Author Topic: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?  (Read 81830 times)

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #100 on: December 05, 2017, 06:50:23 AM »
I'm comfortable that people whose opinions I have any respect for don't rush to discount my words when I describe Trump as a racist rather than as a definite bigot and almost certain racist who's on record has having said openly racist things

You may have respect for their opinions and hold them in high regard, but if those same people offer your opinions respect when you make a claim while not providing any evidence of worth, it raises a lot of questions in my mind. Do these people not value intellectual honesty? Facts? Evidence? If I offer opinions to others and offer poor evidence, I'd have more respect for those people if they found my claims dubious at best.

EDIT: I realized after rereading this that it could come off really combative. That wasn't my intent. But I'll leave it as is.

The people I'm referencing are mostly former university debaters, with a couple of world finalists and a world champion among them. There's also a fair few legal professionals and academics. By and large, they are extremely interested in the value of words and the power of persuasive argument.

But that's neither here nor there. We're talking about a man who was sued by the Justice Department for discriminating against black tenants, who spent an obscene amount of money to demand that the Central Park Five be executed (and never apologised following their acquital), who made himself the public face of the claim that America's first black president wasn't really American, and who was called out for racism by the head of his own party during his own election campaign. He's a racist and a bigot.

So again, to my point, when making claims during a conversation/debate/argument/whatever about anything (including Trump), back your claim with things relevant to your claim. You claimed he was racist and then proceeded to give numerous points that actually had nothing to do with racism. This kind of approach will turn your audience off because it makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

If I have to spell it out for you, I'm not arguing against your claim that he is racist. I am arguing in favor of citing specific, accurate examples that demonstrate your claim. That is all.

Are you arguing that Black people are humans therefore it isn't racist? Because that's what it looks like at this point.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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LibrarIan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #101 on: December 05, 2017, 07:04:43 AM »
I'm comfortable that people whose opinions I have any respect for don't rush to discount my words when I describe Trump as a racist rather than as a definite bigot and almost certain racist who's on record has having said openly racist things

You may have respect for their opinions and hold them in high regard, but if those same people offer your opinions respect when you make a claim while not providing any evidence of worth, it raises a lot of questions in my mind. Do these people not value intellectual honesty? Facts? Evidence? If I offer opinions to others and offer poor evidence, I'd have more respect for those people if they found my claims dubious at best.

EDIT: I realized after rereading this that it could come off really combative. That wasn't my intent. But I'll leave it as is.

The people I'm referencing are mostly former university debaters, with a couple of world finalists and a world champion among them. There's also a fair few legal professionals and academics. By and large, they are extremely interested in the value of words and the power of persuasive argument.

But that's neither here nor there. We're talking about a man who was sued by the Justice Department for discriminating against black tenants, who spent an obscene amount of money to demand that the Central Park Five be executed (and never apologised following their acquital), who made himself the public face of the claim that America's first black president wasn't really American, and who was called out for racism by the head of his own party during his own election campaign. He's a racist and a bigot.

So again, to my point, when making claims during a conversation/debate/argument/whatever about anything (including Trump), back your claim with things relevant to your claim. You claimed he was racist and then proceeded to give numerous points that actually had nothing to do with racism. This kind of approach will turn your audience off because it makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

If I have to spell it out for you, I'm not arguing against your claim that he is racist. I am arguing in favor of citing specific, accurate examples that demonstrate your claim. That is all.

Are you arguing that Black people are humans therefore it isn't racist? Because that's what it looks like at this point.


No. I'm arguing that they need to use actual evidence to support a claim. The quoted text above is missing the original context, in which runbikerun said the following specifically about Trump's racism (with my responses in bold):

"-Claiming Obama wasn't really American. Was this motivated by Barack's race? If so, is he claiming all biracial people aren't American?
-Scapegoating Mexicans. Mexican isn't a race, it's a nationality
-Accusing Gonzalo Curiel of bias based on his ethnic heritage (which was defined by Paul Ryan as "the textbook definition of a racist comment.") Without looking into this at all, this one at least sounds like it could be racially motivated. His name sounding Hispanic and his parents being Hispanics from Mexico and all.
-Scapegoating Muslims. Muslims are not a race.
-Insulting a Gold Star family on the basis of their religion. Religion is not a race.
-Instituting a travel ban as one of his very first actions which specifically targeted Muslims. Muslims are not a race."

While I would agree that Trump is a bigoted prick, most of the stuff they listed has nothing to do with racism, and it runs the risk of their opponents (whomever they are) ignoring them because they didn't actually provide a list of evidence about Trump's racism.

It's getting surprising to me that people have so much of an issue with this concept.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 07:07:33 AM by LibrarIan »

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #102 on: December 05, 2017, 07:17:43 AM »
No. I'm arguing that they need to use actual evidence to support a claim. The quoted text above is missing the original context, in which runbikerun said the following specifically about Trump's racism (with my responses in bold):


So the part about housing discrimination, that's not racist?
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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Kris

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #103 on: December 05, 2017, 07:25:40 AM »
I have three questions for all the non-racist Trump supporters on here.

1) Do you believe Barack Obama was born in the United States?

2) Do you believe Barack Obama is a Christian?

3) Do you believe it is acceptable that Donald Trump has asserted on numerous occasions that Obama was not born in this country and has suggested repeatedly that he is actually a Muslim?

My money is you get zero genuine responses to your questions here from Trump voters.

Ha, yeah, they're not exactly jumping out of the woodwork to answer, are they?
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

LibrarIan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #104 on: December 05, 2017, 07:25:49 AM »
No. I'm arguing that they need to use actual evidence to support a claim. The quoted text above is missing the original context, in which runbikerun said the following specifically about Trump's racism (with my responses in bold):


So the part about housing discrimination, that's not racist?

Yes, that is a good example that runbikerun definitely could've thrown in their initial list that started this thread derailment.

Kris

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #105 on: December 05, 2017, 07:26:58 AM »
I do not regret voting for him at all.  I was initially put off by his manner etc. Generally can't stand watching the narcissistic blowhard. Voted Cruz in the primaries. I still don't like who he is but I'm thrilled with what he's DOING.

In retrospect I'm extremely glad I had the opportunity to vote for the Great Orange Swamp-Drainer and will do it again in 3yrs! For the first time since at least Reagan we have an unapologetic hard-charging dam' the torpedoes Patriot in the White House.

And quit calling me racist. Just proves you've got nothing of substance, so let's sink to the worst of all personal attacks: good old tried-n-true racism, maybe stir in some misogyny for flavor and make snide comments about the South while you're at it. Easy to throw the accusations, placates the ego, places the opposition on defense, and most importantly, prevents any intellectual discourse.
I'm not sure why you're excited about Trump. He seems patriotic enough, but he's an ineffective President and highly polarizing. There are other candidates who would have done a better job (and at this point I might revisit my decision to prefer Trump over Cruz).

You can't really "drain the swamp" just by asserting it. You need to work within the existing power structures.

Quote
1) Do you believe Barack Obama was born in the United States?

2) Do you believe Barack Obama is a Christian?

3) Do you believe it is acceptable that Donald Trump has asserted on numerous occasions that Obama was not born in this country and has suggested repeatedly that he is actually a Muslim?
1. Yeah.
2. No, not really. He seems like he's probably one of those Cafeteria Christians, and probably goes to church for the same reason he doesn't smoke: Michelle badgers him about it. Obama does not strike as a True Believer. I am guessing you are getting at whether I think he's a secret Muslim: No.
3. Acceptable in what sense? It's not the behavior of polite society, so I don't support it.

I see. What gives you the impression that Michelle badgers him about going to church?

And by these criteria, I'm guessing you don't consider Donald Trump a Christian, either?
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

runbikerun

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #106 on: December 05, 2017, 07:29:35 AM »
The reason this is odd is that in virtually every public sphere (the media, politics etc), there's little meaningful distinction between racism and bigotry. Racism is understood as a subset of bigotry, and a broad subset at that. The birther claims are racist: it's a targeting of American's first black president as not being truly American. Only an absurdly reductionist definition of racism could exclude it.

Likewise, nationality and religious identity are frequently understood as proxies for race, and bigotry based on those is treated as being racist in nature.

But the big thing is this: it's really, really fucking weird to focus manically on the specific use of "racist" as opposed to "bigoted" in a conversation of this nature. As I said, Trump has a long history of racist actions, was called out for racism by the head of his own party, and a huge swathe of his policies are bigoted in a deeply racially tinged way. Getting hung up on the use of the term "racist" when you've already conceded that he's been openly racist is a thoroughly weird choice of priorities. He's a racist and a bigot, and you're arguing over whether a subset of his behaviour is racist or merely bigoted. It's akin to stepping into a debate on whether a politician should resign for cocaine use and posting "He wasn't using cocaine, he was using crack!"

bwall

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #107 on: December 05, 2017, 07:40:29 AM »
And by these criteria, I'm guessing you don't consider Donald Trump a Christian, either?

I'm always amazed at how people are willing to believe that a man who says "I"m a Christian" is in fact muslim AND at the same time have no problem believing that Mr. "Two Corinthians" knows their values and is willing to stand up for them.

LibrarIan

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #108 on: December 05, 2017, 07:44:22 AM »
Might I suggest this electronic, illustrated debate book to everyone? https://bookofbadarguments.com/

While I agree that there are relationships between race and things like nationality and religion, they are still not the same thing. And to someone who you're arguing or conversing with, it will matter. As someone who has argued/conversed with lots of people of opposing viewpoints due to a nonprofit I help run, I can assure you this. If Trump actually was racist with, say, the "Muslim ban" (and I have no reason to suspect he wasn't), making the claim from the angle of religion will allow someone to write you off. People have a tendency, when faced with an opposing argument, to search for any shred that they can use to dismiss your claims. It's just part of human psychology. Being logically coherent in your approach can avoid this kind of stuff, even if in the end the other person still decides to not agree with you.

That is literally all. Please think critically. By calling into question the approach runbikerun made does mean I disagree with their claims - only their approach. I am only trying to help.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 07:48:48 AM by LibrarIan »

StarBright

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #109 on: December 05, 2017, 07:45:15 AM »
To those in this thread piling on and attacking Trump voters, you're defeating what I believe was OP's purpose of having a real discussion. If all you want to do is attack, start your own thread. I understand the frustration you feel but all you're doing is playing whack-a-mole with anyone who dares peek their head out of the ground to have an honest conversation. Even if someone's reasoning is flawed, you need to understand it before you can debate it.

I think you are right. And while I wouldn't consider my post upthread as an attack, I have removed it in the spirit of not "piling on."

runbikerun

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #110 on: December 05, 2017, 07:56:40 AM »
Might I suggest this electronic, illustrated debate book to everyone? https://bookofbadarguments.com/

While I agree that there are relationships between race and things like nationality and religion, they are still not the same thing. And to someone who you're arguing or conversing with, it will matter. As someone who has argued/conversed with lots of people of opposing viewpoints due to a nonprofit I help run, I can assure you this. If Trump actually was racist with, say, the "Muslim ban" (and I have no reason to suspect he wasn't), making the claim from the angle of religion will allow someone to write you off. People have a tendency, when faced with an opposing argument, to search for any shred that they can use to dismiss your claims. It's just part of human psychology. Being logically coherent in your approach can avoid this kind of stuff, even if in the end the other person still decides to not agree with you.

That is literally all. Please think critically. By calling into question the approach runbikerun made does mean I disagree with their claims - only their approach. I am only trying to help.

This has gone way too far off topic. I'm not sure the thread is gaining anything from my continued involvement, so am calling it a day.

J Boogie

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #111 on: December 05, 2017, 08:14:19 AM »
I do not regret voting for him at all.  I was initially put off by his manner etc. Generally can't stand watching the narcissistic blowhard. Voted Cruz in the primaries. I still don't like who he is but I'm thrilled with what he's DOING.

In retrospect I'm extremely glad I had the opportunity to vote for the Great Orange Swamp-Drainer and will do it again in 3yrs! For the first time since at least Reagan we have an unapologetic hard-charging dam' the torpedoes Patriot in the White House.

And quit calling me racist. Just proves you've got nothing of substance, so let's sink to the worst of all personal attacks: good old tried-n-true racism, maybe stir in some misogyny for flavor and make snide comments about the South while you're at it. Easy to throw the accusations, placates the ego, places the opposition on defense, and most importantly, prevents any intellectual discourse.
I'm not sure why you're excited about Trump. He seems patriotic enough, but he's an ineffective President and highly polarizing. There are other candidates who would have done a better job (and at this point I might revisit my decision to prefer Trump over Cruz).

You can't really "drain the swamp" just by asserting it. You need to work within the existing power structures.

Quote
1) Do you believe Barack Obama was born in the United States?

2) Do you believe Barack Obama is a Christian?

3) Do you believe it is acceptable that Donald Trump has asserted on numerous occasions that Obama was not born in this country and has suggested repeatedly that he is actually a Muslim?
1. Yeah.
2. No, not really. He seems like he's probably one of those Cafeteria Christians, and probably goes to church for the same reason he doesn't smoke: Michelle badgers him about it. Obama does not strike as a True Believer. I am guessing you are getting at whether I think he's a secret Muslim: No.
3. Acceptable in what sense? It's not the behavior of polite society, so I don't support it.

I see. What gives you the impression that Michelle badgers him about going to church?

And by these criteria, I'm guessing you don't consider Donald Trump a Christian, either?

There was a good This American Life piece about Barack and Michelle and their former pastor Jeremiah Wright.

When his controversial sermons began to play on the news, it put them in a tight spot - either they didn't attend church all that regularly and didn't catch any of his radical sermons, or they listened to his radical sermons and came back every Sunday.

Knowing how skilled of a politician Obama is, his senate and presidential ambitions, how aware he is - it seems MUCH more likely they just didn't attend church very often. But that's a tough thing to admit, it makes it seem like you're not all that committed to your faith and by extension your values and principles.

I imagine Obama is probably a Christian in the way that I have come to be a Christian - embracing Christian values that are beneficial to oneself and society, but not necessarily literally/historically true.


Dabnasty

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #112 on: December 05, 2017, 08:23:30 AM »

No. I'm arguing that they need to use actual evidence to support a claim. The quoted text above is missing the original context, in which runbikerun said the following specifically about Trump's racism (with my responses in bold):

"-Claiming Obama wasn't really American. Was this motivated by Barack's race? If so, is he claiming all biracial people aren't American?
-Scapegoating Mexicans. Mexican isn't a race, it's a nationality
-Accusing Gonzalo Curiel of bias based on his ethnic heritage (which was defined by Paul Ryan as "the textbook definition of a racist comment.") Without looking into this at all, this one at least sounds like it could be racially motivated. His name sounding Hispanic and his parents being Hispanics from Mexico and all.
-Scapegoating Muslims. Muslims are not a race.
-Insulting a Gold Star family on the basis of their religion. Religion is not a race.
-Instituting a travel ban as one of his very first actions which specifically targeted Muslims. Muslims are not a race."

While I would agree that Trump is a bigoted prick, most of the stuff they listed has nothing to do with racism, and it runs the risk of their opponents (whomever they are) ignoring them because they didn't actually provide a list of evidence about Trump's racism.

It's getting surprising to me that people have so much of an issue with this concept.

Reposting my earlier comment as it was not directed at anyone and you may have missed it:

Race, Ethnicity and religion are distinct identifiers but they also have significant overlap. While being anti Muslim may not technically be racist, the majority of those who hold contempt for Muslims are also making judgments based on the color of their skin and where they were born. Among people I know racism and bigotry go hand in hand so it's hard not to see them as one in the same.

This comes into play with Obama's birth certificate and the conspiracy theory that he is a Muslim as well. If he was a white man, do you really think the birther conspiracy would have taken off the way it did? Certain people, who were in fact racist whether they know it or not, were looking for a way to discredit a black person and this was the answer. Others may have joined in because he was a democrat and not because of his skin color so yes, accusing everyone who believed the conspiracy of racism would be incorrect, but that feeling is not without basis.

So it's difficult enough to define race, but then we have the question of what is racism? I would imagine when someone is accused of being racist what they hear is "you think less of other races because of the color of their skin" to which they might respond "no I don't, that would be silly". But what the accuser really means is "you think less of a group of people based on what some people in that group have done and even worse based on what you think certain people in that group have done". For example I've had the conversation more than once where someone supports profiling of middle easterners by the TSA and says "well I'm not racist, I just think that we should search the people who are most likely to be terrorists". To them, their logic is sound but in reality there are no statistics to support that opinion. To me, the fact that they accepted the idea that middle easterners are more likely to be terrorists without doing the research to back it up does make them racist but in a much different way than just hating someone for their skin color/religion/ethnicity.

As someone mentioned earlier WE ARE ALL RACIST. Arguing about whether someone is or isn't racist is pointless because it's a sliding scale. Not only that, it's a 3-dimensional sliding scale.

I see no point in arguing the semantics around what is and isn't racist in the context of this discussion. Typically I'm all about precise definitions and drilling down to the real meaning of a word, but in this case racism and bigotry are essentially the same. They come from the same place (fear of the unknown/tribal identification) and they lead to the same results (unfair treatment of a group by our society.)

By your standards you might also argue that banning travelers from 7 majority Muslim countries isn't based on religion because only 90-99% of their populations are Muslim, what about the others?. But you do recall that even trump himself called it a Muslim ban. And even if it wasn't, then what? It's an ethnicity ban based on non-existent statistics of terrorism?

When trump and his followers refer to Mexican immigrants what do you picture? White Mexicans coming into the country illegally? He called Mexican immigrants as a group rapists and murderers and when he did so, no one was picturing anything other than a dark skinned Hispanic.

There's no need to distinguish between the types of bigotry because what he and many of his followers are guilty of is varying degrees of populism with a narrow definition of ordinary people. They define ordinary people as straight white Christians, preferably those born as citizens.

radram

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #113 on: December 05, 2017, 08:29:10 AM »
You can't really "drain the swamp" just by asserting it. You need to work within the existing power structures.

With all due respect, this is just outright false:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuGIgf-ICHM

radram

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #114 on: December 05, 2017, 08:41:42 AM »
Over 100 posts.

0 people who regret THEIR Trump vote (and a few who "Knew Someone" that did). I believe most Trump supporters truly believe he is taking on an incredible task, and that it will take time to get the results they desire. I think that is largely why so many presidents win re-election, regardless of their accomplishments the first 4 years.

I think the OP's question is answered for now. I think the same question posed 4 or 8 years from now would yield a better discussion.

Just Joe

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #115 on: December 05, 2017, 08:54:53 AM »
Your experience is really interesting for me and I have to admit that mine has been the opposite. I'm quite liberal but with a 90% very conservative, trump-voting family.

I have historically given my family the benefit of the doubt when it comes to voting for the current republican party - they are my family. I love them and obviously don't want to think of them as holding beliefs that are anathema to me .

But over the last year (and if I'm honest - the last several years) I have heard increasingly xenophobic and bigoted language coming from my loved ones. I'm having a hard time giving them the benefit of the doubt anymore. When folks (who ancestors for fought for the union in the civil war) begin to talk about "protecting our heritage" in the form of confederate flags or saying that the liberals in Charlottesville shouldn't have protested or (with the straw that broke this camel's back) called Obama "that arrogant black Muslim" I have to admit that there might be racism (or at least Xenophobia) at play here.

And by defending my family for years and saying that they are just strongly anti-abortion I feel like I haven't been doing anyone any favors. I am barely holding it together this holiday season.

Right there with you, StarBright. My two family members who voted for Trump are racist (birthers; believe POC shot by police deserve it; that BLM are a terrorist organization; that the Civil War wasn't about slavery and that some Black people were better off in the Confederacy), xenophobic ("build the wall!" with a delicious side of irony in that they both employ undocumented workers; want to kick out DACA students), and Islamophobic (explicitly want to marginalize/ban Muslim individuals; believe that Islam is a fundamentally violent religion). I don't know whether they've always held these repugnant views, but didn't feel comfortable expressing them until Trump and the far-right wing of the Republican party normalized it; or whether Trump et al. assisted in their bolt to the right. I could rattle off more examples for each of those categories, and don't have the emotional energy to dip my toe into the sludge of misogyny, homophobia, and transphobia.

Neither regrets voting for Trump. One is disappointed that he hasn't done more to drain the swamp/expel Muslims/etc, but he was never going to vote for that lying shrew Hillary. I've done my best to be empathetic and thoughtful and see things from their perspective, and I don't think all Trump voters are AS racist/Islamophobic/etc as the two that I'm closest to...but there's no way around the fact that every single Trump voter saw a campaign that was racist, Islamophobic, anti-disability, and misogynistic, and still voted for him. That's a tacit endorsement of those beliefs.

I was hopeful for most of my middle aged life that these bad behaviors and beliefs would "breed out" by the time I was an old man. I can see that this was ridiculously short sighted.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #116 on: December 05, 2017, 09:02:23 AM »
My biggest issue is that the democrats have no interest in me as a constituent.  I do better under republicans but I tend to care more about the social issues the democrats support like net neutrality and more progressive tax plans(even though it's worse for me). 

I have no interest in living in a wildly unfair society. 

but this straight non-minority gendered white male has no interest in voting for democrats until they start focusing on the core and stop playing identity politics.

What, exactly, are the Democrats doing wrong?

playing identity politics and focusing in smaller fringe groups instead of driving a national agenda.

These are broad generalizations.  I'm looking for specifics.
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Kris

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #117 on: December 05, 2017, 09:05:52 AM »
Over 100 posts.

0 people who regret THEIR Trump vote (and a few who "Knew Someone" that did). I believe most Trump supporters truly believe he is taking on an incredible task, and that it will take time to get the results they desire. I think that is largely why so many presidents win re-election, regardless of their accomplishments the first 4 years.

I think the OP's question is answered for now. I think the same question posed 4 or 8 years from now would yield a better discussion.

Maybe. I often wonder whether the people who supported Nixon ever changed their mind. I'm assuming many of them never did.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #118 on: December 05, 2017, 09:11:03 AM »
Smaller fringe groups like...women?  I think they're overdoing it on the transgender stuff, but most of the groups they've been focusing on are not exactly fringe.

in the attempt to big tent every specific group they've forgetting what it means to be American. 

Focusing on things that differentiate us instead of unite us.  It just sucks. 

What?  Is that not like the entire point of America?  Immigrants from all over the world coming together in one country and being allowed to live out their culture, religion, etc. in freedom?

Also, Democrats seem to focus on those who have not had the same opportunity as the upper class / wealthy - women, immigrants, minorities, LGBTQ...I'd rather my party fight for those folks (which, spoiler, is a majority of the country when taken as a whole) than a party who seems to be catering to rich white folks only.
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Dabnasty

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #119 on: December 05, 2017, 09:24:34 AM »
This thread was meant to be about individuals who voted for Trump and how they feel now. I'm still interested in having that conversation. I will do my best to not make blanket statements about his supporters because you are all individuals, however I will continue to point out his flaws and the fact that anyone who still supports him is overlooking those flaws.

To those suggesting that he hasn't passed racist policy, he doesn't need to. His campaign has caused damage to race relations since the beginning. The societal changes he has caused worry me more than any legal actions he has taken. Our government is made up of not only the laws we have in place, but the people and what is happening inside their heads. Our democracy may not be as representative as we would like but it is a representative democracy and what the people want matters.

When you convince people in our country that building a wall between us and our neighbors will fix low wages and stop the drug trade, you're lying to them. If that lie were to result in a wall being built the real consequences would a massive waste of money, damaged relationship with Mexico, Environmental damage, and countless legal battles with Texans who are not willing to give up the land needed to build the wall. Illegal immigrants would continue to fly into the country and both immigrants and drugs would continue to roll through checkpoints as they do everyday right now. Oh and the 60ft deep tunnels will continue to operate under that 6ft underground barrier he has touted.

Anyone who wants to argue that the wall isn't bigoted, let me hear you're thoughts. You may feel there are economic and safety reasons to support the wall and that is what we should be discussing. If we can come to the conclusion that those reasons are not legitimate and you still support the wall, now I have to believe it is a matter of bigotry.

Wexler

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #120 on: December 05, 2017, 09:35:19 AM »
My biggest issue is that the democrats have no interest in me as a constituent.  I do better under republicans but I tend to care more about the social issues the democrats support like net neutrality and more progressive tax plans(even though it's worse for me). 

I have no interest in living in a wildly unfair society. 

but this straight non-minority gendered white male has no interest in voting for democrats until they start focusing on the core and stop playing identity politics.

What, exactly, are the Democrats doing wrong?

playing identity politics and focusing in smaller fringe groups instead of driving a national agenda.

These are broad generalizations.  I'm looking for specifics.

Me too.  If Democrats won't give you a tickle, what is a tickle to you?

1. What specific actions did Democrats take that alienated you?  Not just a feeling, but actual events.
2. What specific actions did Trump take that reassured you, despite your general disagreement with his policies, that you-as a white man-were in better hands even if he pursued policies that you don't like?
3. What actions and policy position can a political party take that means they aren't "forgetting what it means to be an American"?
4. What policy positions focus on things that unite us?  What actions focus on things that unite us?
5. Would you rather vote for someone who said things you like but did things you didn't like or the opposite?

acroy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #121 on: December 05, 2017, 09:53:22 AM »
Where's OP?
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bacchi

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #122 on: December 05, 2017, 09:58:40 AM »
Over 100 posts.

0 people who regret THEIR Trump vote (and a few who "Knew Someone" that did). I believe most Trump supporters truly believe he is taking on an incredible task, and that it will take time to get the results they desire. I think that is largely why so many presidents win re-election, regardless of their accomplishments the first 4 years.

I think the OP's question is answered for now. I think the same question posed 4 or 8 years from now would yield a better discussion.

Having it in writing makes it harder to retract.

If it's only words, there's some deniability.

Dad circa 1973: "Well, I supported Vietnam but then I became uneasy with it pretty quickly."
Son: "...(That's not how I remember it, dad.)"

Now, with a written record, it's much harder to eat crow. It takes courage to admit being wrong and even more courage to admit being 100% wrong.

In other words, even if he's impeached for taking personal Russian loans in trade for reduced sanctions, it'll still be some mass liberal/Hillary/Podesta/Obama conspiracy.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 10:08:39 AM by bacchi »

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #123 on: December 05, 2017, 10:13:32 AM »
To answer acroy's question, here is OP:

I appreciate everyone's responses thus far.  It has been a tumulterous time this past year, and I'm doing my best to try to "listen" to those who may a have a difference of opinion than mine.  Perhaps most importantly, I'm trying to see if circumstances are not what you expected, does this change one's mind--or has politics become so "tribal" that there is never any room for such a change...

Fwiw, last logged in ~18 hours ago - seems like PP could be back soon.
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GuitarStv

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #124 on: December 05, 2017, 11:31:04 AM »
Where's OP?

Swinging around New York rooftops I expect.

cliffhanger

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #125 on: December 05, 2017, 05:49:24 PM »
Hey Dabnasty, I did want to address this, as I was one of posters talking about racist policy.

I absolutely agree that words and rhetoric have an impact, and Trump has no tact. I'm sure most of us would say that race relations in the US have been on the decline for several years. But why do we think this? Is there some metric we can base this decline off of? What has caused the tension? What is the solution? I can't give you a solid answer on any of these questions, and the answers are likely pretty complicated. This is why I point to something real and understandable as a policy that disproportionately and intentionally harms others, so we have a defined issue that we can fight together.

I know this is a pretty high bar to set, but it's the best real solution I can think of. I'd wager that minorities trapped in generational poverty, what I think is the largest racial issue in the country, is not driven by rhetoric. It's driven by policy of city, states, and federal government, in that order. This is why I weigh Trump's actions by 80% and his words by 20%.

I do disagree with the logic behind a couple of your statements; I hope we can discuss.

His campaign has caused damage to race relations since the beginning. The societal changes he has caused worry me more than any legal actions he has taken. Our government is made up of not only the laws we have in place, but the people and what is happening inside their heads.

I would argue that the problem is two fold. Trump says something that's offensive and controversial. The media assigns the worst possible racist motive to his statements and takes it out of context. I think his feud with Rep. Frederica Wilson over a phone call to a slain soldier's widow is a good example of this. Rep. Wilson began by suggesting Trump was uncaring and the soldier "knew what he signed up for, but I guess it still hurts." So, with only that quote from a politically charged, showboating Rep, most media outlets assign the best possible motive to Rep. Wilson and the worst possible motive to Trump. Then, of course, Trump attacks back, and it turns into a shit-show of stupidity. Charging this instance, no matter how stupid on Trump's part, as racism does really harm us culturally. I want to fight racism as much as you, but it harms the cause when we assign racism to everything. That white kid who shot up a church is racist. We could argue that the police officer who shot a black man in the back was motivated by racism. We don't care about these anymore because everything's racist.

OK, so that was longer and more rambling than I intended. I guess the gist of my argument is that I think you don't have the complete picture. Damage to race relations did not get set in motion by Trump's campaign. A large part, but not all, of this damage does come from unjustly charging Trump of racism without evidence. It will not stop until we take feelings completely out of the argument and point to actual racism that we can fight together.

Peter Parker

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #126 on: December 05, 2017, 06:38:16 PM »
Where's OP?

Swinging around New York rooftops I expect.

I'm here.  I wanted to ask an honest question about whether anyone regretted their vote for republicans (Trump).  A few brave souls came forward and said they didn't.  No one personally said they regretted voting republican and/or for Trump.

I'm guess I'm not surprised--If someone did regret it, I suppose it would be hard to admit that (but IMHO very brave). I have tried to stay out of it because I didn't want to muddy the waters and I was genuinely curious.  I guess I got my answer.

I have some feelings about it and I would be happy to share them, but I was really more concerned about YOUR rationale....It has been very enlightening--and I appreciate the answers.  Thank You!

JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #127 on: December 05, 2017, 06:42:49 PM »
Where's OP?

Swinging around New York rooftops I expect.

I'm here.  I wanted to ask an honest question about whether anyone regretted their vote for republicans (Trump).  A few brave souls came forward and said they didn't.  No one personally said they regretted voting republican and/or for Trump.

I'm guess I'm not surprised--If someone did regret it, I suppose it would be hard to admit that (but IMHO very brave). I have tried to stay out of it because I didn't want to muddy the waters and I was genuinely curious.  I guess I got my answer.

I have some feelings about it and I would be happy to share them, but I was really more concerned about YOUR rationale....It has been very enlightening--and I appreciate the answers.  Thank You!

His approval rate is holding fairly steady between 37-38%. Given that 26% of registered voters voted for Trump, few people having regrets doesn't surprise me all that much.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

zoltani

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #128 on: December 05, 2017, 06:53:50 PM »
I sure as hell didn't vote Trump, but I can answer the question put forth about how the democrats have alienated me. Before the election Obama, who I voted for, made a speech where he stated that if you were not going to vote for Hillary and you were male then you should ask yourself if you're sexist. That rhetoric really put me off of the democrats. That's the identity politics that is being referred to. Add to that the moral superiority and their penchant for calling anything they don't agree with racist, sexist, bigoted, etc. Of course, that could not drive me to vote for trump, but it solidified the fact that I did not want to vote for Hilary.

Now we not only have increased tension between races but also increased tension between the sexes. It is almost as if something systematic and sinister is going on behind the scenes to divide us, hmm.

Racial tensions are getting worse and worse, to the point where a university newspaper publishes an insanely racist article:

“Whiteness will be over because we want it to be. And when it dies, there will be millions of cultural zombies aimlessly wandering across a vastly changed landscape. Ontologically speaking, white death will mean liberation for all… Until then, remember this: I hate you because you shouldn’t exist. You are both the dominant apparatus on the planet and the void in which all other cultures, upon meeting you, die.”



This will not end well.

sol

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #129 on: December 05, 2017, 07:28:51 PM »
“Whiteness will be over because we want it to be. And when it dies, there will be millions of cultural zombies aimlessly wandering across a vastly changed landscape. Ontologically speaking, white death will mean liberation for all… Until then, remember this: I hate you because you shouldn’t exist. You are both the dominant apparatus on the planet and the void in which all other cultures, upon meeting you, die.”

Ooooh, looks like we have a two-fer and I get to add zoltani to my list of unfavorite forum posters.  First you disparage sexual assault victims as liars and then you disparage oppressed minorities as racists?  That's fantastic!  I no longer have to wonder, because you're clearly an ugly person!

Here's the cliffnotes version for you in case you're unclear on whether you're a racist:  do you recognize that centuries of systemic oppression of racial and ethnic minorities has resulted in a society in which white people were given preferential treatment, which still echoes today?  Do you think academic affirmative action is a sin even though black people still make 70% of what white people do?  Do you believe this pay gap is due to black people's natural inferiority?

Just because some aggrieved uni journalist major once wrote an article expressing their frustration at systemic racism in American culture does not mean that there is a great conspiracy to tear down white people.  There IS a social movement toward merit-based rewards, where people are judged by their abilities and not their skin color.  Do you see the difference?


sol will be totally offline for most of June 2018.  You cannot reach me.  You will not hear from me.  I am not dead, just away from civilization.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #130 on: December 05, 2017, 07:42:48 PM »
Voted for Harambe, zero ragrets ;)

Wexler

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #131 on: December 05, 2017, 08:31:49 PM »
Some regret:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Trumpgret/comments/7hpnxd/i_didnt_vote_for_trump_but_i_didnt_stop_his/

So...this guy voted for Trump because he was triggered when Obama talked about helping "Johnny as well as Jamal" find jobs.  He literally saw including what was meant to be a white guy and a black guy together-both needing jobs, both acknowledged-as being an attack on white people and him.

How do you fix that mindset?  I'm reminded of the poster who says that democrats threw him aside for being a white man.  Is this the sort of thing he meant? To me, this is a classic: when you are used to privilege, equality looks like oppression.  The unemployment rate for black men is higher than for white men, and there's our president saying we've got to help BOTH of them.  What's the problem? Do you want him to say helping "person x of indeterminate race and gender" find a job?  Because that sounds like the SJW PC stuff you guys are supposed to hate.

palerider1858

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #132 on: December 05, 2017, 11:18:22 PM »
Some regret:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Trumpgret/comments/7hpnxd/i_didnt_vote_for_trump_but_i_didnt_stop_his/

So...this guy voted for Trump because he was triggered when Obama talked about helping "Johnny as well as Jamal" find jobs.  He literally saw including what was meant to be a white guy and a black guy together-both needing jobs, both acknowledged-as being an attack on white people and him.

How do you fix that mindset?  I'm reminded of the poster who says that democrats threw him aside for being a white man.  Is this the sort of thing he meant? To me, this is a classic: when you are used to privilege, equality looks like oppression.  The unemployment rate for black men is higher than for white men, and there's our president saying we've got to help BOTH of them.  What's the problem? Do you want him to say helping "person x of indeterminate race and gender" find a job?  Because that sounds like the SJW PC stuff you guys are supposed to hate.
Is this post from a Mustachian and therefore applicable?

partgypsy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #133 on: December 06, 2017, 06:23:34 AM »
I respectfully disagree with you cliffhanger, that  "a large part, but not all, of this damage does come from unjustly charging Trump of racism without evidence. It will not stop until we take feelings completely out of the argument and point to actual racism that we can fight together." I think there is plenty of evidence that previously the Democratic party, and then at some point Republicans inflamed racial divisions, in both their rhetoric, policies and also jerrymanding to win elections. There is a ton of evidence of this, which as I'm at work I can't cite, but you can dip your toes in by looking at robocalls and mailings done which were funded by Karl Rove. In the state I am in (NC) the jerrymanding done to increase Republican control by having African American votes be concentrated or split depending on what would work, was so bad it was declared unconstitutional. However it didn't undo the election results and we are still dealing with it. Democrats, by saying that everyone in this country should have access to good education, healthcare, jobs, etc is NOT racist. It's what this country stands for. That politicians who say it is not a level playing field are simply pointing out the obvious. Don't shoot the messenger.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/05/trump-butler-anthony-senecal-facebook-kill-obama/#
I don't need any additional evidence that Trump is actively hostile and contemptuous to anyone who is not like him. The whole Obama is from Kenya should be enough for anyone. Or that the KKK endorsed him as a candidate. Or the lawsuits. Or the people he favors, such as his longtime butler Anthony Senecal whom he kept on even after his incredibly racist comments were publicized. Or Steven Bannon who said at the 2016 Republican Convention "We are the party of the alt-right."  If you don't understand why a huge percentage of the US population feels alienated by having Trump be in office, not sure I can help you. I think it's more Trump supporters do understand, and either don't care, or share the same views. 
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 06:30:10 AM by partgypsy »

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #134 on: December 06, 2017, 07:07:51 AM »
I sure as hell didn't vote Trump, but I can answer the question put forth about how the democrats have alienated me. Before the election Obama, who I voted for, made a speech where he stated that if you were not going to vote for Hillary and you were male then you should ask yourself if you're sexist. That rhetoric really put me off of the democrats. That's the identity politics that is being referred to. Add to that the moral superiority and their penchant for calling anything they don't agree with racist, sexist, bigoted, etc. Of course, that could not drive me to vote for trump, but it solidified the fact that I did not want to vote for Hilary.

Now we not only have increased tension between races but also increased tension between the sexes. It is almost as if something systematic and sinister is going on behind the scenes to divide us, hmm.

You know what's increased tension between the sexes?  A decades (centuries?) long domination of one sex over the other.  I cannot point to any greater evidence than the #MeToo movement with thousands of women sharing their stories of sexual assault and sexual harassment.  Look at how many power guys in various industries are now being called out for sexual misconduct and losing their jobs - film/television, journalism, music, politics (save for...wait for it...Donald Trump and Roy Moore.  What do those two have in common?  Hmmm), etc.

If you think women in all walks of life experiencing sexual misconduct and thinking, "wow, this is some effed up **** that I don't like and I don't want anyone else to have to experience it" is "something systematic and sinister is going on behind the scenes to divide us" I can't help you.
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Dabnasty

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #135 on: December 06, 2017, 07:30:29 AM »
Hey Dabnasty, I did want to address this, as I was one of posters talking about racist policy.

I absolutely agree that words and rhetoric have an impact, and Trump has no tact. I'm sure most of us would say that race relations in the US have been on the decline for several years. But why do we think this? Is there some metric we can base this decline off of? What has caused the tension? What is the solution? I can't give you a solid answer on any of these questions, and the answers are likely pretty complicated. This is why I point to something real and understandable as a policy that disproportionately and intentionally harms others, so we have a defined issue that we can fight together.

I know this is a pretty high bar to set, but it's the best real solution I can think of. I'd wager that minorities trapped in generational poverty, what I think is the largest racial issue in the country, is not driven by rhetoric. It's driven by policy of city, states, and federal government, in that order. This is why I weigh Trump's actions by 80% and his words by 20%.

I do disagree with the logic behind a couple of your statements; I hope we can discuss.

His campaign has caused damage to race relations since the beginning. The societal changes he has caused worry me more than any legal actions he has taken. Our government is made up of not only the laws we have in place, but the people and what is happening inside their heads.

I would argue that the problem is two fold. Trump says something that's offensive and controversial. The media assigns the worst possible racist motive to his statements and takes it out of context. I think his feud with Rep. Frederica Wilson over a phone call to a slain soldier's widow is a good example of this. Rep. Wilson began by suggesting Trump was uncaring and the soldier "knew what he signed up for, but I guess it still hurts." So, with only that quote from a politically charged, showboating Rep, most media outlets assign the best possible motive to Rep. Wilson and the worst possible motive to Trump. Then, of course, Trump attacks back, and it turns into a shit-show of stupidity. Charging this instance, no matter how stupid on Trump's part, as racism does really harm us culturally. I want to fight racism as much as you, but it harms the cause when we assign racism to everything. That white kid who shot up a church is racist. We could argue that the police officer who shot a black man in the back was motivated by racism. We don't care about these anymore because everything's racist.

OK, so that was longer and more rambling than I intended. I guess the gist of my argument is that I think you don't have the complete picture. Damage to race relations did not get set in motion by Trump's campaign. A large part, but not all, of this damage does come from unjustly charging Trump of racism without evidence. It will not stop until we take feelings completely out of the argument and point to actual racism that we can fight together.

I would agree that Trump did not suddenly create the racial tension we have today but I'm also not sure I would agree that race relations have been on the decline. Like you said it's more a matter of what the media decides to report on and we have no metric to measure. And yes, I do blame anti trump media for overplaying the small things but on the other hand he's said plenty of and done plenty of horrible things that are just as horrible in context. Do you really feel that touting a Muslim ban is taken out of context? Or calling Mexicans immigrants rapists and murderers? There are so many examples in this thread, most of which I don't feel are overplayed.

There's a tactic to create negative feelings toward a group of people that trump and the right wing media in particular uses everyday (again, not just trump but he has legitimized the feelings that already existed). When Fox News and even more so online outlets like Breitbart find every case in the US where an illegal immigrant, transgender person, gay person, or Muslim has committed a crime and report on it as if it is national news, that leads people who consume that media to believe it is the norm. There may have been 1,000 other murders that day, some of them against one of these groups, but that's not the message they want to send.

Your comment on the media blowing every little thing up as racist has some merit but if you are getting that message through a right-leaning news outlet, remember that they are going to take the worst examples of everything. Much like they pick out the minorities who commit crimes they will pick out the ridiculous news sources like Daily KOS, Rachel Maddow and even celebrities who don't know shit and they'll assign everything they say to the "liberals". For the record I don't take those sources seriously at all. They do whine too much. That doesn't mean everyone who is anti-trump is whining along with them.

This topic is broad enough that it's tough to stay on track but I would like to add one more thing. During the campaign trump tweeted an info graphic (terrible little things) claiming that 81% of whites murdered in 2015 were killed by blacks and other completely false statistics on murder. The real number is 15% and most of those were people who knew each other so it wasn't the mugger in an alley scenario that he's trying to scare us with. Even if the stats were accurate this is not something a president should be doing. What purpose does it serve? to get people riled up and scared? But it wasn't true. He, as a person who has followers who take what he says as fact while discounting anyone who disagrees now have another little "fact" to fuel their hatred.

http://www.factcheck.org/2015/11/trump-retweets-bogus-crime-graphic/

Trump is a classic example of a fear mongering politician. Lot's of politicians (and the media) are guilty of using this tactic and it is insidious but trump has taken it to another level. I think we would all benefit from trying to better understand our own psychology but just as a start I would recommend some research on why fear mongering is so effective.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fearmongering
https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2012/10/why-are-political-ads-so-frightening.html
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 08:54:18 AM by Dabnasty »

Spiritual_Lobotomy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #136 on: December 06, 2017, 09:56:48 AM »
I didn't vote Republican, but here are some thoughts in response to your list

1:  I am FI, dropping the ACA Mandate will actually be less of a cost Burden for us and our situation.  I dont care either way
2:  I dont support the Plan, but the plan is better for us in terms of keeping more of what we earn
3:  What about Trump Russia?  Doesn't really bother me
4:  I never needed consumer protection.  We live pretty frugal
5:  Not worried
6:  Politics has always lowered the bar.... what did you expect!?  Both sides are trying to win, not be noble
7:  Not worried
8:  This is much deeper a problem than "because Republicans are in office"
9:  Cant really say since I am not a woman, however I asked my wife a self made accomplished business woman  she doesn't know what all the fuss is about.....

zoltani

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #137 on: December 06, 2017, 10:07:36 AM »
“Whiteness will be over because we want it to be. And when it dies, there will be millions of cultural zombies aimlessly wandering across a vastly changed landscape. Ontologically speaking, white death will mean liberation for all… Until then, remember this: I hate you because you shouldn’t exist. You are both the dominant apparatus on the planet and the void in which all other cultures, upon meeting you, die.”

Ooooh, looks like we have a two-fer and I get to add zoltani to my list of unfavorite forum posters.  First you disparage sexual assault victims as liars and then you disparage oppressed minorities as racists?  That's fantastic!  I no longer have to wonder, because you're clearly an ugly person!

Here's the cliffnotes version for you in case you're unclear on whether you're a racist:  do you recognize that centuries of systemic oppression of racial and ethnic minorities has resulted in a society in which white people were given preferential treatment, which still echoes today?  Do you think academic affirmative action is a sin even though black people still make 70% of what white people do?  Do you believe this pay gap is due to black people's natural inferiority?

Just because some aggrieved uni journalist major once wrote an article expressing their frustration at systemic racism in American culture does not mean that there is a great conspiracy to tear down white people.  There IS a social movement toward merit-based rewards, where people are judged by their abilities and not their skin color.  Do you see the difference?

Thanks sol, it's an honor to be on your list of deplorables, your morals are clearly superior to mine.

I think that calling an entire race's DNA an abomination and saying that they shold not exist is racist. Those are. some serious mental gymnastics you use to say that it's not. I would say the same of the article was about any race. The fact that the article even made it to press is indicative of a larger issue on college campuses. It has been retracted and called racist by the university president. Of course the author shares the same sentiment as you, that it can't be racist because it's about white people.

I heard about the article from reading an essay about it written by a minority.
http://quillette.com/2017/12/05/racism-disguised-anti-racism/


There is a backlash to this kind of stuff, like trumps rise to power and more white supremacists groups. It's the same thing Alan watts was describing in one of his talks. I've posted this before, but I will again.

"In any foreseeable future there are going to be thousands and thousands of people who detest and abominate Negroes, communists, Russians, Chinese, Jews, Catholics, beatniks, homosexuals, and "dope-fiends." These hatreds are not going to be healed, but only inflamed, by insulting those who feel them, and the abusive labels with which we plaster them—squares, fascists, rightists, know-nothings—may well become the proud badges and symbols around which they will rally and consolidate themselves. Nor will it do to confront the opposition in public with polite and nonviolent sit-ins and demonstrations, while boosting our collective ego by insulting them in private. If we want justice for minorities and cooled wars with our natural enemies, whether human or non-human, we must first come to terms with the minority and the enemy in ourselves and in our own hearts, for the rascal is there as much as anywhere in the "external" world—-especially when you realize that the world outside your skin is as much yourself as the world inside. For want of this awareness, no one can be more belligerent than a pacifist on the rampage, or more militantly nationalistic than an anti-imperialist."
Alan Watts

Rimu05

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #138 on: December 06, 2017, 10:45:10 AM »
I'm pretty sure race relations have never been good. Perhaps because we are prone to only viewing ourselves based on the era and bubble we live in, we think that race relations have gone down. There's that SNL sketch with Dave Chappelle and Chris Rock on election night.

I think 8 years after Obama made us forget the early stages. I still remember people protesting with monkey signs.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #139 on: December 06, 2017, 11:12:47 AM »
I didn't vote Republican, but here are some thoughts in response to your list

1:  I am FI, dropping the ACA Mandate will actually be less of a cost Burden for us and our situation.  I dont care either way
2:  I dont support the Plan, but the plan is better for us in terms of keeping more of what we earn
3:  What about Trump Russia?  Doesn't really bother me
4:  I never needed consumer protection.  We live pretty frugal
5:  Not worried
6:  Politics has always lowered the bar.... what did you expect!?  Both sides are trying to win, not be noble
7:  Not worried
8:  This is much deeper a problem than "because Republicans are in office"
9:  Cant really say since I am not a woman, however I asked my wife a self made accomplished business woman  she doesn't know what all the fuss is about.....

No offense, but you can't stick your head in a sand and have these issues go away.  That may not be what you're doing but it seems like it.

For many of us, the "doesn't impact me" rationale isn't enough when you look at the groups of people who are going to lose.  You know, caring about other citizens.

Not sure what OP meant by "women's issues/rights" but I'm guessing the wage gap, general sexual misconduct going unnoticed, unreported, or not believed for various reasons further worsening the workplace for women, certain employers now being able to deny birth control being included in their health insurance, etc.
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Aelias

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #140 on: December 06, 2017, 12:36:23 PM »
I'm amused that pretty much all the financial benefits of Trump's "election" have basically gone to Clinton's voters. Now that he's basically defunded the ACA and killed his own constituents' health insurance to give tax cuts to corporations, Clinton's college-educated white collar investor voters with employer-provided insurance get to enjoy larger dividends. I don't think Trump's voters really thought through what they were doing.

Not so sure about that one . . .

https://www.vanityfair.com/newsletter/2017/12/trump-crony-admits-tax-plan-is-an-elaborate-middle-finger-to-liberals

bacchi

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #141 on: December 06, 2017, 12:50:05 PM »
I think that calling an entire race's DNA an abomination and saying that they shold not exist is racist. Those are. some serious mental gymnastics you use to say that it's not. I would say the same of the article was about any race. The fact that the article even made it to press is indicative of a larger issue on college campuses. It has been retracted and called racist by the university president. Of course the author shares the same sentiment as you, that it can't be racist because it's about white people.

I agree that it's a racist article but it's a college newspaper. Having worked in one when I was in school, the editorial department goes out of their way to be inflammatory. It's one way to engage otherwise apathetic students.

Realistically, it in no way represents the college, newspaper, and probably not even the author (it's most likely an extreme version of the author's views). To even give it a second thought is a waste of time and the fretting over it is amusing ("OMG! Liberals are anti-white people!!!111!").

TexasRunner

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #142 on: December 06, 2017, 01:02:04 PM »
It's an honest question.  I'm really curious as to whether anyone voted republican and now regrets it because:

1.  Gutting of ACA and how it effects your FIRE plans...
2.  The republican tax plan
3.  Trump/Russia
4.  Less consumer protection (deregulation)
5.  Korea
6.  General lack of decorum
7.  Environmental issues/climate change issues
8.  Racial/religious (Muslim) tensions
9.  Women's rights/issues

I'm actually curious.  And I'm wondering if you will vote differently next time?


1.  Gutting of ACA and how it effects your FIRE plans...
I fall into the "Family Glitch" that Obama blatantly refused to fix even though he had the ability, so F#%$ ACA and Obamacare.  My premiums rose 382% across three years and I wasn't eligble for subsidies.  Burn ACA to the ground and lets build something completely from scratch (I know thats a pipe dream).  (FYI, My family and I are currently Cash Payments for medical without insurance.  I paid over 60,000$ in the last 5 years in insurance premiums but only used 28,000$ worth of benefits, including a (1) car wreck, (2) MRI of DW's lower back when we might have found a tumor, (3) couple of stomach X-rays (because kids, thats why), and (4) a broken collarbone.  Had I made cash payments, I would have been at least 25,000$ ahead.)

If you don't know about the family glitch, it really is something that you should understand if you support ACA:  https://www.centerforhealthjournalism.org/2016/04/27/family-trapped-aca-glaring-family-glitch-life-gets-harder

2.  The republican tax plan
Great.  Cut spending and cut taxes.  I would prefer true overhaul (complete repeal and replace) with something more of a % based system with no deductions, but I don't mind this.  Senate plan buts AMT back in for corporations so many of the deductions / exemptions for corporations are now baselines at 20%.  I would like to see more loopholes closed, but overall dont mind the changes.  (FYI, I don't recall hear Dems clamoring for loopholes to be closed in 2007 or 2015...)

Also I would like to see reductions in defense spending (especially overrunning D&D projects), consolidation of resources, and us not policing the world or giving away humanitarian aid at the federal level....  But the only party pushing for that is Libertarian (mostly) and they don't stand a chance under the current system.

3.  Trump/Russia
Don't care.  You are going to have to prove to me that actual laws were broken or known to be broken by the POTUS for me to care.  Any Dems here care about Obama's gun running scandal (Fast and Furious)?  Laws were broken there too.

4.  Less consumer protection (deregulation)
Great.  I work in industries where regulations are stifling growth and many don't even actually help with overall greenhouse gas emissions but instead forwards them to up-front costs in lieu of life-of-product costs.  One example being the 2015 IECC which is absolute garbage.

5.  Korea
Complicated.  NK is not going to willingly give up nuclear capabilities and it is my understanding that Clinton would have handled it exactly the same way (giving up nukes being the precondition to negotiations).  I think she would actually be more hawkish than Trump.  Also, saber-rattling is the name of the game over there, I think the leadership knows that.  If NK actually decides to do a Pacific Air-Burst Nuke Test, we might be having a different conversation.  Either way, I don't find this to be a minus for Trump because I'm thinking he is handling it the same or better than Clinton would have.

6.  General lack of decorum
Don't like it but I understand it.  A TON of people have been getting real tired of Political Correctness, and I see this as an obvious blowback.

7.  Environmental issues/climate change issues
Paris Accords are useless politically as long as Texas is strangled by regulation and Mexico's air passes right over the border (which is still the case).  Kill it and let innovation start taking care of emissions problems.

8.  Racial/religious (Muslim) tensions
It is my understanding that predominantly, a complete view of Islam (from within) is incompatible with American system of government.  Albeit there are different views, and one could say the same for Christianity's end-game Theocracy, I do think Islam has more specific inconsistencies with our system of government that prevent it from being compatible...   Either way, I don't blame Trump for American insistence on setting up dictators and f#$%ing up the rest of the world.  Travel ban or not, that is a problem that no one else seems to be discussing or willing to fix.

9.  Women's rights/issues
Saying some inappropriate things in a private setting years ago doesn't deter me or change my opinion.  Other than that, I don't see any other rights that have changed or degraded...  Still waiting on someone to point some out.


Don't regret my vote despite what I think of Trump's character.
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bacchi

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #143 on: December 06, 2017, 01:12:06 PM »
3.  Trump/Russia
Don't care.  You are going to have to prove to me that actual laws were broken or known to be broken by the POTUS for me to care.

??? That's why we have a Special Counsel investigating it.

Quote
Any Dems here care about Obama's gun running scandal (Fast and Furious)?  Laws were broken there too.

What's Obama got to do with Trump and Russia collusion? He's no longer the sitting President; Trump is.

Is this a quid pro quo ("I'll care if you care")? False equivalency?

Spiritual_Lobotomy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #144 on: December 06, 2017, 01:19:14 PM »
I didn't vote Republican, but here are some thoughts in response to your list

1:  I am FI, dropping the ACA Mandate will actually be less of a cost Burden for us and our situation.  I dont care either way
2:  I dont support the Plan, but the plan is better for us in terms of keeping more of what we earn
3:  What about Trump Russia?  Doesn't really bother me
4:  I never needed consumer protection.  We live pretty frugal
5:  Not worried
6:  Politics has always lowered the bar.... what did you expect!?  Both sides are trying to win, not be noble
7:  Not worried
8:  This is much deeper a problem than "because Republicans are in office"
9:  Cant really say since I am not a woman, however I asked my wife a self made accomplished business woman  she doesn't know what all the fuss is about.....

No offense, but you can't stick your head in a sand and have these issues go away.  That may not be what you're doing but it seems like it.

For many of us, the "doesn't impact me" rationale isn't enough when you look at the groups of people who are going to lose.  You know, caring about other citizens.

Not sure what OP meant by "women's issues/rights" but I'm guessing the wage gap, general sexual misconduct going unnoticed, unreported, or not believed for various reasons further worsening the workplace for women, certain employers now being able to deny birth control being included in their health insurance, etc.

says the credit pusher........

acroy

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #145 on: December 06, 2017, 01:26:05 PM »
Where's OP?

Swinging around New York rooftops I expect.

I'm here.  I wanted to ask an honest question about whether anyone regretted their vote for republicans (Trump).  A few brave souls came forward and said they didn't.  No one personally said they regretted voting republican and/or for Trump.

I'm guess I'm not surprised--If someone did regret it, I suppose it would be hard to admit that (but IMHO very brave). I have tried to stay out of it because I didn't want to muddy the waters and I was genuinely curious.  I guess I got my answer.

I have some feelings about it and I would be happy to share them, but I was really more concerned about YOUR rationale....It has been very enlightening--and I appreciate the answers.  Thank You!
Thanks for starting the thread OP, interesting question & some interesting responses. Too bad the non-Trump voters who hafta be heard polluted it up, made it hard to sift through.
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BigHaus89

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #146 on: December 06, 2017, 01:29:53 PM »
Thank you Trump-voters for taking the time to answer. This has been very informative for me.

Gin1984

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #147 on: December 06, 2017, 01:41:23 PM »
To those in this thread piling on and attacking Trump voters, you're defeating what I believe was OP's purpose of having a real discussion. If all you want to do is attack, start your own thread. I understand the frustration you feel but all you're doing is playing whack-a-mole with anyone who dares peek their head out of the ground to have an honest conversation. Even if someone's reasoning is flawed, you need to understand it before you can debate it.


I've voted republican all my life but couldn't do it this time.  I ended up voting for Gary Johnson. 

My biggest issue is that the democrats have no interest in me as a constituent.  I do better under republicans but I tend to care more about the social issues the democrats support like net neutrality and more progressive tax plans(even though it's worse for me). 

I have no interest in living in a wildly unfair society. 

but this straight non-minority gendered white male has no interest in voting for democrats until they start focusing on the core and stop playing identity politics.
I'd honestly like to hear more from you, as a democrat.  When you say identity politics, what do you mean exactly?  To me, the Dems (myself included) are just saying that everyone should get a level playing field, and admitting that right now not everyone is.  I believe in equality but to do so, we need to be exact when we call out inequality.  Is there something else that you see as an outsider?

JLee

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #148 on: December 06, 2017, 01:46:59 PM »
3.  Trump/Russia
Don't care.  You are going to have to prove to me that actual laws were broken or known to be broken by the POTUS for me to care.  Any Dems here care about Obama's gun running scandal (Fast and Furious)?  Laws were broken there too.

1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

2) Watch this. Watch this from 6:12 to 8:52.

TexasRunner

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Re: Does Anyone Regret Voting Republican?
« Reply #149 on: December 06, 2017, 02:05:49 PM »
3.  Trump/Russia
Don't care.  You are going to have to prove to me that actual laws were broken or known to be broken by the POTUS for me to care.  Any Dems here care about Obama's gun running scandal (Fast and Furious)?  Laws were broken there too.

1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

2) Watch this. Watch this from 6:12 to 8:52.

This is inaccurate because I did refute the point. 

Quote
Don't care.  You are going to have to prove to me that actual laws were broken or known to be broken by the POTUS for me to care.

Besides, I was stating my position rather than refuting something or presenting a counter-argument.

You are trying to dissent my statement regarding the "whataboutism" while refusing to acknowledge that ACTUAL point I made, as in nothing is proven yet.
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