Author Topic: Confederate Flag Discussion  (Read 35493 times)

bwall

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #50 on: August 18, 2015, 01:58:15 PM »
Thank you for pointing out the horrors of slavery. For those interested in reading more about the horrors involved, I would suggest a book on the subject. Here is a link to one for sale on amazon, with very good reviews: http://www.amazon.com/Slave-Ship-Human-History/dp/0143114255/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1439927125&sr=1-1&keywords=slave+ship

Ahh, stock argument #15 why slave owning in the southern US wasn't that bad.

The fact that other people had slaves does not excuse white slave-owners in the south (or the slave trade in NYC).

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Now, would you please kindly provide a better solution as I first requested?

Immediate abolition sounds good.


Clearly you didn't read any review of the book. It outlines the horrors in absolute, not relative terms. I'm not an apologist for slavery in any form. I'm not saying that it wasn't 'so' bad in the USA. It was. Perhaps even worse than elsewhere.

Immediate abolition is what we got, and that led to war.

beltim

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #51 on: August 18, 2015, 02:02:50 PM »
Immediate abolition is what we got, and that led to war.

Your timeline is backwards.  The war started in 1861 after the South seceded, and abolition occurred in those states only in 1863, with the Emancipation Proclamation.

bwall

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #52 on: August 18, 2015, 02:07:09 PM »
uhh, yes.

See how easy that was? I disagreed with you instead of trying to find middle ground. Granted, I COULD try and find middle ground. But since I'm right, why bother?

My point is, it always takes two people to argue as any married person can tell you. And the abolitionists are often portrayed as wonderful people b/c they were 'right'. Heck, their side even won, so of course they were right!

There were other alternatives to war, but NO ABOLITIONIST EVER ESPOUSED ANYTHING HALFWAY ACCEPTABLE TO THE SOUTH. Therefore, they precipitated the war.

THE SOUTH SECEDED IN ORDER TO PRESERVE THE ENSLAVEMENT OF 4.5 MILLION PEOPLE.  They committed treason and declared war in order to prevent any loss of slaves.  I encourage you to read their own words: http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html

I had thought that we could have a discussion about the history of abolition in the US.  But you gave no support for the idea that immediate abolition makes you a war-mongering asshole, even though many, many other countries enacted immediate abolition without being war-mongering assholes (what with those countries not having a war over slavery): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline

I encourage you to read your own link. There it states what I originally said; that in Latin America slavery was outlawed slowly:

1813: In Argentina, the Law of Wombs was passed on 2 February, by the Assembly of Year XIII. The law stated that those born after 31 January 1813 would be granted freedom when contracting matrimony, or on their 16th birthday for women and 20th for men, and upon their manumission would be given land and tools to work it.
1811: The First National Congress of Chile approves a proposal drafted by Manuel de Salas that declares the Freedom of wombs, which sets free the sons of slaves born on Chilean territory, no matter the conditions of the parents; it prohibited the slave trade and recognized as freedmen those who, passing in transit through Chilean territory, stayed there for six months
1820: Mexico formally abolishes slavery with the Plan of Iguala, proposed by Agustín de Iturbide and ratified the following year by him and the Viceroy, Juan O'Donojú.
1829: Last slaves are freed in Mexico.[27]
1831: Brazil adopts the Law of 7 November 1831, declaring the maritime slave trade abolished, prohibiting any form of importation of slaves, and granting freedom to slaves should they be illegally imported into Brazil. In spite of its adoption, the law was seldom enforced prior to 1850, when Brazil, under British pressure, adopted additional legislation to criminalize the importation of slaves.
1885: Brazil passes Sexagenarians Law (Saraiva-Cotegipe Act), freeing all slaves over the age of 60, and creating other measures for the gradual abolition of slavery, such as a Manumissions Fund administered by the State.

I would encourage you to re-considering your understanding of history. It's not nice and neat and black and white as many would like for it to be.

beltim

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2015, 02:10:01 PM »
uhh, yes.

See how easy that was? I disagreed with you instead of trying to find middle ground. Granted, I COULD try and find middle ground. But since I'm right, why bother?

My point is, it always takes two people to argue as any married person can tell you. And the abolitionists are often portrayed as wonderful people b/c they were 'right'. Heck, their side even won, so of course they were right!

There were other alternatives to war, but NO ABOLITIONIST EVER ESPOUSED ANYTHING HALFWAY ACCEPTABLE TO THE SOUTH. Therefore, they precipitated the war.

THE SOUTH SECEDED IN ORDER TO PRESERVE THE ENSLAVEMENT OF 4.5 MILLION PEOPLE.  They committed treason and declared war in order to prevent any loss of slaves.  I encourage you to read their own words: http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html

I had thought that we could have a discussion about the history of abolition in the US.  But you gave no support for the idea that immediate abolition makes you a war-mongering asshole, even though many, many other countries enacted immediate abolition without being war-mongering assholes (what with those countries not having a war over slavery): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline

I encourage you to read your own link. There it states what I originally said; that in Latin America slavery was outlawed slowly:

1813: In Argentina, the Law of Wombs was passed on 2 February, by the Assembly of Year XIII. The law stated that those born after 31 January 1813 would be granted freedom when contracting matrimony, or on their 16th birthday for women and 20th for men, and upon their manumission would be given land and tools to work it.
1811: The First National Congress of Chile approves a proposal drafted by Manuel de Salas that declares the Freedom of wombs, which sets free the sons of slaves born on Chilean territory, no matter the conditions of the parents; it prohibited the slave trade and recognized as freedmen those who, passing in transit through Chilean territory, stayed there for six months
1820: Mexico formally abolishes slavery with the Plan of Iguala, proposed by Agustín de Iturbide and ratified the following year by him and the Viceroy, Juan O'Donojú.
1829: Last slaves are freed in Mexico.[27]
1831: Brazil adopts the Law of 7 November 1831, declaring the maritime slave trade abolished, prohibiting any form of importation of slaves, and granting freedom to slaves should they be illegally imported into Brazil. In spite of its adoption, the law was seldom enforced prior to 1850, when Brazil, under British pressure, adopted additional legislation to criminalize the importation of slaves.
1885: Brazil passes Sexagenarians Law (Saraiva-Cotegipe Act), freeing all slaves over the age of 60, and creating other measures for the gradual abolition of slavery, such as a Manumissions Fund administered by the State.

I would encourage you to re-considering your understanding of history. It's not nice and neat and black and white as many would like for it to be.

I didn't say it was instant everywhere.  I said that calling for immediate abolition does not make one a war-monger, as you claimed.  Showing examples where there was phased or delayed abolition does nothing to prove your point, nor does it do anything to disprove mine.

bwall

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2015, 02:10:21 PM »
Immediate abolition is what we got, and that led to war.

Your timeline is backwards.  The war started in 1861 after the South seceded, and abolition occurred in those states only in 1863, with the Emancipation Proclamation.

Immediate abolition is what everyone was asking for, which was my point. There were no cool heads in the room that wanted anything other than war. I believe that you can understand their position rather well, as you advocate today for immediate abolition even knowing that war was the outcome.

BTW: I'm still waiting for an answer to the question of which you prefer? 1 million dead people or 18 more years of slavery? You shied away from the answer while disparaging me for merely suggesting an alternative to war.

beltim

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2015, 02:16:21 PM »
Immediate abolition is what we got, and that led to war.

Your timeline is backwards.  The war started in 1861 after the South seceded, and abolition occurred in those states only in 1863, with the Emancipation Proclamation.

Immediate abolition is what everyone was asking for, which was my point. There were no cool heads in the room that wanted anything other than war. I believe that you can understand their position rather well, as you advocate today for immediate abolition even knowing that war was the outcome.

BTW: I'm still waiting for an answer to the question of which you prefer? 1 million dead people or 18 more years of slavery? You shied away from the answer while disparaging me for merely suggesting an alternative to war.

It's a false choice.  Who declared war - the South.  Who committed treason - the South.  Who enslaved 4.5 million people - the South.  Who ensured the wartime deaths - the South. 

You want an answer for who didn't want immediate abolition?  Abraham Lincoln.  He was elected on a platform that called for the eventual extinction of slavery by:
1) preventing its expansion into the territories
2) proposing compensated abolition (the strategy used to eliminate slavery in Washington, D.C.)
3) he did not call for a universal end to slavery until the proposed 13th amendment became part of the party platform in 1864

This was the President who was so radical that his election caused the secession of southern states.  Are you really arguing that Lincoln's plan was 1) calling for immediate abolition; and 2) caused a war because of it?  How can you possibly think that?

bwall

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2015, 02:40:22 PM »
Why is it a false choice? We did get 1 million dead in the Civil War. And other countries had 18 years of additional slavery as opposed to immediate abolition. My original question was; where were those who agitate for a peaceful end to slavery? And what alternatives to war did we have as a nation? If we could go back in time and avoid the mayhem of the War, how could that be done? The one possible suggestion I put forth, you rejected immediately, while not providing a better alternative. I would still like to hear your suggestion on how to end slavery in the USA and avoid the Civil War. This is my 4th request.

Ending someone's livelihood from one day to the next would always be completely unacceptable for those who are affected. Especially a lucrative one like growing cotton. I can only assume that an abolitionist would know this as a sudden change and disruption in business would be unacceptable then as today. But, by insisting on it anyway, those agitating for abolition left slave holders with little hope of compromise. All or nothing, as we so often see in American politics, even today. Why not just try and work it out instead? Based on this reasoning, I called that abolitionist a 'war-mongering asshole'.

beltim

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2015, 02:49:22 PM »
Why is it a false choice? We did get 1 million dead in the Civil War. And other countries had 18 years of additional slavery as opposed to immediate abolition. My original question was; where were those who agitate for a peaceful end to slavery? And what alternatives to war did we have as a nation? If we could go back in time and avoid the mayhem of the War, how could that be done? The one possible suggestion I put forth, you rejected immediately, while not providing a better alternative. I would still like to hear your suggestion on how to end slavery in the USA and avoid the Civil War. This is my 4th request

1) You're confusing me with someone else for part of this.
2) You're ignoring everything I said about Lincoln
3) It's a false choice because there was not a significant presence in Congress calling for immediate, uncompensated abolition.  Therefore, using that straw man to justify treason, secession, and declaration of war - is ridiculous.  The choice wasn't between immediate, uncompensated abolition, and war.  The choice was between accepting Lincoln as a President (see above for his, and his party's, political views about slavery and abolition), and secession, treason, and declaring war.  The confederate states chose slavery, war, and death.

bwall

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2015, 03:18:06 PM »
Why is it a false choice? We did get 1 million dead in the Civil War. And other countries had 18 years of additional slavery as opposed to immediate abolition. My original question was; where were those who agitate for a peaceful end to slavery? And what alternatives to war did we have as a nation? If we could go back in time and avoid the mayhem of the War, how could that be done? The one possible suggestion I put forth, you rejected immediately, while not providing a better alternative. I would still like to hear your suggestion on how to end slavery in the USA and avoid the Civil War. This is my 4th request

1) You're confusing me with someone else for part of this.
2) You're ignoring everything I said about Lincoln
3) It's a false choice because there was not a significant presence in Congress calling for immediate, uncompensated abolition.  Therefore, using that straw man to justify treason, secession, and declaration of war - is ridiculous.  The choice wasn't between immediate, uncompensated abolition, and war.  The choice was between accepting Lincoln as a President (see above for his, and his party's, political views about slavery and abolition), and secession, treason, and declaring war. The confederate states chose slavery, war, and death.

DAMMIT! !!  I hate it when I do that !!!!  Sorry about that.

Yes, I did ignore what Lincoln said b/c it wasn't a real way to end slavery.
1) Not expanding doesn't mean ending it.
2)Compensation wouldn't have been possible; there wasn't enough money in the Treasury to do that. Besides, paying market value for an asset isn't the same as receiving the market value of what that asset produces over it's natural life. In other words, Apple may pay each employee $100,000/year, (or whatever) but they are still producing value well above this amount. Just look at their balance sheet and you'll find over $100 billion cash there. This is revenue earned by the employees and accrued to Apple. By definition they are exploited laborers. There is little doubt that Apple values the employees well above what they are paid. So we have another non-starter here.

The abolitionists were the loud irrational voices of their time, much like right-wing talk radio today. They polarized the population and made any sort of compromise impossible quite possibly because they held the moral high ground (and they were 'right!'). Slavery was evil and who wants to compromise with evil?

Now it's my turn to say you are providing a false choice. The South had just voted itself into the Union 75 years earlier. Now, they wanted to vote themselves out but they North said "NO". Their choice wasn't war or slavery, their choice was to leave a club they'd just joined. It was the North that chose aggression, war and death. The North invaded the South for the purpose of imposing its political will on the South, not the other way around.

beltim

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2015, 03:22:10 PM »
Why is it a false choice? We did get 1 million dead in the Civil War. And other countries had 18 years of additional slavery as opposed to immediate abolition. My original question was; where were those who agitate for a peaceful end to slavery? And what alternatives to war did we have as a nation? If we could go back in time and avoid the mayhem of the War, how could that be done? The one possible suggestion I put forth, you rejected immediately, while not providing a better alternative. I would still like to hear your suggestion on how to end slavery in the USA and avoid the Civil War. This is my 4th request

1) You're confusing me with someone else for part of this.
2) You're ignoring everything I said about Lincoln
3) It's a false choice because there was not a significant presence in Congress calling for immediate, uncompensated abolition.  Therefore, using that straw man to justify treason, secession, and declaration of war - is ridiculous.  The choice wasn't between immediate, uncompensated abolition, and war.  The choice was between accepting Lincoln as a President (see above for his, and his party's, political views about slavery and abolition), and secession, treason, and declaring war. The confederate states chose slavery, war, and death.

DAMMIT! !!  I hate it when I do that !!!!  Sorry about that.

Yes, I did ignore what Lincoln said b/c it wasn't a real way to end slavery.
1) Not expanding doesn't mean ending it.
2)Compensation wouldn't have been possible; there wasn't enough money in the Treasury to do that. Besides, paying market value for an asset isn't the same as receiving the market value of what that asset produces over it's natural life. In other words, Apple may pay each employee $100,000/year, (or whatever) but they are still producing value well above this amount. Just look at their balance sheet and you'll find over $100 billion cash there. This is revenue earned by the employees and accrued to Apple. By definition they are exploited laborers. There is little doubt that Apple values the employees well above what they are paid. So we have another non-starter here.

So you've ruled out immediate abolition and compensated abolition as "war-mongering" and a "non-starter," respectively, even though other countries eliminated slavery that way.  What would be a "starter" for eliminating slavery?

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Now it's my turn to say you are providing a false choice. The South had just voted itself into the Union 75 years earlier. Now, they wanted to vote themselves out but they North said "NO". Their choice wasn't war or slavery, their choice was to leave a club they'd just joined. It was the North that chose aggression, war and death. The North invaded the South for the purpose of imposing its political will on the South, not the other way around.

The South invaded Northern territory and declared war on the North, not the other way around.  Yes, the North invaded the South, but only later.

matchewed

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #60 on: August 18, 2015, 03:29:11 PM »
Yeah what's really important here is how we should have found a nicer way to slowly stop enslaving millions of people over hundreds of years.

MoonShadow

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2015, 03:39:20 PM »
I actually agree with the flag=evil concept. (for all flags)  I just think picking on one particular flag over another is as inane as picking Green Bay over Denver.

Really, Bob?  You don't see that someone flying a Canadian flag and someone flying a Nazi flag are intending to communicate very different sets of ideals?  Arguing that the act of flying a flag, any flag, is inherently evil does a disservice to both of those extremes.

Well, in every case, the flag is a nationalistic symbol.  In the particular case of the US flag; there actually are three official flags, only two of which are still flown anywhere.  There is "old glory", of which almost everyone is familiar, then the "admirality flag" which is old glory with a golden border (this flag represents direct control from the US federal government, i.e. over D.C., foreign territories and military bases; but not state territories), and the Civil Flag of the US (which has not flown since before WW1) which is quite different, and once flew over federal agencies & property that was not military in nature, I.E. post offices and such.  Two hundred years ago, it was a fair habit that nations had two flags; one for peace and a "war standard".  So the new US created three, to highlight our (at that time) unique federal-state duopopoly.

MoonShadow

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2015, 03:51:19 PM »
Yeah, symbols matter. By definition, they symbolize something. The Confederate flag was the symbol flown by the Confederate army. Ask any Average Joe what the Confederate Army fought for, the simple answer will likely be, "slavery."*** Seems like it's past time to retire that relic to the insides of museums to preserve the rich history of the South (who lost, by the way).

*** Yes, I realize Confederate flag apologists will object and say the Civil War was about States' rights, defending against "Northern Aggression," economics, sociopolitical forces, and a bunch of other complicated stuff, and that we need to protect that heritage and honor the young men who bravely died and fought for the South even though they never owned a slave, blah blah blah. Yeah, it was mostly about slavery. Honor all that other stuff in your museum.

"States Rights" is just code for "things are shitty around here, just the way we like it.  Don't need no darn federal gubment making changes."  You never hear places like California or Colorado or either of the coasts, or really ANYONE outside of the knuckle-dragging South carping about "States Rights".

"States rights" is also the reason that Colorado gets to legalize pot smoking over existing federal statutes and San Francisco gets to be a illegal immigration 'haven' city.  It also happens to be the legal defense for Northern free states refusing to extradite escaped slaves leading up to the Civil War, despite there existing a law requiring those escaped slaves to be returned.

bwall

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2015, 03:53:29 PM »
Yeah what's really important here is how we should have found a nicer way to slowly stop enslaving millions of people over hundreds of years.

YES! Finally someone gets it!

For example, what if we'd had a provision similar to in Latin America in 1850 instead of the Missouri Compromise. Then we'd have slavery outlawed by 1868 without a war.

Perhaps people's attitude would've adjusted to the point that the Civil Rights Act of 1875 actually would have been enforced.

bwall

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #64 on: August 18, 2015, 04:06:48 PM »

So you've ruled out immediate abolition and compensated abolition as "war-mongering" and a "non-starter," respectively, even though other countries eliminated slavery that way.  What would be a "starter" for eliminating slavery?
Quote
Now it's my turn to say you are providing a false choice. The South had just voted itself into the Union 75 years earlier. Now, they wanted to vote themselves out but they North said "NO". Their choice wasn't war or slavery, their choice was to leave a club they'd just joined. It was the North that chose aggression, war and death. The North invaded the South for the purpose of imposing its political will on the South, not the other way around.
The South invaded Northern territory and declared war on the North, not the other way around.  Yes, the North invaded the South, but only later.

States who had only minimal economic interest in slavery can afford immediate abolition. Granted, Haiti did it, but at great economic cost. Still a basket case 200+ years later.

I suggested another way upthread; a sunset provision that allows everyone time to adjust. Perhaps even not least in the minds of the slave owners/political class so that there would be no resulting no Jim Crow. Other countries enacted this successfully.

Another potential method: pay your slaves so that they can one day buy their own freedom. Sugar plantations did this in the South, until King Cotton came along and wiped out the sugar plantations.

Or how about this: Don't let the slaves marry and have families. Thus, no 'chattel slavery' as no children are born into slavery and one day it dies out. Brazil tried to do this, I believe.

I'm sure that there are other alternatives, I just can't think of them off hand.

And when did the South invade the North? Firing on Ft. Sumter? This may have been an act of war, but an 'invasion' it was not.

MoonShadow

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #65 on: August 18, 2015, 04:09:43 PM »
Good question.  Any know more on how European countries abolished slavery?

This is where it gets tricky. Slavery was never legal in modern Europe. In their colonies, yes. But only in the colonies. Britian, for example, outlawed slavery there in the 1700's (I think)

1833 actually.  What they actually did was to restrict chattel slaver over several decades, starting with a ban on engaging in the slave trade with France and French colonies in 1806; because England was at war with France at the time.  The next step was to restrict the slave trade generally, thus preventing the profits of said slave trade from influencing national politics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_Trade_Act_1807

This thus made it easier to campaign against slavery on moral grounds, as the MP's with economic ties to slavery reduced over decades.  Ultimately resulting in slavery being completely abolished in 1833.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_Abolition_Act_1833

So the entirety of the British Empire abolished slavery over almost 3 decades.

Furthermore, the Slave Trade Act of 1807 was a root cause of the War of 1812 between England & The US.  Mostly because the US was not at war with France, and did not have a trade embargo regarding slaves; so when British Navy ships would stop American & French merchant ships to and from France, they would often arrest US born English speakers under the charge of being British deserters.  Needless to say, this didn't really sit well with the US.

matchewed

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #66 on: August 18, 2015, 04:14:11 PM »
Yeah what's really important here is how we should have found a nicer way to slowly stop enslaving millions of people over hundreds of years.

YES! Finally someone gets it!

For example, what if we'd had a provision similar to in Latin America in 1850 instead of the Missouri Compromise. Then we'd have slavery outlawed by 1868 without a war.

Perhaps people's attitude would've adjusted to the point that the Civil Rights Act of 1875 actually would have been enforced.

No you're the one who doesn't get it. The south chose to secede, the south decided to start a war, and the primary reason was slavery. If a person's great grandad was in the Civil war then he can feel free to put up the flag. But our state and federal government buildings should not be flying flags that represent and support that side of the history.

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #67 on: August 18, 2015, 04:33:36 PM »
Yeah what's really important here is how we should have found a nicer way to slowly stop enslaving millions of people over hundreds of years.

YES! Finally someone gets it!

For example, what if we'd had a provision similar to in Latin America in 1850 instead of the Missouri Compromise. Then we'd have slavery outlawed by 1868 without a war.

Perhaps people's attitude would've adjusted to the point that the Civil Rights Act of 1875 actually would have been enforced.

No you're the one who doesn't get it. The south chose to secede, the south decided to start a war, and the primary reason was slavery. If a person's great grandad was in the Civil war then he can feel free to put up the flag. But our state and federal government buildings should not be flying flags that represent and support that side of the history.

What about the american citizens put into camps on the west coast in WWII? Shouldn't the American flag be taken down for that? And someone already mentioned the indians. Slavery surely wasn't good for those in it, but I doubt the friends I had who spent four years in a camp had a good time either. And though it was 'only' four years, they didn't know that at the time. Ditto for the indians who were run out of town.

Of course, a real lesson in all this, be it the jews or africans (both of whom were done in by their own kind) is this: never, ever, go along with someone who comes knocking. And for the indians, someone shows up on your beach? Sink those ships.

We have had some black marks in the past as america. But so what? I will never apologize for winning. So we were last in abolishing official slavery. Who cares.

bwall

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2015, 04:34:19 PM »
Yeah what's really important here is how we should have found a nicer way to slowly stop enslaving millions of people over hundreds of years.

YES! Finally someone gets it!

For example, what if we'd had a provision similar to in Latin America in 1850 instead of the Missouri Compromise. Then we'd have slavery outlawed by 1868 without a war.

Perhaps people's attitude would've adjusted to the point that the Civil Rights Act of 1875 actually would have been enforced.

No you're the one who doesn't get it. The south chose to secede, the south decided to start a war, and the primary reason was slavery. If a person's great grandad was in the Civil war then he can feel free to put up the flag. But our state and federal government buildings should not be flying flags that represent and support that side of the history.

I'm not sure what I don't get. I agree with everything you said, 100%.

bwall

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #69 on: August 18, 2015, 09:35:09 PM »
Good question.  Any know more on how European countries abolished slavery?

This is where it gets tricky. Slavery was never legal in modern Europe. In their colonies, yes. But only in the colonies. Britian, for example, outlawed slavery there in the 1700's (I think)

1833 actually.  What they actually did was to restrict chattel slaver over several decades, starting with a ban on engaging in the slave trade with France and French colonies in 1806; because England was at war with France at the time.  The next step was to restrict the slave trade generally, thus preventing the profits of said slave trade from influencing national politics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_Trade_Act_1807

This thus made it easier to campaign against slavery on moral grounds, as the MP's with economic ties to slavery reduced over decades.  Ultimately resulting in slavery being completely abolished in 1833.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_Abolition_Act_1833

So the entirety of the British Empire abolished slavery over almost 3 decades.

Furthermore, the Slave Trade Act of 1807 was a root cause of the War of 1812 between England & The US.  Mostly because the US was not at war with France, and did not have a trade embargo regarding slaves; so when British Navy ships would stop American & French merchant ships to and from France, they would often arrest US born English speakers under the charge of being British deserters.  Needless to say, this didn't really sit well with the US.

Thank you MoonShadow for bringing some nuance into the discussion of the Final Taboo in American society. Kentucky is where both Jefferson Davis and Abraham Lincoln were born. And, to the best of my knowledge, the only state that has memorials to both leaders. How fitting that a resident of this border state would also point out that:

The British needed almost 30 years to get rid of slavery. Their economy benefited from the slave trade, but it wasn't based on slavery like the South's was.

So why would anyone expect the South to abolish slavery overnight? Better yet, even though it took a four year war to bring about the end of slavery why would anyone expect anything to change just because the fighting stopped? And, sure enough, Redemption and Jim Crow saw to it that nothing changed for the black person in the South for 100 years after the war ended.

Perhaps if the abolitionists hadn't pushed so hard and war had been avoided, race relations would be better today?


sol

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #70 on: August 18, 2015, 10:02:26 PM »
Wait, did he just blame the people who fought AGAINST slavery for racial equality problems in America? 

That's some slippery logic right there, to claim that slave owners were trying to improve racial equity and abolitionists are somehow the devils in this story.

MoonShadow

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #71 on: August 18, 2015, 10:36:51 PM »
Wait, did he just blame the people who fought AGAINST slavery for racial equality problems in America? 

That's some slippery logic right there, to claim that slave owners were trying to improve racial equity and abolitionists are somehow the devils in this story.

Now, Sol.  Be fair.  He didn't say that.  He was musing about whether an extended model of abolition, similar to how the British did it, might not have resulted in the lingering cultural effects of a civil war.  For example, the KKK would likely never had existed if the war had been avoided.  But on the flip side, it wasn't Lincoln who wanted war; and the 3/5 compromise of the US Constitution, despite it's perceived intent today, existed to both incentivize the slave states to ratify the Constitution, as well as to incentivize future polititians in those same slave states towards ending the institution of slavery in their own states for political reasons.  Unfortunately, there were also monied interests in the non-slave states with real incentives to keep it going, so a civil war is what it took.  And the BS about states rights is still BS, if you have ever actually read the constitution of the confederacy; maintaining slavery was very much the point.

bwall

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #72 on: August 18, 2015, 11:16:40 PM »
Wait, did he just blame the people who fought AGAINST slavery for racial equality problems in America? 

That's some slippery logic right there, to claim that slave owners were trying to improve racial equity and abolitionists are somehow the devils in this story.

Now, Sol.  Be fair.  He didn't say that.  He was musing about whether an extended model of abolition, similar to how the British did it, might not have resulted in the lingering cultural effects of a civil war.  For example, the KKK would likely never had existed if the war had been avoided.  But on the flip side, it wasn't Lincoln who wanted war; and the 3/5 compromise of the US Constitution, despite it's perceived intent today, existed to both incentivize the slave states to ratify the Constitution, as well as to incentivize future polititians in those same slave states towards ending the institution of slavery in their own states for political reasons.  Unfortunately, there were also monied interests in the non-slave states with real incentives to keep it going, so a civil war is what it took.  And the BS about states rights is still BS, if you have ever actually read the constitution of the confederacy; maintaining slavery was very much the point.

This is why slavery is still a taboo subject. It's hard to have a calm, rational discussion about it, even among well educated individuals 150 years after the war ended. Thank you for clarifying, MoonShadow.

sol

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #73 on: August 18, 2015, 11:43:12 PM »
It's hard to have a calm, rational discussion about it, even among well educated individuals 150 years after the war ended.

I consider myself to be all three of those things.  How is it not calm or rational to ask if you really meant to blame abolitionists for modern American race relations when your exact words were, and I quote, "Perhaps if the abolitionists hadn't pushed so hard and war had been avoided, race relations would be better today?"

It seems pretty clear to this well-educated individual that you were blaming abolitionists for race relations, but if you can offer a different interpretation of your own words, I would calmly listen to your explanation.

Otherwise I think you're a secessionist apologist who is defending slave owners as morally superior to abolitionists, and I think that's pretty fucked up.  Please convince me that I misunderstood. 
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 11:48:41 PM by sol »

matchewed

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #74 on: August 19, 2015, 05:40:14 AM »
Yeah what's really important here is how we should have found a nicer way to slowly stop enslaving millions of people over hundreds of years.

YES! Finally someone gets it!

For example, what if we'd had a provision similar to in Latin America in 1850 instead of the Missouri Compromise. Then we'd have slavery outlawed by 1868 without a war.

Perhaps people's attitude would've adjusted to the point that the Civil Rights Act of 1875 actually would have been enforced.

No you're the one who doesn't get it. The south chose to secede, the south decided to start a war, and the primary reason was slavery. If a person's great grandad was in the Civil war then he can feel free to put up the flag. But our state and federal government buildings should not be flying flags that represent and support that side of the history.

I'm not sure what I don't get. I agree with everything you said, 100%.

You don't get that any alternative was a non-starter for the south. They went to war, they would have no matter what path was chosen.

GuitarStv

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #75 on: August 19, 2015, 06:38:47 AM »
And don't even get me started on the slavery issue.  American southerners flying the confederate flag fought and died for slavery a hundred years after most of the world had already outlawed slavery.  Then, as now, American's didn't seem very interested in what the rest of the world thought was morally correct.

The rest of the world, and I want to be clear here, the rest of the world can literally lick my nuts.  America is far from perfect, but without us, they'd all still be slaves to brutal dictatorial regimes.  We liberated ourselves, and then we helped out everyone who asked.

So, to hold this view I assume your history education ends about 70 years ago?  Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq, Afghanistan, Haiti, Pakistan .  .  . why do you think so many of the people you 'liberated' or are in the process of 'liberating' hate you so much for 'helping out everyone who asked'?

How are you squaring away the many brutal dictatorial regimes that had US support and backing during this time?  Saddam Hussein?  US backed.  Mobutu Seko?  US backed.  Emilio Medici?  US backed.  Augusto Pinochet?  US backed.  Ferdinand Marcos?  US backed.  Jean-Claude Duvalier?  US backed.  Osama bin Laden?  US backed.

Trying to whitewash 70 years of US history is a stupid tactic when you're talking with someone who wasn't born in the same jingoistic flag waving environment.

Tyson

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #76 on: August 19, 2015, 08:51:14 AM »
And don't even get me started on the slavery issue.  American southerners flying the confederate flag fought and died for slavery a hundred years after most of the world had already outlawed slavery.  Then, as now, American's didn't seem very interested in what the rest of the world thought was morally correct.

The rest of the world, and I want to be clear here, the rest of the world can literally lick my nuts.  America is far from perfect, but without us, they'd all still be slaves to brutal dictatorial regimes.  We liberated ourselves, and then we helped out everyone who asked.

So, to hold this view I assume your history education ends about 70 years ago?  Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq, Afghanistan, Haiti, Pakistan .  .  . why do you think so many of the people you 'liberated' or are in the process of 'liberating' hate you so much for 'helping out everyone who asked'?

How are you squaring away the many brutal dictatorial regimes that had US support and backing during this time?  Saddam Hussein?  US backed.  Mobutu Seko?  US backed.  Emilio Medici?  US backed.  Augusto Pinochet?  US backed.  Ferdinand Marcos?  US backed.  Jean-Claude Duvalier?  US backed.  Osama bin Laden?  US backed.

Trying to whitewash 70 years of US history is a stupid tactic when you're talking with someone who wasn't born in the same jingoistic flag waving environment.

Don't you know?  Gubment is bad, unless its doing stuff like that to "protect American Interests".  [/sarcasm]

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #77 on: August 19, 2015, 09:16:56 AM »
I'm not whitewashing anything.  The world is better off because of us.  Not every single individual in that world.  True.

You take the good with the bad.  I absolutely want the US to engage in much less use of force worldwide, but those situations and areas were shitty before we got involved, and that despite our best efforts they are still shitty isn't entirely our fault.  Should we have stayed out?  Yes.

If you see someone brutally beating their child in a restaurant, would you intercede?  Don't you have to?  I think the US is much better off because the rest of the world stood by and let us work it out ourselves.  The mistake we're making globally is not letting that happen elsewhere.  Pretty glad the French gave us all that gunpowder though.

Are our motives always that pure?  For many of the people involved, yes.  Are there always folks there with ulterior motives?  Yes.

Slavery in the South is indefensible.  Comparing it to slavery elsewhere in the world is a false choice.  Slavery was way worse in the South.  In most of the world, slavery is alot closer to indentured servitude, which is how it got started in the American colonies.  It evolved in southern plantations into something that boggles the mind with its abject and brutal subjugation.  That's why I say it is possibly the most horrible thing that has ever happened.  And it got worse and worse every year.  So ending it was as much about stopping the escalation of the awfulness as anything else.  Southern slavery was not just entrenched and awful, it was getting worse.

And there is no way that the majority of soldiers fighting for either side really knew what it was like.  Abolitionists were so vocal in their advocation of an end to it because it was so bad, but very few people spent that much time at a plantation.  And there was no wikipedia, not many books with photographs.

There is literally no other group of people in the history of the world that were treated as badly as the plantation slave in the South.  None.  It is a testament to the strength of the human spirit that slavery didn't end with massive and widespread suicide.

The lasting legacy of southern slavery is that it set a new low for what the human race would do to itself.  From wikipedia:

"Even though slavery is now outlawed in every country, the number of slaves today is estimated as between 12 million and 29.8 million."

Rest assured that every one of those 29.8 million current slaves is better off than a slave in the American South.
--------------------------
As to the start of the war, the confederate states seceded, which they believed was their legal right.  The north disagreed, including several states that would later join the confederacy.  Federal troops stationed in South Carolina were asked to leave.  They declined, and were fired upon.  None were killed though (granted this is a stupid point to make, as firing artillery like that is clear intent to kill).  Lincoln called for every state to provide troops to retake the fort.  So the official declaration of war was both sides cracking under the stress.  In retrospect, federal troops and assets should have withdrawn from the South, or at least made it look like they were planning to withdraw.  And the South should have given them a little bit more time to come to that conclusion.  Who declared war?  Foreign troops on your sovereign soil is an act of war, period.  Insofar as there are laws governing that, this is a universally understood fact.  Lincoln calling for troops to retake the fort caused more states to secede, and precipitated Lincoln doing something abysmally awful in Maryland.  Lincolns refusal to acknowledge the reality that the South had left the union is as much to blame as the South actually leaving.  If the South had seceded over the right to have peanut butter, Lincoln would have reacted the same.  To argue that it wasn't about the North's view that leaving the union is prohibited, a concept that existed in no law or custom, is to misrepresent the historical reality.  The epithet hurled at southerners during the war was not slaver.  It was secessionist.

The "invasion" of confederate troops into Maryland: then a slave state (in which slavery was legal and ongoing even after the emancipation proclamation, which freed 0 actual slaves as it applied only where the U.S. was not in control), was kept from officially seceding because Lincoln suspended the rule of law, and abused his authority to incarcerate law-abiding american citizens.  He did this for strategic reasons, D.C. would have been totally surrounded.  Maryland was at most a literal battleground state, occupied by union forces, but loyal to the confederate cause (had Lincoln allowed it to self-determine, it would have gone confederate).

Given that slavery was on its way out economically, as slave labor can't compete with industrial advancements, there probably was a peaceful path.  Slavery in the south was so bad though, if anything even close to it existed today, I'd be pushing for the U.S. to invade and end it.  I think the South was right in their interpretation of states rights, and Lincoln marks the last president of the original American experiment, and the beginning of the Federally Incorporated States of America.  I also think the South picked the absolute worst issue to try and stand up for.

To say that the flag represents slavery though, is wrong.  It's not the flag of slavery.  If you choose to have it represent that, then fine.  That's your choice.  It represents alot of other things.  If you think it is borne with absolutely no shame, you are wrong.

I have the right to go to any public building I want and raise whatever flag I want.  Nobody has to leave it there and nobody has to like it.  Aside from a few people like Lincoln, who didn't respect the rule of law, most agree the constitution affords me the freedom of speech, of expression.

The American Civil War was awful.  Neither side was right.  The Northern histories like to tell a story where they were anti-slavery, but the true history is that slavery is an American moral stain.  The reason it's called the last battle of the american revolution is that 80 years before the civil war they knew slavery was a problem.  I don't agree that the South should have been allowed to work it out on their own, but I like to think there was a better option than 600,000 american soldiers dead.  Slavery was so terrible, ending the practice would have absolutely been worth any multiple of that number.  No man knows freedom if any man doesn't.

We can wish those who came before us never made mistakes, and we can try and learn as much as possible from those mistakes.

Burying the history is counterproductive though, it's book burning and knowledge destroying.  There is a consequence in enforcing your will on others.  Persuasion is always, always the better option.  Agree to disagree is not always going to be acceptable, and so you get human rights wars.  It is a bizarre and horrifying reality that war can be used to advance humanitarian ends.  Considering that war represents the breakdown of any humanitarian considerations.

Gin1984

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #78 on: August 19, 2015, 09:32:01 AM »
Quote
"Even though slavery is now outlawed in every country, the number of slaves today is estimated as between 12 million and 29.8 million."

Rest assured that every one of those 29.8 million current slaves is better off than a slave in the American South.

Please defend this.

zoltani

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #79 on: August 19, 2015, 09:55:33 AM »
Quote
"Even though slavery is now outlawed in every country, the number of slaves today is estimated as between 12 million and 29.8 million."

Rest assured that every one of those 29.8 million current slaves is better off than a slave in the American South.

Please defend this.

Yes please do!

Please tell us how the young girls that are trafficked into the sex trade industry and raped everyday are better off.


GuitarStv

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #80 on: August 19, 2015, 09:56:03 AM »
The US has done plenty of good for the world.  Dig back far enough and ignore the bad, you can say that about pretty much anybody though.  The first bills of rights, ending slavery, giving men and women equal rights . . . sounds pretty good yeah?  That was Iran, centuries ahead of the west.  Do they get a free pass forevermore too?

The US has done plenty of good.  Some parts of the world are better off because of you.  You've also worked very hard to damage that reputation in recent years, and it's the source of much of the animosity being directed towards your country these days.  On balance, it's tough to argue that the US has made the world a better place in the past 50 years.

If you see someone brutally beating their child in a restaurant, would you intercede?  Don't you have to?

Not a remotely valid comparison.

It's more like you are walking along the street and you see two people in a fist fight.  You want them to stop, so without asking any questions or getting much detail you walk up to the weaker looking guy and hand him a gun - which he promptly uses to shoot his opponent.  Then you walk along on your way feeling good for stopping the fight.

Maybe you helped the good guy.  Maybe you helped a child raping sex slave ring operator.  The problem is, you don't know.  Interceding is not always the best course of action.  First impressions can be wrong.  Often when you deal arms out to people you don't really know it can come back to bite you.

MoonShadow

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #81 on: August 19, 2015, 12:05:15 PM »
It's hard to have a calm, rational discussion about it, even among well educated individuals 150 years after the war ended.

I consider myself to be all three of those things.


Of course you do, Sol.  Everyone believes they are the rational ones.  Everyone believes they are the adult in the conversation.  Everyone believes they are close to the majority.  Very rare is the person who knows they are not, and knows why.

The test is not what you believe about yourself, but what others believe about you.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #82 on: August 19, 2015, 12:36:00 PM »
Quote
"Even though slavery is now outlawed in every country, the number of slaves today is estimated as between 12 million and 29.8 million."

Rest assured that every one of those 29.8 million current slaves is better off than a slave in the American South.

Please defend this.


Yes please do!

Please tell us how the young girls that are trafficked into the sex trade industry and raped everyday are better off.


I'm sorry if I somehow gave the impression that current human slavery is not horrible.  It is.  It absolutely is.  It's better than what used to exist in the southern plantation system.  Degrees of horribleness.

Maybe it comes down to personal preference.  Maybe it is silly to draw distinctions between depravity once it has sunk to those levels.  Personally, if I had to choose, I'd rather be a young woman stolen into sexual slavery today than a young woman born into slavery on a southern plantation in 1810.  I'm basing that solely on descriptions I've read of the treatment of both, and that it is worse to exist in a legally sanctioned awful condition than one that is illegal (the hope that help might be coming?), and the types of tortures that appeal to me the least.  I can't think of anything else I wouldn't rather choose to be born as, those are definitely bottom two. 

On balance, it's tough to argue that the US has made the world a better place in the past 50 years.


I'm going to do something I don't like, which is go to a single statistic that overwhelmingly reduces a very complicated discussion.  I don't agree with the analysis they've done, and am skeptical of the overall argument.  But I think it does apply to this discussion.

http://www.vox.com/2015/6/23/8832311/war-casualties-600-years

I ascribe to the belief that if the US had gone back to pre ww2 isolationist practices, the world as you see it today would be far far worse.  We'd be on to ww5 any day now, instead of warily sort of wondering if THIS major international incident is going to kick off ww3.

It is of course impossible to say.  Certainly the US could've done better.  I know a bunch who'd like a do-over on the whole Vietnam thing.  Probably the whole Afghanistan 1&2 and Iraq 2 things as well.

Iran is an interesting thing to bring up.  I will say they don't get a free pass forevermore, but neither does their current condition negate the many contributions of Persians throughout history.  I don't give the US a free pass, but neither do I look at a single thing done, or collection of things done, and pass summary judgement on an entire people.  Upon becoming the most powerful military in the world, the Persians set out to conquer the world.  We didn't.

Anyone been through a public education history class recently?  There's a bunch of stuff about the middle east they didn't cover at all when I went through.  Did you know we shot down an Iranian airliner by mistake? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

My formal education was woefully lacking in certain areas, so once I was done with formal studies I started reading everything I could on the Middle East, trying to get a good handle on why it is the way it is beyond "it's very hot, and there's no water."

I know alot more about it now, but I can't say I have a better answer.

DoubleDown

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #83 on: August 20, 2015, 12:28:19 PM »
... I kind of appreciate when private citizens fly them or put them on their clothes. It gives me warning that someone is very, very likely a giant tool.

Ha, good one!

SK Joyous

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #84 on: August 20, 2015, 12:56:22 PM »
It's hard to have a calm, rational discussion about it, even among well educated individuals 150 years after the war ended.

I consider myself to be all three of those things.


Of course you do, Sol.  Everyone believes they are the rational ones.  Everyone believes they are the adult in the conversation.  Everyone believes they are close to the majority.  Very rare is the person who knows they are not, and knows why.

The test is not what you believe about yourself, but what others believe about you.

I think you will find on this forum that a great many do believe Sol to be rational.  I cannot understand how you could fail to see that the quote "Perhaps if the abolitionists hadn't pushed so hard and war had been avoided, race relations would be better today?" doesn't sound like blaming the abolitionists for current race relations.  It seems quite straightforward.

I am very interested in this conversation, as it is always fascinating to hear the opinions of citizens of a country about their own country (especially in comparison to what citizens of other countries' opinions are).  Logically, there is no way to actually say whether the world would be better off without U.S. intervention (unless someone invents a time machine and we have a 'do-over'), so all we have are opinions.  My opinion is more situation-specific; I believe there are times when the results would have been better without intervention, and times when I believe intervention caused an improvement. 

I do not understand this:

"To say that the flag represents slavery though, is wrong.  It's not the flag of slavery.  If you choose to have it represent that, then fine.  That's your choice.  It represents alot of other things.  If you think it is borne with absolutely no shame, you are wrong."

Really, if people believe that it represents slavery, and that is how it is perceived, then it does - regardless of how you personally feel about it.  If you personally want to fly it, then that is your right (as you mentioned) - as an individual you can fly whatever flag you want - and have freedom of speech to say what you want as well.  However, it should not fly at public government buildings - this is what I took away from the controversy.  You can still fly it and display it on your person or in your house or whatever.  "I" have not 'chosen' for it to represent slavery/white supermacy, that is what the (clearly) vast majority of people see it as representing.  There really isn't any arguing that, is there?

On a not-so-serious note, I would like to point out that this quote doesn't quiiiiiiite apply to 'the rest of the world' - "but without us, they'd all still be slaves to brutal dictatorial regimes".  There were/are a lot of countries in the world that were not in brutal dictatorial regimes long before the U.S. came along - most of western Europe, Canada, Iceland just to name a few (I know you were using hyperbole, I'm just being picky) :)

MoonShadow

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #85 on: August 20, 2015, 04:54:32 PM »
It's hard to have a calm, rational discussion about it, even among well educated individuals 150 years after the war ended.

I consider myself to be all three of those things.


Of course you do, Sol.  Everyone believes they are the rational ones.  Everyone believes they are the adult in the conversation.  Everyone believes they are close to the majority.  Very rare is the person who knows they are not, and knows why.

The test is not what you believe about yourself, but what others believe about you.

I think you will find on this forum that a great many do believe Sol to be rational.

I'm sure many would.  In fact, I believe Sol is one of the few people on this forum willing to have a civil debate with those he disagrees with.  But I stand by my statements, Sol cannot really judge himself.  Neither can I.  We are not unbiased observers concerning ourselves.  I was not objecting to Sol interpretation of bwall's comments, but that Sol was passing judgement upon himself.  Effectively presenting himself as a representative of "an educated individual" who can actually have a calm & rational discussion about the Civil War 150 years after the fact.  Again, he very well could be that man, but he is not the one to judge.  Sol represents only himself, and bwall's comment was general.

Quote

 I cannot understand how you could fail to see that the quote "Perhaps if the abolitionists hadn't pushed so hard and war had been avoided, race relations would be better today?" doesn't sound like blaming the abolitionists for current race relations.  It seems quite straightforward.

I'm sure it seems straightforward to yourself.  This has already been explained by myself & others, and it doesn't even matter how it may sound, because it's just an opinion.  A thinking man wondering out loud about "what if's" that can never be proven or disproven. 

Quote

I am very interested in this conversation, as it is always fascinating to hear the opinions of citizens of a country about their own country (especially in comparison to what citizens of other countries' opinions are).  Logically, there is no way to actually say whether the world would be better off without U.S. intervention (unless someone invents a time machine and we have a 'do-over'), so all we have are opinions.  My opinion is more situation-specific; I believe there are times when the results would have been better without intervention, and times when I believe intervention caused an improvement. 


Exactly.  But with regard to many events, such as the US Civil War, even hindsight isn't clear on what the proper choices would have been.

Quote
I do not understand this:

Well, I didn't write that, and I don't agree with it either, so I'm not going to respond to this.  Perhaps you are getting your posters confused?  It's an easy mistake to do.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #86 on: August 21, 2015, 10:07:09 AM »

Really, if people believe that it represents slavery, and that is how it is perceived, then it does - regardless of how you personally feel about it.  If you personally want to fly it, then that is your right (as you mentioned) - as an individual you can fly whatever flag you want - and have freedom of speech to say what you want as well.  However, it should not fly at public government buildings - this is what I took away from the controversy.  You can still fly it and display it on your person or in your house or whatever.  "I" have not 'chosen' for it to represent slavery/white supermacy, that is what the (clearly) vast majority of people see it as representing.  There really isn't any arguing that, is there?


I see where the misunderstanding is.  You and I are saying the same thing.  Everyone is free to believe that a symbol has a particular meaning.  What's wrong is trying to force that meaning on others.

What's happened with the confederate flag is that a large number of people have said "it means this."  Another group of people have said "it means this other thing."  Both can be right at the same time, is my point.  Being in the majority/minority doesn't make one side more right than another.  There's no "vastness" to it.  This isn't 300 million people feel one way and 12 guys in a pickup feel the other.  This is 299.9 million people don't care either way, and a small minority wants to pick a fight with a smaller minority.

I'll use this as an example, because it was already brought up in the thread, and that's the swastika.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

From that article:  "The swastika (also known as the gammadion cross, cross cramponnée, or manji) (as a Chinese character: 卐 or 卍) is a symbol that generally takes the form of an equilateral cross, with its four legs bent at 90 degrees. It is considered to be a sacred and auspicious symbol in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism."

If you were to poll globally, you'd find it is overwhelmingly associated with the national socialists in germany in the 1930's and 1940's.  Horrible atrocities were committed during this time period.  And, as far as I know, it is still illegal in many parts of the world to openly display this symbol.  I think some parts of the US, maybe it was a national law? banned this symbol for a time.  But it is still widely used throughout the world in religious practices that, while some harmed by those flying the symbol might take offense, no actual offense is offered.

Repeatedly, allegations have been made in this thread that the only possible interpretation of the symbol of the stars and bars is in defense of racism and slavery.  My point is that to hold that position is untenable.  It's fine if you believe that yourself.  But it is not righteous to label others based solely on this one thing.  You're free to do so, but you're sort of guilty of the same behaviors and attitudes you are ostensibly against.  Tolerance, in general, is not hallmarked by censorship.

That's why I said taking it down from the statehouse hasn't actually accomplished what they think it has.  The flag is a distraction.  If it's threat was in the symbol, then at best it's a symbolic victory (oh yea, I did that).  If it's threat was that it actually still stood for violent rebellion in defense of slavery and racism...maybe we should be dealing with the imminent threat of open civil war instead of a silly flag (that ought to sound just as stupid to you as it does to me).  If you really believe that the flag stands for slavery, then take comfort in the fact that attacks on symbols never ever strengthen the underlying cause.  What would be better is if we, as a nation, could get to a point where a part of our history doesn't seem threatening to us. 

The south will, in all likelihood, not rise again.  The moral high road, if you're wondering, is to grin and bear it when the children of the south raise their fists and yell "the south will rise again."  It's not very sporting to go step on their necks.  Of course you can, it's just now there's two assholes in the room instead of the one.

http://www.wnd.com/2015/06/left-gets-carried-away-with-attacks-on-symbols/


DoubleDown

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #87 on: August 21, 2015, 12:28:46 PM »
Really, if people believe that it represents slavery, and that is how it is perceived, then it does - regardless of how you personally feel about it.

+1

I became even more in agreement with this when I once read or heard someone talking about how it matters more how the listener/viewer perceives the symbol or words, than how the presenter means it. It's an easy way to decide if it's time to ditch some archaic/offensive terms or symbols. So, in the continuing controversy over the NFL team named the Washington Redskins, you have the team owners and supporters insisting it's not a racist name. They cite all the same reasons: it's about heritage, history, honoring the Native American warriors, symbols of fierceness, etc.

Meanwhile, 95%+ of Native Americans feel it's a racist name. That, to me, is what matters most. It's like if I called some guy named Richard "Dick." And he says, really, I prefer to be called Richard. And I say, "Don't worry about it Dick, I mean no offense. Dick is a proud name, like Dick Tracy, and Dick Nixon. Anyway Dick, how about those Redskins?"

matchewed

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #88 on: August 21, 2015, 12:47:08 PM »

Really, if people believe that it represents slavery, and that is how it is perceived, then it does - regardless of how you personally feel about it.  If you personally want to fly it, then that is your right (as you mentioned) - as an individual you can fly whatever flag you want - and have freedom of speech to say what you want as well.  However, it should not fly at public government buildings - this is what I took away from the controversy.  You can still fly it and display it on your person or in your house or whatever.  "I" have not 'chosen' for it to represent slavery/white supermacy, that is what the (clearly) vast majority of people see it as representing.  There really isn't any arguing that, is there?


I see where the misunderstanding is.  You and I are saying the same thing.  Everyone is free to believe that a symbol has a particular meaning.  What's wrong is trying to force that meaning on others.

What's happened with the confederate flag is that a large number of people have said "it means this."  Another group of people have said "it means this other thing."  Both can be right at the same time, is my point.  Being in the majority/minority doesn't make one side more right than another.  There's no "vastness" to it.  This isn't 300 million people feel one way and 12 guys in a pickup feel the other.  This is 299.9 million people don't care either way, and a small minority wants to pick a fight with a smaller minority.

I'll use this as an example, because it was already brought up in the thread, and that's the swastika.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

From that article:  "The swastika (also known as the gammadion cross, cross cramponnée, or manji) (as a Chinese character: 卐 or 卍) is a symbol that generally takes the form of an equilateral cross, with its four legs bent at 90 degrees. It is considered to be a sacred and auspicious symbol in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism."

If you were to poll globally, you'd find it is overwhelmingly associated with the national socialists in germany in the 1930's and 1940's.  Horrible atrocities were committed during this time period.  And, as far as I know, it is still illegal in many parts of the world to openly display this symbol.  I think some parts of the US, maybe it was a national law? banned this symbol for a time.  But it is still widely used throughout the world in religious practices that, while some harmed by those flying the symbol might take offense, no actual offense is offered.

Repeatedly, allegations have been made in this thread that the only possible interpretation of the symbol of the stars and bars is in defense of racism and slavery.  My point is that to hold that position is untenable.  It's fine if you believe that yourself.  But it is not righteous to label others based solely on this one thing.  You're free to do so, but you're sort of guilty of the same behaviors and attitudes you are ostensibly against.  Tolerance, in general, is not hallmarked by censorship.

That's why I said taking it down from the statehouse hasn't actually accomplished what they think it has.  The flag is a distraction.  If it's threat was in the symbol, then at best it's a symbolic victory (oh yea, I did that).  If it's threat was that it actually still stood for violent rebellion in defense of slavery and racism...maybe we should be dealing with the imminent threat of open civil war instead of a silly flag (that ought to sound just as stupid to you as it does to me).  If you really believe that the flag stands for slavery, then take comfort in the fact that attacks on symbols never ever strengthen the underlying cause.  What would be better is if we, as a nation, could get to a point where a part of our history doesn't seem threatening to us. 

The south will, in all likelihood, not rise again.  The moral high road, if you're wondering, is to grin and bear it when the children of the south raise their fists and yell "the south will rise again."  It's not very sporting to go step on their necks.  Of course you can, it's just now there's two assholes in the room instead of the one.

http://www.wnd.com/2015/06/left-gets-carried-away-with-attacks-on-symbols/

So what exactly does the Confederate flag represent when it's hanging outside of a state's capital building? Why do people who interpret it as being racist and representing a terrible time in our history have to be the ones to grin and bear it? Why can't the people who interpret it as their heritage (conveniently ignoring all the baggage of that heritage) grin and bear that our world is moving on and that a very large chunk of our society view it as representative of slavery and rebellion?

Isn't the Confederate flag being flown by the government of the people for the people forcing an interpretation upon said people?

MoonShadow

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #89 on: August 21, 2015, 12:57:31 PM »

Meanwhile, 95%+ of Native Americans feel it's a racist name.


That's a fake statistic.  I literally have skin with a red tint, and I'm far from full-blooded.  It's as accurate a statement as saying an African American is "black".  I, personally, know of not one person who gives a damn what a football team in Washington state may call themselves; and I am certain my small data sample is more representative than whatever your's may be.

Rufus.T.Firefly

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #90 on: August 21, 2015, 01:09:01 PM »
Quote
So what exactly does the Confederate flag represent when it's hanging outside of a state's capital building? Why do people who interpret it as being racist and representing a terrible time in our history have to be the ones to grin and bear it? Why can't the people who interpret it as their heritage (conveniently ignoring all the baggage of that heritage) grin and bear that our world is moving on and that a very large chunk of our society view it as representative of slavery and rebellion?

Isn't the Confederate flag being flown by the government of the people for the people forcing an interpretation upon said people?

Totally agree. By the way, as an ardent defender of the First Amendment, I completely support private individuals' right to fly any flag they desire.

To add to your point, here are the three big problems with flying the Confederate flag at the Statehouse.

1) The flag went up at the Columbia, SC Statehouse in 1961, and later voted on in 1962 by an all-white vote of the legislature in response to the civil rights movement. (http://www.infoplease.com/spot/confederate4.html). South Carolina is not alone in this history. Georgia changed its flag to include the confederate battle flag in the 1956, 2 years after the Brown vs. Board decision. These changes occurred during an atmosphere of segregation, resentment and multiple law changes designed to send a message. (http://www.senate.ga.gov/sro/Documents/StudyCommRpts/00StateFlag.pdf)

2) The flag flying over the statehouse is not a historical artifact or a piece of national history - it is a replica.

3) It is the government's duty to promote free-speech of all private citizens per the first amendment. The government itself is not granted the right to free speech. Rather the government is limited in its speech by the first amendment.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #91 on: August 21, 2015, 03:55:32 PM »

Totally agree. By the way, as an ardent defender of the First Amendment, I completely support private individuals' right to fly any flag they desire.

To add to your point, here are the three big problems with flying the Confederate flag at the Statehouse.

1) The flag went up at the Columbia, SC Statehouse in 1961, and later voted on in 1962 by an all-white vote of the legislature in response to the civil rights movement. (http://www.infoplease.com/spot/confederate4.html). South Carolina is not alone in this history. Georgia changed its flag to include the confederate battle flag in the 1956, 2 years after the Brown vs. Board decision. These changes occurred during an atmosphere of segregation, resentment and multiple law changes designed to send a message. (http://www.senate.ga.gov/sro/Documents/StudyCommRpts/00StateFlag.pdf)

2) The flag flying over the statehouse is not a historical artifact or a piece of national history - it is a replica.

3) It is the government's duty to promote free-speech of all private citizens per the first amendment. The government itself is not granted the right to free speech. Rather the government is limited in its speech by the first amendment.

And these, particularly #1, all represent coherent and rational arguments for taking down the flag.  I was hoping if we kept it going someone would bring that up.  Putting the flag in that particular spot at the time it was done is relevant.  It was in support of racial discrimination.  The key here is unwinding a specific act done for a specific reason.  So we can say "we're taking this down, because of the intent with which it was raised.  With respect to the history and the heritage represented by this flag, it shouldn't be used for such ignoble purposes."  Do you see how that gets the flag down, respectfully, and is basically exactly what happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msmy-KAD6S4

That's very different from the wholesale denunciation of the symbol that took place earlier in this thread.


So what exactly does the Confederate flag represent when it's hanging outside of a state's capital building? Why do people who interpret it as being racist and representing a terrible time in our history have to be the ones to grin and bear it? Why can't the people who interpret it as their heritage (conveniently ignoring all the baggage of that heritage) grin and bear that our world is moving on and that a very large chunk of our society view it as representative of slavery and rebellion?

Isn't the Confederate flag being flown by the government of the people for the people forcing an interpretation upon said people?

No.  You bring your own interpretation with you to everything.  If it was flying over an inscription that read something like "We will enslave you all again" then sure.  Likewise, instead of taking it down, they could've accomplished the same goal by putting an inscription under it that read something like "In remembrance of our greatest shame."  Hopefully when it goes up in the museum it'll have a nice description of everything.  Both the shame and the other stuff. 

Again there's the assumption that a very large chunk of our society even gives a shit.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/politics/confederate-flag-poll-racism-southern-pride/

Or, out of the ones who can be bothered to care, agree with you.

But here's another poll

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2015/06/24/poll_most_want_rebel_flag_removed_from_sc_capitol_127104.html

That shows most in S.C. wanted it taken down from the s.c. capital.

So public opinion is fine with taking it down, but doesn't think it's racist.  In so far as the polling I've seen.  The breakdown of the polling further shows that your race is going to affect how you see it, surprising nobody, and also that your education level is going to affect how you see it, again, surprising nobody.

Incidentally, I really like Nikki Haley, at least, what little I know about her.

DoubleDown

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #92 on: August 21, 2015, 04:22:20 PM »

Meanwhile, 95%+ of Native Americans feel it's a racist name.


That's a fake statistic.  I literally have skin with a red tint, and I'm far from full-blooded.  It's as accurate a statement as saying an African American is "black".  I, personally, know of not one person who gives a damn what a football team in Washington state may call themselves; and I am certain my small data sample is more representative than whatever your's may be.

Yeah, I almost literally pulled that statistic out of my ass, but I knew that a majority of Native Americans who have been asked say they think the name is racist. Here's some actual polling that shows 67% of Native Americans find the Redskins name to be racist. My point anyway was not whether it's 95% or 67% or even 10 or 20%. My point is that if even a sizable minority find a name you are calling them offensive, it's probably best to use another name they don't find offensive. Once you're into majority territory -- just like the majority of people think the Confederate flag is a racist symbol -- it's definitely past time to retire it.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/lindseyadler/native-americans-offended-by-racial-slur#.nup8mXXP8D
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/05/15/the-redskins-poll-bill-oreilly-thought-didnt-ex/203661
http://mmqb.si.com/2014/04/03/washington-nfl-team-name-debate

MoonShadow

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #93 on: August 21, 2015, 04:33:18 PM »

Meanwhile, 95%+ of Native Americans feel it's a racist name.


That's a fake statistic.  I literally have skin with a red tint, and I'm far from full-blooded.  It's as accurate a statement as saying an African American is "black".  I, personally, know of not one person who gives a damn what a football team in Washington state may call themselves; and I am certain my small data sample is more representative than whatever your's may be.

Yeah, I almost literally pulled that statistic out of my ass, but I knew that a majority of Native Americans who have been asked say they think the name is racist. Here's some actual polling that shows 67% of Native Americans find the Redskins name to be racist. My point anyway was not whether it's 95% or 67% or even 10 or 20%. My point is that if even a sizable minority find a name you are calling them offensive, it's probably best to use another name they don't find offensive. Once you're into majority territory -- just like the majority of people think the Confederate flag is a racist symbol -- it's definitely past time to retire it.


Fair enough, but I don't agree with forcing the Washington Redskins to change their name, just because some people find it offensive.  Even a majority of a polled minority group. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #94 on: August 21, 2015, 05:23:48 PM »
If a sizable militant muslim population started living in a US city, how would you feel about them staring a team called the WTC Bombers?  They could have a warmup thing where they make airplane noises and pretend to be flying around.  And would probably just kill the Patriots every year . . . c'mon, it's been like . . . 14 years.  Clearly 9/11 is ancient history that all Americans should be over by now, right?  No need to be offended.

forummm

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #95 on: August 21, 2015, 05:36:22 PM »
If a sizable militant muslim population started living in a US city, how would you feel about them staring a team called the WTC Bombers?  They could have a warmup thing where they make airplane noises and pretend to be flying around.  And would probably just kill the Patriots every year . . . c'mon, it's been like . . . 14 years.  Clearly 9/11 is ancient history that all Americans should be over by now, right?  No need to be offended.

And, more to the point, would it be at all reasonable for the WTC Bombers to say "Hey, you all are being jerks to disrespect my heritage. I'm proud of my heritage."? And then they go setup their flag (a picture of 1 WTC exploding as a plane hits it) on the WTC grounds. You'd be cool with that right?

MoonShadow

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #96 on: August 21, 2015, 05:38:14 PM »
If a sizable militant muslim population started living in a US city, how would you feel about them staring a team called the WTC Bombers?  They could have a warmup thing where they make airplane noises and pretend to be flying around.  And would probably just kill the Patriots every year . . . c'mon, it's been like . . . 14 years.  Clearly 9/11 is ancient history that all Americans should be over by now, right?  No need to be offended.

I'm not.  Do you have soft skin?  This actually sounds like a great Saturday Night Live skit.

GuitarStv

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #97 on: August 21, 2015, 06:01:08 PM »
If a sizable militant muslim population started living in a US city, how would you feel about them staring a team called the WTC Bombers?  They could have a warmup thing where they make airplane noises and pretend to be flying around.  And would probably just kill the Patriots every year . . . c'mon, it's been like . . . 14 years.  Clearly 9/11 is ancient history that all Americans should be over by now, right?  No need to be offended.

I'm not.  Do you have soft skin?  This actually sounds like a great Saturday Night Live skit.

While I applaud you for sticking to your guns on that . . . it would be shocking to me if a similar scenario were allowed to play out in the US because of the number of Americans who would be offended.  Honestly, they would have a right to be offended.

MoonShadow

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #98 on: August 21, 2015, 07:25:51 PM »
If a sizable militant muslim population started living in a US city, how would you feel about them staring a team called the WTC Bombers?  They could have a warmup thing where they make airplane noises and pretend to be flying around.  And would probably just kill the Patriots every year . . . c'mon, it's been like . . . 14 years.  Clearly 9/11 is ancient history that all Americans should be over by now, right?  No need to be offended.

I'm not.  Do you have soft skin?  This actually sounds like a great Saturday Night Live skit.

While I applaud you for sticking to your guns on that . . . it would be shocking to me if a similar scenario were allowed to play out in the US because of the number of Americans who would be offended.  Honestly, they would have a right to be offended.

But no one has a right to not be offended.  There should be no government force applied to offensive opinions.  That is what the 1st amendment is all about.

Personally, I'd rather that jerks be allowed to state their positions in public; it would make it much easier to identify real racists, for example.

brooklynguy

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Re: Confederate Flag Discussion
« Reply #99 on: August 21, 2015, 08:41:49 PM »

So what exactly does the Confederate flag represent when it's hanging outside of a state's capital building? Why do people who interpret it as being racist and representing a terrible time in our history have to be the ones to grin and bear it? Why can't the people who interpret it as their heritage (conveniently ignoring all the baggage of that heritage) grin and bear that our world is moving on and that a very large chunk of our society view it as representative of slavery and rebellion?

Isn't the Confederate flag being flown by the government of the people for the people forcing an interpretation upon said people?

No.  You bring your own interpretation with you to everything.  If it was flying over an inscription that read something like "We will enslave you all again" then sure. 

Why stop there?  After all, the series of Latin script characters constituting the referenced inscription is also merely a set of representative symbols requiring interpretation by the observer -- intrinsically, they are no more offensive than a random arrangement of lines and squiggles.  If the manner in which the symbols are actually interpreted by those who perceive them is irrelevant, then why should it matter that the entire English-literate public would interpret those symbols as meaning something offensive?