Author Topic: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?  (Read 51321 times)

craiglepaige

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #600 on: January 17, 2018, 09:41:53 AM »
I'm not saying anyone has a right to employment.  I don't know where people keep getting that idea.

really?

he should have a steady salary at the Ford plant making 50K and benefits.

Should in theory.  No legal right.  Again, I used 50k somewhat arbitrarily because it's a lot better than making minimum wage at Wal-Mart. 

I just bought a pair of LL Bean boots recently.  Hand stitched and made in Maine.  Only $85.  Why can't we make shoes in America?  Why do we have to buy shit Nike shoes made by a poor woman in Southeast Asia who was paid shit wages working 12 hour days and possibly raped in the company bathroom?  Why can't we make iPhones in Wisconsin?  Go ahead and keep posting your articles though.  I keep looking at the 2016 electoral map and laughing my ass off.

I see a lot of LL Bean boots and similar wear, but it's mostly because I work among relatively wealthy, privileged urban workers. For a lot of families, $85 is a lot of money, especially when you are talking about outfitting multiple people in expensive boots. And everything ELSE will be getting more expensive, too, and most likely lower quality because of the reduced competition.

I don't mind paying higher prices for products. It's better than paying taxes that get sent out as income transfers, IMO. But plenty of people wouldn't be able to afford it, at least not without a lot of struggle.


Not entirely true.  Walk around a lower class neighborhood, like Cleveland's westside (around my mom's W65th area) and you see Nike, Adidas, UA and such - no LL Bean, that's for sure. 

The mentality amongst the people there is to look to what the rappers and basketball players are wearing and mimic them. As my best friend, who also grew up poor like me likes to say, the only thing of value (money) in their lives is the clothes on their backs and shoes on their feet.
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Milizard

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #601 on: January 17, 2018, 10:01:16 AM »
Because when you're in a state like Michigan that is built historically on making stuff, U6 unemployment of over 10% is still REALLY fucking high.  Because those people don't have income and don't spend money, and then it's hard for others to build businesses to serve others.  And realize that Michigan had population growth of only .80% last year, one of the lowest in the country.  People (especially the young) are leaving the state because (to sound like Trump) our jobs went to fucking Mexico.

Maybe Michigan is just a really unfortunate state?

I mean I've heard this exact same argument from people in West Virginia, about coal mines.  And California, after the gold rush.  And Alaska, when the price of oil dropped.  Even my own city, when the railroad relocated the western terminus to Seattle, went through a period of dismal economic prospects and never fully recovered.  My point is only that capitalism requires creative destruction.  Industries rise and fall, and it hurts when they fall.  Some places are going to lose out.  Like Detroit.

I think the principle of what CheapScholar is saying should be obvious. Keep jobs here, pay a good wage and have locals support locals.

In paper it should work. Unfortunately corporations don't give a shit about principles and they only care about the bottom line.  So you have all of them sending their manufacturing jobs abroad. 

Protectionism is a seductive lie.  It makes things worse for workers, not better.  It sounds good on the face of it to keep jobs locally, but in every case for which we have good economic data the net impact is negative.  You don't help your economy grow by forcing goods to be produced inefficiently.  That tends to raise the cost of goods more than it raises the cost of wages (both of which are bad for businesses, btw), and the workers end up with a lower standard of living.

Free trade solves this problem.  It allows goods to be produced in the most optimal way.  It keeps prices lower.  Do you really believe you could buy 99 cent tshirts at Walmart if we required all clothing to be manufactured in the US?


There are of course other down sides to free trade, like environmental destruction and shitty working conditions in free trade zones, but these are the price of first world prosperity.  America benefits from cheap foreign labor.  Some American workers get paid less, but everyone gets to buy more.  On balance, this helps the economy.

If Michigan successfully reclaimed all of their auto manufacturing jobs, it would absolutely be a death sentence for American auto manufacturers.  Protectionists are asking us to kill the very thing they love.

I think Michigan will be fine eventually, though maybe not Detroit so much.  It was too dependent upon the auto industry, but there's a lot more to the state than just that.

Now as for the above bolded selection.  That is a seductive lie.  I would contend that the 99 cent t-shirt from Walmart is an huge exercise in waste.  The externalities are more numerous than anyone here has mentioned.  The lax health, safely and environmental standards in the places where they are produced are coupled with the waste of transportation across to the other side of the globe, in addition to the impact where they are purchased.  They are considered cheap, disposable goods.  People will buy more and replace much more frequently, as the quality is worse and people don't want to bother with cleaning and repair, filling our waste sites in the process.  Compare 20 99 cent shirts from China to one well-made and cherished T-shirt that is kept for years.  We are destroying our environment and using up natural resources much more quickly for a few more pennies in profit and shitty quality.

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #602 on: January 17, 2018, 10:07:49 AM »
to say that if Michigan was to acquire back all of the jobs it lost would be the end of the auto industry is rather difficult to grasp. 

Let me walk you through it.

If US companies had to manufacture their products in the US where wages are higher, their costs to produce would rise and so their prices would have to rise too.

If the wages of all of their customers also went up (what protectionist want) and the cost of all of their competitors products also went up, then this would work out fine.  The two big problems here are 1. that US corporations sell to global markets, so not all customers would see increased wages, and 2.  not all global companies manufacture in the US, so their products would not get more expensive.

Capitalism thrives on market competition, and in this scenario foreign made goods of equal quality become relatively cheaper, and so gain market share.  US companies are stuck with a more expensive product that doesn't sell.  The US companies can't compete, because they are wasting money on inefficient production.

Then you have to remember that the US is already an evolved economy full of middle class consumers, but the rest of the world has approximately 3 billion third world inhabitants on the cusp of middle class prosperity, who will become active consumers in the coming decades.  That is where future profits will be generated, and US companies need to sell in those markets.  Those new consumers will not choose overpriced US-made goods if there are equivalent but less expensive foreign-made goods made by the same US companies, or foreign competitors.

In order to be competitive in a growing global market, US companies need to keep their costs down to keep their goods affordable, and that means making them where labor is cheap.  Cars and avocados are not different, in this respect. 

So Detroit is doomed, unless workers there accept Mexican wages.  Sorry.  You can't grow avacados in Michigan, either, because that is also too expensive to be price competitive.  Paying avacado farm workers in Michigan more makes this problem worse, not better, for all of the same reasons.

Which part of that whole story is so hard to grasp?  I totally get the transparent motivations behind protectionist policies, I just think they are overly simplistic and short-sighted self interest.  In reality, protectionist policies make things worse instead of better.

Like you, I also want to support the US economy.  I also want good jobs, and high wages, and widespread prosperity for every economic class.  Protectionism accomplishes none of that, unfortunately. 

Protectionism is a seductive lie that politicians tell to unemployed factory workers to get their votes, without mentioning that it would only destroy our economy even further. 

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #603 on: January 17, 2018, 10:18:15 AM »
I would contend that the 99 cent t-shirt from Walmart is an huge exercise in waste.  The externalities are more numerous than anyone here has mentioned.  The lax health, safely and environmental standards in the places where they are produced are coupled with the waste of transportation across to the other side of the globe, in addition to the impact where they are purchased...  We are destroying our environment and using up natural resources much more quickly for a few more pennies in profit and shitty quality.

As I mentioned above, I think this is a legitimate criticism of global capitalism.

It is also unrelated to advancing our short term economic prosperity.  I think free trade is bad for the environment, but it's also good for the economy.  Restricting trade with protectionist policies would hurt US corporate profits, would make goods more expensive, and would ultimately lower US wages.  America would lose out on the coming century of prosperity caused by billions of new middle class consumers coming online to buy our cars and refrigerators.  Other countries would move in to fill the demand.  It doesn't make any sense and basically every economist in the world agrees on this point.  The only people who still argue for protectionism are factory workers left behind by a globally competitive labor force, and the politicians who court them with pretty fantasies.

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #604 on: January 17, 2018, 10:33:47 AM »
I didn't know LL Bean boots were made in the USA, thanks for letting me know. I need work boots.

Just be careful . . . 75% of the goods that LL Bean sells are not made in the US.

craiglepaige

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #605 on: January 17, 2018, 10:37:20 AM »
Sol, as I mentioned before, corporations only care about the bottom line, which your example of the American Auto industry collapsing if all the jobs were to come back to Michigan, makes sense because of this.

My only argument is that Ford/GM can still manufacture their cars here, sell them for the SAME price and STILL make a profit - only not as big as the one they are currently making with cheap labor. 

This won't happen, never ever ever. The higher cost will undoubtedly be passed onto the consumer. I just think it's idiotic for people who were shafted by GM/Ford to still buy their products, but that's not really the point here.

I only hope Tesla can prove us wrong. If they can get their shit together and manufacture their cars in the US, and grow, that will be a nice change of pace.
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craiglepaige

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #606 on: January 17, 2018, 10:38:09 AM »
I didn't know LL Bean boots were made in the USA, thanks for letting me know. I need work boots.

Just be careful . . . 75% of the goods that LL Bean sells are not made in the US.

Thanks. I'll be sure to check.
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PoutineLover

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #607 on: January 17, 2018, 10:48:44 AM »
Sol, as I mentioned before, corporations only care about the bottom line, which your example of the American Auto industry collapsing if all the jobs were to come back to Michigan, makes sense because of this.

My only argument is that Ford/GM can still manufacture their cars here, sell them for the SAME price and STILL make a profit - only not as big as the one they are currently making with cheap labor. 

This won't happen, never ever ever. The higher cost will undoubtedly be passed onto the consumer. I just think it's idiotic for people who were shafted by GM/Ford to still buy their products, but that's not really the point here.

I only hope Tesla can prove us wrong. If they can get their shit together and manufacture their cars in the US, and grow, that will be a nice change of pace.
Even if Tesla makes their cars in the states, the vast majority of the work is going to be done by robots. The human jobs will be for skilled technicians, not unskilled assembly line workers. America should be focusing on the jobs of the next century, not the last one. History tells us that obsolete industries are phased out, and whoever can't see that and adapt is left behind. To ensure future prosperity, you have to be prepared for whats coming and let go of what's gone. This means education, retraining, strategic investments in infrastructure, support for blue collar workers who need new skills, etc.  I read recently that a majority of Republicans think university is BAD for the country. WTF?
(source: http://www.newsweek.com/republicans-believe-college-education-bad-america-donald-trump-media-fake-news-634474)

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #608 on: January 17, 2018, 11:00:12 AM »
Sol, as I mentioned before, corporations only care about the bottom line, which your example of the American Auto industry collapsing if all the jobs were to come back to Michigan, makes sense because of this.

In a competitive global economy, corporations bid down their own profit margins in the same way that stock market investors bid down dividend yields.  As long as someone is willing to make less money than you, they will happily cut ever closer to the bone.  That's how free markets are supposed to work.

So I don't really blame Ford quite as much as you seem to.  They need to make money, and if we cut their profit margin far enough they won't bother anymore.  What investor will volunteer their capital to a company that isn't going to maximize their profit?

Quote
I only hope Tesla can prove us wrong. If they can get their shit together and manufacture their cars in the US, and grow, that will be a nice change of pace.

Tesla is trying the German model of car manufacturing.  They can afford to pay higher wages because they maintain ridiculously high profit margins by selling luxury products.  It works well for BMW, it just doesn't scale well.  Most of the available market is not buying luxury goods.

Tesla also has the potential advantage of having a genuinely more profitable product.  BMW can't pay German wages and still compete with Honda volume on price because the materials and production costs are fundamentally so similar.  EVs are technologically much more simple machines to produce, so theoretically Tesla should eventually be able to sell the same car at the same price, but spend more on wages than on production compared to ICE car makers.  Until a competitor comes along, that is, and uses those savings to lower prices instead of overpaying auto workers.  Isn't the free market great?

JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #609 on: January 17, 2018, 11:03:08 AM »
I'm not saying anyone has a right to employment.  I don't know where people keep getting that idea.

really?

he should have a steady salary at the Ford plant making 50K and benefits.

Should in theory.  No legal right.  Again, I used 50k somewhat arbitrarily because it's a lot better than making minimum wage at Wal-Mart. 

I just bought a pair of LL Bean boots recently.  Hand stitched and made in Maine.  Only $85.  Why can't we make shoes in America?  Why do we have to buy shit Nike shoes made by a poor woman in Southeast Asia who was paid shit wages working 12 hour days and possibly raped in the company bathroom?  Why can't we make iPhones in Wisconsin?  Go ahead and keep posting your articles though.  I keep looking at the 2016 electoral map and laughing my ass off.

The articles I posted were to support my claim that unemployment, despite your crying, is already going down and has been for years.

Enjoy your laughing while it lasts. :-)

craiglepaige

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #610 on: January 17, 2018, 11:45:06 AM »
Sol, as I mentioned before, corporations only care about the bottom line, which your example of the American Auto industry collapsing if all the jobs were to come back to Michigan, makes sense because of this.

In a competitive global economy, corporations bid down their own profit margins in the same way that stock market investors bid down dividend yields.  As long as someone is willing to make less money than you, they will happily cut ever closer to the bone.  That's how free markets are supposed to work.

So I don't really blame Ford quite as much as you seem to.  They need to make money, and if we cut their profit margin far enough they won't bother anymore.  What investor will volunteer their capital to a company that isn't going to maximize their profit?



Sol, we are not talking about a few thousand dollars, we are talking millions/billions. 

For example, in 2009 Ford closed the local engine plant laying off 1100 employees. That same year Ford's CEO, Alan Mulally not only got paid his regular $1.4 million salary, he was compensated with $16.5 million bonus.

YES, I know it's not that simple. But if you are a blue collar worker, having given the company years of labor, and then you get laid off and that same year the CEO gets a $16m bonus, wouldn't you be upset?

Honestly, we are going to go around in circles. Outsiders saying that globalization and labor outsourcing are not bad, haven't been hit by them. I'm not going to go into details but if you weren't a part of it, it's difficult to grasp the damage it did.  And to say, "Well you should had gone to college blah blah blah" is a slap in the face after the fact.

BTW I didn't vote for Trump. I'm just talking from a rustbelt residents' perspective.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 12:01:51 PM by craiglepaige »
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CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #611 on: January 17, 2018, 11:50:30 AM »
Sol, do you support a minimum wage for US workers?

Gin1984

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #612 on: January 17, 2018, 12:10:36 PM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.
My husband and I moved to WNY for grad school, now we are in Iowa with our two kids.  Because THAT IS WHERE THE JOBS WERE.  It is not complicated, it takes work but it is simple.

Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #613 on: January 17, 2018, 12:17:04 PM »
Sol, we are not talking about a few thousand dollars, we are talking millions/billions. 

For example, in 2009 Ford closed the local engine plant laying off 1100 employees. That same year Ford's CEO, Alan Mulally not only got paid his regular $1.4 million salary, he was compensated with $16.5 million bonus.

YES, I know it's not that simple. But if you are a blue collar worker, having given the company years of labor, and then you get laid off and that same year the CEO gets a $16m bonus, wouldn't you be upset?
  That bonus is something like $80 per employee.  Optics might not look great, but when you have a couple hundred thousand employees, there will be people that are laid off at the same time that others are getting hired, and people that are laid off even when the company in general is doing well.  If that's not happening, that pretty much ensures that many more people will be laid off when the economy turns. 

Honestly, we are going to go around in circles. Outsiders saying that globalization and labor outsourcing are not bad, haven't been hit by them. I'm not going to go into details but if you weren't a part of it, it's difficult to grasp the damage it did.  And to say, "Well you should had gone to college blah blah blah" is a slap in the face after the fact.

BTW I didn't vote for Trump. I'm just talking from a rustbelt residents' perspective.
  Globalization and labor outsourcing aren't bad.  It's much easier to see that and appreciate it when you are shielded from its negative effects (as many people on this forum probably are, either because of education and/or because of regulatory protections).  But there are lots of formerly desperately poor people that are now just sort of poor and many previously poor people that are now economically secure all over the globe.  It is very psychologically difficult for people who previously benefited from "frictions", either physical, technological, or regulatory from having to compete with similarly skilled or even much less skilled people from all over the world, but it's psychologically difficult because we've all been so comparatively fortunate up to this point. 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 12:18:52 PM by Jrr85 »

Gin1984

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #614 on: January 17, 2018, 12:19:18 PM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.

Is it society's responsibility to make sure all industries stay relevant?  Horse trainers, buggy manufacturers, VCR repairs have all gone by the wayside.  It happens.  Industry changes.

It can be complicated, absolutely. I'm saying that I think the sense of entitlement is absurd.

We aren't talking about an industry that has become irrelevant,  though, we are talking about one that has moved farther away from it's customers.
I'm not going to argue for keeping the auto makers in Michigan,  though. I still see auto plants in other states. I think it has to do with the UAW and it's shitty practices, at least somewhat.  Unions were good and useful, until they went too far.
Unions went too far, lol.  That is funny.  Why do you think auto workers had decent paychecks?  If not for unions autoworkers would be paid just like any other low skill job.  And the increase in pay did not hurt the auto industry's profit.  Compare the cost of it, to the C-level increases. 

BTDretire

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #615 on: January 17, 2018, 12:25:45 PM »
he should have a steady salary at the Ford plant making 50K and benefits.

"Should"?

You and I seem to have very different ideas about capitalism.  And entitlement.


I think the principle of what CheapScholar is saying should be obvious. Keep jobs here, pay a good wage and have locals support locals.

In paper it should work. Unfortunately corporations don't give a shit about principles and they only care about the bottom line.  So you have all of them sending their manufacturing jobs abroad.

Two things still baffled me, while working in the automotive industry.

A lot of Ford owners won't use a foreign car, as a rental, when their Fords are in the shop. Apparently not knowing that their cars, a lot of them, were built in Mexico.
I recall before Toyota was allowed into Nascar, it was a controversy, because Toyota was a foreign company.
 But the nascar body styles, Ford Fusion was built in Canada, the Chevy Impala in Mexico and the Toyota Camry was built in---- Tennessee!

BTDretire

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #616 on: January 17, 2018, 12:28:23 PM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.

Is it society's responsibility to make sure all industries stay relevant?  Horse trainers, buggy manufacturers, VCR repairs have all gone by the wayside.  It happens.  Industry changes.

It can be complicated, absolutely. I'm saying that I think the sense of entitlement is absurd.

We aren't talking about an industry that has become irrelevant,  though, we are talking about one that has moved farther away from it's customers.
I'm not going to argue for keeping the auto makers in Michigan,  though. I still see auto plants in other states. I think it has to do with the UAW and it's shitty practices, at least somewhat.  Unions were good and useful, until they went too far.
Unions went too far, lol.  That is funny.  Why do you think auto workers had decent paychecks?  If not for unions autoworkers would be paid just like any other low skill job.  And the increase in pay did not hurt the auto industry's profit.  Compare the cost of it, to the C-level increases.

 I once had a GM employee tell me his job was worth about $5 an hr, that was 30 year ago. He included he wouldn't do it for $5, he was a good union employee.

craiglepaige

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #617 on: January 17, 2018, 12:39:55 PM »

Globalization and labor outsourcing aren't bad.  It's much easier to see that and appreciate it when you are shielded from its negative effects (as many people on this forum probably are, either because of education and/or because of regulatory protections).  But there are lots of formerly desperately poor people that are now just sort of poor and many previously poor people that are now economically secure all over the globe.  It is very psychologically difficult for people who previously benefited from "frictions", either physical, technological, or regulatory from having to compete with similarly skilled or even much less skilled people from all over the world, but it's psychologically difficult because we've all been so comparatively fortunate up to this point.


Everytime I call a 1-800 number and I'm given the option to speak with a Spanish speaking rep, I click that option (#2 lol) because they are always helpful and nice.

In a conversation with a Spanish speaking Time Warner representative, I learned she was located in the Dominican Republic and had been working for the company for about 2 years. I asked how she liked it and she said it was the best job she had ever had.

Because we were waiting for the modem to go through its phases, we had some talk time. I asked about her salary and she said she was paid $188 a week. I was surprised at how little that was but then she reminded me of the dollar to peso exchange and told me she was able to raise her two kids, "Como ricos (like the rich)".

Yes, I know the good globalization and outsourcing does.
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Milizard

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #618 on: January 17, 2018, 12:49:31 PM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.
My husband and I moved to WNY for grad school, now we are in Iowa with our two kids.  Because THAT IS WHERE THE JOBS WERE.  It is not complicated, it takes work but it is simple.

It is complicated when you have parents that need your help, or you need help with your own kids.  Normally people don't relocate to a LCOLA for work, but a higher one, with higher costs for care.  Count yourself fortunate if you were able to relocate with worrying about anyone else. Not all of us are that lucky.

Milizard

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #619 on: January 17, 2018, 12:51:53 PM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.

Is it society's responsibility to make sure all industries stay relevant?  Horse trainers, buggy manufacturers, VCR repairs have all gone by the wayside.  It happens.  Industry changes.

It can be complicated, absolutely. I'm saying that I think the sense of entitlement is absurd.

We aren't talking about an industry that has become irrelevant,  though, we are talking about one that has moved farther away from it's customers.
I'm not going to argue for keeping the auto makers in Michigan,  though. I still see auto plants in other states. I think it has to do with the UAW and it's shitty practices, at least somewhat.  Unions were good and useful, until they went too far.
Unions went too far, lol.  That is funny.  Why do you think auto workers had decent paychecks?  If not for unions autoworkers would be paid just like any other low skill job.  And the increase in pay did not hurt the auto industry's profit.  Compare the cost of it, to the C-level increases.
I  wasn't even thinking about the pay aspect of it, but dirty bullying practices that I've heard of from many people.

Gin1984

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #620 on: January 17, 2018, 12:53:44 PM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.
My husband and I moved to WNY for grad school, now we are in Iowa with our two kids.  Because THAT IS WHERE THE JOBS WERE.  It is not complicated, it takes work but it is simple.

It is complicated when you have parents that need your help, or you need help with your own kids.  Normally people don't relocate to a LCOLA for work, but a higher one, with higher costs for care.  Count yourself fortunate if you were able to relocate with worrying about anyone else. Not all of us are that lucky.
Or you stand on your own two feet.  Even if I lived a mile from my mother, she would not be taking care of my children, that is my job as their parent.  I chose to have children that I could afford which includes daycare.  And honestly with the exception of a few cities (like boston which we chose not to move to because of the cost of daycare), daycare is not much cheaper in the LCOL areas because supply is limited. 

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JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #621 on: January 17, 2018, 01:02:53 PM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.
My husband and I moved to WNY for grad school, now we are in Iowa with our two kids.  Because THAT IS WHERE THE JOBS WERE.  It is not complicated, it takes work but it is simple.

It is complicated when you have parents that need your help, or you need help with your own kids.  Normally people don't relocate to a LCOLA for work, but a higher one, with higher costs for care.  Count yourself fortunate if you were able to relocate with worrying about anyone else. Not all of us are that lucky.
Or you stand on your own two feet. Even if I lived a mile from my mother, she would not be taking care of my children, that is my job as their parent.  I chose to have children that I could afford which includes daycare.  And honestly with the exception of a few cities (like boston which we chose not to move to because of the cost of daycare), daycare is not much cheaper in the LCOL areas because supply is limited. 

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Exactly.

Life is made of choices.

craiglepaige

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #622 on: January 17, 2018, 01:05:53 PM »
I'm sometimes baffled by people that say, "I did it, so why can't you?

I'm excusing myself from the conversation. I didn't vote for Trump (nor Hillary) so I don't really have any reason to be in this thread ;)
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Milizard

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #623 on: January 17, 2018, 01:05:57 PM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.
My husband and I moved to WNY for grad school, now we are in Iowa with our two kids.  Because THAT IS WHERE THE JOBS WERE.  It is not complicated, it takes work but it is simple.

It is complicated when you have parents that need your help, or you need help with your own kids.  Normally people don't relocate to a LCOLA for work, but a higher one, with higher costs for care.  Count yourself fortunate if you were able to relocate with worrying about anyone else. Not all of us are that lucky.
Or you stand on your own two feet.  Even if I lived a mile from my mother, she would not be taking care of my children, that is my job as their parent.  I chose to have children that I could afford which includes daycare.  And honestly with the exception of a few cities (like boston which we chose not to move to because of the cost of daycare), daycare is not much cheaper in the LCOL areas because supply is limited. 

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Well, if you were still on the old message board, you'd be familiar with my story, but I will say that it has been light years easier and cheaper to get care for my kids than for my mother.

Milizard

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #624 on: January 17, 2018, 01:06:51 PM »
I'm sometimes baffled by people that say, "I did it, so why can't you?

I'm excusing myself from the conversation. I didn't vote for Trump (nor Hillary) so I don't really have any reason to be in this thread ;)

I  know, right? And I did vote for Hillary.

ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #625 on: January 17, 2018, 01:11:56 PM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.

Is it society's responsibility to make sure all industries stay relevant?  Horse trainers, buggy manufacturers, VCR repairs have all gone by the wayside.  It happens.  Industry changes.

It can be complicated, absolutely. I'm saying that I think the sense of entitlement is absurd.

We aren't talking about an industry that has become irrelevant,  though, we are talking about one that has moved farther away from it's customers.
I'm not going to argue for keeping the auto makers in Michigan,  though. I still see auto plants in other states. I think it has to do with the UAW and it's shitty practices, at least somewhat.  Unions were good and useful, until they went too far.
Unions went too far, lol.  That is funny.  Why do you think auto workers had decent paychecks?  If not for unions autoworkers would be paid just like any other low skill job.  And the increase in pay did not hurt the auto industry's profit.  Compare the cost of it, to the C-level increases.

they had decent paychecks for a time, because about the time John got sick of buying Ford's union built junk and bought a chevy, Tom got sick of Chevy's union built junk and bought a Dodge, and Jerry got sick of Dodge union built junk and bought a Ford. During all this, the big 3 could put up with the UAW's nonsense and ridulous demands and pay the floor sweeper 100K, make a profit, and not improve thier product.

Then toyota and Honda came along. When someone bought a honda or Toyota, they didn't end up with a bad taste in thier mouth and kept buying them.  the union, in thier infinite greed, wouldn't dial back thier parasitic bleeding of thier hosts... and killed off all but three of the american automakers.


JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #626 on: January 17, 2018, 01:12:21 PM »
I'm sometimes baffled by people that say, "I did it, so why can't you?

I'm excusing myself from the conversation. I didn't vote for Trump (nor Hillary) so I don't really have any reason to be in this thread ;)

I'm equally baffled by people that say "all our jobs are gone" but they refuse to consider other options.

Gin1984

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #627 on: January 17, 2018, 01:20:57 PM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.

Is it society's responsibility to make sure all industries stay relevant?  Horse trainers, buggy manufacturers, VCR repairs have all gone by the wayside.  It happens.  Industry changes.

It can be complicated, absolutely. I'm saying that I think the sense of entitlement is absurd.

We aren't talking about an industry that has become irrelevant,  though, we are talking about one that has moved farther away from it's customers.
I'm not going to argue for keeping the auto makers in Michigan,  though. I still see auto plants in other states. I think it has to do with the UAW and it's shitty practices, at least somewhat.  Unions were good and useful, until they went too far.
Unions went too far, lol.  That is funny.  Why do you think auto workers had decent paychecks?  If not for unions autoworkers would be paid just like any other low skill job.  And the increase in pay did not hurt the auto industry's profit.  Compare the cost of it, to the C-level increases.

they had decent paychecks for a time, because about the time John got sick of buying Ford's union built junk and bought a chevy, Tom got sick of Chevy's union built junk and bought a Dodge, and Jerry got sick of Dodge union built junk and bought a Ford. During all this, the big 3 could put up with the UAW's nonsense and ridulous demands and pay the floor sweeper 100K, make a profit, and not improve thier product.

Then toyota and Honda came along. When someone bought a honda or Toyota, they didn't end up with a bad taste in thier mouth and kept buying them.  the union, in thier infinite greed, wouldn't dial back thier parasitic bleeding of thier hosts... and killed off all but three of the american automakers.
And how much do the C-level executives earn?  Or are you just pulling things out of your ass, like you did with the salary you posted?

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #628 on: January 17, 2018, 02:32:04 PM »
I'm not saying anyone has a right to employment.  I don't know where people keep getting that idea.

really?

he should have a steady salary at the Ford plant making 50K and benefits.

Should in theory.  No legal right.  Again, I used 50k somewhat arbitrarily because it's a lot better than making minimum wage at Wal-Mart. 

I just bought a pair of LL Bean boots recently.  Hand stitched and made in Maine.  Only $85.  Why can't we make shoes in America?  Why do we have to buy shit Nike shoes made by a poor woman in Southeast Asia who was paid shit wages working 12 hour days and possibly raped in the company bathroom?  Why can't we make iPhones in Wisconsin?  Go ahead and keep posting your articles though.  I keep looking at the 2016 electoral map and laughing my ass off.

Because it's estimated the iPhone would cost roughly 2K if made strictly in the United States.
https://www.marketplace.org/2014/05/20/business/ive-always-wondered/how-much-would-all-american-iphone-cost

I looked into this years ago as I had the same question. One thing to note as well in the analysis. They say "labor’s not the most significant financial advantage to manufacturing the iPhone in China."

Of course this really drives home Sol's point about jacking up the price and running into obvious difficulties now selling the product. You would literally price the iPhone right out of the market. Samsung and others would love to see Apple move iPhone production to the US. But it isn't going to happen, because they aren't stupid.

CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #629 on: January 17, 2018, 03:27:27 PM »
I'm not saying anyone has a right to employment.  I don't know where people keep getting that idea.

really?

he should have a steady salary at the Ford plant making 50K and benefits.

Should in theory.  No legal right.  Again, I used 50k somewhat arbitrarily because it's a lot better than making minimum wage at Wal-Mart. 

I just bought a pair of LL Bean boots recently.  Hand stitched and made in Maine.  Only $85.  Why can't we make shoes in America?  Why do we have to buy shit Nike shoes made by a poor woman in Southeast Asia who was paid shit wages working 12 hour days and possibly raped in the company bathroom?  Why can't we make iPhones in Wisconsin?  Go ahead and keep posting your articles though.  I keep looking at the 2016 electoral map and laughing my ass off.

Because it's estimated the iPhone would cost roughly 2K if made strictly in the United States.
https://www.marketplace.org/2014/05/20/business/ive-always-wondered/how-much-would-all-american-iphone-cost

I looked into this years ago as I had the same question. One thing to note as well in the analysis. They say "labor’s not the most significant financial advantage to manufacturing the iPhone in China."

Of course this really drives home Sol's point about jacking up the price and running into obvious difficulties now selling the product. You would literally price the iPhone right out of the market. Samsung and others would love to see Apple move iPhone production to the US. But it isn't going to happen, because they aren't stupid.

Right, but under protectionism Samsung would also have to produce in the US.  And the entire premise of American School economics is that wages rise and therefore more people can afford items they value.  Maybe iPhones are underpriced (due to unfair and unsafe working conditions in Asia) and we're tethered to consumerist bullshit?  Still waiting to hear if sol supports minimum wage laws in the United States or if he's an Ayn Rand libertarian. 

ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #630 on: January 17, 2018, 03:44:16 PM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.

Is it society's responsibility to make sure all industries stay relevant?  Horse trainers, buggy manufacturers, VCR repairs have all gone by the wayside.  It happens.  Industry changes.

It can be complicated, absolutely. I'm saying that I think the sense of entitlement is absurd.

We aren't talking about an industry that has become irrelevant,  though, we are talking about one that has moved farther away from it's customers.
I'm not going to argue for keeping the auto makers in Michigan,  though. I still see auto plants in other states. I think it has to do with the UAW and it's shitty practices, at least somewhat.  Unions were good and useful, until they went too far.
Unions went too far, lol.  That is funny.  Why do you think auto workers had decent paychecks?  If not for unions autoworkers would be paid just like any other low skill job.  And the increase in pay did not hurt the auto industry's profit.  Compare the cost of it, to the C-level increases.

they had decent paychecks for a time, because about the time John got sick of buying Ford's union built junk and bought a chevy, Tom got sick of Chevy's union built junk and bought a Dodge, and Jerry got sick of Dodge union built junk and bought a Ford. During all this, the big 3 could put up with the UAW's nonsense and ridulous demands and pay the floor sweeper 100K, make a profit, and not improve thier product.

Then toyota and Honda came along. When someone bought a honda or Toyota, they didn't end up with a bad taste in thier mouth and kept buying them.  the union, in thier infinite greed, wouldn't dial back thier parasitic bleeding of thier hosts... and killed off all but three of the american automakers.
And how much do the C-level executives earn?  Or are you just pulling things out of your ass, like you did with the salary you posted?

I shouldn't bother addressing this, as your response is non-sequitor and, I think, you may be confusing me with someone else... but I can't help myself.

Sorry, the $100K janitor is really a $270K per year janitor who is a public employee union in LA. Public employee unions are another level of corrupt and dispicable, so I won't go into that any further here.

So, How many of these 'C level executives' do you think there really are in a company like GM? Not a whole lot, I'd think. A conversation about whether some exec deserves 500K is one a company should have when it struggles, and i'll bet that  those guys did get a haircut or fired during the lean 80's, 90's, and early 2000's.

But Consider the sheer numbers of hourly employees (there are 225,000 according to Wikipedia right now). Paying them lavishly can run a company under pretty quick, when the company is facing slowing sales. With that many employees, every $1 per hour paid, on straight time alone, is nearly 500million dollars... let alone the social security taxes, etc that the employer has to pay.

Throw in the games unions play that cost productivity for zero gain for the worker, and you're talking huge quantities of money.

Read my last post closer. You will see I clearly laid some of the blame at the feet of the executives who didn't innovate or see fit to improve the quality of what they sold. That does NOT absolve the UAW of it's role in thier own demise, and unions, going forward, must honestly assess thier relationship to thier host companies if they want to survive. Your attitude, of unions can do no wrong, will just ensure they demise.

I want to boil this down concisely so it fits in everyone's attention span: Unions are not soley to blame for the demise of American auto manufacturing, but thier demands became especially painful during the lean years of the late 70s through mid 2000s, and accelerated the bleeding and outsourcing. unions must accept that globalisation is here to stay, and they may need to change the way they do things if they want to continue to exist.

Psychstache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #631 on: January 17, 2018, 04:00:24 PM »
Why would a foreign company like Samsung have to produce their products in the United States?

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CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #632 on: January 17, 2018, 04:04:50 PM »
Why would a foreign company like Samsung have to produce their products in the United States?

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The tariffs apply to goods entering the country.  The HQ of the company isn't so relevant. 

MasterStache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #633 on: January 17, 2018, 04:06:10 PM »
I'm not saying anyone has a right to employment.  I don't know where people keep getting that idea.

really?

he should have a steady salary at the Ford plant making 50K and benefits.

Should in theory.  No legal right.  Again, I used 50k somewhat arbitrarily because it's a lot better than making minimum wage at Wal-Mart. 

I just bought a pair of LL Bean boots recently.  Hand stitched and made in Maine.  Only $85.  Why can't we make shoes in America?  Why do we have to buy shit Nike shoes made by a poor woman in Southeast Asia who was paid shit wages working 12 hour days and possibly raped in the company bathroom?  Why can't we make iPhones in Wisconsin?  Go ahead and keep posting your articles though.  I keep looking at the 2016 electoral map and laughing my ass off.

Because it's estimated the iPhone would cost roughly 2K if made strictly in the United States.
https://www.marketplace.org/2014/05/20/business/ive-always-wondered/how-much-would-all-american-iphone-cost

I looked into this years ago as I had the same question. One thing to note as well in the analysis. They say "labor’s not the most significant financial advantage to manufacturing the iPhone in China."

Of course this really drives home Sol's point about jacking up the price and running into obvious difficulties now selling the product. You would literally price the iPhone right out of the market. Samsung and others would love to see Apple move iPhone production to the US. But it isn't going to happen, because they aren't stupid.

Right, but under protectionism Samsung would also have to produce in the US.  And the entire premise of American School economics is that wages rise and therefore more people can afford items they value.  Maybe iPhones are underpriced (due to unfair and unsafe working conditions in Asia) and we're tethered to consumerist bullshit?  Still waiting to hear if sol supports minimum wage laws in the United States or if he's an Ayn Rand libertarian.

LMAO, no that's not how it works. Samsung and Apple will not produce in the US because no one is going to purchase a 2K phone. Try reading the article. It answered your question.

CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #634 on: January 17, 2018, 04:07:13 PM »
Unions are often greedy and inflate wages above market price.  That's wrong and stupid.  But it doesn't itself mean free trade is good economic policy.  The two issues are rather separate. 

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #635 on: January 17, 2018, 04:14:27 PM »
Actually that IS how protectionism works.  Foreign companies don't get to dump foreign made products in the country.  You don't have to like the theory or believe in it, but that IS how it works. 

As to whether or not people would pay 2k for an iPhone, I'm think they would.  But who cares anyway. I'd rather have one for $700.  So what if we have 10% U6 unenploymemt in this country, millions on food stamps, and huge consumer debt that fills landfills with last year's iPhones and packaging.  And who cares if the lady who made my iPhone was paid peanuts and worked 12 hour days.  Fuck her, I want a $700 iPhone. 

CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #636 on: January 17, 2018, 04:29:46 PM »
From HuffPost;

The raw materials mined in Congo are then sent to factories in China — most notably, the Foxconn plant in Shenzhen. The factory has been described by local media as a “labor camp,” in which teenage students are sought out for employment and are forced to work more than double or even triple the overtime limit (36 hours a month under China’s labor laws), and workers are routinely uncompensated for injuries suffered on the job. Seventeen workers attempted suicide, and 14 died jumping from the roof of the building in 2010. The company responded by putting anti-suicide nets around the building, and forced employees to sign agreements stating that their employer would be exempt from lawsuits brought by family members in the event of their suicide. Foxconn claims to have raised workers’ wages to $298 per month, but workers say those pay raises never came.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/carl-gibson/how-the-iphone_b_5800262.html

Whatevs, got me a deal on my phone! 

JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #637 on: January 17, 2018, 04:45:16 PM »
Actually that IS how protectionism works.  Foreign companies don't get to dump foreign made products in the country.  You don't have to like the theory or believe in it, but that IS how it works. 

As to whether or not people would pay 2k for an iPhone, I'm think they would.  But who cares anyway. I'd rather have one for $700.  So what if we have 10% U6 unenploymemt in this country, millions on food stamps, and huge consumer debt that fills landfills with last year's iPhones and packaging.  And who cares if the lady who made my iPhone was paid peanuts and worked 12 hour days.  Fuck her, I want a $700 iPhone.

We've been under 10% U6 for over two years now, but lets not let facts get in the way of a rational discussion.

CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #638 on: January 17, 2018, 04:55:16 PM »
Sorry, 10% in parts of the country.  Like Michigan.  But screw us, right?

Tweet 20 minutes ago:

Donald J. Trump

During the campaign, I promised to MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN by bringing businesses and jobs back to our country. I am very proud to see companies like Chrysler moving operations from Mexico to Michigan where there are so many great American workers!

JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #639 on: January 17, 2018, 05:30:33 PM »
Sorry, 10% in parts of the country.  Like Michigan.  But screw us, right?

Tweet 20 minutes ago:

Donald J. Trump

During the campaign, I promised to MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN by bringing businesses and jobs back to our country. I am very proud to see companies like Chrysler moving operations from Mexico to Michigan where there are so many great American workers!

12.6% in Alaska, 11.9% in New Mexico, 11.4% in Nevada..and yes, if you round up then Michigan can be at 10% too.

Apple is bringing many billions of $ into the US, which is nice.

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #640 on: January 17, 2018, 05:51:48 PM »
Actually that IS how protectionism works.  Foreign companies don't get to dump foreign made products in the country.  You don't have to like the theory or believe in it, but that IS how it works. 

As to whether or not people would pay 2k for an iPhone, I'm think they would.  But who cares anyway. I'd rather have one for $700.  So what if we have 10% U6 unenploymemt in this country, millions on food stamps, and huge consumer debt that fills landfills with last year's iPhones and packaging.  And who cares if the lady who made my iPhone was paid peanuts and worked 12 hour days.  Fuck her, I want a $700 iPhone.

I said nothing of how protectionism works
 Sure some folks would fork over 2k. But not enough to justify moving an entire production line to the states. I am sure they are perfectly content making in China and Americans will enjoy purchasing at a deeply discounted rate. Amazing how we all benefit. Ain't life grand 😁

retiringearly

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #641 on: January 20, 2018, 07:08:29 PM »

bacchi

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #642 on: January 20, 2018, 08:35:54 PM »
<snip>

The streets are public and there ain't no litmus test for marching.

MasterStache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #643 on: January 21, 2018, 07:02:23 AM »
<snip>

The streets are public and there ain't no litmus test for marching.

Nor is it just women, nor is it purely about women "issues." Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #644 on: January 21, 2018, 09:35:04 AM »
Actually that IS how protectionism works.  Foreign companies don't get to dump foreign made products in the country.  You don't have to like the theory or believe in it, but that IS how it works. 

As to whether or not people would pay 2k for an iPhone, I'm think they would.  But who cares anyway. I'd rather have one for $700.  So what if we have 10% U6 unenploymemt in this country, millions on food stamps, and huge consumer debt that fills landfills with last year's iPhones and packaging.  And who cares if the lady who made my iPhone was paid peanuts and worked 12 hour days.  Fuck her, I want a $700 iPhone.

So you think the person buying a $700 iPhone is the one saying fuck the worker, and not the person that wants to prevent her from having her job?

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #645 on: January 22, 2018, 10:08:55 AM »
Sol, as I mentioned before, corporations only care about the bottom line, which your example of the American Auto industry collapsing if all the jobs were to come back to Michigan, makes sense because of this.

My only argument is that Ford/GM can still manufacture their cars here, sell them for the SAME price and STILL make a profit - only not as big as the one they are currently making with cheap labor. 

This won't happen, never ever ever. The higher cost will undoubtedly be passed onto the consumer. I just think it's idiotic for people who were shafted by GM/Ford to still buy their products, but that's not really the point here.

I only hope Tesla can prove us wrong. If they can get their shit together and manufacture their cars in the US, and grow, that will be a nice change of pace.
I'm not an expert here, but I've heard GM/Ford mostly make SUVs and Trucks here, which are high profit margin vehicles.  Most of their smaller cars are made in Mexico.  This is only possible because of American consumer suckas.  Few foreign companies make SUVs and Trucks as large as we do here, so there's less competition.

It's really been a twist to me, Republicans were rarely protectionist in the still recent past. 

CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #646 on: January 22, 2018, 05:18:59 PM »
More good news.  My President just placed tariffs on solar panels and washing machines, which were being produced in China.  But now even Whirlpool says this will result in more jobs in the US, and that consumers and workers will win.  http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/22/news/economy/us-tariff-washing-machines-solar-cells/index.html?iid=hp-toplead-dom

NAFTA comes next!

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #647 on: January 22, 2018, 05:21:47 PM »
consumers and workers will win.

You do realize that these two groups are on opposite sides of the offshoring debate, right?  What's good for workers is bad for consumers (namely, protectionist policies that drive up the prices for goods).

CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #648 on: January 22, 2018, 05:47:13 PM »
consumers and workers will win.

You do realize that these two groups are on opposite sides of the offshoring debate, right?  What's good for workers is bad for consumers (namely, protectionist policies that drive up the prices for goods).

Disagree.  Protectionism works because it keeps money circulating in our economy, provides our workers with steady reliable and fair income. Just my opinion.  I'd rather pay more for my Ford knowing people near me have jobs.

Sol, you support minimum wage in the US?

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #649 on: January 22, 2018, 06:12:56 PM »
Sol, you support minimum wage in the US?

Sometimes, yes. 

The difference between a minimum wage (for US workers living in the US) and a protectionist trade policy is that protectionism disadvantages american companies compared to international ones.  A minimum wage is like the idealized best case version of protectionism, because it increases the cost of goods (from having to pay higher wages) at the same time and place that it increases the available customer supply (from giving consumers more wages to buy stuff with).  That works out okay in places where all of the money stays in the same economy and there is no outside competition for production or labor.

Global trade isn't like that all.  If an american company has to pay higher labor costs, there is an international labor market that will undercut them and sell identical goods cheaper, and there is an international consumer market full of people who are not making those new higher wages and so can't afford the newly more expensive US goods.  This is why protectionism undercuts the country that does it.  It disadvantages US corporations, and gives up market share to foreign competitors.

We've covered this ground before.  International trade has absolutely been the magical key to unlocking the power of capitalism.  It is the reason why first world nations are as prosperous as they are.  The world would be a very different place if every country could only make and buy their own goods.  It would not be a better world.

And before you go off the deep end on me, I recognize that there are necessary protections in this race to the bottom.  Most people don't want cheaper electronics if it means buying them from a country that uses slavery or abused children to staff their factories.  But it DOES make goods cheaper to violate human rights like that, and we need to recognize that refusing to buy goods from slavery or child abuse legitimately increases our prices on the consumer end.  As long as everyone in the global economy agrees with us, those places go out of business.  If a large enough piece of the international market doesn't mind buying ipods manufactured by abducted children, then those cheap goods will continue to be produced and you need to decide whether or not you want to pay more to avoid them.  If you are prosperous, you may have that choice.  Not every consumer in the global marketplace shares your luck.

In the case of US manufacturing jobs, where wages are 10x or 25x higher than they are in places like China or Vietnam, US corporations would be instantly noncompetitive in the global marketplace, in most industries.  You can't build an air conditioner in Manhattan at the same price that you can build it in Mexico City, and that difference is the reason why both of those places can profit off of that transaction.  If you tried to force Manhattan to build all of its own air conditioners, you would quickly discover five different reasons why that's not going to work out.