Author Topic: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?  (Read 88274 times)

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2017, 11:06:22 AM »
Reagan's policies would put him in left field in these political times.     

Reagan was a pinko commie compared to the modem GOP.

How would Reagan have felt about publicly endorsing a child molester for the Senate?

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2017, 11:09:45 AM »
Didn't vote for him but woo boy...reading these responses.  People are bending over backwards to try to justify the *****-grabber in Chief.  And apparently buried their heads in the sand on the Muslim tweets last week, white supremacist crap WRT Charlottesville, etc.

It is pretty mind-blowing to read people justifying the actions of the most-corrupt President since Nixon.

Carry on.

runbikerun

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2017, 11:13:21 AM »
The claim that Trump is a "patriot" is one of the weirder claims to come out of the pro-Trump enthusiasts. He's done more to wreck American standing and American soft power than anyone in modern history, even ending up abusing the mayor of London and the prime minister of the United Kingdom for not being Islamophobic enough. That's the polar opposite of patriotism: he's making it harder for America to achieve its foreign policy goals by ensuring that being seen to be close to him is electoral poison for most leaders.

The UK is frantically trying to figure out how to cancel a state visit planned for 2018, because they're genuinely and legitimately concerned that a visit from the president of Britain's oldest and firmest ally will be met with a never-ending barrage of abuse and invective from the British public. Imagine thousands of people hurling rotten fruit at the presidential motorcade for fifteen miles straight: that's honestly a real possibility. Having Trump abuse her on Twitter has legitimately been the best thing that has happened to Theresa May in the last six months. That's not patriotism: it's catastrophe.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2017, 11:23:13 AM »
I do not regret voting for him at all.  I was initially put off by his manner etc. Generally can't stand watching the narcissistic blowhard. Voted Cruz in the primaries. I still don't like who he is but I'm thrilled with what he's DOING.

What has he done, specifically, that you are thrilled about?

Quote
In retrospect I'm extremely glad I had the opportunity to vote for the Great Orange Swamp-Drainer and will do it again in 3yrs! For the first time since at least Reagan we have an unapologetic hard-charging dam' the torpedoes Patriot in the White House.

Quote
Shortly before Election Day last year, Donald Trump rolled out a package of ethics reforms that he promised to implement as president, using for the first time a now-famous phrase: “drain the swamp.”

A year later and nearly nine months into his presidency, Trump has failed to deliver on most of those reforms. Of a five-point list of proposals he unveiled to tighten the rules for Washington lobbying, only one has been fully implemented.

And rather than draining the swamp, many Washington lobbyists say business is better than ever. Spending on lobbying in Washington totaled almost $1.7 billion in the first half of the year, the highest since 2012, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/19/trump-drain-swamp-promises-243924

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Corey Lewandowski, who worked as Trump’s campaign manager, moved to Washington, D.C., and started a Beltway lobbying firm, where he accepted lots of money from special interests that were trying to influence Trump. Meanwhile, The New York Times reported, “Established K Street firms were grabbing any Trump people they could find: Jim Murphy, Trump’s former political director, joined the lobbying giant BakerHostetler, while another firm, Fidelis Government Relations, struck up a partnership with Bill Smith, Mike Pence’s former chief of staff. All told, close to 20 ex-aides of Trump, friends, and hangers-on had made their way into Washington’s influence business.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/09/meet-the-new-swamp/540540/

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He has already spent more than two months worth of his time in office at one of the golf properties in which he has a financial stake. Because he refuses to fully divest his financial interests, each trip to a Trump-owned commercial property essentially forces the American people to deposit funds into his families’ bank account. His large entourage of staff and security personnel also pay lodging and meal expenses at these Trump properties with taxpayer funds.

So 1) what has he done that you are trilled about?

And 2) How can you say with a straight face he's "drained the swamp?"

cliffhanger

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2017, 11:24:12 AM »
The narrative that anyone who votes Republican is automatically racist, xenophobic etc. is certainly pervasive, but it's also unbelievably insulting and frankly childish.

Over the past year, I have had a personal shift in my overarching mindset that has affected what I think and how I act, particularly when it comes to politics and general social issues. Last year, I may not have called a Trump supporter a racist to their face, but I was definitely thinking it. I was so quick to judge without considering what other reasons could exist for making someone want to align with him (even if they were not good reasons). I do not rush to judgment anymore.

I think this speaks to extreme polarity though. I have what I'd consider to be far-left friends who think anyone right of here is a racist, fascist, Nazi sympathizer. I also have friends who think anyone who didn't vote Trump are tree-hugging Lefty libtards. (Their words, not mine.)

The inability of people to empathize with or understand people from outside their particular section of the spectrum is an issue that I doubt will ever be fixed.

+1

This has been perhaps the most disheartening thing about the past year or so. We talk about Trump supporters being in a bubble all the time, but there is also a second bubble full of anti-Trump folks. Neither of which try or care to understand the other side. We've seen politically motivated violence rise, I think in part because we dehumanize the other side. This is truly awful behavior that needs to stop.

runbikerun

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #55 on: December 04, 2017, 11:35:33 AM »
If you vote for a racist candidate running a racist campaign based on racist policies, I have little sympathy for your claims that you're being unfairly tarred as racist.

cliffhanger

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #56 on: December 04, 2017, 11:41:32 AM »
If you vote for a racist candidate running a racist campaign based on racist policies, I have little sympathy for your claims that you're being unfairly tarred as racist.

Name a specific racist policy that the Trump administration has implemented. No one takes your virtue signaling seriously.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #57 on: December 04, 2017, 11:41:50 AM »
If you vote for a racist candidate running a racist campaign based on racist policies, I have little sympathy for your claims that you're being unfairly tarred as racist.

If I were going to "be fair" to them, I'd say something like, "Well, they're just falling for racist dog whistles.  They don't know they're being racist because it's not explicit."

That's the only "defense" I've got.

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #58 on: December 04, 2017, 11:44:24 AM »
If you vote for a racist candidate running a racist campaign based on racist policies, I have little sympathy for your claims that you're being unfairly tarred as racist.

Name a specific racist policy that the Trump administration has implemented. No one takes your virtue signaling seriously.

Wait, are you accepting that he's a racist candidate who ran a racist campaign, but protesting the characterization of racist policies?

How about the policy of defending Nazis?  Was that racist enough for you?

runbikerun

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #59 on: December 04, 2017, 11:45:42 AM »
If you vote for a racist candidate running a racist campaign based on racist policies, I have little sympathy for your claims that you're being unfairly tarred as racist.

Name a specific racist policy that the Trump administration has implemented. No one takes your virtue signaling seriously.

I'm not bothering with anyone who thinks using the phrase 'virtue signalling' means they've made a point.

surfhb

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #60 on: December 04, 2017, 11:48:36 AM »
If you vote for a racist candidate running a racist campaign based on racist policies, I have little sympathy for your claims that you're being unfairly tarred as racist.

Name a specific racist policy that the Trump administration has implemented. No one takes your virtue signaling seriously.

Oh Stop it!    Obviously no one is talking about Trump proposing blatantly racist polices.    We have laws and courts for stuff like this.   

Were talking about the power of his words and rhetoric

Kris

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #61 on: December 04, 2017, 11:54:58 AM »
I have three questions for all the non-racist Trump supporters on here.

1) Do you believe Barack Obama was born in the United States?

2) Do you believe Barack Obama is a Christian?

3) Do you believe it is acceptable that Donald Trump has asserted on numerous occasions that Obama was not born in this country and has suggested repeatedly that he is actually a Muslim?

cliffhanger

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #62 on: December 04, 2017, 11:55:53 AM »
If you vote for a racist candidate running a racist campaign based on racist policies, I have little sympathy for your claims that you're being unfairly tarred as racist.

Name a specific racist policy that the Trump administration has implemented. No one takes your virtue signaling seriously.

Wait, are you accepting that he's a racist candidate who ran a racist campaign, but protesting the characterization of racist policies?

How about the policy of defending Nazis?  Was that racist enough for you?

No, I don't accept the assertion that he was a racist candidate who ran a racist campaign. My point is that if he is truly racist, why is there no evidence that he has used his presidency to push racist policy? People use racist so much without any underlying evidence that others will stop believe all claims of racism. The only people harmed by this are the real victims of racist acts.

I've never supported Trump's statements of the 'good people on both sides' etc. To say he ran a racist campaign on this is pretty disingenuous imo

runbikerun

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #63 on: December 04, 2017, 12:02:23 PM »
If you vote for a racist candidate running a racist campaign based on racist policies, I have little sympathy for your claims that you're being unfairly tarred as racist.

Name a specific racist policy that the Trump administration has implemented. No one takes your virtue signaling seriously.

Wait, are you accepting that he's a racist candidate who ran a racist campaign, but protesting the characterization of racist policies?

How about the policy of defending Nazis?  Was that racist enough for you?

No, I don't accept the assertion that he was a racist candidate who ran a racist campaign. My point is that if he is truly racist, why is there no evidence that he has used his presidency to push racist policy? People use racist so much without any underlying evidence that others will stop believe all claims of racism. The only people harmed by this are the real victims of racist acts.

I've never supported Trump's statements of the 'good people on both sides' etc. To say he ran a racist campaign on this is pretty disingenuous imo

He ran a racist campaign by:

-Claiming Obama wasn't really American.
-Scapegoating Mexicans.
-Accusing Gonzalo Curiel of bias based on his ethnic heritage (which was defined by Paul Ryan as "the textbook definition of a racist comment.")
-Scapegoating Muslims.
-Insulting a Gold Star family on the basis of their religion.
-Instituting a travel ban as one of his very first actions which specifically targeted Muslims.

But all of this is neither here nor there, because you no doubt know about all of this and don't regard it as racist. There's nothing to be gained from discussing this, because your definition of racism is so narrow as to be meaningless.

LibrarIan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #64 on: December 04, 2017, 12:10:12 PM »

He ran a racist campaign by:

-Claiming Obama wasn't really American.
-Scapegoating Mexicans.
-Accusing Gonzalo Curiel of bias based on his ethnic heritage (which was defined by Paul Ryan as "the textbook definition of a racist comment.")
-Scapegoating Muslims.
-Insulting a Gold Star family on the basis of their religion.
-Instituting a travel ban as one of his very first actions which specifically targeted Muslims.

But all of this is neither here nor there, because you no doubt know about all of this and don't regard it as racist. There's nothing to be gained from discussing this, because your definition of racism is so narrow as to be meaningless.

About these:

-Claiming Obama wasn't really American. Was this motivated by Barack's race? If so, is he claiming all biracial people aren't American?
-Scapegoating Mexicans. Mexican isn't a race, it's a nationality
-Accusing Gonzalo Curiel of bias based on his ethnic heritage (which was defined by Paul Ryan as "the textbook definition of a racist comment.") Without looking into this at all, this one at least sounds like it could be racially motivated. His name sounding Hispanic and his parents being Hispanics from Mexico and all.
-Scapegoating Muslims. Muslims are not a race.
-Insulting a Gold Star family on the basis of their religion. Religion is not a race.
-Instituting a travel ban as one of his very first actions which specifically targeted Muslims. Muslims are not a race.


So of these, only one seems like it can be specifically racial. Are these others silly and ridiculous? Yes. Nationalistic to the point of absurdity? Possibly. Just all-around ignorant? Yes. Specifically racist? Seems unlikely for most of them.

Although to be fair, I am not certain Trump is "with it" enough to separate one's religion from their race, or vice versa, so *shrug*.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 12:13:23 PM by LibrarIan »

Just Joe

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2017, 12:14:08 PM »
The narrative that anyone who votes Republican is automatically racist, xenophobic etc. is certainly pervasive, but it's also unbelievably insulting and frankly childish.

Over the past year, I have had a personal shift in my overarching mindset that has affected what I think and how I act, particularly when it comes to politics and general social issues. Last year, I may not have called a Trump supporter a racist to their face, but I was definitely thinking it. I was so quick to judge without considering what other reasons could exist for making someone want to align with him (even if they were not good reasons). I do not rush to judgment anymore.

I think this speaks to extreme polarity though. I have what I'd consider to be far-left friends who think anyone right of here is a racist, fascist, Nazi sympathizer. I also have friends who think anyone who didn't vote Trump are tree-hugging Lefty libtards. (Their words, not mine.)

The inability of people to empathize with or understand people from outside their particular section of the spectrum is an issue that I doubt will ever be fixed.

When I listen to snide thinly veiled racist comments about a black president for 8 years then I can be pretty confident about who around me are racists and now with their support for Trump - misogynists. These are not people whom I believe value honesty, manners or fairness. I have no idea how they rationalize their purported Christian beliefs with their support of Trump.

I hear them lecture about all sorts of sins and then profess their support for Trump. Just mind boggling.

cliffhanger

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2017, 12:16:43 PM »
If you vote for a racist candidate running a racist campaign based on racist policies, I have little sympathy for your claims that you're being unfairly tarred as racist.

Name a specific racist policy that the Trump administration has implemented. No one takes your virtue signaling seriously.

Wait, are you accepting that he's a racist candidate who ran a racist campaign, but protesting the characterization of racist policies?

How about the policy of defending Nazis?  Was that racist enough for you?

No, I don't accept the assertion that he was a racist candidate who ran a racist campaign. My point is that if he is truly racist, why is there no evidence that he has used his presidency to push racist policy? People use racist so much without any underlying evidence that others will stop believe all claims of racism. The only people harmed by this are the real victims of racist acts.

I've never supported Trump's statements of the 'good people on both sides' etc. To say he ran a racist campaign on this is pretty disingenuous imo

He ran a racist campaign by:

-Claiming Obama wasn't really American.
-Scapegoating Mexicans.
-Accusing Gonzalo Curiel of bias based on his ethnic heritage (which was defined by Paul Ryan as "the textbook definition of a racist comment.")
-Scapegoating Muslims.
-Insulting a Gold Star family on the basis of their religion.
-Instituting a travel ban as one of his very first actions which specifically targeted Muslims.

But all of this is neither here nor there, because you no doubt know about all of this and don't regard it as racist. There's nothing to be gained from discussing this, because your definition of racism is so narrow as to be meaningless.

Do you want to go through each of these statements individually? I can only offer what I think the reasoning behind his statements were, and how they are not necessarily racist. I do not claim that I support what he said or how he said it. Keep in mind the OP's original question and my answer to it;

It's an honest question.  I'm really curious as to whether anyone voted republican and now regrets it because:
...
6.  General lack of decorum
...

6. Don't like it. D-

This really isn't the proper topic to discuss it though, since this has been rehashed over and over.

I'll give another reason why I do not regret voting for Trump. Folks in the topic have personally attacked me several times already without any underlying evidence to back up their claims. They've insinuated that I'm uneducated, don't care about the environment, racist. My vote for Trump was more reactionary than based on policy, unfortunately. I'm going to continue pushing back against those who are willing to make such ridiculous claims.

runbikerun

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2017, 12:21:48 PM »

He ran a racist campaign by:

-Claiming Obama wasn't really American.
-Scapegoating Mexicans.
-Accusing Gonzalo Curiel of bias based on his ethnic heritage (which was defined by Paul Ryan as "the textbook definition of a racist comment.")
-Scapegoating Muslims.
-Insulting a Gold Star family on the basis of their religion.
-Instituting a travel ban as one of his very first actions which specifically targeted Muslims.

But all of this is neither here nor there, because you no doubt know about all of this and don't regard it as racist. There's nothing to be gained from discussing this, because your definition of racism is so narrow as to be meaningless.

About these:

-Claiming Obama wasn't really American. Was this motivated by Barack's race? If so, is he claiming all biracial people aren't American?
-Scapegoating Mexicans. Mexican isn't a race, it's a nationality
-Accusing Gonzalo Curiel of bias based on his ethnic heritage (which was defined by Paul Ryan as "the textbook definition of a racist comment.") Without looking into this at all, this one at least sounds like it could be racially motivated. His name sounding Hispanic and his parents being Hispanics from Mexico and all.
-Scapegoating Muslims. Muslims are not a race.
-Insulting a Gold Star family on the basis of their religion. Religion is not a race.
-Instituting a travel ban as one of his very first actions which specifically targeted Muslims. Muslims are not a race.


So of these, only one seems like it can be specifically racial. Are these others silly and ridiculous? Yes. Nationalistic to the point of absurdity? Possibly. Just all-around ignorant? Yes. Specifically racist? Seems unlikely for most of them.

Although to be fair, I am not certain Trump is "with it" enough to separate one's religion from their race, or vice versa, so *shrug*.

Assuming I concede the truth of every argument you make, that changes Trump to a bigoted candidate running a bigoted campaign based on bigoted policies. Is that any better?

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2017, 12:24:20 PM »
I'll give another reason why I do not regret voting for Trump. Folks in the topic have personally attacked me several times already without any underlying evidence to back up their claims. They've insinuated that I'm uneducated, don't care about the environment, racist. My vote for Trump was more reactionary than based on policy, unfortunately. I'm going to continue pushing back against those who are willing to make such ridiculous claims.

Because, this might be a shock, candidates are elected largely because of the policies they promise to enact.

I know, I know...novel concept in a democracy.  Supporting a candidate = supporting at least most of their policies.

LibrarIan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #69 on: December 04, 2017, 12:25:03 PM »
Assuming I concede the truth of every argument you make, that changes Trump to a bigoted candidate running a bigoted campaign based on bigoted policies. Is that any better?

It would at least do society the benefit of not minimizing the seriousness of racism and claiming certain behaviors or actions are racist. I do not want actual racism watered down with claims like these.

runbikerun

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #70 on: December 04, 2017, 12:36:39 PM »
Assuming I concede the truth of every argument you make, that changes Trump to a bigoted candidate running a bigoted campaign based on bigoted policies. Is that any better?

It would at least do society the benefit of not minimizing the seriousness of racism and claiming certain behaviors or actions are racist. I do not want actual racism watered down with claims like these.

The stuff Trump has been doing isn't lesser than racism. It's a marginally different shade of vicious bigotry, and calling it racism is a very mild category error, not a whitewashing of racial animus.

cliffhanger

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #71 on: December 04, 2017, 12:37:39 PM »
I'll give another reason why I do not regret voting for Trump. Folks in the topic have personally attacked me several times already without any underlying evidence to back up their claims. They've insinuated that I'm uneducated, don't care about the environment, racist. My vote for Trump was more reactionary than based on policy, unfortunately. I'm going to continue pushing back against those who are willing to make such ridiculous claims.

Because, this might be a shock, candidates are elected largely because of the policies they promise to enact.

I know, I know...novel concept in a democracy.  Supporting a candidate = supporting at least most of their policies.

I don't think this is necessarily exact. You can go out on the street and tell people a bunch a Trump policies/quotes, but say they are Clinton policies/quotes. They will say they support them.

https://youtu.be/IzC-l7tovFk

You are, or course, correct that policies matter. But a large part of this election in particular was cultural, more so than any I've paid attention to.

LibrarIan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #72 on: December 04, 2017, 12:42:22 PM »
Assuming I concede the truth of every argument you make, that changes Trump to a bigoted candidate running a bigoted campaign based on bigoted policies. Is that any better?

It would at least do society the benefit of not minimizing the seriousness of racism and claiming certain behaviors or actions are racist. I do not want actual racism watered down with claims like these.

The stuff Trump has been doing isn't lesser than racism. It's a marginally different shade of vicious bigotry, and calling it racism is a very mild category error, not a whitewashing of racial animus.

I do not disagree with you that he is a bigoted prick. But categorization in this case matters. Calling some of these things racism undercuts the real arguments and points you want to make, because people may write your words off since what you're describing isn't actually racism. It doesn't matter if what Trump is doing is better or worse than racism, it matters that you look like you know what you're talking about when you call him out. And I again insist that this type of rhetoric waters down actual cases of racism.

runbikerun

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #73 on: December 04, 2017, 12:50:35 PM »
I'm comfortable that people whose opinions I have any respect for don't rush to discount my words when I describe Trump as a racist rather than as a definite bigot and almost certain racist who's on record has having said openly racist things

LibrarIan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #74 on: December 04, 2017, 12:56:08 PM »
I'm comfortable that people whose opinions I have any respect for don't rush to discount my words when I describe Trump as a racist rather than as a definite bigot and almost certain racist who's on record has having said openly racist things

You may have respect for their opinions and hold them in high regard, but if those same people offer your opinions respect when you make a claim while not providing any evidence of worth, it raises a lot of questions in my mind. Do these people not value intellectual honesty? Facts? Evidence? If I offer opinions to others and offer poor evidence, I'd have more respect for those people if they found my claims dubious at best.

EDIT: I realized after rereading this that it could come off really combative. That wasn't my intent. But I'll leave it as is.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 01:06:45 PM by LibrarIan »

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #75 on: December 04, 2017, 01:22:03 PM »
I have three questions for all the non-racist Trump supporters on here.

1) Do you believe Barack Obama was born in the United States?

2) Do you believe Barack Obama is a Christian?

3) Do you believe it is acceptable that Donald Trump has asserted on numerous occasions that Obama was not born in this country and has suggested repeatedly that he is actually a Muslim?

My money is you get zero genuine responses to your questions here from Trump voters.

Fireball

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #76 on: December 04, 2017, 01:33:11 PM »
7. I'm not aware of any harm or potential harm to the environment that Trump has done.

Seems like there is some harm or potential harm to the environment here since he's removing protections to national monuments in favor of oil/gas drilling.

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42226752

fluffmuffin

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #77 on: December 04, 2017, 01:55:51 PM »
Your experience is really interesting for me and I have to admit that mine has been the opposite. I'm quite liberal but with a 90% very conservative, trump-voting family.

I have historically given my family the benefit of the doubt when it comes to voting for the current republican party - they are my family. I love them and obviously don't want to think of them as holding beliefs that are anathema to me .

But over the last year (and if I'm honest - the last several years) I have heard increasingly xenophobic and bigoted language coming from my loved ones. I'm having a hard time giving them the benefit of the doubt anymore. When folks (who ancestors for fought for the union in the civil war) begin to talk about "protecting our heritage" in the form of confederate flags or saying that the liberals in Charlottesville shouldn't have protested or (with the straw that broke this camel's back) called Obama "that arrogant black Muslim" I have to admit that there might be racism (or at least Xenophobia) at play here.

And by defending my family for years and saying that they are just strongly anti-abortion I feel like I haven't been doing anyone any favors. I am barely holding it together this holiday season.

Right there with you, StarBright. My two family members who voted for Trump are racist (birthers; believe POC shot by police deserve it; that BLM are a terrorist organization; that the Civil War wasn't about slavery and that some Black people were better off in the Confederacy), xenophobic ("build the wall!" with a delicious side of irony in that they both employ undocumented workers; want to kick out DACA students), and Islamophobic (explicitly want to marginalize/ban Muslim individuals; believe that Islam is a fundamentally violent religion). I don't know whether they've always held these repugnant views, but didn't feel comfortable expressing them until Trump and the far-right wing of the Republican party normalized it; or whether Trump et al. assisted in their bolt to the right. I could rattle off more examples for each of those categories, and don't have the emotional energy to dip my toe into the sludge of misogyny, homophobia, and transphobia.

Neither regrets voting for Trump. One is disappointed that he hasn't done more to drain the swamp/expel Muslims/etc, but he was never going to vote for that lying shrew Hillary. I've done my best to be empathetic and thoughtful and see things from their perspective, and I don't think all Trump voters are AS racist/Islamophobic/etc as the two that I'm closest to...but there's no way around the fact that every single Trump voter saw a campaign that was racist, Islamophobic, anti-disability, and misogynistic, and still voted for him. That's a tacit endorsement of those beliefs.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #78 on: December 04, 2017, 02:00:11 PM »
Someone mentioned Nixon as a comparison for Trump earlier in this thread. I don't that's accurate. He's a lot more like Warren G. Harding in my estimation. The 1920s were a time of roaring stock markets, arrogant wealth, and social division that ended with the Great Depression. I'll let you draw your own conclusions about our near future.

Dabnasty

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #79 on: December 04, 2017, 02:08:22 PM »
To those in this thread piling on and attacking Trump voters, you're defeating what I believe was OP's purpose of having a real discussion. If all you want to do is attack, start your own thread. I understand the frustration you feel but all you're doing is playing whack-a-mole with anyone who dares peek their head out of the ground to have an honest conversation. Even if someone's reasoning is flawed, you need to understand it before you can debate it.

clutchy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #80 on: December 04, 2017, 02:13:31 PM »
To those in this thread piling on and attacking Trump voters, you're defeating what I believe was OP's purpose of having a real discussion. If all you want to do is attack, start your own thread. I understand the frustration you feel but all you're doing is playing whack-a-mole with anyone who dares peek their head out of the ground to have an honest conversation. Even if someone's reasoning is flawed, you need to understand it before you can debate it.


I've voted republican all my life but couldn't do it this time.  I ended up voting for Gary Johnson. 

My biggest issue is that the democrats have no interest in me as a constituent.  I do better under republicans but I tend to care more about the social issues the democrats support like net neutrality and more progressive tax plans(even though it's worse for me). 

I have no interest in living in a wildly unfair society. 

but this straight non-minority gendered white male has no interest in voting for democrats until they start focusing on the core and stop playing identity politics.

runbikerun

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #81 on: December 04, 2017, 02:25:07 PM »
I'm comfortable that people whose opinions I have any respect for don't rush to discount my words when I describe Trump as a racist rather than as a definite bigot and almost certain racist who's on record has having said openly racist things

You may have respect for their opinions and hold them in high regard, but if those same people offer your opinions respect when you make a claim while not providing any evidence of worth, it raises a lot of questions in my mind. Do these people not value intellectual honesty? Facts? Evidence? If I offer opinions to others and offer poor evidence, I'd have more respect for those people if they found my claims dubious at best.

EDIT: I realized after rereading this that it could come off really combative. That wasn't my intent. But I'll leave it as is.

The people I'm referencing are mostly former university debaters, with a couple of world finalists and a world champion among them. There's also a fair few legal professionals and academics. By and large, they are extremely interested in the value of words and the power of persuasive argument.

But that's neither here nor there. We're talking about a man who was sued by the Justice Department for discriminating against black tenants, who spent an obscene amount of money to demand that the Central Park Five be executed (and never apologised following their acquital), who made himself the public face of the claim that America's first black president wasn't really American, and who was called out for racism by the head of his own party during his own election campaign. He's a racist and a bigot.

partgypsy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #82 on: December 04, 2017, 02:25:36 PM »
My impressions of trump voters comes from message boards and responses to articles, where their statements are things like killary, she lost, the liberals are crying, and ignorant statements. I work with veterans and two times in the last couple months, maybe because I'm a blonde female, white older men have come up to me to say things like glad we have trump, followed by something atrocious like got that Muslim out of here, or gesturing to my fellow employees who are black, look at all these blacks, it disgusts me. Trump's going to get rid of these folks, while I feel the color leave my face. There are many reasons I feel trump is unqualified to be president. One of the smaller being signalling the end of civil society, and any sense of a unified values and goals and commonalities in our country.

I don't know if you want to call it racist, bigoted, what have you, but Trump has been signalling, unless you are part of his base, you are not a "real American" you are a 2nd class citizen. This includes everyone from government workers, scientists, Democrats, as well as African Americans, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, immigrants, Muslim, and especially, poor people. He has contempt for anyone not like him.

And he is NOT a patriot, and does not represent American values. He did not serve, none of his kids served, his father was arrested at a white supremacist/Nazi rally, and he has said things as I work at the VA I find personally offensive, such as McCain is not a real hero because he was a prisoner of war, he knows more than the generals, and casting aspersions on parents of  medal of honor recipients. He has no honor. No clue about personal sacrifice, or sacrifice for one's country. He is self-serving and lies constantly. Not white lies or shading, bald faced lies. That alone make him unfit to be the President, and Commander in Chief.   
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 07:32:52 AM by partgypsy »

Dabnasty

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #83 on: December 04, 2017, 02:41:05 PM »
Race, Ethnicity and religion are distinct identifiers but they also have significant overlap. While being anti Muslim may not technically be racist, the majority of those who hold contempt for Muslims are also making judgments based on the color of their skin and where they were born. Among people I know racism and bigotry go hand in hand so it's hard not to see them as one in the same.

This comes into play with Obama's birth certificate and the conspiracy theory that he is a Muslim as well. If he was a white man, do you really think the birther conspiracy would have taken off the way it did? Certain people, who were in fact racist whether they know it or not, were looking for a way to discredit a black person and this was the answer. Others may have joined in because he was a democrat and not because of his skin color so yes, accusing everyone who believed the conspiracy of racism would be incorrect, but that feeling is not without basis.

So it's difficult enough to define race, but then we have the question of what is racism? I would imagine when someone is accused of being racist what they hear is "you think less of other races because of the color of their skin" to which they might respond "no I don't, that would be silly". But what the accuser really means is "you think less of a group of people based on what some people in that group have done and even worse based on what you think certain people in that group have done". For example I've had the conversation more than once where someone supports profiling of middle easterners by the TSA and says "well I'm not racist, I just think that we should search the people who are most likely to be terrorists". To them, their logic is sound but in reality there are no statistics to support that opinion. To me, the fact that they accepted the idea that middle easterners are more likely to be terrorists without doing the research to back it up does make them racist but in a much different way than just hating someone for their skin color/religion/ethnicity.

As someone mentioned earlier WE ARE ALL RACIST. Arguing about whether someone is or isn't racist is pointless because it's a sliding scale. Not only that, it's a 3-dimensional sliding scale.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 02:45:21 PM by Dabnasty »

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #84 on: December 04, 2017, 02:54:14 PM »
I do not regret voting for him at all.  I was initially put off by his manner etc. Generally can't stand watching the narcissistic blowhard. Voted Cruz in the primaries. I still don't like who he is but I'm thrilled with what he's DOING.

In retrospect I'm extremely glad I had the opportunity to vote for the Great Orange Swamp-Drainer and will do it again in 3yrs! For the first time since at least Reagan we have an unapologetic hard-charging dam' the torpedoes Patriot in the White House.

And quit calling me racist. Just proves you've got nothing of substance, so let's sink to the worst of all personal attacks: good old tried-n-true racism, maybe stir in some misogyny for flavor and make snide comments about the South while you're at it. Easy to throw the accusations, placates the ego, places the opposition on defense, and most importantly, prevents any intellectual discourse.
I'm not sure why you're excited about Trump. He seems patriotic enough, but he's an ineffective President and highly polarizing. There are other candidates who would have done a better job (and at this point I might revisit my decision to prefer Trump over Cruz).

You can't really "drain the swamp" just by asserting it. You need to work within the existing power structures.

Quote
1) Do you believe Barack Obama was born in the United States?

2) Do you believe Barack Obama is a Christian?

3) Do you believe it is acceptable that Donald Trump has asserted on numerous occasions that Obama was not born in this country and has suggested repeatedly that he is actually a Muslim?
1. Yeah.
2. No, not really. He seems like he's probably one of those Cafeteria Christians, and probably goes to church for the same reason he doesn't smoke: Michelle badgers him about it. Obama does not strike as a True Believer. I am guessing you are getting at whether I think he's a secret Muslim: No.
3. Acceptable in what sense? It's not the behavior of polite society, so I don't support it.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #85 on: December 04, 2017, 02:59:08 PM »
My biggest issue is that the democrats have no interest in me as a constituent.  I do better under republicans but I tend to care more about the social issues the democrats support like net neutrality and more progressive tax plans(even though it's worse for me). 

I have no interest in living in a wildly unfair society. 

but this straight non-minority gendered white male has no interest in voting for democrats until they start focusing on the core and stop playing identity politics.

What, exactly, are the Democrats doing wrong?

cliffhanger

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #86 on: December 04, 2017, 03:05:25 PM »
7. I'm not aware of any harm or potential harm to the environment that Trump has done.

Seems like there is some harm or potential harm to the environment here since he's removing protections to national monuments in favor of oil/gas drilling.

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42226752

Thanks for finding this, as this topic often challenges my principles. How do we balance the conservation of our land while continuing to allow states and local communities the freedom to choose the best use of that land?

To the best of my knowledge, Bears Ears was already public land (mix of federal and state) when President Obama designated it a National Monument last year. Many of the state republicans believe it was an executive overreach to make this designation, and had been in the process of writing legislation to deal with the land (mix of conservation and development).

Quite frankly, I don't know the answer to what is right. I can think of a few scenarios where I would be supportive and non-supportive of Trump's actions. I also couldn't find if the land is turned over to the state or what the plan is. I simply think there are not enough facts to make an informed decision.

Supportive: It's possible Obama overreached in his designation and included vast swaths of land that are not in the spirit of the antiquities act:

Quote
That the President of the United States is hereby authorized, in his discretion, to declare by public proclamation historic landmarks, historic and prehistoric structures, and other objects of historic or scientific interest that are situated upon the lands owned or controlled by the Government of the United States to be national monuments, and may reserve as a part thereof parcels of land, the limits of which in all cases shall be confined to the smallest area compatible with proper care and management of the objects to be protected

If the land Trump is leaving in the National Monument fall within the scope of the Antiquities Act, I would be supportive of his action.

Opposed to: It's also possible that Trump is overreaching by shrinking this monument. It's possible that he's opening up culturally and historically significant places to development, which I would not be supportive of.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 03:15:20 PM by cliffhanger »

clutchy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #87 on: December 04, 2017, 03:33:39 PM »
My biggest issue is that the democrats have no interest in me as a constituent.  I do better under republicans but I tend to care more about the social issues the democrats support like net neutrality and more progressive tax plans(even though it's worse for me). 

I have no interest in living in a wildly unfair society. 

but this straight non-minority gendered white male has no interest in voting for democrats until they start focusing on the core and stop playing identity politics.

What, exactly, are the Democrats doing wrong?

playing identity politics and focusing in smaller fringe groups instead of driving a national agenda.

jrhampt

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #88 on: December 04, 2017, 03:36:14 PM »
Smaller fringe groups like...women?  I think they're overdoing it on the transgender stuff, but most of the groups they've been focusing on are not exactly fringe.

Wexler

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #89 on: December 04, 2017, 03:47:03 PM »
My biggest issue is that the democrats have no interest in me as a constituent.  I do better under republicans but I tend to care more about the social issues the democrats support like net neutrality and more progressive tax plans(even though it's worse for me). 

I have no interest in living in a wildly unfair society. 

but this straight non-minority gendered white male has no interest in voting for democrats until they start focusing on the core and stop playing identity politics.

What, exactly, are the Democrats doing wrong?

playing identity politics and focusing in smaller fringe groups instead of driving a national agenda.

So we can't have net neutrality because the Democrats didn't suck your dick long enough? 


MOD EDIT: Uh, no. Read forum rule #1
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 08:47:24 PM by arebelspy »

FINate

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #90 on: December 04, 2017, 03:58:38 PM »
[wishing there was a 'leave thread' feature...shoulda known better]

SwordGuy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #91 on: December 04, 2017, 04:28:54 PM »
Smaller fringe groups like...women?  ... but most of the groups they've been focusing on are not exactly fringe.

Small as in "needs aren't important enough to consider", not small as in "not many of them".   
Hope that clarifies the GOP platform for you.


As for the OP's question, No, I don't regret voting Republican.   I vote in the Republican primaries for the most centrist, least fundamentalist, least corporate lackey, and least neo-fascist whack job on the ballot.  I do that in the hope that we might get less objectionable candidates from that party.   

Then I vote Democrat in the general election because the reasonable GOP candidates rarely get past the primaries. :(

surfhb

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #92 on: December 04, 2017, 05:24:37 PM »

He ran a racist campaign by:

-Claiming Obama wasn't really American.
-Scapegoating Mexicans.
-Accusing Gonzalo Curiel of bias based on his ethnic heritage (which was defined by Paul Ryan as "the textbook definition of a racist comment.")
-Scapegoating Muslims.
-Insulting a Gold Star family on the basis of their religion.
-Instituting a travel ban as one of his very first actions which specifically targeted Muslims.

But all of this is neither here nor there, because you no doubt know about all of this and don't regard it as racist. There's nothing to be gained from discussing this, because your definition of racism is so narrow as to be meaningless.

About these:

-Claiming Obama wasn't really American. Was this motivated by Barack's race? If so, is he claiming all biracial people aren't American?
-Scapegoating Mexicans. Mexican isn't a race, it's a nationality
-Accusing Gonzalo Curiel of bias based on his ethnic heritage (which was defined by Paul Ryan as "the textbook definition of a racist comment.") Without looking into this at all, this one at least sounds like it could be racially motivated. His name sounding Hispanic and his parents being Hispanics from Mexico and all.
-Scapegoating Muslims. Muslims are not a race.
-Insulting a Gold Star family on the basis of their religion. Religion is not a race.
-Instituting a travel ban as one of his very first actions which specifically targeted Muslims. Muslims are not a race.


So of these, only one seems like it can be specifically racial. Are these others silly and ridiculous? Yes. Nationalistic to the point of absurdity? Possibly. Just all-around ignorant? Yes. Specifically racist? Seems unlikely for most of them.

Although to be fair, I am not certain Trump is "with it" enough to separate one's religion from their race, or vice versa, so *shrug*.

Assuming I concede the truth of every argument you make, that changes Trump to a bigoted candidate running a bigoted campaign based on bigoted policies. Is that any better?

LOL   Shit!   Touche

scottish

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #93 on: December 04, 2017, 07:48:42 PM »
I find it hard to believe that Trump was elected by a passel of racist, xenophobic Americans because he would put the damn Muslims/Mexicans/Blacks whatever back where they belonged.

I prefer to believe that his supporters are feeling anxiety about:
- economics: job loss (perceived as to developing countries, but also from automation and changing demand)
- national identity:   the US used to be the biggest & best superpower in the world.   China has largely caught up.
- cultural changes:   the internet has changed everything in the way people interact
and so on.

Trump's campaign played to these anxieties.   He blamed the Democrats for all this stuff happening and promised to put things back to the way they were.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 07:53:20 PM by scottish »

clutchy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #94 on: December 04, 2017, 08:04:55 PM »
My biggest issue is that the democrats have no interest in me as a constituent.  I do better under republicans but I tend to care more about the social issues the democrats support like net neutrality and more progressive tax plans(even though it's worse for me). 

I have no interest in living in a wildly unfair society. 

but this straight non-minority gendered white male has no interest in voting for democrats until they start focusing on the core and stop playing identity politics.

What, exactly, are the Democrats doing wrong?

playing identity politics and focusing in smaller fringe groups instead of driving a national agenda.

So we can't have net neutrality because the Democrats didn't suck your dick long enough?
 

They didn't even give me a tickle man...

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #95 on: December 04, 2017, 08:10:08 PM »
I'm amused that pretty much all the financial benefits of Trump's "election" have basically gone to Clinton's voters. Now that he's basically defunded the ACA and killed his own constituents' health insurance to give tax cuts to corporations, Clinton's college-educated white collar investor voters with employer-provided insurance get to enjoy larger dividends. I don't think Trump's voters really thought through what they were doing.

clutchy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #96 on: December 04, 2017, 08:11:52 PM »
Smaller fringe groups like...women?  I think they're overdoing it on the transgender stuff, but most of the groups they've been focusing on are not exactly fringe.

in the attempt to big tent every specific group they've forgetting what it means to be American. 

Focusing on things that differentiate us instead of unite us.  It just sucks. 


Republicans gave up ruling what 20 years ago but atleast I get to keep more of my money. 

JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #97 on: December 04, 2017, 08:12:49 PM »
I find it hard to believe that Trump was elected by a passel of racist, xenophobic Americans because he would put the damn Muslims/Mexicans/Blacks whatever back where they belonged.

I prefer to believe that his supporters are feeling anxiety about:
- economics: job loss (perceived as to developing countries, but also from automation and changing demand)
- national identity:   the US used to be the biggest & best superpower in the world.   China has largely caught up.
- cultural changes:   the internet has changed everything in the way people interact
and so on.

Trump's campaign played to these anxieties.   He blamed the Democrats for all this stuff happening and promised to put things back to the way they were.

If by "national identity" and "cultural changes" you mean that we're ever so slowly inching our way towards a society that's not completely and wholly dominated by rich/white/straight/men, then perhaps you have a point there.

Smaller fringe groups like...women?  I think they're overdoing it on the transgender stuff, but most of the groups they've been focusing on are not exactly fringe.

in the attempt to big tent every specific group they've forgetting what it means to be American. 

Focusing on things that differentiate us instead of unite us.  It just sucks. 


Republicans gave up ruling what 20 years ago but atleast I get to keep more of my money.


You're either part of the 1% or woefully misinformed about recent events.

palerider1858

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #98 on: December 05, 2017, 12:05:49 AM »
No regrets on my (R) vote.

I have no idea if I would vote differently next time not knowing the future political landscape of events, issues and candidates. Are you asking how we would vote if 2020 is a choice between Hillary, Trump and Johnson again?

LibrarIan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #99 on: December 05, 2017, 06:32:22 AM »
I'm comfortable that people whose opinions I have any respect for don't rush to discount my words when I describe Trump as a racist rather than as a definite bigot and almost certain racist who's on record has having said openly racist things

You may have respect for their opinions and hold them in high regard, but if those same people offer your opinions respect when you make a claim while not providing any evidence of worth, it raises a lot of questions in my mind. Do these people not value intellectual honesty? Facts? Evidence? If I offer opinions to others and offer poor evidence, I'd have more respect for those people if they found my claims dubious at best.

EDIT: I realized after rereading this that it could come off really combative. That wasn't my intent. But I'll leave it as is.

The people I'm referencing are mostly former university debaters, with a couple of world finalists and a world champion among them. There's also a fair few legal professionals and academics. By and large, they are extremely interested in the value of words and the power of persuasive argument.

But that's neither here nor there. We're talking about a man who was sued by the Justice Department for discriminating against black tenants, who spent an obscene amount of money to demand that the Central Park Five be executed (and never apologised following their acquital), who made himself the public face of the claim that America's first black president wasn't really American, and who was called out for racism by the head of his own party during his own election campaign. He's a racist and a bigot.

So again, to my point, when making claims during a conversation/debate/argument/whatever about anything (including Trump), back your claim with things relevant to your claim. You claimed he was racist and then proceeded to give numerous points that actually had nothing to do with racism. This kind of approach will turn your audience off because it makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

If I have to spell it out for you, I'm not arguing against your claim that he is racist. I am arguing in favor of citing specific, accurate examples that demonstrate your claim. That is all.