Don't underestimate our ability to tolerate needless death. High estimates are 500,000 deaths total by the spring. Our country will survive that.
Honestly, I think people will take things more seriously once the rural hospitals start buckling. Right now the midwest is offloading covid patients to regional medical centers, which are starting to rely on non-ICU staff for coverage. Once they are unable to accept transfers, the rural hospitals' small ICUs will be overloaded and mortality will increase dramatically. Then people will open their eyes. We just have to learn the hard way over here.
Even if Biden's taskforce could start immediately, you're still relying on people actually doing it. I've got plenty of neighbors (red state) who think it's a hoax, no big deal, just the flu, etc. Back in March/April, people were worried and complied, but since then - nope. A lot of people will have to die before it has a widespread impact in my area.
Why would Trump impose that sort of control? He had an opportunity to do so in the spring and didn't act on it. He doesn't seem inclined to do it now.
Ummm, it definitely does spread through HVAC systems in some situations. If you live in an apartment and share air with other units, then close your vents and open a window if conditions permit it.
A million soldiers aren't going to fan out across the country checking on mask wear.
Even if Biden's taskforce could start immediately, you're still relying on people actually doing it. I've got plenty of neighbors (red state) who think it's a hoax, no big deal, just the flu, etc. Back in March/April, people were worried and complied, but since then - nope. A lot of people will have to die before it has a widespread impact in my area.
Sometimes I wonder if the right answer would have been to mandate absolutely nothing, let 2-3 million die and be done with it. Sure we would have had to prop up the life insurance industry and get Costco in the coffin business, but that's small potatoes compared to what's going on now.
Of course we'll never know.
Sorry what was the question?
Oh yes, strict lockdowns and martial law. Never gonna happen.
A million soldiers aren't going to fan out across the country checking on mask wear.
I was thinking less about masks and more about confining people to their homes. Yes, with soldiers on the streets.
I honestly can't see a way the USA comes through this intact without a full scale lockdown or a vaccine that works RIGHT NOW. April is far too late.
Yeah but what if we could somehow lure all the chinstrappers to the Outerbanks then blow up the bridges?I honestly can't see a way the USA comes through this intact without a full scale lockdown or a vaccine that works RIGHT NOW. April is far too late.
Comes through this? The morality rate isn’t anywhere near the level necessary to destabilize the US government. You’re starting with an assumption that isn’t supported by data.
With regard to full scale lockdowns and martial law, what the heck kind of country do you think the US is? Troops enforcing a nationwide stay at home order? Restricting constitutional rights without a permissible constitutional basis? All no chance.
None of that is even plausible. Even if someone wanted to and legally could, it’s logistically impossible to enforce a lockdown by military occupation short of using bombs and machine guns. The US is an enormous country and our military really isn’t that huge. Last I checked, we have like 1.3million members of our armed forces but 330 million people over 3.5 million square miles.
Ummm, it definitely does spread through HVAC systems in some situations. If you live in an apartment and share air with other units, then close your vents and open a window if conditions permit it.
I've wondered about this. I've only ever lived in apartments with radiant heat. Do shared HVAC systems generally not have HEPA filtration between units? That just seems nuts to me, for so many reasons, even before COVID.
A million soldiers aren't going to fan out across the country checking on mask wear.
I was thinking less about masks and more about confining people to their homes. Yes, with soldiers on the streets.
How many western democracies have done that?
I honestly can't see a way the USA comes through this intact without a full scale lockdown or a vaccine that works RIGHT NOW. April is far too late.
Comes through this? The morality rate isn’t anywhere near the level necessary to destabilize the US government. You’re starting with an assumption that isn’t supported by data.
With regard to full scale lockdowns and martial law, what the heck kind of country do you think the US is? Troops enforcing a nationwide stay at home order? Restricting constitutional rights without a permissible constitutional basis? All no chance.
None of that is even plausible. Even if someone wanted to and legally could, it’s logistically impossible to enforce a lockdown by military occupation short of using bombs and machine guns. The US is an enormous country and our military really isn’t that huge. Last I checked, we have like 1.3million members of our armed forces but 330 million people over 3.5 million square miles.
Ummm, it definitely does spread through HVAC systems in some situations. If you live in an apartment and share air with other units, then close your vents and open a window if conditions permit it.
I've wondered about this. I've only ever lived in apartments with radiant heat. Do shared HVAC systems generally not have HEPA filtration between units? That just seems nuts to me, for so many reasons, even before COVID.
Back in July we had a "second wave" here in Korea. They traced 50 infections to a single person sitting in a Starbucks for two hours without a mask.
Ummm, it definitely does spread through HVAC systems in some situations. If you live in an apartment and share air with other units, then close your vents and open a window if conditions permit it.
I've wondered about this. I've only ever lived in apartments with radiant heat. Do shared HVAC systems generally not have HEPA filtration between units? That just seems nuts to me, for so many reasons, even before COVID.
Ummm, it definitely does spread through HVAC systems in some situations. If you live in an apartment and share air with other units, then close your vents and open a window if conditions permit it.
I've wondered about this. I've only ever lived in apartments with radiant heat. Do shared HVAC systems generally not have HEPA filtration between units? That just seems nuts to me, for so many reasons, even before COVID.
Lol! What luxury world do you live in? Come down here and check out life with the groundlings. Curry or weed, anyone? I'd have various apt neighbors who apparently can share with you daily. I had a friend who had a sewage backup and couldn't use the apt toilet for more than a week until the landlord got the roots blocking the pipe outside the building cleared . . . I can assure you that there were not HEPA filters anywhere near this county much less building.
You asked specifically what kind of country I thought the US was? I think it's deeply flawed, all freedumb/no responsibility, and it probably needs to dump that ridiculous constitution and start over. The only useful thing you guys have going for you right now is that the real idiots are also far more likely to contract covid. With a bit of luck, a few million deaths will raise the national IQ enough to actually start moving in a more positive direction.
I honestly can't see a way the USA comes through this intact without a full scale lockdown or a vaccine that works RIGHT NOW. April is far too late.
Comes through this? The morality rate isn’t anywhere near the level necessary to destabilize the US government. You’re starting with an assumption that isn’t supported by data.
With regard to full scale lockdowns and martial law, what the heck kind of country do you think the US is? Troops enforcing a nationwide stay at home order? Restricting constitutional rights without a permissible constitutional basis? All no chance.
None of that is even plausible. Even if someone wanted to and legally could, it’s logistically impossible to enforce a lockdown by military occupation short of using bombs and machine guns. The US is an enormous country and our military really isn’t that huge. Last I checked, we have like 1.3million members of our armed forces but 330 million people over 3.5 million square miles.
It's absolutely possible in specific areas. You might have to change your laws or even ignore them for a bit, for the public good. The NZ lockdown wasn't actually legal for the first wee while, did you know that? Obviously, we don't have as many absolute fucking idiots to police, and the ones we do don't have guns. They just kind of whine a lot. No one pays them any attention and/or they get arrested for being absolute fucking idiots.
Meanwhile, you've made quite a few assumptions yourself, one of which is that the only factor here for destabilisation is the death rate. That's not actually how it works. What happens when it's the main income earner in a family that dies? Or when it's the owner of a small business that employs a dozen people? Or when you can no longer get specialist nursing staff because they're all sick or dead? What happens when the person that dies is the president? Or when senior officials are seriously ill? It doesn't take a lot for things to break down to the point of dysfunction. You would think that perhaps the USA might be a little bit more aware of that NOW than they were this time last year...... No? Well, you're about to get another lesson.
You asked specifically what kind of country I thought the US was? I think it's deeply flawed, all freedumb/no responsibility, and it probably needs to dump that ridiculous constitution and start over. The only useful thing you guys have going for you right now is that the real idiots are also far more likely to contract covid. With a bit of luck, a few million deaths will raise the national IQ enough to actually start moving in a more positive direction.
You asked specifically what kind of country I thought the US was? I think it's deeply flawed, all freedumb/no responsibility, and it probably needs to dump that ridiculous constitution and start over. The only useful thing you guys have going for you right now is that the real idiots are also far more likely to contract covid. With a bit of luck, a few million deaths will raise the national IQ enough to actually start moving in a more positive direction.
Military occupation and dumping the constitution is a recipe for full-blown civil war. Your "cure" is worse than the disease, many more people would die in open bloody conflict than COVID, while also making the pandemic exponentially worse. To be blunt, this is the kind of simplistic authoritarian proposal I'd expect from the Trump administration or an extremist right-wing nut.
How many of you have actually had Covid? I did, and so did my wife. Aside from losing our sense of smell for a couple weeks, it was the mildest cold I’ve ever had. I had one day of stuffy nose and feeling run down, I worked all day (out of the house like I’ve done since March) took a nap at 6PM, woke up at 7PM feeling 90% better. That was a Tuesday; by Thursday I felt fine, got tested and received the message yup you had it. Did the quarantine thing for 2 weeks, and back to normal. My wife’s experience mirrored mine. My neighbors next door (couple my age, late 30s) and their kids got it (not from us), same thing. He works construction, he spent his entire quarantine working on his house so clearly he felt fine too. If you’re young and anything close to reasonably healthy (I’m a bit fat and had childhood asthma, I was still fine) it’s a nonevent. My kids tested positive, they never had a single symptom. I know there are exceptions, but for the vast majority of people, that’s how it goes.I'm glad you were one of the lucky ones who got a mild case. I think something like 20% get a more serious case, the most serious cases being fatal.
Putting soldiers in the streets? Are they going to shoot US citizens? Are we suspending Posse Comitatus? Do you want to spark a revolution? That is how you get one.
Look at the real mortality, look at the demographics of those who are dying in real numbers (protect them) and remember what web site you are on, one that is supposed to react to numbers not emotions.
How many of you have actually had Covid? I did, and so did my wife. Aside from losing our sense of smell for a couple weeks, it was the mildest cold I’ve ever had. I had one day of stuffy nose and feeling run down, I worked all day (out of the house like I’ve done since March) took a nap at 6PM, woke up at 7PM feeling 90% better. That was a Tuesday; by Thursday I felt fine, got tested and received the message yup you had it. Did the quarantine thing for 2 weeks, and back to normal. My wife’s experience mirrored mine. My neighbors next door (couple my age, late 30s) and their kids got it (not from us), same thing. He works construction, he spent his entire quarantine working on his house so clearly he felt fine too. If you’re young and anything close to reasonably healthy (I’m a bit fat and had childhood asthma, I was still fine) it’s a nonevent. My kids tested positive, they never had a single symptom. I know there are exceptions, but for the vast majority of people, that’s how it goes.
Putting soldiers in the streets? Are they going to shoot US citizens? Are we suspending Posse Comitatus? Do you want to spark a revolution? That is how you get one.
Look at the real mortality, look at the demographics of those who are dying in real numbers (protect them) and remember what web site you are on, one that is supposed to react to numbers not emotions.
Comes through this? The morality rate isn’t anywhere near the level necessary to destabilize the US government. You’re starting with an assumption that isn’t supported by data.[emphasis mine]
stymied by autocorrect!Comes through this? The morality rate isn’t anywhere near the level necessary to destabilize the US government. You’re starting with an assumption that isn’t supported by data.[emphasis mine]
How deliciously Freudian
ITT: “your Constitution is old and outdated” (I can read between the lines, you mean the 2A
Also ITT: “you should use soldiers to lock people down in their homes!”
The irony is rich and delicious, more so because I’m sure people don’t see it that way.
But yea, that’s exactly why we have a Constitution and those rights.
By Christmas? With Trump in the White House? Psh. He couldn’t be bothered, even if it was a plague killing ten times as many people.I agree, at this point, he's no longer even making a pretense of caring about the country or his official duties, even to the limited degree that he did before the election.
By Christmas? With Trump in the White House? Psh. He couldn’t be bothered, even if it was a plague killing ten times as many people.I agree, at this point, he's no longer even making a pretense of caring about the country or his official duties, even to the limited degree that he did before the election.
What seems more plausible is that he uses COVID as an excuse to quell any unrest as he desperately clings to power. If his supporters' efforts succeed in pushing us towards a constitutional crisis, I think we'd start to see some popular protests, etc., and at some point he might decide to declare public protests illegal "because COVID". A full-fledged national lockdown would only be an option of last resort, since he needs to keep his covidiot base happy; more likely, you'd see him attempt to impose martial law in specific cities/states, with only thinly veiled political motives in the choice of locations.
By Christmas? With Trump in the White House? Psh. He couldn’t be bothered, even if it was a plague killing ten times as many people.I agree, at this point, he's no longer even making a pretense of caring about the country or his official duties, even to the limited degree that he did before the election.
What seems more plausible is that he uses COVID as an excuse to quell any unrest as he desperately clings to power. If his supporters' efforts succeed in pushing us towards a constitutional crisis, I think we'd start to see some popular protests, etc., and at some point he might decide to declare public protests illegal "because COVID". A full-fledged national lockdown would only be an option of last resort, since he needs to keep his covidiot base happy; more likely, you'd see him attempt to impose martial law in specific cities/states, with only thinly veiled political motives in the choice of locations.
ITT: “your Constitution is old and outdated” (I can read between the lines, you mean the 2A
Also ITT: “you should use soldiers to lock people down in their homes!”
The irony is rich and delicious, more so because I’m sure people don’t see it that way.
But yea, that’s exactly why we have a Constitution and those rights.
There are plenty of places without the insane lack of gun laws enjoyed in the US. Yet the only country that I'm aware of which has used soldiers to lock down citizens has been China. It's almost like gun rights have nothing to do with the situation.
Furthermore, throughout the year US government forces have been illegally suppressing peaceful protests (enshrined in the US constitution). Weak gun regulation hasn't helped to fix the situation at all. It's almost like the whole idea of 'fighting off the tyrannical government with my small arms collection' is fundamentally flawed and unworkable in reality.
I honestly can't see a way the USA comes through this intact without a full scale lockdown or a vaccine that works RIGHT NOW. April is far too late.
ITT: “your Constitution is old and outdated” (I can read between the lines, you mean the 2A
Also ITT: “you should use soldiers to lock people down in their homes!”
The irony is rich and delicious, more so because I’m sure people don’t see it that way.
But yea, that’s exactly why we have a Constitution and those rights.
There are plenty of places without the insane lack of gun laws enjoyed in the US. Yet the only country that I'm aware of which has used soldiers to lock down citizens has been China. It's almost like gun rights have nothing to do with the situation.
Furthermore, throughout the year US government forces have been illegally suppressing peaceful protests (enshrined in the US constitution). Weak gun regulation hasn't helped to fix the situation at all. It's almost like the whole idea of 'fighting off the tyrannical government with my small arms collection' is fundamentally flawed and unworkable in reality.
Ummmm, you must be from somewhere else. What illegal suppression of peaceful protests are you talking about?
ITT: “your Constitution is old and outdated” (I can read between the lines, you mean the 2A
Also ITT: “you should use soldiers to lock people down in their homes!”
The irony is rich and delicious, more so because I’m sure people don’t see it that way.
But yea, that’s exactly why we have a Constitution and those rights.
There are plenty of places without the insane lack of gun laws enjoyed in the US. Yet the only country that I'm aware of which has used soldiers to lock down citizens has been China. It's almost like gun rights have nothing to do with the situation.
Furthermore, throughout the year US government forces have been illegally suppressing peaceful protests (enshrined in the US constitution). Weak gun regulation hasn't helped to fix the situation at all. It's almost like the whole idea of 'fighting off the tyrannical government with my small arms collection' is fundamentally flawed and unworkable in reality.
Ummmm, you must be from somewhere else. What illegal suppression of peaceful protests are you talking about?
I mean he did stop those protestors from peacefully burning down that federal courthouse in Seattle...
Even if Biden's taskforce could start immediately, you're still relying on people actually doing it. I've got plenty of neighbors (red state) who think it's a hoax, no big deal, just the flu, etc. Back in March/April, people were worried and complied, but since then - nope. A lot of people will have to die before it has a widespread impact in my area.
Another sister told me that Biden was going to require every citizen to don a mask from the moment they step outside their doors. (Guess who she voted for?) You know what? If that's what it takes, I'm all for it. However, a thorough Goog showed no evidence of such a proposal at this time. Yeesh!
I am willing to do whatever it takes.
I honestly can't see a way the USA comes through this intact without a full scale lockdown or a vaccine that works RIGHT NOW. April is far too late.
Under the Tenth Amendment (federalism) each governor has the police power to order a statewide lockdown to promote the citizens' health, safety, and welfare.
What's problematic is that a lockdown is unenforceable for lack of authorized enforcement personnel.
There are nowhere near enough of them to keep ~330,000,000 people in compliance with a lockdown.
You asked specifically what kind of country I thought the US was? I think it's deeply flawed, all freedumb/no responsibility, and it probably needs to dump that ridiculous constitution and start over.
Between State Police and National Guard you could do it. Italy and the UK don't have more resources than the USA, they were just more willing to use them.
But you couldn't have a national mandate with national enforcement, because the use of the US military to police civilians in peacetime is generally considered to be both illegal and in very bad taste by both sides of the political divide.
EDITed to add - you could maybe use national authority to mobilize states national guards. The war powers act as written might allow that, but it would not go over well with the governors.
But you couldn't have a national mandate with national enforcement, because the use of the US military to police civilians in peacetime is generally considered to be both illegal and in very bad taste by both sides of the political divide.
Between State Police and National Guard you could do it. Italy and the UK don't have more resources than the USA, they were just more willing to use them.
But you couldn't have a national mandate with national enforcement, because the use of the US military to police civilians in peacetime is generally considered to be both illegal and in very bad taste by both sides of the political divide.
EDITed to add - you could maybe use national authority to mobilize states national guards. The war powers act as written might allow that, but it would not go over well with the governors.
There are 800,000 police in the USA (about one for every 400 people). The national guard only adds another 450,000 people (and about 1/3 of those are in the air national guard).
Italy actually does have about twice as many police as the USA (one for every 200 people), although the UK is much more similar to us here in the USA with one cop for every 450 people. However, I think the big difference is that in Italy and the UK most of the population bought into the need for the lockdown. An external imposed lockdown enforced primarily by martial law (what AnnaGrowsAMustache is proposing) rather that population buy in with police enforcement for a small number of people who don't go along with it is a very different thing indeed.
Sometimes I wonder if the right answer would have been to mandate absolutely nothing, let 2-3 million die and be done with it. Sure we would have had to prop up the life insurance industry and get Costco in the coffin business, but that's small potatoes compared to what's going on now.What a macabre comment.
Of course we'll never know.
Sorry what was the question?
Oh yes, strict lockdowns and martial law. Never gonna happen.
In the hypothetical event of a national mask mandate issuing from a president, would all authorized enforcement personnel enforce it?
I think many would not.
A sheriff in charge of a remote county in Wyoming has an entirely different relationship with people in his/her jurisdiction than the sheriff of Los Angeles County has with people there.
However, I think the big difference is that in Italy and the UK most of the population bought into the need for the lockdown. An external imposed lockdown enforced primarily by martial law (what AnnaGrowsAMustache is proposing) rather that population buy in with police enforcement for a small number of people who don't go along with it is a very different thing indeed.
For people living outside the USA it may be hard to appreciate just how different law enforcement is here. The vast majority of police are part of city or county forces which report to mayors or county supervisors. I don't know that there is even any mechanism for the federal government to reach down, through the state governments, through the local governments into the police forces.
However, I think the big difference is that in Italy and the UK most of the population bought into the need for the lockdown. An external imposed lockdown enforced primarily by martial law (what AnnaGrowsAMustache is proposing) rather that population buy in with police enforcement for a small number of people who don't go along with it is a very different thing indeed.
Penalties in Italy were steep and police were actually on the street from the beginning enforcing them. I disagree that police enforcement wasn't a huge component to their compliance. The UK was similar with police on the streets actually enforcing the lockdown although I believe that the penalties were less severe.
However, I think the big difference is that in Italy and the UK most of the population bought into the need for the lockdown. An external imposed lockdown enforced primarily by martial law (what AnnaGrowsAMustache is proposing) rather that population buy in with police enforcement for a small number of people who don't go along with it is a very different thing indeed.
Penalties in Italy were steep and police were actually on the street from the beginning enforcing them. I disagree that police enforcement wasn't a huge component to their compliance. The UK was similar with police on the streets actually enforcing the lockdown although I believe that the penalties were less severe.
I think you may be disagreeing with something I'm not actually saying (or at least wasn't intending to say). I'm not saying the police weren't active in the UK and Italy or that they didn't pay an important role in enforcing the lockdowns. I'm saying that general buy in from the population meant that the number of people the police needed to arrest/ticket/etc in those countries was manageable, even with only one police officer per 200 or 450 people.
Don't underestimate our ability to tolerate needless death. High estimates are 500,000 deaths total by the spring. Our country will survive that.
Honestly, I think people will take things more seriously once the rural hospitals start buckling. Right now the midwest is offloading covid patients to regional medical centers, which are starting to rely on non-ICU staff for coverage. Once they are unable to accept transfers, the rural hospitals' small ICUs will be overloaded and mortality will increase dramatically. Then people will open their eyes. We just have to learn the hard way over here.
Of note - any physicians with ICU experience looking for locums work, I got an email asking for COVID coverage in IL and CA. Can forward if requested.
Don't underestimate our ability to tolerate needless death. High estimates are 500,000 deaths total by the spring. Our country will survive that.
Honestly, I think people will take things more seriously once the rural hospitals start buckling. Right now the midwest is offloading covid patients to regional medical centers, which are starting to rely on non-ICU staff for coverage. Once they are unable to accept transfers, the rural hospitals' small ICUs will be overloaded and mortality will increase dramatically. Then people will open their eyes. We just have to learn the hard way over here.
Of note - any physicians with ICU experience looking for locums work, I got an email asking for COVID coverage in IL and CA. Can forward if requested.
Sadly, I think you are giving a certain segment of the population far too much credit. There is literally nothing that would convince them that COVID is serious business.
If ALL of the hair salons and restaurants and gyms and malls shut down again for a month, and everyone really did just stay home, then perhaps we could make it to a vaccine in April-June without an absolute explosion in the numbers of dead people? But people aren't going to comply and I don't see how the economy can handle that without another stimulus bill . . . most people in the US just don't have any money saved.
I'm glad some of you haven't gotten very sick when you had it. It's completely false to then surmise that it is no big deal. Your logic is totally faulty. You were just lucky, so thank your good luck.
If we can agree that the death rate in the US is 2-3%, which it is (https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html, then every day that is passing this month we are going to have 3000 or more who catch it who will go on to die . . . every single day in the US
I honestly can't see a way the USA comes through this intact without a full scale lockdown or a vaccine that works RIGHT NOW. April is far too late.
Comes through this? The morality rate isn’t anywhere near the level necessary to destabilize the US government. You’re starting with an assumption that isn’t supported by data.
With regard to full scale lockdowns and martial law, what the heck kind of country do you think the US is? Troops enforcing a nationwide stay at home order? Restricting constitutional rights without a permissible constitutional basis? All no chance.
None of that is even plausible. Even if someone wanted to and legally could, it’s logistically impossible to enforce a lockdown by military occupation short of using bombs and machine guns. The US is an enormous country and our military really isn’t that huge. Last I checked, we have like 1.3million members of our armed forces but 330 million people over 3.5 million square miles.
It's absolutely possible in specific areas. You might have to change your laws or even ignore them for a bit, for the public good. The NZ lockdown wasn't actually legal for the first wee while, did you know that? Obviously, we don't have as many absolute fucking idiots to police, and the ones we do don't have guns. They just kind of whine a lot. No one pays them any attention and/or they get arrested for being absolute fucking idiots.
Meanwhile, you've made quite a few assumptions yourself, one of which is that the only factor here for destabilisation is the death rate. That's not actually how it works. What happens when it's the main income earner in a family that dies? Or when it's the owner of a small business that employs a dozen people? Or when you can no longer get specialist nursing staff because they're all sick or dead? What happens when the person that dies is the president? Or when senior officials are seriously ill? It doesn't take a lot for things to break down to the point of dysfunction. You would think that perhaps the USA might be a little bit more aware of that NOW than they were this time last year...... No? Well, you're about to get another lesson.
You asked specifically what kind of country I thought the US was? I think it's deeply flawed, all freedumb/no responsibility, and it probably needs to dump that ridiculous constitution and start over. The only useful thing you guys have going for you right now is that the real idiots are also far more likely to contract covid. With a bit of luck, a few million deaths will raise the national IQ enough to actually start moving in a more positive direction.
We’re doing pretty well in the grand scheme of things. COVID isn’t going to fundamentally change America.
ITT: “your Constitution is old and outdated” (I can read between the lines, you mean the 2A
Also ITT: “you should use soldiers to lock people down in their homes!”
The irony is rich and delicious, more so because I’m sure people don’t see it that way.
But yea, that’s exactly why we have a Constitution and those rights.
There are plenty of places without the insane lack of gun laws enjoyed in the US. Yet the only country that I'm aware of which has used soldiers to lock down citizens has been China. It's almost like gun rights have nothing to do with the situation.
Furthermore, throughout the year US government forces have been illegally suppressing peaceful protests (enshrined in the US constitution). Weak gun regulation hasn't helped to fix the situation at all. It's almost like the whole idea of 'fighting off the tyrannical government with my small arms collection' is fundamentally flawed and unworkable in reality.
You asked specifically what kind of country I thought the US was? I think it's deeply flawed, all freedumb/no responsibility, and it probably needs to dump that ridiculous constitution and start over.
In the words of Justice Scalia: "It's game over" if a concentration of power ever obtains here.
America's constitutional, tripartite scheme of three coequal branches that check and balance each other serves as a preventative against concentrations of power inimical to our liberties.
AnnaGrowsAMustache, if you lived in America would you want President Trump (or any president) to have powers not subject to constitutional limitations?
We Americans would not tolerate such an unthinkable repugnance.
Judge Learned Hand said "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it."
In America, I trust that our undying love for our liberties and resolute insistence that they be ever preserved precludes any national decision to "dump that ridiculous constitution and start over."
Long live our American Constitution, the superior charter that guarantees our liberties.
I pity you. You're heading into a nightmare with absolutely no mental preparation. I'm very sorry for you.
With a bit of luck, a few million deaths will raise the national IQ enough to actually start moving in a more positive direction.
You asked specifically what kind of country I thought the US was? I think it's deeply flawed, all freedumb/no responsibility, and it probably needs to dump that ridiculous constitution and start over.
In the words of Justice Scalia: "It's game over" if a concentration of power ever obtains here.
America's constitutional, tripartite scheme of three coequal branches that check and balance each other serves as a preventative against concentrations of power inimical to our liberties.
AnnaGrowsAMustache, if you lived in America would you want President Trump (or any president) to have powers not subject to constitutional limitations?
We Americans would not tolerate such an unthinkable repugnance.
Judge Learned Hand said "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it."
In America, I trust that our undying love for our liberties and resolute insistence that they be ever preserved precludes any national decision to "dump that ridiculous constitution and start over."
Long live our American Constitution, the superior charter that guarantees our liberties.
Dude, your liberties are completely dependent on other people playing the game. Not a document.
You are correct about "other people playing the game." Ordered liberty depends on it.
One of the Framers said “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people." The secular version of this assertion is that liberty flourishes when the people abide by the law. When people do misbehave (don't play "the game") and violate the law eventually there will be a reaction and calls for corrective, restrictive legislation as has happened in the case of gun violence.
Currently your personal freedoms are being restricted by a minority of people who refuse to stay home and wear a mask.
I have never questioned the legitimacy of any entity that, pursuant to its police power, orders masking, limits the size of gatherings, etc. Since the onset of the pandemic I have never agreed with or supported anyone who flouts any legitimate exercise of the police power. And I've always worn a mask when in public even though there was no order to do so.
I have posted about abusive exercise of the police power as happened when a preacher told his congregants to drive their vehicles to the church's parking lot and keep their windows closed while they listened to the preacher's broadcast on their vehicle's radio.
In this case the police came to the parking lot and each congregant was issued a $500 fine. That was an unconstitutional overreach, a clear-cut abuse of the police power in violation of the First Amendment's Free Exercise Clause.
I remember, months ago, how upset you were about "your rights."
If you reread my response you will see that I said "The federal government and the States, as well as the States' political subdivisions, do have extra latitude in the exercise of their existing power in times of extraordinary emergency, exercises of power that permissibly result in atypically restrictive regulations, orders, local ordinances, etc.
However, "Emergency does not create [extraconstitutional] power."
author=AnnaGrowsAMustache .
Your nation is on fire. Your federal government has emergency powers. Someone take some frickin responsibility for actually solving the issue at hand ie you're all going to die of a virus inside a month, and stop blathering on about your rights. Your rights mean fuck all if you're dead. Idiots. Honestly!
The Framers endeavored to design a country of enduring, maximum liberty.
The Framers' dread of a concentration of power is the overarching reason they formed a tripartite, checks-and-balances national government.
And in keeping with their commitment to dispersion of power they granted each State its own sovereignty under the Tenth Amendment's principle of federalism.
The result is an America comprised of 51 sovereign powers, the federal government plus the 50 States.
The federal government and the States, as well as the States' political subdivisions, do have extra latitude in the exercise of their existing power in times of extraordinary emergency, exercises of power that permissibly result in atypically restrictive regulations, orders, local ordinances, etc.
However, "Emergency does not create [extraconstitutional] power."
Federal power, State power, and the power of political subdivisions "are not altered by emergency."
Untrammeled power is repugnant to the Constitution's undergirding principle of dispersion of power.
Home Building & Loan Assn. v. Blaisdell 1934
Emergency does not create power.
Emergency does not increase granted power or remove or diminish the restrictions imposed upon power granted or reserved.
The Constitution was adopted in a period of grave emergency.
Its grants of power to the Federal Government and its limitations of the power of the States were determined in the light of emergency, and they are not altered by emergency.
What power was thus granted and what limitations were thus imposed are questions which have always been, and always will be, the subject of close examination under our constitutional system.
Thanks for the societal and constitutional diagnosis, Nurse Anna from New Zealand.
Were you actually looking for answers to your original question or merely trying to offer your opinion as to what a country you don’t live in should be doing?
I pity you. You're heading into a nightmare with absolutely no mental preparation. I'm very sorry for you.With a bit of luck, a few million deaths will raise the national IQ enough to actually start moving in a more positive direction.
New Zealand had a total of onlyfourfourty cases of coronavirus per 100,000 residents since the start of the pandemic. My county alone is at four thousand cases per 100,000 residents and counting.
So forgive me if I am Not. Particularly. Interested. in your views of what a nightmare is or isn't or how you think my country would be better off if millions of us died.
I pity you. You're heading into a nightmare with absolutely no mental preparation. I'm very sorry for you.With a bit of luck, a few million deaths will raise the national IQ enough to actually start moving in a more positive direction.
New Zealand had a total of onlyfourfourty cases of coronavirus per 100,000 residents since the start of the pandemic. My county alone is at four thousand cases per 100,000 residents and counting.
So forgive me if I am Not. Particularly. Interested. in your views of what a nightmare is or isn't or how you think my country would be better off if millions of us died.
I agree. Wishing COVID death on millions of people because of their politics is one of the most bigoted comments I've seen around here. Thank $DIETY we have a written constitution that keeps such petty tyrants [mostly] in check.
@AnnaGrowsAMustache In light of such comments, your original post expressing concern for the well-being of the USA seems rather insincere. Please spare us your crocodile tears and enlighten us, what's your real motivation for this thread? Just to spew hate? Trolling? Needing a sense of superiority?
I pity you. You're heading into a nightmare with absolutely no mental preparation. I'm very sorry for you.With a bit of luck, a few million deaths will raise the national IQ enough to actually start moving in a more positive direction.
New Zealand had a total of onlyfourfourty cases of coronavirus per 100,000 residents since the start of the pandemic. My county alone is at four thousand cases per 100,000 residents and counting.
So forgive me if I am Not. Particularly. Interested. in your views of what a nightmare is or isn't or how you think my country would be better off if millions of us died.
Thanks for the societal and constitutional diagnosis, Nurse Anna from New Zealand.
Were you actually looking for answers to your original question or merely trying to offer your opinion as to what a country you don’t live in should be doing?
I pity you. You're heading into a nightmare with absolutely no mental preparation. I'm very sorry for you.With a bit of luck, a few million deaths will raise the national IQ enough to actually start moving in a more positive direction.
New Zealand had a total of onlyfourfourty cases of coronavirus per 100,000 residents since the start of the pandemic. My county alone is at four thousand cases per 100,000 residents and counting.
So forgive me if I am Not. Particularly. Interested. in your views of what a nightmare is or isn't or how you think my country would be better off if millions of us died.
I agree. Wishing COVID death on millions of people because of their politics is one of the most bigoted comments I've seen around here. Thank $DIETY we have a written constitution that keeps such petty tyrants [mostly] in check.
@AnnaGrowsAMustache In light of such comments, your original post expressing concern for the well-being of the USA seems rather insincere. Please spare us your crocodile tears and enlighten us, what's your real motivation for this thread? Just to spew hate? Trolling? Needing a sense of superiority?
I didn't wish death on millions. Millions will die anyway. That might work in your favour given who they are likely to be. By all means, bitch and moan about a misinterpreted post while acting in a way that WILL end up with millions dead.
I pity you. You're heading into a nightmare with absolutely no mental preparation. I'm very sorry for you.With a bit of luck, a few million deaths will raise the national IQ enough to actually start moving in a more positive direction.
New Zealand had a total of onlyfourfourty cases of coronavirus per 100,000 residents since the start of the pandemic. My county alone is at four thousand cases per 100,000 residents and counting.
So forgive me if I am Not. Particularly. Interested. in your views of what a nightmare is or isn't or how you think my country would be better off if millions of us died.
I agree. Wishing COVID death on millions of people because of their politics is one of the most bigoted comments I've seen around here. Thank $DIETY we have a written constitution that keeps such petty tyrants [mostly] in check.
@AnnaGrowsAMustache In light of such comments, your original post expressing concern for the well-being of the USA seems rather insincere. Please spare us your crocodile tears and enlighten us, what's your real motivation for this thread? Just to spew hate? Trolling? Needing a sense of superiority?
I didn't wish death on millions. Millions will die anyway. That might work in your favour given who they are likely to be. By all means, bitch and moan about a misinterpreted post while acting in a way that WILL end up with millions dead.
So please tell us, then, what is this "bit of luck" you're hoping for then? Do you consider it lucky if the right kind of people, by your definition, die from COVID? Who made you master of the universe that you get to decide who's worthy of life? Honestly, I'm struggling to interpret this another way, so help me out.
Sometimes I wonder if the right answer would have been to mandate absolutely nothing, let 2-3 million die and be done with it. Sure we would have had to prop up the life insurance industry and get Costco in the coffin business, but that's small potatoes compared to what's going on now.
I pity you. You're heading into a nightmare with absolutely no mental preparation. I'm very sorry for you.With a bit of luck, a few million deaths will raise the national IQ enough to actually start moving in a more positive direction.
New Zealand had a total of onlyfourfourty cases of coronavirus per 100,000 residents since the start of the pandemic. My county alone is at four thousand cases per 100,000 residents and counting.
So forgive me if I am Not. Particularly. Interested. in your views of what a nightmare is or isn't or how you think my country would be better off if millions of us died.
WHY. DO. YOU. THINK. THAT. IS?????
COULD IT POSSIBLY BE BECAUSE WE HAD A LOCKDOWN BEFORE IT WAS TOO LATE? ONE THAT WAS ILLEGAL AT THE TIME, IE AGAINST OUR LAWS BUT IN THE PUBLIC GOOD??
I pity you. You're heading into a nightmare with absolutely no mental preparation. I'm very sorry for you.With a bit of luck, a few million deaths will raise the national IQ enough to actually start moving in a more positive direction.
New Zealand had a total of onlyfourfourty cases of coronavirus per 100,000 residents since the start of the pandemic. My county alone is at four thousand cases per 100,000 residents and counting.
So forgive me if I am Not. Particularly. Interested. in your views of what a nightmare is or isn't or how you think my country would be better off if millions of us died.
WHY. DO. YOU. THINK. THAT. IS?????
COULD IT POSSIBLY BE BECAUSE WE HAD A LOCKDOWN BEFORE IT WAS TOO LATE? ONE THAT WAS ILLEGAL AT THE TIME, IE AGAINST OUR LAWS BUT IN THE PUBLIC GOOD??
Honestly, Americans can't come up with a plan on their own, they won't listen to science, they won't listen to people who have done the work and got a result. I give up.
I'm done. And so are you lot, which is kind of funny in an ironic way. Thread closed.
I think it's pretty clear by now that OP was only interested in getting "lol USA is fucked amirite" answers.
Uh, that was exactly my point. It is scary the disinformation the Biden haters are spreading and really, truly believe.
Another sister told me that Biden was going to require every citizen to don a mask from the moment they step outside their doors. (Guess who she voted for?) You know what? If that's what it takes, I'm all for it. However, a thorough Goog showed no evidence of such a proposal at this time. Yeesh!
I am willing to do whatever it takes.
Your sister is misinformed.
There is no federal police power or specific, presidential power akin to the States' police power so no president can order nationwide masking.
We can be sure that every day Biden and his transition team are using back channels to organize and coordinate the resources of federal and state agencies to do battle against COVID-19.
Yep, whenever I see one of OP's posts (here or on any other thread), I always wonder, "Why is she so angry all the time?"
I am not an American, I am based outside the US, and I do believe the US got a lot of things wrong with its COVID response.
I am also amazed by New Zealand's response to the crisis and wish more countries, including my own, would do the same.
But a "Serves you right and now millions of people are going to die because Americans are so stupid" attitude does not help anybody.
I'd like to know what the people on this thread going on about freedom suggest happens now? If you're not willing to set aside those "freedoms" for half a dozen weeks, in order to save a million or more lives.... what do you suggest be done?
I'd like to know what the people on this thread going on about freedom suggest happens now? If you're not willing to set aside those "freedoms" for half a dozen weeks, in order to save a million or more lives.... what do you suggest be done?
The thing I don't think americans, specifically, understand about freedom is that you don't have it.
ETA: I'm sincerely happy things have gone much better for the folks in NZ. I'll gladly cheer for any victory, however small.
I always find it fascinating how so many non-Americans that post here get so invested in American politics. Why are you so invested in the policies and domestic ongoings of a nation where you don't live? Why the vitriol? There have to be numerous better ways to invest your time and energy right?
Yep, whenever I see one of OP's posts (here or on any other thread), I always wonder, "Why is she so angry all the time?"
I am not an American, I am based outside the US, and I do believe the US got a lot of things wrong with its COVID response.
I am also amazed by New Zealand's response to the crisis and wish more countries, including my own, would do the same.
But a "Serves you right and now millions of people are going to die because Americans are so stupid" attitude does not help anybody.
Exactly. OP clearly loathes at least a lot about America if not America as a whole, and anytime a conversation about America comes up, OP is extremely angry, argumentative, etc. It seems to have lead to poor posts like this one, where even if OP didn't mean to say what they said in the way they said it, they were apparently so angry that they still did and have essentially doubled down on it...
Overwhelmingly since the United States was founded, the military has no domestic control. In almost all cases, when the national guard is deployed it is at the request of local/state governments.
I'm willing to give OP the benefit of the doubt and accept that maybe she just phrased things in an extremely terrible way w.r.t. millions of deaths. Certainly I've put my foot in my mouth on more than one occasion.
I'm willing to give OP the benefit of the doubt and accept that maybe she just phrased things in an extremely terrible way w.r.t. millions of deaths. Certainly I've put my foot in my mouth on more than one occasion.
I too give the OP the benefit of the doubt.
I (as do others) understand that from time to time discussions of controversial subject matter lead to intemperate statements by impassioned or disputatious posters.
I always find it fascinating how so many non-Americans that post here get so invested in American politics. Why are you so invested in the policies and domestic ongoings of a nation where you don't live?
I'm willing to give OP the benefit of the doubt and accept that maybe she just phrased things in an extremely terrible way w.r.t. millions of deaths. Certainly I've put my foot in my mouth on more than one occasion.
I too give the OP the benefit of the doubt.
I (as do others) understand that from time to time discussions of controversial subject matter lead to intemperate statements by impassioned or disputatious posters.
The poster is a friend and is genuinely concerned. I agree both that she deserves the benefit of the doubt and that the phrasing was not helpful.
I always find it fascinating how so many non-Americans that post here get so invested in American politics. Why are you so invested in the policies and domestic ongoings of a nation where you don't live?
What puzzles me is the constancy of some of the foreign Mu$tachian$' focus on American politics.
...
What puzzles me is the constancy of some of the foreign Mu$tachian$' focus on American politics.
...
What puzzles me is the constancy of some of the foreign Mu$tachian$' focus on American politics.
What people in major power states (as in countries) sometimes don't seem to get is how outsized the influence can be from their countries' policies and market moves. And that citizens of affected nations can actually hold (more than) two things in their heads, both the great powers' moves / changes, plus their own domestic politics and myriad other world regions' and countries' actions shift their dynamic.
That doesn't explain all of it. Germans know a hell of a lot more about US politics than French politics, even though they are literally next door to each other and enormous trading takes place between the two....
What puzzles me is the constancy of some of the foreign Mu$tachian$' focus on American politics.
What people in major power states (as in countries) sometimes don't seem to get is how outsized the influence can be from their countries' policies and market moves. And that citizens of affected nations can actually hold (more than) two things in their heads, both the great powers' moves / changes, plus their own domestic politics and myriad other world regions' and countries' actions shift their dynamic.
Makes sense.That doesn't explain all of it. Germans know a hell of a lot more about US politics than French politics, even though they are literally next door to each other and enormous trading takes place between the two....
What puzzles me is the constancy of some of the foreign Mu$tachian$' focus on American politics.
What people in major power states (as in countries) sometimes don't seem to get is how outsized the influence can be from their countries' policies and market moves. And that citizens of affected nations can actually hold (more than) two things in their heads, both the great powers' moves / changes, plus their own domestic politics and myriad other world regions' and countries' actions shift their dynamic.
The reality is that the US still wields unmatched soft power over the West, so people tune in and watch.
I'm willing to give OP the benefit of the doubt and accept that maybe she just phrased things in an extremely terrible way w.r.t. millions of deaths. Certainly I've put my foot in my mouth on more than one occasion.
I too give the OP the benefit of the doubt.
I (as do others) understand that from time to time discussions of controversial subject matter lead to intemperate statements by impassioned or disputatious posters.
The poster is a friend and is genuinely concerned. I agree both that she deserves the benefit of the doubt and that the phrasing was not helpful.
I always find it fascinating how so many non-Americans that post here get so invested in American politics. Why are you so invested in the policies and domestic ongoings of a nation where you don't live? Why the vitriol? There have to be numerous better ways to invest your time and energy right?
Why do I care about what happens in the US? Because what the US does affects my country (Canada). The newest metaphor floating around is that we live in the apartment above a meth lab. I'm looking forward to that one dying. But it doesn't change the fact that what the US does affects lots of people in other countries. So yes, we pay attention.
I don’t think millions are going to die, but given the demographics of who does die, I surely do not believe that the right wing is highly motivated to prevent that.
I don’t think millions are going to die, but given the demographics of who does die, I surely do not believe that the right wing is highly motivated to prevent that.
Rural residents have more comorbidities than urban residents and older people die more too. If the GOP had any sense they would be on this, its their voters who are dying the fastest.
I don’t think millions are going to die, but given the demographics of who does die, I surely do not believe that the right wing is highly motivated to prevent that.
Rural residents have more comorbidities than urban residents and older people die more too. If the GOP had any sense they would be on this, its their voters who are dying the fastest.
They finally seem to be figuring out now that this wave is hitting them hardest, as indicated by the mask mandates in ND and recent remarks by the governor of WY. They didn’t give much of a shit last spring when heavily Democrat areas like NYC and Detroit were getting crushed.
Rural residents have more comorbidities than urban residents and older people die more too. If the GOP had any sense they would be on this, its their voters who are dying the fastest.
Rural residents have more comorbidities than urban residents and older people die more too. If the GOP had any sense they would be on this, its their voters who are dying the fastest.
Are you sure? I had a quick look over the top 10 highest death states listed here:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
(https://i.imgur.com/VDqevz2.png)
I'm no mathematician but it's the most populous states which have the most COVID deaths, and the most populous states tend to lean Biden.
COVID doesn't care about politics. It cares about density...
Why do people outside of the United States think that our "covid response" is so terrible? From what I can see from the data, we have about half the deaths per capita per day of the UK and a third of Italy.
Never going to happen, the Trump administration wants everything open and will not go into a shutdown much less a martial law lockdown.Even if Biden's taskforce could start immediately, you're still relying on people actually doing it. I've got plenty of neighbors (red state) who think it's a hoax, no big deal, just the flu, etc. Back in March/April, people were worried and complied, but since then - nope. A lot of people will have to die before it has a widespread impact in my area.
It's not about leaving it up to people's own ideas anymore. I'm talking a full, martial law enforced lockdown. People confined to their homes and streets patrolled by the military. Before everyone gets all nuts about it, it would only have to be for 3 or 4 weeks.
Yeah I don't think we should compare ourselves to small island nations, Europe and China seem like better comparisons. Europe as a whole, it seems we're doing better, we flattened the curve better than they seemed to do initially, and our second wave doesn't seem to be shaping to be nearly as sharp. As far as China, a) I don't believe any of their numbers and b) I'd rather die than be forced to live in such an authoritarian system.Why do people outside of the United States think that our "covid response" is so terrible? From what I can see from the data, we have about half the deaths per capita per day of the UK and a third of Italy.
Because those aren't the only other countries on the planet? Ignoring microstates, the 10 worst countries for total deaths per population right now are:
1. Belgium
2. Peru
3. Spain
4. Argentina
5. Brazil
6. Chile
7. UK
8. Mexico
9. Bolivia
10. Equidor
Data from NYT (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/world/coronavirus-maps.html).
You think that the USA should think that it's doing alright because it is number 12? Or should we be comparing ourselves to Singapore, Hong Kong, South Korea, Vietnam, New Zealand, and Taiwan? Because the USA has an order of magnitude (or two) more deaths than those countries. People in New Zealand (the OP) aren't going to compare us to the bottom of the barrel. They are going to compare us to the best, as they should.
Yeah I don't think we should compare ourselves to small island nations, Europe and China seem like better comparisons. Europe as a whole, it seems we're doing better, we flattened the curve better than they seemed to do initially, and our second wave doesn't seem to be shaping to be nearly as sharp. As far as China, a) I don't believe any of their numbers and b) I'd rather die than be forced to live in such an authoritarian system.
I guess that's why Covid has become so political
I agree that we can't compare all of the country to a small island nation, and that some countries may not be reporting accurate data either out of incompetence or malice. But Alaska is our South Korea and Hawaii is our Taiwan. Why are South Korea and Taiwan doing so much better than Alaska and Hawaii?
Yeah I don't think we should compare ourselves to small island nations, Europe and China seem like better comparisons. Europe as a whole, it seems we're doing better, we flattened the curve better than they seemed to do initially, and our second wave doesn't seem to be shaping to be nearly as sharp. As far as China, a) I don't believe any of their numbers and b) I'd rather die than be forced to live in such an authoritarian system.
I agree that we can't compare all of the country to a small island nation, and that some countries may not be reporting accurate data either out of incompetence or malice. But Alaska is our South Korea and Hawaii is our Taiwan. Why are South Korea and Taiwan doing so much better than Alaska and Hawaii?
@Wolfpack Mustachian that is exactly the OP's statement that bothered me the most.
It's so hostile and condescending. It's ugly to read.
Edit: And it wasn't a one-off statement. Her succeeding posts grew angrier and angrier.
Hopefully OP does reflect on her behavior, considers the roots of her frustration, and how it has led her to post things like this.
But, if you look at just the last week you get a much different view:
1. North Dakota
2. South Dakota
3. Montana
4. Wyoming
5. Wisconsin
6. New Mexico
7. Illinois
8. Iowa
9. Minnesota
10. Indiana
They've already declared martial law. THANKSGIVING IS ILLEGAL!!!!!!111oneone At least, that's what Trumpers are saying right now.
Thanksgiving is so illegal that your airports are full.
Thanksgiving is so illegal that your airports are full.
Not as full as the hospitals!
Why do people outside of the United States think that our "covid response" is so terrible? From what I can see from the data, we have about half the deaths per capita per day of the UK and a third of Italy. And all that in spite of the fact that many states/counties have very low covid rates and do not have any stay at home orders in place and life is basically normal.
Thanksgiving is so illegal that your airports are full. What are they smoking? /s
I have come to the conclusion that the US is #1 in not learning from others. We did the Thanksgiving/Halloween experiment and we are paying the price. And our Thanksgiving isn't nearly as huge family get-together focused as yours. At least we have time to get the numbers down a bit before all the various winter solstice celebrations - you will just be adding a newer high to a new high. Sort of like a tsunami at high tide.
I don't think it's as simple as a question of leadership quality, and more a question of culture and unique environments. It's quite obvious in the US that not all groups (on whatever lines you want to define them) are doing equally badly. Some European countries have had drastic lockdowns and still ended up doing horribly overall too. New Zealand has a bunch of attributes that would probably have allowed you guys to handle it well even with subpar leadership.Why do people outside of the United States think that our "covid response" is so terrible? From what I can see from the data, we have about half the deaths per capita per day of the UK and a third of Italy. And all that in spite of the fact that many states/counties have very low covid rates and do not have any stay at home orders in place and life is basically normal.
Because it is terrible. Comparing terrible results with other countries with terrible results doesn’t make your results better. Try comparing it with countries who’s leadership took appropriate and swift action.
The USA has 131x more COVID deaths per million than my country does. We have never had a mandatory mask mandate (except on public transport), I’ve never even worn a mask this whole time, the total amount of weeks I’ve been in lock down is 8.
FWIW other than the 8 weeks of lockdown my life is normal. We can sit at restaurants inside, I’ve been to a concert, we have private gatherings, shake hands, hug each other.
So why are we doing 131 x better? Our leadership acted fast with a coordinated effort across many sectors. The tragedy is the USA could have had similar results to New Zealand, but a failure of leadership prevented that.
Thanksgiving is so illegal that your airports are full. What are they smoking? /s
I have come to the conclusion that the US is #1 in not learning from others. We did the Thanksgiving/Halloween experiment and we are paying the price. And our Thanksgiving isn't nearly as huge family get-together focused as yours. At least we have time to get the numbers down a bit before all the various winter solstice celebrations - you will just be adding a newer high to a new high. Sort of like a tsunami at high tide.
Why do people outside of the United States think that our "covid response" is so terrible? From what I can see from the data, we have about half the deaths per capita per day of the UK and a third of Italy. And all that in spite of the fact that many states/counties have very low covid rates and do not have any stay at home orders in place and life is basically normal.
Because it is terrible. Comparing terrible results with other countries with terrible results doesn’t make your results better. Try comparing it with countries who’s leadership took appropriate and swift action.
The USA has 131x more COVID deaths per million than my country does. We have never had a mandatory mask mandate (except on public transport), I’ve never even worn a mask this whole time, the total amount of weeks I’ve been in lock down is 8.
FWIW other than the 8 weeks of lockdown my life is normal. We can sit at restaurants inside, I’ve been to a concert, we have private gatherings, shake hands, hug each other.
So why are we doing 131 x better? Our leadership acted fast with a coordinated effort across many sectors. The tragedy is the USA could have had similar results to New Zealand, but a failure of leadership prevented that.
Why do people outside of the United States think that our "covid response" is so terrible? From what I can see from the data, we have about half the deaths per capita per day of the UK and a third of Italy. And all that in spite of the fact that many states/counties have very low covid rates and do not have any stay at home orders in place and life is basically normal.
Because it is terrible. Comparing terrible results with other countries with terrible results doesn’t make your results better. Try comparing it with countries who’s leadership took appropriate and swift action.
The USA has 131x more COVID deaths per million than my country does. We have never had a mandatory mask mandate (except on public transport), I’ve never even worn a mask this whole time, the total amount of weeks I’ve been in lock down is 8.
FWIW other than the 8 weeks of lockdown my life is normal. We can sit at restaurants inside, I’ve been to a concert, we have private gatherings, shake hands, hug each other.
So why are we doing 131 x better? Our leadership acted fast with a coordinated effort across many sectors. The tragedy is the USA could have had similar results to New Zealand, but a failure of leadership prevented that.
I have to call BS on this. No, a country of 330 million people with hundreds of international entry points cannot be reasonably compared to an isolated island nation of five million with a handful of international entry points.
Wuhan locked down January 23rd at which point the first identified patient in the US had already arrived from Wuhan on January 15th. New Zealand first started restricting travel from China on February 3rd - around the same time the US and many other countries did the same. But because of the high level of travel between the US and China there were already multiple infected people in the US spread across multiple states.
We could have done better, but comparing one of the largest countries on earth to an isolated island nation like New Zealand or Iceland is disingenuous at best.
Why do people outside of the United States think that our "covid response" is so terrible? From what I can see from the data, we have about half the deaths per capita per day of the UK and a third of Italy. And all that in spite of the fact that many states/counties have very low covid rates and do not have any stay at home orders in place and life is basically normal.
Because it is terrible. Comparing terrible results with other countries with terrible results doesn’t make your results better. Try comparing it with countries who’s leadership took appropriate and swift action.
The USA has 131x more COVID deaths per million than my country does. We have never had a mandatory mask mandate (except on public transport), I’ve never even worn a mask this whole time, the total amount of weeks I’ve been in lock down is 8.
FWIW other than the 8 weeks of lockdown my life is normal. We can sit at restaurants inside, I’ve been to a concert, we have private gatherings, shake hands, hug each other.
So why are we doing 131 x better? Our leadership acted fast with a coordinated effort across many sectors. The tragedy is the USA could have had similar results to New Zealand, but a failure of leadership prevented that.
I have to call BS on this. No, a country of 330 million people with hundreds of international entry points cannot be reasonably compared to an isolated island nation of five million with a handful of international entry points.
Wuhan locked down January 23rd at which point the first identified patient in the US had already arrived from Wuhan on January 15th. New Zealand first started restricting travel from China on February 3rd - around the same time the US and many other countries did the same. But because of the high level of travel between the US and China there were already multiple infected people in the US spread across multiple states.
We could have done better, but comparing one of the largest countries on earth to an isolated island nation like New Zealand or Iceland is disingenuous at best.
NZ has many advantages, such as a leader who is trusted and believes in the virus and people who believe in their government, but being an island with controllable access points is one of the largest.
Of course, England is also an island and it's doing shitty. A lot depends on how the populace is reacting and, in this, Americans and Brits are acting like children.
Of course, England is also an island and it's doing shitty. A lot depends on how the populace is reacting and, in this, Americans and Brits are acting like children.
Of course, England is also an island and it's doing shitty. A lot depends on how the populace is reacting and, in this, Americans and Brits are acting like children.
Did NZ really lock down the borders? Because the EU and NAFTA kept the borders open for food and supplies. You can still cross to/from Mexico/USA/Canada without quarantine as long as you are driving a truck full of goods.
Having lived in the US and UK, I'm not sure that the food supply chains are setup for a real border closure. Maybe NZ is.
No country really locked down borders. At least to my knowledge they all kept borders open for trade/mail/etc.
No country really locked down borders. At least to my knowledge they all kept borders open for trade/mail/etc.
Umm, [a]n estimated 300,000 cargo ship workers are currently trapped at sea by the coronavirus pandemic, and many are speaking out about the grinding monotony and possible accidents. - https://www.businessinsider.com/cargo-ship-workers-trapped-sea-predict-anarchy-not-sent-home-2020-7 (https://www.businessinsider.com/cargo-ship-workers-trapped-sea-predict-anarchy-not-sent-home-2020-7)
Maybe they let the goods in - that's a lot different than NAFTA and the EU where, to the best of my knowledge, they let the drivers in.
No country really locked down borders. At least to my knowledge they all kept borders open for trade/mail/etc.
Umm, [a]n estimated 300,000 cargo ship workers are currently trapped at sea by the coronavirus pandemic, and many are speaking out about the grinding monotony and possible accidents. - https://www.businessinsider.com/cargo-ship-workers-trapped-sea-predict-anarchy-not-sent-home-2020-7 (https://www.businessinsider.com/cargo-ship-workers-trapped-sea-predict-anarchy-not-sent-home-2020-7)
Maybe they let the goods in - that's a lot different than NAFTA and the EU where, to the best of my knowledge, they let the drivers in.
I've seen no disruption whatsoever to supply chains where shipping is required . . . but I did not know that that was going on with shipping crews. That's pretty crazy.
[New Zealand has a bunch of attributes that would probably have allowed you guys to handle it well even with subpar leadership.
Did NZ really lock down the borders? Because the EU and NAFTA kept the borders open for food and supplies.
I have to call BS on this. No, a country of 330 million people with hundreds of international entry points cannot be reasonably compared to an isolated island nation of five million with a handful of international entry points.
Wuhan locked down January 23rd at which point the first identified patient in the US had already arrived from Wuhan on January 15th. New Zealand first started restricting travel from China on February 3rd - around the same time the US and many other countries did the same. But because of the high level of travel between the US and China there were already multiple infected people in the US spread across multiple states.
We could have done better, but comparing one of the largest countries on earth to an isolated island nation like New Zealand or Iceland is disingenuous at best.
NZ has many advantages, such as a leader who is trusted and believes in the virus and people who believe in their government, but being an island with controllable access points is one of the largest.
Of course, England is also an island and it's doing shitty. A lot depends on how the populace is reacting and, in this, Americans and Brits are acting like children.
You don't think having roughly one tenth of the population density of the UK, and having essentially no populous neighbors one 2 hour train ride away could have something to do with it?[New Zealand has a bunch of attributes that would probably have allowed you guys to handle it well even with subpar leadership.
Sub par leadership in NZ would have resulted in UK levels of COVID deaths. there’s nothing magical about the people that live in New Zealand. We’re not an island of elves, dwarf, wizards and hobbits.
Did NZ really lock down the borders? Because the EU and NAFTA kept the borders open for food and supplies.Our customs boarders remained open. We shut our borders to non residents.
[New Zealand has a bunch of attributes that would probably have allowed you guys to handle it well even with subpar leadership.
Sub par leadership in NZ would have resulted in UK levels of COVID deaths. there’s nothing magical about the people that live in New Zealand. We’re not an island of elves, dwarf, wizards and hobbits.
I have to call BS on this. No, a country of 330 million people with hundreds of international entry points cannot be reasonably compared to an isolated island nation of five million with a handful of international entry points.
Wuhan locked down January 23rd at which point the first identified patient in the US had already arrived from Wuhan on January 15th. New Zealand first started restricting travel from China on February 3rd - around the same time the US and many other countries did the same. But because of the high level of travel between the US and China there were already multiple infected people in the US spread across multiple states.
We could have done better, but comparing one of the largest countries on earth to an isolated island nation like New Zealand or Iceland is disingenuous at best.
Why not. Both countries had community transmission of COVID, from that point on were completely comparable, unless you’re going to try and argue that the continued volume of COVID cases in the USA is entirely due to people crossing the Canada and Mexico border.
FWIW New Zealand also experiences high levels of travel between ourselves and China. Chinese visitors to NZ per year exceeds 10% of our population. That’s over 450,000 visitors from that region alone. In total we get 3.8 million international visitors per year. Just because we are geographically isolated does not mean we are isolated from the people of the world.
I have to call BS on this. No, a country of 330 million people with hundreds of international entry points cannot be reasonably compared to an isolated island nation of five million with a handful of international entry points.
Wuhan locked down January 23rd at which point the first identified patient in the US had already arrived from Wuhan on January 15th. New Zealand first started restricting travel from China on February 3rd - around the same time the US and many other countries did the same. But because of the high level of travel between the US and China there were already multiple infected people in the US spread across multiple states.
We could have done better, but comparing one of the largest countries on earth to an isolated island nation like New Zealand or Iceland is disingenuous at best.
Why not. Both countries had community transmission of COVID, from that point on were completely comparable, unless you’re going to try and argue that the continued volume of COVID cases in the USA is entirely due to people crossing the Canada and Mexico border.
FWIW New Zealand also experiences high levels of travel between ourselves and China. Chinese visitors to NZ per year exceeds 10% of our population. That’s over 450,000 visitors from that region alone. In total we get 3.8 million international visitors per year. Just because we are geographically isolated does not mean we are isolated from the people of the world.
Is domestic air travel common in NZ, or is it mostly international? Domestic travel is very common in the US in addition to the international travel due to the size of the country. LAX alone had over 88 million passengers in 2019. That's an average of almost 250k passengers per day and it's not even the busiest airport in the US. Plus, with the way that air travel works in the US, many passengers make stops in several different cities before reaching their destination. So that traveler from China may have originally come into LAX, and had to switch planes in 30 minutes where they flew to Denver, then Atlanta, then Austin within a few hours. Co mingling with others at each location of course. The same thing is happening simultaneously in NYCs various international airports and Chicago, and over 100 other international airports with European visitors and Canadian visitors, and South American visitors, etc. Tracing that many vectors through that many nodes with any accuracy or speed is pretty impossible.
The only way to have really shut it out would've been stopping all international travel at once before cases were in the triple digits, but that strands a whole lot of your citizens in other countries, and it locks out all of the people that live on one side of your border while working on the other. It's a whole lot easier to separate and screen a few flights per day of international travelers at 3 airports from 15 other nations than it is to do the same thing for hundreds of daily flights from 50 other nations at over 100 international airports spread out over thousands of miles, all while simultaneously closing down many thousands of miles of land borders. It's not even close to the same logistical problem.
It's not even close to the same logistical problem.
Is domestic air travel common in NZ, or is it mostly international?
So that traveler from China may have originally come into LAX, and had to switch planes in 30 minutes where they flew to Denver, then Atlanta, then Austin within a few hours.
Tracing that many vectors through that many nodes with any accuracy or speed is pretty impossible.... It's a whole lot easier to separate and screen a few flights per day of international travelers at 3 airports from 15 other nations than it is to do the same thing for hundreds of daily flights from 50 other nations at over 100 international airports spread out over thousands of miles, all while simultaneously closing down many thousands of miles of land borders. It's not even close to the same logistical problem.
Are you sure? What if 500,000 Kiwis thought covid19 was a hoax created by communists/liberals/Jews/elderly billionaires?
Or that it was real but the cities of Christchurch and Manukau decided that keeping bars and gyms and restaurants completely open was a better idea than shutting down?
Or if Wellington shut down but armed protestors showed up at city hall to protest the decision?
Because Canada and the UK needed to let drivers from the US and France in in order to get food.
China handled the pandemic well so even if you had been letting a ton of Chinese in it probably wouldn't have been a problem.
QuoteBecause Canada and the UK needed to let drivers from the US and France in in order to get food.
Seriously it’s this one vector that cannot be solved?
QuoteChina handled the pandemic well so even if you had been letting a ton of Chinese in it probably wouldn't have been a problem.
UK and USA visitors are number 3 and 4 on the list of countries with the most visitors to New Zealand.
Maybe instead of comparing the US to NZ, which did have advantages that have not been mentioned here, compare the US to Canada. Both large countries with dense areas and low density areas, both with 3 levels of government where health care is a state/provincial responsibility so there are limits to what the feds can do. Plus geographically close, so American cultural ideas easily spill over the border. As in, QAnon, masks being an infringement on rights, ignore social gathering numbers for holidays (for us Thanksgiving and Halloween) and all the other dangerous nonsense. Our numbers are much worse than NZ's, but much better than the US. And per capita numbers are worst in Alberta, thanks to a right-wing oil loving social services slashing provincial governent. Not to mention Ontario, with a Conservative government.
So many Ph. D theses will come out of all the analysis.
Maybe instead of comparing the US to NZ, which did have advantages that have not been mentioned here, compare the US to Canada. Both large countries with dense areas and low density areas, both with 3 levels of government where health care is a state/provincial responsibility so there are limits to what the feds can do. Plus geographically close, so American cultural ideas easily spill over the border. As in, QAnon, masks being an infringement on rights, ignore social gathering numbers for holidays (for us Thanksgiving and Halloween) and all the other dangerous nonsense. Our numbers are much worse than NZ's, but much better than the US. And per capita numbers are worst in Alberta, thanks to a right-wing oil loving social services slashing provincial governent. Not to mention Ontario, with a Conservative government.I would think Europe might be the best comparison to the us? Countries the size of our states that have easy / common travel between and each one with different rules.
So many Ph. D theses will come out of all the analysis.
Maybe instead of comparing the US to NZ, which did have advantages that have not been mentioned here, compare the US to Canada. Both large countries with dense areas and low density areas, both with 3 levels of government where health care is a state/provincial responsibility so there are limits to what the feds can do. Plus geographically close, so American cultural ideas easily spill over the border. As in, QAnon, masks being an infringement on rights, ignore social gathering numbers for holidays (for us Thanksgiving and Halloween) and all the other dangerous nonsense. Our numbers are much worse than NZ's, but much better than the US. And per capita numbers are worst in Alberta, thanks to a right-wing oil loving social services slashing provincial governent. Not to mention Ontario, with a Conservative government.I would think Europe might be the best comparison to the us? Countries the size of our states that have easy / common travel between and each one with different rules.
So many Ph. D theses will come out of all the analysis.
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And this: Supreme Court Blocks Covid-19 Restrictions on Religious Services in New York (https://www.wsj.com/articles/supreme-court-blocks-covid-19-restrictions-on-church-attendance-in-new-york-11606369004).
Maybe instead of comparing the US to NZ, which did have advantages that have not been mentioned here, compare the US to Canada. Both large countries with dense areas and low density areas, both with 3 levels of government where health care is a state/provincial responsibility so there are limits to what the feds can do. Plus geographically close, so American cultural ideas easily spill over the border. As in, QAnon, masks being an infringement on rights, ignore social gathering numbers for holidays (for us Thanksgiving and Halloween) and all the other dangerous nonsense. Our numbers are much worse than NZ's, but much better than the US. And per capita numbers are worst in Alberta, thanks to a right-wing oil loving social services slashing provincial governent. Not to mention Ontario, with a Conservative government.I would think Europe might be the best comparison to the us? Countries the size of our states that have easy / common travel between and each one with different rules.
So many Ph. D theses will come out of all the analysis.
We have big provinces and little provinces plus 3 territories, and health is a provincial responsibility so 13 sets of rules, plus only 2 languages, the more common one being English. Plus provincial Conservative parties that follow the US Republican example.
All the above is why I thought the comparison was useful. But sure, you can look at Europe, or Asia, or Africa, or South America, its all over.
South Dakota has reported more COVID-19 deaths per capita over the last week than anywhere else in the country, and it has the highest per capita rate of COVID-19 hospitalizations.
[...]
Back in Sioux Falls [which now has a non-legal mask mandate], the mayor has taken heat for his response to questions about why so many people don't want to wear a mask. "This is cowboy country, man," TenHaken said. "And you try and tell someone to do something and they want to do the opposite."
It's also important to note that South Dakota citizens aren't calling for their governor to resign. "Leadership" is a nice thought but they have the government theywantdeserve.
And this: Supreme Court Blocks Covid-19 Restrictions on Religious Services in New York (https://www.wsj.com/articles/supreme-court-blocks-covid-19-restrictions-on-church-attendance-in-new-york-11606369004).
The high bench struck the balance in favor of the First Amendment's Free Exercise Clause.
It's also important to note that South Dakota citizens aren't calling for their governor to resign. "Leadership" is a nice thought but they have the government theywantdeserve.
:P
And this: Supreme Court Blocks Covid-19 Restrictions on Religious Services in New York (https://www.wsj.com/articles/supreme-court-blocks-covid-19-restrictions-on-church-attendance-in-new-york-11606369004).
The high bench struck the balance in favor of the First Amendment's Free Exercise Clause.
Yes, but they didn't have to, because the clause reads Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances..
But in this context congress means the US congress, which is why historically the SCOTUS has not chosen to strike down state measures on public health.
So while I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment, I'm also not convinced that it was good law.
OK. Compare the US to Australia then, if you don't want to compare yourselves with NZ (which is doing better than us). We are repatriating citizens all the time, because many of our citizens are still stuck overseas. We have diplomats flying in all the time - many with covid, who then isolate at their embassies. Many people arriving here have covid, and our outbreaks have come from arrivals spreading it to the community in dense parts of cities.
Australia has a similar land area to the contiguous US. We do have a much smaller population BUT our population is one of the most urbanised in the world, and we have very few people in most of our landmass. If covid19 got into our rural and remote communities we would have a lot of deaths because those areas don't have their own services - they have a Flying Doctor service, where doctors in small airplanes land on remote landing strips and then the patients are treated or flown for hours to the nearest hospital. Our large cities do have millions of people (Sydney and Melbourne both have more than 4 million) even though we have less than 10 large cities. 28% or our population are from other countries - many more than the US. The Sydney to Melbourne air route was the second biggest in the world (pre covid19).
Like the US, all our states and territories make their own rules. We manufacture very little, so we import a lot of stuff (like NZ) - much more than the US per head of population. We are also a food bowl (like NZ), and we have a huge mining industry so we export a lot of stuff, and this is continuing throughout the pandemic.
Anyone can be tested - and everyone is encouraged to test even where I live, where there has been no community covid19 for about 200 days. We do have really good contact tracing - but that can only happen because they don't have that many people to trace. Our leaders are prepared to shut down hot spots when there are outbreaks. Last week there were 17 cases in a state because it escaped quarantine again. More than 4000 people were tested as a result. The neighbouring states shut down their borders. People in that city were put into lockdown for a few days.
We take it seriously. Leadership trust is making a big difference.
OK. Compare the US to Australia then, if you don't want to compare yourselves with NZ (which is doing better than us). We are repatriating citizens all the time, because many of our citizens are still stuck overseas. We have diplomats flying in all the time - many with covid, who then isolate at their embassies. Many people arriving here have covid, and our outbreaks have come from arrivals spreading it to the community in dense parts of cities.
Australia has a similar land area to the contiguous US. We do have a much smaller population BUT our population is one of the most urbanised in the world, and we have very few people in most of our landmass. If covid19 got into our rural and remote communities we would have a lot of deaths because those areas don't have their own services - they have a Flying Doctor service, where doctors in small airplanes land on remote landing strips and then the patients are treated or flown for hours to the nearest hospital. Our large cities do have millions of people (Sydney and Melbourne both have more than 4 million) even though we have less than 10 large cities. 28% or our population are from other countries - many more than the US. The Sydney to Melbourne air route was the second biggest in the world (pre covid19).
Like the US, all our states and territories make their own rules. We manufacture very little, so we import a lot of stuff (like NZ) - much more than the US per head of population. We are also a food bowl (like NZ), and we have a huge mining industry so we export a lot of stuff, and this is continuing throughout the pandemic.
Anyone can be tested - and everyone is encouraged to test even where I live, where there has been no community covid19 for about 200 days. We do have really good contact tracing - but that can only happen because they don't have that many people to trace. Our leaders are prepared to shut down hot spots when there are outbreaks. Last week there were 17 cases in a state because it escaped quarantine again. More than 4000 people were tested as a result. The neighbouring states shut down their borders. People in that city were put into lockdown for a few days.
We take it seriously. Leadership trust is making a big difference.
I think Australia has done a great job and the US has done a horrible job but I do not think they are a good comparison to each other.
Australia has ~25 million people in ~7.7 mIllion square KM and while they have dense cities they are very distanced. Also climate is significantly different and it is an island.
US has ~333 million people in ~9.8 million square KM and we are spread out with little cities just miles apart across the entire country.
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Seriously you have little cities spread out just miles apart across the entire country? You have huge areas with very low population density, just like Australia and Canada have dense urban areas, less dense areas, and really sparse areas. What map are you looking at?
If you want lots of little cities just miles apart, that describes any urban area, big city plus satellite cities.
Why the fixation on Europe? They are totally autonomous countries. The US, Canada and Australia all have the 3 tier level of government with health care being the responsibility of the middle tier, and overall strategy being the responsibility of the top tier.
Seriously you have little cities spread out just miles apart across the entire country? You have huge areas with very low population density, just like Australia and Canada have dense urban areas, less dense areas, and really sparse areas. What map are you looking at?
If you want lots of little cities just miles apart, that describes any urban area, big city plus satellite cities.
Why the fixation on Europe? They are totally autonomous countries. The US, Canada and Australia all have the 3 tier level of government with health care being the responsibility of the middle tier, and overall strategy being the responsibility of the top tier.
People in this thread seem to consistently misunderstand how the American governmental system works.
The federal government does not have the ability to mandate to the states how they should handle responses to covid. The president, for example, can't even legally issue a mask mandate let alone dictate a cohesive strategic response.
In the USA, states are incredibly independent - by design.
Trump certainly could have been a leader more and recommended various things to states. But there's really no way for him or arguably even congress to dictate to the entire 50 states a consistent covid response.
It's why people reference Europe vs other countries when discussing the USA and its response to covid, because the USA just isn't a top down country when it comes to a huge percentage of policy. There are extremely clear lines as to what the federal government can and cannot do.
There's a separate conversation about whether this separation of powers is good or not. Either way it's certainly the case now and it's a bit perplexing to me how many people do not seem to understand the actual federal vs states responsibilities in the USA (not just you @RetiredAt63, this whole thread is full of this perspective and in fact was created out of a fundamental misunderstanding of state vs federal responsibilities in the USA).
Why the fixation on Europe? They are totally autonomous countries. The US, Canada and Australia all have the 3 tier level of government with health care being the responsibility of the middle tier, and overall strategy being the responsibility of the top tier.
It's also important to note that South Dakota citizens aren't calling for their governor to resign. "Leadership" is a nice thought but they have the government theywantdeserve.
:P
So I guess “leadership” is a code word for telling folks what to do even if they aren’t interested?
OK. Compare the US to Australia then, if you don't want to compare yourselves with NZ (which is doing better than us). We are repatriating citizens all the time, because many of our citizens are still stuck overseas. We have diplomats flying in all the time - many with covid, who then isolate at their embassies. Many people arriving here have covid, and our outbreaks have come from arrivals spreading it to the community in dense parts of cities.
Australia has a similar land area to the contiguous US. We do have a much smaller population BUT our population is one of the most urbanised in the world, and we have very few people in most of our landmass. If covid19 got into our rural and remote communities we would have a lot of deaths because those areas don't have their own services - they have a Flying Doctor service, where doctors in small airplanes land on remote landing strips and then the patients are treated or flown for hours to the nearest hospital. Our large cities do have millions of people (Sydney and Melbourne both have more than 4 million) even though we have less than 10 large cities. 28% or our population are from other countries - many more than the US. The Sydney to Melbourne air route was the second biggest in the world (pre covid19).
Like the US, all our states and territories make their own rules. We manufacture very little, so we import a lot of stuff (like NZ) - much more than the US per head of population. We are also a food bowl (like NZ), and we have a huge mining industry so we export a lot of stuff, and this is continuing throughout the pandemic.
Anyone can be tested - and everyone is encouraged to test even where I live, where there has been no community covid19 for about 200 days. We do have really good contact tracing - but that can only happen because they don't have that many people to trace. Our leaders are prepared to shut down hot spots when there are outbreaks. Last week there were 17 cases in a state because it escaped quarantine again. More than 4000 people were tested as a result. The neighbouring states shut down their borders. People in that city were put into lockdown for a few days.
We take it seriously. Leadership trust is making a big difference.
I think Australia has done a great job and the US has done a horrible job but I do not think they are a good comparison to each other.
Australia has ~25 million people in ~7.7 mIllion square KM and while they have dense cities they are very distanced. Also climate is significantly different and it is an island.
US has ~333 million people in ~9.8 million square KM and we are spread out with little cities just miles apart across the entire country.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Seriously you have little cities spread out just miles apart across the entire country? You have huge areas with very low population density, just like Australia and Canada have dense urban areas, less dense areas, and really sparse areas. What map are you looking at?
If you want lots of little cities just miles apart, that describes any urban area, big city plus satellite cities.
Why the fixation on Europe? They are totally autonomous countries. The US, Canada and Australia all have the 3 tier level of government with health care being the responsibility of the middle tier, and overall strategy being the responsibility of the top tier.
People in this thread seem to consistently misunderstand how the American governmental system works.
The federal government does not have the ability to mandate to the states how they should handle responses to covid. The president, for example, can't even legally issue a mask mandate let alone dictate a cohesive strategic response.
In the USA, states are incredibly independent - by design.
Trump certainly could have been a leader more and recommended various things to states. But there's really no way for him or arguably even congress to dictate to the entire 50 states a consistent covid response.
It's why people reference Europe vs other countries when discussing the USA and its response to covid, because the USA just isn't a top down country when it comes to a huge percentage of policy. There are extremely clear lines as to what the federal government can and cannot do.
There's a separate conversation about whether this separation of powers is good or not. Either way it's certainly the case now and it's a bit perplexing to me how many people do not seem to understand the actual federal vs states responsibilities in the USA (not just you @RetiredAt63, this whole thread is full of this perspective and in fact was created out of a fundamental misunderstanding of state vs federal responsibilities in the USA).
Our Prime Minister CAN NOT MAKE PEOPLE do anything re health initiatives, just like the US President cannot make people do anything. It is up to our PROVINCIAL governments. This is why I keep talking about a 3 tier system (federal, provincial/state, munical). What our federal government can do is lead by example, and do a pile of country-wide financial support. So Trudeau and Parliament wear masks and social distance to be good examples, and support vaccine research and reserve vaccine production and do financial support (like CERB) and control foreign entry, because those are things the federal government can do....
OK. Compare the US to Australia then, if you don't want to compare yourselves with NZ (which is doing better than us). We are repatriating citizens all the time, because many of our citizens are still stuck overseas. We have diplomats flying in all the time - many with covid, who then isolate at their embassies. Many people arriving here have covid, and our outbreaks have come from arrivals spreading it to the community in dense parts of cities.
Australia has a similar land area to the contiguous US. We do have a much smaller population BUT our population is one of the most urbanised in the world, and we have very few people in most of our landmass. If covid19 got into our rural and remote communities we would have a lot of deaths because those areas don't have their own services - they have a Flying Doctor service, where doctors in small airplanes land on remote landing strips and then the patients are treated or flown for hours to the nearest hospital. Our large cities do have millions of people (Sydney and Melbourne both have more than 4 million) even though we have less than 10 large cities. 28% or our population are from other countries - many more than the US. The Sydney to Melbourne air route was the second biggest in the world (pre covid19).
Like the US, all our states and territories make their own rules. We manufacture very little, so we import a lot of stuff (like NZ) - much more than the US per head of population. We are also a food bowl (like NZ), and we have a huge mining industry so we export a lot of stuff, and this is continuing throughout the pandemic.
Anyone can be tested - and everyone is encouraged to test even where I live, where there has been no community covid19 for about 200 days. We do have really good contact tracing - but that can only happen because they don't have that many people to trace. Our leaders are prepared to shut down hot spots when there are outbreaks. Last week there were 17 cases in a state because it escaped quarantine again. More than 4000 people were tested as a result. The neighbouring states shut down their borders. People in that city were put into lockdown for a few days.
We take it seriously. Leadership trust is making a big difference.
I think Australia has done a great job and the US has done a horrible job but I do not think they are a good comparison to each other.
Australia has ~25 million people in ~7.7 mIllion square KM and while they have dense cities they are very distanced. Also climate is significantly different and it is an island.
US has ~333 million people in ~9.8 million square KM and we are spread out with little cities just miles apart across the entire country.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Seriously you have little cities spread out just miles apart across the entire country? You have huge areas with very low population density, just like Australia and Canada have dense urban areas, less dense areas, and really sparse areas. What map are you looking at?
If you want lots of little cities just miles apart, that describes any urban area, big city plus satellite cities.
Why the fixation on Europe? They are totally autonomous countries. The US, Canada and Australia all have the 3 tier level of government with health care being the responsibility of the middle tier, and overall strategy being the responsibility of the top tier.
I think you underestimate how little un inhabited area is located in the continental US and how many people live in rural areas creating a web of communities and roads that cover pretty much the entirety of the land mass.
Since you want a map how about a light pollution map
https://www.lightpollutionmap.info/#zoom=1.30&lat=14.7492&lon=14.5351&layers=B0FFFFFTFFFFFFFFFF
https://blue-marble.de/nightlights/2012
http://www.lightpollution.it/download/mondo_ridotto0p25.gi
www.sciencealert.com/light-pollution-is-a-huge-problem-and-there-s-few-places-left-in-the-us-without-it/amp
And here is one for population. The dots for cities is pretty telling
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/mapping-population-density-dot-town/
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Our Prime Minister CAN NOT MAKE PEOPLE do anything re health initiatives, just like the US President cannot make people do anything. It is up to our PROVINCIAL governments. This is why I keep talking about a 3 tier system (federal, provincial/state, munical). What our federal government can do is lead by example, and do a pile of country-wide financial support. So Trudeau and Parliament wear masks and social distance to be good examples, and support vaccine research and reserve vaccine production and do financial support (like CERB) and control foreign entry, because those are things the federal government can do....
I had to check, but I just noticed that your Liberals don't currently hold a majority in parliament. So, as a thought experiment, imagine that they did. Like in the UK, where the Tories have a healthy majority in the lower house.
With a healthy majority in the lower house in a parliamentary democracy you can get shit done. Neither the UK House of Lords nor the Canadian Senate would block public health legislation during a global pandemic. This is very different from the US system where we have a strong Senate and a separate strong executive. Good luck getting anything done.
To me, that is the single largest failing of the US system. It was designed with the intent of stopping bad legislation more than passing good legislation.
New Zealand density per sq km map: http://infoshare.stats.govt.nz/~/media/Statistics/browse-categories/population/estimates-projections/SubnationalPopulationEstimates_AtJun17_MR3/map-snpe-30jun17-pop-density.png?h=716&w=500
note the medium blue (100-200 per sq km)
US density per sq km map: https://www.mapbusinessonline.com/Content/images/map_gallery/usa-population-density.png
note the darkest red (100-30,000 per sq km)
US and NZ land area for comparison:https://external-preview.redd.it/yalhG3bkQUJftNa8B0L7SbzFBvMqpQ1g4in1gsP02Bg.jpg?auto=webp&s=3b5f1f0a92fd70093f937fbc751faf6c2a45e29e
One can see how density (which is directly related to rate of spread for respiratory infection) creates two different problems for the two countries.
I decided to be a huge dork and made this graphic from the above maps.
Yes we have a minority government. They still govern with the cooperation of other parties, right now the NDP. They are passing legislation. When they lose a vote of confidence (I.e. lose a money vote) we will have another election.
However, minority or majority, THEY ARE NOT IN CHARGE OF HEALTH CARE. Sorry to yell, but I have said this multiple times. If they did that the Provinces would kick up a huge ruckus.
The BNA Act listed the powers of the federal government and the Provinces, with anything left out going to the Provinces. That is why we have 13 health setups and 13 educational setups. They are both provincial under the BNA Act. The Provinces guard what is theirs just as strongly as your states guard what is theirs. After all, the original provinces were separate mostly self-governing colonies before they joined together, and they certainly weren't going to give anything up.
And the practical difference is what? Until the change happens, nothing. And will the change ever happen? No.Yes we have a minority government. They still govern with the cooperation of other parties, right now the NDP. They are passing legislation. When they lose a vote of confidence (I.e. lose a money vote) we will have another election.
However, minority or majority, THEY ARE NOT IN CHARGE OF HEALTH CARE. Sorry to yell, but I have said this multiple times. If they did that the Provinces would kick up a huge ruckus.
The BNA Act listed the powers of the federal government and the Provinces, with anything left out going to the Provinces. That is why we have 13 health setups and 13 educational setups. They are both provincial under the BNA Act. The Provinces guard what is theirs just as strongly as your states guard what is theirs. After all, the original provinces were separate mostly self-governing colonies before they joined together, and they certainly weren't going to give anything up.
Yes, and? The BNA Act and be modified with a simple majority in that parliament that you just mentioned, right? That is fundamentally different that the US system.
I don't see how this is different than devolved authority in Scotland. They have devolved authority, but only because the House of Commons in Westminster gave it to them.
And the practical difference is what? Until the change happens, nothing. And will the change ever happen? No.
Yes we have a minority government. They still govern with the cooperation of other parties, right now the NDP. They are passing legislation. When they lose a vote of confidence (I.e. lose a money vote) we will have another election.
However, minority or majority, THEY ARE NOT IN CHARGE OF HEALTH CARE. Sorry to yell, but I have said this multiple times. If they did that the Provinces would kick up a huge ruckus.
The BNA Act listed the powers of the federal government and the Provinces, with anything left out going to the Provinces. That is why we have 13 health setups and 13 educational setups. They are both provincial under the BNA Act. The Provinces guard what is theirs just as strongly as your states guard what is theirs. After all, the original provinces were separate mostly self-governing colonies before they joined together, and they certainly weren't going to give anything up.
Yes, and? The BNA Act and be modified with a simple majority in that parliament that you just mentioned, right? That is fundamentally different that the US system.
I don't see how this is different than devolved authority in Scotland. They have devolved authority, but only because the House of Commons in Westminster gave it to them.
If you had googled you would see it isn't that easy.
We repatriated the BNA Act a while ago, but changing it is NOT easy. It needs to pass the House, the Senate, and at least 7 provinces representing 50% of the population. That 7 provinces/50% population thing basically makes it almost impossible to do anything. Google Meech Lake Accord.
And the practical difference is what? Until the change happens, nothing. And will the change ever happen? No.
You think that if some provinces just refused to implement the Canada Health Act nothing would happen? Because that's exactly what happened with Obamacare. There are still multiple states that never expanded medicaid.
Likewise, if one of Canada's provinces looked like North Dakota right now, you think that the Parliament wouldn't step in? I'm leery of that claim.
Seriously, why do Americans think their governments have these clearly defined boundaries and we are loosey-goosey? The only thing Alberta and Quebec agree on is limiting federal power. And every other province agrees on that as well.
If you had googled you would see it isn't that easy.
I did, but I am more familiar with the US and UK constitutions, so I didn't know the right search terms.We repatriated the BNA Act a while ago, but changing it is NOT easy. It needs to pass the House, the Senate, and at least 7 provinces representing 50% of the population. That 7 provinces/50% population thing basically makes it almost impossible to do anything. Google Meech Lake Accord.
Congrats, you managed to legislate your way into a quagmire. That was dumb.
But along those lines, you don't realize how nice you have it with your senate. When was the last time that your senate blocked everything that came out of the house for years?
What's happening in the US could happen in Australia. The states have to agree to things the Federal government wants to do. The federal government decided they wanted to build a road in one of our states, and the state didn't want to, so it didn't happen, even though the federal government tried to force them to do it by withholding funds for other things over a period of years.And the practical difference is what? Until the change happens, nothing. And will the change ever happen? No.
You think that if some provinces just refused to implement the Canada Health Act nothing would happen? Because that's exactly what happened with Obamacare. There are still multiple states that never expanded medicaid.
Likewise, if one of Canada's provinces looked like North Dakota right now, you think that the Parliament wouldn't step in? I'm leery of that claim.
Seriously, why do Americans think their governments have these clearly defined boundaries and we are loosey-goosey? The only thing Alberta and Quebec agree on is limiting federal power. And every other province agrees on that as well.
It's not that I'm American, it's that I'm a UK citizen. I wrongly thought that your system was closer to the UK's.
Seriously, why do Americans think their governments have these clearly defined boundaries and we are loosey-goosey? The only thing Alberta and Quebec agree on is limiting federal power. And every other province agrees on that as well.
It's not that I'm American, it's that I'm a UK citizen. I wrongly thought that your system was closer to the UK's.
Oh, ours is.
Seriously, why do Americans think their governments have these clearly defined boundaries and we are loosey-goosey? The only thing Alberta and Quebec agree on is limiting federal power. And every other province agrees on that as well.
It's not that I'm American, it's that I'm a UK citizen. I wrongly thought that your system was closer to the UK's.
Oh, ours is.
Yes and no. It sounds like you couldn't gut a province with an act of parliament (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Constitution_Act_1973).
I see OP hasn't been back to defend the absolutely stupid statements that were made.I haven't seen much evidence lately that Americans believe in the rule of law. Trump certainly doesn't. The militia's don't. The "won't wear a mask even when it's mandated" lot don't. American "freedom" has nothing to do with the rule of law, either inside America or in American actions outside America, and probably never has.
The US handling of Covid has been imperfect, but in a country that's so fragmented (in terms of its level of governments) and in a country with a massive population, lots of intra-country travel and lots of big cities, it's understandable that it's hard to bring Covid under control.
The US also is more freedom-centric than, say, Australia, which means that its ability to get a pandemic under control is inferior, but it does of course benefit in other ways from its freedom-centrism, such as via its higher economic output. In New Zealand the populace were happy for the government to act against the rule of law in order to implement a wide, harsh lockdown; in the US you care about the rule of law and about citizens' individual freedoms, and I can totally understand the perspective. Likewise here in Melbourne we have had no cases for a month and yet there are still restrictions on small businesses' ability to access their office premises; that would never be tolerated in the U.S.
In fact here in Melbourne there was a several week period where we were in max stage lockdown uniformly throughout the city even though many postcodes had nil active cases and 90% of the active cases were in 5 or 6 postcodes. It would be the equivalent of asking Hollywood residents to lockdown because there were active cases in Compton and Long Beach. Again, in the U.S. it would never happen.
You can debate which approach is superior but I have a lot of sympathy for Americans and the proud traditions that America brings and which have made it the greatest country on Earth (till maybe Trump came along).
Trump may not have, but all the judges who threw out the lawsuits, and the Fox News pundits who called out Trump's mis-information, and heck even Fox News itself which called the right states at the right time, and guys like Chris Christie who called out Trump - all of them believe in the rule of law.I thought we were talking about the pandemic, not the election. Court decisions on the pandemic have been consistently against state actions to control the pandemic.
America is a beautiful country - one that is regularly shat on by foreigners who know nothing of it, and one whose citizens sometimes forget how privileged they are. Having lived in the U.S., I fondly remember a lot of its great points.
There was the truckie from Melbourne who spread it to regional Victoria including Shepparton.
Court cases have fairly consistently come down against the restrictions, particularly in cases where it restricts a specifically enumerated right, such as the right to assemble for redress of grievances and for religious services. As was the case recently in NY where the courts decided that no, you can’t shut down religious services but leave liquor stores open. You might also notice that the police in the US have been extremely reluctant to shut down political demonstrations. Because they’re well aware that the courts will likely rule against them. Why arrest people to have them get let out in short order. And most likely have them sue the police (successfully) for civil rights violations?Trump may not have, but all the judges who threw out the lawsuits, and the Fox News pundits who called out Trump's mis-information, and heck even Fox News itself which called the right states at the right time, and guys like Chris Christie who called out Trump - all of them believe in the rule of law.I thought we were talking about the pandemic, not the election. Court decisions on the pandemic have been consistently against state actions to control the pandemic.
America is a beautiful country - one that is regularly shat on by foreigners who know nothing of it, and one whose citizens sometimes forget how privileged they are. Having lived in the U.S., I fondly remember a lot of its great points.
The upshot is the US has a culture that relatively speaking is not interested in restrictions and glorifies in rebelling against “the man.” You see it throughout the culture. The tolerance that other countries have for fairly draconian measures to control COVID just doesn’t exist to a large extent.I don’t think this is true. You wouldn’t have laws if it was. When I have visited, I have been surprised at how prescriptive life is there. I think you do have draconian measures, but that they are different types of draconian measures to the ones we are happy with here.
The upshot is the US has a culture that relatively speaking is not interested in restrictions and glorifies in rebelling against “the man.” You see it throughout the culture. The tolerance that other countries have for fairly draconian measures to control COVID just doesn’t exist to a large extent.I don’t think this is true. You wouldn’t have laws if it was. When I have visited, I have been surprised at how prescriptive life is there. I think you do have draconian measures, but that they are different types of draconian measures to the ones we are happy with here.
One that seems strange to me is jaywalking. In England I have the right to pass and repass along the Queen's highway as I like as long as I am not obstructing traffic. The idea that someone should restrict my right to walk along or across the road wherever I like is odd. That they should do so in the "land of the free" is even odder. "Jaywalking" doesn't even have an equivalent word in English English, let alone being a criminal offence.
One that seems strange to me is jaywalking. In England I have the right to pass and repass along the Queen's highway as I like as long as I am not obstructing traffic. The idea that someone should restrict my right to walk along or across the road wherever I like is odd. That they should do so in the "land of the free" is even odder. "Jaywalking" doesn't even have an equivalent word in English English, let alone being a criminal offence.That's exactly the type of thing I'm talking about. A completely different example is elections. Our politicians can call elections within certain boundaries (they are only elected for a certain number of years, so the election must be held before that time period is up...), but in the US a number of elections (maybe all) are held on prescribed dates.
The upshot is the US has a culture that relatively speaking is not interested in restrictions and glorifies in rebelling against “the man.” You see it throughout the culture. The tolerance that other countries have for fairly draconian measures to control COVID just doesn’t exist to a large extent.I don’t think this is true. You wouldn’t have laws if it was. When I have visited, I have been surprised at how prescriptive life is there. I think you do have draconian measures, but that they are different types of draconian measures to the ones we are happy with here.
The police have pretty much said that aren't interested in enforcing mask mandates, anyway.
Are laws are enforced more vigorously on some parts of the population? Could this be one cause of black lives matter problems?The upshot is the US has a culture that relatively speaking is not interested in restrictions and glorifies in rebelling against “the man.” You see it throughout the culture. The tolerance that other countries have for fairly draconian measures to control COVID just doesn’t exist to a large extent.I don’t think this is true. You wouldn’t have laws if it was. When I have visited, I have been surprised at how prescriptive life is there. I think you do have draconian measures, but that they are different types of draconian measures to the ones we are happy with here.
Thanks for the note and I appreciate a different opinion.
Laws aren’t the point. Obedience to them and enforcement are. And things have changed over the last 20 or so years. Drug laws are observed in the breach if at all, as are a lot of other laws proscribing nonviolent behavior. While I personally don’t like the theft and fraud aspects of that, we are where we are. And it’s not a blue/ red thing. For example, the state of Connecticut passed a law requiring the registration of certain rifles after the Sandy Hook killings. The compliance rate was laughably low. The state estimated there were roughly 372,000 of them in the state before the law. A little over 50,000 were registered.
The police have pretty much said that aren't interested in enforcing mask mandates, anyway.
This is my largest complaint in the USA. Even the rules that we do have are not enforced. But I guess that is also true for a bunch of other laws and regulations.
The police have pretty much said that aren't interested in enforcing mask mandates, anyway.
This is my largest complaint in the USA. Even the rules that we do have are not enforced. But I guess that is also true for a bunch of other laws and regulations.
I see it differently. We am extraordinarily free society in practice as a result.
The police have pretty much said that aren't interested in enforcing mask mandates, anyway.
This is my largest complaint in the USA. Even the rules that we do have are not enforced. But I guess that is also true for a bunch of other laws and regulations.
I see it differently. We am extraordinarily free society in practice as a result.
An extraordinarily free society with cyclists/pedestrians getting mowed down by motorists and civilians getting mowed down by rampage shooters that acquired their weapons through straw-sales. Yup, so much freedom.
Obviously you’re not happy with the status quo. Freedom is a risk as well as a reward. So, why not exercise your right to vote with your feet? There are states that are comparatively “woke” and others that aren’t interested. Move to the environment that suits you and everyone is happy.
The upshot is the US has a culture that relatively speaking is not interested in restrictions and glorifies in rebelling against “the man.” You see it throughout the culture. The tolerance that other countries have for fairly draconian measures to control COVID just doesn’t exist to a large extent.
I don’t think this is true. You wouldn’t have laws if it was. When I have visited, I have been surprised at how prescriptive life is there. I think you do have draconian measures, but that they are different types of draconian measures to the ones we are happy with here.
I can't imagine sticking it for 18 years in a country I despise. If you're only in it for the tech money you might as well move to Dubai, you'll make more there and can escape faster.Obviously you’re not happy with the status quo. Freedom is a risk as well as a reward. So, why not exercise your right to vote with your feet? There are states that are comparatively “woke” and others that aren’t interested. Move to the environment that suits you and everyone is happy.
More woke than Oregon? Or do you mean a different nation state? Because I plan to do that as soon as I have milked nine more years of west-coast tech salary.
I can't imagine sticking it for 18 years in a country I despise. If you're only in it for the tech money you might as well move to Dubai, you'll make more there and can escape faster.Obviously you’re not happy with the status quo. Freedom is a risk as well as a reward. So, why not exercise your right to vote with your feet? There are states that are comparatively “woke” and others that aren’t interested. Move to the environment that suits you and everyone is happy.
More woke than Oregon? Or do you mean a different nation state? Because I plan to do that as soon as I have milked nine more years of west-coast tech salary.
Life anywhere is prescriptive - we all have laws. Different countries and states have decided on different ways to do things. When you visit a place, you notice differences. This doesn’t make either set of laws better than the others - each society has decided to live slightly differently.
For instance, we drive on the left. Many tourists visit the Great Ocean Road, and there are now signs all the way along it reminding people to drive on the left because visitors often start driving on the wrong side of the road and cause collisions. They also stop in the middle of the road to look at the koalas, and cause chaos. I noticed a lot of people stopping in the middle of the road to look at black bears when I was in North America, but people in Australia don’t tend to stop in the middle of the road, so we’re not expecting it when visitors do.
You notice laws that are different to the ones you’re used to, and you find them a bit jarring if you need to continually adjust - getting into the opposite side of the car and driving on the opposite side of the road obviously fit into that category. Sometimes differences are more of a problem. When you’re walking, the opposite road rules can make you more likely to be run over because you check the traffic in the opposite direction most.
People from the US continually say that they have more freedom, so I possibly find the extra rules there more unexpected than elsewhere.
The upshot is the US has a culture that relatively speaking is not interested in restrictions and glorifies in rebelling against “the man.” You see it throughout the culture. The tolerance that other countries have for fairly draconian measures to control COVID just doesn’t exist to a large extent.I don’t think this is true. You wouldn’t have laws if it was. When I have visited, I have been surprised at how prescriptive life is there. I think you do have draconian measures, but that they are different types of draconian measures to the ones we are happy with here.
Strangely, it's also accepted that if you fail to give way and hit someone's car, you are only issued the same "failure to give way" fine of $390 and you don't get any extra panelty for hitting someone's car. If you're poor and can't pay for insurance you get off free because we have very high judgment/sheriff enforcement costs. Even in cases where people KILL people through negligent driving, as long as there's no alcohol, speeding or intoxication at stake, there's no jail sentence.
...
In the U.S., speeding is enforced much less harshly - in fact some states still happily allow radar jammers - but if you get in an accident and cause injury or death, the judicial punishment/fine is much greater.
One that seems strange to me is jaywalking. In England I have the right to pass and repass along the Queen's highway as I like as long as I am not obstructing traffic. The idea that someone should restrict my right to walk along or across the road wherever I like is odd. That they should do so in the "land of the free" is even odder. "Jaywalking" doesn't even have an equivalent word in English English, let alone being a criminal offence.That's exactly the type of thing I'm talking about. A completely different example is elections. Our politicians can call elections within certain boundaries (they are only elected for a certain number of years, so the election must be held before that time period is up...), but in the US a number of elections (maybe all) are held on prescribed dates.
I was visiting all the great lakes while I was in Canada, and I realised that one of them (Lake Michigan?) was totally in the US. I figured I could cross into the US (I had a visa), drive down to Lake Michigan, have lunch at a nice spot by the lake, and come back into Canada to continue my perambulations. The guy at the border had to have an address that I was staying at in the US to fill out his paperwork. The fact that I was booked into the Canadian border town that night wasn't good enough.
Obviously you’re not happy with the status quo. Freedom is a risk as well as a reward. So, why not exercise your right to vote with your feet? There are states that are comparatively “woke” and others that aren’t interested. Move to the environment that suits you and everyone is happy.
More woke than Oregon? Or do you mean a different nation state? Because I plan to do that as soon as I have milked nine more years of west-coast tech salary.
One that seems strange to me is jaywalking. In England I have the right to pass and repass along the Queen's highway as I like as long as I am not obstructing traffic. The idea that someone should restrict my right to walk along or across the road wherever I like is odd. That they should do so in the "land of the free" is even odder. "Jaywalking" doesn't even have an equivalent word in English English, let alone being a criminal offence.
That's what happens in Iqaluit! However, in Australia, and England it isn't a crime if you do it. And, in Australia, if you get run over, it is the driver's fault.One that seems strange to me is jaywalking. In England I have the right to pass and repass along the Queen's highway as I like as long as I am not obstructing traffic. The idea that someone should restrict my right to walk along or across the road wherever I like is odd. That they should do so in the "land of the free" is even odder. "Jaywalking" doesn't even have an equivalent word in English English, let alone being a criminal offence.
So in England you can just walk out into traffic and everyone stops?
Yes.One that seems strange to me is jaywalking. In England I have the right to pass and repass along the Queen's highway as I like as long as I am not obstructing traffic. The idea that someone should restrict my right to walk along or across the road wherever I like is odd. That they should do so in the "land of the free" is even odder. "Jaywalking" doesn't even have an equivalent word in English English, let alone being a criminal offence.
So in England you can just walk out into traffic and everyone stops?
One that seems strange to me is jaywalking. In England I have the right to pass and repass along the Queen's highway as I like as long as I am not obstructing traffic. The idea that someone should restrict my right to walk along or across the road wherever I like is odd. That they should do so in the "land of the free" is even odder. "Jaywalking" doesn't even have an equivalent word in English English, let alone being a criminal offence.
So in England you can just walk out into traffic and everyone stops?
Hey, I was impressed when we moved to Pittsburgh and cars generally stopped at red lights! Before that we lived in Miami where people had a more laissez faire approach to traffic laws.
Sometimes I wonder if the right answer would have been to mandate absolutely nothing, let 2-3 million die and be done with it. Sure we would have had to prop up the life insurance industry and get Costco in the coffin business, but that's small potatoes compared to what's going on now.Costco is already in the casket business. I actually used a different company bc they can ship in 2 days. The bottleneck is not coffins but even for cremation a funeral home needs to accept the body to dispose of according to wishes. There might be exceptions say if you live on family farm and bury, but doesn't apply to most. Another bottleneck are healthcare staff esp respiratory techs and other qualified folks for these covid wards.
Of course we'll never know.
Sorry what was the question?
Oh yes, strict lockdowns and martial law. Never gonna happen.
Sometimes I wonder if the right answer would have been to mandate absolutely nothing, let 2-3 million die and be done with it. Sure we would have had to prop up the life insurance industry and get Costco in the coffin business, but that's small potatoes compared to what's going on now.Costco is already in the casket business. I actually used a different company bc they can ship in 2 days. The bottleneck is not coffins but even for cremation a funeral home needs to accept the body to dispose of according to wishes. There might be exceptions say if you live on family farm and bury, but doesn't apply to most. Another bottleneck are healthcare staff esp respiratory techs and other qualified folks for these covid wards.
Of course we'll never know.
Sorry what was the question?
Oh yes, strict lockdowns and martial law. Never gonna happen.
Hey, I was impressed when we moved to Pittsburgh and cars generally stopped at red lights! Before that we lived in Miami where people had a more laissez faire approach to traffic laws.
No kidding.
I live in the Midwest but our family has often gone to FL for vacations. In the midwest I can probably count on one hand the number of people I have seen who blatantly run red lights.
In FL, it's basically all the damn time.