Author Topic: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?  (Read 110255 times)

Gin1984

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #600 on: January 17, 2018, 12:10:36 PM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.
My husband and I moved to WNY for grad school, now we are in Iowa with our two kids.  Because THAT IS WHERE THE JOBS WERE.  It is not complicated, it takes work but it is simple.

Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #601 on: January 17, 2018, 12:17:04 PM »
Sol, we are not talking about a few thousand dollars, we are talking millions/billions. 

For example, in 2009 Ford closed the local engine plant laying off 1100 employees. That same year Ford's CEO, Alan Mulally not only got paid his regular $1.4 million salary, he was compensated with $16.5 million bonus.

YES, I know it's not that simple. But if you are a blue collar worker, having given the company years of labor, and then you get laid off and that same year the CEO gets a $16m bonus, wouldn't you be upset?
  That bonus is something like $80 per employee.  Optics might not look great, but when you have a couple hundred thousand employees, there will be people that are laid off at the same time that others are getting hired, and people that are laid off even when the company in general is doing well.  If that's not happening, that pretty much ensures that many more people will be laid off when the economy turns. 

Honestly, we are going to go around in circles. Outsiders saying that globalization and labor outsourcing are not bad, haven't been hit by them. I'm not going to go into details but if you weren't a part of it, it's difficult to grasp the damage it did.  And to say, "Well you should had gone to college blah blah blah" is a slap in the face after the fact.

BTW I didn't vote for Trump. I'm just talking from a rustbelt residents' perspective.
  Globalization and labor outsourcing aren't bad.  It's much easier to see that and appreciate it when you are shielded from its negative effects (as many people on this forum probably are, either because of education and/or because of regulatory protections).  But there are lots of formerly desperately poor people that are now just sort of poor and many previously poor people that are now economically secure all over the globe.  It is very psychologically difficult for people who previously benefited from "frictions", either physical, technological, or regulatory from having to compete with similarly skilled or even much less skilled people from all over the world, but it's psychologically difficult because we've all been so comparatively fortunate up to this point. 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 12:18:52 PM by Jrr85 »

Gin1984

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #602 on: January 17, 2018, 12:19:18 PM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.

Is it society's responsibility to make sure all industries stay relevant?  Horse trainers, buggy manufacturers, VCR repairs have all gone by the wayside.  It happens.  Industry changes.

It can be complicated, absolutely. I'm saying that I think the sense of entitlement is absurd.

We aren't talking about an industry that has become irrelevant,  though, we are talking about one that has moved farther away from it's customers.
I'm not going to argue for keeping the auto makers in Michigan,  though. I still see auto plants in other states. I think it has to do with the UAW and it's shitty practices, at least somewhat.  Unions were good and useful, until they went too far.
Unions went too far, lol.  That is funny.  Why do you think auto workers had decent paychecks?  If not for unions autoworkers would be paid just like any other low skill job.  And the increase in pay did not hurt the auto industry's profit.  Compare the cost of it, to the C-level increases. 

BTDretire

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #603 on: January 17, 2018, 12:25:45 PM »
he should have a steady salary at the Ford plant making 50K and benefits.

"Should"?

You and I seem to have very different ideas about capitalism.  And entitlement.


I think the principle of what CheapScholar is saying should be obvious. Keep jobs here, pay a good wage and have locals support locals.

In paper it should work. Unfortunately corporations don't give a shit about principles and they only care about the bottom line.  So you have all of them sending their manufacturing jobs abroad.

Two things still baffled me, while working in the automotive industry.

A lot of Ford owners won't use a foreign car, as a rental, when their Fords are in the shop. Apparently not knowing that their cars, a lot of them, were built in Mexico.
I recall before Toyota was allowed into Nascar, it was a controversy, because Toyota was a foreign company.
 But the nascar body styles, Ford Fusion was built in Canada, the Chevy Impala in Mexico and the Toyota Camry was built in---- Tennessee!

BTDretire

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #604 on: January 17, 2018, 12:28:23 PM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.

Is it society's responsibility to make sure all industries stay relevant?  Horse trainers, buggy manufacturers, VCR repairs have all gone by the wayside.  It happens.  Industry changes.

It can be complicated, absolutely. I'm saying that I think the sense of entitlement is absurd.

We aren't talking about an industry that has become irrelevant,  though, we are talking about one that has moved farther away from it's customers.
I'm not going to argue for keeping the auto makers in Michigan,  though. I still see auto plants in other states. I think it has to do with the UAW and it's shitty practices, at least somewhat.  Unions were good and useful, until they went too far.
Unions went too far, lol.  That is funny.  Why do you think auto workers had decent paychecks?  If not for unions autoworkers would be paid just like any other low skill job.  And the increase in pay did not hurt the auto industry's profit.  Compare the cost of it, to the C-level increases.

 I once had a GM employee tell me his job was worth about $5 an hr, that was 30 year ago. He included he wouldn't do it for $5, he was a good union employee.

Milizard

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #605 on: January 17, 2018, 12:49:31 PM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.
My husband and I moved to WNY for grad school, now we are in Iowa with our two kids.  Because THAT IS WHERE THE JOBS WERE.  It is not complicated, it takes work but it is simple.

It is complicated when you have parents that need your help, or you need help with your own kids.  Normally people don't relocate to a LCOLA for work, but a higher one, with higher costs for care.  Count yourself fortunate if you were able to relocate with worrying about anyone else. Not all of us are that lucky.

Milizard

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #606 on: January 17, 2018, 12:51:53 PM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.

Is it society's responsibility to make sure all industries stay relevant?  Horse trainers, buggy manufacturers, VCR repairs have all gone by the wayside.  It happens.  Industry changes.

It can be complicated, absolutely. I'm saying that I think the sense of entitlement is absurd.

We aren't talking about an industry that has become irrelevant,  though, we are talking about one that has moved farther away from it's customers.
I'm not going to argue for keeping the auto makers in Michigan,  though. I still see auto plants in other states. I think it has to do with the UAW and it's shitty practices, at least somewhat.  Unions were good and useful, until they went too far.
Unions went too far, lol.  That is funny.  Why do you think auto workers had decent paychecks?  If not for unions autoworkers would be paid just like any other low skill job.  And the increase in pay did not hurt the auto industry's profit.  Compare the cost of it, to the C-level increases.
I  wasn't even thinking about the pay aspect of it, but dirty bullying practices that I've heard of from many people.

Gin1984

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #607 on: January 17, 2018, 12:53:44 PM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.
My husband and I moved to WNY for grad school, now we are in Iowa with our two kids.  Because THAT IS WHERE THE JOBS WERE.  It is not complicated, it takes work but it is simple.

It is complicated when you have parents that need your help, or you need help with your own kids.  Normally people don't relocate to a LCOLA for work, but a higher one, with higher costs for care.  Count yourself fortunate if you were able to relocate with worrying about anyone else. Not all of us are that lucky.
Or you stand on your own two feet.  Even if I lived a mile from my mother, she would not be taking care of my children, that is my job as their parent.  I chose to have children that I could afford which includes daycare.  And honestly with the exception of a few cities (like boston which we chose not to move to because of the cost of daycare), daycare is not much cheaper in the LCOL areas because supply is limited. 

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JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #608 on: January 17, 2018, 01:02:53 PM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.
My husband and I moved to WNY for grad school, now we are in Iowa with our two kids.  Because THAT IS WHERE THE JOBS WERE.  It is not complicated, it takes work but it is simple.

It is complicated when you have parents that need your help, or you need help with your own kids.  Normally people don't relocate to a LCOLA for work, but a higher one, with higher costs for care.  Count yourself fortunate if you were able to relocate with worrying about anyone else. Not all of us are that lucky.
Or you stand on your own two feet. Even if I lived a mile from my mother, she would not be taking care of my children, that is my job as their parent.  I chose to have children that I could afford which includes daycare.  And honestly with the exception of a few cities (like boston which we chose not to move to because of the cost of daycare), daycare is not much cheaper in the LCOL areas because supply is limited. 

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Exactly.

Life is made of choices.

Milizard

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #609 on: January 17, 2018, 01:05:57 PM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.
My husband and I moved to WNY for grad school, now we are in Iowa with our two kids.  Because THAT IS WHERE THE JOBS WERE.  It is not complicated, it takes work but it is simple.

It is complicated when you have parents that need your help, or you need help with your own kids.  Normally people don't relocate to a LCOLA for work, but a higher one, with higher costs for care.  Count yourself fortunate if you were able to relocate with worrying about anyone else. Not all of us are that lucky.
Or you stand on your own two feet.  Even if I lived a mile from my mother, she would not be taking care of my children, that is my job as their parent.  I chose to have children that I could afford which includes daycare.  And honestly with the exception of a few cities (like boston which we chose not to move to because of the cost of daycare), daycare is not much cheaper in the LCOL areas because supply is limited. 

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Well, if you were still on the old message board, you'd be familiar with my story, but I will say that it has been light years easier and cheaper to get care for my kids than for my mother.

Milizard

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #610 on: January 17, 2018, 01:06:51 PM »
I'm sometimes baffled by people that say, "I did it, so why can't you?

I'm excusing myself from the conversation. I didn't vote for Trump (nor Hillary) so I don't really have any reason to be in this thread ;)

I  know, right? And I did vote for Hillary.

ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #611 on: January 17, 2018, 01:11:56 PM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.

Is it society's responsibility to make sure all industries stay relevant?  Horse trainers, buggy manufacturers, VCR repairs have all gone by the wayside.  It happens.  Industry changes.

It can be complicated, absolutely. I'm saying that I think the sense of entitlement is absurd.

We aren't talking about an industry that has become irrelevant,  though, we are talking about one that has moved farther away from it's customers.
I'm not going to argue for keeping the auto makers in Michigan,  though. I still see auto plants in other states. I think it has to do with the UAW and it's shitty practices, at least somewhat.  Unions were good and useful, until they went too far.
Unions went too far, lol.  That is funny.  Why do you think auto workers had decent paychecks?  If not for unions autoworkers would be paid just like any other low skill job.  And the increase in pay did not hurt the auto industry's profit.  Compare the cost of it, to the C-level increases.

they had decent paychecks for a time, because about the time John got sick of buying Ford's union built junk and bought a chevy, Tom got sick of Chevy's union built junk and bought a Dodge, and Jerry got sick of Dodge union built junk and bought a Ford. During all this, the big 3 could put up with the UAW's nonsense and ridulous demands and pay the floor sweeper 100K, make a profit, and not improve thier product.

Then toyota and Honda came along. When someone bought a honda or Toyota, they didn't end up with a bad taste in thier mouth and kept buying them.  the union, in thier infinite greed, wouldn't dial back thier parasitic bleeding of thier hosts... and killed off all but three of the american automakers.


JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #612 on: January 17, 2018, 01:12:21 PM »
I'm sometimes baffled by people that say, "I did it, so why can't you?

I'm excusing myself from the conversation. I didn't vote for Trump (nor Hillary) so I don't really have any reason to be in this thread ;)

I'm equally baffled by people that say "all our jobs are gone" but they refuse to consider other options.

Gin1984

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #613 on: January 17, 2018, 01:20:57 PM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.

Is it society's responsibility to make sure all industries stay relevant?  Horse trainers, buggy manufacturers, VCR repairs have all gone by the wayside.  It happens.  Industry changes.

It can be complicated, absolutely. I'm saying that I think the sense of entitlement is absurd.

We aren't talking about an industry that has become irrelevant,  though, we are talking about one that has moved farther away from it's customers.
I'm not going to argue for keeping the auto makers in Michigan,  though. I still see auto plants in other states. I think it has to do with the UAW and it's shitty practices, at least somewhat.  Unions were good and useful, until they went too far.
Unions went too far, lol.  That is funny.  Why do you think auto workers had decent paychecks?  If not for unions autoworkers would be paid just like any other low skill job.  And the increase in pay did not hurt the auto industry's profit.  Compare the cost of it, to the C-level increases.

they had decent paychecks for a time, because about the time John got sick of buying Ford's union built junk and bought a chevy, Tom got sick of Chevy's union built junk and bought a Dodge, and Jerry got sick of Dodge union built junk and bought a Ford. During all this, the big 3 could put up with the UAW's nonsense and ridulous demands and pay the floor sweeper 100K, make a profit, and not improve thier product.

Then toyota and Honda came along. When someone bought a honda or Toyota, they didn't end up with a bad taste in thier mouth and kept buying them.  the union, in thier infinite greed, wouldn't dial back thier parasitic bleeding of thier hosts... and killed off all but three of the american automakers.
And how much do the C-level executives earn?  Or are you just pulling things out of your ass, like you did with the salary you posted?

MasterStache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #614 on: January 17, 2018, 02:32:04 PM »
I'm not saying anyone has a right to employment.  I don't know where people keep getting that idea.

really?

he should have a steady salary at the Ford plant making 50K and benefits.

Should in theory.  No legal right.  Again, I used 50k somewhat arbitrarily because it's a lot better than making minimum wage at Wal-Mart. 

I just bought a pair of LL Bean boots recently.  Hand stitched and made in Maine.  Only $85.  Why can't we make shoes in America?  Why do we have to buy shit Nike shoes made by a poor woman in Southeast Asia who was paid shit wages working 12 hour days and possibly raped in the company bathroom?  Why can't we make iPhones in Wisconsin?  Go ahead and keep posting your articles though.  I keep looking at the 2016 electoral map and laughing my ass off.

Because it's estimated the iPhone would cost roughly 2K if made strictly in the United States.
https://www.marketplace.org/2014/05/20/business/ive-always-wondered/how-much-would-all-american-iphone-cost

I looked into this years ago as I had the same question. One thing to note as well in the analysis. They say "labor’s not the most significant financial advantage to manufacturing the iPhone in China."

Of course this really drives home Sol's point about jacking up the price and running into obvious difficulties now selling the product. You would literally price the iPhone right out of the market. Samsung and others would love to see Apple move iPhone production to the US. But it isn't going to happen, because they aren't stupid.

CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #615 on: January 17, 2018, 03:27:27 PM »
I'm not saying anyone has a right to employment.  I don't know where people keep getting that idea.

really?

he should have a steady salary at the Ford plant making 50K and benefits.

Should in theory.  No legal right.  Again, I used 50k somewhat arbitrarily because it's a lot better than making minimum wage at Wal-Mart. 

I just bought a pair of LL Bean boots recently.  Hand stitched and made in Maine.  Only $85.  Why can't we make shoes in America?  Why do we have to buy shit Nike shoes made by a poor woman in Southeast Asia who was paid shit wages working 12 hour days and possibly raped in the company bathroom?  Why can't we make iPhones in Wisconsin?  Go ahead and keep posting your articles though.  I keep looking at the 2016 electoral map and laughing my ass off.

Because it's estimated the iPhone would cost roughly 2K if made strictly in the United States.
https://www.marketplace.org/2014/05/20/business/ive-always-wondered/how-much-would-all-american-iphone-cost

I looked into this years ago as I had the same question. One thing to note as well in the analysis. They say "labor’s not the most significant financial advantage to manufacturing the iPhone in China."

Of course this really drives home Sol's point about jacking up the price and running into obvious difficulties now selling the product. You would literally price the iPhone right out of the market. Samsung and others would love to see Apple move iPhone production to the US. But it isn't going to happen, because they aren't stupid.

Right, but under protectionism Samsung would also have to produce in the US.  And the entire premise of American School economics is that wages rise and therefore more people can afford items they value.  Maybe iPhones are underpriced (due to unfair and unsafe working conditions in Asia) and we're tethered to consumerist bullshit?  Still waiting to hear if sol supports minimum wage laws in the United States or if he's an Ayn Rand libertarian. 

ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #616 on: January 17, 2018, 03:44:16 PM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.

Is it society's responsibility to make sure all industries stay relevant?  Horse trainers, buggy manufacturers, VCR repairs have all gone by the wayside.  It happens.  Industry changes.

It can be complicated, absolutely. I'm saying that I think the sense of entitlement is absurd.

We aren't talking about an industry that has become irrelevant,  though, we are talking about one that has moved farther away from it's customers.
I'm not going to argue for keeping the auto makers in Michigan,  though. I still see auto plants in other states. I think it has to do with the UAW and it's shitty practices, at least somewhat.  Unions were good and useful, until they went too far.
Unions went too far, lol.  That is funny.  Why do you think auto workers had decent paychecks?  If not for unions autoworkers would be paid just like any other low skill job.  And the increase in pay did not hurt the auto industry's profit.  Compare the cost of it, to the C-level increases.

they had decent paychecks for a time, because about the time John got sick of buying Ford's union built junk and bought a chevy, Tom got sick of Chevy's union built junk and bought a Dodge, and Jerry got sick of Dodge union built junk and bought a Ford. During all this, the big 3 could put up with the UAW's nonsense and ridulous demands and pay the floor sweeper 100K, make a profit, and not improve thier product.

Then toyota and Honda came along. When someone bought a honda or Toyota, they didn't end up with a bad taste in thier mouth and kept buying them.  the union, in thier infinite greed, wouldn't dial back thier parasitic bleeding of thier hosts... and killed off all but three of the american automakers.
And how much do the C-level executives earn?  Or are you just pulling things out of your ass, like you did with the salary you posted?

I shouldn't bother addressing this, as your response is non-sequitor and, I think, you may be confusing me with someone else... but I can't help myself.

Sorry, the $100K janitor is really a $270K per year janitor who is a public employee union in LA. Public employee unions are another level of corrupt and dispicable, so I won't go into that any further here.

So, How many of these 'C level executives' do you think there really are in a company like GM? Not a whole lot, I'd think. A conversation about whether some exec deserves 500K is one a company should have when it struggles, and i'll bet that  those guys did get a haircut or fired during the lean 80's, 90's, and early 2000's.

But Consider the sheer numbers of hourly employees (there are 225,000 according to Wikipedia right now). Paying them lavishly can run a company under pretty quick, when the company is facing slowing sales. With that many employees, every $1 per hour paid, on straight time alone, is nearly 500million dollars... let alone the social security taxes, etc that the employer has to pay.

Throw in the games unions play that cost productivity for zero gain for the worker, and you're talking huge quantities of money.

Read my last post closer. You will see I clearly laid some of the blame at the feet of the executives who didn't innovate or see fit to improve the quality of what they sold. That does NOT absolve the UAW of it's role in thier own demise, and unions, going forward, must honestly assess thier relationship to thier host companies if they want to survive. Your attitude, of unions can do no wrong, will just ensure they demise.

I want to boil this down concisely so it fits in everyone's attention span: Unions are not soley to blame for the demise of American auto manufacturing, but thier demands became especially painful during the lean years of the late 70s through mid 2000s, and accelerated the bleeding and outsourcing. unions must accept that globalisation is here to stay, and they may need to change the way they do things if they want to continue to exist.

Psychstache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #617 on: January 17, 2018, 04:00:24 PM »
Why would a foreign company like Samsung have to produce their products in the United States?

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CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #618 on: January 17, 2018, 04:04:50 PM »
Why would a foreign company like Samsung have to produce their products in the United States?

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The tariffs apply to goods entering the country.  The HQ of the company isn't so relevant. 

MasterStache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #619 on: January 17, 2018, 04:06:10 PM »
I'm not saying anyone has a right to employment.  I don't know where people keep getting that idea.

really?

he should have a steady salary at the Ford plant making 50K and benefits.

Should in theory.  No legal right.  Again, I used 50k somewhat arbitrarily because it's a lot better than making minimum wage at Wal-Mart. 

I just bought a pair of LL Bean boots recently.  Hand stitched and made in Maine.  Only $85.  Why can't we make shoes in America?  Why do we have to buy shit Nike shoes made by a poor woman in Southeast Asia who was paid shit wages working 12 hour days and possibly raped in the company bathroom?  Why can't we make iPhones in Wisconsin?  Go ahead and keep posting your articles though.  I keep looking at the 2016 electoral map and laughing my ass off.

Because it's estimated the iPhone would cost roughly 2K if made strictly in the United States.
https://www.marketplace.org/2014/05/20/business/ive-always-wondered/how-much-would-all-american-iphone-cost

I looked into this years ago as I had the same question. One thing to note as well in the analysis. They say "labor’s not the most significant financial advantage to manufacturing the iPhone in China."

Of course this really drives home Sol's point about jacking up the price and running into obvious difficulties now selling the product. You would literally price the iPhone right out of the market. Samsung and others would love to see Apple move iPhone production to the US. But it isn't going to happen, because they aren't stupid.

Right, but under protectionism Samsung would also have to produce in the US.  And the entire premise of American School economics is that wages rise and therefore more people can afford items they value.  Maybe iPhones are underpriced (due to unfair and unsafe working conditions in Asia) and we're tethered to consumerist bullshit?  Still waiting to hear if sol supports minimum wage laws in the United States or if he's an Ayn Rand libertarian.

LMAO, no that's not how it works. Samsung and Apple will not produce in the US because no one is going to purchase a 2K phone. Try reading the article. It answered your question.

CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #620 on: January 17, 2018, 04:07:13 PM »
Unions are often greedy and inflate wages above market price.  That's wrong and stupid.  But it doesn't itself mean free trade is good economic policy.  The two issues are rather separate. 

CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #621 on: January 17, 2018, 04:14:27 PM »
Actually that IS how protectionism works.  Foreign companies don't get to dump foreign made products in the country.  You don't have to like the theory or believe in it, but that IS how it works. 

As to whether or not people would pay 2k for an iPhone, I'm think they would.  But who cares anyway. I'd rather have one for $700.  So what if we have 10% U6 unenploymemt in this country, millions on food stamps, and huge consumer debt that fills landfills with last year's iPhones and packaging.  And who cares if the lady who made my iPhone was paid peanuts and worked 12 hour days.  Fuck her, I want a $700 iPhone. 

CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #622 on: January 17, 2018, 04:29:46 PM »
From HuffPost;

The raw materials mined in Congo are then sent to factories in China — most notably, the Foxconn plant in Shenzhen. The factory has been described by local media as a “labor camp,” in which teenage students are sought out for employment and are forced to work more than double or even triple the overtime limit (36 hours a month under China’s labor laws), and workers are routinely uncompensated for injuries suffered on the job. Seventeen workers attempted suicide, and 14 died jumping from the roof of the building in 2010. The company responded by putting anti-suicide nets around the building, and forced employees to sign agreements stating that their employer would be exempt from lawsuits brought by family members in the event of their suicide. Foxconn claims to have raised workers’ wages to $298 per month, but workers say those pay raises never came.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/carl-gibson/how-the-iphone_b_5800262.html

Whatevs, got me a deal on my phone! 

JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #623 on: January 17, 2018, 04:45:16 PM »
Actually that IS how protectionism works.  Foreign companies don't get to dump foreign made products in the country.  You don't have to like the theory or believe in it, but that IS how it works. 

As to whether or not people would pay 2k for an iPhone, I'm think they would.  But who cares anyway. I'd rather have one for $700.  So what if we have 10% U6 unenploymemt in this country, millions on food stamps, and huge consumer debt that fills landfills with last year's iPhones and packaging.  And who cares if the lady who made my iPhone was paid peanuts and worked 12 hour days.  Fuck her, I want a $700 iPhone.

We've been under 10% U6 for over two years now, but lets not let facts get in the way of a rational discussion.

CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #624 on: January 17, 2018, 04:55:16 PM »
Sorry, 10% in parts of the country.  Like Michigan.  But screw us, right?

Tweet 20 minutes ago:

Donald J. Trump

During the campaign, I promised to MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN by bringing businesses and jobs back to our country. I am very proud to see companies like Chrysler moving operations from Mexico to Michigan where there are so many great American workers!

JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #625 on: January 17, 2018, 05:30:33 PM »
Sorry, 10% in parts of the country.  Like Michigan.  But screw us, right?

Tweet 20 minutes ago:

Donald J. Trump

During the campaign, I promised to MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN by bringing businesses and jobs back to our country. I am very proud to see companies like Chrysler moving operations from Mexico to Michigan where there are so many great American workers!

12.6% in Alaska, 11.9% in New Mexico, 11.4% in Nevada..and yes, if you round up then Michigan can be at 10% too.

Apple is bringing many billions of $ into the US, which is nice.

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #626 on: January 17, 2018, 05:51:48 PM »
Actually that IS how protectionism works.  Foreign companies don't get to dump foreign made products in the country.  You don't have to like the theory or believe in it, but that IS how it works. 

As to whether or not people would pay 2k for an iPhone, I'm think they would.  But who cares anyway. I'd rather have one for $700.  So what if we have 10% U6 unenploymemt in this country, millions on food stamps, and huge consumer debt that fills landfills with last year's iPhones and packaging.  And who cares if the lady who made my iPhone was paid peanuts and worked 12 hour days.  Fuck her, I want a $700 iPhone.

I said nothing of how protectionism works
 Sure some folks would fork over 2k. But not enough to justify moving an entire production line to the states. I am sure they are perfectly content making in China and Americans will enjoy purchasing at a deeply discounted rate. Amazing how we all benefit. Ain't life grand 😁

retiringearly

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #627 on: January 20, 2018, 07:08:29 PM »

bacchi

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #628 on: January 20, 2018, 08:35:54 PM »
<snip>

The streets are public and there ain't no litmus test for marching.

MasterStache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #629 on: January 21, 2018, 07:02:23 AM »
<snip>

The streets are public and there ain't no litmus test for marching.

Nor is it just women, nor is it purely about women "issues." Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #630 on: January 21, 2018, 09:35:04 AM »
Actually that IS how protectionism works.  Foreign companies don't get to dump foreign made products in the country.  You don't have to like the theory or believe in it, but that IS how it works. 

As to whether or not people would pay 2k for an iPhone, I'm think they would.  But who cares anyway. I'd rather have one for $700.  So what if we have 10% U6 unenploymemt in this country, millions on food stamps, and huge consumer debt that fills landfills with last year's iPhones and packaging.  And who cares if the lady who made my iPhone was paid peanuts and worked 12 hour days.  Fuck her, I want a $700 iPhone.

So you think the person buying a $700 iPhone is the one saying fuck the worker, and not the person that wants to prevent her from having her job?

MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #631 on: January 22, 2018, 10:08:55 AM »
Sol, as I mentioned before, corporations only care about the bottom line, which your example of the American Auto industry collapsing if all the jobs were to come back to Michigan, makes sense because of this.

My only argument is that Ford/GM can still manufacture their cars here, sell them for the SAME price and STILL make a profit - only not as big as the one they are currently making with cheap labor. 

This won't happen, never ever ever. The higher cost will undoubtedly be passed onto the consumer. I just think it's idiotic for people who were shafted by GM/Ford to still buy their products, but that's not really the point here.

I only hope Tesla can prove us wrong. If they can get their shit together and manufacture their cars in the US, and grow, that will be a nice change of pace.
I'm not an expert here, but I've heard GM/Ford mostly make SUVs and Trucks here, which are high profit margin vehicles.  Most of their smaller cars are made in Mexico.  This is only possible because of American consumer suckas.  Few foreign companies make SUVs and Trucks as large as we do here, so there's less competition.

It's really been a twist to me, Republicans were rarely protectionist in the still recent past. 

CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #632 on: January 22, 2018, 05:18:59 PM »
More good news.  My President just placed tariffs on solar panels and washing machines, which were being produced in China.  But now even Whirlpool says this will result in more jobs in the US, and that consumers and workers will win.  http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/22/news/economy/us-tariff-washing-machines-solar-cells/index.html?iid=hp-toplead-dom

NAFTA comes next!

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #633 on: January 22, 2018, 05:21:47 PM »
consumers and workers will win.

You do realize that these two groups are on opposite sides of the offshoring debate, right?  What's good for workers is bad for consumers (namely, protectionist policies that drive up the prices for goods).

CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #634 on: January 22, 2018, 05:47:13 PM »
consumers and workers will win.

You do realize that these two groups are on opposite sides of the offshoring debate, right?  What's good for workers is bad for consumers (namely, protectionist policies that drive up the prices for goods).

Disagree.  Protectionism works because it keeps money circulating in our economy, provides our workers with steady reliable and fair income. Just my opinion.  I'd rather pay more for my Ford knowing people near me have jobs.

Sol, you support minimum wage in the US?

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #635 on: January 22, 2018, 06:12:56 PM »
Sol, you support minimum wage in the US?

Sometimes, yes. 

The difference between a minimum wage (for US workers living in the US) and a protectionist trade policy is that protectionism disadvantages american companies compared to international ones.  A minimum wage is like the idealized best case version of protectionism, because it increases the cost of goods (from having to pay higher wages) at the same time and place that it increases the available customer supply (from giving consumers more wages to buy stuff with).  That works out okay in places where all of the money stays in the same economy and there is no outside competition for production or labor.

Global trade isn't like that all.  If an american company has to pay higher labor costs, there is an international labor market that will undercut them and sell identical goods cheaper, and there is an international consumer market full of people who are not making those new higher wages and so can't afford the newly more expensive US goods.  This is why protectionism undercuts the country that does it.  It disadvantages US corporations, and gives up market share to foreign competitors.

We've covered this ground before.  International trade has absolutely been the magical key to unlocking the power of capitalism.  It is the reason why first world nations are as prosperous as they are.  The world would be a very different place if every country could only make and buy their own goods.  It would not be a better world.

And before you go off the deep end on me, I recognize that there are necessary protections in this race to the bottom.  Most people don't want cheaper electronics if it means buying them from a country that uses slavery or abused children to staff their factories.  But it DOES make goods cheaper to violate human rights like that, and we need to recognize that refusing to buy goods from slavery or child abuse legitimately increases our prices on the consumer end.  As long as everyone in the global economy agrees with us, those places go out of business.  If a large enough piece of the international market doesn't mind buying ipods manufactured by abducted children, then those cheap goods will continue to be produced and you need to decide whether or not you want to pay more to avoid them.  If you are prosperous, you may have that choice.  Not every consumer in the global marketplace shares your luck.

In the case of US manufacturing jobs, where wages are 10x or 25x higher than they are in places like China or Vietnam, US corporations would be instantly noncompetitive in the global marketplace, in most industries.  You can't build an air conditioner in Manhattan at the same price that you can build it in Mexico City, and that difference is the reason why both of those places can profit off of that transaction.  If you tried to force Manhattan to build all of its own air conditioners, you would quickly discover five different reasons why that's not going to work out.


PKFFW

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #636 on: January 22, 2018, 06:58:38 PM »
It strikes me that Protectionism is sort of like Communism - great in theory but no one can actually point out an example of where it has worked well in practice.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #637 on: January 22, 2018, 07:02:31 PM »
consumers and workers will win.

You do realize that these two groups are on opposite sides of the offshoring debate, right?  What's good for workers is bad for consumers (namely, protectionist policies that drive up the prices for goods).

Disagree.  Protectionism works because it keeps money circulating in our economy, provides our workers with steady reliable and fair income. Just my opinion.  I'd rather pay more for my Ford knowing people near me have jobs.
I'm being pedantic but money will be "circulating in our economy" regardless since the balance of payments must be zero and any current account deficit will be matched with a capital account surplus. It's actually a bit of a surprising and long-lasting scheme on our part to buy consumer goods while selling Treasuries overseas accruing real interest at rates below 0% (the two aren't directly connected but are offsetting items in the BOP).

It's wrong to assume if Fords aren't built in the US that your neighbors won't have jobs. There are some subtle problems with the position of free trade/comparative advantage fundamentalists, but generally, open economies are more successful than protectionist ones. I consider it possible that there is such a thing as Really Smart Mercantilism that results in superior performance at a national level to free trade but my suspicion is Really Smart Mercantilism is a very difficult set of trading policies to successfully discover and enact.

bacchi

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #638 on: January 22, 2018, 08:01:08 PM »
It strikes me that Protectionism is sort of like Communism - great in theory but no one can actually point out an example of where it has worked well in practice.

What's required is a highly desirable resource owned exclusively by that country/company/entity.

Except for the conspiracy, and the natural predators, it worked well for House Atreides.


MasterStache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #639 on: January 23, 2018, 05:57:12 AM »
consumers and workers will win.

You do realize that these two groups are on opposite sides of the offshoring debate, right?  What's good for workers is bad for consumers (namely, protectionist policies that drive up the prices for goods).

I'd rather pay more for my Ford knowing people near me have jobs.


Funny how protectionism works only when you apply logic that doesn't represent the typical consumer.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-made-in-america-attitudes-20170721-story.html
http://money.cnn.com/2017/03/13/news/economy/donald-trump-buy-american/index.html

Makes sense as to why Trump still keeps manufacturing products in China, Indonesia and Bangladesh among many others. 

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #640 on: January 23, 2018, 07:16:49 AM »
It strikes me that Protectionism is sort of like Communism - great in theory but no one can actually point out an example of where it has worked well in practice.

Asian economies. The gist is that successful Asian economies used protectionist policies to defend certain key industries while they leaped up the learning curve. Market discipline was imposed by forcing companies to meet export quotas: You didn't have to compete in the home market, but you had to sell a certain number of cars in the competitive American market, or else you would be forced to sell off your company to one of the more profitable economies.

Communism doesn't work and can't work. There's a possible logic behind the protectionist arguments, but for economies like the US it is basically just rewarding producers at the expense of consumers.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #641 on: January 23, 2018, 08:17:12 AM »
Wait, you guys are free market capitalists I thought?  I can't keep up.  Do you support free market capitalism or government intervention in the market?  Please pick one.

The tariff move, btw, is expected to cause the loss of 23,000 American jobs this year alone.

caffeine

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #642 on: January 23, 2018, 08:46:50 AM »
Wait, you guys are free market capitalists I thought?  I can't keep up.  Do you support free market capitalism or government intervention in the market?  Please pick one.

The tariff move, btw, is expected to cause the loss of 23,000 American jobs this year alone.

It depends. Do you think China should prop up industries to produce items below market value to destroy US companies? They did it with steel.  China also does intellectual theft with impunity.

By the nature of the tariff, US Solar installation industry will lose. US Solar manufactures win.

CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #643 on: January 23, 2018, 09:05:35 AM »
Wait, you guys are free market capitalists I thought?  I can't keep up.  Do you support free market capitalism or government intervention in the market?  Please pick one.

The tariff move, btw, is expected to cause the loss of 23,000 American jobs this year alone.

That's the thing, historically the GOP had NOT been free market unfettered capitalism.  Fremont and Lincoln were hardcore protectionists and the GOP more or less held that view well into the mid 20th century.  Read up on McKinley.  It was American School of economics.  Still capitalistic but clearly based on economic nationalism.  Then the neo-cons took over.  Like Trump said, Reagan was a great president but he was wrong on trade.  I can't speak for every Republican but if you want me to "pick one" I pick the economic stance that our party had in the beginning.  If that makes me an impure capitalist I really don't care.  MAGA

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #644 on: January 23, 2018, 09:06:33 AM »
Wait, you guys are free market capitalists I thought?  I can't keep up.  Do you support free market capitalism or government intervention in the market?  Please pick one.

The tariff move, btw, is expected to cause the loss of 23,000 American jobs this year alone.

Free trade agreements are currently a minority position within the GOP as the base has gotten more nativist over the last few cycles. The leadership has usually been mostly on board with the free-trade agreements, and has been for decades (probably longer).

I'm pretty much with the neoliberals.

Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #645 on: January 23, 2018, 09:26:19 AM »
It strikes me that Protectionism is sort of like Communism - great in theory but no one can actually point out an example of where it has worked well in practice.

Well, it works if your goal is to make people work more.  Think if you took it to its logical extreme, and decided that any money you "exported" outside of your household made you poorer.  You wouldn't just have one job per person, you'd have multiple jobs per person and never have to worry about being unemployed.  You'd almost certainly be a subsistence level farmer and desperately poor, but you'd never be unemployed. 

You might could also have zero unemployment if you were protectionist at the city level, depending on how big the city is, but you'd also likely be pretty poor. 

MasterStache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #646 on: January 23, 2018, 09:39:25 AM »
Wait, you guys are free market capitalists I thought?  I can't keep up.  Do you support free market capitalism or government intervention in the market?  Please pick one.

The tariff move, btw, is expected to cause the loss of 23,000 American jobs this year alone.

It depends. Do you think China should prop up industries to produce items below market value to destroy US companies? They did it with steel.  China also does intellectual theft with impunity.

By the nature of the tariff, US Solar installation industry will lose. US Solar manufactures win.

Manufacturers will not "win" as much as you may think. There are only roughly 38,000 people employed in solar manufacturing across the US. First year projections alone are roughly 23,000 folks losing their jobs, some even in manufacturing. There are several hundred thousand employed in installation with "solar installer" poised to become one of the fastest growing jobs in the US.

Panels themselves represent only about a third or less of the total cost. BUT, even a 10-15 cent/watt increase in price greatly extends payback time. That's vitally important to folks like myself and others who have or are contemplating putting up a solar array. Everyone loses. No one wins.

Nothing like applauding a decision to further push the US behind in renewable energy installation, destroying jobs, and not seeking to exploit the fastest growing energy market on the planet, as most developed countries are currently doing. 


DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #647 on: January 23, 2018, 09:39:41 AM »
Wait, you guys are free market capitalists I thought?  I can't keep up.  Do you support free market capitalism or government intervention in the market?  Please pick one.

The tariff move, btw, is expected to cause the loss of 23,000 American jobs this year alone.

It depends. Do you think China should prop up industries to produce items below market value to destroy US companies? They did it with steel.  China also does intellectual theft with impunity.

By the nature of the tariff, US Solar installation industry will lose. US Solar manufactures win.

If China is manipulating it, tax Chinese solar panels specifically - and defer that issue to Congress...Who, by the way, should handle all taxes and tariffs as our Constitution mandates.  (Weren't Republicans the ones running around with pocket book Constitutions?)

Imagine a 30% tariff being placed on DVD players at the turn of the century for the sake of the VCR industry.  That's what this is.  It's ****ing stupid.

If you believe China is manipulating solar prices (also...washers? wtf? Does Whirlpool need that much help?) to undercut American manufacturers...either allow Congress to enact a tax on Chinese solar panels or subsidize American manufacturers (oh wait...that was on Obama-era subsidy/tax credit.  We can't have that, right?) to keep them more in line.

Look, obviously the government gets involved quite a bit with subsidies, grants, taxes, tax credits, etc. in business.  But those go through Congress, not the White House.  Isn't that what the right was screaming for years under Obama?

caffeine

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #648 on: January 23, 2018, 10:59:50 AM »
If China is manipulating it, tax Chinese solar panels specifically - and defer that issue to Congress...Who, by the way, should handle all taxes and tariffs as our Constitution mandates.  (Weren't Republicans the ones running around with pocket book Constitutions?)

Everyone loves executive orders until their team isn't in power.

Imagine a 30% tariff being placed on DVD players at the turn of the century for the sake of the VCR industry.  That's what this is.  It's ****ing stupid.

False equivalence. China has stolen solar companies trade/manufacturing secrets. They are essentially stealing from US Companies, sell it back to us at artificially low prices to gain market share, and raise prices slowly after the competition is gone.

Steel is closer to a real world example. The EU imposed a 13% tariff on China steel because of their practice.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/04/27/news/companies/us-steel-china-investigation-trade/index.html

If you believe China is manipulating solar prices (also...washers? wtf? Does Whirlpool need that much help?) to undercut American manufacturers...either allow Congress to enact a tax on Chinese solar panels or subsidize American manufacturers (oh wait...that was on Obama-era subsidy/tax credit.  We can't have that, right?) to keep them more in line.

Look, obviously the government gets involved quite a bit with subsidies, grants, taxes, tax credits, etc. in business.  But those go through Congress, not the White House.  Isn't that what the right was screaming for years under Obama?

Your post seems to concede something needs/could be done but let Congress. You seem more concerned with score keeping than your interest in US success. Executive orders can be given and be unconstitutional.

When you're President, as Obama has seen, the sluggish turn of Congress is unbearable.

Although, some subsidies would be helpful about now.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 11:01:43 AM by caffeine »

MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #649 on: January 23, 2018, 11:07:42 AM »
Wait, you guys are free market capitalists I thought?  I can't keep up.  Do you support free market capitalism or government intervention in the market?  Please pick one.

The tariff move, btw, is expected to cause the loss of 23,000 American jobs this year alone.

That's the thing, historically the GOP had NOT been free market unfettered capitalism.  Fremont and Lincoln were hardcore protectionists and the GOP more or less held that view well into the mid 20th century.  Read up on McKinley.  It was American School of economics.  Still capitalistic but clearly based on economic nationalism.  Then the neo-cons took over.  Like Trump said, Reagan was a great president but he was wrong on trade.  I can't speak for every Republican but if you want me to "pick one" I pick the economic stance that our party had in the beginning.  If that makes me an impure capitalist I really don't care.  MAGA
That's like saying historically, Democrats have been the party of racists.  While technically true, you're going back a long ways to make that true. 

In the last 40 years or so, I don't consider Democrats being the party of racists, and I don't consider the GOP being protectionists.