff, US Solar installation industry will lose. US Solar manufactures win.

Manufacturers will not "win" as much as you may think. There are only roughly 38,000 people employed in solar manufacturing across the US. First year projections alone are roughly 23,000 folks losing their jobs, some even in manufacturing. There are several hundred thousand employed in installation with "solar installer" poised to become one of the fastest growing jobs in the US.

Panels themselves represent only about a third or less of the total cost. BUT, even a 10-15 cent/watt increase in price greatly extends payback time. That's vitally important to folks like myself and others who have or are contemplating putting up a solar array. Everyone loses. No one wins.

Nothing like applauding a decision to further push the US behind in renewable energy installation, destroying jobs, and not seeking to exploit the fastest growing energy market on the planet, as most developed countries are currently doing. 


DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #661 on: January 23, 2018, 09:39:41 AM »
Wait, you guys are free market capitalists I thought?  I can't keep up.  Do you support free market capitalism or government intervention in the market?  Please pick one.

The tariff move, btw, is expected to cause the loss of 23,000 American jobs this year alone.

It depends. Do you think China should prop up industries to produce items below market value to destroy US companies? They did it with steel.  China also does intellectual theft with impunity.

By the nature of the tariff, US Solar installation industry will lose. US Solar manufactures win.

If China is manipulating it, tax Chinese solar panels specifically - and defer that issue to Congress...Who, by the way, should handle all taxes and tariffs as our Constitution mandates.  (Weren't Republicans the ones running around with pocket book Constitutions?)

Imagine a 30% tariff being placed on DVD players at the turn of the century for the sake of the VCR industry.  That's what this is.  It's ****ing stupid.

If you believe China is manipulating solar prices (also...washers? wtf? Does Whirlpool need that much help?) to undercut American manufacturers...either allow Congress to enact a tax on Chinese solar panels or subsidize American manufacturers (oh wait...that was on Obama-era subsidy/tax credit.  We can't have that, right?) to keep them more in line.

Look, obviously the government gets involved quite a bit with subsidies, grants, taxes, tax credits, etc. in business.  But those go through Congress, not the White House.  Isn't that what the right was screaming for years under Obama?
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caffeine

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #662 on: January 23, 2018, 10:59:50 AM »
If China is manipulating it, tax Chinese solar panels specifically - and defer that issue to Congress...Who, by the way, should handle all taxes and tariffs as our Constitution mandates.  (Weren't Republicans the ones running around with pocket book Constitutions?)

Everyone loves executive orders until their team isn't in power.

Imagine a 30% tariff being placed on DVD players at the turn of the century for the sake of the VCR industry.  That's what this is.  It's ****ing stupid.

False equivalence. China has stolen solar companies trade/manufacturing secrets. They are essentially stealing from US Companies, sell it back to us at artificially low prices to gain market share, and raise prices slowly after the competition is gone.

Steel is closer to a real world example. The EU imposed a 13% tariff on China steel because of their practice.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/04/27/news/companies/us-steel-china-investigation-trade/index.html

If you believe China is manipulating solar prices (also...washers? wtf? Does Whirlpool need that much help?) to undercut American manufacturers...either allow Congress to enact a tax on Chinese solar panels or subsidize American manufacturers (oh wait...that was on Obama-era subsidy/tax credit.  We can't have that, right?) to keep them more in line.

Look, obviously the government gets involved quite a bit with subsidies, grants, taxes, tax credits, etc. in business.  But those go through Congress, not the White House.  Isn't that what the right was screaming for years under Obama?

Your post seems to concede something needs/could be done but let Congress. You seem more concerned with score keeping than your interest in US success. Executive orders can be given and be unconstitutional.

When you're President, as Obama has seen, the sluggish turn of Congress is unbearable.

Although, some subsidies would be helpful about now.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 11:01:43 AM by caffeine »

MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #663 on: January 23, 2018, 11:07:42 AM »
Wait, you guys are free market capitalists I thought?  I can't keep up.  Do you support free market capitalism or government intervention in the market?  Please pick one.

The tariff move, btw, is expected to cause the loss of 23,000 American jobs this year alone.

That's the thing, historically the GOP had NOT been free market unfettered capitalism.  Fremont and Lincoln were hardcore protectionists and the GOP more or less held that view well into the mid 20th century.  Read up on McKinley.  It was American School of economics.  Still capitalistic but clearly based on economic nationalism.  Then the neo-cons took over.  Like Trump said, Reagan was a great president but he was wrong on trade.  I can't speak for every Republican but if you want me to "pick one" I pick the economic stance that our party had in the beginning.  If that makes me an impure capitalist I really don't care.  MAGA
That's like saying historically, Democrats have been the party of racists.  While technically true, you're going back a long ways to make that true. 

In the last 40 years or so, I don't consider Democrats being the party of racists, and I don't consider the GOP being protectionists. 

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #664 on: January 23, 2018, 11:20:49 AM »
In the last 40 years or so, I don't consider Democrats being the party of racists, and I don't consider the GOP being protectionists.

Why not both?  If you're going to hew to distant historical party positions, Trump is just as much a racist democrat as he is a protectionist republican.

Which suggests to me that Trump isn't so much tied to modern political party ideologies as he is tied to long-abandoned positions from our historical past. His idea of MAGA appears to be returning us to the 1860s.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #665 on: January 23, 2018, 12:08:47 PM »
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R44707.pdf

Quote
The United States Constitution gives Congress the power to impose and collect taxes, tariffs, duties, and the like, and to regulate international commerce. While the Constitution gives the President authority to negotiate international agreements, it assigns him no specific power over international commerce and trade.

If you are 1) going to carry the Constitution around in a pocket-sized book you don't then get to praise the President for violating the Constitution and 2) one of the people upset at the number of EO's Barack Obama signed you should remain consistent in your views and hold Trump to the same standard of not picking winners and losers.

As I said above, are Republicans actually capitalists or not?  Protectionism by definition is anti-free market capitalism.  I don't care either way.  Just pick one and then stick to it.

There are 38,000 solar manufacturing jobs and many companies have come out and said this is going to kill jobs.  That number may be cut in half IN A YEAR.  So don't feed me the B.S. that Trump cares about Americans when he's signing an EO that will kill thousands of jobs in the solar industry.

If Republicans are now anti-free market capitalists, pro-EO, anti-Constitutionalists...fine.  Just say it and own it and stop running back and forth between positions when it's politically convenient.
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MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #666 on: January 23, 2018, 12:19:59 PM »
In the last 40 years or so, I don't consider Democrats being the party of racists, and I don't consider the GOP being protectionists.

Why not both?  If you're going to hew to distant historical party positions, Trump is just as much a racist democrat as he is a protectionist republican.

Which suggests to me that Trump isn't so much tied to modern political party ideologies as he is tied to long-abandoned positions from our historical past. His idea of MAGA appears to be returning us to the 1860s.
Yeah, I never considered Trump to be a conservative.  The GOP seems to be moving away from conservatism, I guess.

As I said above, are Republicans actually capitalists or not?  Protectionism by definition is anti-free market capitalism.  I don't care either way.  Just pick one and then stick to it.

There are many Republicans, some are capitalists, some are not.  Most I know are capitalists, but I cannot say for the majority.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #667 on: January 23, 2018, 01:43:16 PM »
https://thinkprogress.org/trump-solar-tariff-backfires-36cb1c4f7fbc/

Quote
The bottom line is that Trump’s new tariff on solar imports will have a very limited impact on China or domestic solar manufacturers, but red states will take a disproportionate share of the lost revenues and lost jobs from the reduction in U.S. solar installations — and taxpayers will end up footing much of the bill. This, sadly, is the kind of counterproductive impact we have come to expect from Trump’s energy policies.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/01/trumps-solar-tax-will-hurt-trump-more-than-solar.html?utm_campaign=di&utm_source=tw&utm_medium=s1

Quote
Analysts expect that the tariffs will create negligible American jobs in solar-panel manufacturing. Turning the clock back on solar adoption by about two years is not going to do much to save coal or prevent the continued spread of clean energy. Like many of his attacks on the Obama legacy, he is throwing sand in the gears of operations that he cannot stop.

It’s also worth noting that clean energy is really, really popular. People may not like carbon taxes, but they definitely like the idea of supporting new renewable energy.

That’s why John McCain in 2008 and Mitt Romney in 2012 both gave at least lip service to the idea of supporting more renewable energy, and Trump claimed to harbor an abiding affection for solar energy. (“I know a lot about solar. I love solar.”) He was not promising to tax solar energy. That’s another unpopular action he’ll have to defend in 2020.
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WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #668 on: January 23, 2018, 02:59:59 PM »
https://thinkprogress.org/trump-solar-tariff-backfires-36cb1c4f7fbc/

Quote
The bottom line is that Trump’s new tariff on solar imports will have a very limited impact on China or domestic solar manufacturers, but red states will take a disproportionate share of the lost revenues and lost jobs from the reduction in U.S. solar installations — and taxpayers will end up footing much of the bill. This, sadly, is the kind of counterproductive impact we have come to expect from Trump’s energy policies.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/01/trumps-solar-tax-will-hurt-trump-more-than-solar.html?utm_campaign=di&utm_source=tw&utm_medium=s1

Quote
Analysts expect that the tariffs will create negligible American jobs in solar-panel manufacturing. Turning the clock back on solar adoption by about two years is not going to do much to save coal or prevent the continued spread of clean energy. Like many of his attacks on the Obama legacy, he is throwing sand in the gears of operations that he cannot stop.

It’s also worth noting that clean energy is really, really popular. People may not like carbon taxes, but they definitely like the idea of supporting new renewable energy.

That’s why John McCain in 2008 and Mitt Romney in 2012 both gave at least lip service to the idea of supporting more renewable energy, and Trump claimed to harbor an abiding affection for solar energy. (“I know a lot about solar. I love solar.”) He was not promising to tax solar energy. That’s another unpopular action he’ll have to defend in 2020.

I am glad we did our rooftop solar installation before all of this happened. We need more people adopting solar and wind. Not less. We're going to end up so far behind the rest of the world at this rate.

Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #669 on: January 23, 2018, 04:18:45 PM »
Yeah, I never considered Trump to be a conservative.  The GOP seems to be moving away from conservatism, I guess.

Trump is basically a populist democrat from 10-15 years ago, and that's more or less what put him over the edge, is winning populist democrats who were turned off by identify politics, environmentalism as religion, and coastal elitism of the modern democrat party. 

Conservative doesn't really meaningfully describe any significant faction in the current political landscape.
 Liberal still reasonably describes something to people, even if it is more or less the exact opposite of the dictionary definition of the word liberal.  Many "conservatives" are in fact radicals that want to go back to a federal government limited to enumerated powers, but not enough of them for that to be a useful word the way liberal is to describe statists.  There's still a small group of people who are "standing athwart history and yelling stop", but they are a very small group also.  Just not a lot of people that think the current level of government scope and powers are appropriate without wanting to expand them.  There is probably a small group of people in the republican party who do want to roll back government, but incrementally.    But mostly I think people have given up on principled approaches to government.  They are just less obvious versions of trump, picking positions out of the air with no rhyme or reason other than a few issues they particularly are impacted by personally or are just passionate about a particular issue.


As I said above, are Republicans actually capitalists or not?  Protectionism by definition is anti-free market capitalism.  I don't care either way.  Just pick one and then stick to it.

There are many Republicans, some are capitalists, some are not.  Most I know are capitalists, but I cannot say for the majority.

I would say most are free market capitalist except protectionist when it comes to their business/profession/employment (maybe by being pro licensing, pro-regulation that limits competition, or straight up protectionist trade policy).  Similarly to most people on the left being pro-regulation generally, but the regulation in the industry that they have expertise in just happens to be particularly bad. 

MasterStache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #670 on: January 24, 2018, 06:14:45 AM »
https://thinkprogress.org/trump-solar-tariff-backfires-36cb1c4f7fbc/

Quote
The bottom line is that Trump’s new tariff on solar imports will have a very limited impact on China or domestic solar manufacturers, but red states will take a disproportionate share of the lost revenues and lost jobs from the reduction in U.S. solar installations — and taxpayers will end up footing much of the bill. This, sadly, is the kind of counterproductive impact we have come to expect from Trump’s energy policies.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/01/trumps-solar-tax-will-hurt-trump-more-than-solar.html?utm_campaign=di&utm_source=tw&utm_medium=s1

Quote
Analysts expect that the tariffs will create negligible American jobs in solar-panel manufacturing. Turning the clock back on solar adoption by about two years is not going to do much to save coal or prevent the continued spread of clean energy. Like many of his attacks on the Obama legacy, he is throwing sand in the gears of operations that he cannot stop.

It’s also worth noting that clean energy is really, really popular. People may not like carbon taxes, but they definitely like the idea of supporting new renewable energy.

That’s why John McCain in 2008 and Mitt Romney in 2012 both gave at least lip service to the idea of supporting more renewable energy, and Trump claimed to harbor an abiding affection for solar energy. (“I know a lot about solar. I love solar.”) He was not promising to tax solar energy. That’s another unpopular action he’ll have to defend in 2020.

I am glad we did our rooftop solar installation before all of this happened. We need more people adopting solar and wind. Not less. We're going to end up so far behind the rest of the world at this rate.

Good for you! Yep we are already really far behind. This will put us further behind. But it will be applauded by Trump supporters mostly. Only in America is passing legislature, jacking up prices, stifling an industry and causing massive layoffs considered a prerequisite for making our country great (again) I guess. Seems to be the theme the last few days on here.

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #671 on: January 24, 2018, 07:24:49 AM »
Trump is basically a populist democrat from 10-15 years ago, and that's more or less what put him over the edge, is winning populist democrats who were turned off by identify politics

Building a wall to keep Mexicans out, trying to ban Muslims from entering the country, supporting the Klan, condoning sexual violence against women, attacking black football players, . . . An awful lot of Trump's ideas (both before and after being elected) revolve around identity politics.  If identity politics are important to you, I don't see how you could possibly be a Trump supporter.

Just Joe

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #672 on: January 24, 2018, 08:30:16 AM »
Trump did say he wanted to bring back coal. What better way than to kill off part of the renewable industry?

Just another reason to avoid supporting the GOP on voting day.

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #673 on: January 24, 2018, 08:38:09 AM »
Trump did say he wanted to bring back coal. What better way than to kill off part of the renewable industry?

You say that as if it's an amusing side effect, but I thought that was always transparently the point.  When he said he wanted to bring back coal, what he was really saying was that he was going to stop renewable energy.  It wasn't even coded the way these things usually are (e.g. "states rights", "Barack Hussein Obama", "welfare queens"). 

This sort of language is designed to sound innocuous to some voters, but to convey a second meaning to some subset of the base, usually a subset that shares media exposure to conservative media that repeats these phrases ad naseum in the context of denigrating something.  But Trump's announcements about how much he loves the coal industry aren't even hidden very well, they just seem like obvious anti-renewable-energy talk to me, and I assumed to everyone else too. 

Just Joe

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #674 on: January 24, 2018, 09:03:29 AM »
"This sort of language is designed to sound innocuous to some voters, but to convey a second meaning to some subset of the base, usually a subset that shares media exposure to conservative media that repeats these phrases ad naseum in the context of denigrating something."

That's a main strategy tool of the GOP - its all double speak. I can't listen to anything they say without considering any potential alternative messages.

The DEMs - not so much. They seem to say what they mean more often. They aren't perfect.

Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #675 on: January 24, 2018, 09:34:32 AM »
Trump did say he wanted to bring back coal. What better way than to kill off part of the renewable industry?

Just another reason to avoid supporting the GOP on voting day.

Renewables aren't killing off coal.  Renewables are mostly just a wealth transfer mechanism in the U.S., generally moving money from poor to wealthy if it is a state level policy like net metering or renewable portfolio standard supporting renewables, and from taxpayer to richer taxpayer as far as the 30% tax credit for solar or the production credit for wind.  But even with all that, they don't displace much coal.  They are small percentage of energy produced to begin with and even where there are large concentrations, they tend to displace natural gas rather than coal because of the intermittent nature of their load.

Coal has been killed by a combination of costly regulations and cheap natural gas, and probably most importantly for the long term, by the regulatory uncertainty.  IN the short term, natural gas has displaced a lot of coal because of economics and a lot of coal plants have been shut down or converted because of CSPR, MATS, Clean Power Plan, etc.  Even the regulations that are ultimately shut down or not even implemented cause coal plants to be shuttered or converted because utilities have to plan as if they are going to be implemented.  That's really hurt the coal industry in the short term, as a ton of their domestic market just disappeared.  But what's killing coal in the long term is that coal plants are baseload plants that are really capital intensive but make sense economically because they provide economic power for 40 years.  Nobody is going to build coal plants when they might get shut down in ten years (or less). 

For the long term, U.S. coal that stays in the U.S. is going to go to industrial processes and the U.S. coal industry will be dependent on foreign demand to replace the demand that has disappeared from the U.S. utility industry. 

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #676 on: January 26, 2018, 09:31:05 AM »
And today in “our president is an idiot,” Donald Trump tells Theresa May he won’t visit the UK unless she bans protests.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/donald-trump-tells-theresa-may-he-wont-visit-uk-unless-she-bans-protests-1656638
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #677 on: January 26, 2018, 09:44:59 AM »
And today in “our president is an idiot,” Donald Trump tells Theresa May he won’t visit the UK unless she bans protests.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/donald-trump-tells-theresa-may-he-wont-visit-uk-unless-she-bans-protests-1656638

Bans... protests...?

An American said that?

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #678 on: January 26, 2018, 09:46:53 AM »
The dictator is strong in this one.

ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #679 on: January 26, 2018, 09:55:10 AM »

The DEMs - not so much. They seem to say what they mean more often. They aren't perfect.

You're kidding, right? So many things the democrats say are like this. It's a politician thing. Republicans certainly do it, but the Dems, ABSOLUTELY do this to, and in similar magnitudes. It would be a delusion to think otherwise or consider this somehow unique to the GOP.

ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #680 on: January 26, 2018, 09:58:20 AM »
And today in “our president is an idiot,” Donald Trump tells Theresa May he won’t visit the UK unless she bans protests.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/donald-trump-tells-theresa-may-he-wont-visit-uk-unless-she-bans-protests-1656638

Please revise your post to state what he ACTUALLY said.  He didn't say "Ban protests." He wanted assurances he wouldn't be met with them, which is a subtle yet key difference than requesting that they be banned.  she didn't comply, he went anyway. (I thought he went to the UK, he's actually currently in Switzerland.)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 10:54:40 AM by ncornilsen »

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #681 on: January 26, 2018, 10:02:21 AM »
And today in “our president is an idiot,” Donald Trump tells Theresa May he won’t visit the UK unless she bans protests.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/donald-trump-tells-theresa-may-he-wont-visit-uk-unless-she-bans-protests-1656638

Please revise your post to state what he ACTUALLY said.  He didn't say "Ban protests." He wanted assurances he wouldn't be met with them, which is a subtle yet key difference than requesting that they be banned.  she didn't comply, he went anyway.

How would it have been in her power to prevent Trump from being met with protests without banning them (at least in particular areas)?

ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #682 on: January 26, 2018, 10:05:16 AM »
And today in “our president is an idiot,” Donald Trump tells Theresa May he won’t visit the UK unless she bans protests.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/donald-trump-tells-theresa-may-he-wont-visit-uk-unless-she-bans-protests-1656638

Please revise your post to state what he ACTUALLY said.  He didn't say "Ban protests." He wanted assurances he wouldn't be met with them, which is a subtle yet key difference than requesting that they be banned.  she didn't comply, he went anyway.

How would it have been in her power to prevent Trump from being met with protests without banning them (at least in particular areas)?

I'm not sure, and I'm not saying that was a reasonable request Like I said, it's it is a subtle difference, yet not at all like demanding she BAN protests of trump.

but they could be confined to a specific area of town. that's not the same as banning them. When Obama visited  small rural town I used to live near, those who wanted to protest him, and what he was there to say and do, were kept well away from where he was going to be. The reporters also didn't bother showing up, despite the large crowd.


Please note: I am only here to counteract the frothy, naked, irrational hatred of Trump. I do not support the man, my vote for him was only a vote to undermine the 'inevitable' mandate that hillary might have felt she had, had she been elected. His impeachment, provided evidence of actual wrong doing, would be A-OK with me. The anti-trump sentiment is quite well represented so I remain silent on that.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 10:09:48 AM by ncornilsen »

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #683 on: January 26, 2018, 10:13:30 AM »
The request could not have been fulfilled without banning protests in areas that Trump was likely to go . . . so therefore it was a request to ban protests.  You were unable to provide another interpretation of the comment.  That would therefore seem to be a reasonable way to view the situation without 'frothy, naked, or irrational hatred of Trump'.

Kris

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #684 on: January 26, 2018, 10:18:13 AM »
And today in “our president is an idiot,” Donald Trump tells Theresa May he won’t visit the UK unless she bans protests.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/donald-trump-tells-theresa-may-he-wont-visit-uk-unless-she-bans-protests-1656638

Please revise your post to state what he ACTUALLY said.  He didn't say "Ban protests." He wanted assurances he wouldn't be met with them, which is a subtle yet key difference than requesting that they be banned.  she didn't comply, he went anyway.

He went anyway?

Uh,what?

Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

MasterStache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #685 on: January 26, 2018, 10:36:27 AM »
Please note: I am only here to counteract the frothy, naked, irrational hatred of Trump. I do not support the man, my vote for him was only a vote to undermine the 'inevitable' mandate that hillary might have felt she had, had she been elected. His impeachment, provided evidence of actual wrong doing, would be A-OK with me. The anti-trump sentiment is quite well represented so I remain silent on that.

Seems like you really picked the wrong word here. Not understanding why folks despise Trump does not make them irrational.

Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #686 on: January 26, 2018, 10:37:01 AM »
The request could not have been fulfilled without banning protests in areas that Trump was likely to go . . . so therefore it was a request to ban protests.  You were unable to provide another interpretation of the comment.  That would therefore seem to be a reasonable way to view the situation without 'frothy, naked, or irrational hatred of Trump'.

Have none of you really ever been asked for a personal representation for a judgment you are in a better position to make? 

Maybe Trump was actually asking for protests to be banned (even though he hasn't tried to ban protests in the U.S.), but it seems more likely he was looking for something along the lines of (1) Tell me the truth, am I going to be walking into a shitstorm or (2) Tell me the truth, are you going to be able to arrange our appearances so I'm not in the middle of a shit storm (which in the U.S. might take the form of doing the "appearance" on a military base or some other restricted access but looks public site).  But it definitely takes a lack of imagination and any real world experience to claim he was for sure asking for protests to be banned. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #687 on: January 26, 2018, 10:48:50 AM »
Maybe Trump was actually asking for protests to be banned (even though he hasn't tried to ban protests in the U.S.),

Eh.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/12/10/16758148/trump-dave-weigel-washington-post-crowd-size
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/432064/donald-trump-first-amendment-hed-gut-it
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/01/04/trumps-cease-and-desist-letter-a-desperate-attempt-to-silence-bannon/?utm_term=.2ab746cfeca8
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/presidential/trump-tillerson-moron-nbc-news-stephanie-ruhle-20171005.html
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/26/trump-pledges-curb-press-freedom-libel-laws-first-amendment
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/11/23/trump_thanksgiving_tweet_menacingly_singles_out_reporter_for_calling_him.html
. . . etc.

Banning protests is certainly within the realm of Trumps typical behaviour to silence critics in the US.



it seems more likely he was looking for something along the lines of (1) Tell me the truth, am I going to be walking into a shitstorm or (2) Tell me the truth, are you going to be able to arrange our appearances so I'm not in the middle of a shit storm (which in the U.S. might take the form of doing the "appearance" on a military base or some other restricted access but looks public site).

So you believe it's more likely that he was asking for something that he didn't request?  And that he failed to travel to the country because his lack of request to meet at a military base wasn't met?



But it definitely takes a lack of imagination and any real world experience to claim he was for sure asking for protests to be banned. 

I prefer not to deal with imagination when talking to people . . . but to take their words at face value.  In my real world experience, imagining new meanings to everything that someone says is both unproductive and wrong.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 10:52:25 AM by GuitarStv »

ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #688 on: January 26, 2018, 10:52:16 AM »
Please note: I am only here to counteract the frothy, naked, irrational hatred of Trump. I do not support the man, my vote for him was only a vote to undermine the 'inevitable' mandate that hillary might have felt she had, had she been elected. His impeachment, provided evidence of actual wrong doing, would be A-OK with me. The anti-trump sentiment is quite well represented so I remain silent on that.

Seems like you really picked the wrong word here. Not understanding why folks despise Trump does not make them irrational.

A fine point, but it applies the other way to. Not understanding why people dispised Clinton enough to vote against here doesn't make them irrational, either.

There is a level of disgust and dispisement of trump that is reasonable. What I see a ton of, is speculation on what might have said, what he might say, what he might mean if you read-between-the-lines-just-so, that everyone gets fired up about. I understand the rational reasons to dispise trump, and I'm not talking about that. He's a gross human being. Cheated on his wife, has no decorum, is bombastic and provactive (and not in the way that might shake things up and cause some creative desruction).

 
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 10:57:57 AM by ncornilsen »

ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #689 on: January 26, 2018, 10:53:31 AM »
And today in “our president is an idiot,” Donald Trump tells Theresa May he won’t visit the UK unless she bans protests.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/donald-trump-tells-theresa-may-he-wont-visit-uk-unless-she-bans-protests-1656638

Please revise your post to state what he ACTUALLY said.  He didn't say "Ban protests." He wanted assurances he wouldn't be met with them, which is a subtle yet key difference than requesting that they be banned.  she didn't comply, he went anyway.

He went anyway?

Uh,what?

Heh, yeah I made a mistake. He's in Switzerland, not the UK. I had mixed that up.

partgypsy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #690 on: January 26, 2018, 10:54:31 AM »
And today in “our president is an idiot,” Donald Trump tells Theresa May he won’t visit the UK unless she bans protests.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/donald-trump-tells-theresa-may-he-wont-visit-uk-unless-she-bans-protests-1656638

Please revise your post to state what he ACTUALLY said.  He didn't say "Ban protests." He wanted assurances he wouldn't be met with them, which is a subtle yet key difference than requesting that they be banned.  she didn't comply, he went anyway.

He went anyway?

Uh,what?

He's scheduled to go, hasn't gone yet.
As you might have noticed, Trump is not fond of free speech of others so, yeah while he didn't say ban them, he also said he didn't want to be bothered by them. But sometimes that's the price of freedom. I'm fine with that as long as it is done peacefully.

former player

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #691 on: January 26, 2018, 10:55:31 AM »
The request could not have been fulfilled without banning protests in areas that Trump was likely to go . . . so therefore it was a request to ban protests.  You were unable to provide another interpretation of the comment.  That would therefore seem to be a reasonable way to view the situation without 'frothy, naked, or irrational hatred of Trump'.

Have none of you really ever been asked for a personal representation for a judgment you are in a better position to make? 

Maybe Trump was actually asking for protests to be banned (even though he hasn't tried to ban protests in the U.S.), but it seems more likely he was looking for something along the lines of (1) Tell me the truth, am I going to be walking into a shitstorm or (2) Tell me the truth, are you going to be able to arrange our appearances so I'm not in the middle of a shit storm (which in the U.S. might take the form of doing the "appearance" on a military base or some other restricted access but looks public site).  But it definitely takes a lack of imagination and any real world experience to claim he was for sure asking for protests to be banned.
Trump was lined up to open the new US Embassy in London.  It's in Battersea, which is inner London.  The chances of his visit not being a shitstorm of protest (even if not quite at the level of bare bottoms along the Mall) were nil.  Any attempts by Prime Minister May to limit legitimate, peaceful protest would have been politically ruinous.

tl;dr Trump was asking for a ban, May said no, Trump didn't come, outcome excellent.
Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #692 on: January 26, 2018, 11:00:27 AM »


I prefer not to deal with imagination when talking to people . . . but to take their words at face value.  In my real world experience, imagining new meanings to everything that someone says is both unproductive and wrong.

so why are you doing it with what Trump said?

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #693 on: January 26, 2018, 11:07:56 AM »


I prefer not to deal with imagination when talking to people . . . but to take their words at face value.  In my real world experience, imagining new meanings to everything that someone says is both unproductive and wrong.

so why are you doing it with what Trump said?

I'm not.


Let's say I told you to kill someone, while pointing at a fat white guy.


"GuitarStv tells ncornilsen to kill someone" is true.

"GuitarStv demands death of fat white guy"  is also true.

Neither deal with imagination.

Telling someone that you're not going to visit their country because you don't want to deal with protests is no different from telling them to ban protests or you won't visit.

caffeine

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #694 on: January 26, 2018, 11:42:07 AM »


I prefer not to deal with imagination when talking to people . . . but to take their words at face value.  In my real world experience, imagining new meanings to everything that someone says is both unproductive and wrong.

so why are you doing it with what Trump said?

I'm not.


Let's say I told you to kill someone, while pointing at a fat white guy.


"GuitarStv tells ncornilsen to kill someone" is true.

"GuitarStv demands death of fat white guy"  is also true.

Neither deal with imagination.

Telling someone that you're not going to visit their country because you don't want to deal with protests is no different from telling them to ban protests or you won't visit.

No, not necessarily.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 11:44:36 AM by caffeine »

MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #695 on: January 26, 2018, 11:55:46 AM »
Please note: I am only here to counteract the frothy, naked, irrational hatred of Trump. I do not support the man, my vote for him was only a vote to undermine the 'inevitable' mandate that hillary might have felt she had, had she been elected. His impeachment, provided evidence of actual wrong doing, would be A-OK with me. The anti-trump sentiment is quite well represented so I remain silent on that.

Seems like you really picked the wrong word here. Not understanding why folks despise Trump does not make them irrational.
Are you suggesting there is no irrational hatred of Trump?  ncornilsen is only here to counteract the irrational hatred.  He's perfectly fine with the rational hatred, as am I.

I think what he said was not the wrong word.  The only way it would be wrong is if there is no irrational Trump hate.

JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #696 on: January 26, 2018, 11:56:16 AM »


I prefer not to deal with imagination when talking to people . . . but to take their words at face value.  In my real world experience, imagining new meanings to everything that someone says is both unproductive and wrong.

so why are you doing it with what Trump said?

I'm not.


Let's say I told you to kill someone, while pointing at a fat white guy.


"GuitarStv tells ncornilsen to kill someone" is true.

"GuitarStv demands death of fat white guy"  is also true.

Neither deal with imagination.

Telling someone that you're not going to visit their country because you don't want to deal with protests is no different from telling them to ban protests or you won't visit.

No, not necessarily.

Not "necessarily," but in this context it absolutely is.

Just Joe

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #697 on: January 26, 2018, 12:01:29 PM »
Please note: I am only here to counteract the frothy, naked, irrational hatred of Trump. I do not support the man, my vote for him was only a vote to undermine the 'inevitable' mandate that hillary might have felt she had, had she been elected. His impeachment, provided evidence of actual wrong doing, would be A-OK with me. The anti-trump sentiment is quite well represented so I remain silent on that.

Seems like you really picked the wrong word here. Not understanding why folks despise Trump does not make them irrational.

A fine point, but it applies the other way to. Not understanding why people dispised Clinton enough to vote against here doesn't make them irrational, either.

There is a level of disgust and dispisement of trump that is reasonable. What I see a ton of, is speculation on what might have said, what he might say, what he might mean if you read-between-the-lines-just-so, that everyone gets fired up about. I understand the rational reasons to dispise trump, and I'm not talking about that. He's a gross human being. Cheated on his wife, has no decorum, is bombastic and provactive (and not in the way that might shake things up and cause some creative desruction).

Don't forget he cheated on ALL his wives - at least once with a porn star and perhaps with prostitutes. Said some creepy stuff about his daughters too. He doesn't get to lecture anyone about morality or truth anymore. I'm not even a prude about that stuff but he can't travel through life launching frequent self-righteous attacks on other people while he is breaking the law, breaking his marital vows, lying, etc. He's a lousy person.

Dabnasty

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #698 on: January 26, 2018, 12:03:41 PM »
I really think we should just let this one go. I'm confident that if banning protests could have gotten Trump what he wanted he would be all for it, but I don't think that's what he said. Either A) he was asking that protests be restricted to certain areas or B) he was asking for something that he didn't think all the way through. B is my assumption in this case because not thinking through the logistics and technical issues of accomplishing a thing is par for the course coming from Trump.

But the real reason I think we should let it go is that there are so many concrete examples of Trump saying and doing things worse than this that we shouldn't spend too much time arguing about the details of what he meant when there's actually a plausible alternative to him asking for a ban. For fuck's sake, he puts random quotation marks in his tweets so he can say he wasn't being literal or that he was just quoting someone. That's the kind of excuse 12 year olds make. If he thinks he's fooling anyone with that (unfortunately he probably is) he wouldn't think twice about this request.

Kris

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #699 on: January 26, 2018, 12:04:03 PM »
Please note: I am only here to counteract the frothy, naked, irrational hatred of Trump. I do not support the man, my vote for him was only a vote to undermine the 'inevitable' mandate that hillary might have felt she had, had she been elected. His impeachment, provided evidence of actual wrong doing, would be A-OK with me. The anti-trump sentiment is quite well represented so I remain silent on that.

Seems like you really picked the wrong word here. Not understanding why folks despise Trump does not make them irrational.
Are you suggesting there is no irrational hatred of Trump?  ncornilsen is only here to counteract the irrational hatred.  He's perfectly fine with the rational hatred, as am I.

I think what he said was not the wrong word.  The only way it would be wrong is if there is no irrational Trump hate.

Well, as people tend to use words like “rational” in these cases to mean “that which I agree with” and “irrational” as “everything else,” it’s mostly just a word game used as a way to dismiss others’ legitimate complaints. So, meh.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.