Author Topic: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.  (Read 3029 times)

GuitarStv

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Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« on: June 22, 2019, 01:00:18 PM »
So, I was out for my Saturday bike ride today.  Lovely weather (a little windy, but nice temperatures and sunny), and about 70 km from home . . . happily lost in my own little world on quiet back roads.  I had just crested a hill and was starting down the descent, doing between 50 - 55 km/h when a truck passed me very close.  Like inches close.  Which was weird for a variety of reasons:
- this is a particularly quiet and straight stretch of road, with nobody on it.  No reason not to leave a wide berth, or even cross to the other side.
- I was on the shoulder of the road, and the shoulder is pretty wide.  The truck had to cross over the white line onto the shoulder of the road to pass as close as it did.
- this is a pretty popular cycling route (the city nearby has been trying to attract more cyclists to the area and made this section of road a designated cycling route), and the farmers in the area are very used to cyclists and quite courteous.

So I thought it was weird, but didn't really do anything.  (Nothing to do anyway.)  Then after it had pulled in front of me the truck slowed down to about the speed that I was going at.  Something subconsciously dinged a few warning bells in my head, so I started braking immediately.  Right at about this time, large amounts of black smoke started to come out of the truck.  At first I was thinking that the guy was having some sort of break down (which would kinda explain why he was now driving half in the road and completely blocking the whole shoulder.  I was doing about 30 at this time, and it looked like he was going about the speed that I had been going (50 km/h).  So, I braked harder and started to think about moving into the lane to pass.

At this point the truck locked all four of his wheels (leaving some long black tire tracks on the road), and I barely stopped a few feet from the back of the truck.  Then he peeled away in a big cloud of black smoke.  The black smoke completely stopped when the truck had gone a a couple hundred meters up the road.  So I guess I've been 'coal rolled'?  It really seemed at the time like the guy was trying to kill me.

I thought about this encounter for the two and a half hour ride home, and have continued thinking about it.  I don't get it.  Like, usually going back over a bad encounter with a motorist it's possible to figure out where things went wrong.  Even if I didn't do anything illegal, there might be something that confused/startled the motorist that I could change in the future.  I've got nothing.  Help me understand, what possible reasoning would cause a person to do this?

dcheesi

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2019, 01:16:15 PM »
You already know the answer, you just don't want it to be true. The fact is, your mere existence as a road cyclist made you a target of this assault/harassment. The guy (I feel I'm safe in assuming it was a he) probably assumed you were an environmentalist in some sense, and that was enough. The whole point of "coal rolling" is to defy, deny, and offend any and all sense of environmental responsibility and/or propriety; this is just a further extension of that.

I'm sorry that you experienced this; I'm not sure what to do about it, aside from making some sort of report (that will probably go directly into the "round file") :-(

ketchup

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2019, 01:50:30 PM »
It blows my mind that this is A Thing at all.  Nearly killing someone "just because."  It would have been more civil if he pulled up next to you and shouted "Hey, fuck you!"

I'm glad your warning bells went off and you braked early.  That could have gone very differently.  Do we need "bicycle dashcams" now?

Travis

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2019, 02:44:58 PM »
Do we need "bicycle dashcams" now?

Absolutely.  I see cyclists with Go-Pros on top of their helmets all the time and I doubt they're filming their commute for some motivational video.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2019, 03:42:42 PM »
A web cam would also be good for getting the truck license plate number.  Did he have those dangly bits on the back of the truck?   ;-)

Some people are like that.  It doesn't have to be bicycles.  I passed a car once and I guess the guy driving didn't like being passed by a woman driver in an ordinary car.  He immediately sped up, passed me, got back in the right lane right in front of me and slammed on his brakes.  If I hadn't already been alerted by his weird behaviour and started slowing down, I would have rear-ended him. As it was I am sure I put a month's wear of use on my brakes in the few seconds before he took off at speed.

Your truck driver and my car driver are both good candidates for the Darwin Award, we can only hope they get it.

MrUpwardlyMobile

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2019, 04:49:55 PM »
It reminds me of lunatic cyclists illegally riding on sidewalks and putting pedestrians in danger and getting mad that pedestrians are there. Plenty of dangerous sociopaths are everywhere.

mrmoonymartian

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2019, 05:57:38 PM »
Dehumanization of cyclists predicts self-reported aggressive behaviour toward them: A pilot study

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1369847818308593

GuitarStv

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2019, 06:20:45 PM »
It reminds me of lunatic cyclists illegally riding on sidewalks and putting pedestrians in danger and getting mad that pedestrians are there. Plenty of dangerous sociopaths are everywhere.

The tens of thousands of pedestrians killed each year by dangerous sociopathic cyclists on sidewalks certainly lend credence to your point.  Riding a bicycle on a sidewalk is absolutely the exact same as attacking someone with a two ton vehicle.

Thank you for your informed input.

Indexer

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2019, 07:35:16 PM »
Quote
Help me understand, what possible reasoning would cause a person to do this?

Don't try to figure it out, you can't fix stupid. Some people take pride in their ignorance.

It's a huge waste of fuel in a vehicle that is already expensive to fill up. The engine wasn't designed for the modifications to make that possible so he is likely causing himself some mechanical issues down the road. In other words, he is not on the FIRE path, and will probably work decades longer than you.


Good job noticing something was up and applying the brakes. ;-)

MrUpwardlyMobile

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2019, 08:12:03 PM »
It reminds me of lunatic cyclists illegally riding on sidewalks and putting pedestrians in danger and getting mad that pedestrians are there. Plenty of dangerous sociopaths are everywhere.

The tens of thousands of pedestrians killed each year by dangerous sociopathic cyclists on sidewalks certainly lend credence to your point.  Riding a bicycle on a sidewalk is absolutely the exact same as attacking someone with a two ton vehicle.

Thank you for your informed input.

You seem to have totally missed the point or chose to ignore it and resort to sarcasm and rudeness. Dangerous lunatics are not confined to motor vehicles.

But, for your information, in every place that Iíve ever had occasion to look up, pedestrians are far more likely to be harmed than cyclists.

NYC provides good data and breakdowns. Pedestrians are a https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/bicycle-crash-data-report-2017.pdf

In NYC, a city with thousands of accidents. You still see hundreds of incidences of cyclists hitting pedestrians. Fatalities are less likely than accidents with motor vehicles but unless youíve experienced a cyclist hitting a pedestrian or observed it, you might think such incidences are minor.  Theyíre not.  People can still get horribly maimed when a cyclist going 20mph slams into a pedestrian.

In NYC, experiencing a near miss because of a lunatic cycling on a side walk is quite a comparable experience to that bizarre and scary anecdote that the thread opened with.

less4success

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2019, 09:14:29 PM »
Agreed that there can be aggressive cyclists that break traffic laws, donít yield to pedestrians, etc., but Iíve never heard of a cyclist slowing down specifically to harass pedestrians. In other words: I donít think comparing self-absorbed people on bikes to coal-rollers is reasonable (or even relevant to the thread).

On topic: sorry you had to go through this. I would report it to the police (but not expect anything other than maybe incrementing some counter in their database). I have a Fly6 rear-facing camera to hopefully capture some sort of identifying info in the event of something like this (although I heard you need to identify the driver and not just the vehicle...).
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 09:19:26 PM by less4success »

GuitarStv

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2019, 07:11:07 AM »
It reminds me of lunatic cyclists illegally riding on sidewalks and putting pedestrians in danger and getting mad that pedestrians are there. Plenty of dangerous sociopaths are everywhere.

The tens of thousands of pedestrians killed each year by dangerous sociopathic cyclists on sidewalks certainly lend credence to your point.  Riding a bicycle on a sidewalk is absolutely the exact same as attacking someone with a two ton vehicle.

Thank you for your informed input.

You seem to have totally missed the point or chose to ignore it and resort to sarcasm and rudeness. Dangerous lunatics are not confined to motor vehicles.

But, for your information, in every place that Iíve ever had occasion to look up, pedestrians are far more likely to be harmed than cyclists.

NYC provides good data and breakdowns. Pedestrians are a https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/bicycle-crash-data-report-2017.pdf

In NYC, a city with thousands of accidents. You still see hundreds of incidences of cyclists hitting pedestrians. Fatalities are less likely than accidents with motor vehicles but unless youíve experienced a cyclist hitting a pedestrian or observed it, you might think such incidences are minor.  Theyíre not.  People can still get horribly maimed when a cyclist going 20mph slams into a pedestrian.

In NYC, experiencing a near miss because of a lunatic cycling on a side walk is quite a comparable experience to that bizarre and scary anecdote that the thread opened with.

The statistics you're mentioning are accidents.  Not assaults.  Which makes them completely unrelated to the incident I mentioned.  It was not an accident, it was very deliberate.  In fact to do the 'coal rolling' part of it he would have had to spend time and money to modify his vehicle . . . which makes it premeditated.  Your example is not equivalent.

A cyclist riding on the sidewalk (not behaviour I encourage or condone or partake in) is doing so typically because of inadequate cycling infrastructure, and a feeling that it is safer for them.  The behaviour of the truck driver being discussed in this thread significantly increased risks for the truck (he could have lost control while slamming on his brakes, he could have easily slid off the road while swerving over onto the shoulder).  Your example is not equivalent.

Finally, hitting someone with a vehicle weighing over a ton is radically different than hitting someone with a bicycle.  You may have discovered this yourself when looking over the statistics unrelated to the topic of this thread . . . that's why bicycle/pedestrian accidents result in serious injury and death so rarely, while automobile/cyclist accidents result in serious injury and death so often.  Neither are good (and certainly I'd be quite upset if a cyclist crashed into me while I was walking on a sidewalk), but drawing an equivalency in danger as you are doing is ridiculous.  Your example is not equivalent.

If you would like to make a thread for discussion about the dangers of cyclists, I'd encourage you to do so.  If you would like to continue to make false equivalencies in this thread, I'd like to politely ask you to stop posting.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2019, 08:50:16 AM »
These type of people have always existed, they just have a new toy now with the exhaust smoke.

These are the people who toss out beer bottles and actively try to break them on rocks.

People who will hold a bat out to take down mailboxes.

Toss burning cigarettes out the window while driving through a wooded area during a drought in August.

I just live by PAA.  People Are Assholes.

FIREstache

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2019, 10:56:08 AM »
I thought about this encounter for the two and a half hour ride home, and have continued thinking about it.  I don't get it.  Like, usually going back over a bad encounter with a motorist it's possible to figure out where things went wrong.  Even if I didn't do anything illegal, there might be something that confused/startled the motorist that I could change in the future.  I've got nothing.  Help me understand, what possible reasoning would cause a person to do this?

You already know the answer, you just don't want it to be true. The fact is, your mere existence as a road cyclist made you a target of this assault/harassment. The guy (I feel I'm safe in assuming it was a he) probably assumed you were an environmentalist in some sense, and that was enough. The whole point of "coal rolling" is to defy, deny, and offend any and all sense of environmental responsibility and/or propriety; this is just a further extension of that.

You are correct except for the part about the OP already knowing the answer.  He clearly was clueless as to why this encounter occurred as it did.  I'm sure the truck driver truly enjoyed it for the small price of burning a bit of fuel.

I'm American and have ridden many thousands of miles on my bike, including on the shoulder alongside busy freeways, and I've never had anything remotely close to this happening to me.

But as someone said, people are assholes.

Kris

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2019, 01:36:29 PM »
I thought about this encounter for the two and a half hour ride home, and have continued thinking about it.  I don't get it.  Like, usually going back over a bad encounter with a motorist it's possible to figure out where things went wrong.  Even if I didn't do anything illegal, there might be something that confused/startled the motorist that I could change in the future.  I've got nothing.  Help me understand, what possible reasoning would cause a person to do this?

You already know the answer, you just don't want it to be true. The fact is, your mere existence as a road cyclist made you a target of this assault/harassment. The guy (I feel I'm safe in assuming it was a he) probably assumed you were an environmentalist in some sense, and that was enough. The whole point of "coal rolling" is to defy, deny, and offend any and all sense of environmental responsibility and/or propriety; this is just a further extension of that.

You are correct except for the part about the OP already knowing the answer.  He clearly was clueless as to why this encounter occurred as it did.  I'm sure the truck driver truly enjoyed it for the small price of burning a bit of fuel.

I'm American and have ridden many thousands of miles on my bike, including on the shoulder alongside busy freeways, and I've never had anything remotely close to this happening to me.

But as someone said, people are assholes.

Really? I have. Iíve been followed by guys in pickups (why is it always guys) hollering at me, had a soft drink cup full of drink and ice thrown at me (hitting my rather hard in the shoulder and almost knocking me off my bike), been forced off the road and onto the gravel shoulder...

FIREstache

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2019, 02:32:37 PM »
I thought about this encounter for the two and a half hour ride home, and have continued thinking about it.  I don't get it.  Like, usually going back over a bad encounter with a motorist it's possible to figure out where things went wrong.  Even if I didn't do anything illegal, there might be something that confused/startled the motorist that I could change in the future.  I've got nothing.  Help me understand, what possible reasoning would cause a person to do this?

You already know the answer, you just don't want it to be true. The fact is, your mere existence as a road cyclist made you a target of this assault/harassment. The guy (I feel I'm safe in assuming it was a he) probably assumed you were an environmentalist in some sense, and that was enough. The whole point of "coal rolling" is to defy, deny, and offend any and all sense of environmental responsibility and/or propriety; this is just a further extension of that.

You are correct except for the part about the OP already knowing the answer.  He clearly was clueless as to why this encounter occurred as it did.  I'm sure the truck driver truly enjoyed it for the small price of burning a bit of fuel.

I'm American and have ridden many thousands of miles on my bike, including on the shoulder alongside busy freeways, and I've never had anything remotely close to this happening to me.

But as someone said, people are assholes.

Really? I have. Iíve been followed by guys in pickups (why is it always guys) hollering at me, had a soft drink cup full of drink and ice thrown at me (hitting my rather hard in the shoulder and almost knocking me off my bike), been forced off the road and onto the gravel shoulder...

I don't doubt it happens to some people, I just can't think of anything like that.  I've heard people yell on a few rare occasions, but I never hear well enough to make out what they are saying or if it's meant in a hostile way.  If we add dogs to the mix, I've been chased by some big or ferocious looking dogs on several occasions.

Kris

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2019, 02:56:17 PM »
I thought about this encounter for the two and a half hour ride home, and have continued thinking about it.  I don't get it.  Like, usually going back over a bad encounter with a motorist it's possible to figure out where things went wrong.  Even if I didn't do anything illegal, there might be something that confused/startled the motorist that I could change in the future.  I've got nothing.  Help me understand, what possible reasoning would cause a person to do this?

You already know the answer, you just don't want it to be true. The fact is, your mere existence as a road cyclist made you a target of this assault/harassment. The guy (I feel I'm safe in assuming it was a he) probably assumed you were an environmentalist in some sense, and that was enough. The whole point of "coal rolling" is to defy, deny, and offend any and all sense of environmental responsibility and/or propriety; this is just a further extension of that.

You are correct except for the part about the OP already knowing the answer.  He clearly was clueless as to why this encounter occurred as it did.  I'm sure the truck driver truly enjoyed it for the small price of burning a bit of fuel.

I'm American and have ridden many thousands of miles on my bike, including on the shoulder alongside busy freeways, and I've never had anything remotely close to this happening to me.

But as someone said, people are assholes.

Really? I have. Iíve been followed by guys in pickups (why is it always guys) hollering at me, had a soft drink cup full of drink and ice thrown at me (hitting my rather hard in the shoulder and almost knocking me off my bike), been forced off the road and onto the gravel shoulder...

I don't doubt it happens to some people, I just can't think of anything like that.  I've heard people yell on a few rare occasions, but I never hear well enough to make out what they are saying or if it's meant in a hostile way.  If we add dogs to the mix, I've been chased by some big or ferocious looking dogs on several occasions.

It might have something to do with location. I donít know where you live, but some areas tend to have a pretty rabid anti-bike contingent. The soft drink incident was on a rural highway in Iowa. In fact, most of the incidents I can remember were in Iowa...
« Last Edit: June 23, 2019, 03:44:07 PM by Kris »

Kris

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Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2019, 03:50:20 PM »
I thought about this encounter for the two and a half hour ride home, and have continued thinking about it.  I don't get it.  Like, usually going back over a bad encounter with a motorist it's possible to figure out where things went wrong.  Even if I didn't do anything illegal, there might be something that confused/startled the motorist that I could change in the future.  I've got nothing.  Help me understand, what possible reasoning would cause a person to do this?

You already know the answer, you just don't want it to be true. The fact is, your mere existence as a road cyclist made you a target of this assault/harassment. The guy (I feel I'm safe in assuming it was a he) probably assumed you were an environmentalist in some sense, and that was enough. The whole point of "coal rolling" is to defy, deny, and offend any and all sense of environmental responsibility and/or propriety; this is just a further extension of that.

You are correct except for the part about the OP already knowing the answer.  He clearly was clueless as to why this encounter occurred as it did.  I'm sure the truck driver truly enjoyed it for the small price of burning a bit of fuel.

I'm American and have ridden many thousands of miles on my bike, including on the shoulder alongside busy freeways, and I've never had anything remotely close to this happening to me.

But as someone said, people are assholes.

Really? I have. Iíve been followed by guys in pickups (why is it always guys) hollering at me, had a soft drink cup full of drink and ice thrown at me (hitting my rather hard in the shoulder and almost knocking me off my bike), been forced off the road and onto the gravel shoulder...

That really sucks :-/. Not remotely in the same level of danger or issue, but I've noticed a much cooler reception from truck drivers driving my Prius than I did before in a standard sedan...

FINate

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2019, 04:53:13 PM »
That's terrible.

I've had many dangerous incidents with autos while biking, and this is supposedly a bike friendly place.

Anti-environmentalism may play into it, but what I encounter seems like plan old rudeness, impatience, and a sense of entitlement from drivers. No, really, entitlement. Drivers complaining on social media that they have more of a right to the road than cyclists and then getting quite upset when others politely inform them that bikes have the same rights to the road.

The vehicles I've learned to fear the most are the FedEx/UPS delivery trucks, then pickup trucks, and a very close third are minivans (esp. near school pickup time). However, my closest call was with a Prius that decided to pass me on a blind curve, double yellow line, no bike lane, and then almost rammed me off the road as he swerved to avoid oncoming traffic. I followed him into the same school drop off line I was headed to which means he endangered my life and my kids life to save about 2 seconds. He also got a talking to from me which seemed to make him rather nervous.

I also find it curious, and annoying, than when cyclists bring up these issues some are quick to point out laws bikers break. It's a bad case of whataboutism. Yes, some bikers do stupid things, but this mostly puts them not others in danger. Whereas drivers doing stupid things in 2 ton hunks of steel are extremely dangerous to others, and cars breaking traffic laws are so pervasive that most people don't even notice it, even when it's things like flying through intersections against a red light or the dreaded right hook. Sorry not sorry, the two just are not at all equivalent and it would be great if drivers weren't so complacent about their driving habits.   
« Last Edit: June 23, 2019, 04:55:06 PM by FINate »

GuitarStv

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2019, 05:25:20 PM »
I thought about this encounter for the two and a half hour ride home, and have continued thinking about it.  I don't get it.  Like, usually going back over a bad encounter with a motorist it's possible to figure out where things went wrong.  Even if I didn't do anything illegal, there might be something that confused/startled the motorist that I could change in the future.  I've got nothing.  Help me understand, what possible reasoning would cause a person to do this?

You already know the answer, you just don't want it to be true. The fact is, your mere existence as a road cyclist made you a target of this assault/harassment. The guy (I feel I'm safe in assuming it was a he) probably assumed you were an environmentalist in some sense, and that was enough. The whole point of "coal rolling" is to defy, deny, and offend any and all sense of environmental responsibility and/or propriety; this is just a further extension of that.

You are correct except for the part about the OP already knowing the answer.  He clearly was clueless as to why this encounter occurred as it did.  I'm sure the truck driver truly enjoyed it for the small price of burning a bit of fuel.

I'm American and have ridden many thousands of miles on my bike, including on the shoulder alongside busy freeways, and I've never had anything remotely close to this happening to me.

But as someone said, people are assholes.

The thing is, the vast majority of people aren't assholes.

At least in my experience.  I mean, I might not see eye to eye with them on certain issues, their belief system might be totally foreign to me, we might have wildly differing takes on philosophy/morality . . . but I honestly have always found it pretty rare that someone will hurt (or try to hurt) another person deliberately solely because they derive some sort of perverse enjoyment from it.

I have to suspect that this is generally true for most people for society to function.

Buffalo Chip

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2019, 07:50:15 PM »

I'm American and have ridden many thousands of miles on my bike, including on the shoulder alongside busy freeways, and I've never had anything remotely close to this happening to me.

But as someone said, people are assholes.

You must be living under a lucky star. Iíve had several issues, a couple just this week. Friday afternoon seemed to really bring out the jerks. Had one revving his engine behind me. Another honking his horn. I probably couldíve handled it better.

I think thereís a helmet mounted go pro in my future.

Zamboni

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2019, 09:15:41 PM »
Wow, that is horrible. It sounds like you had your wits about you to prevent it from being even worse. Understandable that you have thought long and hard about it.

My Dad has a saying: "One out of every 100 people is just a total asshole."

My time working with large volumes of people, in a situation that might bring out asshole behavior and in numbers that can be easily tracked, shows that he is really quite close to the mark on the ratio. Yes, most people are decent. The issue is that total assholes stay in our memory so much longer than normal people that it does sometimes seem like they are everywhere.

dragoncar

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2019, 11:57:07 PM »
It reminds me of lunatic cyclists illegally riding on sidewalks and putting pedestrians in danger and getting mad that pedestrians are there. Plenty of dangerous sociopaths are everywhere.

The tens of thousands of pedestrians killed each year by dangerous sociopathic cyclists on sidewalks certainly lend credence to your point.  Riding a bicycle on a sidewalk is absolutely the exact same as attacking someone with a two ton vehicle.

Thank you for your informed input.

Cyclists definitely kill pedestrians, so there are sociopaths aplenty.  Not sure why you are downplaying the fact that there is a hierarchy of dangerous vehicles and pedestrians are at the bottom.  Let me tell you about the time a cyclist pushed me out of the way as I crossed at the crosswalk with a walk sign.  And yes, I cycle myself.

Iím sorry you were endangered... Iíd definitely get a dash cam/bikecam.  Iím even thinking of getting a strolleram given the amount of times Iíve seen people blow a stop sign as Iím about to Cross. 

MrUpwardlyMobile

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2019, 05:57:02 AM »
It reminds me of lunatic cyclists illegally riding on sidewalks and putting pedestrians in danger and getting mad that pedestrians are there. Plenty of dangerous sociopaths are everywhere.

The tens of thousands of pedestrians killed each year by dangerous sociopathic cyclists on sidewalks certainly lend credence to your point.  Riding a bicycle on a sidewalk is absolutely the exact same as attacking someone with a two ton vehicle.

Thank you for your informed input.

Cyclists definitely kill pedestrians, so there are sociopaths aplenty.  Not sure why you are downplaying the fact that there is a hierarchy of dangerous vehicles and pedestrians are at the bottom.  Let me tell you about the time a cyclist pushed me out of the way as I crossed at the crosswalk with a walk sign.  And yes, I cycle myself.

Iím sorry you were endangered... Iíd definitely get a dash cam/bikecam.  Iím even thinking of getting a strolleram given the amount of times Iíve seen people blow a stop sign as Iím about to Cross.

Thank you.  Youíre seeing it spot on correct. The notion that dangerous sociopaths are unique to a particular mode of transportation is just ridiculous.  Dangerous sociopaths can be found all over and through all modes of transport.

mtnrider

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2019, 07:04:22 AM »
So I guess I've been 'coal rolled'? 

Ugh.  I'm so sorry.

If it were me, I'd be really unnerved by the experience.  Every traffic or dog incident haunts me years later as I ride by the location where it had happened.  I'm sure you'll get back on the bike though.


John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2019, 07:24:29 AM »
Wow, that is horrible. It sounds like you had your wits about you to prevent it from being even worse.

+1

the_gastropod

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2019, 11:47:25 AM »
In NYC, experiencing a near miss because of a lunatic cycling on a side walk is quite a comparable experience to that bizarre and scary anecdote that the thread opened with.

I don't often see cyclists on sidewalks in NYC. But if you do, consider that just a couple hours ago, this happened right outside of where I work: https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-tractor-trailer-strikes-bicyclist-chelsea-20190624-zvtaijqxvvh2vl2hxho47voqj4-story.html


GuitarStv

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2019, 12:20:54 PM »
It reminds me of lunatic cyclists illegally riding on sidewalks and putting pedestrians in danger and getting mad that pedestrians are there. Plenty of dangerous sociopaths are everywhere.

The tens of thousands of pedestrians killed each year by dangerous sociopathic cyclists on sidewalks certainly lend credence to your point.  Riding a bicycle on a sidewalk is absolutely the exact same as attacking someone with a two ton vehicle.

Thank you for your informed input.

Cyclists definitely kill pedestrians, so there are sociopaths aplenty.  Not sure why you are downplaying the fact that there is a hierarchy of dangerous vehicles and pedestrians are at the bottom.  Let me tell you about the time a cyclist pushed me out of the way as I crossed at the crosswalk with a walk sign.  And yes, I cycle myself.

Iím sorry you were endangered... Iíd definitely get a dash cam/bikecam.  Iím even thinking of getting a strolleram given the amount of times Iíve seen people blow a stop sign as Iím about to Cross.

I'm not trying to downplay the fact that there is a hierarchy of dangerous vehicles.  The very hierarchy you mention is one of several reasons that I don't think comparing a cyclist on a sidewalk to a person who attacks a cyclist with a pickup truck is very apt.

I agree with you that pedestrians are at the bottom of this hierarchy . . . but would argue that cyclists are largely in the same category.  My understanding (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) is that in pedestrian/cyclist crashes the cyclists tend to fare pretty poorly as well.  Of course, there is typically no harm done to a motorist who causes an accident with a pedestrian or cyclists.

Yes, cyclists definitely kill pedestrians.  But the numbers are frankly, kinda silly when you compare them.  I've been unable to find total stats for the US, but in Britain you are roughly 25 times more likely to be struck and killed by lightning (49 people each year - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0169809500000831) than as a pedestrian by a cyclist (Just over 2 people per year on average - https://fullfact.org/health/cyclist-deaths/).  The New York stats provided earlier (https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/bicycle-crash-data-report-2017.pdf) tell a similar story.  They show that cyclists get into accidents with pedestrians at a rate of about 300 a year.  Vehicles hit about 11,000 pedestrians and 4,000 cyclists a year.   Again, it's just not comparable.  You're talking orders of magnitudes of difference.

It just doesn't make much sense to compare a cyclist riding a bike on a sidewalk all to the kind of malicious and premeditated attack that happened to me.  Have you ever run across a story of a cyclist purposely driving his/her bike into another person or group of people out of rage?  Examples of motorists doing that with cyclists are sadly pretty common as two seconds of googling reveals:
https://road.cc/content/news/250868-video-melbourne-driver-swerves-cyclist-and-rams-him-road
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRQ5OUSNwwE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQUIoCX8_7o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I10RPDo7bpo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrFOJrOYDnU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWSOxCsAYc0

So, again, I have to ask that the false equivalencies in this thread stop.  If you would like to talk about the dangers of sociopathic cyclists, please make a new thread to do so.


I spend time each week walking around as a pedestrian, riding my bike as a cyclist, and driving my car as a motorist.  I'm not blind to any of the faults and problems associated with each mode of transportation.  I'm sorry that a cyclists pushed you while you were walking in a crosswalk, that sucks.  He shouldn't have done that, and you would have been well within your rights to push him back - right off his bike.  Cyclists should not ride their bikes on sidewalks.  It's not safer for the cyclist, and is more dangerous for pedestrians.

v8rx7guy

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2019, 12:36:19 PM »
It's redneck entertainment...  They also love to do it to convertibles stopped at red lights.

dragoncar

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2019, 01:25:21 PM »
Nobody is setting a false equivalence.  You asked why someone would do this, and as I understood the answer, it was that people are sometimes simply jerks.

That said, Iím curious if your numbers are adjusted for the prevalence of cycling (pedestrian deaths per passenger mile in that mode of transportation).  And yes, I have personally seen cyclists assault pedestrians, myself included for doing no more than doing pedestrian things.  Iím not saying all cyclists are jerks any more than all car drivers are jerks.  But what MAKES car drivers jerks?  Probably the same thing that makes cyclists jerks or pedestrians kick dogs.  The additional power differential enables this jerkers.  I really doubt the cyclist who violently pushed me would have done so if he was on foot and I had a chance to fight back

BoonDogle

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2019, 03:52:39 PM »
Nobody is setting a false equivalence.  You asked why someone would do this, and as I understood the answer, it was that people are sometimes simply jerks.

That said, Iím curious if your numbers are adjusted for the prevalence of cycling (pedestrian deaths per passenger mile in that mode of transportation).  And yes, I have personally seen cyclists assault pedestrians, myself included for doing no more than doing pedestrian things.  Iím not saying all cyclists are jerks any more than all car drivers are jerks.  But what MAKES car drivers jerks?  Probably the same thing that makes cyclists jerks or pedestrians kick dogs.  The additional power differential enables this jerkers.  I really doubt the cyclist who violently pushed me would have done so if he was on foot and I had a chance to fight back

I think you make a good point here.  But the point you are missing is that it is much more unnerving and dangerous when the power differential is a 2000 pound vehicle vs a 200 pound biker.  I think the OP has already acknowledged that jerks are everywhere.  The false equivalence is comparing the jerks in vehicles that readily kill cyclists to the jerks on a bike that rarely kill pedestrians.

ncornilsen

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2019, 08:05:44 AM »
It's redneck entertainment...  They also love to do it to convertibles stopped at red lights.

I particularly enjoyed doing it to the guys in their Honda with obnoxious exhausts who thought they were fast (Or did, until a ugly dodge truck pulled two car lengths on them while belching a cloud of smoke)...  later in life I realized irony of that situation.

This wasn't on purpose by any means, but I nearly hyperventilated laughing after a cow pooped through the slats on the trailer as we turned right onto another road, the centrfugal force flinging the poop into the interior of a BMW vert with the top down. We offered to pay for the cleanup of it, but the guy never called us back to collect.

GuitarStv

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2019, 08:41:09 AM »
Nobody is setting a false equivalence.  You asked why someone would do this, and as I understood the answer, it was that people are sometimes simply jerks.

Let me provide a slightly different example to show how what you're doing is a false equivalence.

What if this thread was about a woman who was knocked to the ground by a rapist, but managed to fight him off and get away?  She's trying to make sense of the attack.

Then people come into the thread and say, "That rapist was a sociopath jerk.  I was walking in a crowd once and a woman touched my ass.  Women are sociopath jerks too!"

It is a false equivalence because with your comments you're equating two very different things in terms of danger, intent, and impact.  Having your ass grabbed against your wishes is certainly not a good thing, but it's different than going through an attempted rape.  Equating the rapist with an ass-grabbing woman is a false equivalency.

I'm sorry that you were bumped in a crosswalk by a cyclist who shouldn't be riding on the sidewalk.  But riding a bicycle on the sidewalk too close to another person is not at all the same as swerving towards and brake checking a cyclist on the road with a truck.  It's not the same in terms of danger, intent, or impact.



That said, Iím curious if your numbers are adjusted for the prevalence of cycling (pedestrian deaths per passenger mile in that mode of transportation).

To the best of my knowledge no such study exists.  Determining the number of miles cycled/walked on average is fraught with peril due to under-reporting.  By it's nature, such a study has to be made up largely of guesses.



And yes, I have personally seen cyclists assault pedestrians, myself included for doing no more than doing pedestrian things. 

I guess that's the problem with anecdotes.  We all have different ones.  I have personally never seen a cyclist stop his bicycle to assault a pedestrian for doing no more than "pedestrian things" (walking?).  I've never seen a cyclist who had spent money to modify his bicycle purely with the intent to assault pedestrians.

Where do you live, that this is a regular occurrence?  Can you describe exactly what happened in the incident you mentioned?

The vast majority of pedestrian/cyclist/motorist altercations that I've seen there is an explanation for behaviour.  It might be a poor explanation (maybe a car didn't want to slow down to let a pedestrian cross at a cross-walk, maybe a cyclist was swerving through masses of people on a sidewalk to go faster, maybe a pedestrian was walking in the bike lane while trying to read messages on his phone) but there is typically a reason for the behaviour.  The truck driver's behaviour doesn't fit into those categories.  I wasn't impeding his ability to go quickly, wasn't blocking his lane, wasn't doing anything at all that would impact his life.  That's quite unusual in my experience.  I've never seen similar behaviour from a cyclist or pedestrian.



Iím not saying all cyclists are jerks any more than all car drivers are jerks.  But what MAKES car drivers jerks?  Probably the same thing that makes cyclists jerks or pedestrians kick dogs.  The additional power differential enables this jerkers.  I really doubt the cyclist who violently pushed me would have done so if he was on foot and I had a chance to fight back

If you get into an accident with a pedestrian while you're riding your bike, there's a good chance that you'll get hurt.  If you get into an accident with a pedestrian or a bike while driving your car, there's almost no chance that you'll get hurt.  In addition, it's harder for a motorist to be caught for misbehavior.  That's why there are so many hit and run incidents.

If I were to take a stab at it, I suspect that automobile drivers are more often jerks because they know that they are protected by their vehicles.  I've never had another bicycle swerve in front of me and brake check me . . . but I have had automobiles do this (both while on my bike, and while driving).

In addition to this protection, a vehicle is a virtual guarantee of anonymity.  It's hard to see a driver behind the tinted glass in a car.  The driver doesn't need to look their victim in the eye, so it's easier to dehumanize others.  This extends well beyond bikes to the way that vehicles interact with pedestrians and other vehicles too.  It is common to see rude behavior on a highway from people who would never dream of acting in the same way if they were walking on a sidewalk.  I think that this contributes to the more extreme behaviour that is more common from motorists than pedestrians or cyclists.

FIREstache

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2019, 03:19:25 PM »
It just doesn't make much sense to compare a cyclist riding a bike on a sidewalk all to the kind of malicious and premeditated attack that happened to me.  Have you ever run across a story of a cyclist purposely driving his/her bike into another person or group of people out of rage?  Examples of motorists doing that with cyclists are sadly pretty common as two seconds of googling reveals:

So, you've had these incidents with motor vehicles while biking before?  I've bikes many thousands of miles over the years and continue to ride, but I've never had any negative experience from drivers of motor vehicles by what I would call intentional actions by the driver.  Sometime they honk coming up behind me, but I assume that's just to let me know they are there and passing because they don't know that I already know they are there.  They've never laid on the horn.  I've never ridden in Canada, so I'm speaking of riding here in the midwest USA.

Quote
It is common to see rude behavior on a highway from people who would never dream of acting in the same way if they were walking on a sidewalk.

Well there you go.  That goes back to my comment about "people are assholes".  I didn't say "ALL people", but when you get people out on the road, it seems to bring out a little more asshole like behavior where you might not normally classify someone as one.

Anyway, be careful.  You probably made that guy's day, so he might be looking out to get you even better next time.

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned the lasting impression of the dog incident and how they felt every time they rode by where it happened.  I remember as well, so I am prepared to ride by at higher speed before the dog can see me and get an early run at me.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 03:21:03 PM by FIREstache »

scottish

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2019, 03:39:52 PM »
Have you decided if this will affect your future Sunday rides?     Will you change your route?  Go on mountain bike trails instead of the highway?     Get a gopro to capture evidence?


RetiredAt63

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2019, 04:24:59 PM »
Thanks to this discussion I now have the proper term (brake checking) to describe what the driver I described several posts back did to me when I passed him.

I have to say, brake checking and other aggressive acts are not new, and can certainly happen in Canada.  I was brake checked on highway 40 in Quebec and it was well over 15 years ago.  I still remember it vividly.  Dash cams are new and I think they are a great idea, especially if they are really visible and the aggressive driver knows he (they mostly seem to be he)  will be on film.

One thought - we have emissions tests, so how did that truck pass an emissions test when the owner was having the registration renewed?  Or was it too new to require the emissions test?

Le Poisson

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2019, 04:30:25 PM »
I was enjoying this thread.

Can we stop with the bike vs ped debate and stick with the topic at hand, which is the whole coal rolling thing?

RetiredAt63

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2019, 04:43:21 PM »
I was enjoying this thread.

Can we stop with the bike vs ped debate and stick with the topic at hand, which is the whole coal rolling thing?

I thought half was the coal rolling and half was the brake checking (as in attempted manslaughter)?

So, how can a truck manage to get registered when it does not meet emission control standards? And since there are emission control standards, how can it be legal for a garage to bypass them, as must have been done with this truck?

scottish

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2019, 04:47:16 PM »
The new conservative government has eliminated the emissions testing in Ontario for private vehicles.   I think the intent was to focus on commercial vehicles.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2019, 05:20:22 PM »
The new conservative government has eliminated the emissions testing in Ontario for private vehicles.   I think the intent was to focus on commercial vehicles.

Yikes.  That explains why my registration renewal notice for a 2010 car didn't ask for emissions testing.
 
Our air quality is so much better in cities now - wonder how long it will take for Toronto (Ford's power base) to start being smoggy.

GuitarStv

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2019, 07:23:37 PM »
Have you decided if this will affect your future Sunday rides?     Will you change your route?  Go on mountain bike trails instead of the highway?     Get a gopro to capture evidence?

I've thought about it a bunch.  Probably no change.  Can't let the terrorists win.

I'd remember to get his license plate if something similar happens in the future, but would put long odds on ever seeing the guy again.  I mean, I usually do a 140 or 160 km loop and will leave the house between 6:00 and 7:00 am.  Where I am half way through the ride is going to depend on the wind and how I'm feeling.  I don't think it would be possible for the guy to find me, even if he knew when I left or what route I take.  My concern is more that he does it to someone else and actually causes a bad accident.


Toronto (Ford's power base) to start being smoggy.

If we're his power base in Toronto, why is he doing everything in his power to make the city unlivable?  Defunding public health, child care, public housing, drug rehab programs, public education . . .

scottish

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2019, 08:01:20 PM »
Yeah, it'd be good to get that guy off the road before someone gets badly hurt.    I really don't like people who use their vehicle as a weapon.

I'm not sure Ford has a power base.    I mean, what does he stand for?   Who does he relate to?    Who cares about buck a beer anyway?

I thought Christine Elliot was going to be the party leader.  I'm pretty sure there were some backroom deals that put Ford out in front, I'm not sure why though.    Elliot was much more electable than Ford.  There have been some opinion pieces (see below for an example) that suggest Ford has been manipulated by his staff...  maybe they thought Christine Elliot would be harder to manage.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-what-luck-maybe-now-doug-ford-can-be-premier/

RetiredAt63

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2019, 06:45:51 AM »
Ford has to have some sort of power base - he and his party got elected.  Although my MPP (former conservative) is now an independent.  Wonder how many more of his own MPPs he will alienate?

I've heard a lot from Ontario Nature about his environmental legislation, I'm surprised they didn't also call out his elimination of emissions testing for cars.


jinga nation

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2019, 02:16:28 PM »
coal-rolled by his penis-extension? Maybe you on a bicycle made his little pee-pee vewwy vewwy angry. That guy has serious insecurities and is emotionally unstable.

Malkynn

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2019, 03:48:26 PM »
This is utterly horrifying.

I read this earlier today and didn't really have much to say in response other than "this is horrifying", so that's what I came back to say, as I've been bothered by this all day.

dragoncar

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2019, 05:20:55 PM »
Oh man, look what you made me do.  I had to get out my laptop to respond.

Nobody is setting a false equivalence.  You asked why someone would do this, and as I understood the answer, it was that people are sometimes simply jerks.

It is a false equivalence because with your comments you're equating two very different things in terms of danger, intent, and impact.  Having your ass grabbed against your wishes is certainly not a good thing, but it's different than going through an attempted rape.  Equating the rapist with an ass-grabbing woman is a false equivalency.


Well, I had to look up "false equivalence" to make sure I'm not losing my mind.  Wikipedia states that "False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal."  Also check out the examples, which use words like "no different".  I'm not saying, and never said, that a truck driver endangering a cyclist is the same, equal to, or no different from a cyclist endangering a pedestrian.  You are arguing against a strawman fallacy because I am not equating the danger or ultimate effect these attacks.  What I am saying is that the motivations are similar when you give power to a jerk.  You can disagree with that opinion, but it's not strictly a false equivalence.

Maybe there's a different phrase to mean what you accusing me of, something like dismissing your trauma (which was not my intent).  But if you must stick to your definition of false equivalence, you sir have stepped in it.  Because you then say:

Quote
What if this thread was about a woman who was knocked to the ground by a rapist, but managed to fight him off and get away?  She's trying to make sense of the attack.

Then people come into the thread and say, "That rapist was a sociopath jerk.  I was walking in a crowd once and a woman touched my ass.  Women are sociopath jerks too!"

Seems to me like an actual rape survivor might take offense that you are equating two very dissimilar things: A false equivalence between truck violence and bicycle violence, and a false equivalence between attempted rape and butt touching.  These are not similar comparisons.  In my cyclist attack example, I was violently pushed by a cyclist with superior height, weight and momentum.  I was in immediate apprehension for my safety, and if he was seen/caught by a nearby officer he would have gone to jail.  If you want to dismiss my own trauma from this assault, then perhaps you are not quite the pinnacle of empathy that you wish to see in others. 

In comparison, a woman touching a man's butt in public, while wrong, is very low on the priority list of society and police.  So my person anecdote is far more similar to your experience than is a butt-touching woman to a forcible rape.  In other words, these purported false-equivalencies are not equivalent.

Quote
I'm sorry that you were bumped in a crosswalk by a cyclist who shouldn't be riding on the sidewalk.  But riding a bicycle on the sidewalk too close to another person is not at all the same as swerving towards and brake checking a cyclist on the road with a truck.  It's not the same in terms of danger, intent, or impact.

Maybe you missed the part where I was more than "bumped."   This was definitely a malicious attack.  I agree that your experience bore a higher risk of death, but that doesn't prove that someone trying to hurt me won't have a similar motive.

Quote
That said, Iím curious if your numbers are adjusted for the prevalence of cycling (pedestrian deaths per passenger mile in that mode of transportation).

To the best of my knowledge no such study exists.  Determining the number of miles cycled/walked on average is fraught with peril due to under-reporting.  By it's nature, such a study has to be made up largely of guesses.

Sure, but my point is that you can't compare raw vehicle-pedestrian deaths to raw cyclist-pedestrian deaths and call it good.  You cite a bunch of articles/statistics implying that they show the entire story, but at the end of the day, your assertion that the risk is comparatively minuscule (on a per-passeger mile basis) is just a guess.  Here's a statistic: About 610,000 people die of heart disease in the United States every year.  Does that mean it's cool to say that the 15,000 car-on-cyclist/ped accidents are "just not comparable.  You're talking orders of magnitudes of difference?"  No, all these things suck, and we should work to reduce all deaths.

Quote
And yes, I have personally seen cyclists assault pedestrians, myself included for doing no more than doing pedestrian things. 

I guess that's the problem with anecdotes.  We all have different ones.  I have personally never seen a cyclist stop his bicycle to assault a pedestrian for doing no more than "pedestrian things" (walking?).  I've never seen a cyclist who had spent money to modify his bicycle purely with the intent to assault pedestrians.

Where do you live, that this is a regular occurrence?  Can you describe exactly what happened in the incident you mentioned?

The vast majority of pedestrian/cyclist/motorist altercations that I've seen there is an explanation for behaviour.  It might be a poor explanation (maybe a car didn't want to slow down to let a pedestrian cross at a cross-walk, maybe a cyclist was swerving through masses of people on a sidewalk to go faster, maybe a pedestrian was walking in the bike lane while trying to read messages on his phone) but there is typically a reason for the behaviour.  The truck driver's behaviour doesn't fit into those categories.  I wasn't impeding his ability to go quickly, wasn't blocking his lane, wasn't doing anything at all that would impact his life.  That's quite unusual in my experience.  I've never seen similar behaviour from a cyclist or pedestrian.


In my personal case, I was walking across a signal-controlled crosswalk with a bunch of other people in a crowded city (SF).  I guess the guy had an "explanation" in that he didn't want to wait for the light or dismount his bike.  But that doesn't explain why he shoved people instead of just going around them, except that he was a jerk.  Shoving me probably too more time and effort than just going around, so it wasn't about speed.  Maybe he was just angry that he couldn't do whatever he wanted.  The truck driver could have an equally ridiculous reason: you were impeding his ability to drive in the shoulder.  Your presence was stopping him from doing whatever he wanted to do and it pissed him off.  We can only speculate, but that's why I just prefer to consider both guys jerks.

Is this common here?  I have seen a number of altercations during critical mass.  Most, admittedly, are with vehicles, but that doesn't make pedestrians immune.  It's a bit ironic that critical mass tends not to give a shit about the pedestrians they run roughshod over, given the intent of the movement.  I'm not the only one... here's a quick result I found (https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Critical-Mass-and-pedestrians-3105406.php

Quote
Iím not saying all cyclists are jerks any more than all car drivers are jerks.  But what MAKES car drivers jerks?  Probably the same thing that makes cyclists jerks or pedestrians kick dogs.  The additional power differential enables this jerkers.  I really doubt the cyclist who violently pushed me would have done so if he was on foot and I had a chance to fight back

If you get into an accident with a pedestrian while you're riding your bike, there's a good chance that you'll get hurt.  If you get into an accident with a pedestrian or a bike while driving your car, there's almost no chance that you'll get hurt.  In addition, it's harder for a motorist to be caught for misbehavior.  That's why there are so many hit and run incidents.

If I were to take a stab at it, I suspect that automobile drivers are more often jerks because they know that they are protected by their vehicles.  I've never had another bicycle swerve in front of me and brake check me . . . but I have had automobiles do this (both while on my bike, and while driving).

In addition to this protection, a vehicle is a virtual guarantee of anonymity.  It's hard to see a driver behind the tinted glass in a car.  The driver doesn't need to look their victim in the eye, so it's easier to dehumanize others.  This extends well beyond bikes to the way that vehicles interact with pedestrians and other vehicles too.  It is common to see rude behavior on a highway from people who would never dream of acting in the same way if they were walking on a sidewalk.  I think that this contributes to the more extreme behaviour that is more common from motorists than pedestrians or cyclists.

Sure, car drivers are less vulnerable and therefore feel more empowered.  But does that car really make them a jerk?  I take back what I said earlier, these people are already jerks.  What makes them act like jerks is having more power.


fuzzy math

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2019, 07:48:25 PM »
Sorry that happened to you GuitarStv. My dad was a huge bicyclist and has been hit with water balloons, fast food cups and attempts at whatever else missed him. It's scary. There is a segment of humanity out there who feels it's their reason to harm bicyclists, probably thinking haha they fall off their bike. Hopefully it's pure stupidity that they simply don't realize they could seriously injure or kill someone. I"d really like to believe that isn't the case. Hearing my dad's stories (and especially as a female) I am very particular about where I will ride. A go pro would be a great idea for you to be honest.

I do think the bicyclist story is not really a great correlary because its intent appears to be either to give credence to the trucker, or to downplay the terror of the OP. It's like during black lives matter chants, yelling out all lives matter. It diminishes the original intent, regardless of whether the statement of opposition has any validity.

My high school friend mowed down a toddler on her bicycle on accident, and the kid got up, ran to his parents crying and was fine. I can say with fair certainty that would not have been the outcome for the OP had there been a collision.

GuitarStv

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #48 on: June 27, 2019, 07:15:56 AM »
Quote
I'm sorry that you were bumped in a crosswalk by a cyclist who shouldn't be riding on the sidewalk.  But riding a bicycle on the sidewalk too close to another person is not at all the same as swerving towards and brake checking a cyclist on the road with a truck.  It's not the same in terms of danger, intent, or impact.

Maybe you missed the part where I was more than "bumped."   This was definitely a malicious attack.  I agree that your experience bore a higher risk of death, but that doesn't prove that someone trying to hurt me won't have a similar motive.

It has occurred that perhaps we have a miscommunication here, that is the source of much of our disagreement.

This is the sum total of what I know about what happened to you:
Let me tell you about the time a cyclist pushed me out of the way as I crossed at the crosswalk with a walk sign

I really doubt the cyclist who violently pushed me would have done so if he was on foot and I had a chance to fight back


So what I know, is that you believe  a cyclist pushed you violently.  But what I also know is that a bicycle is a pretty unstable platform.  I'd consider myself a reasonably good bike handler, and would consider it extremely difficult and quite likely to knock me off my own bike if I were to violently push someone.  So, here's what I've been assuming actually happened from your description:

A cyclist was zooming along way too fast to be safe on the sidewalk, tried to squeeze by you, and (for whatever reason, maybe you took a step to one side, maybe he wasn't in control of his bike, maybe he misjudged the space, maybe another pedestrian changed direction and forced him into a different path, whatever) banged his shoulder into you in passing.  This seems pretty likely because it's something that I've very nearly been guilty of (zooming along very quickly on a bike path, coming around a corner into a crowd of pedestrians blocking the whole path in both directions).  This is in fact, why I no longer cycle on segregated designated bike paths.  There are too many pedestrians making it too dangerous to ride a bike at the speed on the bike paths around here.

Based on my assumption, I have figured that what you have been describing is very unlike what happened to me for several reasons:
- You weren't in any real danger of injury (beyond maybe a bruise/scraped knee or scraped palm of the hand.
- Since the cyclist would have lost a lot of speed and momentum after bumping you violently, you had a window of opportunity to fight back.  It's very easy to knock someone on a bike off by kicking at their tires or shoving them.
- While the cyclist was behaving recklessly, he didn't target you for an attack.  He didn't attack you at all, just knocked into you in passing.  What happened sounds like an accident (albeit one that wouldn't have happened if the cyclist wasn't being so idiotic).

Based on all this, it seemed pretty reasonable to say that a cyclist bumping into you is not at all comparable to being purposefully targeted and attacked.  But, my assumptions were obviously wrong.  Why don't you describe what happened, so I can understand your situation better.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Coal rolling. Apparently it's not just an American thing.
« Reply #49 on: June 27, 2019, 11:53:22 AM »
On a recent trip to California of all places, I had someone roll coal at me, I guess because I was driving a compact car.  So me getting a cheap rental apparently opened me up to deserving a cloud of black stuff around it.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 01:51:46 PM by Fomerly known as something »