Author Topic: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?  (Read 88281 times)

Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #300 on: December 19, 2017, 01:55:49 PM »
Trump has moderated in many policy dimensions by moving toward mainstream conservative Republican positions. See the ... appointment of judges.

Mainstream conservative Republicans want judges appointed who have never tried a case to verdict in a courtroom, never tried a case in state or federal court, never argued a motion, or conducted a deposition on their own like Petersen?  Is being totally unqualified for a position something that conservative Republicans are really clamoring for?  If so, why?

Do you want judges who have never had any experience other than litigation?  Particularly if their litigation is focused on one area of law? 

There is a lot to be said for having judges that have experience outside of the courtroom.  It won't take long to figure out a courtroom, but a judge that has never had any experience other than practicing litigation is never going to be able to get any practical everyday experience.  Probably doesn't matter when you are handling a car wreck case.  It could matter a lot with a criminal trial or a trial over a commercial dispute. 

That said, Peterson was particularly ill prepared for his questioning.  I assume he just choked in giving his responses.  It'd be hard to be a lawyer of any kind and not know what a motion in limine is; I think he mistakenly gave the impression he didn't know what it was by jumping to the justification of why his lack of courtroom experience should not be a deal breaker.  Similarly with the Daubert standard; my only guess there is that he was not familiar with the pronunciation and his brain froze up when he didn't recognize it immediately.  That's certainly not the first or second most common pronunciation in parts of the country.

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #301 on: December 19, 2017, 02:16:10 PM »
Trump has moderated in many policy dimensions by moving toward mainstream conservative Republican positions. See the ... appointment of judges.

Mainstream conservative Republicans want judges appointed who have never tried a case to verdict in a courtroom, never tried a case in state or federal court, never argued a motion, or conducted a deposition on their own like Petersen?  Is being totally unqualified for a position something that conservative Republicans are really clamoring for?  If so, why?

Do you want judges who have never had any experience other than litigation?  Particularly if their litigation is focused on one area of law?

No, but that's not what I said.



It won't take long to figure out a courtroom[/b

[[Citation Needed]]

Even assuming that I agree with you that a judge will have no problem learning how to do his job while everyone in the courtroom is forced to wait for him to figure out how to do the job the president gave him, doesn't that make it look all the worse that he did so poorly under questioning?  He couldn't be bothered to spend that short period of time to prepare himself for the confirmation hearing?  Or is the argument that he gets flustered easily and can't handle pressure well (good traits for a judge to have)?

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #302 on: December 19, 2017, 02:56:07 PM »
https://www.c-span.org/video/?283224-1/republican-reaction-obama-economic-speech

Facing the worst economic crisis in generations, Republican leaders scoffed at the $1 trillion price tag for relief.

They want to pass a tax cut when the economy is fine and will add $1.5 trillion to the deficit.

This puts to bed, without a shadow of a doubt, that the modern day GOP doesn't give one s*** about deficits or fiscal responsibility.

Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #303 on: December 19, 2017, 03:38:01 PM »
Trump has moderated in many policy dimensions by moving toward mainstream conservative Republican positions. See the ... appointment of judges.

Mainstream conservative Republicans want judges appointed who have never tried a case to verdict in a courtroom, never tried a case in state or federal court, never argued a motion, or conducted a deposition on their own like Petersen?  Is being totally unqualified for a position something that conservative Republicans are really clamoring for?  If so, why?

Do you want judges who have never had any experience other than litigation?  Particularly if their litigation is focused on one area of law?

No, but that's not what I said.



It won't take long to figure out a courtroom[/b

[[Citation Needed]]

I have been in a court room.  It's not rocket science.  And being able to take a deposition is not even a skill a judge needs.  The relevant question is whether the judge can resolve discovery disputes when they come up.  Much easier than taking an effective deposition. 

Also, you know how people get experience being judges?  By being judges.  That's why there are basically crash courses for attorneys becoming judges for the first time.  It's a different job than litigation. 


Even assuming that I agree with you that a judge will have no problem learning how to do his job while everyone in the courtroom is forced to wait for him to figure out how to do the job the president gave him,
  There really won't be any waiting. 

doesn't that make it look all the worse that he did so poorly under questioning?  He couldn't be bothered to spend that short period of time to prepare himself for the confirmation hearing?
I'm not sure it's a short amount of time to prepare for a hearing if you're not naturally gifted at interviews. 

  Or is the argument that he gets flustered easily and can't handle pressure well (good traits for a judge to have)?
 
The argument is that not being a litigator does not mean somebody isn't qualified to be a judge.  Nor does being a litigator necessarily qualify somebody to be a judge.    As far as getting flustered, certainly people that do not get flustered and are impervious to pressure tend to be good at a lot of things (I'm not sure getting flustered when essentially interviewing on camera for a federal judgeship qualifies as "easy"), but on the flip side, i would say it's rare for a judge to get essentially cross examined while they're on the bench. 


Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #304 on: December 19, 2017, 03:41:12 PM »
https://www.c-span.org/video/?283224-1/republican-reaction-obama-economic-speech

Facing the worst economic crisis in generations, Republican leaders scoffed at the $1 trillion price tag for relief.

They want to pass a tax cut when the economy is fine and will add $1.5 trillion to the deficit.

This puts to bed, without a shadow of a doubt, that the modern day GOP doesn't give one s*** about deficits or fiscal responsibility.

Not that republicans are fiscally responsible, but there is a huge difference between the government using a trillion dollars worth of resources versus a government taking 1.5 Trillion dollars less out of the economy, and there's nothing logically inconsistent about being against one but for the other. 

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #305 on: December 19, 2017, 04:21:39 PM »
Not that republicans are fiscally responsible, but there is a huge difference between the government using a trillion dollars worth of resources versus a government taking 1.5 Trillion dollars less out of the economy, and there's nothing logically inconsistent about being against one but for the other.

You clearly don't understand how money works.

In both cases, the plan created debt that will have to be managed and repaid in the future.  In one case they gave the money created by that debt to failing (but too big to fail) US businesses, in the other they are giving it to thriving successful businesses.  Seems very little difference to me.

ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #306 on: December 19, 2017, 06:18:39 PM »
Not that republicans are fiscally responsible, but there is a huge difference between the government using a trillion dollars worth of resources versus a government taking 1.5 Trillion dollars less out of the economy, and there's nothing logically inconsistent about being against one but for the other.

You clearly don't understand how money works.

In both cases, the plan created debt that will have to be managed and repaid in the future.  In one case they gave the money created by that debt to failing (but too big to fail) US businesses, in the other they are giving it to thriving successful businesses.  Seems very little difference to me.


I fully understand that a reduction in taxes from some assumed baseline, looks exactly like an expense/creates the same debt as an actual expense. But I have a hard time with that supposition... as you could have that assumed baseline be 100% of income... then any relief is 'creating debt that has to be managed."

There's a difference between "Here's 1trn we're printing up and handing to you"   and "We're not going to collect $1trn from you."  The failure here is that nobody is curtailing the spending side. That's where criticism is due, I believe.

Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #307 on: December 19, 2017, 09:33:13 PM »
Not that republicans are fiscally responsible, but there is a huge difference between the government using a trillion dollars worth of resources versus a government taking 1.5 Trillion dollars less out of the economy, and there's nothing logically inconsistent about being against one but for the other.

You clearly don't understand how money works.

In both cases, the plan created debt that will have to be managed and repaid in the future.  In one case they gave the money created by that debt to failing (but too big to fail) US businesses, in the other they are giving it to thriving successful businesses.  Seems very little difference to me.

What'ss funny is, I actually did have a mistake in my post, but you didn't even catch it because you dont understand enough to recognize it.  its no where near as bad and obviously wrong as your post. But still pretty obvious and one I should have caught when I typed it out.

shenlong55

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #308 on: December 20, 2017, 06:28:31 AM »


https://www.c-span.org/video/?283224-1/republican-reaction-obama-economic-speech

Facing the worst economic crisis in generations, Republican leaders scoffed at the $1 trillion price tag for relief.

They want to pass a tax cut when the economy is fine and will add $1.5 trillion to the deficit.

This puts to bed, without a shadow of a doubt, that the modern day GOP doesn't give one s*** about deficits or fiscal responsibility.

Not that republicans are fiscally responsible, but there is a huge difference between the government using a trillion dollars worth of resources versus a government taking 1.5 Trillion dollars less out of the economy, and there's nothing logically inconsistent about being against one but for the other.

Could you explain the differences to me as if it were not obvious please?

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talltexan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #309 on: December 20, 2017, 07:22:28 AM »
Does anyone else feel like this thread has drifted very far from its initial topic?

Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #310 on: December 20, 2017, 08:55:59 AM »


https://www.c-span.org/video/?283224-1/republican-reaction-obama-economic-speech

Facing the worst economic crisis in generations, Republican leaders scoffed at the $1 trillion price tag for relief.

They want to pass a tax cut when the economy is fine and will add $1.5 trillion to the deficit.

This puts to bed, without a shadow of a doubt, that the modern day GOP doesn't give one s*** about deficits or fiscal responsibility.

Not that republicans are fiscally responsible, but there is a huge difference between the government using a trillion dollars worth of resources versus a government taking 1.5 Trillion dollars less out of the economy, and there's nothing logically inconsistent about being against one but for the other.

Could you explain the differences to me as if it were not obvious please?

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

Again, my original statement was not exactly accurate, as the stimulus didn't use a trillion dollars of resources.  It did use some resources, but it mostly just redistributed a lot of money.  That can be better or worse than them actually using the resources depending on what they are used on and in the case of redistribution, what they are incentivizing. (e.g., looking at it from a societal wealth standpoint, if they just did interstate highways, that'd probably be better than redistributing it.  Alternatively, if they threw it all at the high speed rail planned for California, that'd probably be worse than simply just redistributing all of it based on political clout).

On the flipside, that $1.5 trillion dollars the government would have taken if not for the tax bill, will generally be spent on things people want, not allocated based on political calculations and power.  (A chunk of it will go to things mandated by the government or to excess rents firms get because of crony capitalism, but luckily that's no where near the majority, yet).  If you are skeptical of central planning and/or believe in public choice theory, that is a huge, huge improvement. 

 

shenlong55

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #311 on: December 20, 2017, 09:37:20 AM »


https://www.c-span.org/video/?283224-1/republican-reaction-obama-economic-speech

Facing the worst economic crisis in generations, Republican leaders scoffed at the $1 trillion price tag for relief.

They want to pass a tax cut when the economy is fine and will add $1.5 trillion to the deficit.

This puts to bed, without a shadow of a doubt, that the modern day GOP doesn't give one s*** about deficits or fiscal responsibility.

Not that republicans are fiscally responsible, but there is a huge difference between the government using a trillion dollars worth of resources versus a government taking 1.5 Trillion dollars less out of the economy, and there's nothing logically inconsistent about being against one but for the other.

Could you explain the differences to me as if it were not obvious please?

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

Again, my original statement was not exactly accurate, as the stimulus didn't use a trillion dollars of resources.  It did use some resources, but it mostly just redistributed a lot of money.  That can be better or worse than them actually using the resources depending on what they are used on and in the case of redistribution, what they are incentivizing. (e.g., looking at it from a societal wealth standpoint, if they just did interstate highways, that'd probably be better than redistributing it.  Alternatively, if they threw it all at the high speed rail planned for California, that'd probably be worse than simply just redistributing all of it based on political clout).

On the flipside, that $1.5 trillion dollars the government would have taken if not for the tax bill, will generally be spent on things people want, not allocated based on political calculations and power.  (A chunk of it will go to things mandated by the government or to excess rents firms get because of crony capitalism, but luckily that's no where near the majority, yet).  If you are skeptical of central planning and/or believe in public choice theory, that is a huge, huge improvement.

So, I get that, from a conservative perspective, allowing 'the people' to spend X amount of money is better than 'the government' spending X amount of money.  But how does that change the effect on the national debt/deficit?  It just seems to me like your essentially saying you don't mind the debt/deficit increasing, as long it's increased in service to your priorities.

I'm just finding it hard to take conservative complaints about the debt/deficit seriously when the first major legislation they attempt to pass, after eight years of loudly complaining about it, is expected to significantly increase it.

MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #312 on: December 20, 2017, 11:57:27 AM »

So, I get that, from a conservative perspective, allowing 'the people' to spend X amount of money is better than 'the government' spending X amount of money.  But how does that change the effect on the national debt/deficit?  It just seems to me like your essentially saying you don't mind the debt/deficit increasing, as long it's increased in service to your priorities.

I'm just finding it hard to take conservative complaints about the debt/deficit seriously when the first major legislation they attempt to pass, after eight years of loudly complaining about it, is expected to significantly increase it.
Either way it's still horrible for the debt/deficit.  As a conservative, I'm pretty pissed about it.  I had a debate about it at work with a Republican who was trying to convince everyone it's good for the deficit.

Theoretically, it's possible that if you reduce taxes by $1, it doesn't actually increase the debt by a whole $1, because what is saved, is then spent then taxed.  In practice it's nearly impossible to measure the difference though.  You can lower rates by not affecting the debt, if you combine it with removing tax deductions, lower spending, or something like that, but that's not what's going on here.

ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #313 on: December 20, 2017, 01:01:55 PM »

So, I get that, from a conservative perspective, allowing 'the people' to spend X amount of money is better than 'the government' spending X amount of money.  But how does that change the effect on the national debt/deficit?  It just seems to me like your essentially saying you don't mind the debt/deficit increasing, as long it's increased in service to your priorities.

I'm just finding it hard to take conservative complaints about the debt/deficit seriously when the first major legislation they attempt to pass, after eight years of loudly complaining about it, is expected to significantly increase it.
Either way it's still horrible for the debt/deficit.  As a conservative, I'm pretty pissed about it.  I had a debate about it at work with a Republican who was trying to convince everyone it's good for the deficit.

Theoretically, it's possible that if you reduce taxes by $1, it doesn't actually increase the debt by a whole $1, because what is saved, is then spent then taxed.  In practice it's nearly impossible to measure the difference though.  You can lower rates by not affecting the debt, if you combine it with removing tax deductions, lower spending, or something like that, but that's not what's going on here.

It might not be horrible for the debt/deficit either, depending how much you think the reduced taxes will stimulate economic activity, or widen the tax-base. It's not inconcievable that reducing taxes increases disposable income, which increases spending -> more demain -> employment -> more salarys to collect taxes from and less spending on entitlement programs.

 I think the cuts in the case of this tax reform are a bit too focused on higher incomes and you'd get more economic growth if the taxes were more focused on the middle class.  This tax bill should have come with a spending decrease to make it not add to the debt.

Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #314 on: December 20, 2017, 01:19:27 PM »


https://www.c-span.org/video/?283224-1/republican-reaction-obama-economic-speech

Facing the worst economic crisis in generations, Republican leaders scoffed at the $1 trillion price tag for relief.

They want to pass a tax cut when the economy is fine and will add $1.5 trillion to the deficit.

This puts to bed, without a shadow of a doubt, that the modern day GOP doesn't give one s*** about deficits or fiscal responsibility.

Not that republicans are fiscally responsible, but there is a huge difference between the government using a trillion dollars worth of resources versus a government taking 1.5 Trillion dollars less out of the economy, and there's nothing logically inconsistent about being against one but for the other.

Could you explain the differences to me as if it were not obvious please?

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

Again, my original statement was not exactly accurate, as the stimulus didn't use a trillion dollars of resources.  It did use some resources, but it mostly just redistributed a lot of money.  That can be better or worse than them actually using the resources depending on what they are used on and in the case of redistribution, what they are incentivizing. (e.g., looking at it from a societal wealth standpoint, if they just did interstate highways, that'd probably be better than redistributing it.  Alternatively, if they threw it all at the high speed rail planned for California, that'd probably be worse than simply just redistributing all of it based on political clout).

On the flipside, that $1.5 trillion dollars the government would have taken if not for the tax bill, will generally be spent on things people want, not allocated based on political calculations and power.  (A chunk of it will go to things mandated by the government or to excess rents firms get because of crony capitalism, but luckily that's no where near the majority, yet).  If you are skeptical of central planning and/or believe in public choice theory, that is a huge, huge improvement.

So, I get that, from a conservative perspective, allowing 'the people' to spend X amount of money is better than 'the government' spending X amount of money.  But how does that change the effect on the national debt/deficit?  It just seems to me like your essentially saying you don't mind the debt/deficit increasing, as long it's increased in service to your priorities.

I'm just finding it hard to take conservative complaints about the debt/deficit seriously when the first major legislation they attempt to pass, after eight years of loudly complaining about it, is expected to significantly increase it.

There are two things you are missing.  The most important is that even if you agree that not taking money from other people by definition increases the deficit, it's still two different calculations as far as cost benefits go.  Increasing the deficit for the government to spend another trillion dollars, whether it's actually spending resources or just redistributing dollars, is going to generally result in well less than a trillion dollars of benefit, at least measured by what people would pay for it voluntarily (and talking about any developed country, where the government revenue is way, way past what is necessary to provide public goods). 

On the flip side, if you let people spend 1.5 trillion dollars, they are generally going to end up being somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.5 trillion dollars richer (or really probably much more when you account for the gains from trade and investment).   

So even buying the argument that not taking somebody's money "cost money", it's perfectly logical to think a deficit for not taking money is acceptable and a deficit from spending (or redistributing) more money is not. 


shenlong55

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #315 on: December 20, 2017, 01:42:13 PM »
So, I get that, from a conservative perspective, allowing 'the people' to spend X amount of money is better than 'the government' spending X amount of money.  But how does that change the effect on the national debt/deficit?  It just seems to me like your essentially saying you don't mind the debt/deficit increasing, as long it's increased in service to your priorities.

I'm just finding it hard to take conservative complaints about the debt/deficit seriously when the first major legislation they attempt to pass, after eight years of loudly complaining about it, is expected to significantly increase it.

There are two things you are missing.  The most important is that even if you agree that not taking money from other people by definition increases the deficit, it's still two different calculations as far as cost benefits go.  Increasing the deficit for the government to spend another trillion dollars, whether it's actually spending resources or just redistributing dollars, is going to generally result in well less than a trillion dollars of benefit, at least measured by what people would pay for it voluntarily (and talking about any developed country, where the government revenue is way, way past what is necessary to provide public goods). 

On the flip side, if you let people spend 1.5 trillion dollars, they are generally going to end up being somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.5 trillion dollars richer (or really probably much more when you account for the gains from trade and investment).   

So even buying the argument that not taking somebody's money "cost money", it's perfectly logical to think a deficit for not taking money is acceptable and a deficit from spending (or redistributing) more money is not.

Sure.  But it's also perfectly logical to think that a deficit for stimulating the economy is acceptable and a deficit for lower tax rates during good times is not acceptable.  So why should I buy your argument and not the other?

Honestly, I don't think the deficit is an issue currently so it's not something that I'm personally holding against this bill.  It's just that I'm less likely now to believe conservatives in the future when they say that the reason liberals shouldn't be allowed to pass their proposed legislation is because it increases the deficit, since what they seem to mean is more like 'it increase the deficit for something that I don't agree with.'  Which really boils down to 'I don't agree with this' rather than any actual concern about the deficit.

MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #316 on: December 20, 2017, 01:53:00 PM »

So, I get that, from a conservative perspective, allowing 'the people' to spend X amount of money is better than 'the government' spending X amount of money.  But how does that change the effect on the national debt/deficit?  It just seems to me like your essentially saying you don't mind the debt/deficit increasing, as long it's increased in service to your priorities.

I'm just finding it hard to take conservative complaints about the debt/deficit seriously when the first major legislation they attempt to pass, after eight years of loudly complaining about it, is expected to significantly increase it.
Either way it's still horrible for the debt/deficit.  As a conservative, I'm pretty pissed about it.  I had a debate about it at work with a Republican who was trying to convince everyone it's good for the deficit.

Theoretically, it's possible that if you reduce taxes by $1, it doesn't actually increase the debt by a whole $1, because what is saved, is then spent then taxed.  In practice it's nearly impossible to measure the difference though.  You can lower rates by not affecting the debt, if you combine it with removing tax deductions, lower spending, or something like that, but that's not what's going on here.

It might not be horrible for the debt/deficit either, depending how much you think the reduced taxes will stimulate economic activity, or widen the tax-base. It's not inconcievable that reducing taxes increases disposable income, which increases spending -> more demain -> employment -> more salarys to collect taxes from and less spending on entitlement programs.

 I think the cuts in the case of this tax reform are a bit too focused on higher incomes and you'd get more economic growth if the taxes were more focused on the middle class.  This tax bill should have come with a spending decrease to make it not add to the debt.
Do you have a real life example of where this has happened in the US?  Where say, removing $1 in taxes only dropped the deficit by $0.75?  I remember looking years ago, and what I found was like $1 less in taxes dropped the deficit by $0.98, with $0.02 uncertainty (not the actual numbers, but something similar to this). 

MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #317 on: December 20, 2017, 02:05:46 PM »
Sure.  But it's also perfectly logical to think that a deficit for stimulating the economy is acceptable and a deficit for lower tax rates during good times is not acceptable.  So why should I buy your argument and not the other?

Honestly, I don't think the deficit is an issue currently so it's not something that I'm personally holding against this bill.  It's just that I'm less likely now to believe conservatives in the future when they say that the reason liberals shouldn't be allowed to pass their proposed legislation is because it increases the deficit, since what they seem to mean is more like 'it increase the deficit for something that I don't agree with.'  Which really boils down to 'I don't agree with this' rather than any actual concern about the deficit.
I'm sure some said that, "This bill is not worth the increase in deficit," which translates to your, "I don't agree with this."  That message could easily get truncated to, "Don't do it because it increases the deficit" by the media.  I don't really know.  I do know some news stations at the time were whining that the debt (depending on how it's measured) was > 100% of GDP, which would indicate it is mostly a deficit/debt problem.

I personally think the debt is too high.  A government having high debt is great, until some disaster, whether it's natural or a war, drops the GDP and makes the debt run out of control.  After 2008/09 banks were required to do stress testing, so one bank crashing wouldn't crash the whole sector.  I wish the government was required to do something similar.  Granted something would have to be fairly major to break the US.

crazyworld

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #318 on: December 20, 2017, 02:16:54 PM »
Yup, when democrats want to increase the deficit for infrastructure spending (which would create local US jobs), Republicans are all boo-hiss, not on my watch, clutching their pearls.

When they want to give their wealthy donors giant tax cuts, oh yeah, trickle down economics, yessir.

Please don;t try to explain to me this whole tax bill was for the greater good. It was most certainly not.  I moved here from a third world country.  Whats going on in the US right now, is the same script I grew up seeing (and still see when I travel back).  What amazes me is how quickly the entire institutional framework crumbled.  Maybe its a natural effect of any nation growing rich & powerful, nowhere to go but down. 

ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #319 on: December 20, 2017, 04:51:32 PM »
Yup, when democrats want to increase the deficit for infrastructure spending (which would create local US jobs), Republicans are all boo-hiss, not on my watch, clutching their pearls.

When they want to give their wealthy donors giant tax cuts, oh yeah, trickle down economics, yessir.

Please don;t try to explain to me this whole tax bill was for the greater good. It was most certainly not.  I moved here from a third world country.  Whats going on in the US right now, is the same script I grew up seeing (and still see when I travel back).  What amazes me is how quickly the entire institutional framework crumbled.  Maybe its a natural effect of any nation growing rich & powerful, nowhere to go but down.

In my experience, democrats do not spend on infastructure.... they spend on things that benefit thier wealthy union donors while doing little to generate any additional utility for those dollars.

crazyworld

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #320 on: December 20, 2017, 07:25:55 PM »
Yup, when democrats want to increase the deficit for infrastructure spending (which would create local US jobs), Republicans are all boo-hiss, not on my watch, clutching their pearls.

When they want to give their wealthy donors giant tax cuts, oh yeah, trickle down economics, yessir.

Please don;t try to explain to me this whole tax bill was for the greater good. It was most certainly not.  I moved here from a third world country.  Whats going on in the US right now, is the same script I grew up seeing (and still see when I travel back).  What amazes me is how quickly the entire institutional framework crumbled.  Maybe its a natural effect of any nation growing rich & powerful, nowhere to go but down.

In my experience, democrats do not spend on infastructure.... they spend on things that benefit thier wealthy union donors while doing little to generate any additional utility for those dollars.

Wasn't that what the Republicans fought tooth & nail Obama over ? (amongst many other things)
Oh, and for good measure, they are taking out the healthcare mandate, ie, ACA in jeopardy, as well as the CHIP program is unfunded.  The richest country in the world, ladies & gentlemen...
And do I hear calls from Fox news about FBI/Robert Mueller being "corrupt", so they can take the heat off their corrupt & depraved leader?  In a proud country, with the best democratic ideals, that the rest of the world should emulate...

Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #321 on: December 21, 2017, 08:01:34 AM »
So, I get that, from a conservative perspective, allowing 'the people' to spend X amount of money is better than 'the government' spending X amount of money.  But how does that change the effect on the national debt/deficit?  It just seems to me like your essentially saying you don't mind the debt/deficit increasing, as long it's increased in service to your priorities.

I'm just finding it hard to take conservative complaints about the debt/deficit seriously when the first major legislation they attempt to pass, after eight years of loudly complaining about it, is expected to significantly increase it.

There are two things you are missing.  The most important is that even if you agree that not taking money from other people by definition increases the deficit, it's still two different calculations as far as cost benefits go.  Increasing the deficit for the government to spend another trillion dollars, whether it's actually spending resources or just redistributing dollars, is going to generally result in well less than a trillion dollars of benefit, at least measured by what people would pay for it voluntarily (and talking about any developed country, where the government revenue is way, way past what is necessary to provide public goods). 

On the flip side, if you let people spend 1.5 trillion dollars, they are generally going to end up being somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.5 trillion dollars richer (or really probably much more when you account for the gains from trade and investment).   

So even buying the argument that not taking somebody's money "cost money", it's perfectly logical to think a deficit for not taking money is acceptable and a deficit from spending (or redistributing) more money is not.

Sure.  But it's also perfectly logical to think that a deficit for stimulating the economy is acceptable and a deficit for lower tax rates during good times is not acceptable.  So why should I buy your argument and not the other?
  You can buy either argument you want.  I was just pointing out that the posters clutching their pearls and claiming hypocrisy were either being dense or deliberately dishonest. 


Honestly, I don't think the deficit is an issue currently so it's not something that I'm personally holding against this bill.  It's just that I'm less likely now to believe conservatives in the future when they say that the reason liberals shouldn't be allowed to pass their proposed legislation is because it increases the deficit, since what they seem to mean is more like 'it increase the deficit for something that I don't agree with.'  Which really boils down to 'I don't agree with this' rather than any actual concern about the deficit.
  I think it's more "i'm against it because it increases deficit for something that's not worth increasing the deficit."  Or alternatively, we already have a huge spending problem and are not going to meet our "promises" with respect to future entitlements.  We don't need to add to our spending problem.   

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #322 on: December 21, 2017, 08:10:06 AM »
9 million kids without healthcare - CHIP costs $14 billion to fund.  Orrin Hatch says, "We don't have the money."

800,000 American DREAMers legal status up in the air as Congress sits on DACA.

Republicans:
"Hey, let's celebrate this $1 trillion tax cut, nearly all of which benefits the top 1%."

Idiots.

shenlong55

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #323 on: December 21, 2017, 08:27:12 AM »
So, I get that, from a conservative perspective, allowing 'the people' to spend X amount of money is better than 'the government' spending X amount of money.  But how does that change the effect on the national debt/deficit?  It just seems to me like your essentially saying you don't mind the debt/deficit increasing, as long it's increased in service to your priorities.

I'm just finding it hard to take conservative complaints about the debt/deficit seriously when the first major legislation they attempt to pass, after eight years of loudly complaining about it, is expected to significantly increase it.

There are two things you are missing.  The most important is that even if you agree that not taking money from other people by definition increases the deficit, it's still two different calculations as far as cost benefits go.  Increasing the deficit for the government to spend another trillion dollars, whether it's actually spending resources or just redistributing dollars, is going to generally result in well less than a trillion dollars of benefit, at least measured by what people would pay for it voluntarily (and talking about any developed country, where the government revenue is way, way past what is necessary to provide public goods). 

On the flip side, if you let people spend 1.5 trillion dollars, they are generally going to end up being somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.5 trillion dollars richer (or really probably much more when you account for the gains from trade and investment).   

So even buying the argument that not taking somebody's money "cost money", it's perfectly logical to think a deficit for not taking money is acceptable and a deficit from spending (or redistributing) more money is not.

Sure.  But it's also perfectly logical to think that a deficit for stimulating the economy is acceptable and a deficit for lower tax rates during good times is not acceptable.  So why should I buy your argument and not the other?
  You can buy either argument you want.  I was just pointing out that the posters clutching their pearls and claiming hypocrisy were either being dense or deliberately dishonest. 


Honestly, I don't think the deficit is an issue currently so it's not something that I'm personally holding against this bill.  It's just that I'm less likely now to believe conservatives in the future when they say that the reason liberals shouldn't be allowed to pass their proposed legislation is because it increases the deficit, since what they seem to mean is more like 'it increase the deficit for something that I don't agree with.'  Which really boils down to 'I don't agree with this' rather than any actual concern about the deficit.
  I think it's more "i'm against it because it increases deficit for something that's not worth increasing the deficit."  Or alternatively, we already have a huge spending problem and are not going to meet our "promises" with respect to future entitlements.  We don't need to add to our spending problem.

Yeah, the problem is that I can make the same argument against this bill.  I don't think giving rich people and corporations tax breaks during a time when the nation is doing well economically is worth increasing the deficit.  I'm against it because it increases the deficit for something that's not worth increasing the deficit for.  Or alternatively, we already have a huge funding problem and are not going to meet our "promises" with respect to future entitlements.  We don't need to add to our funding problem.

I mean, please correct me if I'm wrong, but it still just seems to me like your okay with increasing the deficit for the things that you think are important but not for what others may consider important.

Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #324 on: December 21, 2017, 09:29:21 AM »
So, I get that, from a conservative perspective, allowing 'the people' to spend X amount of money is better than 'the government' spending X amount of money.  But how does that change the effect on the national debt/deficit?  It just seems to me like your essentially saying you don't mind the debt/deficit increasing, as long it's increased in service to your priorities.

I'm just finding it hard to take conservative complaints about the debt/deficit seriously when the first major legislation they attempt to pass, after eight years of loudly complaining about it, is expected to significantly increase it.

There are two things you are missing.  The most important is that even if you agree that not taking money from other people by definition increases the deficit, it's still two different calculations as far as cost benefits go.  Increasing the deficit for the government to spend another trillion dollars, whether it's actually spending resources or just redistributing dollars, is going to generally result in well less than a trillion dollars of benefit, at least measured by what people would pay for it voluntarily (and talking about any developed country, where the government revenue is way, way past what is necessary to provide public goods). 

On the flip side, if you let people spend 1.5 trillion dollars, they are generally going to end up being somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.5 trillion dollars richer (or really probably much more when you account for the gains from trade and investment).   

So even buying the argument that not taking somebody's money "cost money", it's perfectly logical to think a deficit for not taking money is acceptable and a deficit from spending (or redistributing) more money is not.

Sure.  But it's also perfectly logical to think that a deficit for stimulating the economy is acceptable and a deficit for lower tax rates during good times is not acceptable.  So why should I buy your argument and not the other?
  You can buy either argument you want.  I was just pointing out that the posters clutching their pearls and claiming hypocrisy were either being dense or deliberately dishonest. 


Honestly, I don't think the deficit is an issue currently so it's not something that I'm personally holding against this bill.  It's just that I'm less likely now to believe conservatives in the future when they say that the reason liberals shouldn't be allowed to pass their proposed legislation is because it increases the deficit, since what they seem to mean is more like 'it increase the deficit for something that I don't agree with.'  Which really boils down to 'I don't agree with this' rather than any actual concern about the deficit.
  I think it's more "i'm against it because it increases deficit for something that's not worth increasing the deficit."  Or alternatively, we already have a huge spending problem and are not going to meet our "promises" with respect to future entitlements.  We don't need to add to our spending problem.

Yeah, the problem is that I can make the same argument against this bill.  I don't think giving rich people and corporations tax breaks during a time when the nation is doing well economically is worth increasing the deficit.  I'm against it because it increases the deficit for something that's not worth increasing the deficit for.  Or alternatively, we already have a huge funding problem and are not going to meet our "promises" with respect to future entitlements.  We don't need to add to our funding problem.

I mean, please correct me if I'm wrong, but it still just seems to me like your okay with increasing the deficit for the things that you think are important but not for what others may consider important.

I think that statement would more or less true for everybody that thinks the deficit is meaningful?  Or at least if you add "that are not things I think are important" to the end? 





 


shenlong55

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #325 on: December 21, 2017, 12:03:52 PM »
I mean, please correct me if I'm wrong, but it still just seems to me like your okay with increasing the deficit for the things that you think are important but not for what others may consider important.

I think that statement would more or less true for everybody that thinks the deficit is meaningful?  Or at least if you add "that are not things I think are important" to the end?

That may very well be true.  But everybody thinking that way does not make it right, nor does it make it non-hypocritical.  It also may be why our debt continues to increase regardless of the party in power.  I mean, why worry about the deficit when the legislation I'm working on is super important and will make America great again/bring about change we can believe in, right?

startbyservingothers

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #326 on: December 21, 2017, 01:30:14 PM »
I read a couple pages of the thread, but not the entire thing.  As usual I'm impressed by the ability of people here to have an intellectual conversation about something this controversial without devolving into name-calling, etc.

I have more leanings toward 3rd / 4th party so I wasn't the target of this thread, but I'll throw my thought process in anyways.
..
Note the numbers below organize my thoughts.  They do not correspond to the numbers in the Op thread:


1.  I'm in a strong republican state.  Essentially there is a near zero likelihood that my vote will have any effect on my state's vote, much less the overall election outcome.

2.  I don't like the current 2 party system.  The lousy choice of candidates in this last election shows just how bad the problem has gotten.

3.  Therefore I feel the best use of my vote is to vote for a 3rd party candidate.  The more people that vote 3rd party the more viable the option actually comes.

4.  I voted for Jill Stein since Green Party aligns most with my values.  (Despite disagreeing that we should just wipe out student loan debt and make college free.  -  I would love these ideas were I younger and could benefit from them.)

5.  I also really like Gary Johnson.  I felt he was the best overall candidate even though I disagreed with the Environmental side of his platform.   I would have voted for Gary Johnson had I felt there was any chance of him gaining a significant portion of the poplar vote.  (3 above explains my reasoning.)


Edit to add:  Just noticed shenlong55 is also in Kentucky.  Awesome.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 02:21:02 PM by startbyservingothers »

Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #327 on: December 21, 2017, 02:06:00 PM »
I mean, please correct me if I'm wrong, but it still just seems to me like your okay with increasing the deficit for the things that you think are important but not for what others may consider important.

I think that statement would more or less true for everybody that thinks the deficit is meaningful?  Or at least if you add "that are not things I think are important" to the end?

That may very well be true.  But everybody thinking that way does not make it right, nor does it make it non-hypocritical.  It also may be why our debt continues to increase regardless of the party in power.  I mean, why worry about the deficit when the legislation I'm working on is super important and will make America great again/bring about change we can believe in, right?

Well, the alternative is to think the deficit is the only thing that matters.  That would probably be an improvement if our politicians acted like that now, but probably not during WWII, WWI, Civil War, and probably some others?

shenlong55

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #328 on: December 22, 2017, 10:13:55 AM »
I mean, please correct me if I'm wrong, but it still just seems to me like your okay with increasing the deficit for the things that you think are important but not for what others may consider important.

I think that statement would more or less true for everybody that thinks the deficit is meaningful?  Or at least if you add "that are not things I think are important" to the end?

That may very well be true.  But everybody thinking that way does not make it right, nor does it make it non-hypocritical.  It also may be why our debt continues to increase regardless of the party in power.  I mean, why worry about the deficit when the legislation I'm working on is super important and will make America great again/bring about change we can believe in, right?

Well, the alternative is to think the deficit is the only thing that matters.  That would probably be an improvement if our politicians acted like that now, but probably not during WWII, WWI, Civil War, and probably some others?

I get what your saying but here's the thing...

Conservatives believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.
Liberals believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.

Do you get how this can look hypocritical to those without the exact same views as yours?  The only difference I see is that conservatives have been whining about liberal policies increasing the deficit for the past eight years.  Based on that rhetoric I would expect them to place a higher priority on it once they gain power.  They haven't though, so it gives the appearance that they only care about the deficit when it comes to liberal policies.  Maybe instead of worrying about the deficit only when it's the opposition in power we should focus on decreasing the impact on the deficit when our own party is in power and just debate the actual policy when the opposition is in power.

bacchi

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #329 on: December 22, 2017, 10:46:56 AM »
Conservatives believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.
Liberals believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.

Most of the liberals I know would love to decrease the deficit (in boom times). A lot of the spending decrease just has to come from one of the elephants in the room, which is taboo to most Republicans.

wenchsenior

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #330 on: December 22, 2017, 10:59:15 AM »
Conservatives believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.
Liberals believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.

Most of the liberals I know would love to decrease the deficit (in boom times). A lot of the spending decrease just has to come from one of the elephants in the room, which is taboo to most Republicans.

Exactly. 

ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #331 on: December 22, 2017, 12:36:27 PM »
Conservatives believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.
Liberals believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.

Most of the liberals I know would love to decrease the deficit (in boom times). A lot of the spending decrease just has to come from one of the elephants in the room, which is taboo to most Republicans.

Exactly.

You can change the name of the parties around and have it be just as accurate.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #332 on: December 22, 2017, 12:47:02 PM »
Conservatives believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.
Liberals believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.

Most of the liberals I know would love to decrease the deficit (in boom times). A lot of the spending decrease just has to come from one of the elephants in the room, which is taboo to most Republicans.

Exactly.

You can change the name of the parties around and have it be just as accurate.

We are in an expanding economy and Republicans, and only Republicans, just passed a tax cut that will add $1.5 trillion to the deficit.

So, no you can't.

ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #333 on: December 22, 2017, 01:51:43 PM »
Conservatives believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.
Liberals believe that their policies are different/better and therefore worth increasing the deficit.

Most of the liberals I know would love to decrease the deficit (in boom times). A lot of the spending decrease just has to come from one of the elephants in the room, which is taboo to most Republicans.

Exactly.

You can change the name of the parties around and have it be just as accurate.

We are in an expanding economy and Republicans, and only Republicans, just passed a tax cut that will add $1.5 trillion to the deficit.

So, no you can't.
Minor point: that's 1.5 trillion over ten years. $150bn was added to the yearly deficit.

I thought we were talking about your average, day to day liberal/republican?
Either way, Obama ran very similar deficits to Bush when you ignore the TARP/financial crisis stuff, and didn't do anything to reduce the deficits. Democrats didn't pass any spending cuts.

Republicans increase the deficit by taking less from the people.
Democrats increase the deficit by taking more from the people, and SPENDING even more yet.



bacchi

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #334 on: December 22, 2017, 02:28:18 PM »
Republicans increase the deficit by taking less from the people.
Democrats increase the deficit by taking more from the people, and SPENDING even more yet.

Hahahahaha. Good one. *wipes tears* If you think Republicans don't spend like drunken sailors given the chance, ask John McCain.

http://archive.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/12/01/mccain_says_congress_spends_like_drunken_sailor/

So your comment is more accurate as,

"Republicans increase the deficit by taking less from the people, and SPENDING even more yet."

But, yes, each party has their taboo elephants.

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #335 on: December 22, 2017, 02:37:44 PM »
Republicans increase the deficit by taking less from the people.
Democrats increase the deficit by taking more from the people, and SPENDING even more yet.

Hahahahaha. Good one. *wipes tears* If you think Republicans don't spend like drunken sailors given the chance, ask John McCain.

http://archive.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/12/01/mccain_says_congress_spends_like_drunken_sailor/

So your comment is more accurate as,

"Republicans increase the deficit by taking less from the people, and SPENDING even more yet."

But, yes, each party has their taboo elephants.

The poors aren't people though, only the rich are.  If you read the response with that fact in mind, it actually makes a lot of sense.

libertarian4321

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #336 on: December 22, 2017, 04:56:00 PM »
Republicans increase the deficit by taking less from the people.
Democrats increase the deficit by taking more from the people, and SPENDING even more yet.

Hahahahaha. Good one. *wipes tears* If you think Republicans don't spend like drunken sailors given the chance, ask John McCain.

http://archive.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/12/01/mccain_says_congress_spends_like_drunken_sailor/

So your comment is more accurate as,

"Republicans increase the deficit by taking less from the people, and SPENDING even more yet."

But, yes, each party has their taboo elephants.

Yup, both major parties routinely waste our tax dollars- they just waste them differently.

That's one of the reasons I don't support either of the big government major parties.

Dabnasty

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #337 on: December 22, 2017, 08:45:05 PM »
Republicans increase the deficit by taking less from the people.
Democrats increase the deficit by taking more from the people, and SPENDING even more yet.

Hahahahaha. Good one. *wipes tears* If you think Republicans don't spend like drunken sailors given the chance, ask John McCain.

http://archive.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/12/01/mccain_says_congress_spends_like_drunken_sailor/

So your comment is more accurate as,

"Republicans increase the deficit by taking less from the people, and SPENDING even more yet."

But, yes, each party has their taboo elephants.

Yup, both major parties routinely waste our tax dollars- they just waste them differently.

That's one of the reasons I don't support either of the big government major parties.

So which party do you support?

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #338 on: December 22, 2017, 09:26:30 PM »
So which party do you support?

Maybe he supports candidates for office, instead of parties?

That's been the easy out for me.  I definitely disagree with some of the party positions, but those positions are not shared by every candidate.  It's not uncommon to find a candidate you can support, even if they belong to a party you're not very happy with.

t185

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #339 on: December 23, 2017, 04:52:21 AM »
To the OP's original question.
No.
God help us if Hillary would or won

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #340 on: December 23, 2017, 05:39:19 AM »
God help us if Hillary would or won

Because she would've been a moderately competent, unpopular technocrat who got nothing done? *clutches pearls*

Kris

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #341 on: December 23, 2017, 07:25:46 AM »
God help us if Hillary would or won

Because she would've been a moderately competent, unpopular technocrat who got nothing done? *clutches pearls*

I think he’s talking about the child porn pizza ring she would have installed in the White House.

Gin1984

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #342 on: December 23, 2017, 06:41:29 PM »
So which party do you support?

Maybe he supports candidates for office, instead of parties?

That's been the easy out for me.  I definitely disagree with some of the party positions, but those positions are not shared by every candidate.  It's not uncommon to find a candidate you can support, even if they belong to a party you're not very happy with.
Except the last tax bill was voted completely on party lines, and for the last decade the GOP has evolved to expect that from their elected officials.

Dabnasty

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #343 on: December 23, 2017, 06:46:51 PM »
So which party do you support?

Maybe he supports candidates for office, instead of parties?

That's been the easy out for me.  I definitely disagree with some of the party positions, but those positions are not shared by every candidate.  It's not uncommon to find a candidate you can support, even if they belong to a party you're not very happy with.

Sorry, forgot the /s (see poster's name). /s

I absolutely agree with the rational that you should vote for a candidate and not a party. I've argued that point to many a person who tells me that voting third party is a waste. My opinion is that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that's given us the two party system.

ETA: Oh, and Kris's signature
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 06:49:50 PM by Dabnasty »

Kris

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #344 on: December 23, 2017, 07:26:09 PM »
So which party do you support?

Maybe he supports candidates for office, instead of parties?

That's been the easy out for me.  I definitely disagree with some of the party positions, but those positions are not shared by every candidate.  It's not uncommon to find a candidate you can support, even if they belong to a party you're not very happy with.

Sorry, forgot the /s (see poster's name). /s

I absolutely agree with the rational that you should vote for a candidate and not a party. I've argued that point to many a person who tells me that voting third party is a waste. My opinion is that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that's given us the two party system.

ETA: Oh, and Kris's signature
Not to derail, but the Libertarian party (or any third party) doesn’t have a chance until they build an actual party, not just run a ramshackle presidential campaign once in awhile.

They need people running for every office, city, state, and national. If every one of them ran for an office, they might have just about enough to have a presence in those elections. At that point, maybe people would start noticing them and listening to what they had to say.

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #345 on: December 23, 2017, 07:28:54 PM »
Sorry, forgot the /s (see poster's name). /s

Well then nevermind.  He clearly voted for a party.

Dabnasty

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #346 on: December 23, 2017, 08:00:18 PM »
So which party do you support?

Maybe he supports candidates for office, instead of parties?

That's been the easy out for me.  I definitely disagree with some of the party positions, but those positions are not shared by every candidate.  It's not uncommon to find a candidate you can support, even if they belong to a party you're not very happy with.

Sorry, forgot the /s (see poster's name). /s

I absolutely agree with the rational that you should vote for a candidate and not a party. I've argued that point to many a person who tells me that voting third party is a waste. My opinion is that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that's given us the two party system.

ETA: Oh, and Kris's signature
Not to derail, but the Libertarian party (or any third party) doesn’t have a chance until they build an actual party, not just run a ramshackle presidential campaign once in awhile.

They need people running for every office, city, state, and national. If every one of them ran for an office, they might have just about enough to have a presence in those elections. At that point, maybe people would start noticing them and listening to what they had to say.
That's a fair point. I would also say that the wasted vote mentality extends to those who want to be involved in politics. You can make your path to success a whole lot easier if you attach yourself to a mainstream party so that's inevitably where most of the talent goes. So maybe you're right, they need to start small and be patient.

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #347 on: December 24, 2017, 07:24:39 AM »
So which party do you support?

Maybe he supports candidates for office, instead of parties?

That's been the easy out for me.  I definitely disagree with some of the party positions, but those positions are not shared by every candidate.  It's not uncommon to find a candidate you can support, even if they belong to a party you're not very happy with.

Sorry, forgot the /s (see poster's name). /s

I absolutely agree with the rational that you should vote for a candidate and not a party. I've argued that point to many a person who tells me that voting third party is a waste. My opinion is that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that's given us the two party system.

ETA: Oh, and Kris's signature
Not to derail, but the Libertarian party (or any third party) doesn’t have a chance until they build an actual party, not just run a ramshackle presidential campaign once in awhile.

They need people running for every office, city, state, and national. If every one of them ran for an office, they might have just about enough to have a presence in those elections. At that point, maybe people would start noticing them and listening to what they had to say.

That's not really a fair criticism.

Building an actual party is antithetical to the core Libertarian philosophy of anarchism.  How can you claim to be the small government at all costs party while keeping a large organization together?  That's why supporting the part is brilliant if you're a fan of simply opting out of politics beyond making snide remarks . . . they'll never be in a position of power, so your choice will never really come under fire for actions taken.

Kris

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #348 on: December 24, 2017, 09:30:40 AM »
So which party do you support?

Maybe he supports candidates for office, instead of parties?

That's been the easy out for me.  I definitely disagree with some of the party positions, but those positions are not shared by every candidate.  It's not uncommon to find a candidate you can support, even if they belong to a party you're not very happy with.

Sorry, forgot the /s (see poster's name). /s

I absolutely agree with the rational that you should vote for a candidate and not a party. I've argued that point to many a person who tells me that voting third party is a waste. My opinion is that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that's given us the two party system.

ETA: Oh, and Kris's signature
Not to derail, but the Libertarian party (or any third party) doesn’t have a chance until they build an actual party, not just run a ramshackle presidential campaign once in awhile.

They need people running for every office, city, state, and national. If every one of them ran for an office, they might have just about enough to have a presence in those elections. At that point, maybe people would start noticing them and listening to what they had to say.

That's not really a fair criticism.

Building an actual party is antithetical to the core Libertarian philosophy of anarchism.  How can you claim to be the small government at all costs party while keeping a large organization together?  That's why supporting the part is brilliant if you're a fan of simply opting out of politics beyond making snide remarks . . . they'll never be in a position of power, so your choice will never really come under fire for actions taken.

It is a fair criticism.

Libertarians, I suspect, are far too enamored of being able to stand back and critique, safe in the belief that their apart-ness absolves them of responsibility, to actually mount any serious coherent strategy for creating a viable third party option. Which makes them largely ridiculous in my eyes. But not all third-party advocates are libertarians. And my remarks stand for any and all of them.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2017, 09:32:11 AM by Kris »

CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #349 on: December 24, 2017, 10:03:09 AM »
Merry Christmas to all the other Trumpkins on this forum.  Yes, we seem to be a slim minority but we know that our President will put America First.  He, and we, will never apologize for that.  God Bless our President and here's to another great year for our economy!  MAGA!