Coronavirus is the End of Trump

[talltexan]

Many of the ones I've met in this group own (small) businesses.

[ctuser1]

Many of the ones I've met in this group own (small) businesses.

Yes, they are very important for the specific, local economy.

How important are those specific local economies to the US economy?
Some stats: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2016/11/29/another-clinton-trump-divide-high-output-america-vs-low-output-america/

I could not find specific economic projections - but from the charts and lists it seems to me that one-third of GDP represented by "Trump Counties" are also primarily declining ones. So, if the trend from 2000->2016 continues, the "trump counties" will likely be no  more than a fourth or a fifth of the GDP (this is entirely a "gut feel statement" without numbers backing it up to any degree of rigor).

My point is, the economic importance of those "40%" that you cite is much less than their "40% share of electorate" would seem to imply.

[talltexan]

This is good data analysis, particularly the growth piece. I wonder whether looking at the blue counties wouldn't yield the result that the wealthier people IN those blue counties tend to still support Republicans? (with the counties being blue because those wealthy supporters are few in number)

[ctuser1]

This is good data analysis, particularly the growth piece. I wonder whether looking at the blue counties wouldn't yield the result that the wealthier people IN those blue counties tend to still support Republicans? (with the counties being blue because those wealthy supporters are few in number)

It is difficult to get a handle on the actual data.

My gut feel - it is unlikely in the coastal areas that the wealthier people are closet Trump supporters.

Trump supporters fall in two categories where I live (CT) and work (Manhattan):
1. Non college educated people. Think plumbers, builders etc. While some of them can be wealthy, the average is anything but in places where 100k is considered a lower-middle-class income.
2. A few of the higher income people, more to stand out as contrarians.

Vast majority of your typical, run-of-the-mill doctors, engineers, bankers profess to have a deep dislike for Trumpism.

It is, of course, always possible that some of those typical run-of-the-mill upper middle class people hide their true feelings. I think the best substitute is to take the actual voting numbers in all the different counties in 2018 election. That would not paint a good picture for Trumpism in these states.

But, even if for argument's sake the wealthy people in the coastal areas were actually closet trump supporters, I doubt they would think we are in a recession any time a democrat is a president. After all, they are used to living under a liberal state government, and a population that tends to be very liberal. So, it seems plausible that they are not relevant for the specific discussion at hand.
 

[skp]

there's also the 40% of the country who simply believe it's a recession whenever the person in the White House has a D after his name.

How much do they contribute economically? To the GDP?

When you talk about contributing economically GDP  I'm not sure what you are getting at here.  What is your point?  Do you mean do they own stock? That they are business owners?
That their opinion doesn't matter?

As for 40% of the country thinking that there is a recession if the person in the White house has a D after his name. I think that is an exaggeration.  I grew up blue collar.  My husband blue collar and we are both college educated and we own a lot of stock.  My husband is an engineer with a masters degree.   I can tell you that we and that the people I know who are republicans care more about unemployment numbers and that the people they know and love have a job that hopefully they like  and can support themselves with.  So yes, if you are talking stock here,  it and less about their stock market portfolios.  (Not that we don't care about it but we care less ) .    Since Ds are known as being anti business.  They are fearful for their job.  It was drummed into me as a child how important it is to have a job.

  What worries me about the current situation is less my stock losses or even my own health (I am a nurse nearing retirement age and WILL be exposed to coronavirus.  I can't run and hide even if I wanted to) and more that my adult children could potentially end up homeless because they are going to be unemployed. I like Trump am not sure that I want the cure to be worse than the disease.
 

[ctuser1]

there's also the 40% of the country who simply believe it's a recession whenever the person in the White House has a D after his name.

How much do they contribute economically? To the GDP?

When you talk about contributing economically GDP  I'm not sure what you are getting at here.  What is your point?  Do you mean do they own stock? That they are business owners?
That their opinion doesn't matter?

As for 40% of the country thinking that there is a recession if the person in the White house has a D after his name. I think that is an exaggeration.  I grew up blue collar.  My husband blue collar and we are both college educated and we own a lot of stock.  My husband is an engineer with a masters degree.   I can tell you that we and that the people I know who are republicans care more about unemployment numbers and that the people they know and love have a job that hopefully they like  and can support themselves with.  So yes, if you are talking stock here,  it and less about their stock market portfolios.  (Not that we don't care about it but we care less ) .    Since Ds are known as being anti business.  They are fearful for their job.  It was drummed into me as a child how important it is to have a job.

  What worries me about the current situation is less my stock losses or even my own health (I am a nurse nearing retirement age and WILL be exposed to coronavirus.  I can't run and hide even if I wanted to) and more that my adult children could potentially end up homeless because they are going to be unemployed. I like Trump am not sure that I want the cure to be worse than the disease.

When talltexan talked about people who act as if the country is in recession if a D is president - then he is describing people with an extremely partisan viewpoint who DO NOT consider political opposition as legitimate, i.e. they do not consider democracy itself to be legitimate!!

We can plainly deduce that a lot of such people exist. Otherwise gerrymandering and voter suppression efforts would not be so prevalent in the republican states.

My point was that they don't exactly carry as much economic weight as the 40% figure talltexan was citing.

I acknowledge my response was based on "gut feel" and not a rigorous data analysis. I doubt such a data analysis is even feasible short of a massive research project. So I'd agree with your comment that the 40% figure seem to be an exeggeration.

>> Since Ds are known as being anti business.

I find this statement to be a little difficult to digest for many reasons. I don't know where you live. Where I live, there would be plenty of business owners, startup founders etc who would argue it is GOP policies that are counter-growth and counter-innovation. e.g. I know I myself did not take a risky plunge into joining a startup because I could not risk the group health insurance from megacorp right before my first daughter was due.

But, I guess this thread is not a good place for that discussion.

[wenchsenior]

...and in "either I'm going insane or the world is" news, Trump's approval ratings have ticked UP during this past few weeks of mixed-message insanity.  It's early days yet, but still pretty amazing.

Not just one poll either; Fivethirtyeight's metadata analyses show the same.

[Kris]

...and in "either I'm going insane or the world is" news, Trump's approval ratings have ticked UP during this past few weeks of mixed-message insanity.  It's early days yet, but still pretty amazing.

Not just one poll either; Fivethirtyeight's metadata analyses show the same.

Ignorance is contagious, too.

[talltexan]

Frankly, I interacted with a ton of small business owners who felt like Obamacare fucked them over, and didn't like Obama because of that. You have only to look at the rise of the NFIB sentiment index (or even consumer sentiment) immediately follow Trump's election to realize how many of these people there are.

[American GenX]

...and in "either I'm going insane or the world is" news, Trump's approval ratings have ticked UP during this past few weeks of mixed-message insanity.  It's early days yet, but still pretty amazing.

Not just one poll either; Fivethirtyeight's metadata analyses show the same.

I haven't bee reading polls, but it's amazing if true.  My opinion of Trump continues to decline, to new lows this week.  What he says has gotten beyond ridiculous.

[American GenX]

I read this in the NY Times.

“Mr. Trump's performance has put on display the traits that Democrats and some Republicans consider so jarring -- the profound need for personal praise, the propensity to blame others, the lack of human empathy, the pension for rewriting history, the disregard for expertise, the distortion of facts, the impatience with scrutiny or criticism. For years, skeptics expressed concern about how he would handle a genuine crisis threatening the nation, and now they know.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/21/us/politics/trump-coronavirus-leadership.html

[LaineyAZ]

And yet his approval rating is back up to 50%.
https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/489340-poll-trump-lands-50-percent-approval-for-first-time-in-two

[MDM]

Perhaps because the more people look at Biden and Pelosi, Trump doesn't seem so bad.

One would think either party could capture the political high ground by proposing a "just help people directly affected and not attach other baggage" bill, but the reflex actions of both parties seem too strong to allow for that.

[OzzieandHarriet]

And yet his approval rating is back up to 50%.
https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/489340-poll-trump-lands-50-percent-approval-for-first-time-in-two

That is truly disturbing.

This is no doubt more accurate:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?cid=rrpromo

[martyconlonontherun]

I read this in the NY Times.

“Mr. Trump's performance has put on display the traits that Democrats and some Republicans consider so jarring -- the profound need for personal praise, the propensity to blame others, the lack of human empathy, the pension for rewriting history, the disregard for expertise, the distortion of facts, the impatience with scrutiny or criticism. For years, skeptics expressed concern about how he would handle a genuine crisis threatening the nation, and now they know.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/21/us/politics/trump-coronavirus-leadership.html

Unbelievable how that quote describes anyone of his press conferences

[sui generis]

And yet his approval rating is back up to 50%.
https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/489340-poll-trump-lands-50-percent-approval-for-first-time-in-two

That is truly disturbing.

This is no doubt more accurate:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?cid=rrpromo

Probably more accurate, but still disturbing in that it has gone up in recent days.  Even if he's jumping over the very low bar of doing something to address the crisis, I can't believe there are people that have changed their minds about him over the very poor performance compared to like most of the rest of humanity.

[OzzieandHarriet]

And yet his approval rating is back up to 50%.
https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/489340-poll-trump-lands-50-percent-approval-for-first-time-in-two

That is truly disturbing.

This is no doubt more accurate:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?cid=rrpromo

Probably more accurate, but still disturbing in that it has gone up in recent days.  Even if he's jumping over the very low bar of doing something to address the crisis, I can't believe there are people that have changed their minds about him over the very poor performance compared to like most of the rest of humanity.

Perhaps this explains it:

https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2020/02/05/trumps-rising-approval-numbers-resulting-from-differential-nonresponse/

[sui generis]

And yet his approval rating is back up to 50%.
https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/489340-poll-trump-lands-50-percent-approval-for-first-time-in-two

That is truly disturbing.

This is no doubt more accurate:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?cid=rrpromo

Probably more accurate, but still disturbing in that it has gone up in recent days.  Even if he's jumping over the very low bar of doing something to address the crisis, I can't believe there are people that have changed their minds about him over the very poor performance compared to like most of the rest of humanity.

Perhaps this explains it:

https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2020/02/05/trumps-rising-approval-numbers-resulting-from-differential-nonresponse/

Interesting, thanks for sharing.

[MilesTeg]

This is good data analysis, particularly the growth piece. I wonder whether looking at the blue counties wouldn't yield the result that the wealthier people IN those blue counties tend to still support Republicans? (with the counties being blue because those wealthy supporters are few in number)

It is difficult to get a handle on the actual data.

My gut feel - it is unlikely in the coastal areas that the wealthier people are closet Trump supporters.

Trump supporters fall in two categories where I live (CT) and work (Manhattan):
1. Non college educated people. Think plumbers, builders etc. While some of them can be wealthy, the average is anything but in places where 100k is considered a lower-middle-class income.
2. A few of the higher income people, more to stand out as contrarians.

Vast majority of your typical, run-of-the-mill doctors, engineers, bankers profess to have a deep dislike for Trumpism.

It is, of course, always possible that some of those typical run-of-the-mill upper middle class people hide their true feelings. I think the best substitute is to take the actual voting numbers in all the different counties in 2018 election. That would not paint a good picture for Trumpism in these states.

But, even if for argument's sake the wealthy people in the coastal areas were actually closet trump supporters, I doubt they would think we are in a recession any time a democrat is a president. After all, they are used to living under a liberal state government, and a population that tends to be very liberal. So, it seems plausible that they are not relevant for the specific discussion at hand.

Don't underestimate the stupid of trumpism. There are legions if trump supporters that will flat out tell you Trump inherited a dumppster fire of an economy.

[Panly]

Trump will remain president.

There won't be an election as you know it. Esp. not if there's a remote chance he'd lose the vote. 


A way will be found to drastically reduce D voter turnout (in swing states) and that will seal it.
 

 

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

Trump isn't a president; he's a cult leader. There isn't a way to get rid of him now.

[ctuser1]

Whether Trump wins or loses in the Nov election is an important issue, but comparatively it's an insignificant detail next to another related issue that is *far* more important - belief in "trumpism" among trump followers.

The ardent belief in "Trumpism" among a large section of the population is what Trump derives his power from. Even if Trump loses, Trumpism can come back again next time, and will almost certainly be much more virulent at that time because *anyone else* would likely be more competent than Trump - with much greater capacity to cause damage.

So, whether Trump wins or loses in 2020 is not exactly the issue that I lose sleep over. I am much more interested in handicapping the underlying thought process of a Trump supporter.

[ctuser1]

Frankly, I interacted with a ton of small business owners who felt like Obamacare fucked them over, and didn't like Obama because of that.

<not directly related to "how many such people are there" or "how big an economic impact they have">
I remember having some interesting conversations with small business owners on this topic right after '08.

Ultimately, whenever I have had a chance to talk to someone, the issue boils down to EMTALA. The small business owners and their employees have the right to emergency medical care if they - for example - break their leg. Since it is not a proximate issue right in front of them all the time - they tend to feel they have no responsibility to pay for it.

Joe Schmoe the plumber was now asked to fork over $15k/year in real money, for some "abstract" benefits like:
1. ER care under EMTALA (which he got anyway, just did not pay for it earlier)
2. Insurance can't be denied or taken away for "pre-existing-conditions" - again not relevant for majority, but only if you are unfortunate to have the situation.

It's no wonder he will be mad, especially when the right skillfully managed the outrage!!

I'm not sure if there was any alternative though!!

Should Joe Schmoe have continued to enjoy EMTALA-mandated ER care guarantee without paying anything into it? Should John Doe have continued uninsured because he has a pre-existing condition (which is - like - half of the population)?

The political right (that skillfully managed this outrage) wasn't even interested in exploring any alternatives when ACA negotiations were happening. I found it confusing at that time. But the reasons are clear to me now once I have learned to see through what libertarians and the political right nominally profess, and understand that they are allergic to the concept of "personal responsibility" (cite: Rand Paul continuing to infect others while waiting for test results).

[PKFFW]

Prior to 2008, there were a lot of people who thought that Bush Jr. would find a way to remain in office, because they viewed him as a dictator. I find it odd that people as smart and level-headed as the MMM crowd would believe the same nonsense about Trump.

I've seen the claim of there being large numbers of people who believed Bush Jr and Obama would stay past two terms a number of times.  However, I'm yet to see any actual evidence that there were in fact any significant number of people who actually did think Bush Jr or Obama would stay in office after the limit of two terms.

Whether a fear that Trump will try to unlawfully remain in office is valid, I think the difference is that neither Bush Jr or Obama ever made remarks regarding trying to and wanting to whereas Trump has repeatedly done so.

[Kris]

Prior to 2008, there were a lot of people who thought that Bush Jr. would find a way to remain in office, because they viewed him as a dictator. I find it odd that people as smart and level-headed as the MMM crowd would believe the same nonsense about Trump.

I've seen the claim of there being large numbers of people who believed Bush Jr and Obama would stay past two terms a number of times.  However, I'm yet to see any actual evidence that there were in fact any significant number of people who actually did think Bush Jr or Obama would stay in office after the limit of two terms.

Whether a fear that Trump will try to unlawfully remain in office is valid, I think the difference is that neither Bush Jr or Obama ever made remarks regarding trying to and wanting to whereas Trump has repeatedly done so.

+1.

A few conspiracy theory nutjobs advancing a harebrained idea does not a valid argument make.

[Telecaster]

Whether Trump wins or loses in the Nov election is an important issue, but comparatively it's an insignificant detail next to another related issue that is *far* more important - belief in "trumpism" among trump followers.

The ardent belief in "Trumpism" among a large section of the population is what Trump derives his power from. Even if Trump loses, Trumpism can come back again next time, and will almost certainly be much more virulent at that time because *anyone else* would likely be more competent than Trump - with much greater capacity to cause damage.

So, whether Trump wins or loses in 2020 is not exactly the issue that I lose sleep over. I am much more interested in handicapping the underlying thought process of a Trump supporter.

Trump, I believe, is a unique case.  His policy positions are not unique, e.g. xenophobia, tax cuts for the wealthy, crony capitalism.  etc.  But his methods are certainly unique.  He simply trains his fire on however he perceives his opponent to be without concern that he may need to build consensus.  For example:

https://youtu.be/5D-tKJzkBdc

However, Trump supporters support Trump unconditionally so his former opponents just fall in line.  It is crazy.  I've never seen anything like it.  But that works both ways.  Since he never reaches out, he's had extraordinarily few legislative accomplishments.   His promises have also been absurd and unworkable.  Mexico will pay for the wall.  6% economic growth.  But again, his supporters don't hold him accountable for a stunning string of failed promises. 

But I think Trump is a one-off.  No one else in my memory has made his style of pugilistic politics work.  It is all becomes Trump's base love him more than any other politician, or even any other particular political position.

[dandarc]

Biden should save that supercut of Trump's bullshit, find as big a tablet as he can. Then at any debates, any time Donald "I didn't know the flu kills people" Trump attacks him, just play that at full volume.

Or just refuse any debates in the interest of public health and play that as a campaign ad incessantly.

[bacchi]

Biden should save that supercut of Trump's bullshit, find as big a tablet as he can. Then at any debates, any time Donald "I didn't know the flu kills people" Trump attacks him, just play that at full volume.

Or just refuse any debates in the interest of public health and play that as a campaign ad incessantly.

There are a lot of recent Trump statements that can be used. The "American Resurrection" one may be next, given that it likely coincides with NY's infection peak.

[dandarc]

At least one NPR station has decided to stop airing the briefings live due to the rampant misinformation. FROM THE FUCKING PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. Hope this trend spreads real fast.

Freedom of the press - very important right now.

[dandarc]

At least one NPR station has decided to stop airing the briefings live due to the rampant misinformation. ...

Just read this article, from a twitter thread:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/cnn-and-msnbc-staffers-wary-of-airing-trump-coronavirus-pressers

What could he possibly have to say that is relevant to the nation for more than an hour? This is why we have a free press - one way to hold the government accountable is to refuse them a platform when it the lies are obvious.

[MDM]

The more people see and hear directly from both Trump and Biden, the more people's choice can be an informed one, unfiltered by Fox, MSNBC, etc.

[OtherJen]

At least one NPR station has decided to stop airing the briefings live due to the rampant misinformation. ...

Just read this article, from a twitter thread:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/cnn-and-msnbc-staffers-wary-of-airing-trump-coronavirus-pressers

What could he possibly have to say that is relevant to the nation for more than an hour? This is why we have a free press - one way to hold the government accountable is to refuse them a platform when it the lies are obvious.

It’s such a waste of time and energy for all of those people on stage with him who are actually trying to do their jobs (Fauci, Birx, Pence). Maybe it’s best if Trump stays on the golf course at Mar-a-lago. Can we find some busy work for him so that the grownups can do their jobs?

[Just Joe]

Trump supporters are going to be even less likely to trust the media, because the media industry abandoned any illusion of objectivity in 2016.

Lol

Or...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/17/trump-learns-pitfalls-his-pinocchio-presidency/

"An alarming new poll from NPR, PBS NewsHour and Marist shows that the number of Republicans who believe the virus is a real threat has actually fallen over the past month, from 72 percent in February to just 40 percent now. A majority of Republicans now say the threat has been blown out of proportion — more than double the 23 percent who said so last month."

So... survival of the fittest? There are people who listen to Trump and FoxNews and then there are those people who listen to the scientists and medical experts...

DW and I try to make the best judgement for our family we can based on real information from real experts.

[gmdv]

Trump supporters are going to be even less likely to trust the media, because the media industry abandoned any illusion of objectivity in 2016.

Lol

Or...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/17/trump-learns-pitfalls-his-pinocchio-presidency/

"An alarming new poll from NPR, PBS NewsHour and Marist shows that the number of Republicans who believe the virus is a real threat has actually fallen over the past month, from 72 percent in February to just 40 percent now. A majority of Republicans now say the threat has been blown out of proportion — more than double the 23 percent who said so last month."

So... survival of the fittest? There are people who listen to Trump and FoxNews and then there are those people who listen to the scientists and medical experts...

DW and I try to make the best judgement for our family we can based on real information from real experts.

I have no problem if most Republicans listen to their leader and willingly go through this trial of survival of the fittest.  By the time it's over and done with,  the US may even get to have a viable 3rd party.

[DarkandStormy]

https://www.mediaite.com/news/twitter-deletes-post-from-the-federalist-proposing-chickenpox-parties-to-deliberately-spread-coronavirus/

https://twitter.com/JesseKellyDC/status/1242440826317344768

These people are insane.

[frugalnacho]

I haven't read the entire thread, and I'm hesitant to get into a political thread, but LOL if you think incompetence and buffoonery is going to be trump's downfall.  He had all these characteristics before the crisis, and people still elected him.  This will not be his downfall.  Even as he spouts misinformation and flat out lies every day, and the number of infections increases, and the hospitals become overloaded and the deaths pile up at an alarming rate...people will still love Trump! People in my neighborhood are putting out huge "Trump 2020!" flags in front of their houses. 

I'm sure many people here are thinking that everyone else will act logically and rationally, because they think they do so themselves.  But that's not how people work.  Some segment of the population will not take this pandemic seriously no matter what.  Look at Italy: infections soaring, people dieing, mandatory lock down, and people still whooping it up in the streets like nothing is going on to the point they are having a difficult time getting people to comply with social distancing.

Trump may actually emerge from this crisis more popular than he was and he may very well be reelected. Regardless of how it turns out or how incompetently you think he botched the response. 

[YttriumNitrate]

https://www.mediaite.com/news/twitter-deletes-post-from-the-federalist-proposing-chickenpox-parties-to-deliberately-spread-coronavirus/
https://twitter.com/JesseKellyDC/status/1242440826317344768These people are insane.

From a purely selfish standpoint, Chicken pox style parties to get the disease early are a pretty good idea. In the chart below, there are three general periods when you will get the disease: 1) the period before resources are overwhelmed, 2) the period when resources are overwhelmed, and 3) after the period after resources are overwhelmed. Obviously, the third period is optimal since treatments will improve over time, but getting it in the first period is preferable to the second period. With that in mind, chicken pox style parties make sense at least for a little bit longer (Probably not a good idea after the first week in April).  Of course, from a societal perspective chicken pox parties are terrible, but on an individual level they make sense.

[sui generis]

Trump may actually emerge from this crisis more popular than he was and he may very well be reelected. Regardless of how it turns out or how incompetently you think he botched the response.

I think this is very possible, maybe even likely.  After all, his approval is going up currently. 

However, as I mentioned upthread, people were pissed at Bush's handling of Katrina, and he was also considered incompetent and a buffoon by many (oh, how I wish we could go back to just that level of incompetence and buffoonery!).  So what's the difference here?  Why are people rallying to Trump during this disaster when they rallied away from Bush?

[Brother Esau]

Trump may actually emerge from this crisis more popular than he was and he may very well be reelected. Regardless of how it turns out or how incompetently you think he botched the response.

I think this is very possible, maybe even likely.  After all, his approval is going up currently. 

However, as I mentioned upthread, people were pissed at Bush's handling of Katrina, and he was also considered incompetent and a buffoon by many (oh, how I wish we could go back to just that level of incompetence and buffoonery!).  So what's the difference here?  Why are people rallying to Trump during this disaster when they rallied away from Bush?

I think the U.S. is handling this situation well. Kinda like "hold my beer and watch this". The markets sure believe that. Just about anyone in the white house would gain support.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

Trump may actually emerge from this crisis more popular than he was and he may very well be reelected. Regardless of how it turns out or how incompetently you think he botched the response.

I think this is very possible, maybe even likely.  After all, his approval is going up currently. 

However, as I mentioned upthread, people were pissed at Bush's handling of Katrina, and he was also considered incompetent and a buffoon by many (oh, how I wish we could go back to just that level of incompetence and buffoonery!).  So what's the difference here?  Why are people rallying to Trump during this disaster when they rallied away from Bush?

I think the U.S. is handling this situation well. Kinda like "hold my beer and watch this". The markets sure believe that. Just about anyone in the white house would gain support.

Wait, you think the USA is handling the corona virus situation well???

[Brother Esau]

Trump may actually emerge from this crisis more popular than he was and he may very well be reelected. Regardless of how it turns out or how incompetently you think he botched the response.

I think this is very possible, maybe even likely.  After all, his approval is going up currently. 

However, as I mentioned upthread, people were pissed at Bush's handling of Katrina, and he was also considered incompetent and a buffoon by many (oh, how I wish we could go back to just that level of incompetence and buffoonery!).  So what's the difference here?  Why are people rallying to Trump during this disaster when they rallied away from Bush?

I think the U.S. is handling this situation well. Kinda like "hold my beer and watch this". The markets sure believe that. Just about anyone in the white house would gain support.

Wait, you think the USA is handling the corona virus situation well???

Absolutely. As well or better than could be expected. Notice I didn't say Trump is handling it well.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

Trump may actually emerge from this crisis more popular than he was and he may very well be reelected. Regardless of how it turns out or how incompetently you think he botched the response.

I think this is very possible, maybe even likely.  After all, his approval is going up currently. 

However, as I mentioned upthread, people were pissed at Bush's handling of Katrina, and he was also considered incompetent and a buffoon by many (oh, how I wish we could go back to just that level of incompetence and buffoonery!).  So what's the difference here?  Why are people rallying to Trump during this disaster when they rallied away from Bush?

I think the U.S. is handling this situation well. Kinda like "hold my beer and watch this". The markets sure believe that. Just about anyone in the white house would gain support.

Wait, you think the USA is handling the corona virus situation well???

Absolutely. As well or better than could be expected. Notice I didn't say Trump is handling it well.

The USA isn't testing in anywhere the numbers it needs to be, it hasn't locked down early enough or sufficiently, it's just now starting to churn out vital PPE, and the politicians are arguing over everything from stimulus packages to future measures. It's a shit show calamity unfolding that will make Italy and Spain look like a summer holiday. The USA did not recognise what was happening at the beginning, and I'm not convinced it has any real idea now. And een if it did, there's no co-ordinated response. I feel very, very sorry for your country and what is about to happen there.

[Brother Esau]

Trump may actually emerge from this crisis more popular than he was and he may very well be reelected. Regardless of how it turns out or how incompetently you think he botched the response.

I think this is very possible, maybe even likely.  After all, his approval is going up currently. 

However, as I mentioned upthread, people were pissed at Bush's handling of Katrina, and he was also considered incompetent and a buffoon by many (oh, how I wish we could go back to just that level of incompetence and buffoonery!).  So what's the difference here?  Why are people rallying to Trump during this disaster when they rallied away from Bush?

I think the U.S. is handling this situation well. Kinda like "hold my beer and watch this". The markets sure believe that. Just about anyone in the white house would gain support.

Wait, you think the USA is handling the corona virus situation well???

Absolutely. As well or better than could be expected. Notice I didn't say Trump is handling it well.

The USA isn't testing in anywhere the numbers it needs to be, it hasn't locked down early enough or sufficiently, it's just now starting to churn out vital PPE, and the politicians are arguing over everything from stimulus packages to future measures. It's a shit show calamity unfolding that will make Italy and Spain look like a summer holiday. The USA did not recognise what was happening at the beginning, and I'm not convinced it has any real idea now. And een if it did, there's no co-ordinated response. I feel very, very sorry for your country and what is about to happen there.

1.5% death rate is second lowest on the planet (South Korea is 1.3%). Stock Markets up 15% in 3 days. Thank god I live in this country and not Europe, China, etc.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

Trump may actually emerge from this crisis more popular than he was and he may very well be reelected. Regardless of how it turns out or how incompetently you think he botched the response.

I think this is very possible, maybe even likely.  After all, his approval is going up currently. 

However, as I mentioned upthread, people were pissed at Bush's handling of Katrina, and he was also considered incompetent and a buffoon by many (oh, how I wish we could go back to just that level of incompetence and buffoonery!).  So what's the difference here?  Why are people rallying to Trump during this disaster when they rallied away from Bush?

I think the U.S. is handling this situation well. Kinda like "hold my beer and watch this". The markets sure believe that. Just about anyone in the white house would gain support.

Wait, you think the USA is handling the corona virus situation well???

Absolutely. As well or better than could be expected. Notice I didn't say Trump is handling it well.

The USA isn't testing in anywhere the numbers it needs to be, it hasn't locked down early enough or sufficiently, it's just now starting to churn out vital PPE, and the politicians are arguing over everything from stimulus packages to future measures. It's a shit show calamity unfolding that will make Italy and Spain look like a summer holiday. The USA did not recognise what was happening at the beginning, and I'm not convinced it has any real idea now. And een if it did, there's no co-ordinated response. I feel very, very sorry for your country and what is about to happen there.

1.5% death rate is second lowest on the planet (South Korea is 1.3%). Stock Markets up 15% in 3 days. Thank god I live in this country and not Europe, China, etc.

You have a low death rate because your timeline is behind other countries. Wait. Preferably in self isolation.

I'm in NZ. Our death rate is currently 0%. The entire country is in full lock down for four weeks. Because our government understands how epidemics work AND is prepared to do something about it.

[frugalnacho]

chickenpox parties don't make any sense anymore since we have a vaccine.  It made sense before there was a vaccine available, because it's much more preferable to get it as a young child than get it later in life where the disease will be far more severe.  But it's even more preferable to get a vaccine and not get the disease at all.  In the case of coronavirus parties, it doesn't make any sense either.  Even if you just want to get it and get it over with, there is no guarantee you won't be a contributing factor to overwhelming the healthcare system. And even the most dire predictions I've seen don't come anywhere close to having 100% of the population infected, so it's not even a guarantee you'll get infected anyway, even if this virus runs absolutely rampant through the global population and kills tens of millions of people...there is still a decent chance in that scenario that you never get infected. 

Also case in point with the last few posts.  The US response to the crisis has been embarrassingly abysmal by any objective metric, yet some seemingly smart and rational people in this community think they are doing a fine job.  Just imagine what average normal people outside of this community think, keeping in mind they are the people that elected Trump in the first place.

[former player]

1.5% death rate is second lowest on the planet (South Korea is 1.3%). Stock Markets up 15% in 3 days. Thank god I live in this country and not Europe, China, etc.

You are misunderstanding the situation.  It takes several weeks to die of covid-19, quite possibly involving 3 or 4 weeks on a ventilator before dying.  The death rate in the USA will not still be 1.5% in a few weeks' time, once infected people have had time to die.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

1.5% death rate is second lowest on the planet (South Korea is 1.3%). Stock Markets up 15% in 3 days. Thank god I live in this country and not Europe, China, etc.

You are misunderstanding the situation.  It takes several weeks to die of covid-19, quite possibly involving 3 or 4 weeks on a ventilator before dying.  The death rate in the USA will not still be 1.5% in a few weeks' time, once infected people have had time to die.

And the virus is quietly rampaging through your communities, untested. I've seen the USA curves. In a weeks time there will be increasing deaths. In two-three weeks time the population will be terrified, the deaths will be terrifying, the hospitals will be overwhelmed, people will be dying unnoticed in their homes. It's going to be horrendous, and it's going to start happening very fast from now.

[DarkandStormy]

1.5% death rate is second lowest on the planet (South Korea is 1.3%). Stock Markets up 15% in 3 days. Thank god I live in this country and not Europe, China, etc.

You are misunderstanding the situation.  It takes several weeks to die of covid-19, quite possibly involving 3 or 4 weeks on a ventilator before dying.  The death rate in the USA will not still be 1.5% in a few weeks' time, once infected people have had time to die.

And the virus is quietly rampaging through your communities, untested. I've seen the USA curves. In a weeks time there will be increasing deaths. In two-three weeks time the population will be terrified, the deaths will be terrifying, the hospitals will be overwhelmed, people will be dying unnoticed in their homes. It's going to be horrendous, and it's going to start happening very fast from now.

Not true.  I've been told we can all celebrate and shake hands on Easter!

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

1.5% death rate is second lowest on the planet (South Korea is 1.3%). Stock Markets up 15% in 3 days. Thank god I live in this country and not Europe, China, etc.

You are misunderstanding the situation.  It takes several weeks to die of covid-19, quite possibly involving 3 or 4 weeks on a ventilator before dying.  The death rate in the USA will not still be 1.5% in a few weeks' time, once infected people have had time to die.

And the virus is quietly rampaging through your communities, untested. I've seen the USA curves. In a weeks time there will be increasing deaths. In two-three weeks time the population will be terrified, the deaths will be terrifying, the hospitals will be overwhelmed, people will be dying unnoticed in their homes. It's going to be horrendous, and it's going to start happening very fast from now.

Not true.  I've been told we can all celebrate and shake hands on Easter!

It's like he thinks whatever he says just magically becomes reality. And the, when it doesn't, he forgets he said it.....

[Kris]

1.5% death rate is second lowest on the planet (South Korea is 1.3%). Stock Markets up 15% in 3 days. Thank god I live in this country and not Europe, China, etc.

You are misunderstanding the situation.  It takes several weeks to die of covid-19, quite possibly involving 3 or 4 weeks on a ventilator before dying.  The death rate in the USA will not still be 1.5% in a few weeks' time, once infected people have had time to die.

And the virus is quietly rampaging through your communities, untested. I've seen the USA curves. In a weeks time there will be increasing deaths. In two-three weeks time the population will be terrified, the deaths will be terrifying, the hospitals will be overwhelmed, people will be dying unnoticed in their homes. It's going to be horrendous, and it's going to start happening very fast from now.

Not true.  I've been told we can all celebrate and shake hands on Easter!

It's like he thinks whatever he says just magically becomes reality. And the, when it doesn't, he forgets he said it.....

It does. At least to his base. He's got the right-wing blogs and media behind him, after all.

https://mavenroundtable.io/theintellectualist/news/trump-supporters-turn-on-dr-fauci-claiming-he-s-a-member-of-the-deep-state-NewK4dKgLUCIK9Dn-jzr9g?fbclid=IwAR2zxNh10d8ZY0i8LjN1UO1Z3uf_g2vPYWfG3eiADiH5f3DjR-bS4kX63cE