Author Topic: Conflict at the border  (Read 3632 times)

Just Joe

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #50 on: December 23, 2018, 04:03:45 PM »
These asylum seekers won't be safe in Mexico, other Latin American, or South American country?

Won't be safe relocating within their own country? Putting some distance between themselves and their tormentor?

I recognize that the USA is the preferred destination. Not sure that the USA, Canada, and Western Europe can support the world's needy.

Can we help these people live better lives in their home countries?

Laserjet3051

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #51 on: December 23, 2018, 04:25:16 PM »
These asylum seekers won't be safe in Mexico, other Latin American, or South American country?

Won't be safe relocating within their own country? Putting some distance between themselves and their tormentor?

I recognize that the USA is the preferred destination. Not sure that the USA, Canada, and Western Europe can support the world's needy.

Can we help these people live better lives in their home countries?

joe, that's just crazy talk. Where did you come up with such radical ideas?

RetiredAt63

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2018, 04:29:20 PM »
These asylum seekers won't be safe in Mexico, other Latin American, or South American country?

Won't be safe relocating within their own country? Putting some distance between themselves and their tormentor?

I recognize that the USA is the preferred destination. Not sure that the USA, Canada, and Western Europe can support the world's needy.

Can we help these people live better lives in their home countries?

Joe, the thing is that Canada has a safe third party agreement with the US.  This assumes that anyone accepted as a refugee in the US is safe, we don't take them.  We take people directly (i.e. the Syrian refugees). This is why last winter we had people crossing the border away from entry points, they didn't feel safe in the US and they knew we would turn them back at a border crossing.  So someone coming into the US and making the trek north will be assumed to be in a safe third party country and refused.

If anyone has more direct knowledge of Canadian immigration policy as it would apply to these refugees, please add it.


Kris

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2018, 04:29:39 PM »
These asylum seekers won't be safe in Mexico, other Latin American, or South American country?

Won't be safe relocating within their own country? Putting some distance between themselves and their tormentor?

I recognize that the USA is the preferred destination. Not sure that the USA, Canada, and Western Europe can support the world's needy.

Can we help these people live better lives in their home countries?

Can we help them in their home countries?

Well, I suppose we could invent a time machine and go back a hundred years ago, for starters..

https://medium.com/s/story/timeline-us-intervention-central-america-a9bea9ebc148

Just Joe

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #54 on: December 23, 2018, 04:34:58 PM »
Could we do a better job than the last time?

former player

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #55 on: December 23, 2018, 04:42:26 PM »
Could we do a better job than the last time?
What do you think has changed since last time?

Just Joe

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #56 on: December 27, 2018, 09:31:01 PM »
In the past our govt's has overthrown foreign governments leading to a less stable society. Perhaps go in and offer to make improvements without a political coup?

Poundwise

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2018, 01:25:08 PM »
I like lively conversation. But can we cut this bullshit about immigrants can take the jobs that legal workers don’t want or refuse to want? That’s bullshit!  There’s not a damn job anywhere that “American’s don’t want” if it actually had to get paid market rate. 

So agriculture, lawn care, meatpacking, whatever - it’s a crappy job because these companies can pay cheap labor and / or care less about worker safety. Full stop.

As for our current immigration? It’s broken and a bad system. Fix that.  Border wall? Troops? Terrible ideas. Let’s not be assholes about people who want to come here and be awesome. Let them.  We want them.  It makes us more awesome.


To build on what you're saying, @Papa bear,  I agree we need to
1) enforce worker protections and fair wages
2) fix the broken immigration system
and also what others have said here, we need to
3) ensure safe borders and keep "bad guys" out.

But to go a step further, these needs are not necessarily incompatible. The better we deal with need #2, that is the faster and more efficiently immigrants can be processed and allowed to enter legally, and the less we punish immigrants for following the law (i.e. entering at legal ports of entry; reporting for court dates or checkins without arresting and detaining them),  the better we can take care of needs #1 and #3. 

If harmless people wanting to enter the U.S. for work or for asylum can get through the border with a reasonable wait time (or better yet, can remotely fill out most of their application from their home country, so they have an idea of their chances before they make the trek) it would be easier to detect the "bad hombres" because they would be the ones trying to cross illegally. Legal immigrants will be easier to monitor.

And if more immigrants have work visas, then they would be able to stand up for themselves if employers want to cheat them of living wages or safe working conditions.  Also, maybe we could require that employers give preference to citizen employees for certain jobs. 

The fear is that with an easier legal entry, what if half of the population south of the border tries to enter the US and overwhelm our labor market?  Is there a way to phase it in?  I think that in the end, if there is less of an obstacle to crossing and recrossing our border legally, we may find more workers who live and earn here, and send money back home where the cost of living is cheaper, as they did before the borders were hardened.  There may be ways to incentivize this. I am sure that the consequences of a having a country dependent on remittances (like the Phillipines) are mixed positive and negative, but a thoughtful policy would encourage both worker visas to the US and investment in industries in countries that are a major source of immigrants such as Honduras and Guatemala. 

Certainly where I live in the NY metro area, there are many many immigrants from these areas who are a net plus.  Hard working and decent people whose kids play with my kids.  Natural successors to the Irish, Polish, and Italian immigrants who used to live in this area and who are now their employers in the building, landscaping, and restaurant trades.  The American citizens whom I know who are unemployed, are looking for white collar jobs, and also have health issues that make finding a job difficult. They aren't in competition with the recent immigrants.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 01:29:48 PM by Poundwise »

JLee

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2018, 01:50:10 PM »
Yeah, I agree it seems fishy that all these people really are in "imminent danger."

And it shouldn't be Americans' responsibility to pay for these people within our own borders.  We send a ton of my tax dollars to other countries.  They need to protect their own citizens.

Quote
My ideal policy:
* Anyone without a felony conviction on their record in their home country can cross the border, find a home to live in, seek employment if they wish.

Definitely not.   We need to restrict immigration until we can improve border security and deport most of the current illegals.

Many terrorists and gang bangers don't have felony records, but don't think for a second that they are here for peaceful reasons .

Quote
* It's fair. I didn't choose to be an American citizen. It was an accident of birth. I was born on the right side of an imaginary line in the sand, and that has been a very major factor in my prosperity.

I disagree.  There's nothing fair about it.  Being an American citizen isn't an accident and doesn't have anything to do with an "imaginary" line.  We're talking about the American border and homeland here - it's not imagined.  WTF?  I do want to add that birthplace citizenship shouldn't exist.  It's the law now in this country, and it's just contributed to the illegal problem because illegals can sneak across the border and deliver a baby at our expense, and then the kid is consider an American.  It gives illegals more incentive to sneak in.  Unless at least one parent is an American, the kid shouldn't be a citizen.  Many other countries don't have such absurd laws.  That didn't get thought through many years ago, and we are paying for it now.  This is something that Trump understands, but he doen't have the power to do anything about it, so the problem will just get worse.

You obviously have some very liberal thinking, so I'm sure we will never agree on this nor change each other's minds.  This is something I've followed and have been discussing for years.  If anything, I've toughened my stance that more I've learned about it.

So what Native American tribe are you from?

slackmax

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2018, 12:00:04 PM »
This looks a lot like the 'refugee' crisis in Europe. The global elite decides that certain countries need a massive influx of migrants and arrange for it to happen. Doesn't matter what the citizens of the receiving countries want. All you need is a couple billionaire globalists and their NGO's (an NGO is a 'non-governmental organization' with it's own sources of funding and its own agenda and purpose)  and presto, you've got 1 million non-German speaking refugees in Germany who are sucking up welfare.  The German citizens are left wondering what happened and, more importantly, why.  Who wins? Not the German citizens,  so it must be someone else. That's why the anti-globalist populists in Europe (both left and right, interestingly) are winning more seats in their governing bodies. 

I don't know who the global elite are who are funding the migrant caravans through Mexico, and what their goals are, but someone is funding them and directing them.     
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 12:01:44 PM by slackmax »

use2betrix

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #60 on: December 30, 2018, 02:56:37 AM »
According to this article, they are apprehending just over 50k immigrants/mo right now attempting to enter the country illegally.

https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/12/06/politics/immigrants-undocumented-family-apprehension-us-mexico-border/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

Another article I read (CNN) that I now canít find had quoted 189k apprehensions between November and December.

Even by the article I posted, thatís 600k people per year. Or over a decade thatís an extra 6 million people. Where would we have the infrastructure to just naturally integrate another 600k people per year?

I have nothing against immigrants. Iíve spent many many years working construction in Texas, and many immigrants will work circles around the Americans, with a great attitude and smile on the face. Just not sure how weíd make those kind of numbers work. Prior to researching, I expected maybe 1/10 that many..


former player

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #61 on: December 30, 2018, 01:01:00 PM »
According to this article, they are apprehending just over 50k immigrants/mo right now attempting to enter the country illegally.

https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/12/06/politics/immigrants-undocumented-family-apprehension-us-mexico-border/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

Another article I read (CNN) that I now canít find had quoted 189k apprehensions between November and December.

Even by the article I posted, thatís 600k people per year. Or over a decade thatís an extra 6 million people. Where would we have the infrastructure to just naturally integrate another 600k people per year?

I have nothing against immigrants. Iíve spent many many years working construction in Texas, and many immigrants will work circles around the Americans, with a great attitude and smile on the face. Just not sure how weíd make those kind of numbers work. Prior to researching, I expected maybe 1/10 that many..

There's about four million 18 year old (or 22 year old) Americans leaving school or college each year.  Do you worry about the infrastructure to integrate them?  The jobs and houses they need?  Probably not, because the current USA birth rate is below the population replacement rate.  Without immigrants, the USA will decline in population and economic development.

use2betrix

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #62 on: December 30, 2018, 02:09:12 PM »
According to this article, they are apprehending just over 50k immigrants/mo right now attempting to enter the country illegally.

https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/12/06/politics/immigrants-undocumented-family-apprehension-us-mexico-border/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

Another article I read (CNN) that I now canít find had quoted 189k apprehensions between November and December.

Even by the article I posted, thatís 600k people per year. Or over a decade thatís an extra 6 million people. Where would we have the infrastructure to just naturally integrate another 600k people per year?

I have nothing against immigrants. Iíve spent many many years working construction in Texas, and many immigrants will work circles around the Americans, with a great attitude and smile on the face. Just not sure how weíd make those kind of numbers work. Prior to researching, I expected maybe 1/10 that many..

There's about four million 18 year old (or 22 year old) Americans leaving school or college each year.  Do you worry about the infrastructure to integrate them?  The jobs and houses they need?  Probably not, because the current USA birth rate is below the population replacement rate.  Without immigrants, the USA will decline in population and economic development.

Interesting statistic. You didnít mention that thereís also around 3.5 million people retiring each year, so that balances out perfect.

Youíre also comparing finding jobs for high school and college graduates, to people that speak little to no english and Iíd bet are probably lower than the US high school graduate education. What jobs are being filled for people that speak little to no English? Do we have an extra 600k of these jobs each year?

Edit* https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Mexico
ďWhile over 90% of children in Mexico attend primary school, only 62% attend secondary school ("secundaria"). Only 45% finish high school ("preparatoria").Ē


Iím not going to go into the details, but for the world as a whole, declining populations are a good thing. Overpopulation is going to wreak havoc on our planet in the coming decades and centuries.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 03:50:07 PM by use2betrix »

RetiredAt63

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #63 on: December 30, 2018, 04:54:22 PM »
Point of information - are those new people each time or the same ones over and over?  Because it does make a difference.  Just like an airport having X passengers pass through each month does not mean X people passed through, since most of those would be repeats.

use2betrix

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #64 on: December 30, 2018, 08:28:23 PM »
Point of information - are those new people each time or the same ones over and over?  Because it does make a difference.  Just like an airport having X passengers pass through each month does not mean X people passed through, since most of those would be repeats.

Thatís a great question. From what Iíve read there does seem to be a lot of repeats.

I was mostly surprised at the numbers. I wish we could trade the hardworking immigrants for some of our worthless leaching Americans lol.

My main question is: what is the cutoff number for immigration? Can we happily support 50,000 a year? 500,000? 5,000,000?

I just donít see this discussed much but I think it makes a huge difference for both sides of the discussion. My opinion for us accepting 50,000 people per year is a bit different than 5,000,000.

former player

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #65 on: December 31, 2018, 02:16:50 AM »
Youíre also comparing finding jobs for high school and college graduates, to people that speak little to no english and Iíd bet are probably lower than the US high school graduate education. What jobs are being filled for people that speak little to no English? Do we have an extra 600k of these jobs each year?

Edit* https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Mexico
ďWhile over 90% of children in Mexico attend primary school, only 62% attend secondary school ("secundaria"). Only 45% finish high school ("preparatoria").Ē

People don't lose the capacity to learn as soon as they leave school, though.  Given the opportunity, it's quite likely that immigrants with the personal abilities to get themselves out of usually dire situations and into the USA will learn what they need to in order to make a success of the move for themselves and their children.


Iím not going to go into the details, but for the world as a whole, declining populations are a good thing. Overpopulation is going to wreak havoc on our planet in the coming decades and centuries.

Well yes, but I'm not sure how that feeds into border issues.  Except of course that climate change is going to massively increase both internal and international migration pressures over the next few decades.  In twenty years' time the thought of immigration at today's low levels will look like just part of the historical record.

use2betrix

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #66 on: December 31, 2018, 11:55:19 AM »
Youíre also comparing finding jobs for high school and college graduates, to people that speak little to no english and Iíd bet are probably lower than the US high school graduate education. What jobs are being filled for people that speak little to no English? Do we have an extra 600k of these jobs each year?

Edit* https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Mexico
ďWhile over 90% of children in Mexico attend primary school, only 62% attend secondary school ("secundaria"). Only 45% finish high school ("preparatoria").Ē

People don't lose the capacity to learn as soon as they leave school, though.  Given the opportunity, it's quite likely that immigrants with the personal abilities to get themselves out of usually dire situations and into the USA will learn what they need to in order to make a success of the move for themselves and their children.


Iím not going to go into the details, but for the world as a whole, declining populations are a good thing. Overpopulation is going to wreak havoc on our planet in the coming decades and centuries.

Well yes, but I'm not sure how that feeds into border issues.  Except of course that climate change is going to massively increase both internal and international migration pressures over the next few decades.  In twenty years' time the thought of immigration at today's low levels will look like just part of the historical record.

They are absolutely capable of still learning. In the meantime, these people are limited to positions that likely do not require a person to speak English or have a high school diploma.

Itíd be a lot different if we were getting blends of somewhat educated personnel in different careers that spoke English. That isnít the case. We arenít getting loads of college or high school educated English speaking people. They will be filling a very certain section of the work force. These arenít 500k people being spread over our nations different industries.

Iím just really seeing little to no suggestions on any actual details of how we can accommodate these people, or what changes to our existing laws would prevent so many people trying to enter our country illegally while circumventing our programs we do have in place.

former player

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #67 on: December 31, 2018, 12:34:09 PM »
Youíre also comparing finding jobs for high school and college graduates, to people that speak little to no english and Iíd bet are probably lower than the US high school graduate education. What jobs are being filled for people that speak little to no English? Do we have an extra 600k of these jobs each year?

Edit* https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Mexico
ďWhile over 90% of children in Mexico attend primary school, only 62% attend secondary school ("secundaria"). Only 45% finish high school ("preparatoria").Ē

People don't lose the capacity to learn as soon as they leave school, though.  Given the opportunity, it's quite likely that immigrants with the personal abilities to get themselves out of usually dire situations and into the USA will learn what they need to in order to make a success of the move for themselves and their children.


Iím not going to go into the details, but for the world as a whole, declining populations are a good thing. Overpopulation is going to wreak havoc on our planet in the coming decades and centuries.

Well yes, but I'm not sure how that feeds into border issues.  Except of course that climate change is going to massively increase both internal and international migration pressures over the next few decades.  In twenty years' time the thought of immigration at today's low levels will look like just part of the historical record.

They are absolutely capable of still learning. In the meantime, these people are limited to positions that likely do not require a person to speak English or have a high school diploma.

Itíd be a lot different if we were getting blends of somewhat educated personnel in different careers that spoke English. That isnít the case. We arenít getting loads of college or high school educated English speaking people. They will be filling a very certain section of the work force. These arenít 500k people being spread over our nations different industries.

Iím just really seeing little to no suggestions on any actual details of how we can accommodate these people, or what changes to our existing laws would prevent so many people trying to enter our country illegally while circumventing our programs we do have in place.

They will find ways to accommodate themselves, through family and community networks, as immigrants (legal and illegal) have always done.

And, honestly?  You will never stop everyone who wants to come and isn't given a legal way to do it.  You can stop some of them wanting to come by promoting better security and opportunities in their own countries.  You can do something to stop Americans from paying so much money to drug producers and undermining security and democracy in central America when they do so.  You can create a work permit system that gives people hope that it might at some point be their turn to come and work legally for a little while and make some money to take back home, so that they won't jeopardise that chance by trying to get in illegally.   But without a southern Berlin Wall with mines and guards with machine guns every 100 metres and a ban on ships and aeroplanes visiting the USA you will never stop everyone.

katsiki

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #68 on: December 31, 2018, 01:56:03 PM »
Point of information - are those new people each time or the same ones over and over?  Because it does make a difference.  Just like an airport having X passengers pass through each month does not mean X people passed through, since most of those would be repeats.

Thatís a great question. From what Iíve read there does seem to be a lot of repeats.

I was mostly surprised at the numbers. I wish we could trade the hardworking immigrants for some of our worthless leaching Americans lol.

My main question is: what is the cutoff number for immigration? Can we happily support 50,000 a year? 500,000? 5,000,000?

I just donít see this discussed much but I think it makes a huge difference for both sides of the discussion. My opinion for us accepting 50,000 people per year is a bit different than 5,000,000.

Great points and information, @use2betrix   Thanks for bringing this up.  There is so much misinformation on all sides of this issue that it is hard to get at real facts and figures unfortunately.