Author Topic: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election  (Read 31765 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #100 on: September 19, 2019, 09:19:55 AM »
Hey all, just found this website. 
Not sure why the odds of the LPC winning most seats jumped by over 10% yesterday. Perhaps a mistake?



Canadians are fans of brown face?

:P



That website is a great explanation of why we need proportional representation in our politics.  63.3% chance of a majority Liberal government, 0.8% difference between the expected number of votes between the Liberals and Conservatives.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 09:23:32 AM by GuitarStv »

Ottawa

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #101 on: September 19, 2019, 09:21:49 AM »


Canadians are fans of brown face?

:P

errr...that was my reaction

Wrenchturner

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #102 on: September 19, 2019, 09:30:59 AM »
Goddammit Trudeau.

Ugh.  But he apologized (an actual apology). 

Will this actually hurt his campaign??
Trudeau's liberals are much less racist than Scheer's conservatives.
Can you explain why you think this?  I haven't seen a photo of sheer in brownface.

GuitarStv

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #103 on: September 19, 2019, 10:03:03 AM »
Goddammit Trudeau.

Ugh.  But he apologized (an actual apology). 

Will this actually hurt his campaign??
Trudeau's liberals are much less racist than Scheer's conservatives.
Can you explain why you think this?  I haven't seen a photo of sheer in brownface.

He has made a lot of allowances for racist behaviour and comments made by members of the conservative party:  https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservative-candidates-scheer-plane-1.5284304

Wrenchturner

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #104 on: September 22, 2019, 07:48:14 AM »
Goddammit Trudeau.

Ugh.  But he apologized (an actual apology). 

Will this actually hurt his campaign??
Trudeau's liberals are much less racist than Scheer's conservatives.
Can you explain why you think this?  I haven't seen a photo of sheer in brownface.

He has made a lot of allowances for racist behaviour and comments made by members of the conservative party:  https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservative-candidates-scheer-plane-1.5284304

So--let me get this straight--Trudeau isn't racist for caricaturing people of color, repeatedly, as an adult, but Scheer is racist because he would be willing to forgive the types of transgressions that Trudeau made...  Have I got that right?

GuitarStv

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #105 on: September 22, 2019, 08:22:24 AM »
Goddammit Trudeau.

Ugh.  But he apologized (an actual apology). 

Will this actually hurt his campaign??
Trudeau's liberals are much less racist than Scheer's conservatives.
Can you explain why you think this?  I haven't seen a photo of sheer in brownface.

He has made a lot of allowances for racist behaviour and comments made by members of the conservative party:  https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservative-candidates-scheer-plane-1.5284304

So--let me get this straight--Trudeau isn't racist for caricaturing people of color, repeatedly, as an adult, but Scheer is racist because he would be willing to forgive the types of transgressions that Trudeau made...  Have I got that right?

No, not at all.

Tudeau has committed multiple overtly racist acts by repeatedly dressing up in brown/black face.  As a leader and politician his policies and the people he has chosen for positions have generally been non-racist.

Scheer is kinda the opposite.  His party supports policy that hurts minorites, and he appears to be OK with forgiving racist comments/actions from it's members.  Scheer hasn't performed overtly racist actions himself though.

They both suck.  Sadly, our system guarantees that one of the two will be our next leader.

snacky

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #106 on: September 22, 2019, 08:24:43 AM »
They are both eligible for the racism Olympics. This has always been apparent. So, for the record, has every Canadian prime minister.  (This is not an excuse)

With options like these Canada loses, no matter who wins.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #107 on: September 22, 2019, 08:43:01 AM »
His party supports policy that hurts minorites, and he appears to be OK with forgiving racist comments/actions from it's members.

What makes you say the first statement?  That seems like a pretty serious allegation that warrants more explanation from you.  Is it causal, or correlative?  For instance--if a conservative suggests cutting a welfare payout of some kind, and most people on welfare are people of color(POC), is that a racist policy or an unfortunate correlation?  I'm sure bad actors have hidden behind these types of policies in the past but I don't think the reverse is necessarily true--I don't think reducing immigration numbers is a racist policy despite most immigrants being POC, for instance, and this mostly relies on a form of societal faith--I wouldn't make that assumption in 19th century southern US states, for instance. 

The second statement I'll agree was a little too generous to the point of irresponsibility.  But it does beg the question--if someone repents from their past bad behaviour, is the transgression not forgiven?  I think most people generally are not that excited about people digging up dirt from many years ago.  Especially when our social awareness has grown so dramatically through the publishing and curating of our lives--something that wasn't considered before social media.

GuitarStv

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #108 on: September 22, 2019, 12:51:55 PM »
His party supports policy that hurts minorites, and he appears to be OK with forgiving racist comments/actions from it's members.

What makes you say the first statement?  That seems like a pretty serious allegation that warrants more explanation from you. 

The conservative action refusing to allow new Muslim immigrants to wear head coverings while taking their oath of citizenship was a good example.  Fortunately they eventually lost their court battle defending that discriminatory policy.  https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/zunera-ishaq-niqab-ban-citizenship-oath-1.3257762

There was also the Conservative party idea of a 'barbaric cultural practices" hotline to report Muslims.
 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/02/canada-conservatives-barbaric-cultural-practices-hotline

Then there was the full complicity of the Conservative government with the US torture and violation of rights of a Muslim Canadian minor. . . eventually costing us a ten million dollar settlement and apology in a unanimous Supreme Court decision about Omar Khadr.



Is it causal, or correlative?  For instance--if a conservative suggests cutting a welfare payout of some kind, and most people on welfare are people of color(POC), is that a racist policy or an unfortunate correlation?  I'm sure bad actors have hidden behind these types of policies in the past but I don't think the reverse is necessarily true--I don't think reducing immigration numbers is a racist policy despite most immigrants being POC, for instance, and this mostly relies on a form of societal faith--I wouldn't make that assumption in 19th century southern US states, for instance. 

There's certainly plenty in this category as well (much more so than for any other political party in Canada), but as you mentioned it's less overt.



The second statement I'll agree was a little too generous to the point of irresponsibility.  But it does beg the question--if someone repents from their past bad behaviour, is the transgression not forgiven?  I think most people generally are not that excited about people digging up dirt from many years ago.  Especially when our social awareness has grown so dramatically through the publishing and curating of our lives--something that wasn't considered before social media.

Sheer has totally accepted pretty egregious past racist behaviour from those in his party.  At the same time, he's howling about how it's unacceptable to accept past racist behaviour from Trudeau.  So as an apparent Sheer supported, I have to ask you . . . which is it?

I think Trudeau's actions were overtly racist.  I think the argument that he didn't know doing this was racist is bullshit.  Social media use and availability of images has certainly grown over the last thirty years, but the acceptability of dressing up in black face has not changed.  Is the transgression not forgiven?  Yes, sure it can be forgiven.  Trudeau's actions have been above board since his racist past.  But those actions should not be forgotten . . . and they should give anyone pause when thinking about his judgement.

ElleFiji

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #109 on: September 22, 2019, 08:29:43 PM »
Goddammit Trudeau.

Ugh.  But he apologized (an actual apology). 

Will this actually hurt his campaign??
Trudeau's liberals are much less racist than Scheer's conservatives.
Can you explain why you think this?  I haven't seen a photo of sheer in brownface.
I can explain why I think this, but not if it's a measurable objective fact.

I am referring to their mutual parties and voters not to the individual leaders. The deeply scary thing that I have seem rising in Ontario and Quebec (and hearing stories about it in other provinces) is the active recruitment of young white men into racist organizations which are supportive of the Conservative party and whose members easily identify with Andrew Scheer. I talked to Scheer's campaign dude about my observation and he agreed that they've seen the same thing and stated that they don't encourage it (thankfully). But for my conscience, if I knew that I'd become a rallying point for radicalized racists (and misogynist) groups I'd be doing a hell of a lot more to very publically and vocally disown the groups and try to get them shut down.

I'm completely and utterly sure that Trudeau has racist supporters. He's done some publicly racist things. But I haven't observed groups of radicalized racist groups supporting his party. I've only seen that with the Conservatives and the Bernier folks (and in my mind Bernie's party is much much worse). With the NDP I know of individual racist members and supporters but not support from a racist organization. I don't know enough about the intersection between racists and the Green party to have any significant comment.


I'd rather that my politicians compete to be the best and most inclusive. But that may not be an option this time around.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #110 on: September 22, 2019, 09:15:55 PM »
Being tone-deaf or insensitive (which is my assessment of Trudeau's cosplay) is not even close to the same thing as being racist. I think intent matters for nearly everything in such situations, and that this (presumably) Conservative-curated scandal is meaningless. I seriously doubt Trudeau has a stash of KKK robes--and even if he was a raging crypto-racist, what is his record on racial issues as PM? Must we all reflexively clutch our pearls because someone has put on some face paint?

Metalcat

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #111 on: September 23, 2019, 04:59:40 AM »
Goddammit Trudeau.

Ugh.  But he apologized (an actual apology). 

Will this actually hurt his campaign??
It will.

Trudeau's liberals are much less racist than Scheer's conservatives. But it is definitely concerning and not a coincidence that the whistleblower they crucified was a non white woman. And the timing is there,  and he was 29 from a wealthy political family with lots of exposure to other cultures.

It won't drive many votes to the Conservatives, but could drive votes ndp or Green in ridings where there's no hope of a win. If we had proportional representation the timing wouldn't matter as much

The thing is, it's not a zero sum game. Elections aren't won or lost based on people being driven towards or away from one party. Elections are won by mobilizing people to vote.

The people who were already going to vote and who might vote one way or another are not a deciding factor of anything. It's the people who might or might not vote, depending on if they feel strongly enough about anything on that given day.

So this will hurt the Liberals most by having a public that isn't necessarily against him, but also isn't passionately against Scheer, so they're ambivalent enough to just not bother lining up to vote for Trudeau even though they would probably vote for him if they did.

It's not about driving those votes to anyone. It's about those votes not turning up at all.

The Cons win if they can mobilize enough voters either for Scheer or against Trudeau to show up on election day.

A lot of people turned out to vote for Trudeau last time because they were motivated to vote against Harper. The biggest risk to Trudeau this time is that despite would-be Liberal voters disliking Scheer, he's not seen as enough of a force to get people off of their sofas to actually vote against him, and they don't love Trudeau enough to get out and vote *for* him this time around.

Likewise, Scheer isn't particularly popular, so he's depending on people voting against Trudeau, who isn't necessarily hated enough to mobilize huge swaths of moderate Cons to show up. 

This is what strategic voting leads to: hate based politics. It's also why it's really hard to predict what's going to happen. You can ask whomever you want who they would vote for, but it's not very good at predicting who will actually vote.

Personally, I'm voting Green because I refuse to vote against anything. It's not on me if Cons get elected, but it is on me to be a tiny part of sending a message that climate change is a major priority for Canadians.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 07:08:14 AM by Malkynn »

snacky

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #112 on: September 23, 2019, 06:58:07 AM »
Being tone-deaf or insensitive (which is my assessment of Trudeau's cosplay) is not even close to the same thing as being racist. I think intent matters for nearly everything in such situations, and that this (presumably) Conservative-curated scandal is meaningless. I seriously doubt Trudeau has a stash of KKK robes--and even if he was a raging crypto-racist, what is his record on racial issues as PM? Must we all reflexively clutch our pearls because someone has put on some face paint?

What I get from this is that racism doesn't affect you so you don't think it should affect anyone else. Must be nice.

ElleFiji

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #113 on: September 23, 2019, 07:21:56 AM »

The thing is, it's not a zero sum game. Elections aren't won or lost based on people being driven towards or away from one party. Elections are won by mobilizing people to vote.

The people who were already going to vote and who might vote one way or another are not a deciding factor of anything. It's the people who might or might not vote, depending on if they feel strongly enough about anything on that given day.

So this will hurt the Liberals most by having a public that isn't necessarily against him, but also isn't passionately against Scheer, so they're ambivalent enough to just not bother lining up to vote for Trudeau even though they would probably vote for him if they did.

It's not about driving those votes to anyone. It's about those votes not turning up at all.

The Cons win if they can mobilize enough voters either for Scheer or against Trudeau to show up on election day.

A lot of people turned out to vote for Trudeau last time because they were motivated to vote against Harper. The biggest risk to Trudeau this time is that despite would-be Liberal voters disliking Scheer, he's not seen as enough of a force to get people off of their sofas to actually vote against him, and they don't love Trudeau enough to get out and vote *for* him this time around.

Likewise, Scheer isn't particularly popular, so he's depending on people voting against Trudeau, who isn't necessarily hated enough to mobilize huge swaths of moderate Cons to show up. 

This is what strategic voting leads to: hate based politics. It's also why it's really hard to predict what's going to happen. You can ask whomever you want who they would vote for, but it's not very good at predicting who will actually vote.

Personally, I'm voting Green because I refuse to vote against anything. It's not on me if Cons get elected, but it is on me to be a tiny part of sending a message that climate change is a major priority for Canadians.
Smart Malkynn, good Malkynn

rocketpj

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #114 on: September 23, 2019, 05:00:09 PM »
The thing is, it's not a zero sum game. Elections aren't won or lost based on people being driven towards or away from one party. Elections are won by mobilizing people to vote.


I disagree.  Elections are won by demobilizing your opposition from voting.  In the US Trump got as many votes as Romney the election previous but they successfully demonized Clinton and caused her putative supporters to stay home.

The brownface stupidity (on the part of Trudeau) and the whipped up offense (on the part of C and many others) will have the same effect.  It is affecting me - I am very on the fence this election, voted L last time but really don't know who I will vote for this time.  And I am in a swing riding.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #115 on: September 23, 2019, 05:40:21 PM »
Being tone-deaf or insensitive (which is my assessment of Trudeau's cosplay) is not even close to the same thing as being racist. I think intent matters for nearly everything in such situations, and that this (presumably) Conservative-curated scandal is meaningless. I seriously doubt Trudeau has a stash of KKK robes--and even if he was a raging crypto-racist, what is his record on racial issues as PM? Must we all reflexively clutch our pearls because someone has put on some face paint?

What I get from this is that racism doesn't affect you so you don't think it should affect anyone else. Must be nice.
No, I'm saying that Trudeau (probably) did not do anything racist. He dressed in a manner that is consistent with a type of racist display but that is not its only interpretation. If I say a word in a foreign language I don't know and it happens to be a racist slur, is that an example of racism or unlucky ignorance? My assumption--barring any solid evidence of racist behavior--is he was tone-deaf on the issue, as I mentioned.

My second point is that if Trudeau is secretly racist in his role as PM, as long as that is not reflected in any of his policies, then his secret racism does not impact anyone. I'm surprised you thought this was all about me (I'm not even Canadian!).

Metalcat

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #116 on: September 23, 2019, 05:50:23 PM »
The thing is, it's not a zero sum game. Elections aren't won or lost based on people being driven towards or away from one party. Elections are won by mobilizing people to vote.


I disagree.  Elections are won by demobilizing your opposition from voting.  In the US Trump got as many votes as Romney the election previous but they successfully demonized Clinton and caused her putative supporters to stay home.

The brownface stupidity (on the part of Trudeau) and the whipped up offense (on the part of C and many others) will have the same effect.  It is affecting me - I am very on the fence this election, voted L last time but really don't know who I will vote for this time.  And I am in a swing riding.

Yes, mobilizing to vote vs demobilizing very much amounts to the same effect. The point I was making is that it's not as much about voters switching from one party to another as people think it is, it's about who shows up on election day and who doesn't.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #117 on: September 23, 2019, 06:18:24 PM »
The conservative action refusing to allow new Muslim immigrants to wear head coverings while taking their oath of citizenship was a good example.  Fortunately they eventually lost their court battle defending that discriminatory policy.  https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/zunera-ishaq-niqab-ban-citizenship-oath-1.3257762
Interesting that you believe this "hurts minorities".  It certainly shows a lack of respect for certain cultural norms, but I believe the niqab itself is more oppressive to vulnerable groups(namely women) than a policy that prevents their adornment.  I do not believe the niqab is commiserate with western values.  And I believe this policy affected minorities due to a correlation, not a causality(the motivation of the policy had little to do with the fact that Muslims are a minority in Canada).

Quote
There was also the Conservative party idea of a 'barbaric cultural practices" hotline to report Muslims.
 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/02/canada-conservatives-barbaric-cultural-practices-hotline
Perhaps more egregious, but given how Canadians are still occasionally subjected to arranged marriages, honor killings and FGM I don't think this is entirely out of line either.  Is Scheer suggesting an instatement of this hotline?

An opinion piece on the matter:
https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/malcolm-trudeaus-odd-statements-on-female-genital-mutilation-continue

Quote
Then there was the full complicity of the Conservative government with the US torture and violation of rights of a Muslim Canadian minor. . . eventually costing us a ten million dollar settlement and apology in a unanimous Supreme Court decision about Omar Khadr.
The Khadr case was very complicated and I don't know if he was a child or an adult, which seems to be central to the issue.  I'm not going to comment on whether he was or not, I'll leave that to the judicial branch, however the fact that he was closely involved with terrorism and killed a soldier lends some credibility to his detainment--again, I personally would not attribute this to some sort of racist or bigoted dogwhistling.


Quote
Sheer has totally accepted pretty egregious past racist behaviour from those in his party.  At the same time, he's howling about how it's unacceptable to accept past racist behaviour from Trudeau.  So as an apparent Sheer supported, I have to ask you . . . which is it?
Well mostly because Trudeau set his own standards for exceptional behavior and he hasn't come even close to meeting them, so it's the hypocrisy that is inflammatory to his political opponents.  I wouldn't call me a Scheer supporter btw.  Christie Blatchford covered this well in the National Post, I think the headline sums it up well:

Trudeau cuts himself the slack he has denied to others

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/christie-blatchford-in-cutting-himself-slack-its-trudeaus-hypocrisy-that-is-so-galling

GuitarStv

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #118 on: September 24, 2019, 08:48:54 AM »
The conservative action refusing to allow new Muslim immigrants to wear head coverings while taking their oath of citizenship was a good example.  Fortunately they eventually lost their court battle defending that discriminatory policy.  https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/zunera-ishaq-niqab-ban-citizenship-oath-1.3257762
Interesting that you believe this "hurts minorities".  It certainly shows a lack of respect for certain cultural norms, but I believe the niqab itself is more oppressive to vulnerable groups(namely women) than a policy that prevents their adornment.  I do not believe the niqab is commiserate with western values.  And I believe this policy affected minorities due to a correlation, not a causality(the motivation of the policy had little to do with the fact that Muslims are a minority in Canada).

I don't agree with it at all.  I have a friend who became Muslim in her later life, and voluntarily chose to wear a hijab.  She wasn't oppressed into doing either.

You can't start banning things because you think they might possibly be used to oppress someone without immediately running into serious problems.  Christianity for example has a long history of being used to justify atrocities of all sorts and particularly to oppress women.  Therefore by your logic we should deny citizenship to anyone who wears a crucifix - to avoid potential oppression of women.  It doesn't matter if the women want to wear the crucifix or not.

Fortunately, the supreme court (unanimously) decided that people should be free to wear the symbols of their religion that they want to - and the government is not free to target certain religious groups under the guise of 'protection'.



Quote
There was also the Conservative party idea of a 'barbaric cultural practices" hotline to report Muslims.
 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/02/canada-conservatives-barbaric-cultural-practices-hotline
Perhaps more egregious, but given how Canadians are still occasionally subjected to arranged marriages, honor killings and FGM I don't think this is entirely out of line either.

My neighbourhood is predominantly Hindu and Muslim.  Arranged marriages are common here, and seem to work out in practice about as well as non-arranged marriages around here.  What do you have against them?

'Honour' killings are something totally different, a disgusting and indefensible practice.  There was a case where there was an 'honour' killing a few streets away from us a couple years ago.  The man (not Muslim - he was Hindu) involved is now serving time in prison.  I don't believe that an anonymous hotline to report Muslims is the best way to prevent this sort of tragedy.  That's the kind of action that will naturally cause people to close off from the rest of our society.  If you're serious about wanting to stop 'honor' killings you want to integrate new immigrants with our society as quickly as possible.  The honour killing in our neighbourhood would likely not have happened if the woman involved felt able to go to others for help.



Is Scheer suggesting an instatement of this hotline?

No.  To the best of my knowledge, Scheer is not suggesting an installment of an anti-Muslim hotline.  You had asked for examples of the conservative party being racist though.



An opinion piece on the matter:
https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/malcolm-trudeaus-odd-statements-on-female-genital-mutilation-continue

How do you feel about 'male genital mutiliation' as commonly perpetrated by Jewish people on boys?



Quote
Then there was the full complicity of the Conservative government with the US torture and violation of rights of a Muslim Canadian minor. . . eventually costing us a ten million dollar settlement and apology in a unanimous Supreme Court decision about Omar Khadr.

The Khadr case was very complicated and I don't know if he was a child or an adult, which seems to be central to the issue.  I'm not going to comment on whether he was or not, I'll leave that to the judicial branch, however the fact that he was closely involved with terrorism and killed a soldier lends some credibility to his detainment--again, I personally would not attribute this to some sort of racist or bigoted dogwhistling.

Our judicial branch has commented on that.  It is public knowledge that Khadr was illegally arrested and tortured by the Americans at the age of 15, for alleged crimes committed when he was younger.  This happened with the knowledge, consent, and aid of our Conservative government.  That's also why he received more than 10 million dollars of taxpayer money.

We are a society governed by the rule of law.  Khadr may well be guilty as fuck.  But if he is, then repatriate him and try him in a court of law - using our established legal process.  Find him guilty and throw away the key - good riddance!  But don't be a part of America's illegal torture prison and kangaroo court, where 'evidence' produced is so flimsy that it proves nothing, and torture is regularly used to obtain confessions that are often disputed by known facts.  I believe that it's much more serious when our government breaks the law than when an individual does.

Alone, I agree with you.  Torturing an illegally detained Muslim child isn't a clear example of racism from the conservatives.  But taken into account with all of the other anti-Muslim comments and policies it helps to paint a picture.



Quote
Sheer has totally accepted pretty egregious past racist behaviour from those in his party.  At the same time, he's howling about how it's unacceptable to accept past racist behaviour from Trudeau.  So as an apparent Sheer supported, I have to ask you . . . which is it?
Well mostly because Trudeau set his own standards for exceptional behavior and he hasn't come even close to meeting them, so it's the hypocrisy that is inflammatory to his political opponents.  I wouldn't call me a Scheer supporter btw.  Christie Blatchford covered this well in the National Post, I think the headline sums it up well:

Trudeau cuts himself the slack he has denied to others

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/christie-blatchford-in-cutting-himself-slack-its-trudeaus-hypocrisy-that-is-so-galling

Yeah, agreed.  Trudeau is cutting himself slack he has denied others.  That's bullshit.  But it's not the question I asked you.

Scheer's argument appears to be that Trudeau set standards . . . and thus should be held to them.  Since conservatives have set no standards . . . they should be forgiven.  Does that make sense to you?

rocketpj

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #119 on: September 24, 2019, 11:41:20 AM »
Sihh

The conservative action refusing to allow new Muslim immigrants to wear head coverings while taking their oath of citizenship was a good example.  Fortunately they eventually lost their court battle defending that discriminatory policy.  https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/zunera-ishaq-niqab-ban-citizenship-oath-1.3257762
Interesting that you believe this "hurts minorities".  It certainly shows a lack of respect for certain cultural norms, but I believe the niqab itself is more oppressive to vulnerable groups(namely women) than a policy that prevents their adornment.  I do not believe the niqab is commiserate with western values.  And I believe this policy affected minorities due to a correlation, not a causality(the motivation of the policy had little to do with the fact that Muslims are a minority in Canada).

In the context of the times - widespread hostility (in some circles) to the idea of Syrian refugees, that was definitely an appeal to bigoted ideas, and was rightfully punished at the ballot box.  The niqab is a complex cultural topic that we non-Muslims are outsiders to, and for us to make judgements against what actual Muslim women choose is bigoted in itself.


Quote
The Khadr case was very complicated and I don't know if he was a child or an adult, which seems to be central to the issue.  I'm not going to comment on whether he was or not, I'll leave that to the judicial branch, however the fact that he was closely involved with terrorism and killed a soldier lends some credibility to his detainment--again, I personally would not attribute this to some sort of racist or bigoted dogwhistling.

Khadr was a child.  This is not a questionable notion, he was about 14 at the time of the incident.  International law dictates that child soldiers are not responsible for their actions, their commanders are.  It is in no way clear that he was even a 'child soldier' as he was dragged there by his father and may not have even been involved in the fighting - certainly no evidence has been provided that he was.

That being said, his 'close involvement' with terrorism was basically having a terrorist father.  It has never been proven in a court of law that he killed anyone, the case was suspect at best and his 'confession' after years of inhumane solitary confinement is utter bullshit.

I don't think they were being racist in ignoring his illegal treatment and torture, they were just toadying to the US and thought that it wouldn't matter because he was a Muslim kid from a shitty family.  For bonus points they got to scream and wail when their replacements had to pay out a settlement due to their own awful policies.


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Sheer has totally accepted pretty egregious past racist behaviour from those in his party.  At the same time, he's howling about how it's unacceptable to accept past racist behaviour from Trudeau.  So as an apparent Sheer supported, I have to ask you . . . which is it?
Well mostly because Trudeau set his own standards for exceptional behavior and he hasn't come even close to meeting them, so it's the hypocrisy that is inflammatory to his political opponents.  I wouldn't call me a Scheer supporter btw.  Christie Blatchford covered this well in the National Post, I think the headline sums it up well:

Trudeau cuts himself the slack he has denied to others

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/christie-blatchford-in-cutting-himself-slack-its-trudeaus-hypocrisy-that-is-so-galling
[/quote]

Here we agree, I really don't like that he did that, and I don't like whataboutism.  Still not voting Con though.

Beard N Bones

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #120 on: September 24, 2019, 02:26:48 PM »
No, I'm saying that Trudeau (probably) did not do anything racist. He dressed in a manner that is consistent with a type of racist display but that is not its only interpretation. If I say a word in a foreign language I don't know and it happens to be a racist slur, is that an example of racism or unlucky ignorance? My assumption--barring any solid evidence of racist behavior--is he was tone-deaf on the issue, as I mentioned.

My second point is that if Trudeau is secretly racist in his role as PM, as long as that is not reflected in any of his policies, then his secret racism does not impact anyone. I'm surprised you thought this was all about me (I'm not even Canadian!).

Knowing a bit about Trudeau's life and experiences, are you seriously telling me that he didn't know that dressing up as brownface/blackface was racist/offensive?!
Did he grow up in a politically naive and ignorant home?
Did he not get a government run education?
Did he only associate with Caucasians for the first 20 years of his life?
Did he have no exposure to history growing up, specifically with different races and racism? 
Did he not work as a teacher before getting into politics?!
If you are to reflect on these questions, and ponder what the most likely answer would be to each question, what conclusion do you come to?  I honestly can't see how someone would think he was ignorant.  Ignorant and "tone-deaf" - pah-lease.

And to address your second point - do you think it is okay to have a hypocrite as a leader?!  Putting policies in place in which the leader doesn't follow himself? 
God help Canada!

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #121 on: September 24, 2019, 05:52:07 PM »
No, I'm saying that Trudeau (probably) did not do anything racist. He dressed in a manner that is consistent with a type of racist display but that is not its only interpretation. If I say a word in a foreign language I don't know and it happens to be a racist slur, is that an example of racism or unlucky ignorance? My assumption--barring any solid evidence of racist behavior--is he was tone-deaf on the issue, as I mentioned.

My second point is that if Trudeau is secretly racist in his role as PM, as long as that is not reflected in any of his policies, then his secret racism does not impact anyone. I'm surprised you thought this was all about me (I'm not even Canadian!).

Knowing a bit about Trudeau's life and experiences, are you seriously telling me that he didn't know that dressing up as brownface/blackface was racist/offensive?!
Did he grow up in a politically naive and ignorant home?
Did he not get a government run education?
Did he only associate with Caucasians for the first 20 years of his life?
Did he have no exposure to history growing up, specifically with different races and racism? 
Did he not work as a teacher before getting into politics?!
If you are to reflect on these questions, and ponder what the most likely answer would be to each question, what conclusion do you come to?  I honestly can't see how someone would think he was ignorant.  Ignorant and "tone-deaf" - pah-lease.

And to address your second point - do you think it is okay to have a hypocrite as a leader?!  Putting policies in place in which the leader doesn't follow himself? 
God help Canada!
To me, it's plausible that Trudeau did not know because I also must have not been copied on the memo that went out to everyone else on the day blackface became 100% unacceptable in all contexts. I don't think blackface is a black-and-white issue and I don't think there is any discrete point in history where it could be said a consensus was reached on the issue; e.g. from 1 minute on google:

Angelina Jolie in A Mighty Heart (2007)
Robert Downey Jr in Tropic Thunder (2008)
Fred Armisen playing Obama on SNL (2008)

For non-US examples, I linked iamamiwhoami's music video teaser already where Jonna Lee dons blackface (2010). I can't find any accusations Jonna Lee is racist though. Then there is Die Antwoord's Fatty Boom Boom (2012), though Die Antwoord is such a dumpster fire of attention-seeking (borderline criminal, maybe bona-fide racist) antics that it's hard to say what anything they do means. I do like several of their singles though.

Note that all of these examples were many years after Trudeau's last known incident (2001) and include mainstream cultural media sources.

And I'm really sorry for this but I must(!) link this video for a primer on how it's impossible to avoid insulting someone by accident. I'm not drawing an equivalence between the debate on Trudeau (which I think is warranted) and the...uh...clear overreach at that Atlanta meeting. I believe it was Richard Feynmann who once said: "Don't listen to what I say, listen to what I mean"

Finally, Trudeau may well be a hypocrite and I would not bother to defend him against that accusation.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #122 on: September 24, 2019, 07:30:42 PM »
I don't agree with it at all.  I have a friend who became Muslim in her later life, and voluntarily chose to wear a hijab.  She wasn't oppressed into doing either.

You can't start banning things because you think they might possibly be used to oppress someone without immediately running into serious problems.  Christianity for example has a long history of being used to justify atrocities of all sorts and particularly to oppress women.  Therefore by your logic we should deny citizenship to anyone who wears a crucifix - to avoid potential oppression of women.  It doesn't matter if the women want to wear the crucifix or not.

Fortunately, the supreme court (unanimously) decided that people should be free to wear the symbols of their religion that they want to - and the government is not free to target certain religious groups under the guise of 'protection'.
The niqab is more my issue, rather than the hijab, and headscarves do transcend Islam.  I think there's a couple issues here, but I don't really feel like getting into the weeds on this.  Basically--covering up women doesn't seem to be a consensual choice for women living in countries that have a precedent for patriarchal dominance.  It's hard to tell until women are fully emancipated.  Women in Iran being jailed for removing a headscarf seems unacceptable.  There is also the more general issue of identifying people, which is probably why headscarves and burkas/niqabs are questionable in western countries.  Even Mr. Singh our NDP man in Canada acknowledged the concern of headdresses when he removed his turban for an ad running in Quebec.

Here's a map from the wiki on "Islamic dress in Europe".  I'm not convinced this is a resentment of minorities, nor is it racist(although you didn't call it racist--presumably we both know that Islam is not a race).  There is an interesting section on the "niqab" wiki page called Criminalization and Bans, but I won't quote it here in the interest of avoiding tl;dr.



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My neighbourhood is predominantly Hindu and Muslim.  Arranged marriages are common here, and seem to work out in practice about as well as non-arranged marriages around here.  What do you have against them?
Arranged marriage wasn't a great example as I am not entirely opposed to them but they do raise questions regarding consent.

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How do you feel about 'male genital mutiliation' as commonly perpetrated by Jewish people on boys?
Not a fan. 

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Scheer's argument appears to be that Trudeau set standards . . . and thus should be held to them.  Since conservatives have set no standards . . . they should be forgiven.  Does that make sense to you?
I think Scheer should have said little and allowed the people to make their own assessments of the situation.


As I have little interest in typing out detailed analyses of specific issues, I'll simply say that I do not believe racism or bigotry to be as large of a systemic concern as many on the left(not necessarily you, although possibly) seem to believe that it is(not in 21st century Canada anyway).  I think that correlation and causation make this even more difficult to even identify.  I also believe that there are conflicts culturally between highly engrained eastern cultures and western ones, and these tend to exist in the areas of personal liberty, since eastern cultures tend to favor the group and western cultures tend to favor the individual.  So if a law or pursuit by--say--a conservative government seems to occur at the expense of an eastern culture, I am more likely to consider this in the framework of a civil liberty or individualism--that is, to occur at the benefit of western culture, which is not particularly patriarchal by comparison, and does not have engrained caste systems, or purity beliefs.

It is also likely the right wing that will engage in this cultural judgement of sorts, as the left doesn't typically operate in this arena.  I've already discussed with you my thoughts on borders, quite abstractly, and how I think they are assessed very differently by the left and the right.

I also believe that most instances of egregious racism that you see and hear about are mostly attributable to individual bad actors, or a form of novelty bias, and not an indication of some engrained, systemic problem.  Racism and novelty bias transcends all politics and borders.  And I do not believe this should be laid at the feet of the CPC, although they will certainly have members that are probably racist.

My conservatism mostly aligns with libertarianism and fiscal conservatism, so perhaps social conservatism is my blind spot.

GuitarStv

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #123 on: September 24, 2019, 09:19:01 PM »
The niqab is more my issue, rather than the hijab, and headscarves do transcend Islam.  I think there's a couple issues here, but I don't really feel like getting into the weeds on this.  Basically--covering up women doesn't seem to be a consensual choice for women living in countries that have a precedent for patriarchal dominance.

Which countries in the world don't have a precedent for patriarchal dominance?



It's hard to tell until women are fully emancipated.

Why do you believe that telling a woman she can't do something she wants to is emancipation?



Women in Iran being jailed for removing a headscarf seems unacceptable.

Yeah.  But we're not talking about women in Iran.  We were talking about Canadian women and you wanted to take away their right to choose what to do.  Which is weird to hear coming from someone with an alleged Libertarian bent.



There is also the more general issue of identifying people, which is probably why headscarves and burkas/niqabs are questionable in western countries.

No, this is not a concern.  At least in the case with the Conservatives.  They refused to allow Muslim women to remove their niqab in the presence of female court officers (as is fully permitted by their religion).



Quote
My neighbourhood is predominantly Hindu and Muslim.  Arranged marriages are common here, and seem to work out in practice about as well as non-arranged marriages around here.  What do you have against them?
Arranged marriage wasn't a great example as I am not entirely opposed to them but they do raise questions regarding consent.

What questions exactly are being raised?  In Canada, how are they different than issues of consent in a conventional marriage?



Quote
How do you feel about 'male genital mutiliation' as commonly perpetrated by Jewish people on boys?
Not a fan.

Should Jews be allowed to continue to mutilate their male children in this way?  To paraphrase the article you posted:  This is a brutal cultural practice that mutilates a young man's genitals and has been carried out on millions of boys and men worldwide.  What laws do you believe should be put in place to prevent this barbaric practice?



As I have little interest in typing out detailed analyses of specific issues, I'll simply say that I do not believe racism or bigotry to be as large of a systemic concern as many on the left(not necessarily you, although possibly) seem to believe that it is(not in 21st century Canada anyway).  I think that correlation and causation make this even more difficult to even identify.  I also believe that there are conflicts culturally between highly engrained eastern cultures and western ones, and these tend to exist in the areas of personal liberty, since eastern cultures tend to favor the group and western cultures tend to favor the individual.  So if a law or pursuit by--say--a conservative government seems to occur at the expense of an eastern culture, I am more likely to consider this in the framework of a civil liberty or individualism--that is, to occur at the benefit of western culture, which is not particularly patriarchal by comparison, and does not have engrained caste systems, or purity beliefs.

I don't follow your logic here.  You seem to be in support of a law to prevent a woman from having the choice to wear a niqab . . . how does this restriction of personal freedom lead to greater individual freedom?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 08:05:10 AM by GuitarStv »

RetiredAt63

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #124 on: September 25, 2019, 06:52:18 AM »
I don't like the niqab, and I hate seeing someone wearing a full black one in the heat and humidity of an Ottawa summer. I start thinking about heat stroke and vitamin D deficiency.  Although let's face it, in a Canadian winter lots of us are equally invisible behind our scarves and balaclavas, at least until we get inside. But if I had grown up protected from men's gaze* by a niqab I might be reluctant to take it off, just as I still kept my bathing suit top on at a Club Med where a good proportion of the women were topless.

*There was a thread on here about men catcalling women and how unpleasant it is. Being visible to men is not always wonderful for women.

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #125 on: September 25, 2019, 07:15:35 AM »
How is a government that tells people what they can't wear better than a religion or culture that tells people what they must wear?


ElleFiji

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #126 on: September 25, 2019, 09:03:32 AM »
How is a government that tells people what they can't wear better than a religion or culture that tells people what they must wear?
I would like to insert this clapping image: https://media.tenor.co/images/bfd4d5f22475de4070ff14eb1bccffbd/raw

Beard N Bones

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #127 on: September 25, 2019, 09:40:50 AM »
No, I'm saying that Trudeau (probably) did not do anything racist. He dressed in a manner that is consistent with a type of racist display but that is not its only interpretation. If I say a word in a foreign language I don't know and it happens to be a racist slur, is that an example of racism or unlucky ignorance? My assumption--barring any solid evidence of racist behavior--is he was tone-deaf on the issue, as I mentioned.

My second point is that if Trudeau is secretly racist in his role as PM, as long as that is not reflected in any of his policies, then his secret racism does not impact anyone. I'm surprised you thought this was all about me (I'm not even Canadian!).

To me, it's plausible that Trudeau did not know because I also must have not been copied on the memo that went out to everyone else on the day blackface became 100% unacceptable in all contexts. I don't think blackface is a black-and-white issue and I don't think there is any discrete point in history where it could be said a consensus was reached on the issue; e.g. from 1 minute on google:

Angelina Jolie in A Mighty Heart (2007)
Robert Downey Jr in Tropic Thunder (2008)
Fred Armisen playing Obama on SNL (2008)

For non-US examples, I linked iamamiwhoami's music video teaser already where Jonna Lee dons blackface (2010). I can't find any accusations Jonna Lee is racist though. Then there is Die Antwoord's Fatty Boom Boom (2012), though Die Antwoord is such a dumpster fire of attention-seeking (borderline criminal, maybe bona-fide racist) antics that it's hard to say what anything they do means. I do like several of their singles though.

Note that all of these examples were many years after Trudeau's last known incident (2001) and include mainstream cultural media sources.

And I'm really sorry for this but I must(!) link this video for a primer on how it's impossible to avoid insulting someone by accident. I'm not drawing an equivalence between the debate on Trudeau (which I think is warranted) and the...uh...clear overreach at that Atlanta meeting. I believe it was Richard Feynmann who once said: "Don't listen to what I say, listen to what I mean"

Finally, Trudeau may well be a hypocrite and I would not bother to defend him against that accusation.

Bless your heart @lost_in_the_endless_aisle.  I wish I was as optimistic as you are regarding the thoughts, actions, and motives of humans.  You raise a good point regarding a person's intent in what is said or done.  (Unfortunately, I have a propensity toward being skeptical.)  I appreciated your response.

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #128 on: September 26, 2019, 12:44:06 PM »
Exciting political/climate/MMM details

So the liberals promised a $40,000 interest free loan for retrofits including solar panels. Big news in SK these days is the cancellation of net metering because of the last policy announcement that gave 10% additional rebates (federally) and the program filled up 2 years early! Massive success environmentally and a case example for Canada of how much uptake in panels you can get from policy changes.

In Alberta, you can get $0.75/watt rebates, this program would do exceptionally well there. Imagine an interest free 10 year loan for panels that pay off the loan...sounds ideal! No money down and you get panels tomorrow that are free in 10 years.

Conservatives are offering a 20% refundable tax credit instead on projects up to $20k in value (large scale solar gets cut off).

So who has the better policy? Which one is more likely to entice the electorate? I suspect the loan program, Canadians seem to respond better to piling on debt. The conservative policy appeals more to people with money, you can't avail yourself of it unless you can front the cost and wit for a rebate at tax time.

Side Note: I was hoping for a home reno policy in this election; I was expecting it for insulation, windows/doors and furnaces. My wife was hoping for some new windows, we had the discussion to wait till after the election. Sadly, I'm among the Canadians who expect government handouts now and I feel like they just reinforced my behaviour.

GuitarStv

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #129 on: September 26, 2019, 01:15:21 PM »
Hmmm.  Better policy in what way?

In the case you've outlined above, the conservatives are giving big government hand-outs for renovations while the liberals are (ironically) being more fiscally conservative with the government's money.  I'd expect that since the conservatives are just handing money out, their program is more likely to be widely accepted.  Don't know which one will have greater appeal to the electorate, or which one will have a greater beneficial environmental impact.

Prairie Stash

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #130 on: September 27, 2019, 02:58:19 PM »
Hmmm.  Better policy in what way?

In the case you've outlined above, the conservatives are giving big government hand-outs for renovations while the liberals are (ironically) being more fiscally conservative with the government's money.  I'd expect that since the conservatives are just handing money out, their program is more likely to be widely accepted.  Don't know which one will have greater appeal to the electorate, or which one will have a greater beneficial environmental impact.
I like that its a direct head on policy comparison. Both are attempting similar outcomes but with different philosophical approaches. I'm finding lately that no party is fiscally conservative, just lip service. On a personal note, both promises directly give me money, so that's nice. It was expected that they would do something in this area, I personally find the liberal platform the better thought out. I expect solar installers would love to phone me up and explain how I could get panels for free. I think the same conversation, with the rebate, just doesn't sell as well on a billboard advertisement.

I guess better in terms of enticing for voters is the best question. I can go on for hours examining environmental concerns, but the average person doesn't care.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #131 on: September 27, 2019, 03:28:13 PM »
Bribes for homeowners.  Yuck.

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #132 on: September 28, 2019, 02:09:37 AM »

Wrenchturner

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #133 on: September 28, 2019, 06:47:31 AM »
Bribes for homeowners everyone.  Yuck.
Fair enough.  It would be nice to hear about some ambitions to diversify our economy away from housing.  Canada is a real one trick pony these days.

daverobev

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #134 on: September 28, 2019, 08:09:28 AM »
Bribes for homeowners everyone.  Yuck.
Fair enough.  It would be nice to hear about some ambitions to diversify our economy away from housing.  Canada is a real one trick pony these days.

Hmm, yeah real estate is certainly a big part:


GuitarStv

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #135 on: September 28, 2019, 11:05:48 AM »
Wow, I had no idea so much money was spent on rentals and leases!

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #136 on: September 28, 2019, 12:07:26 PM »
I wonder how home purchases, transactions costs and mortages fit into this picture.  (I'm not very good at interpreting stuff on the statscan website.)

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #137 on: October 01, 2019, 02:50:36 PM »
Bribes for homeowners everyone.  Yuck.
Fair enough.  It would be nice to hear about some ambitions to diversify our economy away from housing.  Canada is a real one trick pony these days.
You mean like pipelines? If you're from western Canada, that's one of the biggest problems. If you're from Eastern Canada, its housing affordability.

The stats hide the relative impact of each sector by region. Lumping the stats together puts oil and mining at #3, in Alberta and Saskatchewan its probably #1. In Ontario, I believe housing is more problematic around Toronto and not so much in Thunder Bay. One of the problems with our democracy is its about party platforms, not so much about whats best for the constituency you get elected in.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #138 on: October 01, 2019, 03:15:17 PM »
Bribes for homeowners everyone.  Yuck.
Fair enough.  It would be nice to hear about some ambitions to diversify our economy away from housing.  Canada is a real one trick pony these days.
You mean like pipelines? If you're from western Canada, that's one of the biggest problems. If you're from Eastern Canada, its housing affordability.

The stats hide the relative impact of each sector by region. Lumping the stats together puts oil and mining at #3, in Alberta and Saskatchewan its probably #1. In Ontario, I believe housing is more problematic around Toronto and not so much in Thunder Bay. One of the problems with our democracy is its about party platforms, not so much about whats best for the constituency you get elected in.

I think historically, if Canada weren't so aggressively socialist, we would have kept a lot of high end medical, engineering and comp sci people that have otherwise been lost to the US.  So now we are left with pipelines and houses, and other forms of natural resource extraction, which we don't refine, and buy back from the US in a refined state.

Just a hunch anyway.  I think Canada is made up heavily of employees that suck and employers that don't innovate or incentivize much.  Personal ambition dies in socialism since it is not rewarded.

But even that issue aside, I don't know if Canada would ever have been an economic powerhouse, we are too empty in terms of density and non-integrated as a people.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #139 on: October 01, 2019, 07:17:38 PM »
Pretty disappointed with Scheer over this insurance broker business.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #140 on: October 02, 2019, 06:56:22 AM »
Pretty disappointed with Scheer over this insurance broker business.

Padding one's CV is never a good idea.

May's robot comments are also disappointing.

Sierra Club Canada asked all the parties about environmental issues. I'll post the link when I can get to my laptop.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #141 on: October 02, 2019, 01:23:28 PM »
Pretty disappointed with Scheer over this insurance broker business.

Padding one's CV is never a good idea.

May's robot comments are also disappointing.

Sierra Club Canada asked all the parties about environmental issues. I'll post the link when I can get to my laptop.
Re: May--the robot tax idea?  Doesn't seem too crazy... Not sure who else is going to pay for something like UBI if hardly anyone works.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #142 on: October 02, 2019, 02:40:21 PM »
Pretty disappointed with Scheer over this insurance broker business.

Padding one's CV is never a good idea.

May's robot comments are also disappointing.

Sierra Club Canada asked all the parties about environmental issues. I'll post the link when I can get to my laptop.
Re: May--the robot tax idea?  Doesn't seem too crazy... Not sure who else is going to pay for something like UBI if hardly anyone works.

Well, we have robots working in highly dangerous areas (think field mine and IED detectors), we have robots doing remote surgery, and lots in between.  And what about AI?  It was a tossed out idea, I  need to go read the party platform to see if they have a planned position or if this was an off the cuff answer to a random question.

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #143 on: October 02, 2019, 04:36:31 PM »
I think historically, if Canada weren't so aggressively socialist, we would have kept a lot of high end medical, engineering and comp sci people that have otherwise been lost to the US.  So now we are left with pipelines and houses, and other forms of natural resource extraction, which we don't refine, and buy back from the US in a refined state.

Just a hunch anyway.  I think Canada is made up heavily of employees that suck and employers that don't innovate or incentivize much.  Personal ambition dies in socialism since it is not rewarded.

But even that issue aside, I don't know if Canada would ever have been an economic powerhouse, we are too empty in terms of density and non-integrated as a people.
We are the 10th largest economy worldwide, what exactly would it take to become an economic powerhouse?

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #144 on: October 02, 2019, 05:57:28 PM »
I think historically, if Canada weren't so aggressively socialist, we would have kept a lot of high end medical, engineering and comp sci people that have otherwise been lost to the US.  So now we are left with pipelines and houses, and other forms of natural resource extraction, which we don't refine, and buy back from the US in a refined state.

Just a hunch anyway.  I think Canada is made up heavily of employees that suck and employers that don't innovate or incentivize much.  Personal ambition dies in socialism since it is not rewarded.

But even that issue aside, I don't know if Canada would ever have been an economic powerhouse, we are too empty in terms of density and non-integrated as a people.
We are the 10th largest economy worldwide, what exactly would it take to become an economic powerhouse?
Only 17th in GDP PPP but thanks for playing, 'Murica's hat :)

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #145 on: October 02, 2019, 06:21:19 PM »
Pretty disappointed with Scheer over this insurance broker business.

Padding one's CV is never a good idea.

May's robot comments are also disappointing.

Sierra Club Canada asked all the parties about environmental issues. I'll post the link when I can get to my laptop.
Re: May--the robot tax idea?  Doesn't seem too crazy... Not sure who else is going to pay for something like UBI if hardly anyone works.

Well, we have robots working in highly dangerous areas (think field mine and IED detectors), we have robots doing remote surgery, and lots in between.  And what about AI?  It was a tossed out idea, I  need to go read the party platform to see if they have a planned position or if this was an off the cuff answer to a random question.
I haven't watched any debates so I'm not informed on this either.
It's nice having a variety of parties though, to keep the conversation varied.

G-dog

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #146 on: October 02, 2019, 06:43:06 PM »
I think historically, if Canada weren't so aggressively socialist, we would have kept a lot of high end medical, engineering and comp sci people that have otherwise been lost to the US.  So now we are left with pipelines and houses, and other forms of natural resource extraction, which we don't refine, and buy back from the US in a refined state.

Just a hunch anyway.  I think Canada is made up heavily of employees that suck and employers that don't innovate or incentivize much.  Personal ambition dies in socialism since it is not rewarded.

But even that issue aside, I don't know if Canada would ever have been an economic powerhouse, we are too empty in terms of density and non-integrated as a people.
We are the 10th largest economy worldwide, what exactly would it take to become an economic powerhouse?
Only 17th in GDP PPP but thanks for playing, 'Murica's hat :)

10th in 3 different sources (2 different years) for nominal GDP
Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #147 on: October 02, 2019, 06:48:13 PM »
I think historically, if Canada weren't so aggressively socialist, we would have kept a lot of high end medical, engineering and comp sci people that have otherwise been lost to the US.  So now we are left with pipelines and houses, and other forms of natural resource extraction, which we don't refine, and buy back from the US in a refined state.

Just a hunch anyway.  I think Canada is made up heavily of employees that suck and employers that don't innovate or incentivize much.  Personal ambition dies in socialism since it is not rewarded.

But even that issue aside, I don't know if Canada would ever have been an economic powerhouse, we are too empty in terms of density and non-integrated as a people.
We are the 10th largest economy worldwide, what exactly would it take to become an economic powerhouse?
Only 17th in GDP PPP but thanks for playing, 'Murica's hat :)

10th in 3 different sources (2 different years) for nominal GDP
Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
Nominal is for suckers (unless you're the US then use nominal because you don't want China on top)

Wrenchturner

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #148 on: October 02, 2019, 08:15:56 PM »
I think historically, if Canada weren't so aggressively socialist, we would have kept a lot of high end medical, engineering and comp sci people that have otherwise been lost to the US.  So now we are left with pipelines and houses, and other forms of natural resource extraction, which we don't refine, and buy back from the US in a refined state.

Just a hunch anyway.  I think Canada is made up heavily of employees that suck and employers that don't innovate or incentivize much.  Personal ambition dies in socialism since it is not rewarded.

But even that issue aside, I don't know if Canada would ever have been an economic powerhouse, we are too empty in terms of density and non-integrated as a people.
We are the 10th largest economy worldwide, what exactly would it take to become an economic powerhouse?
Not simply selling houses to each other? 

Images are from Steve Saretsky's twitter.

salt cured

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Re: Canadian Politics - 2019 Election
« Reply #149 on: October 02, 2019, 09:00:25 PM »
My vote is in the mail! Nothing to do but look forward to watching the Thanksgiving bickering unfold.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!