Author Topic: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?  (Read 88277 times)

PKFFW

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #250 on: December 11, 2017, 04:03:11 PM »
I cannot stress enough, you do not know what you are talking about.

Claim the first:  the conflict between those people calling themselves Palestinians and those calling themselves Israelis started after the Holocaust, is somehow the result of nationbuilding in the post-ww2 era.

Why this is false:  The best direct path to trace the violence has it starting due to resentment of the seeming betrayal of the arabs by the British, who instead of recognizing arab independence in the reason in return for them helping to defeat the Ottoman Empire in WW1, created Mandatory Palestine and had notions of creating a jewish homeland in the region.
Your opinion, much disputed.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
Claim the second:  the two state solution was proposed after the creation of modern Israel.

Why this is false:  With some slight variation, the two state solution was the idea put forward as a compromise between the two nationalistic movements within Mandatory Palestine after the founding of the United Nations.  Given that the U.N. charter insists on the rights of people to self-determination, it doesn't really make sense to have a one state solution, was the thinking.  So a compromise was developed, where certain parts of the country would be Israel and others Palestine, and still others were to be Syria.  I think.  It was only after this proposal was presented to the U.N. and agreed to that open conflict started.  The Palestinians and their Arab allies believed they could force a better deal, that the Jews were weak and could be removed from the area through force.  They were wrong, they lost the war, the Jews soundly defeated them, and many Arabs fled.  Israel was born, after the rejection of the two-state solution.

It is important to note, that at the negotiating table after the war, the Jews were still willing to accept a two-state solution, and ceded territories outside the proposed borders of the two-state solution to Palestinian/Syrian/Arab control. Because they are reasonable people and understand that a two-state solution could work, and likely nothing else would.
Ok, you got me there.  There two state solution was proposed before the actual creation of the modern state of Israel but after the intention to create it was clear and the process had already begun.  A technical difference but you are correct.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
Claim the third:  It is comforting to lay the blame at the feet of the Arabs, but that is too simplistic a view.

Why this is false:  The Israelis have never left the negotiating table.  It wasn't their idea to make a deal with the British in WW1.  They never asked for special consideration prior to WW1 or tried to re-create a homeland in the area.  After 1920, arabs in the area in response to British rule began harassing and oppressing jews in the area, because that's how their religion works.  Jews responded not with violence, but by seeking the right of self-determination, as is reasonable of all thinking beings.  It is only after 1936, when Arabs began violently attacking Jews, that the Jews began militarizing, for the first time, as far as I know, since antiquity.
Well this all depends on when you want to claim hostilities began.

I made the claim they began after the creation of the modern state of Israel and you deny that because there have been hostilities prior to that.  How far back do you want to go?  There's a whole book of stories about Jewish people killing every man, woman and child of their enemies at the behest of the God because "that's how their religion works".
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
Every solution that does not involve the Jews giving up their hard-won power, and stepping aside to turn complete control and autonomy of the entire region over to Palestinians, is met with the Palestinians leaving the table and initiating open, armed conflict.  And they don't form a military and attack the Israeli government, they just start wholesale slaughtering anyone they can get their hands on, bombing restaurants and sending mortars into residential neighborhoods.
Funny how a people who have occupied a region for centuries want it back isn't it.  Sure in a perfect world the conquered would simply slink away and leave the conquerors in peace to enjoy the spoils but it doesn't usually work that way.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
The Palestinians started a civil war, which they then lost, and that is the history of Modern Israel.  The conflict is ongoing because the Jews will not eliminate the Palestinians.  There are only two likely resolutions to the conflict:  The Palestinians eventually overcome the IDF and kill every Jew in Israel, or the end of time arrives and we all go out with a tiny little whimper.  The last Palestinians who actually lived in the areas they were displaced from during the civil war are dying of old age, but the conflict still has no end in sight.  There will literally be generations of Arabs who think of themselves as living in exile because their supposed allies will not do the job of a friend, and tell them they've lost.  They're the guy chasing the girl who got married to someone else fifty years ago.  It stopped being healthy awhile ago, and it was never understandable.
You can only have a civil war between members of the same nation state.  The Israeli Palestinian conflict is not a civil war.

The Israelis had not occupied any part of Palestine as a nation state for centuries.  They grabbed some land and decided it was theirs and have held on to it ever since.  The Palestinians have been fighting to get rid of them ever since.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
Claim the fourth: Arabs and Jews have been at each others throats for centuries.

Why this is false:  Arabs attack Jews, and sometimes, not always but sometimes, Jews defend themselves.  It's a subtle but significant difference.  I get the sentiment behind "I wish they would just get along" but it belies a consistent failure to pay attention.  Sometimes when the kids fight its both of their fault.  This isn't one of those times.  It hasn't been for awhile.
Remember that book I mentioned up above?

You seem desperate to believe the Jewish people have never raised a finger in anger or hate or oppression.  It just aint so mate.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
I'm curious, do you recognize the Confederate States of America?  They fought a civil war and lost, so no.
Now that's a civil war and illustrates the point exactly.  Just because you own land in a nation state doesn't mean you get to start your own little country there.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
What about Scotland?  An independent Scotland?  Sure, if they vote and that's what they want.

Now what if the vote is close, and about 45% of the people want to stay, lets call them Brits.  The vote happens, the Scots win, and the Brits go out that night and start murdering Scots.  The Scots manage to fight them off, and push them out of town, and eventually the Brits give up after years of fighting.

Are you really saying the Brits in that situation deserve anything?  And then the Scots go ahead and offer them half the country to live in, and they say no, fuck you, and start murdering scots again?
If Scotland votes to leave the UK then they should be allowed to leave.  If a bunch of Brits don't want to they have the choice of moving to England.  Again, that's a perfect illustration of what could possibly leave to a civil war.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
That's what this is.  It was messy, sure, it would be wouldn't it?  But when the dust clears the victim isn't necessarily the one in the dirt.
No that isn't what this is.  A better example is the British arriving in the Americas and telling the inhabitants there it is no longer their country.

You obviously believe might makes right.  The Israelis decided to make their own country in Palestine.  With the backing of the west they were able to do so and have been able to hold onto it ever since.  it is not a civil war though.  It is a war of conquest.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #251 on: December 12, 2017, 09:32:50 AM »
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
I'm curious, do you recognize the Confederate States of America?  They fought a civil war and lost, so no.
Now that's a civil war and illustrates the point exactly.  Just because you own land in a nation state doesn't mean you get to start your own little country there.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
What about Scotland?  An independent Scotland?  Sure, if they vote and that's what they want.

Now what if the vote is close, and about 45% of the people want to stay, lets call them Brits.  The vote happens, the Scots win, and the Brits go out that night and start murdering Scots.  The Scots manage to fight them off, and push them out of town, and eventually the Brits give up after years of fighting.

Are you really saying the Brits in that situation deserve anything?  And then the Scots go ahead and offer them half the country to live in, and they say no, fuck you, and start murdering scots again?
If Scotland votes to leave the UK then they should be allowed to leave.  If a bunch of Brits don't want to they have the choice of moving to England.  Again, that's a perfect illustration of what could possibly leave to a civil war.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
That's what this is.  It was messy, sure, it would be wouldn't it?  But when the dust clears the victim isn't necessarily the one in the dirt.
No that isn't what this is.  A better example is the British arriving in the Americas and telling the inhabitants there it is no longer their country.

You obviously believe might makes right.  The Israelis decided to make their own country in Palestine.  With the backing of the west they were able to do so and have been able to hold onto it ever since.  it is not a civil war though.  It is a war of conquest.

That's where your misconception is coming from.  Prior to WW2, ~1/3 of the population of the region was Jewish.  It is true that there was immigration of Jews, but it is also true that there was immigration of Arabs and Egyptians.  Astonishingly few of the people there in 1947 can claim to be much more than second generation.  You think there were no Jews in Israel at some point, that it was all the people who now call themselves Palestinians.  That at some point the Jews left and then came back, but it isn't true.  It is true that after the 1947 civil war which created the modern state of Israel, lots of Jewish people emigrated there, with another huge group arriving after the relaxed travel restrictions from the soviet union, which was 1989 ish or something, not going to look it up right now, but it absolutely was a civil war.  It was a particularly brutal civil war, because unlike the U.S. civil war, where there were different regions separated by distance that mobilized and clashed, this was literal neighbors in conflict, your grocer might be the one to set your house on fire that night, sort of fight.  And the Israeli's did not choose to instigate that civil war.

I don't believe that might makes right but I also don't believe that might makes wrong.  The only thing the Israeli's could have done differently is roll over and die.  There is no reason at all to assume that even if they gave up, surrendered to the Palestinians, turned over control to Arabs, that they would be allowed to live in peace.  All evidence in historical fact, modern history, and current rhetoric from the Palestinians makes clear what Israeli's can expect, and it is entirely rational for them to defend themselves.

In any case, I genuinely believe it just comes from you being where I was a few years ago, largely ignorant of the history as you've admitted to, and believing that going back farther than the creation of the modern state isn't necessary for a proper analysis because "how far back do you go."  There's a thousand year + gap between what happened in antiquity and restarting the violence, and no rational person accepts that a grudge like that is justification for a modern conflict.  Forget about what your particular side is arguing, go look at each individual event, plot them on a timeline, be doubtful, you'll get here.

Thanks for arguing with me, I appreciate the opportunity.

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #252 on: December 12, 2017, 10:06:41 AM »
Per Wiki, the Jewish population in Mandatory Palestine at the end of WWI was 94,000, or about 1/7 of the population. They definitely had a pretty sizable/lasting presence by the time of the War of Independence, though it had definitely swelled due the 1930s immigration. But by the time of the war for independence, you're talking about a lot of people who are already there for almost 20 years or more.

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #253 on: December 12, 2017, 10:34:07 AM »
Per Wiki, the Jewish population in Mandatory Palestine at the end of WWI was 94,000, or about 1/7 of the population. They definitely had a pretty sizable/lasting presence by the time of the War of Independence, though it had definitely swelled due the 1930s immigration. But by the time of the war for independence, you're talking about a lot of people who are already there for almost 20 years or more.


1800   - 8%
1890 - 7.6%
1914   - 10.2%
1922 - 11%
1931 - 16.9%
1947   - 32%

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)


Maybe half of the Jewish people involved in the war for independence had been there for 20 years.  There was a pretty substantial flood of both legal and illegal immigration of Jewish people to Palestine between 1931 and 1947, which was the cause of much of the unrest and uneasiness with the Arab population.

wenchsenior

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #254 on: December 12, 2017, 11:08:06 AM »
Per Wiki, the Jewish population in Mandatory Palestine at the end of WWI was 94,000, or about 1/7 of the population. They definitely had a pretty sizable/lasting presence by the time of the War of Independence, though it had definitely swelled due the 1930s immigration. But by the time of the war for independence, you're talking about a lot of people who are already there for almost 20 years or more.


1800   - 8%
1890 - 7.6%
1914   - 10.2%
1922 - 11%
1931 - 16.9%
1947   - 32%

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)


Maybe half of the Jewish people involved in the war for independence had been there for 20 years.  There was a pretty substantial flood of both legal and illegal immigration of Jewish people to Palestine between 1931 and 1947, which was the cause of much of the unrest and uneasiness with the Arab population.

Kind of reminds me of voters who agitate for a Big Beautiful Wall to prevent immigrants from coming in...

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #255 on: December 12, 2017, 01:16:36 PM »
The presence of new Jews doesn't mean the Old Jews aren't there and don't deserve national self-determination. The Arabs made their attempt at stopping the partition plan, which was reasonable in its own logic, and it failed. If you try to resolve disputes by force and end up on the losing side, terms will almost always be less favorable than what you were offered in the first place.

There's nothing particularly unusual about Israel's policies or actions after independence. The only real exception is the not-at-all-discrete nuclear program. The Suez Crisis is pretty blatant aggression, but the UK and France were on board with it, so Israel's actions can't be said to be outside international norms of the time.

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #256 on: December 12, 2017, 02:07:34 PM »
Per Wiki, the Jewish population in Mandatory Palestine at the end of WWI was 94,000, or about 1/7 of the population. They definitely had a pretty sizable/lasting presence by the time of the War of Independence, though it had definitely swelled due the 1930s immigration. But by the time of the war for independence, you're talking about a lot of people who are already there for almost 20 years or more.


1800   - 8%
1890 - 7.6%
1914   - 10.2%
1922 - 11%
1931 - 16.9%
1947   - 32%

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)


Maybe half of the Jewish people involved in the war for independence had been there for 20 years.  There was a pretty substantial flood of both legal and illegal immigration of Jewish people to Palestine between 1931 and 1947, which was the cause of much of the unrest and uneasiness with the Arab population.

Kind of reminds me of voters who agitate for a Big Beautiful Wall to prevent immigrants from coming in...

Not quite.  You would have to imagine if the Mexicans who illegally immigrated and the Americans who already lived there were told by the UN that half of the US belonged to the Mexicans now, and the US was going to be partitioned into two countries.


The presence of new Jews doesn't mean the Old Jews aren't there and don't deserve national self-determination. The Arabs made their attempt at stopping the partition plan, which was reasonable in its own logic, and it failed. If you try to resolve disputes by force and end up on the losing side, terms will almost always be less favorable than what you were offered in the first place.

There's nothing particularly unusual about Israel's policies or actions after independence. The only real exception is the not-at-all-discrete nuclear program. The Suez Crisis is pretty blatant aggression, but the UK and France were on board with it, so Israel's actions can't be said to be outside international norms of the time.

After the Israeli's conquered the people who had been living in the land they wanted with outside help from several Western countries, there's not too much that's outside international norms of the time - agreed.  But the UN telling a bunch of people to move into an area and then arming them/helping them fight off the inhabitants so they can make a new country . . . that's kinda a weird scenario that started the whole mess.

Ders

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #257 on: December 12, 2017, 02:33:03 PM »
This came up on my Quora Digest today:

https://www.quora.com/Is-Palestine-occupied-by-Israel-My-father-who-is-a-Palestinian-said-so-but-some-people-say-otherwise-Who-is-correct

There's some good content and discussion in the comments below.

wenchsenior

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #258 on: December 12, 2017, 02:42:34 PM »
Per Wiki, the Jewish population in Mandatory Palestine at the end of WWI was 94,000, or about 1/7 of the population. They definitely had a pretty sizable/lasting presence by the time of the War of Independence, though it had definitely swelled due the 1930s immigration. But by the time of the war for independence, you're talking about a lot of people who are already there for almost 20 years or more.


1800   - 8%
1890 - 7.6%
1914   - 10.2%
1922 - 11%
1931 - 16.9%
1947   - 32%

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)


Maybe half of the Jewish people involved in the war for independence had been there for 20 years.  There was a pretty substantial flood of both legal and illegal immigration of Jewish people to Palestine between 1931 and 1947, which was the cause of much of the unrest and uneasiness with the Arab population.

Kind of reminds me of voters who agitate for a Big Beautiful Wall to prevent immigrants from coming in...

Not quite.  You would have to imagine if the Mexicans who illegally immigrated and the Americans who already lived there were told by the UN that half of the US belonged to the Mexicans now, and the US was going to be partitioned into two countries.


The presence of new Jews doesn't mean the Old Jews aren't there and don't deserve national self-determination. The Arabs made their attempt at stopping the partition plan, which was reasonable in its own logic, and it failed. If you try to resolve disputes by force and end up on the losing side, terms will almost always be less favorable than what you were offered in the first place.

There's nothing particularly unusual about Israel's policies or actions after independence. The only real exception is the not-at-all-discrete nuclear program. The Suez Crisis is pretty blatant aggression, but the UK and France were on board with it, so Israel's actions can't be said to be outside international norms of the time.

After the Israeli's conquered the people who had been living in the land they wanted with outside help from several Western countries, there's not too much that's outside international norms of the time - agreed.  But the UN telling a bunch of people to move into an area and then arming them/helping them fight off the inhabitants so they can make a new country . . . that's kinda a weird scenario that started the whole mess.

That is similar to another analogy I've always thought of (though not perfect one): prior to the U.S. annexing CA, the population in what became CA was about 3/4ers Latin American/Mexican, and a quarter Spanish, American, and European.  Eventually the escalating conflict with Mexico led to the U.S. annexing and holding the state.  But many decades later, descendants of all the original groups were still there.  It would be very strange to then suddenly declare (lets say) southern CA to be an independent nation to be held by the descendants of Mexican residents, and relegate all citizens who were descendants of the European and American who lived there to second class status.



A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #259 on: December 12, 2017, 03:19:28 PM »
Per Wiki, the Jewish population in Mandatory Palestine at the end of WWI was 94,000, or about 1/7 of the population. They definitely had a pretty sizable/lasting presence by the time of the War of Independence, though it had definitely swelled due the 1930s immigration. But by the time of the war for independence, you're talking about a lot of people who are already there for almost 20 years or more.


1800   - 8%
1890 - 7.6%
1914   - 10.2%
1922 - 11%
1931 - 16.9%
1947   - 32%

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)


Maybe half of the Jewish people involved in the war for independence had been there for 20 years.  There was a pretty substantial flood of both legal and illegal immigration of Jewish people to Palestine between 1931 and 1947, which was the cause of much of the unrest and uneasiness with the Arab population.

Kind of reminds me of voters who agitate for a Big Beautiful Wall to prevent immigrants from coming in...

Not quite.  You would have to imagine if the Mexicans who illegally immigrated and the Americans who already lived there were told by the UN that half of the US belonged to the Mexicans now, and the US was going to be partitioned into two countries.


The presence of new Jews doesn't mean the Old Jews aren't there and don't deserve national self-determination. The Arabs made their attempt at stopping the partition plan, which was reasonable in its own logic, and it failed. If you try to resolve disputes by force and end up on the losing side, terms will almost always be less favorable than what you were offered in the first place.

There's nothing particularly unusual about Israel's policies or actions after independence. The only real exception is the not-at-all-discrete nuclear program. The Suez Crisis is pretty blatant aggression, but the UK and France were on board with it, so Israel's actions can't be said to be outside international norms of the time.

After the Israeli's conquered the people who had been living in the land they wanted with outside help from several Western countries, there's not too much that's outside international norms of the time - agreed.  But the UN telling a bunch of people to move into an area and then arming them/helping them fight off the inhabitants so they can make a new country . . . that's kinda a weird scenario that started the whole mess.

It's a bit weird, but mess is baked into the cake in the Middle East, and given the volume of illegal immigration into Mandate Palestine, I don't think the UK could've really prevented the mess. Plus Jordan was eyeing up Palestine the entire time.

PKFFW

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #260 on: December 13, 2017, 02:44:08 AM »
That's where your misconception is coming from.  Prior to WW2, ~1/3 of the population of the region was Jewish.  It is true that there was immigration of Jews, but it is also true that there was immigration of Arabs and Egyptians.  Astonishingly few of the people there in 1947 can claim to be much more than second generation.  You think there were no Jews in Israel at some point, that it was all the people who now call themselves Palestinians.
No I don't think that at all.

The situation is analogous to the USA.  There are a bunch of Mexicans living there and have been ever since the USA conquered the whole New Mexico area.  That doesn't mean they get to declare a part of the USA to be their own and create their own country.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
That at some point the Jews left and then came back, but it isn't true.
No again.

At some point, a few centuries ago, the Jewish people were conquered and the Arabs took over the place.  That's unfortunate but it's also ancient history.  Yes, some Jews remained.  Again, analogous to the Brits coming to the USA and taking over from the Native Americans.  Yes some of them are left in the USA.  The solution today is not for the Native Americans to grab a patch of land and declare it their own country and then to start expanding that area whenever they feel like it.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
It is true that after the 1947 civil war which created the modern state of Israel, lots of Jewish people emigrated there, with another huge group arriving after the relaxed travel restrictions from the soviet union, which was 1989 ish or something, not going to look it up right now, but it absolutely was a civil war.  It was a particularly brutal civil war, because unlike the U.S. civil war, where there were different regions separated by distance that mobilized and clashed, this was literal neighbors in conflict, your grocer might be the one to set your house on fire that night, sort of fight.  And the Israeli's did not choose to instigate that civil war.
Civil war -
"a war between citizens of the same country"

So no, not a civil war as the Jewish people in the region were not citizens of the same country as the Palestinians.  As you have mentioned previously, they were stateless and happened to be living in a part of another country.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
I don't believe that might makes right but I also don't believe that might makes wrong.
So it's not right or wrong to take over part of another nation state and decide it is now yours just because you have the military to do so.  Gotcha.

I guess it mostly depends on which side you're on.  I'm betting if the Palestinians had the military might to win the conflict in a decisive and final way you would have no problem with that?
Quote from: TheoldesYoungMan
The only thing the Israeli's could have done differently is roll over and die.  There is no reason at all to assume that even if they gave up, surrendered to the Palestinians, turned over control to Arabs, that they would be allowed to live in peace.  All evidence in historical fact, modern history, and current rhetoric from the Palestinians makes clear what Israeli's can expect, and it is entirely rational for them to defend themselves.
I agree there is no evidence to suggest they would be left alone to live in peace if they turned over control to the Palestinians.  I'll even agree that if they all up and left and created a new Israel in, say, the USA, the fundamentalist Muslim minority would still probably want to kill them.  Of course setting up in the USA isn't going to happen because the USA isn't partial to having parts of its territory annexed and given away and has the military might to ensure that doesn't happen whereas the Palestinians didn't.

Of course that has nothing to do with what started the present conflict, which was the point I was discussing.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
In any case, I genuinely believe it just comes from you being where I was a few years ago, largely ignorant of the history as you've admitted to,
I never admitted to being "largely ignorant".  I do admit you've pointed out a couple of minor points I didn't know.  The rest is a matter of opinion that we differ on, not indisputable historical facts that I am ignorant of.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
and believing that going back farther than the creation of the modern state isn't necessary for a proper analysis because "how far back do you go."
Let me be clear.  I do understand that one needs to go back further than the creation of the modern state of Israel to understand the historical hostility between Arabs and Jews.  That historical enmity of course plays a part in the modern conflict.

What I don't agree with is that you can unilaterally decide on a point of origin that suits your argument and claim that is undeniably the beginning of the current conflict.  If you want to go back before the creation of the modern state of Israel then go back and look at it all.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
There's a thousand year + gap between what happened in antiquity and restarting the violence, and no rational person accepts that a grudge like that is justification for a modern conflict.  Forget about what your particular side is arguing, go look at each individual event, plot them on a timeline, be doubtful, you'll get here.
Your attitude of smug superiority and condescending implication that I will "get there" if only I educate myself seems a lot like the "smug liberalism" that so many in this thread (yourself included I think though I couldn't be bothered going back through your posts to be certain about) have railed against.  I guess it's ok to be a smug conservative though.
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
Thanks for arguing with me, I appreciate the opportunity.
Except for the above mentioned attitude it's been interesting.

Dabnasty

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #261 on: December 13, 2017, 07:45:31 AM »
Quote from: TheOldestYoungMan
There's a thousand year + gap between what happened in antiquity and restarting the violence, and no rational person accepts that a grudge like that is justification for a modern conflict.  Forget about what your particular side is arguing, go look at each individual event, plot them on a timeline, be doubtful, you'll get here.
Your attitude of smug superiority and condescending implication that I will "get there" if only I educate myself seems a lot like the "smug liberalism" that so many in this thread (yourself included I think though I couldn't be bothered going back through your posts to be certain about) have railed against.  I guess it's ok to be a smug conservative though.
It was definitely TOYM, on several occasions. He posted an article about it.

In a political environment where people have become this divided it's no surprise that those on both sides are acting smug. Not all, but many. When you think you know something and you have enough sources (reputable or not) to back you up it takes effort not to act smug, effort which TOYM has not put forth. Not in this debate and not in the many lengthy rants he's gone on lately.


MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #262 on: December 13, 2017, 11:06:38 AM »
The more important the position the more important policy matters.  The less important the position, the more important character matters.  This is why Trump won, and Roy Moore lost.  A senate seat was important enough to make it close. 

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #263 on: December 13, 2017, 11:34:26 AM »
There's nothing inherently wrong with ethnic Mexicans in the United States who no longer identify as American demanding their own nation or even demanding to become part of Mexico. It really doesn't make a lot of sense, since they already HAVE a nation just south of the US, but there's nothing inherently wrong in it, either. If the US wishes to stop this possibility, it should bar immigration from Mexico and pursue policies that bolster a common American identity, which also isn't inherently wrong.

You'd also have to be an idiot to want to keep such people in the nation, particularly after decades of already existing conflict. You think I'd want to keep SoCal if it becomes overrun with Mexican revanchists that operate their own militias and multiple civil wars? Yeah, no, I'm not sending millions of people to their deaths in an effort to retain San Diego. If I try and I end up losing all of California due to Mexico wanting to safeguard its new territory, thems the breaks. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #264 on: December 13, 2017, 11:39:34 AM »
The more important the position the more important policy matters.  The less important the position, the more important character matters.  This is why Trump won, and Roy Moore lost.  A senate seat was important enough to make it close.

Which particular aspects of Trump's policy do you believe won him the election?

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #265 on: December 13, 2017, 12:22:09 PM »
The more important the position the more important policy matters.  The less important the position, the more important character matters.  This is why Trump won, and Roy Moore lost.  A senate seat was important enough to make it close.

Which particular aspects of Trump's policy do you believe won him the election?

Mainly his strongly held policy of not being Hillary Clinton. 

Now, which policies won him the primary?  No freaking clue.  Not being Jeb Bush or Rubio helped.  But Cruz was also not Jeb Bush or Rubio. 
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 12:23:51 PM by Jrr85 »

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #266 on: December 13, 2017, 02:20:38 PM »
https://shareblue.com/gop-went-all-in-for-pedophilia-and-they-can-never-undo-it/

Quote
Not only did Roy Moore lose Alabama’s Senate race against Doug Jones, but in the process, the Republican Party cemented its status as a safe space for pedophilia.

A moment of moral cowardice will stain the party for years to come.

Despite his sordid past and bigoted present, Moore was able to count on the support of Donald Trump, who used his status as president to aggressively campaign on Moore’s behalf. Trump, who has admitted to sexually assaulting women, was eager to back his fellow Republican, even as credible reports of pedophilia surfaced.

Quote
Thanks to the political maneuvering of its leadership, the linkage of pedophilia and the Republican Party will be cemented, further turning the party that once claimed Abraham Lincoln into one in which serial sexual assault, racism, and now child molestation is no stumbling block in the pursuit of power.

This is your modern day GOP.  I certainly couldn't sleep at night voting Republican.

wenchsenior

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #267 on: December 13, 2017, 02:29:15 PM »
https://shareblue.com/gop-went-all-in-for-pedophilia-and-they-can-never-undo-it/

Quote
Not only did Roy Moore lose Alabama’s Senate race against Doug Jones, but in the process, the Republican Party cemented its status as a safe space for pedophilia.

A moment of moral cowardice will stain the party for years to come.

Despite his sordid past and bigoted present, Moore was able to count on the support of Donald Trump, who used his status as president to aggressively campaign on Moore’s behalf. Trump, who has admitted to sexually assaulting women, was eager to back his fellow Republican, even as credible reports of pedophilia surfaced.

Quote
Thanks to the political maneuvering of its leadership, the linkage of pedophilia and the Republican Party will be cemented, further turning the party that once claimed Abraham Lincoln into one in which serial sexual assault, racism, and now child molestation is no stumbling block in the pursuit of power.

This is your modern day GOP.  I certainly couldn't sleep at night voting Republican.

At this point I would not be surprised to see the GOP party apparatus offer financial support to an avowed neoNazi for office.  Or even someone convicted of murder.  Seriously, I thought things were bad under W, but I'm pretty sure the party has reached a point of having no depth to which it will not dive.  I would NEVER have believed this 10 years ago.

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #268 on: December 13, 2017, 03:26:45 PM »
At this point I would not be surprised to see the GOP party apparatus offer financial support to an avowed neoNazi for office. 

Will the Nazi vote for tax cuts for billionaires?

As I've previously pointed out in other threads, the republican party doesn't actually care about social issues or religion.  It only cares about protecting the financial interests of the ultra-rich donors that fund the party coffers and pay all of the party salaries.  So Nazis are probably fine, as long as they support tax reform.  Pedophiles apparently get their full support, too.  And we know that generic (non-pedo) sexual predators are on the approved list, since they nominated an avowed pussy grabber.

All forms of social evils will continue to be acceptable to the GOP until actual conservative Americans retake their party from the hands of the plutocrats that currently run their show.  Average Americans who legitimately share the party's stated (but not lived) positions on social issues seemingly haven't noticed the GOP's complete betrayal of those values in pursuit of toxic wealth transfers from the poor to the rich.

Nothing could be more unamerican than the GOP's current fiscal policies.  They are anti-individualism, anti-bootstrap, anti-hard-work, and anti-personal-responsibility.  Since the party no longer supports conservative social values (see: Moore, Trump), what else is left for those voters?

In that light it's almost shocking that Alabama was a close election.  Maybe people are starting to catch on the con?  At least the ones under 65?

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #269 on: December 13, 2017, 03:42:27 PM »
I just don't see that happening. What you are seeing is the RESULT of the "actual American conservatives" taking back the party from the plutocrat RINOs. They cannot build any sort of majority, so they are stuck supporting all manner of unsavory characters to keep their policy positions. They'd sooner unseat John McCain than they would Roy Moore, because McCain voted against ACA and Moore wouldn't. They'd be less inclined to have this positon if they had 60 votes in the Senate, but they don't.

MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #270 on: December 14, 2017, 11:40:48 AM »
The more important the position the more important policy matters.  The less important the position, the more important character matters.  This is why Trump won, and Roy Moore lost.  A senate seat was important enough to make it close.

Which particular aspects of Trump's policy do you believe won him the election?
I probably didn't state what I meant very well.  I meant because the president is the most important position in government, a lot of people were willing to overlook his character flaws.  Many Republicans voted for him because he was claiming to be Republican, even though we/they disliked him personally.

At work yesterday, I heard something along the lines of, "Would I leave my kids alone with Roy Moore?  Of course not.  But he is more likely to make the country the way I think is best than Doug Jones."

The twitter spam, his lack of respect for women and minorities, his ego, and anything else you personally don't like about the man, can all be overlooked if you believe his policy will make America better than the opponent's policy.  Hillary would follow a similar path as Obama, and I did not like much of Obama's policy.  Sadly, Hillary was the only other realistic choice.

Of course Trump didn't win on policy alone, but a lot of people who disliked him, still voted for him because of the R by his name.  And because it's for the most powerful government position in the US, that was enough.

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #271 on: December 14, 2017, 11:48:09 AM »
The more important the position the more important policy matters.  The less important the position, the more important character matters.  This is why Trump won, and Roy Moore lost.  A senate seat was important enough to make it close.

Which particular aspects of Trump's policy do you believe won him the election?
I probably didn't state what I meant very well.  I meant because the president is the most important position in government, a lot of people were willing to overlook his character flaws.  Many Republicans voted for him because he was claiming to be Republican, even though we/they disliked him personally.

At work yesterday, I heard something along the lines of, "Would I leave my kids alone with Roy Moore?  Of course not.  But he is more likely to make the country the way I think is best than Doug Jones."

The twitter spam, his lack of respect for women and minorities, his ego, and anything else you personally don't like about the man, can all be overlooked if you believe his policy will make America better than the opponent's policy.  Hillary would follow a similar path as Obama, and I did not like much of Obama's policy.  Sadly, Hillary was the only other realistic choice.

Of course Trump didn't win on policy alone, but a lot of people who disliked him, still voted for him because of the R by his name.  And because it's for the most powerful government position in the US, that was enough.

Yeah, but . . . much of his policy was pretty flawed from an implementation standpoint.

He wanted to build a wall between Mexico and the US.  He wanted to prevent Muslims from entering the country.  He wanted to repeal the ACA.  He promised to lock up Hilary Clinton.

Did people not understand that this policy would be nigh impossible to follow through on?

MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #272 on: December 14, 2017, 01:37:02 PM »
*Snip*

Yeah, but . . . much of his policy was pretty flawed from an implementation standpoint.

He wanted to build a wall between Mexico and the US.  He wanted to prevent Muslims from entering the country.  He wanted to repeal the ACA.  He promised to lock up Hilary Clinton.

Did people not understand that this policy would be nigh impossible to follow through on?
If you understand much of his policies would nearly be impossible to follow through on, and then you understand that all politicians have policy that's impossible/nearly impossible to implement. 

If you don't understand much of his policies would nearly be impossible to follow through on, then you probably won't be paying attention when they don't get implemented.

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #273 on: December 14, 2017, 02:10:34 PM »
*Snip*

Yeah, but . . . much of his policy was pretty flawed from an implementation standpoint.

He wanted to build a wall between Mexico and the US.  He wanted to prevent Muslims from entering the country.  He wanted to repeal the ACA.  He promised to lock up Hilary Clinton.

Did people not understand that this policy would be nigh impossible to follow through on?
If you understand much of his policies would nearly be impossible to follow through on, and then you understand that all politicians have policy that's impossible/nearly impossible to implement. 

Typically the impossible stuff doesn't make up the majority of the stated policy positions.

talltexan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #274 on: December 15, 2017, 07:39:11 AM »

So basically, you are saying that you don't believe in the entire concept of international relations or diplomacy. OOKay. I'm sure you know so much more about this than diplomats, military leaders, and power brokers dealing with people in these countries all these decades. If you want to create an us vs them situation, sure that's easy to do. If you want to have these other countries to buy into controlling and guiding their own people away from violent acts, you have given them no, actually negative motivation to do so. I'm not sure what that accomplishes, and it sure seems like you have little to no regard for innocents who are casualties on either side.


As to me knowing more than all these experts, of course I don't know more than them, but I can look at the state of the Middle East right now and see the most stable part of it is Israel, probably Saudi Arabia too.  Normalized relations with us is apparently good for you.  Kuwait seems like a pretty decent place to live, having decided to not try and kill us and just sell us oil.  It isn't that not choosing violence means we'll be nice to you and stop our negative mojo and you'll be a successful stable country, it's that if you're choosing violence everything is unstable and eventually turns to shit.

I can look at world leaders, who specifically cite not wanting to incite terrorist violence, and call them cowards and idiots besides.  The terrorist violence has never needed a reason, and if they did, that ship sailed long ago.  The sooner we stop trying to reason with people who left the negotiating table long ago, the better off we'll all be.

If you think Saudi Arabia is stable right now, I'd suggest more study: THE ECONOMIST has some pretty in-depth reporting about Crown Prince MBS's recent power plays, including imprisoning one of his wealthiest cousins. The power structure and economy there are very fragile, and the looming IPO of ARAMCO could either make them or break them. They are being drained of resources by the proxy war in Yemen. This is a country with several major threats right now.

talltexan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #275 on: December 15, 2017, 07:46:45 AM »
The more important the position the more important policy matters.  The less important the position, the more important character matters.  This is why Trump won, and Roy Moore lost.  A senate seat was important enough to make it close.

Which particular aspects of Trump's policy do you believe won him the election?
I probably didn't state what I meant very well.  I meant because the president is the most important position in government, a lot of people were willing to overlook his character flaws.  Many Republicans voted for him because he was claiming to be Republican, even though we/they disliked him personally.

At work yesterday, I heard something along the lines of, "Would I leave my kids alone with Roy Moore?  Of course not.  But he is more likely to make the country the way I think is best than Doug Jones."

The twitter spam, his lack of respect for women and minorities, his ego, and anything else you personally don't like about the man, can all be overlooked if you believe his policy will make America better than the opponent's policy.  Hillary would follow a similar path as Obama, and I did not like much of Obama's policy.  Sadly, Hillary was the only other realistic choice.

Of course Trump didn't win on policy alone, but a lot of people who disliked him, still voted for him because of the R by his name.  And because it's for the most powerful government position in the US, that was enough.

Yeah, but . . . much of his policy was pretty flawed from an implementation standpoint.

He wanted to build a wall between Mexico and the US.  He wanted to prevent Muslims from entering the country.  He wanted to repeal the ACA.  He promised to lock up Hilary Clinton.

Did people not understand that this policy would be nigh impossible to follow through on?

I consider myself a bit of a technocrat and couldn't understand why Trump's incoherent positions appealed to voters. But I heard from several experts who work for the major forecasting firms--think IHS, Moody's, etc.--who said they found the sheer volume of policy papers released to them by the Clinton campaign equally difficult to parse. Her campaign simply created soooo many policies that it would have been impossible to do more than a small fraction of them, particularly with a GOP House.

Just Joe

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #276 on: December 15, 2017, 07:47:53 AM »
If you think Saudi Arabia is stable right now, I'd suggest more study: THE ECONOMIST has some pretty in-depth reporting about Crown Prince MBS's recent power plays, including imprisoning one of his wealthiest cousins. The power structure and economy there are very fragile, and the looming IPO of ARAMCO could either make them or break them. They are being drained of resources by the proxy war in Yemen. This is a country with several major threats right now.

$4 gasoline by summer again?

talltexan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #277 on: December 15, 2017, 08:13:05 AM »
their inability to push up the price of gas is one of those threats.

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #278 on: December 15, 2017, 08:41:21 AM »

So basically, you are saying that you don't believe in the entire concept of international relations or diplomacy. OOKay. I'm sure you know so much more about this than diplomats, military leaders, and power brokers dealing with people in these countries all these decades. If you want to create an us vs them situation, sure that's easy to do. If you want to have these other countries to buy into controlling and guiding their own people away from violent acts, you have given them no, actually negative motivation to do so. I'm not sure what that accomplishes, and it sure seems like you have little to no regard for innocents who are casualties on either side.


As to me knowing more than all these experts, of course I don't know more than them, but I can look at the state of the Middle East right now and see the most stable part of it is Israel, probably Saudi Arabia too.  Normalized relations with us is apparently good for you.  Kuwait seems like a pretty decent place to live, having decided to not try and kill us and just sell us oil.  It isn't that not choosing violence means we'll be nice to you and stop our negative mojo and you'll be a successful stable country, it's that if you're choosing violence everything is unstable and eventually turns to shit.

I can look at world leaders, who specifically cite not wanting to incite terrorist violence, and call them cowards and idiots besides.  The terrorist violence has never needed a reason, and if they did, that ship sailed long ago.  The sooner we stop trying to reason with people who left the negotiating table long ago, the better off we'll all be.

If you think Saudi Arabia is stable right now, I'd suggest more study: THE ECONOMIST has some pretty in-depth reporting about Crown Prince MBS's recent power plays, including imprisoning one of his wealthiest cousins. The power structure and economy there are very fragile, and the looming IPO of ARAMCO could either make them or break them. They are being drained of resources by the proxy war in Yemen. This is a country with several major threats right now.

Yup, but compare SA to its neighbors. I think Jordan is more stable, but SA is a sight better than anyone else. Maybe you can make an argument that Iran is more stable...but I think that'd be tenuous.

Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #279 on: December 15, 2017, 11:32:28 AM »
*Snip*

Yeah, but . . . much of his policy was pretty flawed from an implementation standpoint.

He wanted to build a wall between Mexico and the US.  He wanted to prevent Muslims from entering the country.  He wanted to repeal the ACA.  He promised to lock up Hilary Clinton.

Did people not understand that this policy would be nigh impossible to follow through on?
If you understand much of his policies would nearly be impossible to follow through on, and then you understand that all politicians have policy that's impossible/nearly impossible to implement. 

Typically the impossible stuff doesn't make up the majority of the stated policy positions.

It really does, at least implicitly.  If any politician tried to pitch realistic policy, they'd be lucky to even make it on the ballot, much less compete in any election.  It's pretty much a prerequisite for any politician in a federal position to pretend that we are going to be able to continue providing entitlements at the "promised" level and that whoever has to pay for them, it will be somebody else, not you the voter. 

CheapScholar

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #280 on: December 15, 2017, 06:49:56 PM »
I always vote straight ticket GOP.  I wouldn't say I regret voting for W, because Gore would have been worse.  I definitely do NOT regret voting for Trump.  Honestly, best two votes I ever cast (primary and general).  I'm a paleoconservative and love McKinley and the early 20th century GOP.  Can't wait for Trump to get us out of NAFTA.

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marty998

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #282 on: December 16, 2017, 05:15:05 PM »
I wouldn't say I regret voting for W, because Gore would have been worse.

I'm always curious on what basis these claims are made. (e.g. Hillary would be worse).

It's really not possible to know, because they were never in power so you cannot make that judgement.

One might wonder if the simple act of gaining power changes people. In the case of certain Australian politicians recently, on ascension to the top job there have been fundamental changes in those people and a significant weakening of their convictions.

It's easy to spout hyper partisan policy when you are preaching to your base in the pre-election campaigning period (which is probably what you are basing your "Al Gore would be worse" assumption on). Everyone moderates when they are in power, and the same will happen with your current dear leader.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 05:22:21 PM by marty998 »

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #283 on: December 16, 2017, 09:36:21 PM »

Everyone moderates when they are in power, and the same will happen with your current dear leader.

We keep waiting for Trump to show some hint of decorum or intelligent forethought to his actions, but so far it's all "she's a fat pig" and "grab 'em by the pussy" and Nazis are very fine people and Little Rocket Man and BUILD THE WALL, BUILD THE WALL over and over again.  Last week he accused a female senator who accused him of sexual misconduct of offering him a blowjob in exchange for a campaign contribution.

He calls it being "modern day presidential".

Just Joe

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #284 on: December 17, 2017, 09:19:50 PM »
Trump has been a real treat to behold...

talltexan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #285 on: December 18, 2017, 09:54:54 AM »

Everyone moderates when they are in power, and the same will happen with your current dear leader.

We keep waiting for Trump to show some hint of decorum or intelligent forethought to his actions, but so far it's all "she's a fat pig" and "grab 'em by the pussy" and Nazis are very fine people and Little Rocket Man and BUILD THE WALL, BUILD THE WALL over and over again.  Last week he accused a female senator who accused him of sexual misconduct of offering him a blowjob in exchange for a campaign contribution.

He calls it being "modern day presidential".

I don't think this is being fair to the "moderates in power" claim; Trump has moderated in many policy dimensions by moving toward mainstream conservative Republican positions. See the Health Care bills, the tax plan, appointment of judges.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #286 on: December 18, 2017, 10:00:48 AM »

Everyone moderates when they are in power, and the same will happen with your current dear leader.

We keep waiting for Trump to show some hint of decorum or intelligent forethought to his actions, but so far it's all "she's a fat pig" and "grab 'em by the pussy" and Nazis are very fine people and Little Rocket Man and BUILD THE WALL, BUILD THE WALL over and over again.  Last week he accused a female senator who accused him of sexual misconduct of offering him a blowjob in exchange for a campaign contribution.

He calls it being "modern day presidential".

I don't think this is being fair to the "moderates in power" claim; Trump has moderated in many policy dimensions by moving toward mainstream conservative Republican positions. See the Health Care bills, the tax plan, appointment of judges.

Maybe don't hang your hat on this one .... Gorsuch I get, but Petersen? Talley?

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #287 on: December 18, 2017, 10:01:20 AM »
Trump has moderated in many policy dimensions by moving toward mainstream conservative Republican positions. See the ... appointment of judges.

Mainstream conservative Republicans want judges appointed who have never tried a case to verdict in a courtroom, never tried a case in state or federal court, never argued a motion, or conducted a deposition on their own like Petersen?  Is being totally unqualified for a position something that conservative Republicans are really clamoring for?  If so, why?

Lagom

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #288 on: December 18, 2017, 11:14:31 AM »
Trump has moderated in many policy dimensions by moving toward mainstream conservative Republican positions. See the ... appointment of judges.

Mainstream conservative Republicans want judges appointed who have never tried a case to verdict in a courtroom, never tried a case in state or federal court, never argued a motion, or conducted a deposition on their own like Petersen?  Is being totally unqualified for a position something that conservative Republicans are really clamoring for?  If so, why?

Same reason they don't mind electing child molesters and serial pussy grabbers to office, because these "mainstream" choices will make sure the "right" laws are passed/upheld. The depths of these official's incompetence is irrelevant as long as they check the right boxes on wedge issues. Amazingly, these so-callled "mainstream" republicans have convinced themselves this is somehow politics as usual.

ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #289 on: December 18, 2017, 03:12:38 PM »
I regret that I voted for trump. I did so largely, because I thought Clinton would win, and wanted to not add to any mandate she felt she had.

That said, locally, our Democrats are a disaster. My mayor is an idiot, who talks about 'science based' driving his policy, yet he can't grasp the basic data about a number of issues I'm working on in my area. Then there's 'dopey' jeff merkely. Ive met the guy, and I'm surprised he was able to read a teleprompter long enough to make his campaign adds. He's not corrupt that I know of, but just... he's not bright. Or wyden. He doesn't even LIVE in this state anymore.

Not to mention kate brown... a poster child for failure. I won't go into this here, but she's awful.  So, I have no regrets about voting for Republicans locally, or the candidates for the house/senate who ran here... but, now that things have come to light about a state rep who is in the middle of his own sexual harassment scandal, I wouldn't be able to support him if he were in my district. I hope someone qualified comes along I could support.


former player

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #290 on: December 19, 2017, 02:15:39 AM »
I regret that I voted for trump. I did so largely, because I thought Clinton would win, and wanted to not add to any mandate she felt she had.

That said, locally, our Democrats are a disaster. My mayor is an idiot, who talks about 'science based' driving his policy, yet he can't grasp the basic data about a number of issues I'm working on in my area. Then there's 'dopey' jeff merkely. Ive met the guy, and I'm surprised he was able to read a teleprompter long enough to make his campaign adds. He's not corrupt that I know of, but just... he's not bright. Or wyden. He doesn't even LIVE in this state anymore.

Not to mention kate brown... a poster child for failure. I won't go into this here, but she's awful.  So, I have no regrets about voting for Republicans locally, or the candidates for the house/senate who ran here... but, now that things have come to light about a state rep who is in the middle of his own sexual harassment scandal, I wouldn't be able to support him if he were in my district. I hope someone qualified comes along I could support.
Become the solution: stand for something yourself.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #291 on: December 19, 2017, 08:35:17 AM »
I'm a paleoconservative and love McKinley and the early 20th century GOP.

The modern day GOP looks nothing like the early 20th century GOP.

talltexan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #292 on: December 19, 2017, 08:39:21 AM »
Trump has moderated in many policy dimensions by moving toward mainstream conservative Republican positions. See the ... appointment of judges.

Mainstream conservative Republicans want judges appointed who have never tried a case to verdict in a courtroom, never tried a case in state or federal court, never argued a motion, or conducted a deposition on their own like Petersen?  Is being totally unqualified for a position something that conservative Republicans are really clamoring for?  If so, why?

I believe you're referencing the completely unqualified judge who's been circulating on the internet. Indeed he is even less qualified for a judge-ship than Harriet Miers (a W appointee) was for the Supreme Court. But there are many qualified judges who are very strict constitutionalists that Trump is appointing (guys like Don Willet). He's basically going down a Federalist Society Roster to name them. And--if you're a true conservative--you should be excited about these judges.

If you're to the left, you find these people horrifying not because of their knowledge of the law, but because you think originalism is not a legitimate legal doctrine.

Kris

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #293 on: December 19, 2017, 08:43:11 AM »
Trump has moderated in many policy dimensions by moving toward mainstream conservative Republican positions. See the ... appointment of judges.

Mainstream conservative Republicans want judges appointed who have never tried a case to verdict in a courtroom, never tried a case in state or federal court, never argued a motion, or conducted a deposition on their own like Petersen?  Is being totally unqualified for a position something that conservative Republicans are really clamoring for?  If so, why?

I believe you're referencing the completely unqualified judge who's been circulating on the internet. Indeed he is even less qualified for a judge-ship than Harriet Miers (a W appointee) was for the Supreme Court. But there are many qualified judges who are very strict constitutionalists that Trump is appointing (guys like Don Willet). He's basically going down a Federalist Society Roster to name them. And--if you're a true conservative--you should be excited about these judges.

If you're to the left, you find these people horrifying not because of their knowledge of the law, but because you think originalism is not a legitimate legal doctrine.

In the case of Gorsuch, I think it's more because Mitch McConnell literally stole the nomination from Obama when he refused to have hearings on Merrick Garland for ten F'ing months.

jinga nation

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #294 on: December 19, 2017, 10:31:53 AM »

So basically, you are saying that you don't believe in the entire concept of international relations or diplomacy. OOKay. I'm sure you know so much more about this than diplomats, military leaders, and power brokers dealing with people in these countries all these decades. If you want to create an us vs them situation, sure that's easy to do. If you want to have these other countries to buy into controlling and guiding their own people away from violent acts, you have given them no, actually negative motivation to do so. I'm not sure what that accomplishes, and it sure seems like you have little to no regard for innocents who are casualties on either side.


As to me knowing more than all these experts, of course I don't know more than them, but I can look at the state of the Middle East right now and see the most stable part of it is Israel, probably Saudi Arabia too.  Normalized relations with us is apparently good for you.  Kuwait seems like a pretty decent place to live, having decided to not try and kill us and just sell us oil.  It isn't that not choosing violence means we'll be nice to you and stop our negative mojo and you'll be a successful stable country, it's that if you're choosing violence everything is unstable and eventually turns to shit.

I can look at world leaders, who specifically cite not wanting to incite terrorist violence, and call them cowards and idiots besides.  The terrorist violence has never needed a reason, and if they did, that ship sailed long ago.  The sooner we stop trying to reason with people who left the negotiating table long ago, the better off we'll all be.

If you think Saudi Arabia is stable right now, I'd suggest more study: THE ECONOMIST has some pretty in-depth reporting about Crown Prince MBS's recent power plays, including imprisoning one of his wealthiest cousins. The power structure and economy there are very fragile, and the looming IPO of ARAMCO could either make them or break them. They are being drained of resources by the proxy war in Yemen. This is a country with several major threats right now.

Yup, but compare SA to its neighbors. I think Jordan is more stable, but SA is a sight better than anyone else. Maybe you can make an argument that Iran is more stable...but I think that'd be tenuous.
The Middle-East is closer to a complete breakdown than to an all-around peace treaty. All the stability you see reported by media is made-up. There's tons of micro peace-deals between warring tribes and factions. The US Military works hard to earn the trust of their counterparts, respect is destroyed by a series of tweets from POTUS. Stability is a relative term. Get your news from Vice.

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #295 on: December 19, 2017, 10:35:01 AM »
In the case of Gorsuch, I think it's more because Mitch McConnell literally stole the nomination from Obama when he refused to have hearings on Merrick Garland for ten F'ing months.

Yea, that was SUPER "originalist".

I suspect the irony is lost on most people.  Blatantly disregard the constitution in order to deprive our democracy of its legally defined judicial replacement process, in the name of protecting the constitution.

It's not too different from draining the swamp by appointing lobbyists, or helping the middle class by passing a tax bill for rich people, or prosecuting the corrupt Clinton campaign by colluding with Russia, or giving everyone great insurance by depriving 13 million people of insurance.  The entire Trump operation has been one long experiment in finding out just how blatantly you can lie to your own voters before they finally turn on you.  The consistency of his betrayals is breathtaking.  It's not even hypocrisy anymore, I think he's just trolling his supporters on purpose.

Judicial appointments are just icing on the cake.  He's telling everyone he's defending the constitution by supporting people who have made their careers by shredding it.  I wish I could be shocked.

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #296 on: December 19, 2017, 10:37:26 AM »
Trump has moderated in many policy dimensions by moving toward mainstream conservative Republican positions. See the ... appointment of judges.

Mainstream conservative Republicans want judges appointed who have never tried a case to verdict in a courtroom, never tried a case in state or federal court, never argued a motion, or conducted a deposition on their own like Petersen?  Is being totally unqualified for a position something that conservative Republicans are really clamoring for?  If so, why?

I believe you're referencing the completely unqualified judge who's been circulating on the internet.

The "judge" you're referring to worked for the FEC and had never held the position of judge (in fact had minimal legal experience of any kind given that he had only worked as a lawyer for three years).  His appointment has been circulating on the internet because he was selected by Donald Trump for nomination as a United States District Judge . . . with what appears to be minimal knowledge of law at all.  That's kinda weird.

As you pointed out, it's not like there's a dearth of qualified people with right wing viewpoints.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #297 on: December 19, 2017, 11:32:03 AM »
Judicial appointments are just icing on the cake.  He's telling everyone he's defending the constitution by supporting people who have made their careers by shredding it.  I wish I could be shocked.

Are they though? Laws can be changed. Elected officials come and go. Federal judges are really hard to impeach.

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #298 on: December 19, 2017, 11:53:07 AM »
Judicial appointments are just icing on the cake.  He's telling everyone he's defending the constitution by supporting people who have made their careers by shredding it.  I wish I could be shocked.

Are they though? Laws can be changed. Elected officials come and go. Federal judges are really hard to impeach.

You're suggesting that undermining the constitution by appointing anti-constitutionalist judges is actually the cake, and the rest of the administration's campaign betrayals are the icing because they can theoretically be reversed by future elections?

Sure, I can see the merit in that perspective.  Unfortunately, this does not make me feel any better about the future of my country.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #299 on: December 19, 2017, 01:39:51 PM »
Judicial appointments are just icing on the cake.  He's telling everyone he's defending the constitution by supporting people who have made their careers by shredding it.  I wish I could be shocked.

Are they though? Laws can be changed. Elected officials come and go. Federal judges are really hard to impeach.

You're suggesting that undermining the constitution by appointing anti-constitutionalist judges is actually the cake, and the rest of the administration's campaign betrayals are the icing because they can theoretically be reversed by future elections?

Basically, yes. That, and banning abortion.

Quote from: sol
Sure, I can see the merit in that perspective.  Unfortunately, this does not make me feel any better about the future of my country.

Well yeah, I didn't say you should feel better about that.