Author Topic: Candidate tax returns: who cares?  (Read 14359 times)

zephyr911

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2016, 02:33:56 PM »
Whatever you want to try and claim with this attack, DT did not make the rules, there can be no hypocrisy with him attacking the rules.

I couldn't agree more, except that he also attacks others who play by the rules as lazy, freeloaders, etc.

LennStar

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2016, 03:03:37 PM »
If you think he should owe more than the law says he does, that's not a personal failing on his part, it's a failure of our tax code to assess a fair amount of tax for someone in his position.
The part that people get angry is that this tax code is always written by those people who are the most favorites of that same code. If you write laws to just benefit yourself without caring for anyone else (except your peers), lots of people don't like that.
Its no difference if that person is named Trump, Clinton, Bush or Kennedy. Its always the same "elite".
In Trumps case, he is just that awesome Difference Between Words and Doings. His taxes are a very visible part of that.

btw you should consider putting up comedists as candidates. They are better at being a joke and way better politicians. Just look at Rejkjavik.

LeRainDrop

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2016, 07:56:43 PM »
He will release his taxes when Hillary releases the 30,000+ e-mails she destroyed.

Has he stated that quid pro quo?

Yes, at the first presidential debate on September 26, Trump confirmed that he will release his tax returns when the audit is completed.  He then added, "I will release my tax returns — against my lawyer's wishes — when [Clinton] releases her 33,000 emails that have been deleted.  As soon as she releases them, I will release, I will release my tax returns, and that's against -- my lawyers, they say, 'don't do it.'  I will tell you this.  No -- in fact, watching shows, they’re reading the papers.  Almost every lawyer says, you don't release your returns until the audit's complete.  When the audit's complete, I'll do it.  But I would go against them if she releases her e-mails."  http://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/26/trump-i-will-release-my-tax-returns-when-clinton-releases-deleted-emails.html

deadlymonkey

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2016, 09:33:07 AM »
There was an interesting article that Trump can release his 2015 returns since they are not under audit.  He has a 6 month filing extension (most very complex taxpayers get this) which means his 2015 return is due on the 17th of October.  His returns are not turned in yet so they are not under audit.  He can release his returns the day he files.  No excuse.

radram

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2016, 09:57:07 AM »
There was an interesting article that Trump can release his 2015 returns since they are not under audit.  He has a 6 month filing extension (most very complex taxpayers get this) which means his 2015 return is due on the 17th of October.  His returns are not turned in yet so they are not under audit.  He can release his returns the day he files.  No excuse.

From earlier in thread:

Serious question.  At what point is someone generally informed that they are being audited?  Trump announced his candidacy in the middle of last year.  I assume he didn't file his 2015 taxes until sometime between January and October 2016.  Is there a such thing as an automatic audit?  It seems to me that there would have been some time frame between his filing the return and finding out he was audited (even if he knew it was coming).

There is talk(read completely unsubstantiated rumor) of a "Big Announcement" regarding Trump and his taxes.  Some have already spoiled it by telling the possible tale, so it probably won't happen even if it was ever a plan.

Here is the scenario:
Let's say Trump filed an extension for 2015.  Fairly common practice. No big deal.  So he files on October 15th for the 2015 tax year, and there is no way he is under an immediate audit for that year, so he releases the 2015 tax return immediately.  What do we find?  Well, of course we find the most charitable tax payer in the history of man.  HUGE donations to charities, no loss carryovers, huge profits.  You know, a real job creator and overall swell guy. Probably gives generously to puppies.  After the election, win or lose, he files an amended return.  Those charities, oops... looked at the wrong line item.  Loss carryover..... how did I forget that?  My bad.  All good now.  Bring on the audit.  I am completely legal.....and I fired those bozo's over at Dewey Cheetum and How for the gross mix-up.

I would love to see the ridiculousness of it all.  If he does it, and we buy it, and he wins, then I want him to be president. FOREVER.

To add further, who say's any released tax return actually is the return that was filed.  Can't he just release a return(bogus), change it, and then file it.  He would't need an amended return.  Wouldn't the IRS still be forbidden to comment on whether the released return is the same as the files one?

deadlymonkey

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2016, 10:09:31 AM »
There was an interesting article that Trump can release his 2015 returns since they are not under audit.  He has a 6 month filing extension (most very complex taxpayers get this) which means his 2015 return is due on the 17th of October.  His returns are not turned in yet so they are not under audit.  He can release his returns the day he files.  No excuse.

From earlier in thread:

Serious question.  At what point is someone generally informed that they are being audited?  Trump announced his candidacy in the middle of last year.  I assume he didn't file his 2015 taxes until sometime between January and October 2016.  Is there a such thing as an automatic audit?  It seems to me that there would have been some time frame between his filing the return and finding out he was audited (even if he knew it was coming).

There is talk(read completely unsubstantiated rumor) of a "Big Announcement" regarding Trump and his taxes.  Some have already spoiled it by telling the possible tale, so it probably won't happen even if it was ever a plan.

Here is the scenario:
Let's say Trump filed an extension for 2015.  Fairly common practice. No big deal.  So he files on October 15th for the 2015 tax year, and there is no way he is under an immediate audit for that year, so he releases the 2015 tax return immediately.  What do we find?  Well, of course we find the most charitable tax payer in the history of man.  HUGE donations to charities, no loss carryovers, huge profits.  You know, a real job creator and overall swell guy. Probably gives generously to puppies.  After the election, win or lose, he files an amended return.  Those charities, oops... looked at the wrong line item.  Loss carryover..... how did I forget that?  My bad.  All good now.  Bring on the audit.  I am completely legal.....and I fired those bozo's over at Dewey Cheetum and How for the gross mix-up.

I would love to see the ridiculousness of it all.  If he does it, and we buy it, and he wins, then I want him to be president. FOREVER.

To add further, who say's any released tax return actually is the return that was filed.  Can't he just release a return(bogus), change it, and then file it.  He would't need an amended return.  Wouldn't the IRS still be forbidden to comment on whether the released return is the same as the files one?

True, you can also file an amended return after the fact.  In 2012 Romney made a vow to pay an effective tax rate of 13% at least.  He did not take deductions he was entitled to in order to meet that mark.  I will bet anyone that shortly thereafter he submitted an amended return taking the full deduction.  Trump could do the same thing....See I didn't take deductions and paid a lot of taxes to support the government......and then immediately file an amended return where he pays nothing.

LeRainDrop

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #56 on: October 10, 2016, 10:49:56 PM »
Countering Trump's allegations, Warren Buffet released a statement and his tax data on Monday:  http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-10/buffett-challenges-trump-on-taxes-discloses-2015-return-data

marty998

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2016, 05:30:53 AM »
He will release his taxes when Hillary releases the 30,000+ e-mails she destroyed.

Has he stated that quid pro quo?

Yes, at the first presidential debate on September 26, Trump confirmed that he will release his tax returns when the audit is completed.  He then added, "I will release my tax returns — against my lawyer's wishes — when [Clinton] releases her 33,000 emails that have been deleted.  As soon as she releases them, I will release, I will release my tax returns, and that's against -- my lawyers, they say, 'don't do it.'  I will tell you this.  No -- in fact, watching shows, they’re reading the papers.  Almost every lawyer says, you don't release your returns until the audit's complete.  When the audit's complete, I'll do it.  But I would go against them if she releases her e-mails."  http://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/26/trump-i-will-release-my-tax-returns-when-clinton-releases-deleted-emails.html

Help me please with the logic

"I will release my tax returns — against my lawyer's wishes — when [Clinton] releases her 33,000 emails that have been deleted."


1) How can Hillary release 33,000 deleted emails? If they're deleted, they're deleted right? If DT thinks she has copies of them, why would HC actually have copies of old emails?

2) Even if she has the emails, would it not be illegal for her to release them if they contained classified information?

radram

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2016, 06:15:04 AM »
He will release his taxes when Hillary releases the 30,000+ e-mails she destroyed.

Has he stated that quid pro quo?

Yes, at the first presidential debate on September 26, Trump confirmed that he will release his tax returns when the audit is completed.  He then added, "I will release my tax returns — against my lawyer's wishes — when [Clinton] releases her 33,000 emails that have been deleted.  As soon as she releases them, I will release, I will release my tax returns, and that's against -- my lawyers, they say, 'don't do it.'  I will tell you this.  No -- in fact, watching shows, they’re reading the papers.  Almost every lawyer says, you don't release your returns until the audit's complete.  When the audit's complete, I'll do it.  But I would go against them if she releases her e-mails."  http://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/26/trump-i-will-release-my-tax-returns-when-clinton-releases-deleted-emails.html

Help me please with the logic

"I will release my tax returns — against my lawyer's wishes — when [Clinton] releases her 33,000 emails that have been deleted."


1) How can Hillary release 33,000 deleted emails? If they're deleted, they're deleted right? If DT thinks she has copies of them, why would HC actually have copies of old emails?

2) Even if she has the emails, would it not be illegal for her to release them if they contained classified information?

On point 2, she would be charged no matter what the emails contained. She was already ordered to turn over all she had.  To my knowledge, she didn't RELEASE anything, she turned them over to the investigators, who released what they wanted to.

Either they no longer exist, never did exist, or she is committing a crime buy keeping them. Here is the question I can not explain:  How does anyone know there are 33,000 of them if they are gone?
 

GuitarStv

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #59 on: October 11, 2016, 06:24:48 AM »
He will release his taxes when Hillary releases the 30,000+ e-mails she destroyed.

Has he stated that quid pro quo?

Yes, at the first presidential debate on September 26, Trump confirmed that he will release his tax returns when the audit is completed.  He then added, "I will release my tax returns — against my lawyer's wishes — when [Clinton] releases her 33,000 emails that have been deleted.  As soon as she releases them, I will release, I will release my tax returns, and that's against -- my lawyers, they say, 'don't do it.'  I will tell you this.  No -- in fact, watching shows, they’re reading the papers.  Almost every lawyer says, you don't release your returns until the audit's complete.  When the audit's complete, I'll do it.  But I would go against them if she releases her e-mails."  http://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/26/trump-i-will-release-my-tax-returns-when-clinton-releases-deleted-emails.html

Help me please with the logic

"I will release my tax returns — against my lawyer's wishes — when [Clinton] releases her 33,000 emails that have been deleted."


1) How can Hillary release 33,000 deleted emails? If they're deleted, they're deleted right? If DT thinks she has copies of them, why would HC actually have copies of old emails?

2) Even if she has the emails, would it not be illegal for her to release them if they contained classified information?

On point 2, she would be charged no matter what the emails contained. She was already ordered to turn over all she had.  To my knowledge, she didn't RELEASE anything, she turned them over to the investigators, who released what they wanted to.

Either they no longer exist, never did exist, or she is committing a crime buy keeping them. Here is the question I can not explain:  How does anyone know there are 33,000 of them if they are gone?

That's the beauty of claims by Donald Trump.  It sounds like he has some kind of special insider information (just like it did when he knew for certain that Obama wasn't American).  He doesn't actually know anything . . . but by putting the suggestion out there he gets to turn his total lack of knowledge into a talking point problem for his opponent because somehow there are a large number of people who will run with the ridiculous things he says (even though he's been shown to be a consistent liar for this whole election cycle).

tonysemail

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2016, 10:50:07 AM »
Countering Trump's allegations, Warren Buffet released a statement and his tax data on Monday:  http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-10/buffett-challenges-trump-on-taxes-discloses-2015-return-data

where do you actually see buffet's tax return?
there are a lot of syndicated news stories reporting the numbers.
But I didn't find a link to the actual tax return.

FWIW - here's a good story about how Buffet minimizes taxes.
Ran into it while searching for his tax return.
http://www.barrons.com/articles/warren-buffetts-nifty-tax-loophole-1428726092

radram

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2016, 01:11:20 PM »
Countering Trump's allegations, Warren Buffet released a statement and his tax data on Monday:  http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-10/buffett-challenges-trump-on-taxes-discloses-2015-return-data

where do you actually see buffet's tax return?
there are a lot of syndicated news stories reporting the numbers.
But I didn't find a link to the actual tax return.

FWIW - here's a good story about how Buffet minimizes taxes.
Ran into it while searching for his tax return.
http://www.barrons.com/articles/warren-buffetts-nifty-tax-loophole-1428726092

As far as I can see, he did not release his personal tax returns.  He OFFERED to release them, ALL OF THEM, since the 1940's.  He then released figures from his recent returns that showed he had billions of charitable contributions that were not deducted, because he reached the limit for that deduction.  He released the amount of taxes he paid.  He also stated that he NEVER used the carry forward loss that Trump accused him of using.  A lie disproved with facts.  No big deal, I am used to it.

It is worthy to note that Buffet's CORPORATION, Berkshire Hathaway, IS on record of using laws with a similar result to the carryover rule (in the example of the article a deferred law among others), to minimize their tax liability. Berkshire is a publicly traded company.  All of these uses are disclosed in required reporting methods of all public companies.   

It is interesting to note that to date, I see ZERO requests to have Trumps PRIVATE companies begin to release information regarding taxes, and with good reason.  It IS requested that Trump disclose dealings that may be a conflict with regard to his roll as future president, something he has so far refused to do, or do not exist.  If Trump is suggesting he wants a detailed comparison of Berkshire and the Trump Organization, I say YES, lets do that!  Neva Gonna Happen!

The beginning of the article you link simply shows what is available for everyone.  In fact, everyone that purchases a stock and dies utilizes it.  When you die, the cost basis for all of your investments (currently excluding annuities) is automatically stepped up to the cost basis on the day of death.  It does not matter what you paid, as long as you die before you sell.  If you sell before you die, you are taxed at capital gains rates for your tax bracket (currently a max of 20%), after deducting the purchase price.  If it is never sold when you are alive, it is never taxed as a capital gain.  That is one big reason why Buffet's answer to his favorite holding period is forever.  Because it is never taxed.  As I said, this is available to everyone, and in fact benefits the little guy MORE, since he will never reach the $5.45 million threshold required to pay any taxes.

Any amount of your estate above $5.45 million ($11 million and some change for a married couple) has an estate tax (with a current federal max of 40%), but very possibly NEVER a capital gain tax assessed.

It is worthy to note that the 0.01% you may be earning in a checking account or bond (.4%)  is taxed as income with a max rate of 39.6%, but most dividends are considered qualified and are taxed a max rate of 20%, which amounts to exactly $0.00 for married couple making less than $75,300.  Where to you want YOUR income coming from?




libertarian4321

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2016, 02:04:33 PM »
I don't have a problem with Trump carrying forward a loss, as long as it was legitimate.  That's just the way the tax code works.

However, Trump is a dangerously unstable candidate who can not be trusted as President.  I could never vote for him.

Nor can I support a corrupt, warmongering candidate I disagree with on almost everything (Hillary).

So I'll be voting for Libertarian Governor Gary Johnson.  It's an easy choice.

LennStar

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #63 on: October 12, 2016, 01:56:37 AM »
It is worthy to note that Buffet's CORPORATION, Berkshire Hathaway, IS on record of using laws with a similar result to the carryover rule (in the example of the article a deferred law among others), to minimize their tax liability. Berkshire is a publicly traded company.  All of these uses are disclosed in required reporting methods of all public companies.
As a publicly traded company Berkshire is REQUIRED BY LAW to use all available (legal) tax loops. If they dont use it the managers are liable to damage claims from the stockholders.
Thats one reason why I do not like the neoliberal stockholder model of companies and prefer the old fashioned stakeholder model.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #64 on: October 12, 2016, 06:42:42 AM »

As a publicly traded company Berkshire is REQUIRED BY LAW to use all available (legal) tax loops.
No, it's required to act in the best interests of shareholders.
If a certain multinational coffee chain paid no tax in Europe because it claimed that a subsidiary in Switzerland owned the rights to the name and charged itself $5 for each cup sold - this is good tax avoidance.
If the public backlash led to a continent wide boycott of the chain and the torching of a few stores - this isn't necessarily good management.

Enhancing shareholder value doesn't require you to break all laws where the fine is smaller than the gain to the business.

GuitarStv

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2016, 06:45:39 AM »
Enhancing shareholder value doesn't require you to break all laws where the fine is smaller than the gain to the business.

Enhancing shareholder value requires you to break all laws where the fine is smaller than the gain to the business and it doesn't look like there will be tremendous public backlash.

LennStar

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2016, 01:19:25 PM »
Enhancing shareholder value doesn't require you to break all laws where the fine is smaller than the gain to the business.

Enhancing shareholder value requires you to break all laws where the fine is smaller than the gain to the business and it doesn't look like there will be tremendous public backlash.
That reminds me - why? - of Deutsche Bank with 2 digit billions set aside for lawsuits. And one of their managers that said if the risk is smaller then the costs, they do it.

marty998

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2016, 02:02:18 PM »
Enhancing shareholder value doesn't require you to break all laws where the fine is smaller than the gain to the business.

Enhancing shareholder value requires you to break all laws where the fine is smaller than the gain to the business and it doesn't look like there will be tremendous public backlash.
That reminds me - why? - of Deutsche Bank with 2 digit billions set aside for lawsuits. And one of their managers that said if the risk is smaller then the costs, they do it.

Being ethically bankrupt doesn't make you a good capitalist manager. It makes you a shit person.

No more no less.

RangerOne

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #68 on: October 12, 2016, 02:49:18 PM »
At this point I just want to see his tax returns to see the asshole be embarrassed. Trump has been guarding his financials for a long time well before he was in this race. Most likely I think he is trying to hide the revelation that all said an done he is not a billionaire like he would have all the magazines believe. Its all about Trump and he his image as a very wealthy powerful smart man is all he has. Because in reality he is completely unexceptional in anything but his bluster.

I don't think revealing his taxes would hurt or help him much at this point politically. Maybe large sums of money getting tied to Russian and Chinese banks might lose him some independent votes. I suspect that the majority of his base, don't care about any revelation his tax returns could bring.

ender

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #69 on: October 12, 2016, 06:33:50 PM »
I was sort of surprised, if only for a moment, that he didn't just declare in the middle of the debate, "I will release them" instead of getting all.... Trump like on it.

msilenus

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #70 on: October 12, 2016, 07:09:30 PM »
I was sort of surprised, if only for a moment, that he didn't just declare in the middle of the debate, "I will release them" instead of getting all.... Trump like on it.

I'm perpetually surprised that he doesn't claim that he's already released them and that they prove he pays lots of tax and follows all the laws.

He makes everything else up as he goes along --why is he letting objective reality hold him back on just this?

deadlymonkey

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #71 on: October 13, 2016, 11:54:45 AM »
At this point I just want to see his tax returns to see the asshole be embarrassed. Trump has been guarding his financials for a long time well before he was in this race. Most likely I think he is trying to hide the revelation that all said an done he is not a billionaire like he would have all the magazines believe. Its all about Trump and he his image as a very wealthy powerful smart man is all he has. Because in reality he is completely unexceptional in anything but his bluster.

I don't think revealing his taxes would hurt or help him much at this point politically. Maybe large sums of money getting tied to Russian and Chinese banks might lose him some independent votes. I suspect that the majority of his base, don't care about any revelation his tax returns could bring.

True, his base will never desert him fully especially over taxes.  The only thing that Trump really cares about is self image.  If his taxes show that he is not as wealthy as he claims (and the NYT story about that is true...) there is no way he will ever release them and confirm that he is a sham.  If he pays no taxes......he is smart, if has Russian and Chinese connections.....he is a successful international businessman......if he is only worth a fraction of his claim....????

LennStar

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #72 on: October 17, 2016, 03:24:41 PM »
  He could use his power to create advantageous situations for himself and his businesses and we would have no way of knowing.
Is there really a meaningful difference in Trump doing that without you knowing where, but knowing he will do it; and Hillary where you know she already has done it?

Gin1984

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #73 on: October 18, 2016, 06:50:07 AM »
  He could use his power to create advantageous situations for himself and his businesses and we would have no way of knowing.
Is there really a meaningful difference in Trump doing that without you knowing where, but knowing he will do it; and Hillary where you know she already has done it?
Actually she followed all the requests by the Obama administration in regards to her investments.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #74 on: October 18, 2016, 09:46:01 PM »
  He could use his power to create advantageous situations for himself and his businesses and we would have no way of knowing.
Is there really a meaningful difference in Trump doing that without you knowing where, but knowing he will do it; and Hillary where you know she already has done it?

I don't know what specifically you are talking about,
The point wasn't about tax returns, it was that with Trump you know every decision will simply be whatever benefits Trump Corp.
With Clinton every decision will be whatever benefits Google/Apple/Goldman-Sachs and all the other backers - which is much harder to predict.

Nothing partisan in this, with Bush-Cheney it was whatever benefited Blackwater/Haliburton - at least with Wall St and Silicon Valley you don't have to start a war to help them out of a bad quarter.

LennStar

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #75 on: October 19, 2016, 02:40:59 AM »
  He could use his power to create advantageous situations for himself and his businesses and we would have no way of knowing.
Is there really a meaningful difference in Trump doing that without you knowing where, but knowing he will do it; and Hillary where you know she already has done it?

I don't know what specifically you are talking about, Hillary is not president yet, and she released all her tax returns.  Post a link and I'll read it, as long as it's a reputable source.
As nobodyspecial said it was not about tax returns. It was about general "create advantageous situations for him/herself". And specifically I thought about Lady Clinton getting all those very well paid speeches in front of bankers where she says the opposite of what she tells to the "normal" people.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #76 on: October 19, 2016, 08:43:39 PM »
  He could use his power to create advantageous situations for himself and his businesses and we would have no way of knowing.
Is there really a meaningful difference in Trump doing that without you knowing where, but knowing he will do it; and Hillary where you know she already has done it?

I don't know what specifically you are talking about,
The point wasn't about tax returns, it was that with Trump you know every decision will simply be whatever benefits Trump Corp.
With Clinton every decision will be whatever benefits Google/Apple/Goldman-Sachs and all the other backers - which is much harder to predict.

Nothing partisan in this, with Bush-Cheney it was whatever benefited Blackwater/Haliburton - at least with Wall St and Silicon Valley you don't have to start a war to help them out of a bad quarter.

I actually would love if Hillary did things to support Google / Apple / Goldman Sachs.  I have the majority of my money in the S&P 500 so I have a ton of money in these companies.

Hopefully she will be as successful as her husband in removing financial regulation. Perhaps something like the CFMA extended to remove government from all Wall St activities.

« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 08:33:30 PM by nobodyspecial »

LennStar

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Re: Candidate tax returns: who cares?
« Reply #77 on: October 20, 2016, 02:09:07 PM »
Haha, yes! The last crash was not bad enough, there were still some smoldering ruins standing. You need even more WOOOMMPP for wholesale destruction!

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!