Author Topic: Conflict at the border  (Read 3631 times)

Poundwise

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Conflict at the border
« on: November 26, 2018, 05:54:36 AM »
I'm posting here because my opinions on immigration evolved directly through research I did as a result of discussions on these forums. 

I am disgusted at the harmful and wholly manufactured conflict at the San Diego border, and at opinions I've heard from acquaintances.  Our government had MONTHS to plan for the arrival of the caravan.  For the cost of sending 5900 troops, they could have sent an individual caseworker to meet each migrant, take information, give a case number, and start researching eligibility. What happened was absolutely a manufactured conflict. 

Just Joe

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2018, 07:16:42 AM »
I registered! Thanks.

Very much what you said about the border conflicts.

Kris

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2018, 07:47:42 AM »
It's a disgusting display. Entirely engineered to keep Trump's base in a froth.

This is a great shame on our country.


thd7t

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2018, 09:29:51 AM »
It's a disgusting display. Entirely engineered to keep Trump's base in a froth.

This is a great shame on our country.
Initially it was engineered for that purpose, but it's being escalated to make news reports say that "the situation is escalating", which is misreporting.  It would be more appropriate to say "The Trump Administration is escalating the border situation."

The alarming thing about this is that it follows the trend of Trump trying to craft a situation to fit his statements.  This will give cover to those who support his over reaches.

Kris

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2018, 09:31:40 AM »
It's a disgusting display. Entirely engineered to keep Trump's base in a froth.

This is a great shame on our country.
Initially it was engineered for that purpose, but it's being escalated to make news reports say that "the situation is escalating", which is misreporting.  It would be more appropriate to say "The Trump Administration is escalating the border situation."

The alarming thing about this is that it follows the trend of Trump trying to craft a situation to fit his statements.  This will give cover to those who support his over reaches.

Yes, indeed. I am noticing that a lot this morning.

vern

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2018, 08:08:40 PM »

former player

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2018, 04:33:02 AM »
I'm posting here because my opinions on immigration evolved directly through research I did as a result of discussions on these forums. 

I am disgusted at the harmful and wholly manufactured conflict at the San Diego border, and at opinions I've heard from acquaintances.  Our government had MONTHS to plan for the arrival of the caravan.  For the cost of sending 5900 troops, they could have sent an individual caseworker to meet each migrant, take information, give a case number, and start researching eligibility. What happened was absolutely a manufactured conflict.


This.  It is absolutely a deliberately engineered display of administrative inadequacy and incompetence in order to provoke a predictable response from desperate people.  Shameful.

DreamFIRE

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2018, 10:03:06 PM »

I definitely support Trump on this one.  Don't let these people into the country.

former player

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2018, 02:09:45 AM »

I definitely support Trump on this one.  Don't let these people into the country.

Of course a country should only let in the people it wants to.  (Which in any civilised nation includes letting in genuine refugees who have no other recourse.)  But there are better ways to do it than with the army, with tear gas and with billions on a border wall.

A few millions on providing enough crossing points, border staff and immigration judges to process everyone efficiently as they arrive would avoid all the current chaos, violence and misery. A few millions more on internal enforcement against employers and landlords would naturally decrease the numbers of illegal immigrants already in place. And a system of temporary work permits for the jobs that no USA citizens want to do (primarily agricultural and food industry) would keep the economy buzzing while also providing a legal way for workers to send funds back to their home countries, improving the economies there so that fewer people felt the need to come to the USA.

Trump does none of that.  He hasn't even built his stupid wall.  All he's done is whip up fears, hold rallies and encourage people to chant "Build the Wall".

Poundwise

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2018, 09:10:14 AM »

I definitely support Trump on this one.  Don't let these people into the country.

Why?

katsiki

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2018, 09:34:44 AM »

I definitely support Trump on this one.  Don't let these people into the country.

Why?

Should we just have open borders?  Why would we allow these folks in but not others who try to cross everyday?

Kris

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2018, 09:38:04 AM »

I definitely support Trump on this one.  Don't let these people into the country.

Why?

Should we just have open borders?  Why would we allow these folks in but not others who try to cross everyday?

Lol. Why is it you guys always jump right to the "open borders" straw man?

Oh, yeah. I know why.

katsiki

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2018, 09:40:01 AM »
Thanks for lumping me in with various others...

It was a serious question.

What makes this group of people "eligible" but not the random guy/girl/child trying 10 minutes later?

Dabnasty

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2018, 09:47:12 AM »

I definitely support Trump on this one.  Don't let these people into the country.

Why?

If DreamFIRE is going to respond, I would suggest this is a two-part question.

Why do you support Trump's actions specifically?

Why do you think we should not let these people into the country?

Assuming "these people" refers to those who made a dash for the border then the second part seems obvious. Of course we shouldn't let them in with priority over others* but I don't think anyone is arguing for that. If by "these people" you mean something else, I would be interested in elaboration?

*or did you mean make them ineligible for future entry?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 09:50:33 AM by Dabnasty »

Kris

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2018, 09:47:54 AM »
Thanks for lumping me in with various others...

It was a serious question.

What makes this group of people "eligible" but not the random guy/girl/child trying 10 minutes later?




Crease

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2018, 09:50:14 AM »
Without responding directly to anyone, I think most of the displeasure towards the administration here stems from its decision to send soldiers to the border rather than investing that same money in infrastructure that would improve the asylum process. And I agree. 

katsiki

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2018, 10:01:12 AM »
Thanks Kris.

For anyone who knows...  is it true that an asylum seeker must take refuge in the first "safe" country granting asylum?

I don't agree with many things this president does.  I haven't been following this issue closely either.  I like reading threads like this as I learn new things.  I appreciate the responses from folks who are willing to explain the issue or their point of view.

JLee

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2018, 10:04:16 AM »
Thanks Kris.

For anyone who knows...  is it true that an asylum seeker must take refuge in the first "safe" country granting asylum?

I don't agree with many things this president does.  I haven't been following this issue closely either.  I like reading threads like this as I learn new things.  I appreciate the responses from folks who are willing to explain the issue or their point of view.

https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/questions-and-answers-asylum-eligibility-and-applications

Crease

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2018, 10:23:45 AM »
Thanks Kris.

For anyone who knows...  is it true that an asylum seeker must take refuge in the first "safe" country granting asylum?

I don't agree with many things this president does.  I haven't been following this issue closely either.  I like reading threads like this as I learn new things.  I appreciate the responses from folks who are willing to explain the issue or their point of view.

As I understand it, the EU and US-Canada have safe third country agreements. US-Mexico does not, and it would have to be negotiated between the countries. It cannot be unilaterally imposed by one country on asylum seekers entering through the third country.

Poundwise

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2018, 10:53:37 AM »

I definitely support Trump on this one.  Don't let these people into the country.

Why?

Should we just have open borders?  Why would we allow these folks in but not others who try to cross everyday?

Should we just have open borders? 
No, but our mechanism for processing and vetting asylum seekers and immigrants is not functional.  Both parties are to blame, but there was a line-- cruelty to children-- which previous administrations made attempts to avoid, that has been disregarded by the Trump administration.  To be honest, I think that the immigrant work visas suggested by the GWB administration would have been a better solution, although the implementation should have been tweaked to ensure that citizens had first shots at jobs and that minimum wages and workplace safety continued to be enforced.

The following graphic is a few years old, but the situation has gotten much worse since. I have read that, for instance,  that there's now a 150 year wait for Indian immigrants with advanced degrees.
https://reason.org/wp-content/uploads/files/a87d1550853898a9b306ef458f116079.pdf

Why would we allow these folks in but not others who try to cross everyday? Who said we should do that? Nobody here. The point is that we should have had a system in place to meet and process all the asylum seekers within a reasonable time frame and to let them know they had a place in line. 

It was a tremendous failure to not anticipate the surge in applicants with the arrival of the caravan. When you're teargassing kids, either your system has failed, or it worked as you planned because you're evil.

"The waiting list for asylum claims had 3,000 names on it before the caravan arrived, and the San Ysidro center is processing fewer than 100 claims a day." https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/whats-happening-with-asylum-seekers-at-the-border

This isn't a perfect analogy, but if there were a big family concert with 6000 people expected, insufficient staffing at the box office, a huge line, and some people jumped the fence, would you teargas the whole crowd? Or would you arrest the people attempting to jump the fence? And who would be to blame... the organizers of the concert or the crowds spilling around the entrance to the venue?

And P.S., there were only a few hundred people in the march, most of whom were not causing trouble.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 10:57:39 AM by Poundwise »

TrudgingAlong

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2018, 05:16:49 PM »
Iím gonna jump in here and add: active duty military are prevented from doing police work in the US. We arenít at war with Mexico, and these arenít combatants wanting to cross and apply for asylum. So, what are the unlucky troops sent there doing? Camping in mud, puttting up barbed wire, all through the holidays FOR NO GOOD REASON. Military members arenít allowed to get political so itís why you arenít seeing them publicly complain, but Iím only a family member so I can. Why the HELL are so many people totally okay with this? Please stop this ďsupport the troopsĒ shit. Itís vapid and empty when you support this kind of stupid use of the military.

Kris

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2018, 05:45:33 PM »
Iím gonna jump in here and add: active duty military are prevented from doing police work in the US. We arenít at war with Mexico, and these arenít combatants wanting to cross and apply for asylum. So, what are the unlucky troops sent there doing? Camping in mud, puttting up barbed wire, all through the holidays FOR NO GOOD REASON. Military members arenít allowed to get political so itís why you arenít seeing them publicly complain, but Iím only a family member so I can. Why the HELL are so many people totally okay with this? Please stop this ďsupport the troopsĒ shit. Itís vapid and empty when you support this kind of stupid use of the military.

This. 1000 times this.

It infuriates me that most of the "SEND THE TROOPS TO THE BORDER, DAMN RIGHT, TRUMP'S PROTECTING US!!!" are also the ones who are convinced THEY have a monopoly on caring about/supporting the troops. I have many words about this, none of them nice or kind.

Frankly, I feel similarly about any efforts to allow/force police officers to check immigration status of people, making them into de facto ICE officers. FUCKING infuriating.


DreamFIRE

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2018, 06:19:02 PM »
I'm ex-military, and I support the troops.

TrudgingAlong

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2018, 08:20:45 PM »
I'm ex-military, and I support the troops.

Okay? Bravo? See, it doesnít mean anything to just say that.

Just Joe

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2018, 08:11:36 AM »
I get hte feeling that Trump wanted troops on the border, doesn't understand that they are no allowed to do peacetime police work so just as the migrants arrived at the border they were sent home to prevent them from truly being involved and the Pentagon can chalk it all up as "training maneuvers". Trump still gets to tell his ra-ra crowds that he sent the troops to the border but he won't mention that the troops accomplished NOTHING and it all happened for the low, low price of $220M give to take a few millions.

I can't believe (yes I can actually) the fiscally conservative GOP led congress isn't having a melt down over the expense. There are SO many ways that $220M could be spent more constructively than useless troop movements but then Congress is always okay with spending ridiculous amount of money on the American military.

GuitarStv

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2018, 08:13:23 AM »
I'm ex-military, and I support the troops.

All of the troops?

bacchi

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2018, 08:23:51 AM »
I'm ex-military, and I support the troops.

Hey, so do I! I support them not having to spend a major holiday in a just-put-together camp (or an old Walmart) for the purposes of propaganda and to protect us from an invading caravan of...the desperately poor who want to earn a living.

Fuck yeah I support the troops.

ketchup

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2018, 09:04:14 AM »

Poundwise

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2018, 07:50:56 PM »
A 7 year old girl died last week of dehydration and shock eight hours after being taken into custody by Customs and Border Patrol.
https://thehill.com/homenews/news/421343-7-year-old-migrant-dies-of-dehydration-shock-after-being-taken-into-border

Now this may or may not be the fault of CBP (though being in their custody, they may legally be responsible.)
But how can we trust them?  Look at how Border Patrol has acted (across administrations)!
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jan/17/us-border-patrol-sabotage-aid-migrants-mexico-arizona
Here's the executive summary of the No More Deaths report: http://nomoredeaths.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/ExecSummFinal.pdf


There has got to be a better way. God rest this little child's soul.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 07:52:57 PM by Poundwise »

GuitarStv

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2018, 06:45:55 AM »
Zach's words still seem appropriate today unfortunately.

Those who died are justified, for wearing the badge, they're the chosen whites
You justify those that died by wearing the badge, they're the chosen whites

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWXazVhlyxQ

vern

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2018, 02:59:18 PM »
Now the migrants are demanding $50,000 each for their troubles.  What could possibly go wrong?

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/border-baja-california/sd-me-migrant-demands-12122018-story.html

Poundwise

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2018, 03:10:28 PM »
Now the migrants are demanding $50,000 each for their troubles.  What could possibly go wrong?

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/border-baja-california/sd-me-migrant-demands-12122018-story.html

If I belonged to the second group of migrants (Castillo), I'd be angry to be lumped in with the first group (Ulloa) with their ridiculous and off-putting demand for money.

DreamFIRE

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2018, 08:39:38 PM »
Now the migrants are demanding $50,000 each for their troubles.  What could possibly go wrong?

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/border-baja-california/sd-me-migrant-demands-12122018-story.html

Geesh, the craziness of these people.  They just want to take.  We have enough takers without adding to that burden.  We should only let in the best of the best who will a contribute more than they suck out of society.  And people need to go to the back of the line of everyone else who is already trying to get into country.


Poundwise

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2018, 09:33:41 PM »
A taker already at seven years old.

JLee

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2018, 02:08:08 PM »
Now the migrants are demanding $50,000 each for their troubles.  What could possibly go wrong?

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/border-baja-california/sd-me-migrant-demands-12122018-story.html

I assume by "the migrants" you mean 1.6% of them?

soccerluvof4

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2018, 03:57:23 PM »
Now the migrants are demanding $50,000 each for their troubles.  What could possibly go wrong?

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/border-baja-california/sd-me-migrant-demands-12122018-story.html

Geesh, the craziness of these people.  They just want to take.  We have enough takers without adding to that burden.  We should only let in the best of the best who will a contribute more than they suck out of society.  And people need to go to the back of the line of everyone else who is already trying to get into country.





True Dat!  I was stationed in San Diego back in the early 80's and the border was just as insane back then.  People Lined up and slept along the wall just waiting to rush over every night. Heck we weren't even aloud to where are uniforms if we crossed the border in worry of being killed. Nothing has changed since then and its not just one administration its been all of them.  I don't claim to know the answer but I sure don't want anyone coming in that isn't processed properly no matter how long it takes. Open boarders YES to those that follow the process but I'll be the first to agree our process needs definitely to be improved since most of the time where just regathering and taking back and forth the same people.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2018, 09:07:15 AM »
And people need to go to the back of the line of everyone else who is already trying to get into country.

People keep talking about how the immigrants should just "get in line" and "wait their turn." Okay. How does one enter this line? Where do they go? What forms do they fill out? How long is the wait after they get in line?

The truth is there is no line. There is no law stating anyone is eligible to put their name down as an interested immigrant, and each year we'll call up the next X thousand people in line and grant them legal entry and work permits. It simply doesn't work that way. Short of earning a doctorate, becoming a world class baseball player, having US citizen relatives appear out of thin air, or getting an asylum claim granted, there is not really any legal path to immigration for most folks in Latin America. This notion that people applying for asylum are somehow cutting ahead of the "line waiters" does not seem to be based in any set of facts I have seen.

If you want to say that these people should never be allowed to immigrate, okay. Say that. Don't hide behind some fiction of a line that doesn't exist.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2018, 09:39:20 AM »
For more information about the line (or lack thereof), please see this expert post from an immigration attorney.

soccerluvof4

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2018, 04:16:27 AM »
And people need to go to the back of the line of everyone else who is already trying to get into country.

People keep talking about how the immigrants should just "get in line" and "wait their turn." Okay. How does one enter this line? Where do they go? What forms do they fill out? How long is the wait after they get in line?

The truth is there is no line. There is no law stating anyone is eligible to put their name down as an interested immigrant, and each year we'll call up the next X thousand people in line and grant them legal entry and work permits. It simply doesn't work that way. Short of earning a doctorate, becoming a world class baseball player, having US citizen relatives appear out of thin air, or getting an asylum claim granted, there is not really any legal path to immigration for most folks in Latin America. This notion that people applying for asylum are somehow cutting ahead of the "line waiters" does not seem to be based in any set of facts I have seen.

If you want to say that these people should never be allowed to immigrate, okay. Say that. Don't hide behind some fiction of a line that doesn't exist.



And as I was trying to say but you did so much better is really the basis to this entire problem.

TrudgingAlong

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2018, 10:16:56 AM »
Ya know, there probably wouldnít be so much chaos at the border if we HAD a line. And more guest worker visas for industries who rely on immigrant labor because Americans WONíT WORK THERE (meatpackers, field work, landscaping, etc). So instead of wasting money on a wall that wonít do what everyone wants it to, how about we put that energy into reforming immigration?

Or just keep screaming about a wall because that feels easy....sigh.

DreamFIRE

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2018, 11:21:36 AM »
And people need to go to the back of the line of everyone else who is already trying to get into country.

The truth is there is no line.


It doesn't mean a literal line that people are standing in.  Geesh.

Just as a quick example, I've read, "19 years to clear the existing backlog of more than 4 million individuals who have already demonstrated their visa eligibility but are waiting for their priority date to become current".  No one else should be let in until everyone else clears through the system and has time to assimilate.

Quote
If you want to say that these people should never be allowed to immigrate, okay. Say that.

I have said before, maybe in this thread, that we shouldn't let anyone in that isn't likely to be a net contributor.  I've said it.  And for those that are likely to be net contributors, they should have to wait for years before they are allowed in, not invade our country by sneaking across the border and "taking."

DreamFIRE

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2018, 11:25:44 AM »
Ya know, there probably wouldnít be so much chaos at the border if we HAD a line. And more guest worker visas for industries who rely on immigrant labor because Americans WONíT WORK THERE (meatpackers, field work, landscaping, etc). So instead of wasting money on a wall that wonít do what everyone wants it to, how about we put that energy into reforming immigration?

Or just keep screaming about a wall because that feels easy....sigh.

Yeah, I also always laugh about those comments that say Americans won't work those jobs, yet when those places are raided and people deported, suddenly you have long lines of Americans ready to take those jobs.  The illegals just bring down the wages for Americans while taking from the system, just like the Heritage study shows.  They don't pay enough in taxes to pay for themselves.

Of course, the wall is a necessary piece of the pie which is long over due, but that doesn't mean we stop all of the other enforcement mechanisms including workplace citizenship verification and deporting anyone not here legally.

DreamFIRE

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2018, 11:30:38 AM »
Now the migrants are demanding $50,000 each for their troubles.  What could possibly go wrong?

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/border-baja-california/sd-me-migrant-demands-12122018-story.html

Geesh, the craziness of these people.  They just want to take.  We have enough takers without adding to that burden.  We should only let in the best of the best who will a contribute more than they suck out of society.  And people need to go to the back of the line of everyone else who is already trying to get into country.

True Dat!  I was stationed in San Diego back in the early 80's and the border was just as insane back then.  People Lined up and slept along the wall just waiting to rush over every night. Heck we weren't even aloud to where are uniforms if we crossed the border in worry of being killed. Nothing has changed since then and its not just one administration its been all of them.  I don't claim to know the answer but I sure don't want anyone coming in that isn't processed properly no matter how long it takes. Open boarders YES to those that follow the process but I'll be the first to agree our process needs definitely to be improved since most of the time where just regathering and taking back and forth the same people.

Yeah, it's too easy for these people to just come across the border.  Enforcement definitely needs stepped up.  A effective wall would help a lot, but that doesn't solve everything.  No open borders - only let in people that would be net contributors after a long wait while deporting the illegals.

katsiki

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2018, 01:11:54 PM »
People keep talking about how the immigrants should just "get in line" and "wait their turn." Okay. How does one enter this line? Where do they go? What forms do they fill out? How long is the wait after they get in line?

From experience of extended family (anecdotal, I realize), it seems to take 7-10 years on average.  That is from Europe.  I think I read that other countries can take longer for various reasons.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2018, 01:47:11 PM »
And people need to go to the back of the line of everyone else who is already trying to get into country.

The truth is there is no line.


It doesn't mean a literal line that people are standing in.  Geesh.

Just as a quick example, I've read, "19 years to clear the existing backlog of more than 4 million individuals who have already demonstrated their visa eligibility but are waiting for their priority date to become current".  No one else should be let in until everyone else clears through the system and has time to assimilate.

A couple things:

1) Yes, there is a very large backlog of people who qualify for visas based on the current law. Being a close family member of an existing citizen or permanent resident is one of the more common ways to qualify for a visa. Again, if you're not related to an American or have some other exceptional quality, you don't qualify for a visa and so there is no line for you to enter.

2) You seem to be saying that asylum seekers should be placed in the same queue as all the other visa applicants, and barred from entering the US until their number is called. The problem with this is that asylum is supposed to be for cases where a person would be in imminent danger if they stay in their home country. As quoted above, a typical procedure is for someone to apply for asylum once they have already crossed the border. I'm not in any position to judge the merits of an asylum claim for any particular person trying to cross the border, but shouldn't we err on the side of letting these people live in the US until their claim can be heard before a judge? The alternative is to send them back to a place where (they claim) they would be in danger. If that claim is meritless, sure, send them back. If it's not, I don't want their blood on my hands by telling them they have to try and stick it out in a dangerous place for the better part of a decade before they're allowed to seek refuge here.

soccerluvof4

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2018, 04:25:07 PM »
And people need to go to the back of the line of everyone else who is already trying to get into country.

The truth is there is no line.


It doesn't mean a literal line that people are standing in.  Geesh.

Just as a quick example, I've read, "19 years to clear the existing backlog of more than 4 million individuals who have already demonstrated their visa eligibility but are waiting for their priority date to become current".  No one else should be let in until everyone else clears through the system and has time to assimilate.

A couple things:

1) Yes, there is a very large backlog of people who qualify for visas based on the current law. Being a close family member of an existing citizen or permanent resident is one of the more common ways to qualify for a visa. Again, if you're not related to an American or have some other exceptional quality, you don't qualify for a visa and so there is no line for you to enter.

2) You seem to be saying that asylum seekers should be placed in the same queue as all the other visa applicants, and barred from entering the US until their number is called. The problem with this is that asylum is supposed to be for cases where a person would be in imminent danger if they stay in their home country. As quoted above, a typical procedure is for someone to apply for asylum once they have already crossed the border. I'm not in any position to judge the merits of an asylum claim for any particular person trying to cross the border, but shouldn't we err on the side of letting these people live in the US until their claim can be heard before a judge? The alternative is to send them back to a place where (they claim) they would be in danger. If that claim is meritless, sure, send them back. If it's not, I don't want their blood on my hands by telling them they have to try and stick it out in a dangerous place for the better part of a decade before they're allowed to seek refuge here.






The problem is the amount of people that cross the border that claim to be in "imminent danger" . What that might mean to you or me necessary is not the same meaning as to the person running for the border. You bring up good points and its so complicated not to mention that its like every country that has people that are trying to come to the USA has different rules. I have friends from Canada that have been very (for lack of better term) productive people to society from Canada that are doing very well but his DW cant legally get a job and they haven't got their citizenship in 10 years despite him having a very specific job , having an attorney and doing as I said very well. But, I know others that have come here from Mexico that have even used other peoples names etc.. and have come over illegal that are now citizens. The hole thing is F'd up and its been for a long time. I really wish some administration would come up with a real plan that makes sense because no one has yet. No matter what there will still be suffering but right now/the last 30-40 years plus its just not working. We ignore it when we need people to fill jobs and say Americans wont work those jobs and when things get slow then we want to throw people out of our country. Like anything else the government runs its getting old.


seattlecyclone

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2018, 05:33:10 PM »
Yeah, I agree it seems fishy that all these people really are in "imminent danger." I've never met them. Maybe they are! The cynic in me says there's a bunch of folks claiming danger because it's their only real shot at starting a better life for themselves in the US, as there's no line for them to get in otherwise.

I agree with you that we need to reform our immigration policy.

My ideal policy:
* Anyone without a felony conviction on their record in their home country can cross the border, find a home to live in, seek employment if they wish.
* After five years of legitimate work history in the US you can get a green card.
* Most parts of the social safety net (Medicaid, food stamps, unemployment benefits, earned income tax credit, section 8 housing vouchers, and more) will be for citizens and green card holders only. You have to earn your own way at the beginning. If you make it work and pay your taxes for a few years you've earned the right to be an American just like in prior generations.

The benefits of this policy are severalfold:
* It's fair. I didn't choose to be an American citizen. It was an accident of birth. I was born on the right side of an imaginary line in the sand, and that has been a very major factor in my prosperity. I don't think that any human being is any less deserving of a chance at the opportunity that America provides just because they were born on the wrong side of a line.
* If anyone legitimately seeking a better life for themselves is allowed to immigrate legally, we can be pretty sure that anyone crossing the border outside of an official crossing is up to no good and should be apprehended and sent back immediately. Think of how much better our border security could be if our guards didn't have to spend most of their time chasing after harmless poor people.
* A preference for mostly open borders can be used as leverage in negotiations for reciprocal benefits with other countries. Right now it's pretty hard even as an American to immigrate to many places. Wouldn't it be nice if we had the right to live and work where we liked? It's hard to argue for getting that benefit for ourselves without also letting people from other countries move into our land.

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2018, 06:33:20 PM »
Yeah, I agree it seems fishy that all these people really are in "imminent danger."

And it shouldn't be Americans' responsibility to pay for these people within our own borders.  We send a ton of my tax dollars to other countries.  They need to protect their own citizens.

Quote
My ideal policy:
* Anyone without a felony conviction on their record in their home country can cross the border, find a home to live in, seek employment if they wish.

Definitely not.   We need to restrict immigration until we can improve border security and deport most of the current illegals.

Many terrorists and gang bangers don't have felony records, but don't think for a second that they are here for peaceful reasons .

Quote
* It's fair. I didn't choose to be an American citizen. It was an accident of birth. I was born on the right side of an imaginary line in the sand, and that has been a very major factor in my prosperity.

I disagree.  There's nothing fair about it.  Being an American citizen isn't an accident and doesn't have anything to do with an "imaginary" line.  We're talking about the American border and homeland here - it's not imagined.  WTF?  I do want to add that birthplace citizenship shouldn't exist.  It's the law now in this country, and it's just contributed to the illegal problem because illegals can sneak across the border and deliver a baby at our expense, and then the kid is consider an American.  It gives illegals more incentive to sneak in.  Unless at least one parent is an American, the kid shouldn't be a citizen.  Many other countries don't have such absurd laws.  That didn't get thought through many years ago, and we are paying for it now.  This is something that Trump understands, but he doen't have the power to do anything about it, so the problem will just get worse.

You obviously have some very liberal thinking, so I'm sure we will never agree on this nor change each other's minds.  This is something I've followed and have been discussing for years.  If anything, I've toughened my stance that more I've learned about it.

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Re: Conflict at the border
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2018, 06:48:11 PM »
I like lively conversation. But can we cut this bullshit about immigrants can take the jobs that legal workers don’t want or refuse to want? That’s bullshit!  There’s not a damn job anywhere that “American’s don’t want” if it actually had to get paid market rate. 

So agriculture, lawn care, meatpacking, whatever - it’s a crappy job because these companies can pay cheap labor and / or care less about worker safety. Full stop.

As for our current immigration? It’s broken and a bad system. Fix that.  Border wall? Troops? Terrible ideas. Let’s not be assholes about people who want to come here and be awesome. Let them.  We want them.  It makes us more awesome.


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