Author Topic: Congress UFO hearing  (Read 9543 times)

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 25625
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #50 on: July 28, 2023, 11:29:37 AM »
Interstellar travel would require some sort of faster than light speeds.

No it doesn't.  It just requires more time at lower speeds.

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4341
  • Location: Germany
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #51 on: July 28, 2023, 12:54:05 PM »
Interstellar travel would require some sort of faster than light speeds.

No it doesn't.  It just requires more time at lower speeds.
We are so egoistic we can't even safe our one planet if it means a light inconvenience. I doubt there are many selfless enough to start such a trip so their 43rd generation can have a look at a new planet.

PeteD01

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1822
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #52 on: July 28, 2023, 02:16:16 PM »
Quote
Let's just look at the concept of human space flight as envisioned today: it requires to see a human being as an individual entity that is separable from its environment with all relations described as interactions with said environment that then can be recreated in ersatz form using technical solutions.

Funny thing is that there is no good evidence that this is a view approaching reality.

Oh man I love this line of thinking, @PeteD01, it’s totally my philosophy. Love “taking care of the vessel” concept. You kind of lost me with the dualism, could you explain that a bit more?

Religious or metaphysical dualism in regards to the nature of the universe is typically the juxtaposition of an imaginary better world with the natural world.
It usually results in alienation from the natural world leading down a path towards disrespect for the natural world and a yearning for access to the better realm.
And the next thing you know is that they are trashing the mothership while looking for a way out.


EDIT: Ah, I think I see what you mean: The idea that individual humans are able to exist outside the web of planetary life.

Right, they would be able to exist as a kind of meat machine surrounded by life sustaining equipment running through its cycles, but that is a far cry from thriving in a web of social and other relations that define a human.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 25625
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #53 on: July 28, 2023, 02:47:45 PM »
Interstellar travel would require some sort of faster than light speeds.

No it doesn't.  It just requires more time at lower speeds.
We are so egoistic we can't even safe our one planet if it means a light inconvenience. I doubt there are many selfless enough to start such a trip so their 43rd generation can have a look at a new planet.

I didn't say it would work for us.  We've looking down the barrel of an extinction level event caused by ourselves . . . and refuse to limit our vacation travel, let alone make difficult descisions.  We are getting exactly the results we deserve as a species.

But we were surmising about the capabilities of a truly alien intelligence.  Hell, maybe eons aren't a very long time for these alien life forms so it's not any worse than driving a few hours to go somewhere to them.  Or maybe they move through time in a non-linear way.

sixwings

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 904
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #54 on: July 28, 2023, 03:41:24 PM »
Interstellar travel would require some sort of faster than light speeds.

No it doesn't.  It just requires more time at lower speeds.
We are so egoistic we can't even safe our one planet if it means a light inconvenience. I doubt there are many selfless enough to start such a trip so their 43rd generation can have a look at a new planet.

I didn't say it would work for us.  We've looking down the barrel of an extinction level event caused by ourselves . . . and refuse to limit our vacation travel, let alone make difficult descisions.  We are getting exactly the results we deserve as a species.

But we were surmising about the capabilities of a truly alien intelligence.  Hell, maybe eons aren't a very long time for these alien life forms so it's not any worse than driving a few hours to go somewhere to them.  Or maybe they move through time in a non-linear way.

Yeah this is the thing, earth is a relatively new planet and humans are a new species on the planet. Aliens probably are much more evolved than us to the point that we may not even be capable of comprehending them. Like when I was driving the other day there was probably an ant colony a few meters from the highway. Do you think those ants even have a concept of what the highway is, or what I was doing driving past? Or even that I drove past?

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 25625
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #55 on: July 28, 2023, 03:49:46 PM »
Interstellar travel would require some sort of faster than light speeds.

No it doesn't.  It just requires more time at lower speeds.
We are so egoistic we can't even safe our one planet if it means a light inconvenience. I doubt there are many selfless enough to start such a trip so their 43rd generation can have a look at a new planet.

I didn't say it would work for us.  We've looking down the barrel of an extinction level event caused by ourselves . . . and refuse to limit our vacation travel, let alone make difficult descisions.  We are getting exactly the results we deserve as a species.

But we were surmising about the capabilities of a truly alien intelligence.  Hell, maybe eons aren't a very long time for these alien life forms so it's not any worse than driving a few hours to go somewhere to them.  Or maybe they move through time in a non-linear way.

Yeah this is the thing, earth is a relatively new planet and humans are a new species on the planet. Aliens probably are much more evolved than us to the point that we may not even be capable of comprehending them. Like when I was driving the other day there was probably an ant colony a few meters from the highway. Do you think those ants even have a concept of what the highway is, or what I was doing driving past? Or even that I drove past?

They're having congressional hearings to discuss the unexplainable noise and rumbling caused by your vehicle.

HPstache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2990
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #56 on: July 28, 2023, 04:45:16 PM »
Interstellar travel would require some sort of faster than light speeds.

No it doesn't.  It just requires more time at lower speeds.

Another way to think about it is to observe how we humans currently explore Mars which is a "long" ways away for us.  We send technology/robots first.  It's possible that aliens send out artificially intelligent bots with no lifespan limits thousands of light years away to find hospitable planets, learn about the universe, find some rare resource, etc... what some people claim to see and have been encountered may not be flesh and blood ETs, but maybe technology made by them and even made to look like them.  Of course to beam any sort of information back would take the same insane number of light years, but it's possible if they have been sending out bots for eons that they receive staggered signals or returns of the bots from thousands of years before on a regular occurrence because they've been doing it for so long at a regular cadence.

Just Joe

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7766
  • Location: In the middle....
  • Teach me something.
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #57 on: July 28, 2023, 09:22:43 PM »
Interstellar travel would require some sort of faster than light speeds.

No it doesn't.  It just requires more time at lower speeds.

Well - crew lifespans, total available air on board, food stores, total energy expended slowly over impossible amounts of time, etc.

Lots of good reasons to try to go fast. 50 years and how far have the 1970s NASA satellites traveled?

Maybe some other species could manage those issues. We're not there yet obviously.

Just Joe

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7766
  • Location: In the middle....
  • Teach me something.
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #58 on: July 28, 2023, 09:25:38 PM »
Interstellar travel would require some sort of faster than light speeds.

No it doesn't.  It just requires more time at lower speeds.
We are so egoistic we can't even safe our one planet if it means a light inconvenience. I doubt there are many selfless enough to start such a trip so their 43rd generation can have a look at a new planet.

I could imagine a future crew so curious about life on earth that they would turn around and return. They might mythologize the oasis that earth could be. I think that is the word I'm thinking of.

I too would like us to improve the tangible more before we put too many resources into exploration. For one I'd like to trade a rocket launch or two for housing to help my town's homeless and more bike paths.

Just Joe

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7766
  • Location: In the middle....
  • Teach me something.
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2023, 09:30:57 PM »
I think I'll wrap up the evening by watching the most recent episode of Star Trek: Strange New Worlds... ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69mzZqcM0qw

Good night.


Herbert Derp

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1407
  • Age: 34
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #60 on: August 10, 2023, 01:42:10 AM »
This may be a controversial opinion, but I actually think it might be aliens. Yes, extraterrestrial aliens. Non-human intelligent life. Something is clearly going on, and this can’t all just be a hoax. Plus the Fermi Paradox wouldn’t be a paradox anymore!

It’s not just me. A lot of very credible people think it might be aliens, including NASA director Bill Nelson. There are some people in academia who are doing interesting things related to UAP, look up Garry Nolan and Avi Loeb. Haim Eshed, the former director of the Israeli space program, also says aliens are real. These aren’t some random people on the Internet…

Edit: there needs to be a poll on this subject, so I created one: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/what-do-you-think-the-ufos-are-(poll)/
« Last Edit: August 10, 2023, 02:21:43 AM by Herbert Derp »

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 20654
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #61 on: August 10, 2023, 02:55:52 AM »
No, not “this”.

 I’ve been scolded in the past for accidentally hijacking or altering the nature/direction of a conversation thread.  That’s what you are doing.  Start a new thread about “conservative distraction techniques” if that’s what you want to do.  Snore.

Back to the aliens…

Pointing out that the hearings are a distraction from other more important issues seems on topic to me. Taking it a step further and just discussing those other issues would being going off topic.




If the UFO hearing is intended as a distraction, it is unusually bipartisan.  Normally one side will make a distraction in an attempt to cover up something pertaining to their party's agenda.  What could be so big that both parties are trying to divert attention from it?  A UFO hearing is a jaw-dropping topic.  What could possibly require such a huge bipartisan smokescreen?  It's gott'a be something big!


I bet they've made Alien Contact, and are attempting to ease the public into the possibility of their existence.  What else could it be??!!

;)

Interesting that the aliens are just talking to the Americans...

Davnasty

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2812
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #62 on: August 10, 2023, 06:23:59 AM »
This may be a controversial opinion, but I actually think it might be aliens. Yes, extraterrestrial aliens. Non-human intelligent life. Something is clearly going on, and this can’t all just be a hoax. Plus the Fermi Paradox wouldn’t be a paradox anymore!

It’s not just me. A lot of very credible people think it might be aliens, including NASA director Bill Nelson. There are some people in academia who are doing interesting things related to UAP, look up Garry Nolan and Avi Loeb. Haim Eshed, the former director of the Israeli space program, also says aliens are real. These aren’t some random people on the Internet…

Edit: there needs to be a poll on this subject, so I created one: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/what-do-you-think-the-ufos-are-(poll)/

Maybe I'm looking at the wrong quote but I think this is a mischaracterization of what Bill Nelson said. "Are we alone? Personally, I don't think we are." ≠ I think these particular phenomena might be aliens.

Have any of the others you mentioned directly said they think the topic of these hearings might involve aliens?

The idea that aliens exist doesn't seem very controversial. Many in this thread have acknowledged the odds suggest they exist and I would agree. That they have visited earth and are a likely explanation for the topics of these hearings seems far less likely.

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4341
  • Location: Germany
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #63 on: August 10, 2023, 06:40:48 AM »
Interesting that the aliens are just talking to the Americans...
Clearly that's because Americans are special and more intelligent than the other humans, as they have shown when electing fraudster Trump as president!

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 25625
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #64 on: August 10, 2023, 07:11:41 AM »
No, not “this”.

 I’ve been scolded in the past for accidentally hijacking or altering the nature/direction of a conversation thread.  That’s what you are doing.  Start a new thread about “conservative distraction techniques” if that’s what you want to do.  Snore.

Back to the aliens…

Pointing out that the hearings are a distraction from other more important issues seems on topic to me. Taking it a step further and just discussing those other issues would being going off topic.




If the UFO hearing is intended as a distraction, it is unusually bipartisan.  Normally one side will make a distraction in an attempt to cover up something pertaining to their party's agenda.  What could be so big that both parties are trying to divert attention from it?  A UFO hearing is a jaw-dropping topic.  What could possibly require such a huge bipartisan smokescreen?  It's gott'a be something big!


I bet they've made Alien Contact, and are attempting to ease the public into the possibility of their existence.  What else could it be??!!

;)

Interesting that the aliens are just talking to the Americans...

Maybe they want Dennis Rodman back?

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 20654
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #65 on: August 10, 2023, 08:12:23 AM »
Interesting that the aliens are just talking to the Americans...
Clearly that's because Americans are special and more intelligent than the other humans, as they have shown when electing fraudster Trump as president!

I feel like if Aliens visited and decided to choose a country to make quiet contact with, it would probably be Finland, they would be like "yeah, those naked, sweaty weirdos can totally handle this and keep their fucking mouths shut."

The Finns would 100% not tell the rest of the world if they were in contact with aliens and they would just laugh at all of us for the fuss we make about it.

I'm not buying that the aliens are talking to the Americans, my money is on the Finns.

Herbert Derp

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1407
  • Age: 34
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #66 on: August 10, 2023, 08:26:21 AM »
Maybe I'm looking at the wrong quote but I think this is a mischaracterization of what Bill Nelson said. "Are we alone? Personally, I don't think we are." ≠ I think these particular phenomena might be aliens.

Have any of the others you mentioned directly said they think the topic of these hearings might involve aliens?

In this interview Bill Nelson made it pretty clear that UFOs might be aliens:
https://qz.com/2078505/the-head-of-nasa-says-life-probably-exists-outside-earth

The other people I mentioned are True Believers and are all on the record as saying that they believe the Earth is actually being visited by aliens. Google them, and you’ll find some really interesting stuff. Haim Eshed made claims so dramatic that I would have dismissed them out of hand if he hadn’t been in charge of the Israeli space program for 30 years. Garry Nolan has been studying UFOs for a long time and has tons of interesting interviews on YouTube.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2023, 08:38:37 AM by Herbert Derp »

Luke Warm

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 996
  • Location: Ain't no time to wonder why
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #67 on: August 10, 2023, 08:44:31 AM »
Interesting that the aliens are just talking to the Americans...
Clearly that's because Americans are special and more intelligent than the other humans, as they have shown when electing fraudster Trump as president!

I feel like if Aliens visited and decided to choose a country to make quiet contact with, it would probably be Finland, they would be like "yeah, those naked, sweaty weirdos can totally handle this and keep their fucking mouths shut."

The Finns would 100% not tell the rest of the world if they were in contact with aliens and they would just laugh at all of us for the fuss we make about it.

I'm not buying that the aliens are talking to the Americans, my money is on the Finns.

Maybe the Finns ARE the aliens

jinga nation

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2826
  • Age: 248
  • Location: 'Murica's Dong
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #68 on: August 10, 2023, 08:48:00 AM »
Maybe I'm looking at the wrong quote but I think this is a mischaracterization of what Bill Nelson said. "Are we alone? Personally, I don't think we are." ≠ I think these particular phenomena might be aliens.

Have any of the others you mentioned directly said they think the topic of these hearings might involve aliens?

In this interview Bill Nelson made it pretty clear that UFOs might be aliens:
https://qz.com/2078505/the-head-of-nasa-says-life-probably-exists-outside-earth

The other people I mentioned are True Believers and are all on the record as saying that they believe the Earth is actually being visited by aliens. Google them, and you’ll find some really interesting stuff. Haim Eshed made claims so dramatic that I would have dismissed them out of hand if he hadn’t been in charge of the Israeli space program for 30 years. Garry Nolan has been studying UFOs for a long time and has tons of interesting interviews on YouTube.

I'm 100% sure Bill Nelson saw aliens in his spaceflight. But he's ex-Army, ex-politician, and current NASA Administrator, so he'll never tell us the truth. /s

Quote
In 1986 he flew on space shuttle mission STS-61C, the 24th flight of the Space Shuttle Program. Aboard the space shuttle Columbia, he orbited the Earth 98 times over six days. Nelson conducted 12 medical experiments including the first American stress test in space and a cancer research experiment sponsored by university researchers.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 20654
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #69 on: August 10, 2023, 09:20:03 AM »
Interesting that the aliens are just talking to the Americans...
Clearly that's because Americans are special and more intelligent than the other humans, as they have shown when electing fraudster Trump as president!

I feel like if Aliens visited and decided to choose a country to make quiet contact with, it would probably be Finland, they would be like "yeah, those naked, sweaty weirdos can totally handle this and keep their fucking mouths shut."

The Finns would 100% not tell the rest of the world if they were in contact with aliens and they would just laugh at all of us for the fuss we make about it.

I'm not buying that the aliens are talking to the Americans, my money is on the Finns.

Maybe the Finns ARE the aliens

That seems pretty plausible actually...

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4341
  • Location: Germany
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #70 on: August 10, 2023, 09:37:13 AM »
Interesting that the aliens are just talking to the Americans...
Clearly that's because Americans are special and more intelligent than the other humans, as they have shown when electing fraudster Trump as president!

I feel like if Aliens visited and decided to choose a country to make quiet contact with, it would probably be Finland, they would be like "yeah, those naked, sweaty weirdos can totally handle this and keep their fucking mouths shut."

The Finns would 100% not tell the rest of the world if they were in contact with aliens and they would just laugh at all of us for the fuss we make about it.

I'm not buying that the aliens are talking to the Americans, my money is on the Finns.

Maybe the Finns ARE the aliens

That seems pretty plausible actually...
Personally, I would think it's the Dalai Lama. He is constantly laughing about all us humans, and really, who believes this reborn shit? He is just taking over bodies to live forever!

Radagast

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2790
  • One Does Not Simply Work Into Mordor
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2023, 09:20:59 PM »
I never quite understood the Fermi paradox as it seems to rest on a false premise and that is the assumption that there is something that puts intelligent beings inevitably on a  track towards sending beings into space.

I think that is a wrong assumption based on anthropomorphizing in a pretty narrow sense.

Intelligent beings capable of developing the means of interstellar space travel might be too smart to get into the rocket.

Even here on earth a small change in attitude makes the endeavor questionable.

Let's just look at the concept of human space flight as envisioned today: it requires to see a human being as an individual entity that is separable from its environment with all relations described as interactions with said environment that then can be recreated in ersatz form using technical solutions.

Funny thing is that there is no good evidence that this is a view approaching reality.

Another view would be to see biologic entities as physical manifestations of an underlying roiling interconnected biologic/chemical/physical stream of chains of events, with the individual entity simply being a physical instantiation participating in the setting of conditions for the next round.

Looked at this way, space travel would represent an excision of a transient quality from a much larger process. (Or think of it as trying to cut a wave out of the Atlantic ocean and send it to Mars.)

Understanding biological entities in this way makes it philosophically rather difficult to even conceive of a way to send humans on long distance space trips - disconnected from everything that caused it to exist, now existing in a simulacrum of environment, that what arrives at the destination might not be human anymore in the way we experience it. (Or just imagine Elon Musk under a rock on Mars - that's an alien alright.)

There is another seemingly plausible explanation for the Fermi paradox: emerging intelligent societies will inevitably discover nuclear fission/fusion and will inevitably blow themselves up before being able to launch.
That is the filter hypothesis.
But it's just another case of anthropomorphizing by people during the cold war who were involved in the atomic bomb development.

For me personally there is no Fermi paradox, and the absence of observable aliens comes down to "too smart to launch".
Smarts good enough to theoretically being able to conduct interstellar travel are probably more likely to lead to the understanding that one is already in space and taking care of the vessel takes priority.

And I didn´t dive further into this alien thing after getting to this point many years ago. I cannot see it as a productive train of inquiry.
 
I am also skeptical about the amount of anthropomorphism in popular ET theories. Both the "Fermi Paradox" and "Drake Equation" don't describe the odds of finding extraterrestrials, they describe the odds of describing humans. Specifically Drake and Fermi's conception of humans. There's no reason to even think that ET would or could even conceive of the same concept.

That said, not sure if I am fully on board with with humans being inseparable from their environment. Did anyone who ever went above 17,000 feet (the highest permanent human habitation) become non or less human?

Fru-Gal

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2331
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #72 on: August 15, 2023, 11:24:02 PM »
The only way they were able to stay alive for a 6-month stint on the ISS is with constant resupply every 8 weeks from Earth. Further, there are major health risks from being in space, including radiation, bone and muscle loss, celestial dust, enclosed environments, etc. https://www.nasa.gov/hrp/bodyinspace

That said I do think it would be possible to create a closed terrarium-type vessel as we’ve seen depicted in science fiction.

My point about humans being part of the web of life is that we downplay how much we need it, and how dangerous imbalances in the web of life can be to us (e.g. Covid, species loss, pollution).

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 20654
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #73 on: August 16, 2023, 04:23:21 AM »
I never quite understood the Fermi paradox as it seems to rest on a false premise and that is the assumption that there is something that puts intelligent beings inevitably on a  track towards sending beings into space.

I think that is a wrong assumption based on anthropomorphizing in a pretty narrow sense.

Intelligent beings capable of developing the means of interstellar space travel might be too smart to get into the rocket.

Even here on earth a small change in attitude makes the endeavor questionable.

Let's just look at the concept of human space flight as envisioned today: it requires to see a human being as an individual entity that is separable from its environment with all relations described as interactions with said environment that then can be recreated in ersatz form using technical solutions.

Funny thing is that there is no good evidence that this is a view approaching reality.

Another view would be to see biologic entities as physical manifestations of an underlying roiling interconnected biologic/chemical/physical stream of chains of events, with the individual entity simply being a physical instantiation participating in the setting of conditions for the next round.

Looked at this way, space travel would represent an excision of a transient quality from a much larger process. (Or think of it as trying to cut a wave out of the Atlantic ocean and send it to Mars.)

Understanding biological entities in this way makes it philosophically rather difficult to even conceive of a way to send humans on long distance space trips - disconnected from everything that caused it to exist, now existing in a simulacrum of environment, that what arrives at the destination might not be human anymore in the way we experience it. (Or just imagine Elon Musk under a rock on Mars - that's an alien alright.)

There is another seemingly plausible explanation for the Fermi paradox: emerging intelligent societies will inevitably discover nuclear fission/fusion and will inevitably blow themselves up before being able to launch.
That is the filter hypothesis.
But it's just another case of anthropomorphizing by people during the cold war who were involved in the atomic bomb development.

For me personally there is no Fermi paradox, and the absence of observable aliens comes down to "too smart to launch".
Smarts good enough to theoretically being able to conduct interstellar travel are probably more likely to lead to the understanding that one is already in space and taking care of the vessel takes priority.

And I didn´t dive further into this alien thing after getting to this point many years ago. I cannot see it as a productive train of inquiry.
 
I am also skeptical about the amount of anthropomorphism in popular ET theories. Both the "Fermi Paradox" and "Drake Equation" don't describe the odds of finding extraterrestrials, they describe the odds of describing humans. Specifically Drake and Fermi's conception of humans. There's no reason to even think that ET would or could even conceive of the same concept.

That said, not sure if I am fully on board with with humans being inseparable from their environment. Did anyone who ever went above 17,000 feet (the highest permanent human habitation) become non or less human?

I just wrote a paper on this and inseparable doesn't so much mean that humans can't be physically separated from their environment, it means that we aren't as discrete from their environment as we imagine ourselves to be. We are more biologically contiguous with the world around us than we tend to think.

What it means is you can't separate the concept of the human from their ecosystem. Where exactly does the human end and the environment begin??

You can remove a single human from the organismal whole and it will survive for some amount of time depending on the conditions, the same way you can remove human cells and keep them alive, it all depends on the conditions of the artificial environment.

Just because you can carve part of an organism away and keep it alive doesn't mean it's a totally separate organism. Humans aren't even well defined as organisms, because of our microbiomes, we're reasonably well defined as diverse, complex environments ourselves.

We're just one of the layers of the larger ecosystem of life.

blue_green_sparks

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 679
  • FIRE'd 2018
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2023, 05:20:14 AM »
I never quite understood the Fermi paradox as it seems to rest on a false premise and that is the assumption that there is something that puts intelligent beings inevitably on a  track towards sending beings into space.

I think that is a wrong assumption based on anthropomorphizing in a pretty narrow sense.

Intelligent beings capable of developing the means of interstellar space travel might be too smart to get into the rocket.

Even here on earth a small change in attitude makes the endeavor questionable.

Let's just look at the concept of human space flight as envisioned today: it requires to see a human being as an individual entity that is separable from its environment with all relations described as interactions with said environment that then can be recreated in ersatz form using technical solutions.

Funny thing is that there is no good evidence that this is a view approaching reality.

Another view would be to see biologic entities as physical manifestations of an underlying roiling interconnected biologic/chemical/physical stream of chains of events, with the individual entity simply being a physical instantiation participating in the setting of conditions for the next round.

Looked at this way, space travel would represent an excision of a transient quality from a much larger process. (Or think of it as trying to cut a wave out of the Atlantic ocean and send it to Mars.)

Understanding biological entities in this way makes it philosophically rather difficult to even conceive of a way to send humans on long distance space trips - disconnected from everything that caused it to exist, now existing in a simulacrum of environment, that what arrives at the destination might not be human anymore in the way we experience it. (Or just imagine Elon Musk under a rock on Mars - that's an alien alright.)

There is another seemingly plausible explanation for the Fermi paradox: emerging intelligent societies will inevitably discover nuclear fission/fusion and will inevitably blow themselves up before being able to launch.
That is the filter hypothesis.
But it's just another case of anthropomorphizing by people during the cold war who were involved in the atomic bomb development.

For me personally there is no Fermi paradox, and the absence of observable aliens comes down to "too smart to launch".
Smarts good enough to theoretically being able to conduct interstellar travel are probably more likely to lead to the understanding that one is already in space and taking care of the vessel takes priority.

And I didn´t dive further into this alien thing after getting to this point many years ago. I cannot see it as a productive train of inquiry.
 
I am also skeptical about the amount of anthropomorphism in popular ET theories. Both the "Fermi Paradox" and "Drake Equation" don't describe the odds of finding extraterrestrials, they describe the odds of describing humans. Specifically Drake and Fermi's conception of humans. There's no reason to even think that ET would or could even conceive of the same concept.

That said, not sure if I am fully on board with with humans being inseparable from their environment. Did anyone who ever went above 17,000 feet (the highest permanent human habitation) become non or less human?

I just wrote a paper on this and inseparable doesn't so much mean that humans can't be physically separated from their environment, it means that we aren't as discrete from their environment as we imagine ourselves to be. We are more biologically contiguous with the world around us than we tend to think.

What it means is you can't separate the concept of the human from their ecosystem. Where exactly does the human end and the environment begin??

You can remove a single human from the organismal whole and it will survive for some amount of time depending on the conditions, the same way you can remove human cells and keep them alive, it all depends on the conditions of the artificial environment.

Just because you can carve part of an organism away and keep it alive doesn't mean it's a totally separate organism. Humans aren't even well defined as organisms, because of our microbiomes, we're reasonably well defined as diverse, complex environments ourselves.

We're just one of the layers of the larger ecosystem of life.
Well-Spoken @Metalcat. I think many TV shows and movies depict an oversimplified view of space travel and extraterrestrial relocation. Space is incredibly lethal in so many ways.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 25625
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #75 on: August 16, 2023, 07:11:42 AM »
I never quite understood the Fermi paradox as it seems to rest on a false premise and that is the assumption that there is something that puts intelligent beings inevitably on a  track towards sending beings into space.

I think that is a wrong assumption based on anthropomorphizing in a pretty narrow sense.

Intelligent beings capable of developing the means of interstellar space travel might be too smart to get into the rocket.

Even here on earth a small change in attitude makes the endeavor questionable.

Let's just look at the concept of human space flight as envisioned today: it requires to see a human being as an individual entity that is separable from its environment with all relations described as interactions with said environment that then can be recreated in ersatz form using technical solutions.

Funny thing is that there is no good evidence that this is a view approaching reality.

Another view would be to see biologic entities as physical manifestations of an underlying roiling interconnected biologic/chemical/physical stream of chains of events, with the individual entity simply being a physical instantiation participating in the setting of conditions for the next round.

Looked at this way, space travel would represent an excision of a transient quality from a much larger process. (Or think of it as trying to cut a wave out of the Atlantic ocean and send it to Mars.)

Understanding biological entities in this way makes it philosophically rather difficult to even conceive of a way to send humans on long distance space trips - disconnected from everything that caused it to exist, now existing in a simulacrum of environment, that what arrives at the destination might not be human anymore in the way we experience it. (Or just imagine Elon Musk under a rock on Mars - that's an alien alright.)

There is another seemingly plausible explanation for the Fermi paradox: emerging intelligent societies will inevitably discover nuclear fission/fusion and will inevitably blow themselves up before being able to launch.
That is the filter hypothesis.
But it's just another case of anthropomorphizing by people during the cold war who were involved in the atomic bomb development.

For me personally there is no Fermi paradox, and the absence of observable aliens comes down to "too smart to launch".
Smarts good enough to theoretically being able to conduct interstellar travel are probably more likely to lead to the understanding that one is already in space and taking care of the vessel takes priority.

And I didn´t dive further into this alien thing after getting to this point many years ago. I cannot see it as a productive train of inquiry.
 
I am also skeptical about the amount of anthropomorphism in popular ET theories. Both the "Fermi Paradox" and "Drake Equation" don't describe the odds of finding extraterrestrials, they describe the odds of describing humans. Specifically Drake and Fermi's conception of humans. There's no reason to even think that ET would or could even conceive of the same concept.

That said, not sure if I am fully on board with with humans being inseparable from their environment. Did anyone who ever went above 17,000 feet (the highest permanent human habitation) become non or less human?

We anthropomorphize because we're terrible and conceptualizing truly alien life.  That's why so many shows just end up with races of humans with botched plastic surgery.  Hell, we don't even have a very good definition of what life is.  Truly alien life would probably be so different from what we're expecting that we wouldn't recognize it as even being alive.

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4341
  • Location: Germany
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #76 on: August 16, 2023, 07:49:05 AM »
Quote
That's why so many shows just end up with races of humans with botched plastic surgery.
Well, no. That's because it's a lot easier to get human-shaped actors and put a pair of fake ears on them than it is to get an ET shaped actor.
For Babylon 5, the Narn mask took 3-4 hours to put on. And those are still very much humanoid! It took years to solve Mollaris standing hair and Delenns "bones" over her hair never really worked.

You say CGI? Like Jar Jar Bings and and all that stuff that looked like a child's painting? Have you ever watched a CGI anime? There are a few and I know no one that said it looks good.
You can get very good CGI, but atm it's still hilariously expensive.

And if that changed you would still have the problem of the watchers accepting the Aliens.  That doesn't even need to have to do with anthropomorphization. It could be the same reason why actors tend to be not ugly (except they are the bad guys). Sex and beauty sells.

Dancin'Dog

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1924
  • Location: Here & There
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #77 on: August 16, 2023, 07:55:12 AM »
I never quite understood the Fermi paradox as it seems to rest on a false premise and that is the assumption that there is something that puts intelligent beings inevitably on a  track towards sending beings into space.

I think that is a wrong assumption based on anthropomorphizing in a pretty narrow sense.

Intelligent beings capable of developing the means of interstellar space travel might be too smart to get into the rocket.

Even here on earth a small change in attitude makes the endeavor questionable.

Let's just look at the concept of human space flight as envisioned today: it requires to see a human being as an individual entity that is separable from its environment with all relations described as interactions with said environment that then can be recreated in ersatz form using technical solutions.

Funny thing is that there is no good evidence that this is a view approaching reality.

Another view would be to see biologic entities as physical manifestations of an underlying roiling interconnected biologic/chemical/physical stream of chains of events, with the individual entity simply being a physical instantiation participating in the setting of conditions for the next round.

Looked at this way, space travel would represent an excision of a transient quality from a much larger process. (Or think of it as trying to cut a wave out of the Atlantic ocean and send it to Mars.)

Understanding biological entities in this way makes it philosophically rather difficult to even conceive of a way to send humans on long distance space trips - disconnected from everything that caused it to exist, now existing in a simulacrum of environment, that what arrives at the destination might not be human anymore in the way we experience it. (Or just imagine Elon Musk under a rock on Mars - that's an alien alright.)

There is another seemingly plausible explanation for the Fermi paradox: emerging intelligent societies will inevitably discover nuclear fission/fusion and will inevitably blow themselves up before being able to launch.
That is the filter hypothesis.
But it's just another case of anthropomorphizing by people during the cold war who were involved in the atomic bomb development.

For me personally there is no Fermi paradox, and the absence of observable aliens comes down to "too smart to launch".
Smarts good enough to theoretically being able to conduct interstellar travel are probably more likely to lead to the understanding that one is already in space and taking care of the vessel takes priority.

And I didn´t dive further into this alien thing after getting to this point many years ago. I cannot see it as a productive train of inquiry.
 
I am also skeptical about the amount of anthropomorphism in popular ET theories. Both the "Fermi Paradox" and "Drake Equation" don't describe the odds of finding extraterrestrials, they describe the odds of describing humans. Specifically Drake and Fermi's conception of humans. There's no reason to even think that ET would or could even conceive of the same concept.

That said, not sure if I am fully on board with with humans being inseparable from their environment. Did anyone who ever went above 17,000 feet (the highest permanent human habitation) become non or less human?

We anthropomorphize because we're terrible and conceptualizing truly alien life.  That's why so many shows just end up with races of humans with botched plastic surgery.  Hell, we don't even have a very good definition of what life is.  Truly alien life would probably be so different from what we're expecting that we wouldn't recognize it as even being alive.


Unless they're trying to eat or kill us, of course.  :~)

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 25625
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #78 on: August 16, 2023, 07:58:47 AM »
I never quite understood the Fermi paradox as it seems to rest on a false premise and that is the assumption that there is something that puts intelligent beings inevitably on a  track towards sending beings into space.

I think that is a wrong assumption based on anthropomorphizing in a pretty narrow sense.

Intelligent beings capable of developing the means of interstellar space travel might be too smart to get into the rocket.

Even here on earth a small change in attitude makes the endeavor questionable.

Let's just look at the concept of human space flight as envisioned today: it requires to see a human being as an individual entity that is separable from its environment with all relations described as interactions with said environment that then can be recreated in ersatz form using technical solutions.

Funny thing is that there is no good evidence that this is a view approaching reality.

Another view would be to see biologic entities as physical manifestations of an underlying roiling interconnected biologic/chemical/physical stream of chains of events, with the individual entity simply being a physical instantiation participating in the setting of conditions for the next round.

Looked at this way, space travel would represent an excision of a transient quality from a much larger process. (Or think of it as trying to cut a wave out of the Atlantic ocean and send it to Mars.)

Understanding biological entities in this way makes it philosophically rather difficult to even conceive of a way to send humans on long distance space trips - disconnected from everything that caused it to exist, now existing in a simulacrum of environment, that what arrives at the destination might not be human anymore in the way we experience it. (Or just imagine Elon Musk under a rock on Mars - that's an alien alright.)

There is another seemingly plausible explanation for the Fermi paradox: emerging intelligent societies will inevitably discover nuclear fission/fusion and will inevitably blow themselves up before being able to launch.
That is the filter hypothesis.
But it's just another case of anthropomorphizing by people during the cold war who were involved in the atomic bomb development.

For me personally there is no Fermi paradox, and the absence of observable aliens comes down to "too smart to launch".
Smarts good enough to theoretically being able to conduct interstellar travel are probably more likely to lead to the understanding that one is already in space and taking care of the vessel takes priority.

And I didn´t dive further into this alien thing after getting to this point many years ago. I cannot see it as a productive train of inquiry.
 
I am also skeptical about the amount of anthropomorphism in popular ET theories. Both the "Fermi Paradox" and "Drake Equation" don't describe the odds of finding extraterrestrials, they describe the odds of describing humans. Specifically Drake and Fermi's conception of humans. There's no reason to even think that ET would or could even conceive of the same concept.

That said, not sure if I am fully on board with with humans being inseparable from their environment. Did anyone who ever went above 17,000 feet (the highest permanent human habitation) become non or less human?

We anthropomorphize because we're terrible and conceptualizing truly alien life.  That's why so many shows just end up with races of humans with botched plastic surgery.  Hell, we don't even have a very good definition of what life is.  Truly alien life would probably be so different from what we're expecting that we wouldn't recognize it as even being alive.


Unless they're trying to eat or kill us, of course.  :~)

You're assuming alien life would need to eat.  :P

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4341
  • Location: Germany
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #79 on: August 16, 2023, 08:31:16 AM »
Unless they're trying to eat or kill us, of course.  :~)

You're assuming alien life would need to eat.  :P

And that it would be able to digest us.

Luke Warm

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 996
  • Location: Ain't no time to wonder why
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #80 on: August 16, 2023, 10:10:12 AM »
There have been some good non-human aliens on TV and movies. The original Star Trek had some. Wasn't one a large rock?
There were the heptapods in Arrival. There was some Tom Cruise movie where he gets killed over and over by aliens. They were non-human looking.
There was a book I read recently (can't remember off the top of my head) that there were martians but no-one new what they looked like so they couldn't see them.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 20654
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #81 on: August 16, 2023, 02:29:50 PM »
There have been some good non-human aliens on TV and movies. The original Star Trek had some. Wasn't one a large rock?
There were the heptapods in Arrival. There was some Tom Cruise movie where he gets killed over and over by aliens. They were non-human looking.
There was a book I read recently (can't remember off the top of my head) that there were martians but no-one new what they looked like so they couldn't see them.

Who doesn't love tribbles?

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 25625
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #82 on: August 16, 2023, 02:31:12 PM »
There have been some good non-human aliens on TV and movies. The original Star Trek had some. Wasn't one a large rock?
There were the heptapods in Arrival. There was some Tom Cruise movie where he gets killed over and over by aliens. They were non-human looking.
There was a book I read recently (can't remember off the top of my head) that there were martians but no-one new what they looked like so they couldn't see them.

Who doesn't love tribbles?

I think original series Star Trek was much better about this than the later versions . . . but it was still overwhelmingly the botched plastic surgery aliens.

Dancin'Dog

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1924
  • Location: Here & There
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #83 on: August 16, 2023, 03:04:28 PM »
There have been some good non-human aliens on TV and movies. The original Star Trek had some. Wasn't one a large rock?
There were the heptapods in Arrival. There was some Tom Cruise movie where he gets killed over and over by aliens. They were non-human looking.
There was a book I read recently (can't remember off the top of my head) that there were martians but no-one new what they looked like so they couldn't see them.

Who doesn't love tribbles?

I think original series Star Trek was much better about this than the later versions . . . but it was still overwhelmingly the botched plastic surgery aliens.


They never even went to the trouble of a classic horse-style costume with someone in the front half & someone in the rear.  I think maybe there was one alien with three breasts, but maybe that was a different show.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 20654
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #84 on: August 16, 2023, 03:41:49 PM »
There have been some good non-human aliens on TV and movies. The original Star Trek had some. Wasn't one a large rock?
There were the heptapods in Arrival. There was some Tom Cruise movie where he gets killed over and over by aliens. They were non-human looking.
There was a book I read recently (can't remember off the top of my head) that there were martians but no-one new what they looked like so they couldn't see them.

Who doesn't love tribbles?

I think original series Star Trek was much better about this than the later versions . . . but it was still overwhelmingly the botched plastic surgery aliens.


They never even went to the trouble of a classic horse-style costume with someone in the front half & someone in the rear.  I think maybe there was one alien with three breasts, but maybe that was a different show.

That's Total Recall

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 21151
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #85 on: August 16, 2023, 04:56:39 PM »
There have been some good non-human aliens on TV and movies. The original Star Trek had some. Wasn't one a large rock?
There were the heptapods in Arrival. There was some Tom Cruise movie where he gets killed over and over by aliens. They were non-human looking.
There was a book I read recently (can't remember off the top of my head) that there were martians but no-one new what they looked like so they couldn't see them.

Who doesn't love tribbles?

I think original series Star Trek was much better about this than the later versions . . . but it was still overwhelmingly the botched plastic surgery aliens.


They never even went to the trouble of a classic horse-style costume with someone in the front half & someone in the rear.  I think maybe there was one alien with three breasts, but maybe that was a different show.

That's Total Recall

And breasts are really pushing it.  Here they only happen in one group of mammals.  Why should we expect alien life to even have backbones let alone breasts?

There are lots of interesting aliens in SF, but they basically don't make it on screen because they are hard to do.  Although Starship Troopers did an OK job with the spider-mimics. 

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 20654
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #86 on: August 16, 2023, 05:14:59 PM »
There have been some good non-human aliens on TV and movies. The original Star Trek had some. Wasn't one a large rock?
There were the heptapods in Arrival. There was some Tom Cruise movie where he gets killed over and over by aliens. They were non-human looking.
There was a book I read recently (can't remember off the top of my head) that there were martians but no-one new what they looked like so they couldn't see them.

Who doesn't love tribbles?

I think original series Star Trek was much better about this than the later versions . . . but it was still overwhelmingly the botched plastic surgery aliens.


They never even went to the trouble of a classic horse-style costume with someone in the front half & someone in the rear.  I think maybe there was one alien with three breasts, but maybe that was a different show.

That's Total Recall

And breasts are really pushing it.  Here they only happen in one group of mammals.  Why should we expect alien life to even have backbones let alone breasts?

There are lots of interesting aliens in SF, but they basically don't make it on screen because they are hard to do.  Although Starship Troopers did an OK job with the spider-mimics.

In Batteries Not Included, the UFOs *were* the aliens.

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 21151
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #87 on: August 16, 2023, 06:53:09 PM »
There have been some good non-human aliens on TV and movies. The original Star Trek had some. Wasn't one a large rock?
There were the heptapods in Arrival. There was some Tom Cruise movie where he gets killed over and over by aliens. They were non-human looking.
There was a book I read recently (can't remember off the top of my head) that there were martians but no-one new what they looked like so they couldn't see them.

Who doesn't love tribbles?

I think original series Star Trek was much better about this than the later versions . . . but it was still overwhelmingly the botched plastic surgery aliens.


They never even went to the trouble of a classic horse-style costume with someone in the front half & someone in the rear.  I think maybe there was one alien with three breasts, but maybe that was a different show.

That's Total Recall

And breasts are really pushing it.  Here they only happen in one group of mammals.  Why should we expect alien life to even have backbones let alone breasts?

There are lots of interesting aliens in SF, but they basically don't make it on screen because they are hard to do.  Although Starship Troopers did an OK job with the spider-mimics.

In Batteries Not Included, the UFOs *were* the aliens.

In The Magnificent Wilf a quivering jelly that was supposed to be dessert was intelligent.

The more basic question is that of intelligent (by our definition) life.  There could be lots of life elsewhere, but unless it includes species that both want to travel beyond their planet and have the capability to do so, they will be there and we will be here and never the twain shall meet.  After all, Homo sapiens is a pretty short blip in our planet's history.

And of course there is always the possibility that we are the universe's equivalent of the really bad neighbourhood where you really do not want to go.  When I look at our activities, I can't help but think that if there are intelligent aliens, there might be the equivalent of the Mother Thing keeping an eye on us so we don't get into more trouble. 

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 25625
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #88 on: August 16, 2023, 08:34:32 PM »
There have been some good non-human aliens on TV and movies. The original Star Trek had some. Wasn't one a large rock?
There were the heptapods in Arrival. There was some Tom Cruise movie where he gets killed over and over by aliens. They were non-human looking.
There was a book I read recently (can't remember off the top of my head) that there were martians but no-one new what they looked like so they couldn't see them.

Who doesn't love tribbles?

I think original series Star Trek was much better about this than the later versions . . . but it was still overwhelmingly the botched plastic surgery aliens.


They never even went to the trouble of a classic horse-style costume with someone in the front half & someone in the rear.  I think maybe there was one alien with three breasts, but maybe that was a different show.

That's Total Recall

And breasts are really pushing it.  Here they only happen in one group of mammals.  Why should we expect alien life to even have backbones let alone breasts?

There are lots of interesting aliens in SF, but they basically don't make it on screen because they are hard to do.  Although Starship Troopers did an OK job with the spider-mimics.

In Batteries Not Included, the UFOs *were* the aliens.

Batteries Not Included is one of those great movies I watched as a kid in the 80s that was absolutely not suitable for kids.  Rewatched to see if I should show it to my kid . . . Nudity?  Profanity?  Chicano gangsters beating the crap out of people and burning apartment buildings down with people in them?  How the hell was this a movie my dad OK'd for me at 8 years old?

Just Joe

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7766
  • Location: In the middle....
  • Teach me something.
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #89 on: August 17, 2023, 08:41:00 AM »
When I look at our activities, I can't help but think that if there are intelligent aliens, there might be the equivalent of the Mother Thing keeping an eye on us so we don't get into more trouble.

Well, she needs to hurry up and force Putin into "retirement".

PeteD01

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1822
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #90 on: August 17, 2023, 10:32:24 AM »
I never quite understood the Fermi paradox as it seems to rest on a false premise and that is the assumption that there is something that puts intelligent beings inevitably on a  track towards sending beings into space.

I think that is a wrong assumption based on anthropomorphizing in a pretty narrow sense.

Intelligent beings capable of developing the means of interstellar space travel might be too smart to get into the rocket.

Even here on earth a small change in attitude makes the endeavor questionable.

Let's just look at the concept of human space flight as envisioned today: it requires to see a human being as an individual entity that is separable from its environment with all relations described as interactions with said environment that then can be recreated in ersatz form using technical solutions.

Funny thing is that there is no good evidence that this is a view approaching reality.

Another view would be to see biologic entities as physical manifestations of an underlying roiling interconnected biologic/chemical/physical stream of chains of events, with the individual entity simply being a physical instantiation participating in the setting of conditions for the next round.

Looked at this way, space travel would represent an excision of a transient quality from a much larger process. (Or think of it as trying to cut a wave out of the Atlantic ocean and send it to Mars.)

Understanding biological entities in this way makes it philosophically rather difficult to even conceive of a way to send humans on long distance space trips - disconnected from everything that caused it to exist, now existing in a simulacrum of environment, that what arrives at the destination might not be human anymore in the way we experience it. (Or just imagine Elon Musk under a rock on Mars - that's an alien alright.)

There is another seemingly plausible explanation for the Fermi paradox: emerging intelligent societies will inevitably discover nuclear fission/fusion and will inevitably blow themselves up before being able to launch.
That is the filter hypothesis.
But it's just another case of anthropomorphizing by people during the cold war who were involved in the atomic bomb development.

For me personally there is no Fermi paradox, and the absence of observable aliens comes down to "too smart to launch".
Smarts good enough to theoretically being able to conduct interstellar travel are probably more likely to lead to the understanding that one is already in space and taking care of the vessel takes priority.

And I didn´t dive further into this alien thing after getting to this point many years ago. I cannot see it as a productive train of inquiry.
 
I am also skeptical about the amount of anthropomorphism in popular ET theories. Both the "Fermi Paradox" and "Drake Equation" don't describe the odds of finding extraterrestrials, they describe the odds of describing humans. Specifically Drake and Fermi's conception of humans. There's no reason to even think that ET would or could even conceive of the same concept.

That said, not sure if I am fully on board with with humans being inseparable from their environment. Did anyone who ever went above 17,000 feet (the highest permanent human habitation) become non or less human?

I just wrote a paper on this and inseparable doesn't so much mean that humans can't be physically separated from their environment, it means that we aren't as discrete from their environment as we imagine ourselves to be. We are more biologically contiguous with the world around us than we tend to think.

What it means is you can't separate the concept of the human from their ecosystem. Where exactly does the human end and the environment begin??

You can remove a single human from the organismal whole and it will survive for some amount of time depending on the conditions, the same way you can remove human cells and keep them alive, it all depends on the conditions of the artificial environment.

Just because you can carve part of an organism away and keep it alive doesn't mean it's a totally separate organism. Humans aren't even well defined as organisms, because of our microbiomes, we're reasonably well defined as diverse, complex environments ourselves.

We're just one of the layers of the larger ecosystem of life.

Yes, the reductionist biological view has its merits where appropriate, but that view should not be taken as representative of reality.

Interestingly, the ecological view is in all likelihood far more common and has been the pre-eminent view humans always had prior to scientific reductionism.

Let's just imagine asking someone from the premodern world who and what they are. Such an individual would not describe themselves in biologic terms but via its environmental relations such as family, ancestors, place where they live and die, politics, the work they do, the languages they speak, and the food they eat, and so forth.

There would likely be mention of the spirit or spirits and animals that inhabit the world and their relationships to the people.

This is clearly an ecological view in which human (and non-human) individuality emerges from the uncountable variety of relations an organism has in the world.

Try to explain to a premodern person that idea of plucking an organism out of this intricate web of relations and placing it in a tin can with life support equipment in order to explore the stars - the sheer madness of it all.

At this point, I suppose, the person would likely recommend a good shaman who can help with that.

The good news is that modern ecological views are entirely compatible with these traditional views

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 20654
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #91 on: August 17, 2023, 10:57:33 AM »
I never quite understood the Fermi paradox as it seems to rest on a false premise and that is the assumption that there is something that puts intelligent beings inevitably on a  track towards sending beings into space.

I think that is a wrong assumption based on anthropomorphizing in a pretty narrow sense.

Intelligent beings capable of developing the means of interstellar space travel might be too smart to get into the rocket.

Even here on earth a small change in attitude makes the endeavor questionable.

Let's just look at the concept of human space flight as envisioned today: it requires to see a human being as an individual entity that is separable from its environment with all relations described as interactions with said environment that then can be recreated in ersatz form using technical solutions.

Funny thing is that there is no good evidence that this is a view approaching reality.

Another view would be to see biologic entities as physical manifestations of an underlying roiling interconnected biologic/chemical/physical stream of chains of events, with the individual entity simply being a physical instantiation participating in the setting of conditions for the next round.

Looked at this way, space travel would represent an excision of a transient quality from a much larger process. (Or think of it as trying to cut a wave out of the Atlantic ocean and send it to Mars.)

Understanding biological entities in this way makes it philosophically rather difficult to even conceive of a way to send humans on long distance space trips - disconnected from everything that caused it to exist, now existing in a simulacrum of environment, that what arrives at the destination might not be human anymore in the way we experience it. (Or just imagine Elon Musk under a rock on Mars - that's an alien alright.)

There is another seemingly plausible explanation for the Fermi paradox: emerging intelligent societies will inevitably discover nuclear fission/fusion and will inevitably blow themselves up before being able to launch.
That is the filter hypothesis.
But it's just another case of anthropomorphizing by people during the cold war who were involved in the atomic bomb development.

For me personally there is no Fermi paradox, and the absence of observable aliens comes down to "too smart to launch".
Smarts good enough to theoretically being able to conduct interstellar travel are probably more likely to lead to the understanding that one is already in space and taking care of the vessel takes priority.

And I didn´t dive further into this alien thing after getting to this point many years ago. I cannot see it as a productive train of inquiry.
 
I am also skeptical about the amount of anthropomorphism in popular ET theories. Both the "Fermi Paradox" and "Drake Equation" don't describe the odds of finding extraterrestrials, they describe the odds of describing humans. Specifically Drake and Fermi's conception of humans. There's no reason to even think that ET would or could even conceive of the same concept.

That said, not sure if I am fully on board with with humans being inseparable from their environment. Did anyone who ever went above 17,000 feet (the highest permanent human habitation) become non or less human?

I just wrote a paper on this and inseparable doesn't so much mean that humans can't be physically separated from their environment, it means that we aren't as discrete from their environment as we imagine ourselves to be. We are more biologically contiguous with the world around us than we tend to think.

What it means is you can't separate the concept of the human from their ecosystem. Where exactly does the human end and the environment begin??

You can remove a single human from the organismal whole and it will survive for some amount of time depending on the conditions, the same way you can remove human cells and keep them alive, it all depends on the conditions of the artificial environment.

Just because you can carve part of an organism away and keep it alive doesn't mean it's a totally separate organism. Humans aren't even well defined as organisms, because of our microbiomes, we're reasonably well defined as diverse, complex environments ourselves.

We're just one of the layers of the larger ecosystem of life.

Yes, the reductionist biological view has its merits where appropriate, but that view should not be taken as representative of reality.

Interestingly, the ecological view is in all likelihood far more common and has been the pre-eminent view humans always had prior to scientific reductionism.

Let's just imagine asking someone from the premodern world who and what they are. Such an individual would not describe themselves in biologic terms but via its environmental relations such as family, ancestors, place where they live and die, politics, the work they do, the languages they speak, and the food they eat, and so forth.

There would likely be mention of the spirit or spirits and animals that inhabit the world and their relationships to the people.

This is clearly an ecological view in which human (and non-human) individuality emerges from the uncountable variety of relations an organism has in the world.

Try to explain to a premodern person that idea of plucking an organism out of this intricate web of relations and placing it in a tin can with life support equipment in order to explore the stars - the sheer madness of it all.

At this point, I suppose, the person would likely recommend a good shaman who can help with that.

The good news is that modern ecological views are entirely compatible with these traditional views

Lol, yeah. I recently wrote a paper about how the reductionist concept of the self is the essentially an iatrogenic element of psychology. Ontological conceptualizations are just common fucking sense, really.

I was arguing that Carl Rogers was an ontological ecopsychologist all along and everyone who has studied him since just missed the fucking point. Lol. It was a fun paper to write.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8371
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #92 on: August 17, 2023, 02:33:44 PM »
^ Excellent discussion above. The old rebuttal would be that curiosity is inseparable from intelligence. Therefore if intelligence evolves, it will become curious, and eventually that curiosity will drive intelligent life into space.

However, we humans are not curious about all things. Our curiosity is somewhat directed by our values, beliefs, culture, evolved traits, and body configurations. I can't help but to wonder if civilizations on earth evolved from dolphins, whether those dolphins would be more interested in exploring the deep sea rather than space. For humans, space is more interesting because it allows our primary sensory organ - vision in a spectrum of light - to see extreme distances. Dolphins might find the deep sea more interesting because they have sonar. Intelligent plants might be primarily interested in meteorology or geology. The attention-starved astronomers in an intelligent civilization of dolphins or trees might only be consulted or heard from when there is an issue, the way we treat meteorologists or oceanographers. Or simply, what if intelligent ET civilizations must meet their needs in ways that cannot be industrialized - for example, having to graze or filter food 90% of their waking hours? That might mean there's insufficient opportunity for tech development or education.

Also, much of humanity's space technology was developed to fight wars with one another. If humans had maintained a state of world peace, how many centuries or millennia would have been required to develop the technologies of the 20th century? And if we're not constantly interested in lobbing projectiles and explosives at each other, at what point does the aerospace information learned generations ago get lost to history faster than it can be reproduced? Humans fight wars because our bodily configurations, evolutionary history, sexual habits, and environmental needs favor raiding, competitor destruction, and resource acquisition behaviors. But other forms of intelligent life might not have the competitive/aggressive drives of humans - intelligent ocean plants or hive species for example. Other intelligent species might be too competitive/aggressive to cooperate and escape the Hobbesian state of nature - and that means no space program for them too.

Maybe they just evolve in a direction that doesn't involve language or prehensile appendages. Or maybe their lifespans are too short for their scientists to perform for very long at their peak. Or maybe their planet is permanently covered with clouds, and so they never even wonder about the stars they can't see - just like the opacity and darkness of the ocean and ground keeps most humans from wondering what lives in the deep sea or the soil. There are lots of ways for intelligent life to evolve and be unable, unwilling, or uninterested.

Intelligent aquatic animals or plants would also face the space exploration barriers of how to lift into space the heavy water or soil they need to immerse themselves in, whereas we primates mostly require lightweight air to immerse ourselves in. These weight requirements might make rockets an engineering impossibility for their species. Similarly, the math might not work out for species developing kerosene rockets on higher-gravity planets, species with metabolic needs that require them to pack more air, water, or solids than humans, or species whose planets lack fossil fuels.

The space shuttles could lift 2,270kg to geostationary orbit, but their takeoff weight was 2,030,000kg so the payload represented 0.1% of the total weight of vehicle, load, and fuel. And that's to geostationary orbit, not launching things into deep space! Had earth's gravity been 0.1% greater, this particular spacecraft design might have never been able to put things into orbit. Maybe other designs could work on slightly more massive exoplanets, but I think this example illustrates the tightness of the engineering tolerances for civilizations starting out in space travel. And if a civilization cannot possibly start a rocket-based space program, do they just give up on space altogether before developing next-generation technologies? Maybe.

Out of the 1,400 star systems within 50 light years of Earth, let's very generously assume intelligent species could possibly evolve on 1/200 star systems, or exactly seven of them. For some planet or moon in that star system, the radiation is right, the gravity is right, the temperature, gas pressure, and environmental toxicity are right, etc. The planet or moon and its system stays geologically and temperature stable with flowing water and weather cycles for millions of years at a time.

Let's also generously assume the intelligent civilizations which formed over the past billion years can exist for an average 200k years (by comparison, we're <5k years from Babylon, so this is a very generous guess). Let's also generously assume intelligent civilization eventually evolves in 100% of circumstances where they could evolve. Under these assumptions, there is a (200k/1B=) 0.02% chance any particular intelligent civilization that occurred is existing at this (or any other) time. So out of the seven habitable systems within 50 light-years, you have a 1.4% chance of coexisting with at least one of them at the same time.

Let's assume it takes at least 5k years, as it did with humans, for a species to evolve from civilization-building to space-traveling and wireless communication and let's assume they continue these behaviors until the day they suddenly go extinct, rather than declining or evolving away their intelligence for the last few tens of thousands of years of the civilization's existence. This leaves them with 195k years to develop technologies which break what we consider to be the laws of physics (e.g. faster than light travel) and make physical contact with our civilization. This lowers the 1.4% odds negligibly. I won't bother with the math.

Then let's reduce that number by a guessed percentage of the number of civilizations that for whatever reason (resources like fossil fuels and aluminum, traits of their bodies or psychology, traits of the planet such as gravity or tidal lock, peacefulness/hostility, interest/desire) do not develop space programs. An 80% reduction sounds like a good WAG to me because there are so many good reasons. Now we're down to 0.28% odds of being within 50 light years of a space-faring ET.

Now, out of that 0.28% chance, let's assess the probability that our ETs actually figure out how to break the known laws of physics and travel faster than light and then decelerate without dying, figure out how to shield their spacecraft from cosmic and solar radiation, and hover in gravitational environments without ejecting mass. If there is no possible physics-compatible solution to ALL of these issues, there can be no UFO's flying around the countryside. Of course, they may have thousands of years to work on these problems, and humanity broke a lot of the old assumptions over the past 150 years, so this is the hardest factor to assess. A human from just a few generations ago could not have possibly imagined where science and culture would take us, so guessing what problems an intelligent civilization can solve is a humbling task. Let's split the difference and say the odds are 50/50 that a motivated and able alien civilization could, after a few thousand years of work, figure out how to violate what we know as the laws of physics.

So now our odds of UFOs are 0.14%. However these are the odds of alien civilizations within 50 light years possessing the required spacecraft at this time, not the odds that they visited earth or that the people who claim they saw UFO's actually saw one of these spacecraft. I.e. people would say they saw UFOs and strange things would appear on cameras and radars whether we were being visited by ETs or not. There is a 100% chance of some false electronic signals, misunderstood signals/sightings, manifestations of mental illness, spontaneous hallucinations in otherwise sane people, and outright frauds. What we know about humans is they make up stuff, and what we know about cameras is that the images can be deceiving.

Actually visiting earth, even from a star system <50 light years away might take an ET civilization hundreds of years to accomplish once they decided to do it, or it might be so costly in terms of the labor, energy, and resources required to launch the expedition that exploration is done extremely slowly. Consider that we choose to spend only a fraction of 1% of GDP on space exploration and R&D and that we haven't yet bothered to fully explore most of the ecosystems in our own oceans or rainforests even though we have the capacity to do so. Note that the ETs might also have 1,400 star systems to explore within 50 light years of themselves and only a couple hundred thousand years to do it. Our system might not have made the prioritization list if it's not easy to get to or doesn't look like their star system. Maybe they are desperately seeking a new planet which looks like theirs, and Earth is not it - too much gravity to hold up those light-bulb heads or whatever. So let's say there's a 50/50 chance that if an ET civilization with UFO technology exists within 50 light years of us, they are interested (and reckless?) enough to send UFOs to fly around in our planet's atmosphere in plain view of a few people. So let's reduce our 0.14% chance of UFO existence to a 0.07% chance of UFO sightings being real and leave it at that.

simonsez

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1689
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #93 on: August 17, 2023, 05:41:47 PM »
However, we humans are not curious about all things. Our curiosity is somewhat directed by our values, beliefs, culture, evolved traits, and body configurations. I can't help but to wonder if civilizations on earth evolved from dolphins, whether those dolphins would be more interested in exploring the deep sea rather than space. For humans, space is more interesting because it allows our primary sensory organ - vision in a spectrum of light - to see extreme distances. Dolphins might find the deep sea more interesting because they have sonar. Intelligent plants might be primarily interested in meteorology or geology. The attention-starved astronomers in an intelligent civilization of dolphins or trees might only be consulted or heard from when there is an issue, the way we treat meteorologists or oceanographers. Or simply, what if intelligent ET civilizations must meet their needs in ways that cannot be industrialized - for example, having to graze or filter food 90% of their waking hours? That might mean there's insufficient opportunity for tech development or education.
You have this human curious about what humans are not curious about.  I feel like there are people who will geek out about darn near everything.  Also, how are you defining vision as the primary sensory organ?  I'm not disagreeing per se, but are you defining this by brain power required or some level of sophistication or ease of survival (due to a particular sense) or some other metric?  I could see arguments for all kinds of senses being the dominant one - vision would definitely be up there.  Touch would have to be pretty high up on a list as well but I guess it comes down to how one is defining it. 

Tangent: Would a penis or vagina (and related reproductive equipment needed) with the ability to orgasm be considered a sensory organ?  There are specific stimuli, there is an organ involved, there are specific nerves and areas of the brain devoted, and the "sense" of orgasm itself is distinct from touch so I wouldn't consider it under the umbrella of the touch sense.  I'm not saying it would be the primary one though you could argue without it we wouldn't exist as a species (though that could be true for basically all of the senses) - I just think there are more than the 5 I learned about all those years ago in school.  E.g. I've heard balance, itch, pain, and hunger could be considered additional senses.

Additional Tangent: I find the phrase "blind as a bat" fascinating because their vision is superior to humans, just who needs to rely on vision when your hearing is orders of magnitude better than we can even dream about!

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8371
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #94 on: August 18, 2023, 07:17:56 AM »
However, we humans are not curious about all things. Our curiosity is somewhat directed by our values, beliefs, culture, evolved traits, and body configurations. I can't help but to wonder if civilizations on earth evolved from dolphins, whether those dolphins would be more interested in exploring the deep sea rather than space. For humans, space is more interesting because it allows our primary sensory organ - vision in a spectrum of light - to see extreme distances. Dolphins might find the deep sea more interesting because they have sonar. Intelligent plants might be primarily interested in meteorology or geology. The attention-starved astronomers in an intelligent civilization of dolphins or trees might only be consulted or heard from when there is an issue, the way we treat meteorologists or oceanographers. Or simply, what if intelligent ET civilizations must meet their needs in ways that cannot be industrialized - for example, having to graze or filter food 90% of their waking hours? That might mean there's insufficient opportunity for tech development or education.
You have this human curious about what humans are not curious about.  I feel like there are people who will geek out about darn near everything.  Also, how are you defining vision as the primary sensory organ?  I'm not disagreeing per se, but are you defining this by brain power required or some level of sophistication or ease of survival (due to a particular sense) or some other metric?  I could see arguments for all kinds of senses being the dominant one - vision would definitely be up there.  Touch would have to be pretty high up on a list as well but I guess it comes down to how one is defining it. 

Tangent: Would a penis or vagina (and related reproductive equipment needed) with the ability to orgasm be considered a sensory organ?  There are specific stimuli, there is an organ involved, there are specific nerves and areas of the brain devoted, and the "sense" of orgasm itself is distinct from touch so I wouldn't consider it under the umbrella of the touch sense.  I'm not saying it would be the primary one though you could argue without it we wouldn't exist as a species (though that could be true for basically all of the senses) - I just think there are more than the 5 I learned about all those years ago in school.  E.g. I've heard balance, itch, pain, and hunger could be considered additional senses.

Additional Tangent: I find the phrase "blind as a bat" fascinating because their vision is superior to humans, just who needs to rely on vision when your hearing is orders of magnitude better than we can even dream about!
In terms of brain space applied to the sense, touch is the primary sense.

However, I think non-blind people pay the most attention to their vision. In terms of which sense interests us most, vision is primary, even if it does not require as much brain real estate. Things would have evolved differently on a dark planet, in murky waters, or on a planet always enveloped in dense fog.

One could argue about whether various flavors of touch (itch, pain) are separate senses but I would lump them together. I do think balance / gravity orientation is an unappreciated separate sense. Orgasm has traditionally been understood as a spastic response to certain stimuli going through the other senses, and I see no reason to think of it as a separate sense. It is interesting to think about what topics humans are interested in though ;)

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 20654
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #95 on: August 19, 2023, 05:13:09 AM »
As a former neuroscientist, this conversation is entertaining.

Radagast

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2790
  • One Does Not Simply Work Into Mordor
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #96 on: August 19, 2023, 08:14:20 PM »
I never quite understood the Fermi paradox as it seems to rest on a false premise and that is the assumption that there is something that puts intelligent beings inevitably on a  track towards sending beings into space.

I think that is a wrong assumption based on anthropomorphizing in a pretty narrow sense.

Intelligent beings capable of developing the means of interstellar space travel might be too smart to get into the rocket.

Even here on earth a small change in attitude makes the endeavor questionable.

Let's just look at the concept of human space flight as envisioned today: it requires to see a human being as an individual entity that is separable from its environment with all relations described as interactions with said environment that then can be recreated in ersatz form using technical solutions.

Funny thing is that there is no good evidence that this is a view approaching reality.

Another view would be to see biologic entities as physical manifestations of an underlying roiling interconnected biologic/chemical/physical stream of chains of events, with the individual entity simply being a physical instantiation participating in the setting of conditions for the next round.

Looked at this way, space travel would represent an excision of a transient quality from a much larger process. (Or think of it as trying to cut a wave out of the Atlantic ocean and send it to Mars.)

Understanding biological entities in this way makes it philosophically rather difficult to even conceive of a way to send humans on long distance space trips - disconnected from everything that caused it to exist, now existing in a simulacrum of environment, that what arrives at the destination might not be human anymore in the way we experience it. (Or just imagine Elon Musk under a rock on Mars - that's an alien alright.)

There is another seemingly plausible explanation for the Fermi paradox: emerging intelligent societies will inevitably discover nuclear fission/fusion and will inevitably blow themselves up before being able to launch.
That is the filter hypothesis.
But it's just another case of anthropomorphizing by people during the cold war who were involved in the atomic bomb development.

For me personally there is no Fermi paradox, and the absence of observable aliens comes down to "too smart to launch".
Smarts good enough to theoretically being able to conduct interstellar travel are probably more likely to lead to the understanding that one is already in space and taking care of the vessel takes priority.

And I didn´t dive further into this alien thing after getting to this point many years ago. I cannot see it as a productive train of inquiry.
 
I am also skeptical about the amount of anthropomorphism in popular ET theories. Both the "Fermi Paradox" and "Drake Equation" don't describe the odds of finding extraterrestrials, they describe the odds of describing humans. Specifically Drake and Fermi's conception of humans. There's no reason to even think that ET would or could even conceive of the same concept.

That said, not sure if I am fully on board with with humans being inseparable from their environment. Did anyone who ever went above 17,000 feet (the highest permanent human habitation) become non or less human?

I just wrote a paper on this and inseparable doesn't so much mean that humans can't be physically separated from their environment, it means that we aren't as discrete from their environment as we imagine ourselves to be. We are more biologically contiguous with the world around us than we tend to think.

What it means is you can't separate the concept of the human from their ecosystem. Where exactly does the human end and the environment begin??

You can remove a single human from the organismal whole and it will survive for some amount of time depending on the conditions, the same way you can remove human cells and keep them alive, it all depends on the conditions of the artificial environment.

Just because you can carve part of an organism away and keep it alive doesn't mean it's a totally separate organism. Humans aren't even well defined as organisms, because of our microbiomes, we're reasonably well defined as diverse, complex environments ourselves.

We're just one of the layers of the larger ecosystem of life.

Yes, the reductionist biological view has its merits where appropriate, but that view should not be taken as representative of reality.

Interestingly, the ecological view is in all likelihood far more common and has been the pre-eminent view humans always had prior to scientific reductionism.

Let's just imagine asking someone from the premodern world who and what they are. Such an individual would not describe themselves in biologic terms but via its environmental relations such as family, ancestors, place where they live and die, politics, the work they do, the languages they speak, and the food they eat, and so forth.

There would likely be mention of the spirit or spirits and animals that inhabit the world and their relationships to the people.

This is clearly an ecological view in which human (and non-human) individuality emerges from the uncountable variety of relations an organism has in the world.

Try to explain to a premodern person that idea of plucking an organism out of this intricate web of relations and placing it in a tin can with life support equipment in order to explore the stars - the sheer madness of it all.

At this point, I suppose, the person would likely recommend a good shaman who can help with that.

The good news is that modern ecological views are entirely compatible with these traditional views

Lol, yeah. I recently wrote a paper about how the reductionist concept of the self is the essentially an iatrogenic element of psychology. Ontological conceptualizations are just common fucking sense, really.

I was arguing that Carl Rogers was an ontological ecopsychologist all along and everyone who has studied him since just missed the fucking point. Lol. It was a fun paper to write.
OK I think I understand better now. It's not that you lose a part of your soul by entering space, it's that humans would not be able to sustain themselves or propagate over any meaningful number of generations away from Earth, and even that would likely have lower quality of life and be less healthy. Humans will not, or cannot, overcome this through technology. In fact, even thinking that a technological "solution" is possible is missing the point.

I think I was thrown by this part "what arrives at the destination might not be human anymore in the way we experience it" because... why would something arriving not be human if it looks, smells, walks, talks, and shares the genetics of a human? And was a human when it left? Otherwise I'd have agreed. I'm not 100% on board, but I'd agree that this is the accepted reality unless proven otherwise, and I think it is unlikely that any development in my life will prove it or even come close.

Just Joe

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7766
  • Location: In the middle....
  • Teach me something.
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #97 on: August 19, 2023, 11:37:03 PM »
Sci-fi TV and movies deal with it by FTL travel.

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4341
  • Location: Germany
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #98 on: August 20, 2023, 05:06:26 AM »
Sci-fi TV and movies deal with it by FTL travel.
Also it would be quite boring watch people doing nothing for a few centuries.

Just Joe

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7766
  • Location: In the middle....
  • Teach me something.
Re: Congress UFO hearing
« Reply #99 on: August 20, 2023, 01:04:24 PM »
Wouldn't it though? Preview for season twenty-three are the same as season two through twenty-two. Crew is still asleep. Similar space-scape views. Oh no - blower fan #78 wore out and robot XYZ repaired it.

What was that? Something unidentified zoomed by 200 light years away at 8:32 in the lower right side of the screen.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!