Author Topic: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?  (Read 107157 times)

jrhampt

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1000 on: February 11, 2018, 05:59:22 PM »
see Trump. No one refused to sell him a wedding cake because he cheated on his prior wives).

This is the part about the baker's defense that I always had an issue with.  You previously committed adultery? You get a cake. This is your 2nd marriage? You get a cake. You just lied about something? You get a cake.  You guys had sex before marriage? You get a cake. Your gay? I must stand on my principles and no cake for you. Seems it's not all sin the baker hated. Just the one.

You hit the nail on the head for me. Also applies to many religious principles for me. A person can be all sorts "sinful" things in 2018 and still be a good, god fearing Christian but they better not be gay. -eyes rolling-

Yeah. And you can deny people the basic ability to purchase your products in the name of your religion and believe that doing so actually makes you a good Christian, ignoring the fact that Jesus consorted with all sorts and extended fellowship to criminals and adulterers, with no strings attached.

And prostitutes!

calimom

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1001 on: February 12, 2018, 02:33:54 AM »
see Trump. No one refused to sell him a wedding cake because he cheated on his prior wives).

This is the part about the baker's defense that I always had an issue with.  You previously committed adultery? You get a cake. This is your 2nd marriage? You get a cake. You just lied about something? You get a cake.  You guys had sex before marriage? You get a cake. Your gay? I must stand on my principles and no cake for you. Seems it's not all sin the baker hated. Just the one.

You hit the nail on the head for me. Also applies to many religious principles for me. A person can be all sorts "sinful" things in 2018 and still be a good, god fearing Christian but they better not be gay. -eyes rolling-

Yeah. And you can deny people the basic ability to purchase your products in the name of your religion and believe that doing so actually makes you a good Christian, ignoring the fact that Jesus consorted with all sorts and extended fellowship to criminals and adulterers, with no strings attached.

And prostitutes!

Yes, somehow it's completely acceptable for them to beat their wives and defile their way through the Ten Commandments but a woman doing what she wants with her own body, or a loving gay couple sealing their union, well let's all just have a big meltdown.

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1002 on: February 12, 2018, 07:31:27 AM »
see Trump. No one refused to sell him a wedding cake because he cheated on his prior wives).

This is the part about the baker's defense that I always had an issue with.  You previously committed adultery? You get a cake. This is your 2nd marriage? You get a cake. You just lied about something? You get a cake.  You guys had sex before marriage? You get a cake. Your gay? I must stand on my principles and no cake for you. Seems it's not all sin the baker hated. Just the one.

You hit the nail on the head for me. Also applies to many religious principles for me. A person can be all sorts "sinful" things in 2018 and still be a good, god fearing Christian but they better not be gay. -eyes rolling-

Yeah. And you can deny people the basic ability to purchase your products in the name of your religion and believe that doing so actually makes you a good Christian, ignoring the fact that Jesus consorted with all sorts and extended fellowship to criminals and adulterers, with no strings attached.

And prostitutes!

Yes, somehow it's completely acceptable for them to beat their wives and defile their way through the Ten Commandments but a woman doing what she wants with her own body, or a loving gay couple sealing their union, well let's all just have a big meltdown.

What's very strange is that there isn't anything in the bible the explicitly condemns being gay either . . . while stuff like the 10 commandments is spelled out quite clearly.  So, it's not even a tenant of the religion to be hateful to gay people, just something that many Christians feel happy to do.

jrhampt

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1003 on: February 12, 2018, 07:58:28 AM »
I can actually think of several verses in both the old and new testaments that are anti-homosexuality.  I disagree with them, but they’re definitely there.

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1004 on: February 12, 2018, 08:13:03 AM »
I can actually think of several verses in both the old and new testaments that are anti-homosexuality.  I disagree with them, but they’re definitely there.

I've never understood why anyone would point to the bible as justification for anything.  The bible is pro-slavery and anti-democracy.  The bible forbids trimming your beard and eating shellfish.  The bible says that if your daughter refuses to marry her rapist, you should stone her to death (not him, her).  The bible is a seriously fucked up place to look for your moral compass.

And I don't even mean that as a criticism!  It was written in a different time, by people for whom these rules seemed normal and acceptable.  We hadn't yet invented bread that rises, and people think it has something relevant to say about the civil rights movement?

But societies progress over time.  We figure stuff out, we change our ways and most people accept that we have changed them for the better.  It just seems silly to latch on to particular anachronism while ignoring all of the others.  You have to look at the totality, in context.  In that light, it's an interesting piece of history but not exactly a useful reference text.

jrhampt

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1005 on: February 12, 2018, 08:15:03 AM »
I can actually think of several verses in both the old and new testaments that are anti-homosexuality.  I disagree with them, but they’re definitely there.

I've never understood why anyone would point to the bible as justification for anything.  The bible is pro-slavery and anti-democracy.  The bible forbids trimming your beard and eating shellfish.  The bible says that if your daughter refuses to marry her rapist, you should stone her to death (not him, her).  The bible is a seriously fucked up place to look for your moral compass.

And I don't even mean that as a criticism!  It was written in a different time, by people for whom these rules seemed normal and acceptable.  We hadn't yet invented bread that rises, and people think it has something relevant to say about the civil rights movement?

But societies progress over time.  We figure stuff out, we change our ways and most people accept that we have changed them for the better.  It just seems silly to latch on to particular anachronism while ignoring all of the others.  You have to look at the totality, in context.  In that light, it's an interesting piece of history but not exactly a useful reference text.

Agreed.

e34bb098

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1006 on: February 12, 2018, 08:21:58 AM »
We hadn't yet invented bread that rises, and people think it has something relevant to say about the civil rights movement?

Not that I disagree with your overall point, but a central theme of the Exodus story is not having enough time to wait for the bread to rise.

partgypsy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1007 on: February 12, 2018, 08:51:47 AM »
We hadn't yet invented bread that rises, and people think it has something relevant to say about the civil rights movement?

Not that I disagree with your overall point, but a central theme of the Exodus story is not having enough time to wait for the bread to rise.

yes supposedly leavened bread was invented in Egypt, 200 bc.

Just Joe

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1008 on: February 12, 2018, 10:25:27 AM »
So, this dude’s totally okay, right? I mean, it’s just food. They can obviously just go somewhere else.

http://myfox8.com/2014/02/07/oklahoma-restaurant-owners-says-he-wont-serve-gay-or-black-customers/

He's getting plenty of attention on the web. Apparently some folks are taunting him by listing his restaurant as a gay bar. Others are just leaving bad reviews. Karma if nothing else. 

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1009 on: February 13, 2018, 07:10:53 AM »
We hadn't yet invented bread that rises, and people think it has something relevant to say about the civil rights movement?

Not that I disagree with your overall point, but a central theme of the Exodus story is not having enough time to wait for the bread to rise.

yes supposedly leavened bread was invented in Egypt, 200 bc.
 

Bad news: the bible was already old hat in 200 bc.  Especially the sections relevant to this discussion.

Dabnasty

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1010 on: February 13, 2018, 07:39:54 AM »
We hadn't yet invented bread that rises, and people think it has something relevant to say about the civil rights movement?

Not that I disagree with your overall point, but a central theme of the Exodus story is not having enough time to wait for the bread to rise.

yes supposedly leavened bread was invented in Egypt, 200 bc.
 

Bad news: the bible was already old hat in 200 bc.  Especially the sections relevant to this discussion.

So now that this is a discussion of when leavened bread was invented, according to Wikipedia by 200 bc, breads had already expanded to cakes and pastries and commercial yeast was being produced. The oldest known sourdough dates from 3700 bc Switzerland.

ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1011 on: February 13, 2018, 08:11:05 AM »
I skimmed the above, and don't beleive I've seen the following point made clearly.

Here's where it comes down for me, on the whole gay cake thing. I imagine the reaction by some people will be outrage, as they seem to be unable to grasp nuance of thought and can only process position statements of 140 characters or less... but none the less.

-If you're selling tires, computer mice, or pens, refusing to serve someone because they are gay is immoral and wrong, and rightly illegal.

-Refusing to sell a cake off the shelf, or that says something like "congratulations" to someone who is gay, is immoral and wrong, and rightly illegal.
 
-Reusing to sell a cake, quoting leviticus, doxxing the gay couple, is immoral and wrong, and rightly resulted in that Oregon bakery getting fined to death.

Where is gets fuzzy for me when you ask for a custom commissioned piece of (cake) art, that is specifically designed to celebrate a gay wedding.  If you're a (cake) artist, why shouldn't you have a right to say no if it's against what you believe, as misguided as that belief may be?
Artists, I believe, can and do refuse commissions all the time. There's a difference between refusing to sell a tire/sandwhich/computer mouse to a gay person, and refusing a commission for a 4ft tall double-penis cake with a "Anyone who touches this cake supports gay marraige!" sign sculpted into the fondant.

Suppose I wanted a swastika cake, or wanted a gay baker to make a cake that says "Trump is the best, and anyone who touches this cake endorses him 100%!"   You might respond that "gay people are a protected class, trump supporters aren't."  Well, now we're talking about what is legal and illegal, not what is necessarily right and wrong. There's plenty of room to have this discussion about that without calling those you disagree with hateful. 

I think you'd have to be an idiot to refuse making a cake for gay couples, both for the loss of business and the social blowback.  Regardless of my support for gay marriage, I don't like the idea that its OK to compel artists to do things they don't agree with, with the force of law. I hope you can see how that precedent may be a bad one to set, when an artist is forced to make something for a cause the left doesn't agree with.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 08:16:31 AM by ncornilsen »

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1012 on: February 13, 2018, 08:14:07 AM »
So now that this is a discussion of when leavened bread was invented, according to Wikipedia by 200 bc, breads had already expanded to cakes and pastries and commercial yeast was being produced. The oldest known sourdough dates from 3700 bc Switzerland.

Well this TOTALLY clears it up for me, thanks.  It's absolutely fine to discriminate against gay people because cake rises, and the bible clearly backs me up on this issue.  Wikipedia verifies what we all know in our hearts. 

ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1013 on: February 13, 2018, 08:18:51 AM »
So now that this is a discussion of when leavened bread was invented, according to Wikipedia by 200 bc, breads had already expanded to cakes and pastries and commercial yeast was being produced. The oldest known sourdough dates from 3700 bc Switzerland.

Well this TOTALLY clears it up for me, thanks.  It's absolutely fine to discriminate against gay people because cake rises, and the bible clearly backs me up on this issue.  Wikipedia verifies what we all know in our hearts.

(thick southern accent)  The cake rises to Je-sus.

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1014 on: February 13, 2018, 08:30:49 AM »
Regardless of my support for gay marriage, I don't like the idea that its OK to compel artists to do things they don't agree with

The artist wasn't asked to do something he disagreed with.  He wasn't asked to make a penis cake.  He refused to make any cake, of any kind, because the customer was gay.  That's why the "artist" defense isn't going to hold up, IMO.

And as a secondary point, separate from that, an artist has a right to refuse a commission in many cases where a business does not have the right to refuse a sale.  A business is not a person.  A business that is open to the public is not legally permitted to be racist, or sexist, or ageist, in the same way that an ordinary private citizen bigot is permitted to be racist or sexist or ageist.

Can you image a McDonald's cashier refusing to take your order because you were black, or were wearing a yarmulke, or were in a wheelchair?  That's basically what happened in this case, and I think the state was right to drop the hammer.

partgypsy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1015 on: February 13, 2018, 08:33:34 AM »
I skimmed the above, and don't beleive I've seen the following point made clearly.

Here's where it comes down for me, on the whole gay cake thing. I imagine the reaction by some people will be outrage, as they seem to be unable to grasp nuance of thought and can only process position statements of 140 characters or less... but none the less.

-If you're selling tires, computer mice, or pens, refusing to serve someone because they are gay is immoral and wrong, and rightly illegal.

-Refusing to sell a cake off the shelf, or that says something like "congratulations" to someone who is gay, is immoral and wrong, and rightly illegal.
 
-Reusing to sell a cake, quoting leviticus, doxxing the gay couple, is immoral and wrong, and rightly resulted in that Oregon bakery getting fined to death.

Where is gets fuzzy for me when you ask for a custom commissioned piece of (cake) art, that is specifically designed to celebrate a gay wedding.  If you're a (cake) artist, why shouldn't you have a right to say no if it's against what you believe, as misguided as that belief may be?
Artists, I believe, can and do refuse commissions all the time. There's a difference between refusing to sell a tire/sandwhich/computer mouse to a gay person, and refusing a commission for a 4ft tall double-penis cake with a "Anyone who touches this cake supports gay marraige!" sign sculpted into the fondant.

Suppose I wanted a swastika cake, or wanted a gay baker to make a cake that says "Trump is the best, and anyone who touches this cake endorses him 100%!"   You might respond that "gay people are a protected class, trump supporters aren't."  Well, now we're talking about what is legal and illegal, not what is necessarily right and wrong. There's plenty of room to have this discussion about that without calling those you disagree with hateful. 

I think you'd have to be an idiot to refuse making a cake for gay couples, both for the loss of business and the social blowback.  Regardless of my support for gay marriage, I don't like the idea that its OK to compel artists to do things they don't agree with, with the force of law. I hope you can see how that precedent may be a bad one to set, when an artist is forced to make something for a cause the left doesn't agree with.

And I agree with you. If someone is an artist, they can refuse to do commissioned work, or "art". It will be up to the courts to determine at what point say putting someone's names on a cake constitutes art or not. I also wonder, what would happen if the gay couple orders a fancy but traditional wedding cake, and is refused because it is a) an obvious wedding cake and b) for a gay couple. For example the baker has made many cakes with white chocolate foudant covered with cascades of tiny roses made of icing for other customers, Has no problem with that kind of cake or that kind of decoration. BUT- he doesn't want to make THAT kind of cake, for a gay couple. Would that also go under the being able to refused commissioned work?
From what I read for the Masterpiece cake shop, they never got to the point of discussing what was going to go onto the cake, the actual "craft" part. Once he found out it was for a gay wedding, that's when the refusal happened.



Bottom line. Now that we have things like civil rights acts, and women being able to work and all, the wedge issues that the Republican party are getting more silly. I mean that's why I moved away from the Church. You have church goers who find it perfectly OK or even preferable to elect someone like Roy Moore, a self-declared Christian who has done despicable things, using their position of power to abuse minors, as well as the rule of law, over a person with morals and ethics like Doug Jones. Or the evangelicals who elected Trump. I can understand some libertarian white male LOVING Trump because he's all about money and power and grabbing as much as you can, while having no protections for people who are vulnerable. But I don't understand why evangelicals are lining up behind Trump when he is in opposition of Christian values, I mean he literally exemplifies it, in how he lives his life, and what things come out of his mouth. and yet he's their leader.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 08:50:51 AM by partgypsy »

MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1016 on: February 13, 2018, 08:37:34 AM »
Regardless of my support for gay marriage, I don't like the idea that its OK to compel artists to do things they don't agree with

The artist wasn't asked to do something he disagreed with.  He wasn't asked to make a penis cake.  He refused to make any cake, of any kind, because the customer was gay.  That's why the "artist" defense isn't going to hold up, IMO.

And as a secondary point, separate from that, an artist has a right to refuse a commission in many cases where a business does not have the right to refuse a sale.  A business is not a person.  A business that is open to the public is not legally permitted to be racist, or sexist, or ageist, in the same way that an ordinary private citizen bigot is permitted to be racist or sexist or ageist.

Can you image a McDonald's cashier refusing to take your order because you were black, or were wearing a yarmulke, or were in a wheelchair?  That's basically what happened in this case, and I think the state was right to drop the hammer.
I think he was talking in general, not on whatever specific case you guys have been talking about.  The original cake story I heard was about personalizing a cake, or at least that's how it was portrayed to me. 

He also said:
Quote
-Refusing to sell a cake off the shelf, or that says something like "congratulations" to someone who is gay, is immoral and wrong, and rightly illegal.

Anyway, thanks for the back and forth on this topic, I have learned a lot :)


ncornilsen

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1017 on: February 13, 2018, 09:19:53 AM »
I skimmed the above, and don't beleive I've seen the following point made clearly.

Here's where it comes down for me, on the whole gay cake thing. I imagine the reaction by some people will be outrage, as they seem to be unable to grasp nuance of thought and can only process position statements of 140 characters or less... but none the less.

-If you're selling tires, computer mice, or pens, refusing to serve someone because they are gay is immoral and wrong, and rightly illegal.

-Refusing to sell a cake off the shelf, or that says something like "congratulations" to someone who is gay, is immoral and wrong, and rightly illegal.
 
-Reusing to sell a cake, quoting leviticus, doxxing the gay couple, is immoral and wrong, and rightly resulted in that Oregon bakery getting fined to death.

Where is gets fuzzy for me when you ask for a custom commissioned piece of (cake) art, that is specifically designed to celebrate a gay wedding.  If you're a (cake) artist, why shouldn't you have a right to say no if it's against what you believe, as misguided as that belief may be?
Artists, I believe, can and do refuse commissions all the time. There's a difference between refusing to sell a tire/sandwhich/computer mouse to a gay person, and refusing a commission for a 4ft tall double-penis cake with a "Anyone who touches this cake supports gay marraige!" sign sculpted into the fondant.

Suppose I wanted a swastika cake, or wanted a gay baker to make a cake that says "Trump is the best, and anyone who touches this cake endorses him 100%!"   You might respond that "gay people are a protected class, trump supporters aren't."  Well, now we're talking about what is legal and illegal, not what is necessarily right and wrong. There's plenty of room to have this discussion about that without calling those you disagree with hateful. 

I think you'd have to be an idiot to refuse making a cake for gay couples, both for the loss of business and the social blowback.  Regardless of my support for gay marriage, I don't like the idea that its OK to compel artists to do things they don't agree with, with the force of law. I hope you can see how that precedent may be a bad one to set, when an artist is forced to make something for a cause the left doesn't agree with.

And I agree with you. If someone is an artist, they can refuse to do commissioned work, or "art". It will be up to the courts to determine at what point say putting someone's names on a cake constitutes art or not. I also wonder, what would happen if the gay couple orders a fancy but traditional wedding cake, and is refused because it is a) an obvious wedding cake and b) for a gay couple. For example the baker has made many cakes with white chocolate foudant covered with cascades of tiny roses made of icing for other customers, Has no problem with that kind of cake or that kind of decoration. BUT- he doesn't want to make THAT kind of cake, for a gay couple. Would that also go under the being able to refused commissioned work?


The test is something along the lines of this:  If one person came into the bakery and ordered that cake, and it could plausibly be used in a non-gay wedding, then refusing to make it is wrong. Names are excluded - the way people use names, marrying a "Harold and Taylor" could go either way.   This would differentiate between the penis cake and the custom cascading roses cake.

Quote
From what I read for the Masterpiece cake shop, they never got to the point of discussing what was going to go onto the cake, the actual "craft" part. Once he found out it was for a gay wedding, that's when the refusal happened.

In this case, the baker was in the wrong.

Bottom line. Now that we have things like civil rights acts, and women being able to work and all, the wedge issues that the Republican party are getting more silly. I mean that's why I moved away from the Church. You have church goers who find it perfectly OK or even preferable to elect someone like Roy Moore, a self-declared Christian who has done despicable things, using their position of power to abuse minors, as well as the rule of law, over a person with morals and ethics like Doug Jones. Or the evangelicals who elected Trump. I can understand some libertarian white male LOVING Trump because he's all about money and power and grabbing as much as you can, while having no protections for people who are vulnerable. But I don't understand why evangelicals are lining up behind Trump when he is in opposition of Christian values, I mean he literally exemplifies it, in how he lives his life, and what things come out of his mouth. and yet he's their leader.
[/quote]

I am similarly confused about all the memes that show trump with some line about "Support this godly man against the forces of evil... 1 like = 1 prayer, 1 share=100 prayers!!!1!!"    Trump is a lot of things, Godly is not one of them.

As for implying that republicans are against civil rights and women working... really? Go look who voted for and against civil rights, for oen thing. We might be against some heavy handed proposals to make different groups look more equal without actually improving thier lot, but I'd say that's better than the soft racism of low expectations.

zoltani

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1018 on: February 13, 2018, 10:10:25 AM »
"Charlie Craig and David Mullins visited Masterpiece on July 19, 2012, expecting to buy a wedding cake to celebrate their upcoming marriage. Phillips advised them that he would be happy to make and sell them any other baked goods. Craig and Mullins immediately left without discussing any details of their cake. The entire incident was about 20 seconds long.

The following day, Craig’s mother, Deborah Munn, called Phillips, who said he doesn’t make wedding cakes for same-sex weddings because of his religious beliefs and because Colorado law did not recognize same-sex marriage at the time. Despite obtaining a free wedding cake with a rainbow design from another bakery, Craig and Mullins filed a charge of discrimination with the Colorado Civil Rights Division under the Colorado Anti-Discrimination Act (CADA), which prohibits businesses open to the public from discriminating based on sexual orientation."


"Interestingly, while the Masterpiece case was ongoing, the Colorado Commission found that three secular bakeries did not discriminate based on “creed” when they refused a Christian customer’s request for custom cakes that criticized same-sex marriages on religious grounds. The Commission reasoned that, like Phillips, (1) the bakeries declined the requests because they objected to the particular message of the cake, and (2) the bakeries were willing to create other items for Christians."

« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 10:12:18 AM by zoltani »

GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1019 on: February 13, 2018, 10:45:07 AM »
Odd that the commission reasoned that Phillips declined the request by the gay couple for a wedding cake because of the particular message of the cake . . . when he didn't discuss the message of the cake with them, but simply saw they were gay and said 'no'.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1020 on: February 13, 2018, 11:06:33 AM »

What's very strange is that there isn't anything in the bible the explicitly condemns being gay either . . . while stuff like the 10 commandments is spelled out quite clearly.  So, it's not even a tenant of the religion to be hateful to gay people, just something that many Christians feel happy to do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_homosexuality

To quote the late great Reverand James Lovejoy "Have you actually read this thing?  Technically we're not even allowed to go to the bathroom."  I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make GS, but if you really think the bible is silent on the subject of same sex relations then we'll just have to agree to disagree.  I own four different versions of the damned thing (haha, see what I did there?) it is obviously proscribed behavior.  Now, what takes a bit of deeper reading, and what some modern Christians struggle with, is the WWJD part of it.  I think its clear Jesus would have sold them the cake.  Except it would've tasted woody because Jesus was a carpenter not a baker.  Wedding cabinetry is what you want from big J.

And let me fix your assertion:

Quote
What's very strange is that there isn't anything in the bible the explicitly condemns being gay either . . . while stuff like the 10 commandments is spelled out quite clearly. [ed. struck as false]  So, it's not even a tenant of the religion to be hateful to gay [modifier included to be prejudicial] people, just something that many some misguided Christians feel happy to do.

Again, standard disclaimer:  I don't believe, as a Christian, that I am called upon to in any way behave any differently towards any other human, regardless of the facts of how they live their life.  I am to always assume everyone I deal with is "undercover Jesus" waiting to catch me treating someone badly.  It's fundamental to me to the extent that I don't believe it's right to not hire someone because of felony status, and I abhor all legalized discrimination based on past activities such as drug use, legal violations, etc.  Faith to me, means trusting others to do the right thing, and dealing with the consequences if they let me down.

But that's my religion and it works for me.  It isn't for me to impose that on anyone else.  If someone else believes their religion keeps them from doing a thing, that's really between them and their god.  I can believe they are misguided.  I can buy cake elsewhere, because to me it is just cake, but clearly to them it is something more significant.  I believe a legal protection should extend once, to us, it becomes more than just cake, such as it did with the lunch counters.

If your beliefs prevented you from servicing Christians, I am required by my Christianity to accept that.  And I believe your right to refuse me service based on that belief is constitutionally protected at this point.  I don't believe the government has the right to refuse me service because of my faith, and interfering with my ability to engage in commerce because of that belief feels like what happened to this guy.

And that you don't hold the same belief as him has got to carry at least as much weight as my argument that to me, it's just cake.  Which is to say none at all.  Because in these cases we shouldn't look to the preferences of the people who think it's just cake, we should look to the preferences of the people for whom it is more than just cake.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1021 on: February 13, 2018, 11:09:13 AM »
see Trump. No one refused to sell him a wedding cake because he cheated on his prior wives).

This is the part about the baker's defense that I always had an issue with.  You previously committed adultery? You get a cake. This is your 2nd marriage? You get a cake. You just lied about something? You get a cake.  You guys had sex before marriage? You get a cake. Your gay? I must stand on my principles and no cake for you. Seems it's not all sin the baker hated. Just the one.

You hit the nail on the head for me. Also applies to many religious principles for me. A person can be all sorts "sinful" things in 2018 and still be a good, god fearing Christian but they better not be gay. -eyes rolling-

Yeah. And you can deny people the basic ability to purchase your products in the name of your religion and believe that doing so actually makes you a good Christian, ignoring the fact that Jesus consorted with all sorts and extended fellowship to criminals and adulterers, with no strings attached.

And prostitutes!

At my bakery all prostitutes eat free cake. *nods*

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1022 on: February 13, 2018, 11:39:08 AM »

Really?  You think that the chance of toddler tantrums by straight white people mean that non-white, non-straight people should not have the protection of the law against discrimination?  That's your argument?    Nothing to do with principle?  Nothing to do with what's right?  Just: the straight white people are going to unlawfully resist democratic laws enacted to protect historically and currrently oppressed people so lets not bother enacting those laws?

If you break that one down by racial divides you don't have the coalition you think you do.

https://sociology.yale.edu/sites/default/files/race_and_marriage_equality.pdf

But go ahead and blame it all on whitey.

On another note, when I read his argument, I figured someone would zero in on that regrettable piece of rhetoric.  You can strike it from his point entirely and respond to that, which is what I believe is closer to his intended articulation, or keep going with your assumption that he's a white racist, up to you.

Quote
More moderate libertarian types, like myself, or the guys at Marginal Revolution, or probably the guys at EconLog, can absolutely be horrified that blacks were treated as second-class citizens, and think this should be prevented even if those kinda fucks up parts of the Constitution. Blacks are a huge chunk of the population across a huge geographic area, and their treatment was really, really bad. Homosexuals in America are a substantially smaller portion and don't face anything like the discrimination blacks faced, outside of certain communities, and the inability to get a wedding cake is pretty small potatoes.

I didn't read that inclusion of the numbers as central to his argument, rather put there for emphasis.  As in, if we're going to enact sweeping federal legislation with broad powers and murderously harsh penalties it should be because there's an actual problem that calls for it and has no other resolution in sight.  Gay rights and the situation in general for homosexuals has been improving steadily in the U.S., and now, as then, the real successes have been not in adding legislation establishing the protected class, but stripping the legislation that enshrined certain biases and excluded, either explicitly or accidentally, homosexuals and homosexual couples.

The civil rights era in U.S. History, which many of you in this thread have gotten completely wrong, was an era where these forms of discrimination were explicitly legal and in some cases required.  The government was building facilities with separate drinking fountains.  It was the law itself that was the problem.  That's a fundamental difference to the baker case, where the problem is an individual asshole.

And so we have this legislation on our books that has a historical context, and the goal as a country should be to move towards a world where it isn't necessary.  I don't think we're there yet but we're getting closer.

Someone mentioned a swastika cake, and that is an interesting example.  In Germany you couldn't create a Swastika cake.  They have specific laws about shit like that because it was a problem for them, and their national shame calls on all of them to accept a restriction on their right of free expression.  We don't have a similar prohibition because, quite frankly, it's helpful when people raise that flag so you know they don't matter and can be safely ignored (or in the case of liberals, claim they're valid representations of the right and attempt to conflate the two).

So too in this country, our legacy of racial relations calls upon many of us to accept restrictions on our rights to discriminate, because we took it too far for too long, and refused to change by any other means.

There's a constitutional basis for the enforcement of things in the civil rights act as well, it's the 14th amendment, which is specific:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

And so a law that says same-sex marriage or relations between same-sex couples at the state level is unconstitional, and we see those victories happening again and again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas

But a law that provides special protections to same-sex couples...that isn't as clear cut.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1023 on: February 13, 2018, 11:52:51 AM »
So too in this country, our legacy of racial relations calls upon many of us to accept restrictions on our rights to discriminate, because we took it too far for too long, and refused to change by any other means.

There's a constitutional basis for the enforcement of things in the civil rights act as well, it's the 14th amendment, which is specific:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

And so a law that says same-sex marriage or relations between same-sex couples at the state level is unconstitional, and we see those victories happening again and again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas

But a law that provides special protections to same-sex couples...that isn't as clear cut.

I'm not entirely clear on your argument here, I think your second-to-last sentence is maybe missing a word.

To my mind, this is entirely an equal protection and regulation of commerce issue. Citizens of a state have every right to transact business within the state. Given the Obergefell ruling, how is this different than a business refusing to serve customers based on heterosexual marital status?

Also, sexual orientation needs to be an explicitly protected class.

Just Joe

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1024 on: February 13, 2018, 12:15:30 PM »
As for implying that republicans are against civil rights and women working... really? Go look who voted for and against civil rights, for oen thing. We might be against some heavy handed proposals to make different groups look more equal without actually improving their lot, but I'd say that's better than the soft racism of low expectations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_in_the_United_States

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-Democrats-used-to-be-the-conservative-party-and-Republicans-used-to-be-the-progressive-party-Is-the-whole-truth-more-complex-than-two-parties-switching-their-main-ideologies
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 12:59:53 PM by Just Joe »

Wexler

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1025 on: February 13, 2018, 03:19:08 PM »

Really?  You think that the chance of toddler tantrums by straight white people mean that non-white, non-straight people should not have the protection of the law against discrimination?  That's your argument?    Nothing to do with principle?  Nothing to do with what's right?  Just: the straight white people are going to unlawfully resist democratic laws enacted to protect historically and currrently oppressed people so lets not bother enacting those laws?

If you break that one down by racial divides you don't have the coalition you think you do.

https://sociology.yale.edu/sites/default/files/race_and_marriage_equality.pdf

But go ahead and blame it all on whitey.

On another note, when I read his argument, I figured someone would zero in on that regrettable piece of rhetoric.  You can strike it from his point entirely and respond to that, which is what I believe is closer to his intended articulation, or keep going with your assumption that he's a white racist, up to you.

Quote
More moderate libertarian types, like myself, or the guys at Marginal Revolution, or probably the guys at EconLog, can absolutely be horrified that blacks were treated as second-class citizens, and think this should be prevented even if those kinda fucks up parts of the Constitution. Blacks are a huge chunk of the population across a huge geographic area, and their treatment was really, really bad. Homosexuals in America are a substantially smaller portion and don't face anything like the discrimination blacks faced, outside of certain communities, and the inability to get a wedding cake is pretty small potatoes.

I didn't read that inclusion of the numbers as central to his argument, rather put there for emphasis.  As in, if we're going to enact sweeping federal legislation with broad powers and murderously harsh penalties it should be because there's an actual problem that calls for it and has no other resolution in sight.  Gay rights and the situation in general for homosexuals has been improving steadily in the U.S., and now, as then, the real successes have been not in adding legislation establishing the protected class, but stripping the legislation that enshrined certain biases and excluded, either explicitly or accidentally, homosexuals and homosexual couples.

The civil rights era in U.S. History, which many of you in this thread have gotten completely wrong, was an era where these forms of discrimination were explicitly legal and in some cases required.  The government was building facilities with separate drinking fountains.  It was the law itself that was the problem.  That's a fundamental difference to the baker case, where the problem is an individual asshole.

And so we have this legislation on our books that has a historical context, and the goal as a country should be to move towards a world where it isn't necessary.  I don't think we're there yet but we're getting closer.

Someone mentioned a swastika cake, and that is an interesting example.  In Germany you couldn't create a Swastika cake.  They have specific laws about shit like that because it was a problem for them, and their national shame calls on all of them to accept a restriction on their right of free expression.  We don't have a similar prohibition because, quite frankly, it's helpful when people raise that flag so you know they don't matter and can be safely ignored (or in the case of liberals, claim they're valid representations of the right and attempt to conflate the two).

So too in this country, our legacy of racial relations calls upon many of us to accept restrictions on our rights to discriminate, because we took it too far for too long, and refused to change by any other means.

There's a constitutional basis for the enforcement of things in the civil rights act as well, it's the 14th amendment, which is specific:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

And so a law that says same-sex marriage or relations between same-sex couples at the state level is unconstitional, and we see those victories happening again and again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas

But a law that provides special protections to same-sex couples...that isn't as clear cut.

It's not entirely true that the civil rights movement addressed only government wrongs (laws requiring who could sit where) and not private behavior. The civil rights movement also addressed unfair racial discrimination in private housing transactions:
http://civilrights.findlaw.com/discrimination/housing-discrimination-u-s-supreme-court-cases.html
These were a big deal, because many private individuals did not want to sell their homes to minorities and many private landlords did not want to rent to minorities.  They perpetuated in this behavior in the absence of laws requiring it.  Eventually, the Supreme Court infringed on Mayer's right to refuse sell to his home to anyone his racist heart told him was unworthy.

 Frankly, as tired as some of our libertarian commenters are of what they think of as trivial complaints about cake, I am equally tired of moralizing bakers, not to mention pharmacists and nurses who don't want to fulfill critical components of their jobs.  How about all of these religious dissenters explain how they voted for thrice-married two Corinthians adulterer Donald Trump and then they can tell me how moral they are?  When we are done, they are free to run off to the mall to try to pick up teenage girls until the security guards kick them out.
 

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1026 on: February 13, 2018, 04:02:19 PM »
Frankly, as tired as some of our libertarian commenters are of what they think of as trivial complaints about cake, I am equally tired of moralizing bakers, not to mention pharmacists and nurses who don't want to fulfill critical components of their jobs.  How about all of these religious dissenters explain how they voted for thrice-married two Corinthians adulterer Donald Trump and then they can tell me how moral they are?  When we are done, they are free to run off to the mall to try to pick up teenage girls until the security guards kick them out.

Well, alot of them didn't.  Many of the rest advised in advanced against nominating HRC.  Dealing with it after the fact as though there was a viable option that go-round is disingenuous.  There was no moral option, so you go with the group that isn't calling you a pedophile.

MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1027 on: February 14, 2018, 06:47:18 AM »
How about all of these religious dissenters explain how they voted for thrice-married two Corinthians adulterer Donald Trump and then they can tell me how moral they are? 
Well I'm not religious, but I can provide some insight.  No one is one-dimensional.  So just because someone is religious, doesn't mean they also aren't an American, or a mother, or any number of things pulling them in different directions.  Trump, while he said many contradictory things, said he was going to defend religious freedoms.  As far as I know, Hillary did not, or at least she was viewed as weaker on that stance.  So the question is would you vote for someone who is a sinner, but will promote the same ideas you have, or a different kind of sinner who won't?

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1028 on: February 14, 2018, 06:55:51 AM »
Well I'm not religious, but I can provide some insight.  No one is one-dimensional.  So just because someone is religious, doesn't mean they also aren't an American, or a mother, or any number of things pulling them in different directions.  Trump, while he said many contradictory things, said he was going to defend religious freedoms discrimination.  As far as I know, Hillary did not, or at least she was viewed as weaker on that stance.  So the question is would you vote for someone who is a sinner, but will promote the same ideas you have, or a different kind of sinner who won't?

FTFY

ketchup

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1029 on: February 14, 2018, 07:55:00 AM »
Well I'm not religious, but I can provide some insight.  No one is one-dimensional.  So just because someone is religious, doesn't mean they also aren't an American, or a mother, or any number of things pulling them in different directions.  Trump, while he said many contradictory things, said he was going to defend religious freedoms discrimination.  As far as I know, Hillary did not, or at least she was viewed as weaker on that stance.  So the question is would you vote for someone who is a sinner, but will promote the same ideas you have, or a different kind of sinner who won't?

FTFY
As much fun as it'd be to not stick my wang in this particular hornet's nest, it is pretty hard to argue that 75% of the country's population (Christians) are somehow being limited on their "religious freedom."  The New Testament was definitely written in the mindset of Christians being the persecuted minority, which was the reality of its day, but that hasn't been true in western civilization since around the time of Constantine. 

Any blather I heard relation to Trump and religion was along the lines of "he's going to bring God back to America."  As if he somehow left.

Apart from Bill Maher types, there isn't much direct mockery of Christians, certainly not compared to other types of discrimination in this country.  Though I suppose somewhat ironically it's easier to convince a larger group that they're under attack by the man.


MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1031 on: February 14, 2018, 09:07:25 AM »
Well I'm not religious, but I can provide some insight.  No one is one-dimensional.  So just because someone is religious, doesn't mean they also aren't an American, or a mother, or any number of things pulling them in different directions.  Trump, while he said many contradictory things, said he was going to defend religious freedoms discrimination.  As far as I know, Hillary did not, or at least she was viewed as weaker on that stance.  So the question is would you vote for someone who is a sinner, but will promote the same ideas you have, or a different kind of sinner who won't?

FTFY
I know Trump has said a lot of things, but can you show me where he has said he's going to defend discrimination?  I'm looking for something more than a "he said X, but really means Y" since I have trouble following some of those.

Wexler

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1032 on: February 14, 2018, 09:22:14 AM »
Frankly, as tired as some of our libertarian commenters are of what they think of as trivial complaints about cake, I am equally tired of moralizing bakers, not to mention pharmacists and nurses who don't want to fulfill critical components of their jobs.  How about all of these religious dissenters explain how they voted for thrice-married two Corinthians adulterer Donald Trump and then they can tell me how moral they are?  When we are done, they are free to run off to the mall to try to pick up teenage girls until the security guards kick them out.

Well, alot of them didn't.  Many of the rest advised in advanced against nominating HRC.  Dealing with it after the fact as though there was a viable option that go-round is disingenuous.  There was no moral option, so you go with the group that isn't calling you a pedophile.

Dude-that's unfair.  We didn't even know their standards were so low as to ignore pedophilia until AFTER they voted for Trump.  You can't blame liberal "neener, neener, pedophile" shaming for Trump winning.  Meanwhile, I don't think that the kind of people who voted for Roy Moore are the types who, if we just coddled their gentle snowflake nature about a little more about their support for a pedophile, would have voted for Doug Jones.  Conversely, I ain't sucking up to Roy Moore voters and their ilk (and let's not forget the entire Republican establishment who threw up their hands and pretended that they had no other option but to support him).  The GOP can have them.  What does work, though (and that's why conservatives keep bitching about it), is pointing out to moderates the hypocrisy of the GOP and how low their standards are.  It actually worked in Alabama-lots of nice Republicans didn't want to bring shame on themselves and their state. So keep bringing up Roy Moore.  And Rob Porter and Stormy Daniels.   Keep asking your friends why they used to fleck spit at you shouting about Bill Clinton's sex life, but why they don't care that Trump paid off a porn star.  And don't let them turn it around.  We aren't the ones who shut down the wheels of governance because the president got a blow job.  They are the ones who told us it was impeachment worthy.  Let them explain themselves. 

Just Joe

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1033 on: February 14, 2018, 09:24:23 AM »
Any blather I heard relation to Trump and religion was along the lines of "he's going to bring God back to America."  As if he somehow left.

Nah, what I think they mean is they will bring back rules and laws that put dissenters back under the thumb of the Christian right. No more gay rights, weaken a dozen other protections for everyone else, and actively promote the Christian agenda. It would strengthen the cultural right to be homophobic and xenophobic again.

The first step towards moving the clock back to the 50s and early 60s where their were straight, Christian whites and everyone else - and everyone else needed to be managed.

Nope, thanks.

Just Joe

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1034 on: February 14, 2018, 09:32:52 AM »
Keep asking your friends why they used to fleck spit at you shouting about Bill Clinton's sex life, but why they don't care that Trump paid off a porn star.  And don't let them turn it around.  We aren't the ones who shut down the wheels of governance because the president got a blow job.  They are the ones who told us it was impeachment worthy.  Let them explain themselves.

Don't forget that while Gingrich was moralizing about Clinton's affair - Gingrich was guilty of the same, likely at the same time...

The corporate and political hypocrisy in this country is mind boggling. This is America - insert long list of platitudes about American exceptionalism, patriotism, God, history, struggle, etc.

Its all bullshit especially when politicians and preachers lecture us about it.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1035 on: February 14, 2018, 09:35:22 AM »
I know Trump has said a lot of things, but can you show me where he has said he's going to defend discrimination?  I'm looking for something more than a "he said X, but really means Y" since I have trouble following some of those.

No, and I think you're being deliberately obtuse.

Because "religious freedom" in the context of American Christianity is a dog whistle for "right to discriminate." Christianity in America is not, and has never been, under attack in any meaningful way.

The idea that what consenting adults do in their own private space somehow affects a third party's religious life (or secular life, for that matter) is patently absurd. Any argument to the contrary betrays an authoritarian impulse that goes against many of the founding principles of the United States. People fought and died to expand those rights and principles to all people. The desire by a vocal subset of the population to regress is offensive in the extreme.

Basically, if you can't be nice to someone, just shut your face.

Nick_Miller

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1036 on: February 14, 2018, 09:43:23 AM »
Less than 10 years ago, I was still a registered Republican. It makes me ill to think I was part of that group.

I kept trying to tell myself, "Well, they are for fiscal responsibility, and balancing budgets, and trimming fat, and encouraging people to be responsible and self-sufficient citizens who contribute positively to society."

But I hated the religious crap. I hated how they treated gay people. I hated their views about women. But I tried to justify my concerns with the stuff above.

And then I just couldn't do it anymore.

I attended a local GOP event around 2009ish. Obama had recently won and the GOPers were pissed off! I sat there dumb-founded at the racist comments. And this was an official meeting! Party leaders and such were there. This was not some loosely organized private citizen event.

I felt like a horrible person just by sitting there.

Sometimes I think back and regret not standing up and leaving, calling them a bunch of racist, theocratic SOBs, but I guess I was curious about how bad things would get, so I stayed. In a way, maybe it was a good thing that I stayed. It made my decision more clear every minute I listened. I vowed to myself that I would leave the party (which I did within days).

I did not swing to Democrat. I went independent, but I pretty much always vote for Dems now, as there is rarely a viable third option. And then I read today about Sean Hannity tweeting that President Obama's portrait was "too sexy" and I think to myself...the Republicans are freaking INSANE!!!

INSANE!! I don't know what else to say about them. It's like they aren't attached to reality. Trump pushes evangelical bullshit while knowing (he HAD to know!) that his lawyer paid $130K to some porn star he banged?? I will add "EVIL af" to INSANE!!

Let me calm down.

Okay I am good.

MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1037 on: February 14, 2018, 09:59:56 AM »
I know Trump has said a lot of things, but can you show me where he has said he's going to defend discrimination?  I'm looking for something more than a "he said X, but really means Y" since I have trouble following some of those.

No, and I think you're being deliberately obtuse.

Because "religious freedom" in the context of American Christianity is a dog whistle for "right to discriminate." Christianity in America is not, and has never been, under attack in any meaningful way.

The idea that what consenting adults do in their own private space somehow affects a third party's religious life (or secular life, for that matter) is patently absurd. Any argument to the contrary betrays an authoritarian impulse that goes against many of the founding principles of the United States. People fought and died to expand those rights and principles to all people. The desire by a vocal subset of the population to regress is offensive in the extreme.

Basically, if you can't be nice to someone, just shut your face.
Well I disagree, I don't think "religious freedom" = "right to discriminate."  I do think there are places where they overlap, and that requires careful consideration, but there's overlap in a lot of ideas. 

So you don't have a quote?  It seems you're trying to put words into Trump's mouth that fit your opinion of him.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1038 on: February 14, 2018, 10:26:06 AM »
Well I disagree, I don't think "religious freedom" = "right to discriminate."  I do think there are places where they overlap, and that requires careful consideration, but there's overlap in a lot of ideas. 

So you don't have a quote?  It seems you're trying to put words into Trump's mouth that fit your opinion of him.

You're right, the freedom of religion doesn't equal the right to discriminate.

You                                                                                                            The point

The whole purpose of a dog whistle is that you can't quote someone explicitly advocating a ridiculous position. It's encoded in words that are literally defensible (as you so ably demonstrate), but carry subtext that everyone can understand.

wenchsenior

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1039 on: February 14, 2018, 10:32:14 AM »
Well I disagree, I don't think "religious freedom" = "right to discriminate."  I do think there are places where they overlap, and that requires careful consideration, but there's overlap in a lot of ideas. 

So you don't have a quote?  It seems you're trying to put words into Trump's mouth that fit your opinion of him.

You're right, the freedom of religion doesn't equal the right to discriminate.

You                                                                                                            The point

The whole purpose of a dog whistle is that you can't quote someone explicitly advocating a ridiculous position. It's encoded in words that are literally defensible (as you so ably demonstrate), but carry subtext that everyone can understand.

I thought the travel ban was pretty much an explicit statement of religious discrimination against Muslims.

MasterStache

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1040 on: February 14, 2018, 10:41:47 AM »
Well I disagree, I don't think "religious freedom" = "right to discriminate."  I do think there are places where they overlap, and that requires careful consideration, but there's overlap in a lot of ideas. 

So you don't have a quote?  It seems you're trying to put words into Trump's mouth that fit your opinion of him.

You're right, the freedom of religion doesn't equal the right to discriminate.

You                                                                                                            The point

The whole purpose of a dog whistle is that you can't quote someone explicitly advocating a ridiculous position. It's encoded in words that are literally defensible (as you so ably demonstrate), but carry subtext that everyone can understand.

I thought the travel ban was pretty much an explicit statement of religious discrimination against Muslims.

Or the Obama "birther movement," calling black athletes SOBs, the numerous discriminatory based lawsuits he settled, "shithole countries," defending white nationalist as "some very fine people" etc. etc. Hell picking Pence as his VP.

shenlong55

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1041 on: February 14, 2018, 10:53:31 AM »
Again, standard disclaimer:  I don't believe, as a Christian, that I am called upon to in any way behave any differently towards any other human, regardless of the facts of how they live their life.  I am to always assume everyone I deal with is "undercover Jesus" waiting to catch me treating someone badly.  It's fundamental to me to the extent that I don't believe it's right to not hire someone because of felony status, and I abhor all legalized discrimination based on past activities such as drug use, legal violations, etc.  Faith to me, means trusting others to do the right thing, and dealing with the consequences if they let me down.

But that's my religion and it works for me.  It isn't for me to impose that on anyone else.  If someone else believes their religion keeps them from doing a thing, that's really between them and their god.  I can believe they are misguided.  I can buy cake elsewhere, because to me it is just cake, but clearly to them it is something more significant.  I believe a legal protection should extend once, to us, it becomes more than just cake, such as it did with the lunch counters.

If your beliefs prevented you from servicing Christians, I am required by my Christianity to accept that.  And I believe your right to refuse me service based on that belief is constitutionally protected at this point.  I don't believe the government has the right to refuse me service because of my faith, and interfering with my ability to engage in commerce because of that belief feels like what happened to this guy.

And that you don't hold the same belief as him has got to carry at least as much weight as my argument that to me, it's just cake.  Which is to say none at all.  Because in these cases we shouldn't look to the preferences of the people who think it's just cake, we should look to the preferences of the people for whom it is more than just cake.
I didn't read that inclusion of the numbers as central to his argument, rather put there for emphasis.  As in, if we're going to enact sweeping federal legislation with broad powers and murderously harsh penalties it should be because there's an actual problem that calls for it and has no other resolution in sight.  Gay rights and the situation in general for homosexuals has been improving steadily in the U.S., and now, as then, the real successes have been not in adding legislation establishing the protected class, but stripping the legislation that enshrined certain biases and excluded, either explicitly or accidentally, homosexuals and homosexual couples.

The civil rights era in U.S. History, which many of you in this thread have gotten completely wrong, was an era where these forms of discrimination were explicitly legal and in some cases required.  The government was building facilities with separate drinking fountains.  It was the law itself that was the problem.  That's a fundamental difference to the baker case, where the problem is an individual asshole.

And so we have this legislation on our books that has a historical context, and the goal as a country should be to move towards a world where it isn't necessary.  I don't think we're there yet but we're getting closer.

Someone mentioned a swastika cake, and that is an interesting example.  In Germany you couldn't create a Swastika cake.  They have specific laws about shit like that because it was a problem for them, and their national shame calls on all of them to accept a restriction on their right of free expression.  We don't have a similar prohibition because, quite frankly, it's helpful when people raise that flag so you know they don't matter and can be safely ignored (or in the case of liberals, claim they're valid representations of the right and attempt to conflate the two).

So too in this country, our legacy of racial relations calls upon many of us to accept restrictions on our rights to discriminate, because we took it too far for too long, and refused to change by any other means.


There's a constitutional basis for the enforcement of things in the civil rights act as well, it's the 14th amendment, which is specific:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

And so a law that says same-sex marriage or relations between same-sex couples at the state level is unconstitional, and we see those victories happening again and again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas

But a law that provides special protections to same-sex couples...that isn't as clear cut.

Thank you for the excellent explanation of your position.  I can't say that I 100% agree with it, but I do feel like I understand it much better now.  My main disagreement would be that I feel that our legacy of relations with the LGBT community may call upon many of us to accept restrictions on our rights to discriminate similarly to how you feel our legacy of race relations does the same.  In my view, maybe we should have some national shame with regards to how we have treated the LGBT community in the past and accept some restrictions on our rights to free expression based on that.  I agree that we shouldn't be forcing anyone to create a cake with a message on it that they disagree with, but in this particular case it seems pretty clear that the baker denied service to the gay couple solely based on the fact that they were gay and not based on the design of the cake at all.  Personally, I think that requiring that kind of clarity is a good enough limitation on the restriction of our right to discriminate and if it wasn't so clear I might very well come down on the side of the baker.

Dabnasty

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1042 on: February 14, 2018, 10:55:07 AM »
I know Trump has said a lot of things, but can you show me where he has said he's going to defend discrimination?  I'm looking for something more than a "he said X, but really means Y" since I have trouble following some of those.

No, and I think you're being deliberately obtuse.

Because "religious freedom" in the context of American Christianity is a dog whistle for "right to discriminate." Christianity in America is not, and has never been, under attack in any meaningful way.

The idea that what consenting adults do in their own private space somehow affects a third party's religious life (or secular life, for that matter) is patently absurd. Any argument to the contrary betrays an authoritarian impulse that goes against many of the founding principles of the United States. People fought and died to expand those rights and principles to all people. The desire by a vocal subset of the population to regress is offensive in the extreme.

Basically, if you can't be nice to someone, just shut your face.
Well I disagree, I don't think "religious freedom" = "right to discriminate."  I do think there are places where they overlap, and that requires careful consideration, but there's overlap in a lot of ideas. 

So you don't have a quote?  It seems you're trying to put words into Trump's mouth that fit your opinion of him.

What religious freedom is he referring to when he says he will defend them?

My best understanding:
1) Christian freedoms
2) The freedom to not have to hear about or deal with other religions in the media
3) The freedom to discriminate against others based on your religion
4) The freedom to impose Christian beliefs and messages on others

Things like removing the pledge of allegiance from schools are in no way meant to be an attack on Christianity. School is a public place and some students are not Christian. Saying one nation under God is, in a sense, an attack on their religious freedom, removing it is not an attack on anything. But that's not how people who grew up with Christianity see it. When something has become so ingrained in your view of "normal" I can understand that it's difficult to see the other side (took me a while in terms of religion, I'm sure I still have a long ways to go in other areas) but anyone coming from an alien world with no prior concept of religion would clearly see that it is the Christians in American who are limiting the religious freedoms of others.

(This is not a criticism of all Christians, I'm using the term in context of the argument made by those who feel they are being persecuted.)


MrMoogle

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1043 on: February 14, 2018, 10:56:08 AM »
The whole purpose of a dog whistle is that you can't quote someone explicitly advocating a ridiculous position. It's encoded in words that are literally defensible (as you so ably demonstrate), but carry subtext that everyone can understand.
I guess not everyone.  I've always had problems with underlying assumptions.  I remember when someone explained to me that "welfare queens" generally referred to black women. 

Is there a study that shows that most people understand this subtext?

MDM

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1044 on: February 14, 2018, 11:00:30 AM »
The whole purpose of a dog whistle is that you can't quote someone explicitly advocating a ridiculous position. It's encoded in words that are literally defensible (as you so ably demonstrate), but carry subtext that everyone can understand.
I guess not everyone.  I've always had problems with underlying assumptions.  I remember when someone explained to me that "welfare queens" generally referred to black women. 

Is there a study that shows that most people understand this subtext?
People hear what they want to hear.  That cuts both ways.

shenlong55

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1045 on: February 14, 2018, 11:03:10 AM »
I know Trump has said a lot of things, but can you show me where he has said he's going to defend discrimination?  I'm looking for something more than a "he said X, but really means Y" since I have trouble following some of those.

No, and I think you're being deliberately obtuse.

Because "religious freedom" in the context of American Christianity is a dog whistle for "right to discriminate." Christianity in America is not, and has never been, under attack in any meaningful way.

The idea that what consenting adults do in their own private space somehow affects a third party's religious life (or secular life, for that matter) is patently absurd. Any argument to the contrary betrays an authoritarian impulse that goes against many of the founding principles of the United States. People fought and died to expand those rights and principles to all people. The desire by a vocal subset of the population to regress is offensive in the extreme.

Basically, if you can't be nice to someone, just shut your face.
Well I disagree, I don't think "religious freedom" = "right to discriminate."  I do think there are places where they overlap, and that requires careful consideration, but there's overlap in a lot of ideas. 

So you don't have a quote?  It seems you're trying to put words into Trump's mouth that fit your opinion of him.

I agree that "religious freedom" != "right to discriminate.  However, if my understanding of the term "religious freedom" includes the right to discriminate based on my religion and I say that I will defend "religious freedom" then I am in fact stating that I will defend the right to discriminate based on my religion.  I don't know what Trump's understanding of the term "religious freedom" entails, but I would think that we could get some insight into that question by looking at the related ideas that he does or does not support.

Dabnasty

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1046 on: February 14, 2018, 11:07:01 AM »
The whole purpose of a dog whistle is that you can't quote someone explicitly advocating a ridiculous position. It's encoded in words that are literally defensible (as you so ably demonstrate), but carry subtext that everyone can understand.
I guess not everyone.  I've always had problems with underlying assumptions.  I remember when someone explained to me that "welfare queens" generally referred to black women. 

Is there a study that shows that most people understand this subtext?

The term originated with a real person, Linda Taylor, who was a black woman

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_queen

Quote
the phrase "welfare queen" has remained a stigmatizing label and is most often directed toward black, single mothers
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 11:08:42 AM by Dabnasty »

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1047 on: February 14, 2018, 11:08:53 AM »
The whole purpose of a dog whistle is that you can't quote someone explicitly advocating a ridiculous position. It's encoded in words that are literally defensible (as you so ably demonstrate), but carry subtext that everyone can understand.
I guess not everyone.  I've always had problems with underlying assumptions.  I remember when someone explained to me that "welfare queens" generally referred to black women. 

Is there a study that shows that most people understand this subtext?

It's not a study, but a good explainer nevertheless: https://www.splcenter.org/20160211/religious-liberty-and-anti-lgbt-right

Lagom

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1048 on: February 14, 2018, 04:50:42 PM »
Still waiting for a convincing argument on why trying to stop people (e.g. like the baker, Hobby Lobby, etc.) from forcing religious beliefs onto others who don't share those beliefs  somehow represents oppression and/or government overreach.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 05:02:36 PM by Lagom »

RidetheRain

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #1049 on: February 14, 2018, 05:05:56 PM »
Still waiting for a convincing argument on why trying to stop people from forcing religious beliefs onto others who don't share those beliefs (e.g. like the Baker, Hobby Lobby, etc.) somehow represents oppression and/or government overreach.

I think the problem with looking for a convincing argument on that is that most people either don't see it that way or aren't capable of a convincing argument in your view - or agrees with you :)

For example, a lot of people will say that Hobby Lobby isn't forcing their beliefs on employees, they just aren't accommodating yours to their own detriment (higher insurance costs or whatever). There's an ignorant sort of person that will also go the "just don't work there" route with the argument.

Or they look at the belief as a moral absolute. Pro-life people see abortion as the same thing as killing toddler. If you don't see it the same way then you aren't going to find the argument convincing. After all, how do you argue that killing is bad other than it just is?