Author Topic: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President  (Read 118507 times)

MasterStache

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #400 on: May 01, 2022, 12:21:04 PM »
Every time a political ad comes on in my home state (Ohio) this pops into my head:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq-v1TTUyhM

I seriously can't help but laugh.

blue_green_sparks

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #401 on: May 01, 2022, 12:43:42 PM »
Every time a political ad comes on in my home state (Ohio) this pops into my head:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq-v1TTUyhM

I seriously can't help but laugh.
It is almost as if the country is a box, and our citizens are hammers.

MasterStache

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #402 on: May 02, 2022, 05:59:57 AM »
Every time a political ad comes on in my home state (Ohio) this pops into my head:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq-v1TTUyhM

I seriously can't help but laugh.
It is almost as if the country is a box, and our citizens are hammers.
Ha!!

Number 45 forgot who he endorsed in Ohio at his rally. "JD Mandell" apparently. Meanwhile Vance suggested Biden is purposefully kill a bunch of MAGA voters by allowing fentanyl to flow over the border. Of course the implication there is that only MAGA voters are hooked on drugs. Just can't make this shit up. 

talltexan

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #403 on: May 02, 2022, 06:28:08 AM »
I received a fund-raising text from Newt Gingrich of all people (that's what I get for making contributions to Trump's Republican challengers in the 2020 primary).

The text said I'd receive "1,100% matching" to any contributions. Sounds like they already have 92% of the money they need.

former player

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #404 on: May 02, 2022, 07:20:22 AM »
This is not up to date on Ukraine (published 11 March 2022) but it's pretty persuasive on the subject of Putin and Trump.
ETA:

https://sethabramson.substack.com/p/the-ten-hardest-truths-about-the?s=w
« Last Edit: May 02, 2022, 09:32:59 AM by former player »

talltexan

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #405 on: May 02, 2022, 09:13:02 AM »
@former player , did you mean to include a link?

GuitarStv

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #406 on: May 02, 2022, 09:14:33 AM »
@former player , did you mean to include a link?

Those Russian hackers are quick to the draw.  :P

former player

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #407 on: May 02, 2022, 09:34:07 AM »
@former player , did you mean to include a link?

Those Russian hackers are quick to the draw.  :P
Take it from someone who spent far too long working in government: it's always cock-up rather than conspiracy.

talltexan

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #408 on: May 02, 2022, 11:08:48 AM »
Thank you for adding. I've long tracked Seth Abramson on Twitter, because He seemed to think the criminal liability for Sec. Clinton regarding her e-mails was damning, so this made him seem less like a political hack and more like a person who tried to get to the bottom of issues.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #409 on: May 08, 2022, 04:56:43 AM »
As long as I've made one complaint about the current President, I might as well drop my most obscure complaint about former President Trump in this thread.  I haven't checked the full thread, but suspect this wasn't a highlight.

Obama setup the Trans-Pacific Partnership, with the intent of forming a trade block to counter China's influence.

His successor instead scored an "own goal" on this one.  President Trump left the TPP... which allowed China to simply step in and join.  The exact purpose, to thwart China's trade influence, became a gimmie at handing China more trade influence.

I assume the TPP could have been scuttled, or unreasonable demands placed on it.  But a mitigating factor is that maybe that wasn't possible or would have made the U.S. seem unreliable.  In that case, Republican opposition to TPP might have only been expressed through not joining.

talltexan

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #410 on: May 09, 2022, 07:01:29 AM »
It's a legitimate complaint: I attended a panel in which economists confronted Lighthizer (Trump's top trade official) about pulling out of it when he'd spoke in favor of it during the Obama years. Something about TPP became very unpopular and misunderstood during 2015, I think Clinton had to voice serious reservations about it to fend off the Sanders primary challenge.

Just Joe

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #411 on: May 24, 2022, 07:39:23 AM »
Don't know where to drop this so I'll put it here b/c this is a favorite strategy of MAGA politicians.

I'm totally over politicians who condense and otherwise take out of context their opponent's comments. I know both sides do it to some extent. Certain politicians rely on it as their primary strategy.

We have so many major problems facing our country and even our species that we just don't have time for this kind of BS. I'm not voting for a candidate who can't communicate better than this. Any politicians who insists on doing this might as well be considered to have a hearing or listening comprehension problem that needs to be addressed. IMHO this makes them undesirable in a government role where communication is the primary skillset that a politician needs.

Again, I know what he did was intentional. I'm just so over it.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-rallies-for-david-perdue-georgia-primary-brian-kemp-2022-5

talltexan

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #412 on: May 24, 2022, 11:45:30 AM »
I think you and I agree that candidates should offer substantive policies when they run. It doesn't seem like Perdue has really done that. Or did I misunderstand the post, and you're arguing Perdue was taken out of context?

If the goal of the Insider is to whack Perdue for making a racist comment, the publication itself undersells Abrams' time as a GA legislator, which included serving as their Speaker of the House, a detail the article didn't mention.

Davnasty

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #413 on: May 24, 2022, 01:11:08 PM »
I think you and I agree that candidates should offer substantive policies when they run. It doesn't seem like Perdue has really done that. Or did I misunderstand the post, and you're arguing Perdue was taken out of context?

If the goal of the Insider is to whack Perdue for making a racist comment, the publication itself undersells Abrams' time as a GA legislator, which included serving as their Speaker of the House, a detail the article didn't mention.

Perdue took Abram's words out of context. From the article:

Quote
"She said that Georgia is the worst place in the country to live," he also said during that rally. "Hey, she ain't from here. Let her go back where she came from if she doesn't like it here."

Abrams moved to Georgia in high school and previously served in the state's legislature. At a fundraising event for Gwinnett County Democrats near Atlanta, Abrams said that she was "tired of hearing about being the best state in the country to do business when we are the worst state in the country to live."

"When you're number 48 for mental health, when you're number one for maternal mortality, when you have an incarceration rate that's on the rise and wages that are on the decline, then you are not the number one place to live in the United States," Abrams said.

"But we can get there. You see, Georgia is capable of greatness. We just need greatness to be in our governor's office," she added.

talltexan

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #414 on: May 24, 2022, 02:19:54 PM »
Thanks for clarifying. It's interesting that Georgia can rank that badly in those things, yet still be growing the way it is via in-migration.

talltexan

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #415 on: June 03, 2022, 07:42:26 PM »
Man, finally found some time on Friday night, let's see if there are any headlines. It's a good thing that years of conservative propaganda have conditioned me to not believe any information in the New York Times, isn't it?



talltexan

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #417 on: June 10, 2022, 09:09:11 AM »
I watched the hearings last night. Given the slow activity on this thread, I'd understand if everyone else thinks it's time to move on.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/06/09/first-january-6-hearing-takeaways/

What saddened me about Jan. 6 was that these people became violent because they were told lies by leaders and media about who won an election. They truly believed they were protecting the will of the people, but it was actually the opposite. The hearings demonstrated that most of those people--when having candidate internal discussions--knew they were lies.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #418 on: June 10, 2022, 10:21:12 AM »
talltexan - I don't have subscriptions to either of those websites, so I don't know what those articles say.

Quote
The House panel investigating the Jan. 6 insurrection at the U.S. Capitol has laid the blame firmly on Donald Trump, saying the assault was not spontaneous but an “attempted coup” and a direct result of the defeated president’s effort to overturn the 2020 election.
https://apnews.com/article/jan-6-capitol-riot-hearings-live-updates-eefb79f2cffb705f04bf43ea164db20f

All I can offer is a semantic argument, so feel free to ignore this if you're looking for something more meaningful.  "attempted coup" was mentioned in the quote above.  I would argue if someone is already President, it is not a "coup".  In trying to explore what happened, I looked over the criminal charges of those who violently attacked the Capital.  I see "seditious conspiracy" mentioned several times, with guilty pleas, but I doubt that phrase makes anyone happy.  Maybe I'm just reaching for some source on which everyone can agree - a common definition as a starting point.  But again, if you wanted more than a semantic argument, feel free to ignore the point I'm interested in.

brandon1827

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #419 on: June 10, 2022, 10:43:23 AM »
I feel like coup was appropriate given that Trump and his cronies were trying to overturn the results of an election where the result was that he would no longer be President. He had also apparently abdicated his duties as we've now learned that military heads and secret service were taking orders from Mike Pence during crucial portions of January 6th while Trump was reportedly giddily watching the insurrection on TV and purposefully not responding to calls for him to take action

edit: typo
« Last Edit: June 10, 2022, 12:03:17 PM by brandon1827 »

Glenstache

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #420 on: June 10, 2022, 11:03:41 AM »
Definition: coup: "a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government."

Sudden: check
Illegal seizure of power: check
....from the government: Check. He was attempting to disrupt the actions of congress, aka the legislative branch of government. Seems pretty clear cut even if he was a separate branch of government at that moment by definition.

I hope that an outcome of the Jan 6th hearings is that it makes the DOJ pursue charges. I can understand Garland wanting to wait for the hearings to occur before moving forward with charges. It would be awkward if he moved forward first. I don't personally feel that treason (even if not successful) is too much to charge to those orchestrating Jan 6. That includes a fair number of GOP politicians, John Eastman, Guiliani, and a good number of Proud Boys.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #421 on: June 10, 2022, 12:17:22 PM »
Definition: coup: "a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government."
....from the government: Check. He was attempting to disrupt the actions of congress, aka the legislative branch of government.
A "seizure of power" is not the same as "attempting to disrupt the actions", so I disagree with making that leap.  And I did warn people I was focused on the wording, so I hope this comment isn't bothersome or a surprise.

Although U.S. politicians wouldn't use the French term "coup d'etat", I think the Meriam Webster defintion for that best fits my undertanding of the word coup in this context.

"especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coup%20d'%C3%A9tat

More concisely, "the violent overthrow of a government", where I would argue "existing government" is relevent and others may disagree with me.  Did the violent mob "overthrow" the government?  I don't think so.

There was a risk that members of Congress could be attacked by a violent mob, but ultimately no member of Congress was attacked.  A proceeding of Congress was disrupted, and delayed by many hours - but it took place hours later.  The power to name the next President was not "seized", nor was a government "overthrown".

EvenSteven

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #422 on: June 10, 2022, 12:26:09 PM »
Definition: coup: "a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government."
....from the government: Check. He was attempting to disrupt the actions of congress, aka the legislative branch of government.
A "seizure of power" is not the same as "attempting to disrupt the actions", so I disagree with making that leap.  And I did warn people I was focused on the wording, so I hope this comment isn't bothersome or a surprise.

Although U.S. politicians wouldn't use the French term "coup d'etat", I think the Meriam Webster defintion for that best fits my undertanding of the word coup in this context.

"especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coup%20d'%C3%A9tat

More concisely, "the violent overthrow of a government", where I would argue "existing government" is relevent and others may disagree with me.  Did the violent mob "overthrow" the government?  I don't think so.

There was a risk that members of Congress could be attacked by a violent mob, but ultimately no member of Congress was attacked.  A proceeding of Congress was disrupted, and delayed by many hours - but it took place hours later.  The power to name the next President was not "seized", nor was a government "overthrown".

Which would make it attempted, and not successful. An attempted coup doesn't need to be successful in order to call it attempted.

"That wasn't attempted murder, I didn't even successfully murder anyone!"

PeteD01

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #423 on: June 10, 2022, 01:48:20 PM »
Definition: coup: "a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government."
....from the government: Check. He was attempting to disrupt the actions of congress, aka the legislative branch of government.
A "seizure of power" is not the same as "attempting to disrupt the actions", so I disagree with making that leap.  And I did warn people I was focused on the wording, so I hope this comment isn't bothersome or a surprise.

Although U.S. politicians wouldn't use the French term "coup d'etat", I think the Meriam Webster defintion for that best fits my undertanding of the word coup in this context.

"especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coup%20d'%C3%A9tat

More concisely, "the violent overthrow of a government", where I would argue "existing government" is relevent and others may disagree with me.  Did the violent mob "overthrow" the government?  I don't think so.

There was a risk that members of Congress could be attacked by a violent mob, but ultimately no member of Congress was attacked.  A proceeding of Congress was disrupted, and delayed by many hours - but it took place hours later.  The power to name the next President was not "seized", nor was a government "overthrown".

Which would make it attempted, and not successful. An attempted coup doesn't need to be successful in order to call it attempted.

"That wasn't attempted murder, I didn't even successfully murder anyone!"

As far as semantics go, it was an ´attempted autocoup´(also autogolpe, self-coup).

Edit:
And to belabor the point: An autocoup is a specific kind of coup among other kinds of coups. Referring to the Trump autocoup attempt as a coup is correct if less precise than using the lesser known term autocoup, as autocoups are simply a subset of all coups.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2022, 03:48:07 PM by PeteD01 »

EvenSteven

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #424 on: June 10, 2022, 04:05:40 PM »
Definition: coup: "a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government."
....from the government: Check. He was attempting to disrupt the actions of congress, aka the legislative branch of government.
A "seizure of power" is not the same as "attempting to disrupt the actions", so I disagree with making that leap.  And I did warn people I was focused on the wording, so I hope this comment isn't bothersome or a surprise.

Although U.S. politicians wouldn't use the French term "coup d'etat", I think the Meriam Webster defintion for that best fits my undertanding of the word coup in this context.

"especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coup%20d'%C3%A9tat

More concisely, "the violent overthrow of a government", where I would argue "existing government" is relevent and others may disagree with me.  Did the violent mob "overthrow" the government?  I don't think so.

There was a risk that members of Congress could be attacked by a violent mob, but ultimately no member of Congress was attacked.  A proceeding of Congress was disrupted, and delayed by many hours - but it took place hours later.  The power to name the next President was not "seized", nor was a government "overthrown".

Which would make it attempted, and not successful. An attempted coup doesn't need to be successful in order to call it attempted.

"That wasn't attempted murder, I didn't even successfully murder anyone!"

As far as semantics go, it was an ´attempted autocoup´(also autogolpe, self-coup).

Edit:
And to belabor the point: An autocoup is a specific kind of coup among other kinds of coups. Referring to the Trump autocoup attempt as a coup is correct if less precise than using the lesser known term autocoup, as autocoups are simply a subset of all coups.

I believe that the most well known failed auto coupe was the Yugo.

nereo

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #425 on: June 10, 2022, 04:20:28 PM »
Definition: coup: "a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government."
....from the government: Check. He was attempting to disrupt the actions of congress, aka the legislative branch of government.
A "seizure of power" is not the same as "attempting to disrupt the actions", so I disagree with making that leap.  And I did warn people I was focused on the wording, so I hope this comment isn't bothersome or a surprise.

Although U.S. politicians wouldn't use the French term "coup d'etat", I think the Meriam Webster defintion for that best fits my undertanding of the word coup in this context.

"especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coup%20d'%C3%A9tat

More concisely, "the violent overthrow of a government", where I would argue "existing government" is relevent and others may disagree with me.  Did the violent mob "overthrow" the government?  I don't think so.

There was a risk that members of Congress could be attacked by a violent mob, but ultimately no member of Congress was attacked.  A proceeding of Congress was disrupted, and delayed by many hours - but it took place hours later.  The power to name the next President was not "seized", nor was a government "overthrown".

It seems to me by your very own arguments and the definition you prefer that it was an attempted coup.

GuitarStv

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #426 on: June 10, 2022, 04:39:42 PM »
Definition: coup: "a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government."
....from the government: Check. He was attempting to disrupt the actions of congress, aka the legislative branch of government.
A "seizure of power" is not the same as "attempting to disrupt the actions", so I disagree with making that leap.  And I did warn people I was focused on the wording, so I hope this comment isn't bothersome or a surprise.

Although U.S. politicians wouldn't use the French term "coup d'etat", I think the Meriam Webster defintion for that best fits my undertanding of the word coup in this context.

"especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coup%20d'%C3%A9tat

More concisely, "the violent overthrow of a government", where I would argue "existing government" is relevent and others may disagree with me.  Did the violent mob "overthrow" the government?  I don't think so.

There was a risk that members of Congress could be attacked by a violent mob, but ultimately no member of Congress was attacked.  A proceeding of Congress was disrupted, and delayed by many hours - but it took place hours later.  The power to name the next President was not "seized", nor was a government "overthrown".

Agreed.

The Jan 6 attack on the US capitol was a failed coup attempt.  It didn't succeed well enough to be classified as a coup.

(This obviously doesn't in any way change the seriousness of the attempt though, or the concern that all citizens should feel that a elected president encouraged the attempt and has continued to lie about the legitimacy of the election.)

Glenstache

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #427 on: June 10, 2022, 05:27:36 PM »
It could also be argued that he was acting as candidate Trump rather than as president. Pence was coordinating the response, not Trump who was reportedly gleefully just watching the mob on TV.

nereo

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #428 on: June 10, 2022, 06:39:25 PM »
It could also be argued that he was acting as candidate Trump rather than as president. Pence was coordinating the response, not Trump who was reportedly gleefully just watching the mob on TV.

I don’t think that’s a fair argument. Trump was president, even as he was running for re-election, and as we’ve learned he was attempting to put the full force of his office towards overturning the election and halting its certification over several weeks. This wasn’t just a single campaign speech.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #429 on: June 10, 2022, 08:55:33 PM »
As stated previously, I'm interested in a semantic discussion of what to call the events of Jan 6th.  For example, the definition of coup d'etat refers to a "seizure of power", so an attempted coup would be an attempted seizure of power.  And so my semantic question remains "seize what power?"


Definition: coup: "a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government."
....from the government: Check. He was attempting to disrupt the actions of congress, aka the legislative branch of government.
A "seizure of power" is not the same as "attempting to disrupt the actions", so I disagree with making that leap.  And I did warn people I was focused on the wording, so I hope this comment isn't bothersome or a surprise.

Although U.S. politicians wouldn't use the French term "coup d'etat", I think the Meriam Webster defintion for that best fits my undertanding of the word coup in this context.

"especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coup%20d'%C3%A9tat

More concisely, "the violent overthrow of a government", where I would argue "existing government" is relevent and others may disagree with me.  Did the violent mob "overthrow" the government?  I don't think so.

There was a risk that members of Congress could be attacked by a violent mob, but ultimately no member of Congress was attacked.  A proceeding of Congress was disrupted, and delayed by many hours - but it took place hours later.  The power to name the next President was not "seized", nor was a government "overthrown".

Which would make it attempted, and not successful. An attempted coup doesn't need to be successful in order to call it attempted.

"That wasn't attempted murder, I didn't even successfully murder anyone!"

As far as semantics go, it was an ´attempted autocoup´(also autogolpe, self-coup).

Edit:
And to belabor the point: An autocoup is a specific kind of coup among other kinds of coups. Referring to the Trump autocoup attempt as a coup is correct if less precise than using the lesser known term autocoup, as autocoups are simply a subset of all coups.
Interesting, I didn't know the term "autocoup" before and had to look it up, but could not find it on Meriam Wesbster's website.

Quote
A self-coup, also called autocoup (from the Spanish autogolpe), is a form of coup d'état in which a nation's leader, having come to power through legal means, dissolves or renders powerless the national legislature and unlawfully assumes extraordinary powers not granted under normal circumstances.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-coup

I disagree that former President Trump rendered Congress powerless.  He did not declare martial law or give himself new powers.  By the definition I'm reading, this was not an "autocoup".

PKFFW

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #430 on: June 10, 2022, 09:18:32 PM »
As stated previously, I'm interested in a semantic discussion of what to call the events of Jan 6th.  For example, the definition of coup d'etat refers to a "seizure of power", so an attempted coup would be an attempted seizure of power.  And so my semantic question remains "seize what power?"
It seems you are interested in a definition that makes what happened appear to be not what actually happened.

Having said that, and in the full knowledge my response will be met with some semantic argument as to why the attempted coup was not in fact an attempted coup, how about the attempt to "seize the power to install Trump as President in total disregard for the result of the free and fair election"?

Would that meet the criteria of your sematic word play?

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #431 on: June 10, 2022, 09:18:57 PM »
Definition: coup: "a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government."
....from the government: Check. He was attempting to disrupt the actions of congress, aka the legislative branch of government.
A "seizure of power" is not the same as "attempting to disrupt the actions", so I disagree with making that leap.  And I did warn people I was focused on the wording, so I hope this comment isn't bothersome or a surprise.

Although U.S. politicians wouldn't use the French term "coup d'etat", I think the Meriam Webster defintion for that best fits my undertanding of the word coup in this context.

"especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coup%20d'%C3%A9tat

More concisely, "the violent overthrow of a government", where I would argue "existing government" is relevent and others may disagree with me.  Did the violent mob "overthrow" the government?  I don't think so.

There was a risk that members of Congress could be attacked by a violent mob, but ultimately no member of Congress was attacked.  A proceeding of Congress was disrupted, and delayed by many hours - but it took place hours later.  The power to name the next President was not "seized", nor was a government "overthrown".

Agreed.

The Jan 6 attack on the US capitol was a failed coup attempt.  It didn't succeed well enough to be classified as a coup.

(This obviously doesn't in any way change the seriousness of the attempt though, or the concern that all citizens should feel that a elected president encouraged the attempt and has continued to lie about the legitimacy of the election.)
I acknowledge there is more to Jan 6th than what I'm focused on, the semantics of what to call the events of that day.  But that's why I've explained I'm exploring just the semantics, and don't expect that to be everyone's interest in the events.

The definition of coup mentions (violent) "seizure of power", while coup d'etat contains (violent) "overthrow", so I think those quoted phrases are equivalent.  The power being seized is all of it - the entire power of the government.  To call Jan 6th an attempted coup, I think there needs to be strong evidence some group was attempting to overthrow the government.

I'll make an assumption that the Oath Keepers Proud Boys I heard about in the news, and the criminals who plead guilty to "seditious conspiracy" (and many violent crimes) are the same group.  If this group of Oath Keepers Proud Boys was attempting a coup, I can't find any charges more serious than "seditious conspiracy", to which they've already plead guilty.  I guess that leaves me with two questions, again focused on the evidence for what to call this:
(1) If those Oath Keepers Proud Boys (a) planned to overthrow the government and (b) took one or more actions as part of that plan, why aren't they charged with more than "seditious conspiracy"?  (It's possible I missed something)

{{EDIT}}
Quote
Seditious conspiracy occurs when two or more people in the U.S. conspire to “overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force” the U.S. government, or to levy war against it, or to oppose by force and try to prevent the execution of any law. If convicted, it’s 20 years behind bars.
https://apnews.com/article/riots-conspiracy-9d22bdd4e2d4d786531ebe0fb8095de4
{{end EDIT}}

(2) Is there strong evidence tying one or more people in the U.S. government to the "seditious conspiracy" of those Oath Keepers Proud Boys?   (That might be a goal of the Jan 6th hearings, so maybe the answer to this question develops over the next week or so.)

{EDIT: News articles say it was the "Oath Keepers" who stormed the capital in military formations, not the Proud Boys}
{{2nd EDIT: I've answered question (1) above based on an AP news article I read}}
« Last Edit: June 10, 2022, 09:58:20 PM by MustacheAndaHalf »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #432 on: June 11, 2022, 12:36:46 AM »
As stated previously, I'm interested in a semantic discussion of what to call the events of Jan 6th.  For example, the definition of coup d'etat refers to a "seizure of power", so an attempted coup would be an attempted seizure of power.  And so my semantic question remains "seize what power?"
It seems you are interested in a definition that makes what happened appear to be not what actually happened.

Having said that, and in the full knowledge my response will be met with some semantic argument as to why the attempted coup was not in fact an attempted coup, how about the attempt to "seize the power to install Trump as President in total disregard for the result of the free and fair election"?

Would that meet the criteria of your sematic word play?
In another thread you argued with me about what constituted giving advice, even after I showed direct quotes where people were giving advice.  So if you're trying to mock me as doing "semantic word play"... pot calling kettle black?
My assumption is that in America the Left and Right do not even agree on definitions.

An AP article mentioned that the Oath Keepers were arranged in military formation and had some kind of plan when they entered the Capital.
https://apnews.com/article/riots-conspiracy-9d22bdd4e2d4d786531ebe0fb8095de4

The following list of crimes related to "U.S. Capital Violence" shows criminal charges for each person.  I assume the "seditious conspiracy" charges are the Oath Keepers mentioned in the AP article above.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases

Is there evidence these Oath Keepers had a plan to "seize the power to install Trump as President"?  Is there evidence members of the U.S. government helped them?

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #433 on: June 11, 2022, 02:38:04 AM »
As stated previously, I'm interested in a semantic discussion of what to call the events of Jan 6th.  For example, the definition of coup d'etat refers to a "seizure of power", so an attempted coup would be an attempted seizure of power.  And so my semantic question remains "seize what power?"
Trump was attempting to seize the power to continue acting as President on and after 20 January 2021.

This is in fact one of the classic kinds of coup: the politician who has been elected to a post in a (more or less) democractic election and then uses the power and publicity of that post to entrench themselves in that position
either through a series of (more or less legitimate) legal manoeuvres and/or the exercise of military or mob violence.  Historical and current examples are numerous.

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #434 on: June 11, 2022, 04:30:11 AM »
As stated previously, I'm interested in a semantic discussion of what to call the events of Jan 6th.  For example, the definition of coup d'etat refers to a "seizure of power", so an attempted coup would be an attempted seizure of power.  And so my semantic question remains "seize what power?"
Trump was attempting to seize the power to continue acting as President on and after 20 January 2021.

This is in fact one of the classic kinds of coup: the politician who has been elected to a post in a (more or less) democractic election and then uses the power and publicity of that post to entrench themselves in that position
either through a series of (more or less legitimate) legal manoeuvres and/or the exercise of military or mob violence.  Historical and current examples are numerous.

This.  It was an attempt to seize power being transferred to Biden.

I don’t see how this is even a discussion of semantics. Either you believe this was a violent attempt to block the transfer of power following a free and fair election, or you don’t. Had it been successful, Trump would have seized all power from the President-elect, and seized that power for as long as he remained.

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #435 on: June 11, 2022, 06:43:15 AM »
As stated previously, I'm interested in a semantic discussion of what to call the events of Jan 6th.  For example, the definition of coup d'etat refers to a "seizure of power", so an attempted coup would be an attempted seizure of power.  And so my semantic question remains "seize what power?"
Trump was attempting to seize the power to continue acting as President on and after 20 January 2021.

This is in fact one of the classic kinds of coup: the politician who has been elected to a post in a (more or less) democractic election and then uses the power and publicity of that post to entrench themselves in that position
either through a series of (more or less legitimate) legal manoeuvres and/or the exercise of military or mob violence.  Historical and current examples are numerous.

This.  It was an attempt to seize power being transferred to Biden.

I don’t see how this is even a discussion of semantics. Either you believe this was a violent attempt to block the transfer of power following a free and fair election, or you don’t. Had it been successful, Trump would have seized all power from the President-elect, and seized that power for as long as he remained.
Above I cited criminal chrages - proven evidence of what happened.  That's how I'm trying to view the events of Jan 6th.. in a court of law, what evidence would prove beyond a reasonable doubt that former President Donald J Trump started an insurrection.  In the news stories, I see evidence Trump said the election was stolen, but that's not the same thing.  For example, Brazil's President has questioned the American 2020 election - that doesn't mean he started an insurrection.  If this were a criminal court case, what charge would stick to former President Trump, and based on what evidence?

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #436 on: June 11, 2022, 07:47:20 AM »
As stated previously, I'm interested in a semantic discussion of what to call the events of Jan 6th.  For example, the definition of coup d'etat refers to a "seizure of power", so an attempted coup would be an attempted seizure of power.  And so my semantic question remains "seize what power?"
Trump was attempting to seize the power to continue acting as President on and after 20 January 2021.

This is in fact one of the classic kinds of coup: the politician who has been elected to a post in a (more or less) democractic election and then uses the power and publicity of that post to entrench themselves in that position
either through a series of (more or less legitimate) legal manoeuvres and/or the exercise of military or mob violence.  Historical and current examples are numerous.

This.  It was an attempt to seize power being transferred to Biden.

I don’t see how this is even a discussion of semantics. Either you believe this was a violent attempt to block the transfer of power following a free and fair election, or you don’t. Had it been successful, Trump would have seized all power from the President-elect, and seized that power for as long as he remained.
Above I cited criminal chrages - proven evidence of what happened.  That's how I'm trying to view the events of Jan 6th.. in a court of law, what evidence would prove beyond a reasonable doubt that former President Donald J Trump started an insurrection.  In the news stories, I see evidence Trump said the election was stolen, but that's not the same thing.  For example, Brazil's President has questioned the American 2020 election - that doesn't mean he started an insurrection.  If this were a criminal court case, what charge would stick to former President Trump, and based on what evidence?
You are moving on a bit from the semantic discussion we've been having, so does that mean you have accepted that what happened on January 6th can properly be described as a coup by the former President if evidence to a standard of criminal conviction is provided?  Because it would appear highly likely at the moment that such evidence will be forthcoming over the next few weeks.

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #437 on: June 11, 2022, 07:52:02 AM »
As stated previously, I'm interested in a semantic discussion of what to call the events of Jan 6th.  For example, the definition of coup d'etat refers to a "seizure of power", so an attempted coup would be an attempted seizure of power.  And so my semantic question remains "seize what power?"
Trump was attempting to seize the power to continue acting as President on and after 20 January 2021.

This is in fact one of the classic kinds of coup: the politician who has been elected to a post in a (more or less) democractic election and then uses the power and publicity of that post to entrench themselves in that position
either through a series of (more or less legitimate) legal manoeuvres and/or the exercise of military or mob violence.  Historical and current examples are numerous.

This.  It was an attempt to seize power being transferred to Biden.

I don’t see how this is even a discussion of semantics. Either you believe this was a violent attempt to block the transfer of power following a free and fair election, or you don’t. Had it been successful, Trump would have seized all power from the President-elect, and seized that power for as long as he remained.
Above I cited criminal chrages - proven evidence of what happened.  That's how I'm trying to view the events of Jan 6th.. in a court of law, what evidence would prove beyond a reasonable doubt that former President Donald J Trump started an insurrection.  In the news stories, I see evidence Trump said the election was stolen, but that's not the same thing.  For example, Brazil's President has questioned the American 2020 election - that doesn't mean he started an insurrection.  If this were a criminal court case, what charge would stick to former President Trump, and based on what evidence?

Here is the beginning of a very detailed accounting of what you seek:
https://youtu.be/qr3z2ObaWQM

This was more than him just a few public musings that the election was unfair. Using the power of his office, Trump repeatedly instructed and compelled high-ranking government officials to overturn the election results or halt the certification. Along the way he was repeatedly told that his claims were bogus and that the pathways he sought to swap electors and prevent the certification had no legal merit. He was told this by none other than the head of the DOJ - AG Barr and through dozens of failed court filing - most of which were tossed out for have absolutely no merit or legal standing.

In layman’s terms - he had been told what he was doing was illegal (repeatedly and by informed people), and yet he spent 6+ weeks doing it, and directing others to do so.
Or: he knew what he was doing wrong and yet he persisted and even escalated his efforts over a protracted time period.

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #438 on: June 11, 2022, 04:14:06 PM »
In another thread you argued with me about what constituted giving advice, even after I showed direct quotes where people were giving advice.  So if you're trying to mock me as doing "semantic word play"... pot calling kettle black?
Actually, if you are being truthful, I immediately admitted that advice was being given once you actually gave quotes of advice being given.  Honesty is a virtue.

As for pot calling kettle black, not at all.  You admit that all you are doing is arguing semantics.  I'm not mocking you for that.  I'm agreeing with you that that is indeed all you are doing.
Quote from: MustacheAndaHalf
My assumption is that in America the Left and Right do not even agree on definitions.

An AP article mentioned that the Oath Keepers were arranged in military formation and had some kind of plan when they entered the Capital.
https://apnews.com/article/riots-conspiracy-9d22bdd4e2d4d786531ebe0fb8095de4

The following list of crimes related to "U.S. Capital Violence" shows criminal charges for each person.  I assume the "seditious conspiracy" charges are the Oath Keepers mentioned in the AP article above.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases

Is there evidence these Oath Keepers had a plan to "seize the power to install Trump as President"?  Is there evidence members of the U.S. government helped them?
I guess one would first need to define semantically what constitutes evidence, what the meaning of "plan" is, what the definition of "attempt" is...........the list of semantics would doubtless be never ending if one so wanted.

Having said that, the simple answer to both your questions is yes, there is plenty.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #439 on: June 12, 2022, 01:16:59 AM »
After I presented evidence with links a few times, I hoped others would also provide links and information to answer questions.  But that's not happening.

EDIT to add:
Quote
Former President Donald Trump had a "sophisticated seven-point plan" to overturn the 2020 presidential election over the course of several months, January 6 committee Vice Chair Liz Cheney said, detailing how the panel plans to use its future hearings to tackle each part of the scheme.
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/09/politics/jan-6-hearing-cheney-trump-overturn-election-plan/index.html
« Last Edit: June 12, 2022, 01:49:37 AM by MustacheAndaHalf »

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #440 on: June 12, 2022, 06:41:18 AM »
After I presented evidence with links a few times, I hoped others would also provide links and information to answer questions.  But that's not happening.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/09/politics/jan-6-hearing-cheney-trump-overturn-election-plan/index.html

A great deal has been presented over the previous nine pages, as well as the issuing of criminal indictments, which you are free to read and comment on.

Mostly I see you arguing semantics and then shifting the subject when a clear case has been made (i.e. why January 6th can correctly described an “attempted coup”). 

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #441 on: June 13, 2022, 04:43:41 PM »
If you are watching the January 6 hearings, you should be seeing plenty of evidence of criminal behavior on TFG's part related to trying to obstruct official proceedings, deliberately inciting a riot, defrauding donors, etc.

It's interesting that all of the witnesses who have testified so far are Republicans, many in the inner circle (White House, family).


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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #443 on: June 14, 2022, 01:59:08 PM »
After I presented evidence with links a few times, I hoped others would also provide links and information to answer questions.  But that's not happening.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/09/politics/jan-6-hearing-cheney-trump-overturn-election-plan/index.html

A great deal has been presented over the previous nine pages, as well as the issuing of criminal indictments, which you are free to read and comment on.

Mostly I see you arguing semantics and then shifting the subject when a clear case has been made (i.e. why January 6th can correctly described an “attempted coup”).
I guess I want to simulate a court case.  The semantic arguments are a cover for developing arguments with evidence.  What I mostly see here, and almost certainly will see earlier, are statements that extrapolate from data to what people believe.  In a court case, witness must have personal knowledge and only experts share their opinions.  As might be expected, most forums don't adhere to that high standard.

For example, if former President Donald Trump was prosecuted for conspiring to start a riot, one approach would try to establish intent (like when another poster used the word "deliberately"), and another would simply show criminal negligence.  Trump ignored legal experts and advisors, and instead agreed with an inebriated
Rudy Giuliani.  That's one data point where intent isn't established.  Maybe it shows unreasonable negligence, and I don't know if that becomes a criminal charge.

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #444 on: June 14, 2022, 04:52:42 PM »
After I presented evidence with links a few times, I hoped others would also provide links and information to answer questions.  But that's not happening.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/09/politics/jan-6-hearing-cheney-trump-overturn-election-plan/index.html

A great deal has been presented over the previous nine pages, as well as the issuing of criminal indictments, which you are free to read and comment on.

Mostly I see you arguing semantics and then shifting the subject when a clear case has been made (i.e. why January 6th can correctly described an “attempted coup”).
I guess I want to simulate a court case.  The semantic arguments are a cover for developing arguments with evidence.  What I mostly see here, and almost certainly will see earlier, are statements that extrapolate from data to what people believe.  In a court case, witness must have personal knowledge and only experts share their opinions.  As might be expected, most forums don't adhere to that high standard.

For example, if former President Donald Trump was prosecuted for conspiring to start a riot, one approach would try to establish intent (like when another poster used the word "deliberately"), and another would simply show criminal negligence.  Trump ignored legal experts and advisors, and instead agreed with an inebriated
Rudy Giuliani.  That's one data point where intent isn't established.  Maybe it shows unreasonable negligence, and I don't know if that becomes a criminal charge.

What kind of court case - civil or criminal?  Those are two entirely different thing, and there’s a monumental difference in the likelihood that we’ll see one over the other.

You don’t really have to imagine - there are both ongoing civil and criminal cases with Trump listed as a defendant. Some others have been settled or dropped. There’s also the ongoing congressional hearings, which are doing a damn good job of laying out time-lines and testimony about specific events.

As for the hypothetical you mention above, a key takeaway of the Jan 6th congressional hearings thus far have been that it’s far more than a single data point or one instance of “unreasonable negligence” (as you put it).  There was at least three meetings with the AG over a month long period where Barr told Trump he cannot legally defend his claims.  His court filings were rejected by over a dozen courts before Jan 6th, most for being completely without merit. He had similar warnings by his chief of staff, senior advisors and a number of others.

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #445 on: June 15, 2022, 06:31:45 AM »
After I presented evidence with links a few times, I hoped others would also provide links and information to answer questions.  But that's not happening.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/09/politics/jan-6-hearing-cheney-trump-overturn-election-plan/index.html

A great deal has been presented over the previous nine pages, as well as the issuing of criminal indictments, which you are free to read and comment on.

Mostly I see you arguing semantics and then shifting the subject when a clear case has been made (i.e. why January 6th can correctly described an “attempted coup”).
I guess I want to simulate a court case.  The semantic arguments are a cover for developing arguments with evidence.  What I mostly see here, and almost certainly will see earlier, are statements that extrapolate from data to what people believe.  In a court case, witness must have personal knowledge and only experts share their opinions.  As might be expected, most forums don't adhere to that high standard.

For example, if former President Donald Trump was prosecuted for conspiring to start a riot, one approach would try to establish intent (like when another poster used the word "deliberately"), and another would simply show criminal negligence.  Trump ignored legal experts and advisors, and instead agreed with an inebriated
Rudy Giuliani.  That's one data point where intent isn't established.  Maybe it shows unreasonable negligence, and I don't know if that becomes a criminal charge.

What kind of court case - civil or criminal?  Those are two entirely different thing, and there’s a monumental difference in the likelihood that we’ll see one over the other.

You don’t really have to imagine - there are both ongoing civil and criminal cases with Trump listed as a defendant. Some others have been settled or dropped. There’s also the ongoing congressional hearings, which are doing a damn good job of laying out time-lines and testimony about specific events.

As for the hypothetical you mention above, a key takeaway of the Jan 6th congressional hearings thus far have been that it’s far more than a single data point or one instance of “unreasonable negligence” (as you put it).  There was at least three meetings with the AG over a month long period where Barr told Trump he cannot legally defend his claims.  His court filings were rejected by over a dozen courts before Jan 6th, most for being completely without merit. He had similar warnings by his chief of staff, senior advisors and a number of others.
yes. And in fact even before the election occurred he insinuated he would only respect the election results if they fell in his favor. I would suggest the installation of dejoy and all that happened with the USPS were also deliberate actions to subvert fair and free elections. Trump both within the White house, and he passed, and would have implemented ways to easily hire and fire Federal players essentially at will. There are numerous testimony from people who worked for 45, being asked if they were loyal to him. Not whether they would uphold the constitution, or are loyal to the US. Would place loyalty to him, over their legal sworn oaths. What his intent was, is clear. Even if his jokes of "president for life,has a nice ring to it" was stated as a joke, it shows his mental state.

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #446 on: June 15, 2022, 06:33:02 AM »
I'll give Trump credit. He may go down in history as one of the greatest con men of our era. He has spent his life duping folks out of money and yet, he managed to run a con against the Republican party duping them out of millions for a non existent fraud fund. It's the Nigerian Prince scam on steroids.

It's also rather eye opening knowing just how poorly he views his base of supporters.

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #447 on: June 15, 2022, 06:46:02 AM »
After I presented evidence with links a few times, I hoped others would also provide links and information to answer questions.  But that's not happening.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/09/politics/jan-6-hearing-cheney-trump-overturn-election-plan/index.html

A great deal has been presented over the previous nine pages, as well as the issuing of criminal indictments, which you are free to read and comment on.

Mostly I see you arguing semantics and then shifting the subject when a clear case has been made (i.e. why January 6th can correctly described an “attempted coup”).
I guess I want to simulate a court case.  The semantic arguments are a cover for developing arguments with evidence.  What I mostly see here, and almost certainly will see earlier, are statements that extrapolate from data to what people believe.  In a court case, witness must have personal knowledge and only experts share their opinions.  As might be expected, most forums don't adhere to that high standard.

For example, if former President Donald Trump was prosecuted for conspiring to start a riot, one approach would try to establish intent (like when another poster used the word "deliberately"), and another would simply show criminal negligence.  Trump ignored legal experts and advisors, and instead agreed with an inebriated
Rudy Giuliani.  That's one data point where intent isn't established.  Maybe it shows unreasonable negligence, and I don't know if that becomes a criminal charge.

What kind of court case - civil or criminal?  Those are two entirely different thing, and there’s a monumental difference in the likelihood that we’ll see one over the other.

You don’t really have to imagine - there are both ongoing civil and criminal cases with Trump listed as a defendant. Some others have been settled or dropped. There’s also the ongoing congressional hearings, which are doing a damn good job of laying out time-lines and testimony about specific events.

As for the hypothetical you mention above, a key takeaway of the Jan 6th congressional hearings thus far have been that it’s far more than a single data point or one instance of “unreasonable negligence” (as you put it).  There was at least three meetings with the AG over a month long period where Barr told Trump he cannot legally defend his claims.  His court filings were rejected by over a dozen courts before Jan 6th, most for being completely without merit. He had similar warnings by his chief of staff, senior advisors and a number of others.
yes. And in fact even before the election occurred he insinuated he would only respect the election results if they fell in his favor. I would suggest the installation of dejoy and all that happened with the USPS were also deliberate actions to subvert fair and free elections. Trump both within the White house, and he passed, and would have implemented ways to easily hire and fire Federal players essentially at will. There are numerous testimony from people who worked for 45, being asked if they were loyal to him. Not whether they would uphold the constitution, or are loyal to the US. Would place loyalty to him, over their legal sworn oaths. What his intent was, is clear. Even if his jokes of "president for life,has a nice ring to it" was stated as a joke, it shows his mental state.
The election meddling case is the strongest, although I don't know the penalty.  He was recorded asking an election official to find more votes, and the count he gave was the exact count he needed to win.

I'm not a lawyer.  I mostly know the levels of homicide, which go from planned in advance to negligence that should have been forseen.  What's why I used "criminal negligence".  From the charges I've seen, "seditious conspiracy" seems likely if a court can tie the actions of Oathkeepers to the President's people.

I'm very curious about former President Trump's comments about election fraud before the 2020 and even 2016 elections.  Even better if there's an article or youtube video (from a reputable source) that groups those comments together.  If you can show he disputed the election before it even happened, that seems like strong evidence of intent, to me.

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #448 on: June 15, 2022, 07:15:17 AM »
Trump has honed his skills for operating in legal gray areas through a lifetime of managing real estate.

He is sincere when he talks about how his own biography shows why the system is broken.

But he's managed to achieve a position of such fame (or infamy), with an entitlement so extreme that it warps our very system of law.

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Re: Continuing outrages related to our 45th President
« Reply #449 on: June 15, 2022, 07:20:57 AM »
But he's managed to achieve a position of such fame (or infamy), with an entitlement so extreme that it warps our very system of law.

Let's not oversell achievements.  He was handed a truly massive quantity of unearned money and business connections at the starting gates . . . and despite huge failure after huge failure resulting from poor decision making he still wasn't quite able to everything.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!