Author Topic: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?  (Read 88280 times)

talltexan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #200 on: December 08, 2017, 09:28:05 AM »
I am new to this thread, but I would love to hear from Trump *Primary* voters as well. I'm assuming everyone here so far was merely comparing him to Sec. Clinton. But I would really like to hear from people who were comparing him to guys like John Kasich.

accolay

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #201 on: December 08, 2017, 10:32:07 AM »
What makes you a smug liberal is not that you pointed it out, it's that you wrap your analysis of events in obvious partisan biases and dismiss the opinions of others because they are a "dumbass." It is ideologically inconsistent, because liberalism at its heart is about accepting more than one idea and more than one worldview.  When you refuse to engage because "if you don't already understand I just can't help you, dumbass" you have climbed off the moral high ground to wade deep into the mud.  And there are huge swaths of voters who see this, myself included, and just shake our heads and try to muddle through as best we can.  I improve my understanding of the world through interactions with people who disagree with me, and not all of those people are civil.  That's fine.  I can point out the hypocrisy of that incivility, that's fine too.

How much better off would we be as a world if, instead of going to war with Iraq after 9/11, we had instead moved our embassy to Jerusalem?  Appeasement does not work.  There's your border, you can do whatever the fuck you want to do inside it, and you leave us alone we'll leave you alone.

But yea I totally miscounted how many presidents had ignored it, for whatever reason I was thinking '96 as the start of Clinton1, my bad.  I'm going to blame old age.  No way was 1996 more than five years ago...

I guess I'll keep not understanding why it makes someone smug to point out what's in a law and why it was an perfectly legit option for prior presidents to defer the embassy move. For over 20 years. And why presidents before them didn't move it there. Got any info on why the Jerusalem Embassy Act was even written?

Sorry if I hurt your feelings but I did not mean to infer that you or anyone with your views was a dumb ass- just that I was not one. But it is hard keeping my multiple worldviews when people keep doing dumb ass, illogical, irrational things.

Last I checked, Bush was a Republican, and a lot of people didn't think things could get worse while he was president. And even his administration deferred from moving the embassy. Yikes.

What if we hadn't invaded Iraq, AND not moved the embassy? Fact- we would have been much better off not invading Iraq. What a waste of good people and treasure. What a mess we created.

As far as Israel, I have difficulty in feeling sorry for them. Not that I want them annihilated, but seems like they could be doing more to not shoot themselves in the foot. This embassy move wont help that. Much rather keep the status quo here then start another war.

Steering this back towards the topic, I think it was Forest Gump who once said, "dumb ass is as dumb ass does" (could be wrong.) I think the president continues to go out of his way to prove that.

clutchy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #202 on: December 08, 2017, 11:30:45 AM »
I am new to this thread, but I would love to hear from Trump *Primary* voters as well. I'm assuming everyone here so far was merely comparing him to Sec. Clinton. But I would really like to hear from people who were comparing him to guys like John Kasich.

Kasich is my governor (Ohio). 

I voted for Trump in the primary because I knew Kasich would win and I was a little caught up in the MAGA nonsense. 
Between the primary and the election I had dumped Trump as I realized what was happening and who he was.

I voted for Gary Johnson. 


I can't believe people are tolerating trump's nonsense.  I can't believe conservatives and republicans are actually supporting him.  He only sounds like a republican some of the time but honestly the party, supporting Roy Moore.  I just... I just don't understand.  It's madness. 


I have an unclear path going forward.  The democrats don't want me as a constituent so it's unclear how I'll vote but the republican party is a mess.

Kris

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #203 on: December 08, 2017, 12:12:35 PM »
I am new to this thread, but I would love to hear from Trump *Primary* voters as well. I'm assuming everyone here so far was merely comparing him to Sec. Clinton. But I would really like to hear from people who were comparing him to guys like John Kasich.

Kasich is my governor (Ohio). 

I voted for Trump in the primary because I knew Kasich would win and I was a little caught up in the MAGA nonsense. 
Between the primary and the election I had dumped Trump as I realized what was happening and who he was.

I voted for Gary Johnson. 


I can't believe people are tolerating trump's nonsense.  I can't believe conservatives and republicans are actually supporting him.  He only sounds like a republican some of the time but honestly the party, supporting Roy Moore.  I just... I just don't understand.  It's madness. 


I have an unclear path going forward.  The democrats don't want me as a constituent so it's unclear how I'll vote but the republican party is a mess.

I submit that the only way the Republican Party will change is to lose all the reasonable people to the Democrats. Make them lose their shirts. Repeatedly. It’s the only possible way to stop the utter madness on the right.

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #204 on: December 08, 2017, 12:15:55 PM »
The democrats don't want me as a constituent so it's unclear how I'll vote but the republican party is a mess.

The democrats want everyone as a constituent.  Just like the republicans, they are absolutely craven in their lust for your vote.  They will happily accept your support if you are anything short of David Duke.  And the republicans won't even disavow him.

As a general rule, I think democrats want more equality in American life.  They want people to be rewarded for their abilities and accomplishments, not their skin color or birth right.  As long as you are a hard worker, you have nothing to fear from their proposed egalitarian society.  If you are a straight white male who has been skating by only because women and people of color weren't allowed to compete in your arena, then yea you might be fearful of the free market for labor and talent actually becoming more free.

Even that situation doesn't mean democrats don't want your straight white male vote.  They just want you to actually deserve the success you find.  You know, individual responsibility and bootstraps and all that.  Let the cream rise to the top.  Be successful because you've earned it, not because we've systematically suppressed the opportunities for success for all of your competition.

clutchy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #205 on: December 08, 2017, 12:39:46 PM »


I submit that the only way the Republican Party will change is to lose all the reasonable people to the Democrats. Make them lose their shirts. Repeatedly. It’s the only possible way to stop the utter madness on the right.

I categorically reject that.  In fact I'd say it's gone the opposite direction. 

They've doubled down on voter suppression. 
They've doubled down on crazy. 
They've doubled down on vitriol and false governance.

clutchy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #206 on: December 08, 2017, 12:40:45 PM »
The democrats don't want me as a constituent so it's unclear how I'll vote but the republican party is a mess.

The democrats want everyone as a constituent.  Just like the republicans, they are absolutely craven in their lust for your vote.  They will happily accept your support if you are anything short of David Duke.  And the republicans won't even disavow him.

As a general rule, I think democrats want more equality in American life.  They want people to be rewarded for their abilities and accomplishments, not their skin color or birth right.  As long as you are a hard worker, you have nothing to fear from their proposed egalitarian society.  If you are a straight white male who has been skating by only because women and people of color weren't allowed to compete in your arena, then yea you might be fearful of the free market for labor and talent actually becoming more free.

Even that situation doesn't mean democrats don't want your straight white male vote.  They just want you to actually deserve the success you find.  You know, individual responsibility and bootstraps and all that.  Let the cream rise to the top.  Be successful because you've earned it, not because we've systematically suppressed the opportunities for success for all of your competition.
 

Call me crazy but I feel they've abandoned the center for the fringes.  I point to Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania as my evidence.

talltexan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #207 on: December 08, 2017, 12:54:41 PM »
I am new to this thread, but I would love to hear from Trump *Primary* voters as well. I'm assuming everyone here so far was merely comparing him to Sec. Clinton. But I would really like to hear from people who were comparing him to guys like John Kasich.

Kasich is my governor (Ohio). 

I voted for Trump in the primary because I knew Kasich would win and I was a little caught up in the MAGA nonsense. 
Between the primary and the election I had dumped Trump as I realized what was happening and who he was.

I voted for Gary Johnson. 


I can't believe people are tolerating trump's nonsense.  I can't believe conservatives and republicans are actually supporting him.  He only sounds like a republican some of the time but honestly the party, supporting Roy Moore.  I just... I just don't understand.  It's madness. 


I have an unclear path going forward.  The democrats don't want me as a constituent so it's unclear how I'll vote but the republican party is a mess.

I did spend 3 years in Ohio while Kasich was governor. I have never had anyone admit a Trump primary vote to me who wasn't also an Ohio resident under him.

clutchy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #208 on: December 08, 2017, 01:06:34 PM »
I am new to this thread, but I would love to hear from Trump *Primary* voters as well. I'm assuming everyone here so far was merely comparing him to Sec. Clinton. But I would really like to hear from people who were comparing him to guys like John Kasich.

Kasich is my governor (Ohio). 

I voted for Trump in the primary because I knew Kasich would win and I was a little caught up in the MAGA nonsense. 
Between the primary and the election I had dumped Trump as I realized what was happening and who he was.

I voted for Gary Johnson. 


I can't believe people are tolerating trump's nonsense.  I can't believe conservatives and republicans are actually supporting him.  He only sounds like a republican some of the time but honestly the party, supporting Roy Moore.  I just... I just don't understand.  It's madness. 


I have an unclear path going forward.  The democrats don't want me as a constituent so it's unclear how I'll vote but the republican party is a mess.

I did spend 3 years in Ohio while Kasich was governor. I have never had anyone admit a Trump primary vote to me who wasn't also an Ohio resident under him.
 

Just to be clear I think Kasich is an amazing governor and would have made a great president as well.

Gin1984

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #209 on: December 08, 2017, 01:21:00 PM »
The democrats don't want me as a constituent so it's unclear how I'll vote but the republican party is a mess.

The democrats want everyone as a constituent.  Just like the republicans, they are absolutely craven in their lust for your vote.  They will happily accept your support if you are anything short of David Duke.  And the republicans won't even disavow him.

As a general rule, I think democrats want more equality in American life.  They want people to be rewarded for their abilities and accomplishments, not their skin color or birth right.  As long as you are a hard worker, you have nothing to fear from their proposed egalitarian society.  If you are a straight white male who has been skating by only because women and people of color weren't allowed to compete in your arena, then yea you might be fearful of the free market for labor and talent actually becoming more free.

Even that situation doesn't mean democrats don't want your straight white male vote.  They just want you to actually deserve the success you find.  You know, individual responsibility and bootstraps and all that.  Let the cream rise to the top.  Be successful because you've earned it, not because we've systematically suppressed the opportunities for success for all of your competition.
 

Call me crazy but I feel they've abandoned the center for the fringes.  I point to Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania as my evidence.
Can you please elaborate?

Just Joe

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #210 on: December 08, 2017, 02:14:03 PM »
9) Whatever Trump's weaknesses, it doesn't look like he is going to drive us off a cliff or precipitate any disasters (or at least he isn't any more likely than the last few presidents to do so).

Except rile up the folks in the Middle East all over again by taking sides and doing flybys of North Korea perhaps sparking war. I think the war would be a quick one b/c North Korea can't even feed its own people but I would expect them to lob a few nuclear bombs before they were done.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #211 on: December 08, 2017, 04:05:28 PM »

I guess I'll keep not understanding why it makes someone smug to point out what's in a law and why it was an perfectly legit option for prior presidents to defer the embassy move. For over 20 years. And why presidents before them didn't move it there. Got any info on why the Jerusalem Embassy Act was even written?

The act was written at the behest of supporters of Israel in the U.S. who felt it was time, after decades, to recognize the accurate capital of an ally.  Your implication here is that it is OK for a president to ignore an act of congress if they feel the reason congress passed the law didn't pass some sort of (I don't really know because you haven't really said).  The truth is Clinton wasn't willing to risk the political fallout of vetoing the law, and he also knew he could use the provision regarding national security within the act to never actually move on it.  Because national security can always be used as an excuse to thwart the will of the people.  I don't argue that doing it was politically viable.  I argue that doing it was cowardly, weak, and ineffective.  The Cole still got bombed.  9/11 still happened.  Israel was still attacked.  Several times.  Pretty much constantly.  Since 1947.  Maybe you can argue that it made sense for Clinton to defer it as there was active movement on a deal heading into the 2000 Camp David Summit, but the Palestinians are not and have never been interested in a deal.  The wholesale slaughter-not removal or evacuation-but the wholesale slaughter of every jew in Israel is the only acceptable solution to those people.  And that's not me making it up, it's what they publish on state media for broad consumption.  Not recognizing the capital of Israel is appeasement, it is weakness, it has made zero difference in how we are viewed by the Islamic community and any argument to the contrary is partisan trashing.  Trump is a bastard pile of garbage who accidentally did something that was long overdue.  There's no possible way he understands why what he did was right, but the "international community" is wrong on this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement

You cannot reason with the unreasonable.  You just do the right thing and you deal with what happens.

Quote
Sorry if I hurt your feelings but I did not mean to infer that you or anyone with your views was a dumb ass- just that I was not one. But it is hard keeping my multiple worldviews when people keep doing dumb ass, illogical, irrational things.

My feelings aren't hurt.  I stand to gain a lot if even one liberal stops dismissing anyone with different talking points as irrational.  Maybe you'll read a book or talk to someone who was there and realize that the current talking points with respect to Israel have no basis in reality.  The set of assumptions you have to believe to think anything is accomplished by refusing to recognize the actual capital of a country you have diplomatic relations with...it staggers me.  It is in and of itself a denial of reality, an attempt to express an untruth in a profound way as though you could manifest a different history.

Quote
Last I checked, Bush was a Republican, and a lot of people didn't think things could get worse while he was president. And even his administration deferred from moving the embassy. Yikes.

If he was the incarnate of all that was wrong, then he was wrong on this too.  Cherry picking is a thing, that's fine.  I'm guessing the argument you're making here is that as incompetent as he was he still wasn't dumb enough to do this dumb thing, but again, you have yet to state any reason why recognizing Jerusalem is a bad idea.  While actively at war with two Muslim countries we don't want to antagonize muslims?  By establishing an embassy?  With a country we already have diplomatic relations with?  I'd love to understand it but I'm struggling to argue against "if you don't understand I can't explain it."  In the context of open hostility in the middle east it makes even less sense not to recognize Jerusalem.

The U.S. government, at the demand of the Islamic Community, burned a ton of bibles in the middle east that had been brought over for use of and by christian servicemen and women.  One asshole in Florida burned a Koran and the Islamic Community attacked and brutally murdered U.N. aid workers, not even soldiers but aid workers.  In this situation, you blame the asshole in Florida, but any rational person blames the religious extremists who actually did the murder.

They are responsible for what they do, and it makes no damn sense for us to do the wrong thing in some vain attempt to keep crazy people from doing crazy things.

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What if we hadn't invaded Iraq, AND not moved the embassy? Fact- we would have been much better off not invading Iraq. What a waste of good people and treasure. What a mess we created.
Exactly.  But you didn't answer my question.  I make the assumption that the U.S. did have to respond, it would have been sort of nice if we'd taken a moral high-road action such as this.  Our failure to recognize Jerusalem was largely an open hand extended to the Islamic world, and it clearly doesn't care.

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As far as Israel, I have difficulty in feeling sorry for them. Not that I want them annihilated, but seems like they could be doing more to not shoot themselves in the foot. This embassy move wont help that. Much rather keep the status quo here then start another war.

That's the crazy part of your argument.  Nothing Israel has done started any of those conflicts.  Aside from having the audacity to live there at all.  When your existence is offensive you are not to blame for giving offense.  The status quo is: the Palestinians actively and constantly attack the Israelis and always will.  Not the Israeli military.  Not governmental establishments.  They bomb bakeries and private residences.  They blow up busses filled with any random group of people who happen to be in Israel at the moment.  Their grievance is that they started a war they subsequently lost because it turns out Jews aren't actually racially inferior and please mommy won't someone reset the game.  Israel exists in a constant, ongoing state of open conflict with state-funded religious extremists.  And their largest vulnerability is that they do reach out with compassion and they do tolerate people who hate them to coexist with them.  Nothing else like it has ever been seen in history.  Israel absolutely has the capability to wipe out the Palestinians and survive the resulting backlash from the international community, but they won't do it.  Even while being attacked.  And if any ethnic group in the U.S. began behaving like the Palestinians, if tomorrow everyone from Oklahoma just started killing everyone else, we wouldn't stop with expelling them from the rest of the states, we'd burn Oklahoma to the fucking ground.  It'd be two hundred years before anyone wanted to be known as an Oklahoman, and then we'd all get to feel guilty about what we did.

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Steering this back towards the topic, I think it was Forest Gump who once said, "dumb ass is as dumb ass does" (could be wrong.) I think the president continues to go out of his way to prove that.

Well no argument from me, but even a stupid clock is right twice a day...or something...that's not quite right.

accolay

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #212 on: December 08, 2017, 06:38:17 PM »
Your implication here is that it is OK for a president to ignore an act of congress if they feel the reason congress passed the law didn't pass some sort of (I don't really know because you haven't really said).
My implication wasn't that they are "ignoring" a law, but they're actually participating in the law as it was written due to security concerns. How more explicit do you want it? Like Prego- its in there. Maybe you have more insight into why they added that part of the law. But maybe there's some rational 50 years of conflict explanation for it. And just as we were squashing Al Qaeda, this nice little recruitment tool is invented. I already hate being right on that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement
You cannot reason with the unreasonable.  You just do the right thing and you deal with what happens.
Does this count as Godwin's Law?

My feelings aren't hurt.  I stand to gain a lot if even one liberal stops dismissing anyone with different talking points as irrational.
"But it matters for that one starfish..." But that's just it. Talking points aren't a rational discussion meant to inform about a topic or have a different point of view. They come from both sides and half the time they're political nonsense. They're just small quips with no information to get people who have no deeper interest in a topic to agree. Platitudes that don't really have any room for nuance or information. It's a snip to get people angry and on your side. Don't be so surprised if you're dismissed after throwing a talking point at someone who doesn't agree with you and might know a little about your topic.

If he was the incarnate of all that was wrong, then he was wrong on this too. .... In this situation, you blame the asshole in Florida, but any rational person blames the religious extremists who actually did the murder.
Bush wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but he did have Cheney and Rove managing things. I blame the asshole in Florida and the extremists.

That's the crazy part of your argument.  Nothing Israel has done started any of those conflicts.  Aside from having the audacity to live there at all.  When your existence is offensive you are not to blame for giving offense.  The status quo is: the Palestinians actively and constantly attack the Israelis and always will.  Not the Israeli military.
Honestly, if we want to blame anybody, it should be the British, no? To be a fly on the wall when they came up with that idea... If Israel has done nothing to start it, they sure haven't done anything to stop it. Israel doesn't get away squeaky clean here though. Really in recent history we're talking about settlements. Have you seen a map?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/West_Bank_%26_Gaza_Map_2007_%28Settlements%29.png

If they really want it over, do the two state solution. Let Palestine be it's own thing. Israel should get their settlements out of there. Make Jerusalem an international city. If fighting continues after that, then I will STFU.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #213 on: December 08, 2017, 07:04:11 PM »
Well if you followed the link, that is explained:

The basis for the secret threat to Netanyahu will have to be that, as the most nakedly pro-Israel president ever, Trump has the clout to blame Netanyahu if he is truly responsible for the breakdown of the deal. Trump can say what no other president could: that the world, including pro-Israel American Jews, will believe him if he says Netanyahu is the problem and that he should no longer be prime minister. Trump could even credibly threaten that U.S. support for Israel would be substantially reduced in the future if Netanyahu blinks.
Kindly fix your link for the story in question.
I posted two separate Bloomberg articles. The first one points to the correct page with the quote above. For convenience:

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-06/israelis-will-pay-for-trump-s-jerusalem-gambit
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 07:36:37 PM by lost_in_the_endless_aisle »

clutchy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #214 on: December 08, 2017, 07:29:40 PM »
The democrats don't want me as a constituent so it's unclear how I'll vote but the republican party is a mess.

The democrats want everyone as a constituent.  Just like the republicans, they are absolutely craven in their lust for your vote.  They will happily accept your support if you are anything short of David Duke.  And the republicans won't even disavow him.

As a general rule, I think democrats want more equality in American life.  They want people to be rewarded for their abilities and accomplishments, not their skin color or birth right.  As long as you are a hard worker, you have nothing to fear from their proposed egalitarian society.  If you are a straight white male who has been skating by only because women and people of color weren't allowed to compete in your arena, then yea you might be fearful of the free market for labor and talent actually becoming more free.

Even that situation doesn't mean democrats don't want your straight white male vote.  They just want you to actually deserve the success you find.  You know, individual responsibility and bootstraps and all that.  Let the cream rise to the top.  Be successful because you've earned it, not because we've systematically suppressed the opportunities for success for all of your competition.
 

Call me crazy but I feel they've abandoned the center for the fringes.  I point to Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania as my evidence.
Can you please elaborate?
 

Sure, a good portion of the country felt like they had been abandoned for coastal liberals, minorities and the LGBT gender spectrum kids. 
Trump comes along and starts spouting stuff they want to hear while tossing in some "other" language to blame those groups and they get on board. 

Pennsylvania hasn't voted for a Republican since 1988.  That says something to me. 

Perhaps I feel it more acutely because the democratic platform offers me nothing.  In the attempt to widen the tent they lost any type of message that resonates with me.  Maybe net neutrality...

I prefer economic unity not identity politics.

Lagom

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #215 on: December 08, 2017, 10:36:57 PM »
Provides links of literally 50+ examples of how women are worse off under Trump.

"Well, look man, these policies aren't TARGETING WOMEN SPECIFICALLY."

Like, how am I supposed to have an honest debate here? Of course Trump isn't going to sign into law a bill that says women can only earn $20/hour. It's not going to be explicit. But there's at least 100 examples (probably more for those with more time to Google) of women being worse off, losing rights, etc.  Just because none are an explicit target doesn't mean the whole picture isn't worth viewing.

Honestly, how am I supposed to have this discussion?  Every point gets explained away because it's not explicit.

Obligatory disclaimer: I dislike both parties. I did not vote the presidential ticket at all because I also disliked the third party options. If I was in a swing state, I would have voted HRC, despite not supporting many parts of the DNC platform, because I don't think a corrupt (as proven in multiple courts of law), middling to bad businessman and sexual predator reality TV star with no relevant experience whatsoever is someone who makes sense to vote in as POTUS. Sadly, I was not surprised when many millions of Americans disagreed.

Anyway, I said in a post some time back that a Trump presidency would be a true stress test of the bounds of cognitive dissonance. This thread alone seems to prove they are just as vast as I surmised. Sol has it right. Trump can do no wrong. People who still support him now cannot allow themselves to feel any differently (or if they admit wrongdoing it has to be explained away by one tu quoque fallacy after another).  It's sad that the America I love has been reduced to this, but I still believe that the arc of the moral universe bends towards justice. May I live long enough to see us finally get there...

PS - smug liberal elitism is absolutely a thing. I live in Silicon Valley, the capital of such behavior. But people on this board complaining about it shouldn't use that as an excuse for their voting patterns if they also want to claim objectivity in their decision-making.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 10:40:42 PM by Lagom »

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #216 on: December 08, 2017, 10:56:09 PM »
Provides links of literally 50+ examples of how women are worse off under Trump.

"Well, look man, these policies aren't TARGETING WOMEN SPECIFICALLY."

Like, how am I supposed to have an honest debate here? Of course Trump isn't going to sign into law a bill that says women can only earn $20/hour. It's not going to be explicit. But there's at least 100 examples (probably more for those with more time to Google) of women being worse off, losing rights, etc.  Just because none are an explicit target doesn't mean the whole picture isn't worth viewing.

Honestly, how am I supposed to have this discussion?  Every point gets explained away because it's not explicit.

Obligatory disclaimer: I dislike both parties. I did not vote the presidential ticket at all because I also disliked the third party options. If I was in a swing state, I would have voted HRC, despite not supporting many parts of the DNC platform, because I don't think a corrupt (as proven in multiple courts of law), middling to bad businessman and sexual predator reality TV star with no relevant experience whatsoever is someone who makes sense to vote in as POTUS. Sadly, I was not surprised when many millions of Americans disagreed.

Anyway, I said in a post some time back that a Trump presidency would be a true stress test of the bounds of cognitive dissonance. This thread alone seems to prove they are just as vast as I surmised. Sol has it right. Trump can do no wrong. People who still support him now cannot allow themselves to feel any differently (or if they admit wrongdoing it has to be explained away by one tu quoque fallacy after another).  It's sad that the America I love has been reduced to this, but I still believe that the arc of the moral universe bends towards justice. May I live long enough to see us finally get there...

PS - smug liberal elitism is absolutely a thing. I live in Silicon Valley, the capital of such behavior. But people on this board complaining about it shouldn't use that as an excuse for their voting patterns if they also want to claim objectivity in their decision-making.
The obvious corollary is people opposed to Trump generally can't perceive any of his actions as being correct either (or more accurately, can't compartmentalize Trump the buffoon & Trump's decisions so that they can be evaluated separately). The problem with Trump for his opponents in general and the US left in particular is his sloppy, factually deviant rhetoric is too easy to contradict, which leads to intellectual laziness in his progressive opponents and feeds into the smugness machine of late night TV, HuffPo, etc. The test of your beliefs shouldn't be the town fool-in-chief who brings the worst arguments, but rather, should be measured versus the best opposing arguments.

MasterStache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #217 on: December 09, 2017, 05:43:36 AM »
I am new to this thread, but I would love to hear from Trump *Primary* voters as well. I'm assuming everyone here so far was merely comparing him to Sec. Clinton. But I would really like to hear from people who were comparing him to guys like John Kasich.

Kasich is my governor (Ohio). 

I voted for Trump in the primary because I knew Kasich would win and I was a little caught up in the MAGA nonsense. 
Between the primary and the election I had dumped Trump as I realized what was happening and who he was.

I voted for Gary Johnson. 


I can't believe people are tolerating trump's nonsense.  I can't believe conservatives and republicans are actually supporting him.  He only sounds like a republican some of the time but honestly the party, supporting Roy Moore.  I just... I just don't understand.  It's madness. 


I have an unclear path going forward.  The democrats don't want me as a constituent so it's unclear how I'll vote but the republican party is a mess.

+1 for realizing your mistake before you made it. Kasich for me, was probably the best Republican candidate. But I am not a huge fan of him ever since he practically dismantled the renewable energy industry in Ohio. I saw local companies taking business elsewhere and larger corporations, wanting to run on renewable energy, not even give Ohio a second thought when it came time to open another office/warehouse. Places like Middletown, Dayton and some other struggling communities could use the jobs.

There is an alternative to Republican and Democrat. I registered as a Republican and voted Republican for a while. Likely never again seeing how the party has transformed. Republicans supporting Trump and putting him in office was icing on the cake.  Now I am an independent and vote who I feel is the best candidate. Could be Republican, could be democrat or it could be neither.  No need to pick a side and vote long party lines all the time.

wenchsenior

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #218 on: December 09, 2017, 09:35:52 AM »
The democrats don't want me as a constituent so it's unclear how I'll vote but the republican party is a mess.

The democrats want everyone as a constituent.  Just like the republicans, they are absolutely craven in their lust for your vote.  They will happily accept your support if you are anything short of David Duke.  And the republicans won't even disavow him.

As a general rule, I think democrats want more equality in American life.  They want people to be rewarded for their abilities and accomplishments, not their skin color or birth right.  As long as you are a hard worker, you have nothing to fear from their proposed egalitarian society.  If you are a straight white male who has been skating by only because women and people of color weren't allowed to compete in your arena, then yea you might be fearful of the free market for labor and talent actually becoming more free.

Even that situation doesn't mean democrats don't want your straight white male vote.  They just want you to actually deserve the success you find.  You know, individual responsibility and bootstraps and all that.  Let the cream rise to the top.  Be successful because you've earned it, not because we've systematically suppressed the opportunities for success for all of your competition.
 

Call me crazy but I feel they've abandoned the center for the fringes.  I point to Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania as my evidence.
Can you please elaborate?
 

Sure, a good portion of the country felt like they had been abandoned for coastal liberals, minorities and the LGBT gender spectrum kids. 
Trump comes along and starts spouting stuff they want to hear while tossing in some "other" language to blame those groups and they get on board. 

Pennsylvania hasn't voted for a Republican since 1988.  That says something to me. 

Perhaps I feel it more acutely because the democratic platform offers me nothing.  In the attempt to widen the tent they lost any type of message that resonates with me.  Maybe net neutrality...

I prefer economic unity not identity politics.

I'm confused: What exactly does it say to you?  I don't understand how the bolded statement bolsters your argument. Pennsylvania is predominately white, working and middle class, and not coastal liberal elite.  Yet it has mostly swung blue in  the past few decades.  Perhaps the state will now swing red for the next few decades, at which point you could potentially argue that they are voting that way after a few decades of feeling abandoned by Dem government.  But a single, populist election choice between two unpopular candidates doesn't necessarily bolster that argument (assuming that is what you mean).

I also don't understand your "the Dems don't want my vote" statements. If you personally hold actual conservative or libertarian economic views, then of course the Dems aren't going to work for your vote. That's a feature, not a bug in the Dem party.  Why is that a problem? You don't agree with their policies.  If you have an inflexible anti-abortion stance, then no, the Dems and Libs aren't going to work hard for your vote.  The GOP will.   

But if you don't object to their platform, and are withholding your vote out of some sense of aggrieved 'tribal' abandonment, I just don't grasp how that is in your best interest. Nor is it the same as the Democratic party "not wanting your vote". What a strange idea.

I would actually agree with you and some other posters that the Dems rely far too heavily on identity politics as an electoral strategy. It's IMO stupid to excessively play identity politics during election season for the very reason that humans are tribal and are triggered to be MORE tribal by highlighting differences among them, which is counterproductive when trying build a bigger tent.  However, I'm a mature, well informed voter who doesn't need to be constantly name checked by politicians in order to figure out what is in my best interest. The fact that the Dems aren't constantly telling me what a special snowflake I am doesn't put me off at all.  I vote Dem (usually) because (usually) their goals and general governing policies match mine most closely.  I don't give a shit whether they name-check straight, white, middle-class, childfree women from small-business-owning Mid-Western families in all their stupid election speeches.

My husband is from a poor-childhood, farm-country raised, non-union-family background and pulled himself up to the upper middle class by his bootstraps.   He's straight, white, a military/border patrol veteran, etc, which I guess is the demographic you are arguing the Dems don't want the vote of.  But he could not fathom EVER withholding his vote from the party with the governing platform with which he most agrees (Dems) just because they aren't constantly verbally courting his vote. 

Both of us having plenty of complaints about the Dems policies and governing strategy, but that is a different issue having little to nothing to do with their electoral use of identity politics. 



Jrr85

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #219 on: December 09, 2017, 09:45:03 AM »
Provides links of literally 50+ examples of how women are worse off under Trump.

"Well, look man, these policies aren't TARGETING WOMEN SPECIFICALLY."

Like, how am I supposed to have an honest debate here? Of course Trump isn't going to sign into law a bill that says women can only earn $20/hour. It's not going to be explicit. But there's at least 100 examples (probably more for those with more time to Google) of women being worse off, losing rights, etc.  Just because none are an explicit target doesn't mean the whole picture isn't worth viewing.

Honestly, how am I supposed to have this discussion?  Every point gets explained away because it's not explicit.

Obligatory disclaimer: I dislike both parties. I did not vote the presidential ticket at all because I also disliked the third party options. If I was in a swing state, I would have voted HRC, despite not supporting many parts of the DNC platform, because I don't think a corrupt (as proven in multiple courts of law), middling to bad businessman and sexual predator reality TV star with no relevant experience whatsoever is someone who makes sense to vote in as POTUS. Sadly, I was not surprised when many millions of Americans disagreed.

Anyway, I said in a post some time back that a Trump presidency would be a true stress test of the bounds of cognitive dissonance. This thread alone seems to prove they are just as vast as I surmised. Sol has it right. Trump can do no wrong. People who still support him now cannot allow themselves to feel any differently (or if they admit wrongdoing it has to be explained away by one tu quoque fallacy after another).  It's sad that the America I love has been reduced to this, but I still believe that the arc of the moral universe bends towards justice. May I live long enough to see us finally get there...

PS - smug liberal elitism is absolutely a thing. I live in Silicon Valley, the capital of such behavior. But people on this board complaining about it shouldn't use that as an excuse for their voting patterns if they also want to claim objectivity in their decision-making.

Im not sure you understand tu quoque fallacy. It's not a fallacy to compare and contrast individuals' flaws when you are picking between two(or more) terrible people.  Also, the tu quoque fallacy is the only argument the vast majority of anti trump people use. There's plenty to criticize for trump's actual policies and actions in office, but it's too emotionally satisfying to most  anti trumpers to just harp on the fact that he is an orange headed conartist who is an idiot savant when it comes to marketing.  So they just keep ranting like irate monkeys, ignoring the fact that the alternative to trump was Hillary freaking Clinton, so arguments from people who voted for Hillary Clinton about how terrible trump is just aren't going to be persuasive.

boogabooga

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #220 on: December 09, 2017, 10:26:26 AM »
As someone who voted for Trump in the recent election, I thought this post had great potential. I read a few sincere responses by cliffhanger & FINate on the 1st page, and then the messages just went downhill quickly. Its honestly disappointing that people just can't keep it together, even on a forum on the internet which is sad. If the topic of politics ever comes up in person, chances are that the people are liberal given that I live in Chicago. I approach these conversations with the goal of understanding their perspective, learning about a new topic, and finding commonalities. Most of the time, our viewpoints are actually more similar than different. The only times these conversations become annoying is if there is a know-it-all from either side of the aisle present who feels the need to talk over everyone to 'educate' them, regurgitate talking points and try change people's opinions. Anyway, to answer a few of the OPs questions:

- I didn't vote "republican." I don't consider myself a member of either party. I just voted for a candidate who had some ideas I agreed with and others that I don't.

- I work as a CPA and am okay with the tax plan although I think it could be simplified further.

- Trump/Russia - In my viewpoint, the USA has influenced more elections abroad than any other country. So I'm not exactly surprised that another country tried to influence ours. Any news that have come from this have not changed my viewpoints one way or another.

- lack of decorum - This is a difficult one to answer since I don't know Trump in person. I do know that he knows how to get under the skin of his opponents and label them with words or phrases that stick, and uses unconventional techniques in doing so.

- women's rights - I think women are going to come out more powerful during Trump's term. I'm glad that Hollywood is finally cleaning house of some of the men who took advantage of their power and I hope they continue to do so.

BlueMR2

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #221 on: December 09, 2017, 11:20:05 AM »
I did spend 3 years in Ohio while Kasich was governor. I have never had anyone admit a Trump primary vote to me who wasn't also an Ohio resident under him.

I don't have a list of my Republican friends primary votes...  However, there's a couple common themes:
- They still love Trump despite everything
- The only ones that admitted any kind of positive feeling towards Kasich were not ones from Ohio.

To add my own opinion, while Kasich is doing a reasonable job in office, I see him as the worst case scenario career politician.  I see no evidence that he cares at all about doing the right thing.  Everything he does appears to be carefully staged to gain power no matter who it hurts.  So far the results have been acceptable, but I don't know that it would continue.  I can trust Trump to be Trump.  I can't trust Kasich at all, I'm not sure there's a real person in there.

Note, I did not vote for either at any time...

radram

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #222 on: December 09, 2017, 04:56:40 PM »
As someone who voted for Trump in the recent election, I thought this post had great potential.

The responses answering the OP's original question are not surprising at all to me, as I mentioned upthread.

What IS surprising is the NUMBER of responses, given that so far the actual number of Trump voters that said they do regret doing so is a resounding ZERO. Why wasn't this post met with zero reply's, except for maybe the few that did admit some of the things on the list they were not all that happy about, but it would not change their vote?

Given there are so few Trump voters that want to change their mind, I found boogabooga's reply very helpful. Voted Trump. Gave no reasons to regret his decision so far and listed several reasons his/her vote was the right one.





sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #223 on: December 09, 2017, 05:25:06 PM »
What IS surprising is the NUMBER of responses, given that so far the actual number of Trump voters that said they do regret doing so is a resounding ZERO.

I don't find it surprising it all.

Trump effectively alienated all but the most die-hard republicans.  Moderates fled.  There is approximately 30% of the country that lives and breathes Fox News and Breitbart, and they will continue to vote for Trump long after he's ineligible to run for office anymore.

As we've previously discussed, Trump failed to grow the tent in the 2016 election at all.  He got the same number of votes that Romney and McCain both got, yet he won when they lost because the democratic voter turnout was so heavily suppressed (apparently by Russian conspiracy theories spread on social media?).  Trump's great victory was not in uniting the electorate, it was in holding on to evangelicals (and also white supremacists, apparently) while effectively casting aspersions about his opponent.  Basically, Hillary lost that election more than Trump won it.

And in that context, the die-hard minority that still voted for him should probably be expected to respond with "America, Fuck Yea" when asked if they regret their vote.  They will never regret their vote!  Some of them are wishing he would be even more bigoted and destructive to American ideals than he has been so far. 

libertarian4321

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #224 on: December 10, 2017, 07:16:11 AM »
The last time I voted Republican for President was in 1992, and yes, I regretted it.

I should have voted Libertarian.  Or maybe for Ross Perot.

I've voted Libertarian every time since, except for 2008, when I cast a "screw you, John McCain" spite vote for Obama.  Yeah, I know, that wasn't a great move, but the Libertarian candidate that year was a warmonger like McCain (and, as it turns out, Obama), so I didn't want to vote for him.

I couldn't vote for an awful candidate like Trump.  Or Hillary. 

It still seems hard to believe that both major parties managed to pick absolutely horrific candidates in the same year.  The two worst major party candidates in the past 100+ years, and they both run in the same year?

former player

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #225 on: December 10, 2017, 11:57:24 AM »

The act was written at the behest of supporters of Israel in the U.S. who felt it was time, after decades, to recognize the accurate capital of an ally. 
I am beginning to think that it is time, after decades of Israel exercising the prerogatives of statehood over the West Bank and Gaza - enforcing (military) law, controlling the borders for people and goods, and determining land ownership rights - to recognise the accuracy of the single State solution.  One without an apartheid regime, obviously.

wenchsenior

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #226 on: December 10, 2017, 12:04:09 PM »
As someone who voted for Trump in the recent election, I thought this post had great potential.

The responses answering the OP's original question are not surprising at all to me, as I mentioned upthread.

What IS surprising is the NUMBER of responses, given that so far the actual number of Trump voters that said they do regret doing so is a resounding ZERO. Why wasn't this post met with zero reply's, except for maybe the few that did admit some of the things on the list they were not all that happy about, but it would not change their vote?

Given there are so few Trump voters that want to change their mind, I found boogabooga's reply very helpful. Voted Trump. Gave no reasons to regret his decision so far and listed several reasons his/her vote was the right one.

Well, I did mention my father.  He would fit the OP's criteria.  Trump supporter and voter.  Now wants to see Trump impeached.

radram

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #227 on: December 10, 2017, 05:41:05 PM »
Well, I did mention my father.  He would fit the OP's criteria.  Trump supporter and voter.  Now wants to see Trump impeached.
Point well taken. There have been a couple people who knew somebody, but still not one poster on this forum who want their vote back.

partgypsy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #228 on: December 10, 2017, 06:35:33 PM »
Wading into the disclaimer it has not been proven Trump is racist/bigoted/discrimminatory, apparently the black reporter and the gay reporter from the WH press corps were not invited to the White House Christmas party, apparently singled out.  https://www.snopes.com/2017/12/10/black-lgbt-reporters-wh-christmas-party/

And while it is unproven that minority children were not invited to the White House Easter egg roll, it is true that the White House said that "tickets were given to all the schools in the area" but no tickets were given to the three districts closest to the White house (D.C., Arlington and Alexandria). These are racially diverse districts previously invited to WH Easter egg hunts.
https://www.snopes.com/white-easter-egg-roll/

Curious. Any Trump supporters here who are not white and male?

Also curious. Are any Trump supporter concerned with the fact that Trump lies all the time? And I'm not talking about political shading type lies. Doesn't that make him at the very least, untrustworthy? Unfit? Or that his Twitter feed is dominated by bots, a large number of those being Russian bots?

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/donald-trump-twitter-army-228923

I guess I have never gotten a coherent answer why Trump supporters are unconcerned, really, not even that curious why Russia undermined Hillary and pushed Trump, of all possible candidates. Russia is a foreign country who is NOT an ally. The reason why the US has previously tried to influence elections, is to further our own agenda over that other countries interest, and/or destabilize, make that country weaker. I would think that would concern any Trump voter, that Russia believes that Trump being president furthers their agenda over ours and makes our country weaker.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 09:18:34 AM by partgypsy »

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #229 on: December 10, 2017, 09:25:56 PM »

If they really want it over, do the two state solution. Let Palestine be it's own thing. Israel should get their settlements out of there. Make Jerusalem an international city. If fighting continues after that, then I will STFU.

Every.  Single.  Time.  This has been on the table and not only did the Palestinians reject it they initiated open conflict against the Israelis.  It's literally how the conflict started.  Israel is open to the idea of the above and if you look at how they actually govern this is how it works in all but name. 


"But it matters for that one starfish..." But that's just it. Talking points aren't a rational discussion meant to inform about a topic or have a different point of view. They come from both sides and half the time they're political nonsense. They're just small quips with no information to get people who have no deeper interest in a topic to agree. Platitudes that don't really have any room for nuance or information. It's a snip to get people angry and on your side. Don't be so surprised if you're dismissed after throwing a talking point at someone who doesn't agree with you and might know a little about your topic.


*smacks head against wall* Yes, coming to the table to declare Trump's decision to move the embassy as the end of rational foreign policy and the breakdown of America as a world leader was definitely not a talking point.  There is nothing I can argue to a liberal that disagrees with their worldview that doesn't get me dismissed.  That was my whole point, thank you for proving it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement
You cannot reason with the unreasonable.  You just do the right thing and you deal with what happens.
Does this count as Godwin's Law?

Technical violation perhaps.  In the context of making concessions to foreign powers in the interest of peace, particularly foreign powers intent on wiping out the Jews, I don't think the sentiment of the Godwin's Law observation is as relevant here as you might like.  What I would like, for my own ability to come up with a cogent argument for appeasement, is an example of where it worked.  Like for instance, if the U.S. refusing to recognize Israel's capital had led to a sustained peace for Israel, the U.S., or the region in general.  Oh wait.  There isn't one.  The experiment has been tried a dozen times now all over the world and it has always led to open conflict.

It makes sense to lowkey not acknowledge Taiwan as an independent state, no need to antagonize the Chinese, and not antagonizing the Chinese has a benefit.  The residents of the region are still trying to convince each other that unification with China is good or that, alternatively, independence is good.  Peacefully.  When the unification talks break down, neighbors don't go home and plot to exterminate each other.  They don't sponsor state terrorism against us or our allies.  It makes sense not to antagonize the North Koreans, they're chillin' brutalizing their own people in a horrific regime of death, agony, and hopelessness, but I understand the willingness to say "not my monkey, not my circus."

In the context of U.S. state department official diplomatic actions, there is no reason not to recognize Jerusalem, failing to recognize it bought us nothing.  It made no difference.  It was a hollow gesture, without meaning.  Our leadership on the issue is likely why lots of other nations did the same, it is not that we did it made us leaders, us being leaders is why everyone else did it.

Recruiting tool for Al Qaeda?  Really?  We destroyed two nations, leading to apocalyptic conditions that killed millions, devastation so bad that the word decimate definitionally is inadequate, and sat by and watched as the whole region descended into chaos.  It's been open recruitment for awhile.  How about that's a bullshit reason not to do the right thing.

You've had your opportunity to explain why not recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is a terrible idea, and that's all you've come up with.  People who already hate us will still hate us, Palestinians who refuse to negotiate (we don't even know what they want because they won't propose anything, choosing instead to reject any proposal as offensive, leave the table, and start killing Israelis in open, armed, conflict), and worries over the safety of our personnel, which is the only one I'd accept, if we didn't already have a diplomatic mission in Jerusalem that'll be a shit-sight more safe with a full embassy contingent on hand for emergencies.  Oh, and also, you can't explain it because I clearly should just know, because it's that obvious.

For your own edification, go look at what places in the world the state department has lost the most people, where our embassies have been taken out by hostile forces.  Since 1979 there have been 24 attacks that I know of conducted by/carried out by the type of person likely to be offended by us moving our embassy to Jerusalem.  22 of those since Congress passed the act to move the embassy, the first since that passage (which probably should have stirred up some trouble all on its own if it was going to, yes?) the first was 1998.  The only place in that part of the world where our personnel have been safe is Israel, because it's the only place in that part of the world where the authorities respect the value of a non-muslim life.

The national security argument is a bullshit one.  It was fine in 1995, but it clearly hasn't made a damn bit of difference, except to be a slap in the face to the only ally over there who isn't secretly hoping we fail as a nation/outright calling for our extermination in a rain of fire and death.

And what drives me crazy, what drives me absolutely batshit crazy, is that ignorant liberals with no concept of the context and depth and history of the struggle in the middle east, who think the beauty pageant answer of "peace in the middle east" is just that, who see the nation of Israel as powerful and the Palestinians as weak and therefore Israel must have done something wrong, who have probably hundreds of things they could focus on with what Trump is doing wrong, instead choose to say that not only is he out of his depth on foreign policy, but that this somehow marks the end of...

Of course he's an idiot.  Of course he did this, and I shit you not I wouldn't be surprised at all if he did this: because six months ago they asked him to sign the waiver, he recognized it coming across his desk again, and said, "what do I have to do to not sign this waiver every 6 months, I came here to golf not sign shit twice a year", and so they're moving the fucking embassy.

That's what the criticism should be about.  He clearly has no fucking clue what he's doing.  Doesn't make moving the embassy a bad idea though.  I say we recognize Israel as the leader of the Arab League the next time jihadi's blow shit up.  Just keep upgrading our offensive rhetoric.  You kill a bunch of comics?  We put an image of your prophet giving Jesus a handy on our currency.  You decapitate an american journalist, we air drop translations of the quran that your people can actually read all over the countryside.  You go on TV and call for the extermination of the West, we announce we found your prophet's body and he had an inter-cranial infection of parasites, entire religion is actually a hallucination, also, was a hermaphrodite, technically female in terms of chromosomes.  You'll note I say your prophet, I actually didn't use the name, because I didn't want some fucked-up crazy person to murder people because I posted something offensive on the internet.

Passive Aggressive is a foreign policy strategy I can get behind.  It's cheap and effective.

PKFFW

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #230 on: December 11, 2017, 03:50:40 AM »
It's literally how the conflict started.
Actually the conflict started with the West collectively decided to salve its conscience after WW2 by taking a bit of land in the middle east that had been occupied for centuries by another society and give it to the Jewish people.

You can argue till the cows come home that it was either the right or wrong thing to do and whether or not anything can be done about that monumentally stupid and self serving conquest now but there wasn't a conflict between the Palestinians and Jews before that.

accolay

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #231 on: December 11, 2017, 04:11:55 AM »
If they really want it over, do the two state solution. Let Palestine be it's own thing. Israel should get their settlements out of there. Make Jerusalem an international city. If fighting continues after that, then I will STFU.
Every.  Single.  Time.  This has been on the table and not only did the Palestinians reject it they initiated open conflict against the Israelis.  It's literally how the conflict started.  Israel is open to the idea of the above and if you look at how they actually govern this is how it works in all but name.

Really?  It's tit for tat. Chicken or egg. Don't give me some bullshit that Israel's all skittles and beer while the Arabs did everything. You can't just plant some people in a place that's already occupied and expect everyone to like it. What could go wrong?

And what drives me crazy, what drives me absolutely batshit crazy, is that ignorant liberals with no concept of the context and depth and history of the struggle in the middle east, who think the beauty pageant answer of "peace in the middle east" is just that, who see the nation of Israel as powerful and the Palestinians as weak and therefore Israel must have done something wrong, who have probably hundreds of things they could focus on with what Trump is doing wrong, instead choose to say that not only is he out of his depth on foreign policy, but that this somehow marks the end of...

Barf. Nobody said that. I think that if the US stopped supporting Israel and say we moved our embassy out of there altogether, Israel wouldn't exist. But that's just this one ignorant liberal's opinion.

That's what the criticism should be about.  He clearly has no fucking clue what he's doing.
Passive Aggressive is a foreign policy strategy I can get behind.  It's cheap and effective.

I thought that was what all of theseliberals were talking about for the last two years. So you say he's an idiot, complete fucking moron even, but somehow his foreign policy is something you can get behind. You sir, are an enigma.

I stand by my prediction about this embassy move. I read somewhere that it will take two years to either plan out or build. We'll see what happens with Mueller so maybe by then somebody with some common sense will be in charge.

accolay

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #232 on: December 11, 2017, 04:21:14 AM »
It's literally how the conflict started.
Actually the conflict started with the West collectively decided to salve its conscience after WW2 by taking a bit of land in the middle east that had been occupied for centuries by another society and give it to the Jewish people.

You can argue till the cows come home that it was either the right or wrong thing to do and whether or not anything can be done about that monumentally stupid and self serving conquest now but there wasn't a conflict between the Palestinians and Jews before that.

Well... actually there was some conflict starting in like the 1880s apparently. Those were the easy days.

Big Boots Buddha

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #233 on: December 11, 2017, 05:57:18 AM »
This is hilarious. If Hillary was our president she would be making the rounds of the Middle East and whoever else would "celebrate" or whatever else she calls giving her money. After the Clinton Foundation had several tens of billions of dollars and she had completely sold out the USA, we would all be happy that a woman finally was president? Give me a break.

I wish I could make the same disparaging remarks about our last president, maybe call him horrible names and refer to his skin color, but then I would be racist. Great how that works for the left.

Get ready for 3 more years of winning soy-cucks. And have fun in California with your taxes!!!


[MOD NOTE:  I have no idea what a "soy-cuck" is, but we're really done with Pick-up Artist lingo around here.]
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 07:08:23 AM by FrugalToque »

MasterStache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #234 on: December 11, 2017, 06:05:52 AM »
This is hilarious. If Hillary was our president she would be making the rounds of the Middle East and whoever else would "celebrate" or whatever else she calls giving her money. After the Clinton Foundation had several tens of billions of dollars and she had completely sold out the USA, we would all be happy that a woman finally was president? Give me a break.

I wish I could make the same disparaging remarks about our last president, maybe call him horrible names and refer to his skin color, but then I would be racist. Great how that works for the left.

Get ready for 3 more years of winning soy-cucks. And have fun in California with your taxes!!!

So basically your answer is "what about Clinton...." Pretty terrible troll job.

farfromfire

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #235 on: December 11, 2017, 07:06:57 AM »
It's literally how the conflict started.
Actually the conflict started with the West collectively decided to salve its conscience after WW2 by taking a bit of land in the middle east that had been occupied for centuries by another society and give it to the Jewish people.

You can argue till the cows come home that it was either the right or wrong thing to do and whether or not anything can be done about that monumentally stupid and self serving conquest now but there wasn't a conflict between the Palestinians and Jews before that.
Like much in this thread, this is factually incorrect. Unfortunately I do not have the time to educate you beyond this post, so I ask respectfully that you try to educate yourself before offering your opinion as fact.

The Balfour declaration was before WWII. So was the San Remo conference, so were all the times Arabs in the area decided it was a good time to kill Jews (1929, etc.) The reason people think the conflict is newer is because in the 60s some Arabs decided to start calling themselves Palestinians in hope of create an identity that they previously shunned (under British rule, almost only Jews referred to themselves as citizens of Palestine, see for example the previous name of the Jerusalem post; Arabs believed the land belonged to one of the Arab countries in the area, or a combination thereof).

In fact, the whole "Israel is a result of guilty conscience" argument falls flat on its face because the Brits were most antagonistic towards Jewish emigration to Israel before, during, and after the Holocaust. The Holocaust might have made it easier for foreign powers to understand why Jews need their own homeland, but it did not create Israel, nor Zionism's idea of a modern state of Israel.

Your comment also blatantly ignores that most of the coastal plains were purchased by Jews by the time the WW2 was over, not to mention all the land purchased since then - land was not taken and given by Western powers.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 07:09:03 AM by farfromfire »

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #236 on: December 11, 2017, 08:49:46 AM »
I am new to this thread, but I would love to hear from Trump *Primary* voters as well. I'm assuming everyone here so far was merely comparing him to Sec. Clinton. But I would really like to hear from people who were comparing him to guys like John Kasich.

Why would you vote for Kasich? He obviously had no chance of winning. He was running 4th in a 3 man race.

By Super Tuesday, your options were Trump or Cruz. Rubio was probably not going to win Florida, meaning he wasn't going to win anywhere else.

partgypsy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #237 on: December 11, 2017, 09:22:57 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement
You cannot reason with the unreasonable.  You just do the right thing and you deal with what happens.
Does this count as Godwin's Law?

Technical violation perhaps.  In the context of making concessions to foreign powers in the interest of peace, particularly foreign powers intent on wiping out the Jews, I don't think the sentiment of the Godwin's Law observation is as relevant here as you might like.  What I would like, for my own ability to come up with a cogent argument for appeasement, is an example of where it worked.  Like for instance, if the U.S. refusing to recognize Israel's capital had led to a sustained peace for Israel, the U.S., or the region in general.  Oh wait.  There isn't one.  The experiment has been tried a dozen times now all over the world and it has always led to open conflict.

It makes sense to lowkey not acknowledge Taiwan as an independent state, no need to antagonize the Chinese, and not antagonizing the Chinese has a benefit.  The residents of the region are still trying to convince each other that unification with China is good or that, alternatively, independence is good.  Peacefully.  When the unification talks break down, neighbors don't go home and plot to exterminate each other.  They don't sponsor state terrorism against us or our allies.  It makes sense not to antagonize the North Koreans, they're chillin' brutalizing their own people in a horrific regime of death, agony, and hopelessness, but I understand the willingness to say "not my monkey, not my circus."

In the context of U.S. state department official diplomatic actions, there is no reason not to recognize Jerusalem, failing to recognize it bought us nothing.  It made no difference.  It was a hollow gesture, without meaning.  Our leadership on the issue is likely why lots of other nations did the same, it is not that we did it made us leaders, us being leaders is why everyone else did it.

Recruiting tool for Al Qaeda?  Really?  We destroyed two nations, leading to apocalyptic conditions that killed millions, devastation so bad that the word decimate definitionally is inadequate, and sat by and watched as the whole region descended into chaos.  It's been open recruitment for awhile.  How about that's a bullshit reason not to do the right thing.

You've had your opportunity to explain why not recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is a terrible idea, and that's all you've come up with.  People who already hate us will still hate us, Palestinians who refuse to negotiate (we don't even know what they want because they won't propose anything, choosing instead to reject any proposal as offensive, leave the table, and start killing Israelis in open, armed, conflict), and worries over the safety of our personnel, which is the only one I'd accept, if we didn't already have a diplomatic mission in Jerusalem that'll be a shit-sight more safe with a full embassy contingent on hand for emergencies.  Oh, and also, you can't explain it because I clearly should just know, because it's that obvious.

For your own edification, go look at what places in the world the state department has lost the most people, where our embassies have been taken out by hostile forces.  Since 1979 there have been 24 attacks that I know of conducted by/carried out by the type of person likely to be offended by us moving our embassy to Jerusalem.  22 of those since Congress passed the act to move the embassy, the first since that passage (which probably should have stirred up some trouble all on its own if it was going to, yes?) the first was 1998.  The only place in that part of the world where our personnel have been safe is Israel, because it's the only place in that part of the world where the authorities respect the value of a non-muslim life.

The national security argument is a bullshit one.  It was fine in 1995, but it clearly hasn't made a damn bit of difference, except to be a slap in the face to the only ally over there who isn't secretly hoping we fail as a nation/outright calling for our extermination in a rain of fire and death.

And what drives me crazy, what drives me absolutely batshit crazy, is that ignorant liberals with no concept of the context and depth and history of the struggle in the middle east, who think the beauty pageant answer of "peace in the middle east" is just that, who see the nation of Israel as powerful and the Palestinians as weak and therefore Israel must have done something wrong, who have probably hundreds of things they could focus on with what Trump is doing wrong, instead choose to say that not only is he out of his depth on foreign policy, but that this somehow marks the end of...

Of course he's an idiot.  Of course he did this, and I shit you not I wouldn't be surprised at all if he did this: because six months ago they asked him to sign the waiver, he recognized it coming across his desk again, and said, "what do I have to do to not sign this waiver every 6 months, I came here to golf not sign shit twice a year", and so they're moving the fucking embassy.

That's what the criticism should be about.  He clearly has no fucking clue what he's doing.  Doesn't make moving the embassy a bad idea though.  I say we recognize Israel as the leader of the Arab League the next time jihadi's blow shit up.  Just keep upgrading our offensive rhetoric.  You kill a bunch of comics?  We put an image of your prophet giving Jesus a handy on our currency.  You decapitate an american journalist, we air drop translations of the quran that your people can actually read all over the countryside.  You go on TV and call for the extermination of the West, we announce we found your prophet's body and he had an inter-cranial infection of parasites, entire religion is actually a hallucination, also, was a hermaphrodite, technically female in terms of chromosomes.  You'll note I say your prophet, I actually didn't use the name, because I didn't want some fucked-up crazy person to murder people because I posted something offensive on the internet.

Passive Aggressive is a foreign policy strategy I can get behind.  It's cheap and effective.

So basically, you are saying that you don't believe in the entire concept of international relations or diplomacy. OOKay. I'm sure you know so much more about this than diplomats, military leaders, and power brokers dealing with people in these countries all these decades. If you want to create an us vs them situation, sure that's easy to do. If you want to have these other countries to buy into controlling and guiding their own people away from violent acts, you have given them no, actually negative motivation to do so. I'm not sure what that accomplishes, and it sure seems like you have little to no regard for innocents who are casualties on either side.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 09:25:42 AM by partgypsy »

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #238 on: December 11, 2017, 09:28:25 AM »
It's literally how the conflict started.
Actually the conflict started with the West collectively decided to salve its conscience after WW2 by taking a bit of land in the middle east that had been occupied for centuries by another society and give it to the Jewish people.

You can argue till the cows come home that it was either the right or wrong thing to do and whether or not anything can be done about that monumentally stupid and self serving conquest now but there wasn't a conflict between the Palestinians and Jews before that.
Like much in this thread, this is factually incorrect. Unfortunately I do not have the time to educate you beyond this post, so I ask respectfully that you try to educate yourself before offering your opinion as fact.

The Balfour declaration was before WWII. So was the San Remo conference, so were all the times Arabs in the area decided it was a good time to kill Jews (1929, etc.) The reason people think the conflict is newer is because in the 60s some Arabs decided to start calling themselves Palestinians in hope of create an identity that they previously shunned (under British rule, almost only Jews referred to themselves as citizens of Palestine, see for example the previous name of the Jerusalem post; Arabs believed the land belonged to one of the Arab countries in the area, or a combination thereof).

In fact, the whole "Israel is a result of guilty conscience" argument falls flat on its face because the Brits were most antagonistic towards Jewish emigration to Israel before, during, and after the Holocaust. The Holocaust might have made it easier for foreign powers to understand why Jews need their own homeland, but it did not create Israel, nor Zionism's idea of a modern state of Israel.

Your comment also blatantly ignores that most of the coastal plains were purchased by Jews by the time the WW2 was over, not to mention all the land purchased since then - land was not taken and given by Western powers.

Thank you!  We all have a responsibility to go look into the history ourselves, not just believe whatever narrative of convenience is being put forward by agendas with a vested interest.

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #239 on: December 11, 2017, 10:49:38 AM »
Like much in this thread, this is factually incorrect. Unfortunately I do not have the time to educate you beyond this post, so I ask respectfully that you try to educate yourself before offering your opinion as fact.

The Balfour declaration was before WWII. So was the San Remo conference, so were all the times Arabs in the area decided it was a good time to kill Jews (1929, etc.) The reason people think the conflict is newer is because in the 60s some Arabs decided to start calling themselves Palestinians in hope of create an identity that they previously shunned (under British rule, almost only Jews referred to themselves as citizens of Palestine, see for example the previous name of the Jerusalem post; Arabs believed the land belonged to one of the Arab countries in the area, or a combination thereof).

In fact, the whole "Israel is a result of guilty conscience" argument falls flat on its face because the Brits were most antagonistic towards Jewish emigration to Israel before, during, and after the Holocaust. The Holocaust might have made it easier for foreign powers to understand why Jews need their own homeland, but it did not create Israel, nor Zionism's idea of a modern state of Israel.

Your comment also blatantly ignores that most of the coastal plains were purchased by Jews by the time the WW2 was over, not to mention all the land purchased since then - land was not taken and given by Western powers.

I heard almost this exact same argument from a friend of mine.  He loves to explain, to anyone who will listen, how the history of the Jews is more complicated than most people realize.  He also loves to explain how the Holocaust was greatly exaggerated and Hitler was a great leader in a terrible time, one who unified a struggling and oppressed people in defense of their besieged culture.  His interpretation of "complicated history" is primarily an effort to undermine the "good vs evil" narrative that most people hold about WWII, as a way of apologizing for Naziism.  Unsurprisingly, he's a huge Trump supporter.

So while I appreciate your efforts to inject a little history into this discussion, I think you need to be careful about how the thematic thrust of your argument will be perceived, and about what company you keep in advancing those arguments.

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #240 on: December 11, 2017, 12:56:59 PM »
History is pretty complicated, but most eras in history would've been appalled by the Holocaust, and I don't think anyone past early antiquity, not even the Mongols, would've drawn up plans to kill or displace 100+ million Slavs.

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #241 on: December 11, 2017, 01:14:34 PM »
History is pretty complicated, but most eras in history would've been appalled by the Holocaust, and I don't think anyone past early antiquity, not even the Mongols, would've drawn up plans to kill or displace 100+ million Slavs.

I suspect that the will was there in the past.  People have always done pretty horrific stuff to one another.  WWII was a special coming together of will, large minority population, and technological advances that allowed it to take place the way it did.

talltexan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #242 on: December 11, 2017, 01:51:50 PM »
I am new to this thread, but I would love to hear from Trump *Primary* voters as well. I'm assuming everyone here so far was merely comparing him to Sec. Clinton. But I would really like to hear from people who were comparing him to guys like John Kasich.

Why would you vote for Kasich? He obviously had no chance of winning. He was running 4th in a 3 man race.

By Super Tuesday, your options were Trump or Cruz. Rubio was probably not going to win Florida, meaning he wasn't going to win anywhere else.

This is a legitimate question, and I feel I have to answer for my Kasich vote (in the GOP primary). I had a lot of discussions with other conservative friends, and I concluded that--in the primary--it was the duty of a primary voter to indicate which available candidate was the best choice for the office. No strategy, no assuming there'd be a certain matchup in the general election, just ranking the (GOP) choices and indicating the best one.

fluffmuffin

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #243 on: December 11, 2017, 02:12:06 PM »
I am new to this thread, but I would love to hear from Trump *Primary* voters as well. I'm assuming everyone here so far was merely comparing him to Sec. Clinton. But I would really like to hear from people who were comparing him to guys like John Kasich.

If it's helpful, both of my Trump-voting relatives voted for him in the primary, for the same reasons that they voted for him in the general election (albeit with less #Killary). One was maybe more into the fact that he would run America more "like a business," relative to the establishment candidates. Both wanted someone who would shake things up and MAGA. One has been a steady, party-line Republican voter; one skews libertarian and often votes third-party in the general election.

PKFFW

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #244 on: December 11, 2017, 02:24:24 PM »
Like much in this thread, this is factually incorrect. Unfortunately I do not have the time to educate you beyond this post, so I ask respectfully that you try to educate yourself before offering your opinion as fact.

The Balfour declaration was before WWII. So was the San Remo conference, so were all the times Arabs in the area decided it was a good time to kill Jews (1929, etc.) The reason people think the conflict is newer is because in the 60s some Arabs decided to start calling themselves Palestinians in hope of create an identity that they previously shunned (under British rule, almost only Jews referred to themselves as citizens of Palestine, see for example the previous name of the Jerusalem post; Arabs believed the land belonged to one of the Arab countries in the area, or a combination thereof).
Oh, I thought we were talking about a conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.  Since there was no Israel for at least a few centuries, I also figured we were talking about the modern state of Israel.  It seemed to me that this was the case because the comment was made by TheOldestYoungMan that the rejection of the two-state solution by the Palestinians was "literally how the conflict started."  You know, that solution that was only formulated and proposed after the formation of the modern state of Israel and in response to the modern conflict between the Palestinians and the state of Israel.

Now I guess he must have been talking about that other two state solution that was talked about before the modern state of Israel was even formed.

I do admit though, that Arabs and Jewish people have been at each others throats for centuries, so yes you are correct.  I'd argue it's not quite as clear cut how that animosity and conflict began as you and TheOldestYoungMan may like to believe and that laying the entirety of the blame at the feet of the Arab peoples is probably a bit simplistic no matter how comforting it may be.
Quote from: farfromfire
In fact, the whole "Israel is a result of guilty conscience" argument falls flat on its face because the Brits were most antagonistic towards Jewish emigration to Israel before, during, and after the Holocaust. The Holocaust might have made it easier for foreign powers to understand why Jews need their own homeland, but it did not create Israel, nor Zionism's idea of a modern state of Israel.
No western nation of any significance was supportive of creating a Jewish homeland prior to the Holocaust.  Many were after the Holocaust.  I know correlation does not equal causation but it's a heck of a correlation.
Quote from: farfromfire
Your comment also blatantly ignores that most of the coastal plains were purchased by Jews by the time the WW2 was over, not to mention all the land purchased since then - land was not taken and given by Western powers.
Purchasing land within a geographical area currently occupied does mean you now have your own nation state.  I own my own house and land but I don't get to be king of my own nation because of that.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #245 on: December 11, 2017, 02:27:02 PM »

So basically, you are saying that you don't believe in the entire concept of international relations or diplomacy. OOKay. I'm sure you know so much more about this than diplomats, military leaders, and power brokers dealing with people in these countries all these decades. If you want to create an us vs them situation, sure that's easy to do. If you want to have these other countries to buy into controlling and guiding their own people away from violent acts, you have given them no, actually negative motivation to do so. I'm not sure what that accomplishes, and it sure seems like you have little to no regard for innocents who are casualties on either side.

That's not what I'm saying.  What I'm saying is that there is a huge difference between complying with a reasonable request of someone, or even with their demand, if you get something for it, and continuing to do so long after it has been demonstrated that you get nothing for it.  Even if all you get is an intangible such as the oft-cited "goodwill" of other nations.  And the precedent of using embassy locations as part of ongoing dialogues is well established by this point, as I mentioned, we do it elsewhere and it works, there isn't open violence, and the parties at least pretend to talk, even if no progress is ever made.

But when the other side of the negotiating table puts a gun to your head, and demands you do something or they'll pull the trigger, and you go ahead and do it, because you don't want them to pull the trigger...and then they pull the trigger anyway, at what point does the reasonable man stop believing that giving in to their demands will yield positive results?

The other side of the table is not negotiating in good faith.  It is not OK that the announcement of the U.S. moving an embassy would cause violence in the middle east.  It is also not our fault or our problem.  The people who choose violence are at fault.  We don't need to give them motivation to not choose violence, but I reject your premise that we haven't.  Given every opportunity to pursue solutions through peaceful means, talking, diplomacy, negotiations, they have instead chose violence.  Regardless of where our embassy is.

The objection here is rooted in partisan politics, Trump hatred, and a resistance to a perceived status quo that never existed.  The idea that our doing this caused something over there to happen...if it hadn't been this it would have been something else.  So today they got to blow some people up because we announced we were moving the embassy, such a shame, they would have had to blow people up because it was Monday otherwise.

It's a false correlation.  Do not believe the narrative that some innocuous action of the west, some mundane feature of living our lives as we best see fit, is sufficient justification for horrific violence.  That is patently absurd.  Only in the context of a worldview that sees the west as evil incarnate is that OK.

The seductiveness of a viable solution involving Jerusalem, a united, independent, Jerusalem as an international city is potent.  But it is incompatible with fundamental tenants of Islamic ideology, and it is incompatible with the pathology of the peoples there who refuse to value their neighbors as human because of their religion.  The idea is born of fiction, laid on a foundation of selective history, where the strong are always wrong and Bad Things Only Happen to Bad People.

As to me knowing more than all these experts, of course I don't know more than them, but I can look at the state of the Middle East right now and see the most stable part of it is Israel, probably Saudi Arabia too.  Normalized relations with us is apparently good for you.  Kuwait seems like a pretty decent place to live, having decided to not try and kill us and just sell us oil.  It isn't that not choosing violence means we'll be nice to you and stop our negative mojo and you'll be a successful stable country, it's that if you're choosing violence everything is unstable and eventually turns to shit.

I can look at world leaders, who specifically cite not wanting to incite terrorist violence, and call them cowards and idiots besides.  The terrorist violence has never needed a reason, and if they did, that ship sailed long ago.  The sooner we stop trying to reason with people who left the negotiating table long ago, the better off we'll all be.

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #246 on: December 11, 2017, 03:17:52 PM »
Like much in this thread, this is factually incorrect. Unfortunately I do not have the time to educate you beyond this post, so I ask respectfully that you try to educate yourself before offering your opinion as fact.

The Balfour declaration was before WWII.

I've taken your advice and educated myself.  It has made your response a bit puzzling.

The text of the Balfour declaration:
"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

So . . . literally nothing was said about establishing a Jewish state that would aggressively annex it's neighbours.

So was the San Remo conference,

Text of Resolution (edited for just the relevant bits):

It was agreed –
(a) To accept the terms of the Mandates Article as given below with reference to Palestine, on the understanding that there was inserted in the procès-verbal an undertaking by the Mandatory Power that this would not involve the surrender of the rights hitherto enjoyed by the non-Jewish communities in Palestine

(b) The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory, to be selected by the said Powers. The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on the 8th [2nd] November, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

So again, there was no establishment of a Jewish state prior to WWII and European guilt.


so were all the times Arabs in the area decided it was a good time to kill Jews (1929, etc.)

I'm obviously not going to condone murdering people, which has happened on both sides in the Jewish-Arab conflicts over the years.

You're implying with your statement that this occurred without any cause though.  A couple days before, hundreds of Jewish nationalists marched to the western wall in Jerusalam shouting slogans like "The Wall Is Ours" and raising the Jewish flag.  There were reports of Jewish youth attacking Arabs, cursing Mohammed, and rumours that they were planning to attack the al-Aqsa Mosque.


Your comment also blatantly ignores that most of the coastal plains were purchased by Jews by the time the WW2 was over, not to mention all the land purchased since then - land was not taken and given by Western powers.

As an American, would you be OK with a few Mexican people who were in the country legally buying some coastal property and then illegally inviting a few hundred thousand of their countrymen to come stay with them?  Then continuing to invite more until they start to forcibly take land from the Americans who live there?

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #247 on: December 11, 2017, 03:29:34 PM »

Oh, I thought we were talking about a conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.  Since there was no Israel for at least a few centuries, I also figured we were talking about the modern state of Israel.  It seemed to me that this was the case because the comment was made by TheOldestYoungMan that the rejection of the two-state solution by the Palestinians was "literally how the conflict started."  You know, that solution that was only formulated and proposed after the formation of the modern state of Israel and in response to the modern conflict between the Palestinians and the state of Israel.

Now I guess he must have been talking about that other two state solution that was talked about before the modern state of Israel was even formed.

I do admit though, that Arabs and Jewish people have been at each others throats for centuries, so yes you are correct.  I'd argue it's not quite as clear cut how that animosity and conflict began as you and TheOldestYoungMan may like to believe and that laying the entirety of the blame at the feet of the Arab peoples is probably a bit simplistic no matter how comforting it may be.

I cannot stress enough, you do not know what you are talking about.

Claim the first:  the conflict between those people calling themselves Palestinians and those calling themselves Israelis started after the Holocaust, is somehow the result of nationbuilding in the post-ww2 era.

Why this is false:  The best direct path to trace the violence has it starting due to resentment of the seeming betrayal of the arabs by the British, who instead of recognizing arab independence in the reason in return for them helping to defeat the Ottoman Empire in WW1, created Mandatory Palestine and had notions of creating a jewish homeland in the region.

Claim the second:  the two state solution was proposed after the creation of modern Israel.

Why this is false:  With some slight variation, the two state solution was the idea put forward as a compromise between the two nationalistic movements within Mandatory Palestine after the founding of the United Nations.  Given that the U.N. charter insists on the rights of people to self-determination, it doesn't really make sense to have a one state solution, was the thinking.  So a compromise was developed, where certain parts of the country would be Israel and others Palestine, and still others were to be Syria.  I think.  It was only after this proposal was presented to the U.N. and agreed to that open conflict started.  The Palestinians and their Arab allies believed they could force a better deal, that the Jews were weak and could be removed from the area through force.  They were wrong, they lost the war, the Jews soundly defeated them, and many Arabs fled.  Israel was born, after the rejection of the two-state solution.

It is important to note, that at the negotiating table after the war, the Jews were still willing to accept a two-state solution, and ceded territories outside the proposed borders of the two-state solution to Palestinian/Syrian/Arab control. Because they are reasonable people and understand that a two-state solution could work, and likely nothing else would.

Claim the third:  It is comforting to lay the blame at the feet of the Arabs, but that is too simplistic a view.

Why this is false:  The Israelis have never left the negotiating table.  It wasn't their idea to make a deal with the British in WW1.  They never asked for special consideration prior to WW1 or tried to re-create a homeland in the area.  After 1920, arabs in the area in response to British rule began harassing and oppressing jews in the area, because that's how their religion works.  Jews responded not with violence, but by seeking the right of self-determination, as is reasonable of all thinking beings.  It is only after 1936, when Arabs began violently attacking Jews, that the Jews began militarizing, for the first time, as far as I know, since antiquity.

Every solution that does not involve the Jews giving up their hard-won power, and stepping aside to turn complete control and autonomy of the entire region over to Palestinians, is met with the Palestinians leaving the table and initiating open, armed conflict.  And they don't form a military and attack the Israeli government, they just start wholesale slaughtering anyone they can get their hands on, bombing restaurants and sending mortars into residential neighborhoods.

The Palestinians started a civil war, which they then lost, and that is the history of Modern Israel.  The conflict is ongoing because the Jews will not eliminate the Palestinians.  There are only two likely resolutions to the conflict:  The Palestinians eventually overcome the IDF and kill every Jew in Israel, or the end of time arrives and we all go out with a tiny little whimper.  The last Palestinians who actually lived in the areas they were displaced from during the civil war are dying of old age, but the conflict still has no end in sight.  There will literally be generations of Arabs who think of themselves as living in exile because their supposed allies will not do the job of a friend, and tell them they've lost.  They're the guy chasing the girl who got married to someone else fifty years ago.  It stopped being healthy awhile ago, and it was never understandable.

Claim the fourth: Arabs and Jews have been at each others throats for centuries.

Why this is false:  Arabs attack Jews, and sometimes, not always but sometimes, Jews defend themselves.  It's a subtle but significant difference.  I get the sentiment behind "I wish they would just get along" but it belies a consistent failure to pay attention.  Sometimes when the kids fight its both of their fault.  This isn't one of those times.  It hasn't been for awhile.

I'm curious, do you recognize the Confederate States of America?  They fought a civil war and lost, so no.

What about Scotland?  An independent Scotland?  Sure, if they vote and that's what they want.

Now what if the vote is close, and about 45% of the people want to stay, lets call them Brits.  The vote happens, the Scots win, and the Brits go out that night and start murdering Scots.  The Scots manage to fight them off, and push them out of town, and eventually the Brits give up after years of fighting.

Are you really saying the Brits in that situation deserve anything?  And then the Scots go ahead and offer them half the country to live in, and they say no, fuck you, and start murdering scots again?

That's what this is.  It was messy, sure, it would be wouldn't it?  But when the dust clears the victim isn't necessarily the one in the dirt.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #248 on: December 11, 2017, 03:49:11 PM »
so were all the times Arabs in the area decided it was a good time to kill Jews (1929, etc.)

I'm obviously not going to condone murdering people, which has happened on both sides in the Jewish-Arab conflicts over the years.

You're implying with your statement that this occurred without any cause though.  A couple days before, hundreds of Jewish nationalists marched to the western wall in Jerusalam shouting slogans like "The Wall Is Ours" and raising the Jewish flag.  There were reports of Jewish youth attacking Arabs, cursing Mohammed, and rumours that they were planning to attack the al-Aqsa Mosque.

Condone?  Perhaps no.  Rationalize?  Shit yea.  Acceptable response to protestors:  burn their fields to the ground, murder their children in their beds.  Got it.  Note to self, don't protest near GuitarStv.

Quote
Your comment also blatantly ignores that most of the coastal plains were purchased by Jews by the time the WW2 was over, not to mention all the land purchased since then - land was not taken and given by Western powers.

As an American, would you be OK with a few Mexican people who were in the country legally buying some coastal property and then illegally inviting a few hundred thousand of their countrymen to come stay with them?  Then continuing to invite more until they start to forcibly take land from the Americans who live there?

If a few Mexican people started launching rockets and mortars at El Paso because it used to be part of Mexico, I expect we would "aggressively annex" some territory as well.  As it turns out, if someone starts a war and then loses, and in the course of that war they lose territory, the loss might be permanent.  The terms of the end of the war might include territory concessions, or it might not.  Open armed conflict moves borders.  That's why you don't start killing neighbors in the street in a horrifying civil war when the other side is still talking.  The restraint shown by Israel is impressive really.  If Mexicans in Juarez did to Texas what the Palestinians do to Israel, the Southern border of the U.S. would cut across somewhere in Tabasco.  Manifest Destiny.

As for the rest of your post, yes, that's what we're saying.  The relentless quest to find the source of that conflict in interference from outside powers is fallacy.  It wasn't a result of post WW2 western guilt, it wasn't a result of some zionist conspiracy.  Jews and Arabs living in the region both wanted regional autonomy.  The origin of the conflict, the actual origin, is when Arabs left the negotiating table because of one round not going in their favor, and initiated a civil war.  Instead of continuing to negotiate and fight in a civilized way, to move forward to a solution they would find tolerable, they chose to just wipe out the infidels.  And then lost.  And won't get over it.

Israel has shown remarkable restraint, patience, and tolerance.  We (Americans) would have annihilated the Palestinians.  Assimilate or GTFO.  We'd have set up little Palestinian reservations and ordained that they drink whiskey and get mediocre healthcare.

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #249 on: December 11, 2017, 03:57:46 PM »
Arabs attack Jews, and sometimes, not always but sometimes, Jews defend themselves.  It's a subtle but significant difference.

Torching Arab mosques: https://www.thejc.com/judaism/features/does-the-torah-back-burning-mosques-1.18965
Mailbombing: https://www.jweekly.com/1995/06/16/jdl-member-gets-life-term-in-bombing/
Religious arguments for murder of anyone not Jewish: https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2.209/the-king-s-torah-a-rabbinic-text-or-a-call-to-terror-1.261930
Indiscriminate Murder: http://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/28/world/west-bank-massacre-before-killing-final-prayer-and-final-taunt.html?pagewanted=all
Settlers attacking Palestinians and property, not for defense:  https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3725186,00.html

"For more than a decade, the Jewish Defense League (JDL) has been one of the most active terrorist groups in the United States. [...] Since 1968, JDL operations have killed 7 persons and wounded at least 22. Thirty-nine percent of the targets were connected with the Soviet Union; 9 percent were Palestinian; 8 percent were Lebanese; 6 percent, Egyptian; 4 percent, French, Iranian, and Iraqi; 1 percent, Polish and German; and 23 percent were not connected with any states. Sixty-two percent of all JDL actions are directed against property; 30 percent against businesses; 4 percent against academics and academic institutions; and 2 percent against religious targets." - Department of Energy, Terrorism in the United States and the Potential Threat to Nuclear Facilities, R-3351-DOE, January 1986, pp. 11–16


That difference must be too subtle for me to see.  Or maybe, just maybe . . . everyone involved is human.  There are terrible things done on both sides of this conflict.  Things that have been going on for years.