Author Topic: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?  (Read 51320 times)

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #550 on: January 16, 2018, 11:28:34 AM »
3.  Trump/Russia
You must be caught up in the media hype, I think they have about given up pushing what started with a fake dossier

This right here is why no one can take Trump voters seriously.

https://www.npr.org/2018/01/09/576789880/author-of-russia-dossier-worried-trump-was-being-blackmailed

Quote
Steele later told Simpson that he believed the FBI would consider his information credible because the bureau had corroborating intelligence, including from a human source within the Trump organization.

The dossier was not the genesis of the (very real) Russia investigation, an investigation which to date has resulted in (at least) two guilty pleas and (at least) two indictments.  These include Trump's former campaign manager and his associate, Trump's national security adviser, and his foreign policy adviser on the campaign.

There are at least five ongoing investigations (Senate Intel Committee, House Intel Committee, Senate Judiciary Committee, House Oversight Committee, and Special Counsel (Robert Mueller) appointed by the Justice Department.

To try to suggest this as fake or media hype is completely disingenuous and why most of the rest of the population has a hard time having conversations with Trump supporters.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 11:31:01 AM by DarkandStormy »
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DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #551 on: January 16, 2018, 11:31:47 AM »
The media hates him.

Reporting what he says and does is not hatred.  It's called journalism.
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BTDretire

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #552 on: January 16, 2018, 01:15:15 PM »
The media hates him.

Reporting what he says and does is not hatred.  It's called journalism.

 The media hates him reports 90% negative stories and anything positive is ignored.
More American would be for Trump if the media wasn't constantly brainwashing them with negatives and started
telling some of the positives.
 It will be interesting who gets the blame for the market downturn today.  Trump or Hoyer.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #553 on: January 16, 2018, 01:33:03 PM »
The media hates him.

Reporting what he says and does is not hatred.  It's called journalism.

 The media hates him reports 90% negative stories and anything positive is ignored.
More American would be for Trump if the media wasn't constantly brainwashing them with negatives and started
telling some of the positives.

Perhaps...wait for it...it's because 90% of the stories are ACTUALLY negative?

I'd love to hear some of the positives of the first year of his presidency since I have been brainwashed.
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JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #554 on: January 16, 2018, 01:36:33 PM »
The media hates him.

Reporting what he says and does is not hatred.  It's called journalism.

 The media hates him reports 90% negative stories and anything positive is ignored.
More American would be for Trump if the media wasn't constantly brainwashing them with negatives and started
telling some of the positives.
 It will be interesting who gets the blame for the market downturn today.  Trump or Hoyer.

Trump's own twitter does a damn good job of telling me all about these negative stories.   It's mostly incessant whining about anyone he doesn't like.  Where's the actual accomplishment? Professionalism?

Brainwashing is a rather apt description of how Trump talks to his followers about democrats.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 01:41:32 PM by JLee »

MasterStache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #555 on: January 16, 2018, 02:30:42 PM »
The media hates him.

Reporting what he says and does is not hatred.  It's called journalism.

 The media hates him reports 90% negative stories and anything positive is ignored.
More American would be for Trump if the media wasn't constantly brainwashing them with negatives and started
telling some of the positives.
 It will be interesting who gets the blame for the market downturn today.  Trump or Hoyer.

I would say over 90% of what Trump Tweets is negative, insulting or just outright false. Apparently that just gets casually hand waved away.

No, more American's wouldn't be for Trump. Because "more Americans" can also see what Trump writes, says and does and most importantly, what he represents. It's not the media's fault he bragged about sexually molesting women. It's not the media's fault he shreds veterans. It's not the media's fault he is racist, narcissistic, and xenophobic. It's not the media's fault he lies incessantly and without pause. The media didn't force him to dislike the Constitution. They didn't force him to call black athletes SOB's or claim there are some "good people" in a group of White Nationalist. The media most certainly didn't force him to bang a prostitute very recently and pay her off.

But in typical Trump supporter fashion, it's somehow everyone's else's fault Trump is largely disliked. It's certainly not Trump's fault. Good grief.
 

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #556 on: January 16, 2018, 03:08:23 PM »
I'm proud of my President.  God bless him!

Proud?  Really?

I can understand that some folks agree with republican policy positions, but no one is really proud of policies.  We're proud of people, when they do things we admire, and I don't see much in Trump the person that I might be proud of, as distinct from things that Trump the president might support that I could agree with.

As a human being, he is a disappointment.  He has cheated on all three of his wives.  His business is three different kinds of corrupt.  His public commentary is deliberately inflammatory.  He's not a very nice person.  I'm pretty sure I would not be proud of him, even if I agreed with the things he had done as president.

He just seems like a really bad role model in every possible way.  I'm not sure why so many people claim to look up to him. 

PKFFW

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #557 on: January 16, 2018, 03:18:25 PM »
He just seems like a really bad role model in every possible way.  I'm not sure why so many people claim to look up to him.
Because he has money.

In a land obsessed with the dollar above all else, it is not surprising many would admire someone simply because they have a lot of money.  Regardless of how that person got it or what else they have done and said.  Money Trumps all else. (yes, pun intended)

the_fixer

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #558 on: January 16, 2018, 03:34:00 PM »
Sad that so many people on this site are so hateful.

I really appreciate and am thankful for the knowledge I have gained but it gets harder and harder to be part of a site where so many people are so angry and blinded by their hate.


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Kris

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #559 on: January 16, 2018, 04:11:34 PM »
Being critical of an absolutely abhorrent president cannot be so easily dismissed as simple “hate”.

Though I get that it’s easier to just do that than admit how truly awful he is.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

the_fixer

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #560 on: January 16, 2018, 04:33:22 PM »
I could care less what anyone's opinion is of the president and that is not the hate I am speaking about.

 I am referring to the treatment of some of the members of this community.


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CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #561 on: January 16, 2018, 04:45:52 PM »
I didn't say he is a Saint.  You can be proud of someone despite their flaws.  That's what I find so funny about this thread.  OP asks if we regret voting Republican.  Some of us say no, and you guys just can't believe it.  Trump is so repugnant to you it's hard to imagine that anyone with the IQ greater than that of a ferret could possibly support him.  Am I proud that Trump tried to sell steaks at Sharper Image decades ago?  No.  But I'm very proud he's appointing an army of pro-life judges throughout the entire federal court system.  I'm proud he's trying to renegotiate trade deals and increase manufacturing jobs with old school Republican protectionism.  I'm proud he's kicking MS13 gang members out of my country. I could go on and on but I won't. 

Where you're wrong is this.  I really AM proud of the policies of my party.  And I'm proud of Trump because he's getting the job done after W's dumpster fire and Mr. Nice Guy Romney screwed the pooch.  I'm one of those nerds who reads the platforms every 4 years, and I firmly believe in our ideas.  And part of the reason I'm proud of Trump is because he made the platform better IMO.  He had the guts to say that Crazy Bernie was right on trade and that Reagan was wrong on trade.  I think the lesson learned in 2016 was that there were a lot of rust belt Republicans (or leaning independents) ready to hit the polls for the right guy.  I never thought GOP would nominate a protectionist candidate for President again, but Trump found a way.  The fact that we won with MI, WI, PA (and almost MN) makes the victory all the better.  I look forward to Trump's team making NAFTA better for us.  If Mexico and Canada will not give him what he wants I hope he goes on twitter and notifies them (and the world) that he is initiating the 6 month withdrawal from NAFTA and they can go fuck off.  Yeah, I'd be damn proud if he did that.  But I'm a Republican from a red state in the Midwest.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 04:47:40 PM by CheapScholar »

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #562 on: January 16, 2018, 04:47:27 PM »
I could care less what anyone's opinion is of the president and that is not the hate I am speaking about.

 I am referring to the treatment of some of the members of this community.

If you see any examples here or elsewhere of forum members personally mistreating other forum members, please use the "report to moderator" button right below it.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #563 on: January 16, 2018, 07:16:37 PM »
NAFTA withdrawal would result in the loss of 3 million jobs, but hey....fuck Canada, right? #MAGA
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CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #564 on: January 16, 2018, 07:44:55 PM »
NAFTA withdrawal would result in the loss of 3 million jobs, but hey....fuck Canada, right? #MAGA

I don't believe those reports.  And even if leaving NAFTA meant short term job losses, I'm convinced that in the long term, economic protectionism (you can call it economic nationalism, I'm totally fine with that) would be a net win.  More jobs.  People less dependent on the welfare state.  Resurrect the rust belt and give people dignity and the chance to buy homes and start families.  I'm ok with new trade agreements 1:1 based on agriculture but I don't think cars assembled abroad should be allowed in this country, but hey that's just my opinion after living in Detroit for three years.  I remember taking a class on NAFTA in law school.  Yup, one entire three credit hour class just on NAFTA.  I remember thinking what a fuct up POS deal it was.  I remember talking to other Republicans in the class and asking WHY DOES OUR PARTY SUPPORT THIS SHIT?  Most of them agreed and we scratched our heads and realized it probably wouldn't change.  But it did change with Trump.  I've READ David Ricardo, Krugman, other economists and all the free trade bull shit.  But I've LIVED in Midwestern cities that have been wiped by globalization.  I don't care what report you have about millions of jobs or what some economists in an ivory tower say.  In this instance I'm with Trump and the far left.  Make American, Employ American, Buy American.  MAGA!

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #565 on: January 16, 2018, 07:57:10 PM »
I'm convinced that in the long term, economic protectionism (you can call it economic nationalism, I'm totally fine with that) would be a net win.

Um, WHEN has that ever worked? 

That's a totally serious question.  Like, please give me a list of historical cases where economic protectionism caused a modern nation to prosper.  I'm having a hard time.

In economics circles, protectionism is almost a self-referential joke, used to describe things that hurt the very people they are designed to help.  It sounds good, but it universally weakens economies.  I'm frankly baffled to hear anyone seriously espousing it as good policy.

Like try googling the Corn Laws, or the Tariff Act of 1789.  This is high school history class stuff. 

Free trade is the single greatest cause of modern prosperity.  It is absolutely central to the very idea of capitalism.  Protectionism is a step backwards in time.

CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #566 on: January 16, 2018, 08:50:59 PM »
It's hard to cite a very long run of prosperity under protectionism because there's different political factors (reconstruction starting in 1865), different currency bases (gold standard, bimetalism, transition to fiat), wars, famines, etc.  The GOP was most protectionist from the beginning (Lincoln) up until the mid 20th century.  Obviously this includes the long depression in the 1870s, some pretty bad years in the 1890s.  I think McKinley gave us some great years.  But again, it's hard to assign the entire shape of the US economy based on trade policies because it's just one input in a very long equation.  So I can't name a country and give you a solid 30 years and say "obviously their protectionist trade policies led to prosperity! Hooray!"  Just like you can't say any single economic policy did that, because we have less than 300 years of capitalist history and, again, there's too much happening.  What I do believe is that free trade leads to a race to the bottom.  It incentivizes countries to participate in a race to the bottom that exploits workers, trashes the environment, and leaves workers in wealthier countries with no chance to earn a living (which leads to crime, drug abuse, the break up of families, and an American Dream out of reach).  You cite the Corn Laws as an example even though in my previous post I said we should reinstitute trade agreements based on agriculture.  Ricardo is correct that comparative advantage makes trade worthwhile when there are serious surpluses or natural advantages.  So we can send Mexico apples and they can send us avocados.  I'm all for that.  What I'm NOT for is a car company building a car in Mexico and then sending it to Michigan while we drive by our shuttered car factories.  Fuck that.  So, like I said, I'm with Crazy Bernie and the far left.  I'm with McKinley and the GOP of old.  Most importantly, I'm with the guy currently in the Oval Office.  We are going to use American workers to ignite the greatest period of American prosperity.  We are going to restore people's dignity with real work and close our trade deficit.  I actually love your posts, sol.  You're one of the most entertaining people on the forum.  If memory serves, you are a government employee?  And you live in the PNW?  Let me tell you, you live a WORLD away from the struggling towns in the Midwest where people cannot find work.

JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #567 on: January 16, 2018, 08:56:48 PM »
Unemployment has been dropping steadily since 2009.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/national-employment-monthly-update.aspx

What am I missing here?

CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #568 on: January 16, 2018, 09:09:21 PM »
Unemployment has been dropping steadily since 2009.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/national-employment-monthly-update.aspx

What am I missing here?

What are you missing?  Maybe the real unemployment U6 ratings that include people who have given the fuck up.  Maybe the people who are "employed" at McDonalds working 30 hours a week so they can live in a shitty apartment and not be able to provide health insurance for their kids.  People putting off marriage and home ownership because we have become a country that doesn't make anything anymore.  I don't know, spend a day driving around metro Detroit and you tell me.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2016/u-3-and-u-6-unemployment-by-state-2015.htm
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 09:12:35 PM by CheapScholar »

JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #569 on: January 16, 2018, 09:16:36 PM »
Unemployment has been dropping steadily since 2009.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/national-employment-monthly-update.aspx

What am I missing here?

What are you missing?  Maybe the real unemployment U6 ratings that include people who have given the fuck up.  Maybe the people who are "employed" at McDonalds working 30 hours a week so they can live in a shitty apartment and not be able to provide health insurance for their kids.  People putting off marriage and home ownership because we have become a country that doesn't make anything anymore.  I don't know, spend a day driving around metro Detroit and you tell me.

So....these numbers, which are the lowest in the last 24 years except for the 3.5 year window in the late 90's (also known as the .com bubble)?



CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #570 on: January 16, 2018, 09:32:23 PM »
Yup, those numbers.  Because when you're in a state like Michigan that is built historically on making stuff, U6 unemployment of over 10% is still REALLY fucking high.  Because those people don't have income and don't spend money, and then it's hard for others to build businesses to serve others.  And realize that Michigan had population growth of only .80% last year, one of the lowest in the country.  People (especially the young) are leaving the state because (to sound like Trump) our jobs went to fucking Mexico.  Trump was the first presidential candidate in what...60 years...to finally call bullshit on this.  And we REWARDED HIM!  I'd submit that even the U6 numbers are flawed in the way it measures "underemployment" because it measures part-time workers who wish to be full time.  But it doesn't do a good job catching a guy working a shitty minimum wage job 40 hours a week (and probably stopping by a food bank to make ends meet) when he should have a steady salary at the Ford plant making 50K and benefits. 

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #571 on: January 16, 2018, 10:33:30 PM »
he should have a steady salary at the Ford plant making 50K and benefits.

"Should"?

You and I seem to have very different ideas about capitalism.  And entitlement.

partgypsy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #572 on: January 17, 2018, 06:09:20 AM »
Unemployment has been dropping steadily since 2009.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/national-employment-monthly-update.aspx

What am I missing here?

What are you missing?  Maybe the real unemployment U6 ratings that include people who have given the fuck up.  Maybe the people who are "employed" at McDonalds working 30 hours a week so they can live in a shitty apartment and not be able to provide health insurance for their kids.  People putting off marriage and home ownership because we have become a country that doesn't make anything anymore.  I don't know, spend a day driving around metro Detroit and you tell me.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2016/u-3-and-u-6-unemployment-by-state-2015.htm

If you think Trump, or Trump policies will help this group of people out, you are delusional. The rich are his base, and who are the true recipients of his policies. Do you think banning abortion is truly going to help out women who can't even feed the children they already have?
All he's going to do is give them false hope, and f' up our environment in the process.  https://qz.com/1118162/coal-miners-are-so-confident-trump-will-bring-coal-back-that-theyre-rejecting-alternate-career-retraining/

I do give credit where it is due, and Trump is an consummate politician, he's really good in telling people, his base, what they WANT to hear. Not saying he can deliver any of those things, but he's good at knowing how to press people's emotion buttons.   
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 07:11:48 AM by partgypsy »

CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #573 on: January 17, 2018, 06:19:18 AM »
he should have a steady salary at the Ford plant making 50K and benefits.

"Should"?

You and I seem to have very different ideas about capitalism.  And entitlement.

Oh no, the capitalist police!  Yeah, I subscribe to the American School of economics and believe in economic protectionism for non-agricultural goods.  Guess I'm comrade Karl Marx up in here. So I'm guessing you're a purist and don't believe in ANY elements of a mixed economy?  Do you favor any of these: minimum wage, Medicare, social security, public universities, libraries, public research grants?  I'm sure if I looked hard enough you're on other threads saying how awesome ACA is.

And those auto jobs SHOULD belong to Michiganders.  It's not "entitlement" and I'm not saying every man has a "right" to a job.  I'm saying that an economy can't operate with a 20T debt forever, and that can't be fixed until you have your own consumers buy products made by your people.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 07:08:10 AM by CheapScholar »

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #574 on: January 17, 2018, 06:49:48 AM »
when he should have a steady salary at the Ford plant making 50K and benefits.

By that logic I should be paid $250k/year
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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craiglepaige

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #575 on: January 17, 2018, 07:13:00 AM »
he should have a steady salary at the Ford plant making 50K and benefits.

"Should"?

You and I seem to have very different ideas about capitalism.  And entitlement.


I think the principle of what CheapScholar is saying should be obvious. Keep jobs here, pay a good wage and have locals support locals.

In paper it should work. Unfortunately corporations don't give a shit about principles and they only care about the bottom line.  So you have all of them sending their manufacturing jobs abroad.

Two things still baffled me, while working in the automotive industry.

A lot of Ford owners won't use a foreign car, as a rental, when their Fords are in the shop. Apparently not knowing that their cars, a lot of them, were built in Mexico.

These same owners continue to promote, buy and support Ford (I'm sure GM owners are the same) even though the company continues to send jobs to Mexico and other countries.

If these owners would stop buying the product and voiced their opinions via some type of strike(or whatever), maybe Ford would be tempted to bring jobs back. Unfortunately they keep drinking the Kool-Aid and keep sticking Chinese made American Flag stickers on their bumpers while promoting Ford.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 07:17:09 AM by craiglepaige »
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A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #576 on: January 17, 2018, 07:13:56 AM »
Man, I hope everyone remembers this line of conversation when Bernie Sanders rears his ugly head again.

partgypsy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #577 on: January 17, 2018, 07:18:14 AM »
OK, maybe we just disagree on what are basics that government should provide. In addition to defense, roads/infrastructure, public education, I would add universal healthcare coverage. This would actually spur free enterprise, because people would feel free to leave their job that gives them healthcare coverage, to create their own business or work for themselves. It's hard to imagine people having "life" liberty and the pursuit of happiness if you can't get affordable medical care.

I disagree anyone is "owed" a job. I think governments should work towards a healthy vibrant economy, and a country with high unemployment, high disparity (lots of low income workers and fewer middle class) is not a healthy economy. Governments can do their part by ensuring lack of corruption, public education, and R & D. But any one person is not guaranteed a job. No one is going to give you a job.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 07:27:48 AM by partgypsy »

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #578 on: January 17, 2018, 07:45:40 AM »
NAFTA withdrawal would result in the loss of 3 million jobs, but hey....fuck Canada, right? #MAGA

I don't believe those reports.

Just because it's a report you don't like doesn't mean it's not true.  Jesus Christ...another perfect example of why people have a hard time with you Trump supporters.  We provide numbers, data, etc. from people who STUDY THESE THINGS FOR A LIVING and you guys are just like, "NOPE.  I don't believe it."  This is perhaps the most frustrating part of the Trump presidency - dismissing reports that are negative of the President or his agenda.
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Milizard

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #579 on: January 17, 2018, 07:56:52 AM »
It's hard to cite a very long run of prosperity under protectionism because there's different political factors (reconstruction starting in 1865), different currency bases (gold standard, bimetalism, transition to fiat), wars, famines, etc.  The GOP was most protectionist from the beginning (Lincoln) up until the mid 20th century.  Obviously this includes the long depression in the 1870s, some pretty bad years in the 1890s.  I think McKinley gave us some great years.  But again, it's hard to assign the entire shape of the US economy based on trade policies because it's just one input in a very long equation.  So I can't name a country and give you a solid 30 years and say "obviously their protectionist trade policies led to prosperity! Hooray!"  Just like you can't say any single economic policy did that, because we have less than 300 years of capitalist history and, again, there's too much happening.  What I do believe is that free trade leads to a race to the bottom.  It incentivizes countries to participate in a race to the bottom that exploits workers, trashes the environment, and leaves workers in wealthier countries with no chance to earn a living (which leads to crime, drug abuse, the break up of families, and an American Dream out of reach).  You cite the Corn Laws as an example even though in my previous post I said we should reinstitute trade agreements based on agriculture.  Ricardo is correct that comparative advantage makes trade worthwhile when there are serious surpluses or natural advantages.  So we can send Mexico apples and they can send us avocados.  I'm all for that.  What I'm NOT for is a car company building a car in Mexico and then sending it to Michigan while we drive by our shuttered car factories.  Fuck that.  So, like I said, I'm with Crazy Bernie and the far left.  I'm with McKinley and the GOP of old.  Most importantly, I'm with the guy currently in the Oval Office.  We are going to use American workers to ignite the greatest period of American prosperity.  We are going to restore people's dignity with real work and close our trade deficit.  I actually love your posts, sol.  You're one of the most entertaining people on the forum.  If memory serves, you are a government employee?  And you live in the PNW?  Let me tell you, you live a WORLD away from the struggling towns in the Midwest where people cannot find work.

As a fellow Michigander, there's much that I agree with here. I won't get into the automotive industry,  as I think there are other factors involved--*cough, unions.  I don't believe the guy in the oval office really gives a shit about us, but I think that reexamining all these trade agreements that seem to alwsys be reflexively supported is a good thing. Blowing them up, is not, but making sure we aren't shooting ourselves in the foot is.

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #580 on: January 17, 2018, 07:59:50 AM »
Ricardo is correct that comparative advantage makes trade worthwhile when there are serious surpluses or natural advantages.    So we can send Mexico apples and they can send us avocados.  I'm all for that.  What I'm NOT for is a car company building a car in Mexico and then sending it to Michigan while we drive by our shuttered car factories.  Fuck that.

Unskilled labour at very cheap rates is a serious surplus/natural advantage that other countries have.  That's why most of this work has moved out of the US.  The strength of the American economy is in skilled and trained labour.  That's what you should focus on selling.

You just said that you were for taking advantage of surpluses and advantages.  Notice how there aren't any avocado farms near you?  That's because it makes more sense to grow them in a tropical country.  Just like it makes more sense to build a car in a country with cheap labour.  Your main concern seems to be about change (you don't like it) rather than taking advantages of existing surpluses and advantages.



We are going to use American workers to ignite the greatest period of American prosperity.

See, here is where your argument of protectionism runs into shaky ground.  When you introduce tariffs, you create a competitive advantage for goods produced in the country of origin.  You do this by artificially driving up the price of goods or services imported until it's not economically viable to buy them.  That raises the costs for everyone in the country.  The people who have brand spanking new unskilled labour jobs now need to pay 30% more to own a car.  The net impact of this is to reduce standard of living since people can afford less.  Is that really your goal?

Not only that, but tariffs don't work one way.  When you negotiate a tariff with another country (say on cars) they tend to impose tariffs on you (say on software exports).  All of a sudden you're losing skilled jobs in order to protect unskilled ones.  Is that really your goal?

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #581 on: January 17, 2018, 08:00:58 AM »
"Free market capitalist" Republicans want Americans to only buy certain products?  That's, uh, not how capitalism works.  Please pick one.
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ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #582 on: January 17, 2018, 08:12:30 AM »
NAFTA withdrawal would result in the loss of 3 million jobs, but hey....fuck Canada, right? #MAGA

I don't believe those reports.

Just because it's a report you don't like doesn't mean it's not true.  Jesus Christ...another perfect example of why people have a hard time with you Trump supporters.  We provide numbers, data, etc. from people who STUDY THESE THINGS FOR A LIVING and you guys are just like, "NOPE.  I don't believe it."  This is perhaps the most frustrating part of the Trump presidency - dismissing reports that are negative of the President or his agenda.

Cheap Solar is doing a bad job of articulating it, but has it occurred to you that the data is for the whole nation, whereas CheapSolar is discussing local, perhaps even regional conditions. Your charts don't line up with what he's experiencing. Now, he is making the mistake of extrapolating those conditions to the country as a whole, whereas you're making the mistake of assuming the average condition of the whole country is what the rust belt is like. You're both right, and you're both wrong. Being condescending jackasses to eachother accomplishes nothing.

That said, as someone who believes in free markets, it's really too bad for the rust belt. Sorry, the world changed and the basis of your prosperity has left or changed. Adapt or die. You are not entitled to a $85k factory job within 25 miles of where you were born or where your last one was. Economic migration has been a fact of life for millennia, even into the last century. The obliteration of the economy of the rest of the world in the 1940's created a temporary respite from that, allowing 2, maybe 3 generations to find work and live out their lives in one area, but that is far from the norm.




JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #583 on: January 17, 2018, 08:21:23 AM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Milizard

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #584 on: January 17, 2018, 08:25:08 AM »
Ricardo is correct that comparative advantage makes trade worthwhile when there are serious surpluses or natural advantages.    So we can send Mexico apples and they can send us avocados.  I'm all for that.  What I'm NOT for is a car company building a car in Mexico and then sending it to Michigan while we drive by our shuttered car factories.  Fuck that.

Unskilled labour at very cheap rates is a serious surplus/natural advantage that other countries have.  That's why most of this work has moved out of the US.  The strength of the American economy is in skilled and trained labour.  That's what you should focus on selling.

You just said that you were for taking advantage of surpluses and advantages.  Notice how there aren't any avocado farms near you?  That's because it makes more sense to grow them in a tropical country.  Just like it makes more sense to build a car in a country with cheap labour.  Your main concern seems to be about change (you don't like it) rather than taking advantages of existing surpluses and advantages.



We are going to use American workers to ignite the greatest period of American prosperity.

See, here is where your argument of protectionism runs into shaky ground.  When you introduce tariffs, you create a competitive advantage for goods produced in the country of origin.  You do this by artificially driving up the price of goods or services imported until it's not economically viable to buy them.  That raises the costs for everyone in the country.  The people who have brand spanking new unskilled labour jobs now need to pay 30% more to own a car.  The net impact of this is to reduce standard of living since people can afford less.  Is that really your goal?

Not only that, but tariffs don't work one way.  When you negotiate a tariff with another country (say on cars) they tend to impose tariffs on you (say on software exports).  All of a sudden you're losing skilled jobs in order to protect unskilled ones.  Is that really your goal?

Re: tariffs
Perhaps adding tariffs to the price of goods make them better reflect the cost , including environmental costs, of making shit and shipping it all the way to the other side of the world.  Maybe that would mean less shit is produced, and subsequently thrown away, which as a moderate environmentalist, I feel is a good thing. On the other hand, economic interdependancy between nations is also a good thing in order to prevent war.

craiglepaige

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #585 on: January 17, 2018, 08:32:44 AM »
NAFTA withdrawal would result in the loss of 3 million jobs, but hey....fuck Canada, right? #MAGA

I don't believe those reports.

Just because it's a report you don't like doesn't mean it's not true.  Jesus Christ...another perfect example of why people have a hard time with you Trump supporters.  We provide numbers, data, etc. from people who STUDY THESE THINGS FOR A LIVING and you guys are just like, "NOPE.  I don't believe it."  This is perhaps the most frustrating part of the Trump presidency - dismissing reports that are negative of the President or his agenda.

Cheap Solar is doing a bad job of articulating it, but has it occurred to you that the data is for the whole nation, whereas CheapSolar is discussing local, perhaps even regional conditions. Your charts don't line up with what he's experiencing. Now, he is making the mistake of extrapolating those conditions to the country as a whole, whereas you're making the mistake of assuming the average condition of the whole country is what the rust belt is like. You're both right, and you're both wrong. Being condescending jackasses to eachother accomplishes nothing.

That said, as someone who believes in free markets, it's really too bad for the rust belt. Sorry, the world changed and the basis of your prosperity has left or changed. Adapt or die. You are not entitled to a $85k factory job within 25 miles of where you were born or where your last one was. Economic migration has been a fact of life for millennia, even into the last century. The obliteration of the economy of the rest of the world in the 1940's created a temporary respite from that, allowing 2, maybe 3 generations to find work and live out their lives in one area, but that is far from the norm.


^^^ This.  Great point.

As someone from the rustbelt, same as CheapScholar, I completely understand the destructive nature of globalization, although I moved here in '94, by which point a lot of fhe damage had already been done.

What I don't understand is, as I pointed above, the desire by the people that were left behind to still want to buy/promote the companies that did this to them.

Again, I'm in the auto industry, so this is what I relate to. For example, it's baffling that my FIL has only ever driven GM products because his father worked at the GM plant and raised a family from this job. Then the plant closed down and production moved to Mexico and he still blames the Japanese for the causing of the plant closing. His way of showing disdain is to only buy GM products. What?????

It was funny once my wife and I were married, she bought a Honda CR-V. Needless to say he questioned the purchase and hinted at not supporting American made products. I was happy to tell him that the Honda CR-V was assembled in our own state, and even pointed out the sticker on the doorsill that said so.

He still buys GM and I bug whatever is cheap and reliable. We don't talk car production much nowadays.

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Milizard

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #586 on: January 17, 2018, 08:48:38 AM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.

JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #587 on: January 17, 2018, 08:51:13 AM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.

Is it society's responsibility to make sure all industries stay relevant?  Horse trainers, buggy manufacturers, VCR repairs have all gone by the wayside.  It happens.  Industry changes.

It can be complicated, absolutely. I'm saying that I think the sense of entitlement is absurd.

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #588 on: January 17, 2018, 08:52:40 AM »
Because when you're in a state like Michigan that is built historically on making stuff, U6 unemployment of over 10% is still REALLY fucking high.  Because those people don't have income and don't spend money, and then it's hard for others to build businesses to serve others.  And realize that Michigan had population growth of only .80% last year, one of the lowest in the country.  People (especially the young) are leaving the state because (to sound like Trump) our jobs went to fucking Mexico.

Maybe Michigan is just a really unfortunate state?

I mean I've heard this exact same argument from people in West Virginia, about coal mines.  And California, after the gold rush.  And Alaska, when the price of oil dropped.  Even my own city, when the railroad relocated the western terminus to Seattle, went through a period of dismal economic prospects and never fully recovered.  My point is only that capitalism requires creative destruction.  Industries rise and fall, and it hurts when they fall.  Some places are going to lose out.  Like Detroit.

I think the principle of what CheapScholar is saying should be obvious. Keep jobs here, pay a good wage and have locals support locals.

In paper it should work. Unfortunately corporations don't give a shit about principles and they only care about the bottom line.  So you have all of them sending their manufacturing jobs abroad. 

Protectionism is a seductive lie.  It makes things worse for workers, not better.  It sounds good on the face of it to keep jobs locally, but in every case for which we have good economic data the net impact is negative.  You don't help your economy grow by forcing goods to be produced inefficiently.  That tends to raise the cost of goods more than it raises the cost of wages (both of which are bad for businesses, btw), and the workers end up with a lower standard of living.

Free trade solves this problem.  It allows goods to be produced in the most optimal way.  It keeps prices lower.  Do you really believe you could buy 99 cent tshirts at Walmart if we required all clothing to be manufactured in the US? 

There are of course other down sides to free trade, like environmental destruction and shitty working conditions in free trade zones, but these are the price of first world prosperity.  America benefits from cheap foreign labor.  Some American workers get paid less, but everyone gets to buy more.  On balance, this helps the economy.

If Michigan successfully reclaimed all of their auto manufacturing jobs, it would absolutely be a death sentence for American auto manufacturers.  Protectionists are asking us to kill the very thing they love.

Milizard

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #589 on: January 17, 2018, 08:58:52 AM »
As someone who's moved across the country for work, I find the notion of "we deserve good jobs to be given to us at home" to be laughable...

Where does it stop, though? Would you move to India or China?  There is the family support factor as well.  It may not be an issue for you in your particular place in life, but it can be a huge factor for others--support with childcare (schools and snowdays) and/or eldercare (taking a declining parent to doctor appointments).

I'm not saying that you should never have to expect to move, but that it can be much more complicated than just moving a single you.

Is it society's responsibility to make sure all industries stay relevant?  Horse trainers, buggy manufacturers, VCR repairs have all gone by the wayside.  It happens.  Industry changes.

It can be complicated, absolutely. I'm saying that I think the sense of entitlement is absurd.

We aren't talking about an industry that has become irrelevant,  though, we are talking about one that has moved farther away from it's customers.
I'm not going to argue for keeping the auto makers in Michigan,  though. I still see auto plants in other states. I think it has to do with the UAW and it's shitty practices, at least somewhat.  Unions were good and useful, until they went too far.

CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #590 on: January 17, 2018, 08:58:58 AM »
I'm not saying anyone has a right to employment.  I don't know where people keep getting that idea.  If auto makers face a decline in sales due to market demand then, sure, some workers need to shift into different sectors and that's a natural part of a capitalist economy.  I'm not submitting that people have a natural or legal right to a job or a specific wage; the 50k salary was just some round arbitrary number.  I don't know what auto makers made before NAFTA adjusted for inflation.  Fortunately for me, I earned my JD and have a nice life.  I think it's funny that someone responds to my auto arguments with an article on coal.  Hard to respond when we are all over the map like this, but yeah, I think coal is a dying industry and the best Trump can do is try to sustain it to pre-Obama numbers for maybe a decade until renewable energy becomes cheaper.  The difference is, coal is being replaced by other forms of energy and it's conceivable that protectionist policies could force solar panels and wind turbines to be produced in the USA (God I hope so).  That's different in the auto example where I say the cars we previously produced in Michigan are now being made in Mexico and then sold back to us.  Totally different things.

Now, explore Ricardo and comparative advantage.  You're saying that cheap labor is a natural advantage for a country.  First of all, no.  Paying people a shit wage and then dumping products into a foreign market is not a natural advantage.  Especially when you get into currency manipulation and the vale of socialized medicine that other countries provide their citizens.  Sunshine is a natural advantage and I keep saying I'm all for agricultural free trade but it's getting lost in the noise.  I love avocados.

Back to the original question, yes, I am embarrassed I voted Republican.  I'm embarrassed I voted for W and he led us into a stupid war.  I'm very embarrassed I volunteered on Willard Mitt Romney's campaign in Michigan.  He could have won the state had he campaigned protectionist but he wasn't smart like Trump.  I'm too young to have voted before 1998, but I'm embarrassed Republican members of congress voted for NAFTA.  More Democrats in the House and Senate voted AGAINST NAFTA than for it.  I applaud them.  To a point above, I agree that trade unions are a part of this equation and it's clear the increasing wages helped lead to the destruction of the domestic auto sector and probably NAFTA itself.  That doesn't make Free Trade right and it doesn't make protectionism incompatible with capitalism.  I could also start posting articles that show the jobs lost due to NAFTA.  And when I say that Michigan has U6 unemployment of over 10% and that even U6 has problems I'm just answered with more article links and "you're stupid, you don't read our data!"

But I'm not embarrassed for voting for Trump.  He's the best negotiator we could have.  Even IF Mitt ran as a protectionist and WON, can you imagine that pansy trying to be tough and renegotiate NAFTA?  Total joke.  Perhaps Trump can salvage NAFTA and make it a bad financial prospect for companies to make cars in Mexico and ship them over the boarder while keeping agriculture in place.  Trump also seems to be against the NAFTA provision not letting federal governments favor procurement from their own domestic companies.  If Trump can't get both of those things I expect him to notify Mexico and Canada that we are leaving NAFTA (I hope via twitter and I hope he has a great joke to go with it).  This will start the 6 month warning to withdraw.  And we all know that's how Trump negotiates.  It's the Art of the Deal!  And Trudeau and Nieto will have to fly to DC and beg my President behind closed doors to make a deal on NAFTA.  And at the end of the day, as sure as the sun will come up tomorrow, Trump will renegotiate a great deal that protects the American auto industry and provides jobs for Americans ushering a revival of the rust belt.  Trump will make Trudeau and Nieto get on their hands and knees and beg, and then he will hold rallies across the mitten state and tell jokes about it.  And we will stand in lines outside stadiums just to get in.  MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 09:02:38 AM by CheapScholar »

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #591 on: January 17, 2018, 09:01:38 AM »
Ricardo is correct that comparative advantage makes trade worthwhile when there are serious surpluses or natural advantages.    So we can send Mexico apples and they can send us avocados.  I'm all for that.  What I'm NOT for is a car company building a car in Mexico and then sending it to Michigan while we drive by our shuttered car factories.  Fuck that.

Unskilled labour at very cheap rates is a serious surplus/natural advantage that other countries have.  That's why most of this work has moved out of the US.  The strength of the American economy is in skilled and trained labour.  That's what you should focus on selling.

You just said that you were for taking advantage of surpluses and advantages.  Notice how there aren't any avocado farms near you?  That's because it makes more sense to grow them in a tropical country.  Just like it makes more sense to build a car in a country with cheap labour.  Your main concern seems to be about change (you don't like it) rather than taking advantages of existing surpluses and advantages.



We are going to use American workers to ignite the greatest period of American prosperity.

See, here is where your argument of protectionism runs into shaky ground.  When you introduce tariffs, you create a competitive advantage for goods produced in the country of origin.  You do this by artificially driving up the price of goods or services imported until it's not economically viable to buy them.  That raises the costs for everyone in the country.  The people who have brand spanking new unskilled labour jobs now need to pay 30% more to own a car.  The net impact of this is to reduce standard of living since people can afford less.  Is that really your goal?

Not only that, but tariffs don't work one way.  When you negotiate a tariff with another country (say on cars) they tend to impose tariffs on you (say on software exports).  All of a sudden you're losing skilled jobs in order to protect unskilled ones.  Is that really your goal?

Re: tariffs
Perhaps adding tariffs to the price of goods make them better reflect the cost , including environmental costs, of making shit and shipping it all the way to the other side of the world.  Maybe that would mean less shit is produced, and subsequently thrown away, which as a moderate environmentalist, I feel is a good thing. On the other hand, economic interdependancy between nations is also a good thing in order to prevent war.

Agreed.  I'm all for less consumption, and shipping jobs overseas is also shorthand for offloading manufacturing pollution.  I'm not entirely convinced that tariffs cause wars either.

That said, I was responding to a post about how tariffs were going to 'increase American prosperity' . . . and it seems pretty clear that raising prices across the country, and trading high paid skilled for med-low paid unskilled jobs (likely subject to obsolescence through robotics in the near future) will not do that.

craiglepaige

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #592 on: January 17, 2018, 09:10:47 AM »
Sol - comparing vehicle manufacturing to coal is ridiculous.  Coal, as we all know, is a dying form of energy. Cars are not getting replaced by personal ariplanes or Star Trek molecular transporters.

Again, if you are not from the rust belt, maybe it doesn't make sense. But to say that if Michigan was to acquire back all of the jobs it lost would be the end of the auto industry is rather difficult to grasp.  Maybe the automakers won't make as much profit, but it won't really die.

Maybe Tesla would prove my point.
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JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #593 on: January 17, 2018, 09:12:37 AM »
I'm not saying anyone has a right to employment.  I don't know where people keep getting that idea.

Probably when you posted this:

he should have a steady salary at the Ford plant making 50K and benefits.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 09:16:39 AM by JLee »

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #594 on: January 17, 2018, 09:15:57 AM »
I'm not saying anyone has a right to employment.  I don't know where people keep getting that idea.

really?

he should have a steady salary at the Ford plant making 50K and benefits.

To be fair, CheapScholar doesn't argue that this is a right, just something that should happen.

CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #595 on: January 17, 2018, 09:19:04 AM »
I'm not saying anyone has a right to employment.  I don't know where people keep getting that idea.

really?

he should have a steady salary at the Ford plant making 50K and benefits.

Should in theory.  No legal right.  Again, I used 50k somewhat arbitrarily because it's a lot better than making minimum wage at Wal-Mart. 

I just bought a pair of LL Bean boots recently.  Hand stitched and made in Maine.  Only $85.  Why can't we make shoes in America?  Why do we have to buy shit Nike shoes made by a poor woman in Southeast Asia who was paid shit wages working 12 hour days and possibly raped in the company bathroom?  Why can't we make iPhones in Wisconsin?  Go ahead and keep posting your articles though.  I keep looking at the 2016 electoral map and laughing my ass off.

CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #596 on: January 17, 2018, 09:20:12 AM »
I'm not saying anyone has a right to employment.  I don't know where people keep getting that idea.

really?

he should have a steady salary at the Ford plant making 50K and benefits.


To be fair, CheapScholar doesn't argue that this is a right, just something that should happen.

Damn, thank you!  Can't believe I need a Canadian to back my ass up!!!

craiglepaige

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #597 on: January 17, 2018, 09:29:15 AM »
I'm not saying anyone has a right to employment.  I don't know where people keep getting that idea.

really?

he should have a steady salary at the Ford plant making 50K and benefits.


I just bought a pair of LL Bean boots recently.  Hand stitched and made in Maine.  Only $85.  Why can't we make shoes in America?  Why do we have to buy shit Nike shoes made by a poor woman in Southeast Asia who was paid shit wages working 12 hour days and possibly raped in the company bathroom? 


One would think that it was for cheaper prices, but that's not the case. Nike shoes, like a lot of other sneakers, are insanely expensive.

 I'm made fun of by my brothers and friends because I don't wear Nikes or any other branded sneaker, unless I get them at the thrift shop. They would rather pay full price for a shoe than buy used or buy non-brand. Somehow getting taken by the sneaker companies is a good thing. I guess the ads work.

I didn't know LL Bean boots were made in the USA, thanks for letting me know. I need work boots.
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A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #598 on: January 17, 2018, 09:32:36 AM »
I'm not saying anyone has a right to employment.  I don't know where people keep getting that idea.

really?

he should have a steady salary at the Ford plant making 50K and benefits.

Should in theory.  No legal right.  Again, I used 50k somewhat arbitrarily because it's a lot better than making minimum wage at Wal-Mart. 

I just bought a pair of LL Bean boots recently.  Hand stitched and made in Maine.  Only $85.  Why can't we make shoes in America?  Why do we have to buy shit Nike shoes made by a poor woman in Southeast Asia who was paid shit wages working 12 hour days and possibly raped in the company bathroom?  Why can't we make iPhones in Wisconsin?  Go ahead and keep posting your articles though.  I keep looking at the 2016 electoral map and laughing my ass off.

I see a lot of LL Bean boots and similar wear, but it's mostly because I work among relatively wealthy, privileged urban workers. For a lot of families, $85 is a lot of money, especially when you are talking about outfitting multiple people in expensive boots. And everything ELSE will be getting more expensive, too, and most likely lower quality because of the reduced competition.

I don't mind paying higher prices for products. It's better than paying taxes that get sent out as income transfers, IMO. But plenty of people wouldn't be able to afford it, at least not without a lot of struggle.

the_fixer

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #599 on: January 17, 2018, 09:36:17 AM »
The global economy is a tough nut to crack when you are not playing using the same rules.

For example patent infringement and countries such as China selling products at a loss to corner the market (solar for example)

I have moved and adapted as my jobs have been outsourced to other low paying countries and always figured that is just part of the new economy and I adapt or suffer.

However as other countries scale in the global economy and automation continues to advance I find it harder to adapt but fortunately I will be FIRE by then.

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