Author Topic: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?  (Read 82831 times)

MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1050 on: February 14, 2018, 09:59:56 AM »
I know Trump has said a lot of things, but can you show me where he has said he's going to defend discrimination?  I'm looking for something more than a "he said X, but really means Y" since I have trouble following some of those.

No, and I think you're being deliberately obtuse.

Because "religious freedom" in the context of American Christianity is a dog whistle for "right to discriminate." Christianity in America is not, and has never been, under attack in any meaningful way.

The idea that what consenting adults do in their own private space somehow affects a third party's religious life (or secular life, for that matter) is patently absurd. Any argument to the contrary betrays an authoritarian impulse that goes against many of the founding principles of the United States. People fought and died to expand those rights and principles to all people. The desire by a vocal subset of the population to regress is offensive in the extreme.

Basically, if you can't be nice to someone, just shut your face.
Well I disagree, I don't think "religious freedom" = "right to discriminate."  I do think there are places where they overlap, and that requires careful consideration, but there's overlap in a lot of ideas. 

So you don't have a quote?  It seems you're trying to put words into Trump's mouth that fit your opinion of him.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1051 on: February 14, 2018, 10:26:06 AM »
Well I disagree, I don't think "religious freedom" = "right to discriminate."  I do think there are places where they overlap, and that requires careful consideration, but there's overlap in a lot of ideas. 

So you don't have a quote?  It seems you're trying to put words into Trump's mouth that fit your opinion of him.

You're right, the freedom of religion doesn't equal the right to discriminate.

You                                                                                                            The point

The whole purpose of a dog whistle is that you can't quote someone explicitly advocating a ridiculous position. It's encoded in words that are literally defensible (as you so ably demonstrate), but carry subtext that everyone can understand.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

wenchsenior

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1052 on: February 14, 2018, 10:32:14 AM »
Well I disagree, I don't think "religious freedom" = "right to discriminate."  I do think there are places where they overlap, and that requires careful consideration, but there's overlap in a lot of ideas. 

So you don't have a quote?  It seems you're trying to put words into Trump's mouth that fit your opinion of him.

You're right, the freedom of religion doesn't equal the right to discriminate.

You                                                                                                            The point

The whole purpose of a dog whistle is that you can't quote someone explicitly advocating a ridiculous position. It's encoded in words that are literally defensible (as you so ably demonstrate), but carry subtext that everyone can understand.

I thought the travel ban was pretty much an explicit statement of religious discrimination against Muslims.

MasterStache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1053 on: February 14, 2018, 10:41:47 AM »
Well I disagree, I don't think "religious freedom" = "right to discriminate."  I do think there are places where they overlap, and that requires careful consideration, but there's overlap in a lot of ideas. 

So you don't have a quote?  It seems you're trying to put words into Trump's mouth that fit your opinion of him.

You're right, the freedom of religion doesn't equal the right to discriminate.

You                                                                                                            The point

The whole purpose of a dog whistle is that you can't quote someone explicitly advocating a ridiculous position. It's encoded in words that are literally defensible (as you so ably demonstrate), but carry subtext that everyone can understand.

I thought the travel ban was pretty much an explicit statement of religious discrimination against Muslims.

Or the Obama "birther movement," calling black athletes SOBs, the numerous discriminatory based lawsuits he settled, "shithole countries," defending white nationalist as "some very fine people" etc. etc. Hell picking Pence as his VP.

shenlong55

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1054 on: February 14, 2018, 10:53:31 AM »
Again, standard disclaimer:  I don't believe, as a Christian, that I am called upon to in any way behave any differently towards any other human, regardless of the facts of how they live their life.  I am to always assume everyone I deal with is "undercover Jesus" waiting to catch me treating someone badly.  It's fundamental to me to the extent that I don't believe it's right to not hire someone because of felony status, and I abhor all legalized discrimination based on past activities such as drug use, legal violations, etc.  Faith to me, means trusting others to do the right thing, and dealing with the consequences if they let me down.

But that's my religion and it works for me.  It isn't for me to impose that on anyone else.  If someone else believes their religion keeps them from doing a thing, that's really between them and their god.  I can believe they are misguided.  I can buy cake elsewhere, because to me it is just cake, but clearly to them it is something more significant.  I believe a legal protection should extend once, to us, it becomes more than just cake, such as it did with the lunch counters.

If your beliefs prevented you from servicing Christians, I am required by my Christianity to accept that.  And I believe your right to refuse me service based on that belief is constitutionally protected at this point.  I don't believe the government has the right to refuse me service because of my faith, and interfering with my ability to engage in commerce because of that belief feels like what happened to this guy.

And that you don't hold the same belief as him has got to carry at least as much weight as my argument that to me, it's just cake.  Which is to say none at all.  Because in these cases we shouldn't look to the preferences of the people who think it's just cake, we should look to the preferences of the people for whom it is more than just cake.
I didn't read that inclusion of the numbers as central to his argument, rather put there for emphasis.  As in, if we're going to enact sweeping federal legislation with broad powers and murderously harsh penalties it should be because there's an actual problem that calls for it and has no other resolution in sight.  Gay rights and the situation in general for homosexuals has been improving steadily in the U.S., and now, as then, the real successes have been not in adding legislation establishing the protected class, but stripping the legislation that enshrined certain biases and excluded, either explicitly or accidentally, homosexuals and homosexual couples.

The civil rights era in U.S. History, which many of you in this thread have gotten completely wrong, was an era where these forms of discrimination were explicitly legal and in some cases required.  The government was building facilities with separate drinking fountains.  It was the law itself that was the problem.  That's a fundamental difference to the baker case, where the problem is an individual asshole.

And so we have this legislation on our books that has a historical context, and the goal as a country should be to move towards a world where it isn't necessary.  I don't think we're there yet but we're getting closer.

Someone mentioned a swastika cake, and that is an interesting example.  In Germany you couldn't create a Swastika cake.  They have specific laws about shit like that because it was a problem for them, and their national shame calls on all of them to accept a restriction on their right of free expression.  We don't have a similar prohibition because, quite frankly, it's helpful when people raise that flag so you know they don't matter and can be safely ignored (or in the case of liberals, claim they're valid representations of the right and attempt to conflate the two).

So too in this country, our legacy of racial relations calls upon many of us to accept restrictions on our rights to discriminate, because we took it too far for too long, and refused to change by any other means.


There's a constitutional basis for the enforcement of things in the civil rights act as well, it's the 14th amendment, which is specific:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

And so a law that says same-sex marriage or relations between same-sex couples at the state level is unconstitional, and we see those victories happening again and again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas

But a law that provides special protections to same-sex couples...that isn't as clear cut.

Thank you for the excellent explanation of your position.  I can't say that I 100% agree with it, but I do feel like I understand it much better now.  My main disagreement would be that I feel that our legacy of relations with the LGBT community may call upon many of us to accept restrictions on our rights to discriminate similarly to how you feel our legacy of race relations does the same.  In my view, maybe we should have some national shame with regards to how we have treated the LGBT community in the past and accept some restrictions on our rights to free expression based on that.  I agree that we shouldn't be forcing anyone to create a cake with a message on it that they disagree with, but in this particular case it seems pretty clear that the baker denied service to the gay couple solely based on the fact that they were gay and not based on the design of the cake at all.  Personally, I think that requiring that kind of clarity is a good enough limitation on the restriction of our right to discriminate and if it wasn't so clear I might very well come down on the side of the baker.

Dabnasty

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1055 on: February 14, 2018, 10:55:07 AM »
I know Trump has said a lot of things, but can you show me where he has said he's going to defend discrimination?  I'm looking for something more than a "he said X, but really means Y" since I have trouble following some of those.

No, and I think you're being deliberately obtuse.

Because "religious freedom" in the context of American Christianity is a dog whistle for "right to discriminate." Christianity in America is not, and has never been, under attack in any meaningful way.

The idea that what consenting adults do in their own private space somehow affects a third party's religious life (or secular life, for that matter) is patently absurd. Any argument to the contrary betrays an authoritarian impulse that goes against many of the founding principles of the United States. People fought and died to expand those rights and principles to all people. The desire by a vocal subset of the population to regress is offensive in the extreme.

Basically, if you can't be nice to someone, just shut your face.
Well I disagree, I don't think "religious freedom" = "right to discriminate."  I do think there are places where they overlap, and that requires careful consideration, but there's overlap in a lot of ideas. 

So you don't have a quote?  It seems you're trying to put words into Trump's mouth that fit your opinion of him.

What religious freedom is he referring to when he says he will defend them?

My best understanding:
1) Christian freedoms
2) The freedom to not have to hear about or deal with other religions in the media
3) The freedom to discriminate against others based on your religion
4) The freedom to impose Christian beliefs and messages on others

Things like removing the pledge of allegiance from schools are in no way meant to be an attack on Christianity. School is a public place and some students are not Christian. Saying one nation under God is, in a sense, an attack on their religious freedom, removing it is not an attack on anything. But that's not how people who grew up with Christianity see it. When something has become so ingrained in your view of "normal" I can understand that it's difficult to see the other side (took me a while in terms of religion, I'm sure I still have a long ways to go in other areas) but anyone coming from an alien world with no prior concept of religion would clearly see that it is the Christians in American who are limiting the religious freedoms of others.

(This is not a criticism of all Christians, I'm using the term in context of the argument made by those who feel they are being persecuted.)


MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1056 on: February 14, 2018, 10:56:08 AM »
The whole purpose of a dog whistle is that you can't quote someone explicitly advocating a ridiculous position. It's encoded in words that are literally defensible (as you so ably demonstrate), but carry subtext that everyone can understand.
I guess not everyone.  I've always had problems with underlying assumptions.  I remember when someone explained to me that "welfare queens" generally referred to black women. 

Is there a study that shows that most people understand this subtext?

MDM

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1057 on: February 14, 2018, 11:00:30 AM »
The whole purpose of a dog whistle is that you can't quote someone explicitly advocating a ridiculous position. It's encoded in words that are literally defensible (as you so ably demonstrate), but carry subtext that everyone can understand.
I guess not everyone.  I've always had problems with underlying assumptions.  I remember when someone explained to me that "welfare queens" generally referred to black women. 

Is there a study that shows that most people understand this subtext?
People hear what they want to hear.  That cuts both ways.

shenlong55

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1058 on: February 14, 2018, 11:03:10 AM »
I know Trump has said a lot of things, but can you show me where he has said he's going to defend discrimination?  I'm looking for something more than a "he said X, but really means Y" since I have trouble following some of those.

No, and I think you're being deliberately obtuse.

Because "religious freedom" in the context of American Christianity is a dog whistle for "right to discriminate." Christianity in America is not, and has never been, under attack in any meaningful way.

The idea that what consenting adults do in their own private space somehow affects a third party's religious life (or secular life, for that matter) is patently absurd. Any argument to the contrary betrays an authoritarian impulse that goes against many of the founding principles of the United States. People fought and died to expand those rights and principles to all people. The desire by a vocal subset of the population to regress is offensive in the extreme.

Basically, if you can't be nice to someone, just shut your face.
Well I disagree, I don't think "religious freedom" = "right to discriminate."  I do think there are places where they overlap, and that requires careful consideration, but there's overlap in a lot of ideas. 

So you don't have a quote?  It seems you're trying to put words into Trump's mouth that fit your opinion of him.

I agree that "religious freedom" != "right to discriminate.  However, if my understanding of the term "religious freedom" includes the right to discriminate based on my religion and I say that I will defend "religious freedom" then I am in fact stating that I will defend the right to discriminate based on my religion.  I don't know what Trump's understanding of the term "religious freedom" entails, but I would think that we could get some insight into that question by looking at the related ideas that he does or does not support.

Dabnasty

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1059 on: February 14, 2018, 11:07:01 AM »
The whole purpose of a dog whistle is that you can't quote someone explicitly advocating a ridiculous position. It's encoded in words that are literally defensible (as you so ably demonstrate), but carry subtext that everyone can understand.
I guess not everyone.  I've always had problems with underlying assumptions.  I remember when someone explained to me that "welfare queens" generally referred to black women. 

Is there a study that shows that most people understand this subtext?

The term originated with a real person, Linda Taylor, who was a black woman

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_queen

Quote
the phrase "welfare queen" has remained a stigmatizing label and is most often directed toward black, single mothers
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 11:08:42 AM by Dabnasty »

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1060 on: February 14, 2018, 11:08:53 AM »
The whole purpose of a dog whistle is that you can't quote someone explicitly advocating a ridiculous position. It's encoded in words that are literally defensible (as you so ably demonstrate), but carry subtext that everyone can understand.
I guess not everyone.  I've always had problems with underlying assumptions.  I remember when someone explained to me that "welfare queens" generally referred to black women. 

Is there a study that shows that most people understand this subtext?

It's not a study, but a good explainer nevertheless: https://www.splcenter.org/20160211/religious-liberty-and-anti-lgbt-right
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

Lagom

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1061 on: February 14, 2018, 04:50:42 PM »
Still waiting for a convincing argument on why trying to stop people (e.g. like the baker, Hobby Lobby, etc.) from forcing religious beliefs onto others who don't share those beliefs  somehow represents oppression and/or government overreach.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 05:02:36 PM by Lagom »

RidetheRain

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1062 on: February 14, 2018, 05:05:56 PM »
Still waiting for a convincing argument on why trying to stop people from forcing religious beliefs onto others who don't share those beliefs (e.g. like the Baker, Hobby Lobby, etc.) somehow represents oppression and/or government overreach.

I think the problem with looking for a convincing argument on that is that most people either don't see it that way or aren't capable of a convincing argument in your view - or agrees with you :)

For example, a lot of people will say that Hobby Lobby isn't forcing their beliefs on employees, they just aren't accommodating yours to their own detriment (higher insurance costs or whatever). There's an ignorant sort of person that will also go the "just don't work there" route with the argument.

Or they look at the belief as a moral absolute. Pro-life people see abortion as the same thing as killing toddler. If you don't see it the same way then you aren't going to find the argument convincing. After all, how do you argue that killing is bad other than it just is?
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rosaz

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1063 on: February 14, 2018, 08:23:31 PM »
So, I'm kind of on the fence about this topic and I've been meaning to ask a question of someone that takes your position.  Would it be okay, in your view, for me to start a business and then deny my services to someone because of their religion?  How about because of their age?  Or race/sex?  How far does this freedom of association go?  I just feel like if the guy who wouldn't bake a cake for a gay couple walked into my store and was turned away due to his religion he would probably not be okay with it.

Based on what you wrote though, it seems to me like your saying that those with a conservative/libertarian worldview think that anti-discrimination laws are some kind of necessary evil.  That they are not constitutionally sound, but that they are required for certain real-life scenarios that go beyond a certain tipping point like what happened with racial discrimination.  Am I understanding that correctly?

Can't speak for the original poster, but that more or less sums it up for me (not the part about relative size of black vs gay populations; thats irrelevant. But inability to purchase a wedding cake from a specific baker is clearly not on par with Jim Crow. Please note I make no assertions as to whether racism is worse than homophobia in 2018, or in 1968. Just that gay people today in the US are obviously not treated as badly as black people were 50 years ago).

As for denying service on the basis of other characteristics - it's fairly routine to do this on the basis of age and sex - think seniors-only housing or nightclub bouncers only letting in ladies. Admittedly analogous examples with race or religion are harder to come by.

As for whether it's ok - I think anyone denying service to a gay couple is a horrible person doing a horrible thing, and if they were nearby, I would boycott them and encourage all my neighbors to do the same. But just because something is not ok does not mean it should be illegal.

Kris

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1064 on: February 14, 2018, 08:25:26 PM »
So, I'm kind of on the fence about this topic and I've been meaning to ask a question of someone that takes your position.  Would it be okay, in your view, for me to start a business and then deny my services to someone because of their religion?  How about because of their age?  Or race/sex?  How far does this freedom of association go?  I just feel like if the guy who wouldn't bake a cake for a gay couple walked into my store and was turned away due to his religion he would probably not be okay with it.

Based on what you wrote though, it seems to me like your saying that those with a conservative/libertarian worldview think that anti-discrimination laws are some kind of necessary evil.  That they are not constitutionally sound, but that they are required for certain real-life scenarios that go beyond a certain tipping point like what happened with racial discrimination.  Am I understanding that correctly?

Can't speak for the original poster, but that more or less sums it up for me (not the part about relative size of black vs gay populations; thats irrelevant. But inability to purchase a wedding cake from a specific baker is clearly not on par with Jim Crow. Please note I make no assertions as to whether racism is worse than homophobia in 2018, or in 1968. Just that gay people today in the US are obviously not treated as badly as black people were 50 years ago).

As for denying service on the basis of other characteristics - it's fairly routine to do this on the basis of age and sex - think seniors-only housing or nightclub bouncers only letting in ladies. Admittedly analogous examples with race or religion are harder to come by.

As for whether it's ok - I think anyone denying service to a gay couple is a horrible person doing a horrible thing, and if they were nearby, I would boycott them and encourage all my neighbors to do the same. But just because something is not ok does not mean it should be illegal.

What if a business refused to serve white people? Should that be legal?
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Lagom

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1065 on: February 14, 2018, 09:29:54 PM »
Still waiting for a convincing argument on why trying to stop people from forcing religious beliefs onto others who don't share those beliefs (e.g. like the Baker, Hobby Lobby, etc.) somehow represents oppression and/or government overreach.

I think the problem with looking for a convincing argument on that is that most people either don't see it that way or aren't capable of a convincing argument in your view - or agrees with you :)

For example, a lot of people will say that Hobby Lobby isn't forcing their beliefs on employees, they just aren't accommodating yours to their own detriment (higher insurance costs or whatever). There's an ignorant sort of person that will also go the "just don't work there" route with the argument.

Or they look at the belief as a moral absolute. Pro-life people see abortion as the same thing as killing toddler. If you don't see it the same way then you aren't going to find the argument convincing. After all, how do you argue that killing is bad other than it just is?

Yes I am aware people equivocate, which is an objective reason to call their "arguments" unconvincing. Let's make it even easier and ignore Hobby Lobby for a moment and stick to the baker, since he seems to be the hot issue in this thread. That is nowhere close to the abortion debate, after all.

He could have done what he always did, making no changes to his life whatsoever, but instead went out of his way to impact the lives of other people because he wanted to force his worldview onto them in some small fashion. The egregiousness of the actual offense is immaterial. He was infringing on other people's rights definitively. As has been pointed out ad naseum, no one was infringing on his at all, especially since he had entered a contract with the state when he opened his business in the first place.

Now returning to Hobby Lobby, that reasoning is objectively bad from its supporters because, among other flaws, it follows the slippery slope fallacy. If I am to accept that it's imposing my views on Hobby Lobby to require them to cover specific contraceptives due to the (extremely high, I'm sure) cost, it is logical to extend that argument that I shouldn't require them to provide any health coverage whatsoever because health coverage has costs involved. Also, from their own press release, Hobby Lobby contended that "religious beliefs prohibit them from providing health coverage for contraceptive drugs and devices that end human life after conception." (source - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2014/03/24/heres-what-you-need-to-know-about-the-hobby-lobby-case/?utm_term=.0561914f1f84)

You might say then that we're back at the abortion argument except a) life beginning literally at conception is an especially extreme end of the debate and b) by its own admission, Hobby Lobby was making a decision based on religious, not scientific or business reasoning, meaning it was arguing for a right to force its religious views on its employees. Not to mention the whole "are corporations people?" question.

But now I have picked a specific example and opened myself up to the cherry picking contrarians. I know I won't make any headway here, it's just a perpetual frustration. Gay people getting married is forcing their views on god fearing Americans because... reasons, but refusing to bake them a cake is just exercising a fundamental right to freedom of association, bla bla bla.

PS - Insert obligatory heavy sigh as I point out I lean far more libertarian than liberal.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 09:39:47 AM by Lagom »

rosaz

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1066 on: February 15, 2018, 05:00:55 AM »

Can't speak for the original poster, but that more or less sums it up for me (not the part about relative size of black vs gay populations; thats irrelevant. But inability to purchase a wedding cake from a specific baker is clearly not on par with Jim Crow. Please note I make no assertions as to whether racism is worse than homophobia in 2018, or in 1968. Just that gay people today in the US are obviously not treated as badly as black people were 50 years ago).

As for denying service on the basis of other characteristics - it's fairly routine to do this on the basis of age and sex - think seniors-only housing or nightclub bouncers only letting in ladies. Admittedly analogous examples with race or religion are harder to come by.

As for whether it's ok - I think anyone denying service to a gay couple is a horrible person doing a horrible thing, and if they were nearby, I would boycott them and encourage all my neighbors to do the same. But just because something is not ok does not mean it should be illegal.

What if a business refused to serve white people? Should that be legal?

If we're still talking about baking wedding cakes- then yes, of course. Not morally ok either, but legal, yes.

Would I be upset? Sure. But then I also wasn't thrilled when i found out that the apartment building I really wanted to live in wouldn't let me rent since I'm under 55. Doesn't mean that should be illegal.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1067 on: February 15, 2018, 06:20:01 AM »

Can't speak for the original poster, but that more or less sums it up for me (not the part about relative size of black vs gay populations; thats irrelevant. But inability to purchase a wedding cake from a specific baker is clearly not on par with Jim Crow. Please note I make no assertions as to whether racism is worse than homophobia in 2018, or in 1968. Just that gay people today in the US are obviously not treated as badly as black people were 50 years ago).

As for denying service on the basis of other characteristics - it's fairly routine to do this on the basis of age and sex - think seniors-only housing or nightclub bouncers only letting in ladies. Admittedly analogous examples with race or religion are harder to come by.

As for whether it's ok - I think anyone denying service to a gay couple is a horrible person doing a horrible thing, and if they were nearby, I would boycott them and encourage all my neighbors to do the same. But just because something is not ok does not mean it should be illegal.

What if a business refused to serve white people? Should that be legal?

If we're still talking about baking wedding cakes- then yes, of course. Not morally ok either, but legal, yes.

Would I be upset? Sure. But then I also wasn't thrilled when i found out that the apartment building I really wanted to live in wouldn't let me rent since I'm under 55. Doesn't mean that should be illegal.

Age is only a protected class when you're old. Young people can just get off the lawn.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1068 on: February 15, 2018, 06:55:37 AM »
I know Trump has said a lot of things, but can you show me where he has said he's going to defend discrimination?  I'm looking for something more than a "he said X, but really means Y" since I have trouble following some of those.

No, and I think you're being deliberately obtuse.

Because "religious freedom" in the context of American Christianity is a dog whistle for "right to discriminate." Christianity in America is not, and has never been, under attack in any meaningful way.

The idea that what consenting adults do in their own private space somehow affects a third party's religious life (or secular life, for that matter) is patently absurd. Any argument to the contrary betrays an authoritarian impulse that goes against many of the founding principles of the United States. People fought and died to expand those rights and principles to all people. The desire by a vocal subset of the population to regress is offensive in the extreme.

Basically, if you can't be nice to someone, just shut your face.
Well I disagree, I don't think "religious freedom" = "right to discriminate."  I do think there are places where they overlap, and that requires careful consideration, but there's overlap in a lot of ideas. 

So you don't have a quote?  It seems you're trying to put words into Trump's mouth that fit your opinion of him.

What religious freedom is he referring to when he says he will defend them?

My best understanding:
1) Christian freedoms
2) The freedom to not have to hear about or deal with other religions in the media
3) The freedom to discriminate against others based on your religion
4) The freedom to impose Christian beliefs and messages on others

Things like removing the pledge of allegiance from schools are in no way meant to be an attack on Christianity. School is a public place and some students are not Christian. Saying one nation under God is, in a sense, an attack on their religious freedom, removing it is not an attack on anything. But that's not how people who grew up with Christianity see it. When something has become so ingrained in your view of "normal" I can understand that it's difficult to see the other side (took me a while in terms of religion, I'm sure I still have a long ways to go in other areas) but anyone coming from an alien world with no prior concept of religion would clearly see that it is the Christians in American who are limiting the religious freedoms of others.

(This is not a criticism of all Christians, I'm using the term in context of the argument made by those who feel they are being persecuted.)

The current state of the Pledge of Allegiance is effectively an attack on anyone who doesn't believe in "God."  The phrase "Under God" was added to the pledge in 1954. 

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1069 on: February 15, 2018, 07:59:30 AM »
 
The phrase "Under God" was added to the pledge in 1954.

By McCarthyists, if I remember my history correctly.  So it's not only an attack on people who don't believe in god, it's also an attack on democracy itself.  One of the great ironies of our age, that we literally used the Pledge of Allegiance to attack freedom. 

"One nation with liberty and justice for all" was instead corrupted to sow divisions and suspicions between Americans, by a man on his own vitriolic crusade for personal power.  Sound familiar?

Purely by coincidence (to tie this back to the thread topic) he was also a Republican.
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RidetheRain

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1070 on: February 15, 2018, 09:25:25 AM »
So, I'm kind of on the fence about this topic and I've been meaning to ask a question of someone that takes your position.  Would it be okay, in your view, for me to start a business and then deny my services to someone because of their religion?  How about because of their age?  Or race/sex?  How far does this freedom of association go?  I just feel like if the guy who wouldn't bake a cake for a gay couple walked into my store and was turned away due to his religion he would probably not be okay with it.

Based on what you wrote though, it seems to me like your saying that those with a conservative/libertarian worldview think that anti-discrimination laws are some kind of necessary evil.  That they are not constitutionally sound, but that they are required for certain real-life scenarios that go beyond a certain tipping point like what happened with racial discrimination.  Am I understanding that correctly?

Can't speak for the original poster, but that more or less sums it up for me (not the part about relative size of black vs gay populations; thats irrelevant. But inability to purchase a wedding cake from a specific baker is clearly not on par with Jim Crow. Please note I make no assertions as to whether racism is worse than homophobia in 2018, or in 1968. Just that gay people today in the US are obviously not treated as badly as black people were 50 years ago).

As for denying service on the basis of other characteristics - it's fairly routine to do this on the basis of age and sex - think seniors-only housing or nightclub bouncers only letting in ladies. Admittedly analogous examples with race or religion are harder to come by.

As for whether it's ok - I think anyone denying service to a gay couple is a horrible person doing a horrible thing, and if they were nearby, I would boycott them and encourage all my neighbors to do the same. But just because something is not ok does not mean it should be illegal.

What if a business refused to serve white people? Should that be legal?

I mean, this does happen. Think black frats at colleges. Or, once I walked into a salon and was told they only cut "black" hair. I didn't really take offense because I know that different hair types have different requirements. But the point stands, they definitely denied me service based on my race. I think it's kind of shitty since they still had scissors and would cut black hair after it had been relaxed, but it's not illegal.
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JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1071 on: February 15, 2018, 02:25:01 PM »
So, I'm kind of on the fence about this topic and I've been meaning to ask a question of someone that takes your position.  Would it be okay, in your view, for me to start a business and then deny my services to someone because of their religion?  How about because of their age?  Or race/sex?  How far does this freedom of association go?  I just feel like if the guy who wouldn't bake a cake for a gay couple walked into my store and was turned away due to his religion he would probably not be okay with it.

Based on what you wrote though, it seems to me like your saying that those with a conservative/libertarian worldview think that anti-discrimination laws are some kind of necessary evil.  That they are not constitutionally sound, but that they are required for certain real-life scenarios that go beyond a certain tipping point like what happened with racial discrimination.  Am I understanding that correctly?

Can't speak for the original poster, but that more or less sums it up for me (not the part about relative size of black vs gay populations; thats irrelevant. But inability to purchase a wedding cake from a specific baker is clearly not on par with Jim Crow. Please note I make no assertions as to whether racism is worse than homophobia in 2018, or in 1968. Just that gay people today in the US are obviously not treated as badly as black people were 50 years ago).

As for denying service on the basis of other characteristics - it's fairly routine to do this on the basis of age and sex - think seniors-only housing or nightclub bouncers only letting in ladies. Admittedly analogous examples with race or religion are harder to come by.

As for whether it's ok - I think anyone denying service to a gay couple is a horrible person doing a horrible thing, and if they were nearby, I would boycott them and encourage all my neighbors to do the same. But just because something is not ok does not mean it should be illegal.

What if a business refused to serve white people? Should that be legal?

I mean, this does happen. Think black frats at colleges. Or, once I walked into a salon and was told they only cut "black" hair. I didn't really take offense because I know that different hair types have different requirements. But the point stands, they definitely denied me service based on my race. I think it's kind of shitty since they still had scissors and would cut black hair after it had been relaxed, but it's not illegal.

Fraternities are not businesses - sororities don't accept guys, fraternities don't accept women, etc.

Zamboni

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1072 on: February 15, 2018, 02:53:53 PM »
Less than 10 years ago, I was still a registered Republican. It makes me ill to think I was part of that group.

I kept trying to tell myself, "Well, they are for fiscal responsibility, and balancing budgets, and trimming fat, and encouraging people to be responsible and self-sufficient citizens who contribute positively to society."

But I hated the religious crap. I hated how they treated gay people. I hated their views about women. But I tried to justify my concerns with the stuff above.

And then I just couldn't do it anymore.

I attended a local GOP event around 2009ish. Obama had recently won and the GOPers were pissed off! I sat there dumb-founded at the racist comments. And this was an official meeting! Party leaders and such were there. This was not some loosely organized private citizen event.

I felt like a horrible person just by sitting there.

Sometimes I think back and regret not standing up and leaving, calling them a bunch of racist, theocratic SOBs, but I guess I was curious about how bad things would get, so I stayed. In a way, maybe it was a good thing that I stayed. It made my decision more clear every minute I listened. I vowed to myself that I would leave the party (which I did within days).

I did not swing to Democrat. I went independent, but I pretty much always vote for Dems now, as there is rarely a viable third option. And then I read today about Sean Hannity tweeting that President Obama's portrait was "too sexy" and I think to myself...the Republicans are freaking INSANE!!!

INSANE!! I don't know what else to say about them. It's like they aren't attached to reality. Trump pushes evangelical bullshit while knowing (he HAD to know!) that his lawyer paid $130K to some porn star he banged?? I will add "EVIL af" to INSANE!!

Let me calm down.

Okay I am good.

This is pretty much how it went down for me as well, although I left the Republican party before Obama's election.

I find that I now disagree with almost every single policy the Republicans enact. They are not fiscally responsible at all . . . I don't know if they ever were, but that was my draw to the party in the first place. It certainly is now a myth. I've always been liberal on social issues, but I tried to see the conservative viewpoint since I had good friends who were socially conservative. The older I get, the more that viewpoint just looks like plain old fashioned bigotry.

MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1073 on: February 15, 2018, 02:58:06 PM »
*snip*

This is pretty much how it went down for me as well, although I left the Republican party before Obama's election.

I find that I now disagree with almost every single policy the Republicans enact. They are not fiscally responsible at all . . . I don't know if they ever were, but that was my draw to the party in the first place. It certainly is now a myth. I've always been liberal on social issues, but I tried to see the conservative viewpoint since I had good friends who were socially conservative. The older I get, the more that viewpoint just looks like plain old fashioned bigotry.
It seems to me that whoever is not in control is the fiscally responsible party.

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1074 on: February 15, 2018, 04:54:39 PM »
I find that I now disagree with almost every single policy the Republicans enact. They are not fiscally responsible at all . . . I don't know if they ever were, but that was my draw to the party in the first place. It certainly is now a myth. I've always been liberal on social issues, but I tried to see the conservative viewpoint since I had good friends who were socially conservative. The older I get, the more that viewpoint just looks like plain old fashioned bigotry.

What the democratic party needs, IMO, is for people like you to speak up and get involved.  They've spent too many years being reactionary against bad republican policies that I think they've forgotten how to build a willing coalition of centrists.  There is certainly room for everyone, in a party willing to embrace good ideas from all sides instead of clinging to decades-old culture wars.
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talltexan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1075 on: February 16, 2018, 06:50:42 AM »
*snip*

This is pretty much how it went down for me as well, although I left the Republican party before Obama's election.

I find that I now disagree with almost every single policy the Republicans enact. They are not fiscally responsible at all . . . I don't know if they ever were, but that was my draw to the party in the first place. It certainly is now a myth. I've always been liberal on social issues, but I tried to see the conservative viewpoint since I had good friends who were socially conservative. The older I get, the more that viewpoint just looks like plain old fashioned bigotry.
It seems to me that whoever is not in control is the fiscally responsible party.

Thank you, yes!

asiljoy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1076 on: February 16, 2018, 07:42:37 AM »
*snip*

This is pretty much how it went down for me as well, although I left the Republican party before Obama's election.

I find that I now disagree with almost every single policy the Republicans enact. They are not fiscally responsible at all . . . I don't know if they ever were, but that was my draw to the party in the first place. It certainly is now a myth. I've always been liberal on social issues, but I tried to see the conservative viewpoint since I had good friends who were socially conservative. The older I get, the more that viewpoint just looks like plain old fashioned bigotry.
It seems to me that whoever is not in control is the fiscally responsible party.

Thank you, yes!

Point of differentiation. The current tax plan gives welfare to corporations and the rich, whereas in the past the focus has been on growing the middle class through investment in education, health services, veterans affairs, and infrastructure spending that actually built things. How you spend money matters.

Bucksandreds

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1077 on: February 16, 2018, 07:50:49 AM »
An answer to the OPs question. If one doesn’t regret voting republican today then they’re either rich and selfish or an absolute idiot. 90% of people who voted Trump are just absolute idiots.

Milizard

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1078 on: February 16, 2018, 07:59:04 AM »
An answer to the OPs question. If one doesn’t regret voting republican today then they’re either rich and selfish or an absolute idiot. 90% of people who voted Trump are just absolute idiots.

You missed the group that claim to be "Christian", but display no real understanding of the teachings of Jesus.

MasterStache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1079 on: February 16, 2018, 08:27:19 AM »
*snip*

This is pretty much how it went down for me as well, although I left the Republican party before Obama's election.

I find that I now disagree with almost every single policy the Republicans enact. They are not fiscally responsible at all . . . I don't know if they ever were, but that was my draw to the party in the first place. It certainly is now a myth. I've always been liberal on social issues, but I tried to see the conservative viewpoint since I had good friends who were socially conservative. The older I get, the more that viewpoint just looks like plain old fashioned bigotry.
It seems to me that whoever is not in control is the fiscally responsible party.

Thank you, yes!

Point of differentiation. The current tax plan gives welfare to corporations and the rich, whereas in the past the focus has been on growing the middle class through investment in education, health services, veterans affairs, and infrastructure spending that actually built things. How you spend money matters.

+1

Although both parties spend well beyond their means, I'll give the Dems credit for at least directing funds to where it's needed most.

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1080 on: February 16, 2018, 08:42:15 AM »
Although both parties spend well beyond their means, I'll give the Dems credit for at least directing funds to where it's needed most.

This is the central theme of the democratic party, and it frustrates me that they articulate it so poorly that republicans control the entire government. 

Democrats want your government to help you.  They want it to protect your freedoms and give you opportunities.  They want better jobs and wages, better educations, affordable healthcare, a better environment, and a stronger economy that actually helps everyone, instead of the privileged few at the top of the pyramid.  They have historically spent your tax dollars on trying to help you.

Republicans are the party of big business and the rich minority.  They seemingly want to shit all over America so that the richest Americans can get even more money than they already have.  They have spent your tax dollars on failed economic policies, undermining education, tearing apart our healthcare system, rolling back environmental protections, and making businesses more profitable at the expense of the workers.  And yet we continue to vote for these self destructive policies, because so many of us have been riled up about abortion or guns or whatever.  Republicans are appealing to our basest instincts in order to dismantle everything that is great about America, and we willingly help them do it.  Because Jesus!
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MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1081 on: February 16, 2018, 09:12:14 AM »
An answer to the OPs question. If one doesn’t regret voting republican today then they’re either rich and selfish or an absolute idiot. 90% of people who voted Trump are just absolute idiots.
I guess you got me pegged.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1082 on: February 16, 2018, 09:21:30 AM »
Although both parties spend well beyond their means, I'll give the Dems credit for at least directing funds to where it's needed most.

This is the central theme of the democratic party, and it frustrates me that they articulate it so poorly that republicans control the entire government. 

Democrats want your government to help you.  They want it to protect your freedoms and give you opportunities.  They want better jobs and wages, better educations, affordable healthcare, a better environment, and a stronger economy that actually helps everyone, instead of the privileged few at the top of the pyramid.  They have historically spent your tax dollars on trying to help you.


Many Democrats want your government to help you, and have been hijacked by politicians who want money and power.  The want to abuse the power of government to restrict your freedoms and opportunities, as all authoritarians want to do.  They use the message of better jobs and wages, better educations, affordable healthcare, a better environment, and a stronger economy, to lure otherwise good people into supporting their quest for power while providing none of those things.  They regularly instigate class warfare tactics to further shift blame from their own failed policies and onto the faceless privileged few.  They have historically spent your tax dollars bribing the laziest among us to vote for them, under cover of helping the less fortunate to trick the bleeding hearts into ignoring their authoritarianism.


What the democratic party needs, IMO, is for people like you to speak up and get involved.  They've spent too many years being reactionary against bad republican policies that I think they've forgotten how to build a willing coalition of centrists.  There is certainly room for everyone, in a party willing to embrace good ideas from all sides instead of clinging to decades-old culture wars.

Success!  Welcome to the train of thought that will eventually lead you to realize "people like you" aren't welcome in the Democratic party by design, they were specifically kicked out, and that it is about 40 years past the time when we should have had four parties, the GOP and Democrats on the far end, and two centrist parties in control, one that wants to be fiscally responsible but do evil conservative type stuff like "not spend money we don't have" and one that wants to be fiscally responsible but do bleeding heart stuff like "feed the starving" or "pay people who don't feel like working."  We can park the religious right off to the side out of the way, and the whacko-communist-libtards off to the left, and MAGA.

Right now, if "people like you" speak up, nope, that idea you just talked about?  Code for racist homophobe, GTFO.
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GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1083 on: February 16, 2018, 10:01:24 AM »
The democrats are somewhat right of center, and the republicans are a bit further right.  Going to the middle between them would make another right wing party.

Americans would freak the fuck out if they found out how left some political parties in the rest of the world are.

partgypsy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1084 on: February 16, 2018, 11:27:04 AM »
I am socially progressive and consider myself fiscally conservative (moderate). One of the biggest differences I had with Obama is how much spending for defense he had, also the delayed closing of Guantanomo bay. So in some ways I feel neither party is good at reining in a huge chunk of spending (Defense) when we are far out of line with any other country on earth in the amount of money we spend, no matter how you slice it. And I would have totally been on board with universal coverage of healthcare, which in other countries has delivered better outcomes, with less cost per individual, than our current set-up. It would actually help with our deficit. So while I vote Democrat I don't see a party that exactly lines up with my views either.

I find whoever called the Democratic party "wacko communist lib-tards" laughable.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 11:28:37 AM by partgypsy »

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1085 on: February 16, 2018, 01:36:06 PM »

This fascinates me. Only minorities who have achieved a certain numerical size deserve protection against discrimination?  Really?  What percentage of the population does a minority have to reach to be protected?

Also, lets not get into "the discrimination against me is worse than the discrimination against you", hmmm?   If the discriminatory treatment fails the legal standard (even for gays, even for cake) it becomes irrelevant that there is a different level of discrimination against someone else.  Assault is not legal just because it's not murder.
The argument is that the anti-discrimination laws are overly broad, so your second point is not really relevant.

As for the first, the Civil Rights Era was a really big deal. It involved huge contentious divisions, massive riots, marching the army into the South (again), and opening the door to all sorts of federal overexpansion. If you're going to go through all that, it has to be for a good reason.

You are trying to change your argument.  You quite clearly based your earlier argument that Blacks deserve protection against discrimination whereas gays don't on 1) the size of the minority and 2) the level of discrimination.  Here's your quote -

. Blacks are a huge chunk of the population across a huge geographic area, and their treatment was really, really bad. Homosexuals in America are a substantially smaller portion and don't face anything like the discrimination blacks faced, outside of certain communities, and the inability to get a wedding cake is pretty small potatoes.

You are now making the argument that "anti-discrimination laws are overly broad".  You appear to have abandoned the proposition that whether a minority deserves protection depends in principle on the size of that minority.  (This is good: would Blacks have not deserved protection if they were only 1% of the population?)  You also appear to have abandoned to a certain extent the notion that protection depends on the scale of the harm done, as you seem to be saying that protection does not differ depending on whether the harm is assault or murder.  Your remaining argument appears to be not one of principle (whether protecting against discrimination is a good thing or not) but that the backlash against providing that protection may mean that the harm caused is greater than the benefit.

Really?  You think that the chance of toddler tantrums by straight white people mean that non-white, non-straight people should not have the protection of the law against discrimination?  That's your argument?    Nothing to do with principle?  Nothing to do with what's right?  Just: the straight white people are going to unlawfully resist democratic laws enacted to protect historically and currrently oppressed people so lets not bother enacting those laws?

You're looking at it from the wrong POV. Federal government actions are inherently distasteful, but justifiable on a utilitarian basis. The existence of Jim Crow produces more negative utils than the discrimination that exists against homosexuals in 2017, which makes federal action against Jim Crow much more appealing than trying to stop discrimination against homosexuals.

Just take the US out of it and look at a hypothetical foreign policy scenario. The Tutsi minority in Rwanda has decided for some pay-back and has launched a genocidal campaign against the Hutu majority. Meanwhile, in Iraq, the Shi'a majority in Baghdad is waging an ethnic cleansing campaign to somewhat aggressively remove whatever small Yazdi community remains.

In Rwanda, the US is practically compelled to intervene. There are X million Hutus with nowhere to go, and they are going to die if no one does anything.

In Iraq, the Yazdi are less numerous than the Hutu (X thousand), and they aren't going to get killed: some will, but for the most part they will flee to the Kurdish zone. In that situation, the argument for intervention is a lot weaker.

The disagreement that most people would have on this thread is "federal action is inherently distasteful," and would instead look at federal action as something no different than drinking a bottle of water or looking at a cloud.

Quote

I find whoever called the Democratic party "wacko communist lib-tards" laughable.

If anyone has gone extreme over the last few cycles, it's been the GOP. Today's GOP is significantly further afield from what it was, even in 2004-2006.

Dems are pretty much the same but have been dragged to the Left a bit.

I expect the Dems to get dragged much further Left over the coming cycles, though.

Milizard

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1086 on: February 16, 2018, 01:42:12 PM »
+1 to the last 3 posts
I would say that the democratic party has been stretched lately.  It's been dragged to the left socially, but pushed to the right fiscally.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1087 on: February 16, 2018, 02:58:46 PM »
Americans would freak the fuck out if they found out how left some political parties in the rest of the world are.

Universal health care AND a fraction of the gun violence???
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GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1088 on: February 16, 2018, 03:06:46 PM »
Americans would freak the fuck out if they found out how left some political parties in the rest of the world are.

Universal health care AND a fraction of the gun violence???

Agreed, it's a socialist hell.

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1089 on: February 16, 2018, 07:03:30 PM »
Dems are pretty much the same but have been dragged to the Left a bit.

I expect the Dems to get dragged much further Left over the coming cycles, though.

I think there's a ferocious debate about this topic right now, though it's mostly out of the public eye.

On the one hand you have people like Cheri Bustos, a Democrat from IL who won a landslide election in Trump country by appealing to the center.  She argues that the Republican brand has been so toxic that Democrats can reclaim the national majority by avoiding wedge issues like abortion and focusing on things like jobs and the economy, which appeal to everyone.  She's one of the people the Democratic Party put in charge of party strategy.  She's adopted the old GOP strategy of "growing the tent" to make room for people who don't necessarily agree on every issue, but can at least agree the Democrats should be in charge and the Republicans shouldn't.

On the other hand you have people like Bernie Sanders, who isn't even a Democrat, who argues that voters aren't energized by middle-of-the-road safe policies.  Obama won by starting a movement.  Trump won by starting a movement.  Ordinary safe boring politicians get ignored, so people like Sanders and party vice chair Keith Ellison have argued that the path to power for Democrats is to move left.  They want bold policies designed to solve real problems, like universal healthcare.  They make splashy speeches, and Bernie draws HUGE crowds by being outspokenly left of center. 

The problem here is that the national party is basically trying to accommodate BOTH of these strategies, where they seem practical.  Centrists can win in PA and aren't going to lose CA as a result.  Bold socialist ideas were almost as popular in Trump country as were Trump's white persecution policies, and for similar reasons.  But the result of this mixed message is that if you put 100 congressional Democrats in a room, they won't really agree on what it means to be a Democrat.  If the politicians can't agree on what the party stands for, why would we expect voters to have any idea what the party stands for?

The Republicans, by contrast, had a consistent message.  After they lost everything in 2008, they unified behind simple ideas like tax cuts for the rich and "repeal and replace" of Obamacare, and they basically ignored everything else.  Even Republicans who didn't necessarily agree with those policies publicly parroted them for the cameras, and the appearance of unity was attractive to voters because it was simplistic.  The central unifying vision of the party was to oppose everything Obama wanted (healthcare, stimulus, gay rights, national parks, equal pay for women, you name it) and it didn't matter if a particular Republican congressperson actually agreed with Obama, they publicly had to fall in lock step.  That lock step led them to recapture every branch of government and gave them complete control over all aspects of America.  They rule the world today.

Democrats lack that kind of discipline, nationally.  They let individual elected officials represent their home districts, which of course cover a wide range of the spectrum, and the blue dog caucus and the hispanic caucus and progressive caucus are each allowed to promote their own ideas within the party.  That's good small-r republican representation, which is great, but it doesn't win national elections.
sol will be totally offline for most of June 2018.  You cannot reach me.  You will not hear from me.  I am not dead, just away from civilization.

MDM

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1090 on: June 04, 2018, 11:08:29 AM »
Full text of the Supreme Court decision in the Colorado cake case: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-111_j4el.pdf.

Plenty of grist for mills of various opinions.

ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1091 on: June 04, 2018, 02:20:37 PM »
Full text of the Supreme Court decision in the Colorado cake case: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-111_j4el.pdf.

Plenty of grist for mills of various opinions.

Seems like the issue was that the commission who reviewed the complaint in Colorado was openly hostile to the religious dimension of the refusal of service...and treated the case differently because it was a religious objection. 

Quote
Still, the delicate question of
when the free exercise of his religion must yield to an
otherwise valid exercise of state power needed to be determined
in an adjudication in which religious hostility on
the part of the State itself would not be a factor in the
balance the State sought to reach.
That requirement,
however, was not met here. When the Colorado Civil
Rights Commission considered this case, it did not do
so with the religious neutrality that the Constitution
requires
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 02:26:21 PM by ncornilsen »