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Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: The Fake Cheap on October 18, 2018, 06:32:00 PM

Title: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: The Fake Cheap on October 18, 2018, 06:32:00 PM
Just interested to hear people's thoughts. 

What has legalization been like in your state?

Will to try it now that it is legal?  Or buy from pot shops now that it is legal?
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: sixwings on October 18, 2018, 07:43:48 PM
Marijuana is the next frontier of food, beverage and smokes. There's no phillips morris or anheuser busch of marjuana yet, but someone will and there's a lot of money to be made there.

In 50 years we're going to look back at criminalization like we look back at prohibition and say "that was dumb".
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Johnez on October 18, 2018, 07:46:22 PM
Seems states here in America are trending toward legalization as well. I think it's fine except for walking past clouds of smoke at random public places. Just waiting for DUI stats to catch up. I was never for legalization, but more for decriminalization. The crap is a nuisance as far as I'm concerned and frankly I wished people would fight half as hard for safe park and neighborhoods.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: maizeman on October 18, 2018, 08:40:22 PM
I was reading an article a couple of days ago that suggested recreational legalization in CA this year was generating a lot less revenue than expected because so many people were continuing to buy through illegal channels instead.* I'll be interested to see in Canada hits the same problem or not.

When I was down in Australia, it sounded like a lot of their medical market is being run by companies based in Canada because it's a lot easier to raise money for marijuana companies up there. Legalization is clearly coming to most of the globe in coming years so the Canadian companies may have a big head start at becoming the anheuser busches and phillips morrises.

On a personal level I do think it's a good thing. The places I've lived where a lot of people smoked I've noticed less drinking, particularly to excess. If you're the sort of person (or are living the sort of life) where you need to escape your problems chemically on a regular basis, THC seems a lot less destructive to the folks around you than EtOH.

*Source; https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/world/canada/marijuana-canada-legalization.html?action=click&module=RelatedCoverage&pgtype=Article&region=Footer
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: FIRE Artist on October 18, 2018, 09:02:30 PM
I was reading an article a couple of days ago that suggested recreational legalization in CA this year was generating a lot less revenue than expected because so many people were continuing to buy through illegal channels instead.* I'll be interested to see in Canada hits the same problem or not.

At best the estimates to offset the black market are 25-50% in year 1, this is due to supply stream issues expected to have continued shortages, driving up prices of legal pot.

It has been said that revenues from taxes are not expected to be huge; the cost benefit to society will be in not having to police it, and not having to incarcerate people for petty possession.

Since you can grow up to 4 plants at home, I would expect that habitual users will eventually go that route. I see a future where you can purchase pot plants like tomato plants.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: PoutineLover on October 18, 2018, 09:27:09 PM
I'm in Canada, would have been a lot more excited about this a few years ago but I still think it's interesting. Going to check out one of the new stores tomorrow, I can report back. Honestly don't think it'll be that different, we've been able to smoke in public, buy it in stores and order online for the past few years anyway. I am glad that people with stupid criminal records will be able to get them cleaned up, I've never understood why it was criminalized in the first place and it was often used to target minorities, so that's one positive.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: sixwings on October 18, 2018, 10:35:26 PM

It has been said that revenues from taxes are not expected to be huge; the cost benefit to society will be in not having to police it, and not having to incarcerate people for petty possession.


My wife is a lawyer with the canadian DOJ and I thought the same thing for a while however the DOJ is actually expecting to have more trials related to marijuana. Before the laws were so grey that no one really bothered enforcing it but now that there's clear laws and rules the DOJ is expecting trials to increase as the rules will actually have to be enforced. It'll be interesting to see what happens.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Mrs.Piano on October 19, 2018, 03:30:09 AM
Mr. Piano and I don’t drink alcohol or use any drugs, so we don’t plan to change anything about our lives because of this law. I personally also feel that alcohol and marijuana are both against my religion and will continue to try to avoid situations where others are consuming same, even if legal.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: MrOnyx on October 19, 2018, 04:01:53 AM
I've never smoked pot and I never intend to. I don't need it, don't desire it, and expect that getting high would just exacerbate my occasional underlying mild anxieties.

That said, I'm all for legalisation/decriminalisation. I only ever hear about how it's far less damaging to a person than alcohol, so I'd rather a friend smoke occasional weed than destroy their liver on copious amounts of alcohol. I seem to recall hearing a story of someone setting a challenge to someone important in starting the drug war. Something like 'if I smoke one roll-up of weed for every bottle of booze you drink, you'll die first,' something along those lines. I mean I rarely drink either, so my life would be unaffected if it were legalised here in Blighty; I'd continue to just not intoxicate myself. Yes, I'd find it annoying to get the occasional whiff of it when I'm out and about because I do not like the smell of it, but that same sentiment is still true for tobacco and alcohol (in a person's breath), so I guess it wouldn't make a huge difference to me.

I support this because the war on drugs is costly, pointless, ineffective and only ever demonises, criminalises and stigmatises victims of addiction rather than treating or helping them. I'm not saying I expect this to automatically pave the way to a new attitude towards drug users of all stripes, but it certainly opens a door.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Mississippi Mudstache on October 19, 2018, 06:27:35 AM
I've never used pot, and it's not legal in my state (nor expected to be so anytime soon). But I support legalization/decriminalization. Good for Canada for being ahead of the US on this issue. I wouldn't mind giving it a try if it's ever legal for me to do so. Why not? But I'm not ever going to be a habitual user.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: nkt0 on October 19, 2018, 06:39:05 AM
I've never tried it (or any illegal drugs), but i fully support decriminalization of all illegal drugs, expansion of treatment, regulation of distribution, and safe use sites. We also need to give people real options to not pursue the escape of drugs, but at the end of the day, many will, many of those will become addicted, and many of those will never recover. We need to minimize the damage this causes to our society and treat people with respect and dignity.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Dabnasty on October 19, 2018, 07:14:36 AM
Seems states here in America are trending toward legalization as well. I think it's fine except for walking past clouds of smoke at random public places. Just waiting for DUI stats to catch up. I was never for legalization, but more for decriminalization. The crap is a nuisance as far as I'm concerned and frankly I wished people would fight half as hard for safe park and neighborhoods.

Good news, legalization/decriminalization should go a long way in making certain areas safer. Of course this won't apply to every unsafe park or neighborhood, but it would potentially remove a significant revenue stream for criminal organizations. This will take time, as maizeman mentioned people will keep buying from illegal sources as pricing and supply chains get figured out. Plus there are still plenty of other lucrative contraband to be sold but I think weed is the place to start as it really is quite harmless for most users. From there, I support the decriminalization of most if not all drugs.

In addition to that, and I don't have statistics to back this up, but it seems very logical that sending people to jail for drug use has a net negative impact on safety of our public places. First, people who use drugs but wouldn't otherwise break the law are now in a position where they know they're already breaking the law so making the leap to theft or other small crimes doesn't seem like as big of deal*. Then consider those who do time for multiple drug offenses. We're taking someone who just wants to use drugs and putting them in a cage with a bunch of legitimate criminals.

*Maybe it is a gateway drug? Just not in the way they taught us in school.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: GuitarStv on October 19, 2018, 08:37:39 AM
I don't (and never did) smoke weed, but am all for legalization.  It's nice to have revenue from a substance less addictive than tobacco and alcohol rather than funding gangs and criminals.  It's nice to have legal and quality controlled substance available rather than whatever QC a man on the corner performs.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on October 19, 2018, 08:57:44 AM
I don't smoke tobacco, so I won't be trying pot, but I also thought the criminalization was stupid.  DUI is DUI whether the influence is alcohol, pot, or OTC drugs that affect decision making, like some antihistamines and muscle relaxants.

And as GuitarSTV says, better quality control.  Just like I won't be drinking methanol from my local liquor store.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Chris22 on October 19, 2018, 09:02:22 AM
Two thoughts:

1.  There are other ways to consume pot that aren't smoking (mostly eating) that removes a lot of the health concerns about Pot from a lung-cancer POV, as well as the second hand effects.

2.  The comparison to alcohol is interesting.  On one hand, yes, alcohol is potentially more addictive and can cause more problems.  On the other, it is a lot easier to consume alcohol and not be inebriated than with pot.  I can sit on my patio and grill drinking one beer with essentially zero inebriating effects from the alcohol.  It is difficult to consume any amount of pot and not experience inebriating effects.  And there's really no "recreational/social" pot use; I can drink 1 beer and not be inebriated, but what am I going to do, eat 1/4th of a gummy and not feel the pot effects?  I mean, yeah, I could, but why, there's no social aspect to that.  Unlike drinking a beer or two slowly to prevent intoxication, there's no real reason to slowly consume pot to prevent intoxication; intoxication is the point. 

Just some thoughts.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Norioch on October 19, 2018, 09:04:20 AM
Way to go, Canada! Now let's legalize it at the federal level here in the US. What's taking so long?
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: GuitarStv on October 19, 2018, 09:19:53 AM
2.  The comparison to alcohol is interesting.  On one hand, yes, alcohol is potentially more addictive and can cause more problems.  On the other, it is a lot easier to consume alcohol and not be inebriated than with pot.  I can sit on my patio and grill drinking one beer with essentially zero inebriating effects from the alcohol.  It is difficult to consume any amount of pot and not experience inebriating effects.  And there's really no "recreational/social" pot use; I can drink 1 beer and not be inebriated, but what am I going to do, eat 1/4th of a gummy and not feel the pot effects?  I mean, yeah, I could, but why, there's no social aspect to that.  Unlike drinking a beer or two slowly to prevent intoxication, there's no real reason to slowly consume pot to prevent intoxication; intoxication is the point. 

Just some thoughts.

I kinda disagree with your argument about intoxication.  I don't see why anyone who would have a beer at the end of a day to take the edge off wouldn't be able to do the same with weed.  http://nationalpainreport.com/how-to-use-medical-marijuana-without-getting-high-8828730.html (http://nationalpainreport.com/how-to-use-medical-marijuana-without-getting-high-8828730.html) - it's certainly possible to use pot without getting high, just as it's possible to have a drink without getting drunk.

Your argument that you can drink alchohol without being effected by it is incorrect.  Even small amounts of booze have a large impact on the nervous system.  You might be able to walk a straight line, but the way you think and process emotions, and react to things that happen around you is quite different - this is a well studied topic and even levels as low as .02% produce measurable changes (https://www.alcohol.org/effects/blood-alcohol-concentration/ (https://www.alcohol.org/effects/blood-alcohol-concentration/)) . . .  and your BAC is .02 or higher if you're a man under 240 lbs who has one beer:
(https://static.businessinsider.com/image/5192b50cecad044c2c000016-750.jpg)
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Chris22 on October 19, 2018, 09:39:58 AM
2.  The comparison to alcohol is interesting.  On one hand, yes, alcohol is potentially more addictive and can cause more problems.  On the other, it is a lot easier to consume alcohol and not be inebriated than with pot.  I can sit on my patio and grill drinking one beer with essentially zero inebriating effects from the alcohol.  It is difficult to consume any amount of pot and not experience inebriating effects.  And there's really no "recreational/social" pot use; I can drink 1 beer and not be inebriated, but what am I going to do, eat 1/4th of a gummy and not feel the pot effects?  I mean, yeah, I could, but why, there's no social aspect to that.  Unlike drinking a beer or two slowly to prevent intoxication, there's no real reason to slowly consume pot to prevent intoxication; intoxication is the point. 

Just some thoughts.

I kinda disagree with your argument about intoxication.  I don't see why anyone who would have a beer at the end of a day to take the edge off wouldn't be able to do the same with weed.

I guess I come at it from two points, I don't use a single beer to "take the edge off", I drink it because I like the taste.  As a sizable guy who is an experienced drinker, who usually drinks with food, I can drink a single beer with zero intoxicating effects.  There's also a ritual to it, grab a beer from the outside fridge, fire up the grill, sit on the patio and enjoy.  My other point is, "if I was going to use pot" (it's not legal here) I'd eat it.  There's no ritual to doing all of the above and eating a 1/4 of a gummy instead of the beer.  I wouldn't have "a quarter gummy and a burger" like I would with a beer.  Maybe someone would enjoy that, but I can't really imagine it.  Would be like sitting down to eat a single M&M.


Quote
Your argument that you can drink alchohol without being effected by it is incorrect.  Even small amounts of booze have a large impact on the nervous system.  You might be able to walk a straight line, but the way you think and process emotions, and react to things that happen around you is quite different - this is a well studied topic and even levels as low as .02% produce measurable changes

We may have to agree to disagree here.  I guarantee I can consume one beer or one glass of wine and not register a change in my BAC.  Understand that's not true for everyone, but it's true for me. 
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: GuitarStv on October 19, 2018, 10:13:37 AM
2.  The comparison to alcohol is interesting.  On one hand, yes, alcohol is potentially more addictive and can cause more problems.  On the other, it is a lot easier to consume alcohol and not be inebriated than with pot.  I can sit on my patio and grill drinking one beer with essentially zero inebriating effects from the alcohol.  It is difficult to consume any amount of pot and not experience inebriating effects.  And there's really no "recreational/social" pot use; I can drink 1 beer and not be inebriated, but what am I going to do, eat 1/4th of a gummy and not feel the pot effects?  I mean, yeah, I could, but why, there's no social aspect to that.  Unlike drinking a beer or two slowly to prevent intoxication, there's no real reason to slowly consume pot to prevent intoxication; intoxication is the point. 

Just some thoughts.

I kinda disagree with your argument about intoxication.  I don't see why anyone who would have a beer at the end of a day to take the edge off wouldn't be able to do the same with weed.

I guess I come at it from two points, I don't use a single beer to "take the edge off", I drink it because I like the taste.  As a sizable guy who is an experienced drinker, who usually drinks with food, I can drink a single beer with zero intoxicating effects.  There's also a ritual to it, grab a beer from the outside fridge, fire up the grill, sit on the patio and enjoy.  My other point is, "if I was going to use pot" (it's not legal here) I'd eat it.  There's no ritual to doing all of the above and eating a 1/4 of a gummy instead of the beer.  I wouldn't have "a quarter gummy and a burger" like I would with a beer.  Maybe someone would enjoy that, but I can't really imagine it.  Would be like sitting down to eat a single M&M.

I'm not sure I follow this reasoning.

There's also a ritual to it, grab a INSERT PRODUCT from the PRODUCT RECEPTACLE, fire up the grill, sit on the patio and enjoy.

That entire ritual can be replicated with literally anything . . . from enjoying a fine pair of socks, to the company of a child, to weed.  If you want ritual, smoking weed (be it rolling a spliff or firing up a bong) has a lot more opportunity for that than pouring a drink in a glass.  You also seem fixated on a quarter of a gummy bear . . . when you can cook the oil into literally anything in literally any quantity.  Your burger off the grill could be the thing that gets you high instead of the beer.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: ketchup on October 19, 2018, 10:41:12 AM
Definitely good news.  The rest of the US should follow soon, but it might take longer in certain areas.

Legalizing it is a no-brainer when you objectively compare it to things that are legal (alcohol and tobacco).
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Chris22 on October 19, 2018, 10:44:51 AM
2.  The comparison to alcohol is interesting.  On one hand, yes, alcohol is potentially more addictive and can cause more problems.  On the other, it is a lot easier to consume alcohol and not be inebriated than with pot.  I can sit on my patio and grill drinking one beer with essentially zero inebriating effects from the alcohol.  It is difficult to consume any amount of pot and not experience inebriating effects.  And there's really no "recreational/social" pot use; I can drink 1 beer and not be inebriated, but what am I going to do, eat 1/4th of a gummy and not feel the pot effects?  I mean, yeah, I could, but why, there's no social aspect to that.  Unlike drinking a beer or two slowly to prevent intoxication, there's no real reason to slowly consume pot to prevent intoxication; intoxication is the point. 

Just some thoughts.

I kinda disagree with your argument about intoxication.  I don't see why anyone who would have a beer at the end of a day to take the edge off wouldn't be able to do the same with weed.

I guess I come at it from two points, I don't use a single beer to "take the edge off", I drink it because I like the taste.  As a sizable guy who is an experienced drinker, who usually drinks with food, I can drink a single beer with zero intoxicating effects.  There's also a ritual to it, grab a beer from the outside fridge, fire up the grill, sit on the patio and enjoy.  My other point is, "if I was going to use pot" (it's not legal here) I'd eat it.  There's no ritual to doing all of the above and eating a 1/4 of a gummy instead of the beer.  I wouldn't have "a quarter gummy and a burger" like I would with a beer.  Maybe someone would enjoy that, but I can't really imagine it.  Would be like sitting down to eat a single M&M.

I'm not sure I follow this reasoning.

There's also a ritual to it, grab a INSERT PRODUCT from the PRODUCT RECEPTACLE, fire up the grill, sit on the patio and enjoy.

That entire ritual can be replicated with literally anything . . . from enjoying a fine pair of socks, to the company of a child, to weed.  If you want ritual, smoking weed (be it rolling a spliff or firing up a bong) has a lot more opportunity for that than pouring a drink in a glass.

I don't like to smoke, anything outside of maybe a cigar once a year.  That is where most of the health hazards come in, through smoking.  I had childhood asthma so I avoid smoking.

Quote
You also seem fixated on a quarter of a gummy bear . . . when you can cook the oil into literally anything in literally any quantity.  Your burger off the grill could be the thing that gets you high instead of the beer.

I'm not even sure you know what you're arguing.  That was the whole point, to enjoy the ritual and AVOID the high.  You gave me a way to get the high and avoid the ritual.  I'm not really sure why. 
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Johnez on October 19, 2018, 10:45:14 AM
Seems states here in America are trending toward legalization as well. I think it's fine except for walking past clouds of smoke at random public places. Just waiting for DUI stats to catch up. I was never for legalization, but more for decriminalization. The crap is a nuisance as far as I'm concerned and frankly I wished people would fight half as hard for safe park and neighborhoods.

Good news, legalization/decriminalization should go a long way in making certain areas safer. Of course this won't apply to every unsafe park or neighborhood, but it would potentially remove a significant revenue stream for criminal organizations. This will take time, as maizeman mentioned people will keep buying from illegal sources as pricing and supply chains get figured out. Plus there are still plenty of other lucrative contraband to be sold but I think weed is the place to start as it really is quite harmless for most users. From there, I support the decriminalization of most if not all drugs.

In addition to that, and I don't have statistics to back this up, but it seems very logical that sending people to jail for drug use has a net negative impact on safety of our public places. First, people who use drugs but wouldn't otherwise break the law are now in a position where they know they're already breaking the law so making the leap to theft or other small crimes doesn't seem like as big of deal*. Then consider those who do time for multiple drug offenses. We're taking someone who just wants to use drugs and putting them in a cage with a bunch of legitimate criminals.

*Maybe it is a gateway drug? Just not in the way they taught us in school.

Good point about the gateway being the jail, rather than the drug. I actually never thought of that, and I hope decriminalization spreads. As far as I'm concerned, anything done privately (even heroin or crack) should be legal. It's the roving addicts and dealers on streets that present public nuisance though. As a kid growing up in the ghetto finding needles and crack pipes was common. Addiction to drugs (yes, including alcohol) leads to other problems for the public though which I'm not sure there are any real solutions for. The depressed areas in mid-America suffering from opioid addiction and ODs everywhere is a problem that isn't being contained by anything we have in place currently. Addicts cycle through treatment, some with kids (just read a very moving obit today...). I hope the removal of stigma and emphasis on treatment can reverse the trends here, the shame should be attached to people making bad decisions (such as DUI), not using the drug itself.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: maizeman on October 19, 2018, 10:48:19 AM
We may have to agree to disagree here.  I guarantee I can consume one beer or one glass of wine and not register a change in my BAC.  Understand that's not true for everyone, but it's true for me.

Have you tested this? If so are you using a breathalyzer (not really accurate below BAC 0.03-0.04) or a blood test? Because yes, it would defy everything I understand about biology if you could consume any amount of ethanol and have absolutely zero show up in your bloodstream.

Now we can argue about how significantly the blood alcohol from a single beer effects your behavior or reasoning, but it certainly does get into your bloodstream. And as comparatively benign as ethanol is, it's still not a great thing for your body to be metabolizing if it doesn't need to, so I would argue that if pot smokers are less likely to consume THC except when they actually want the effects of THC, that's a positive rather than a negative relative to ethanol.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: bacchi on October 19, 2018, 11:33:09 AM
We may have to agree to disagree here.  I guarantee I can consume one beer or one glass of wine and not register a change in my BAC.  Understand that's not true for everyone, but it's true for me.

Have you tested this? If so are you using a breathalyzer (not really accurate below BAC 0.03-0.04) or a blood test? Because yes, it would defy everything I understand about biology if you could consume any amount of ethanol and have absolutely zero show up in your bloodstream.

Maybe he's a Bender robot?
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: GuitarStv on October 19, 2018, 11:45:47 AM
2.  The comparison to alcohol is interesting.  On one hand, yes, alcohol is potentially more addictive and can cause more problems.  On the other, it is a lot easier to consume alcohol and not be inebriated than with pot.  I can sit on my patio and grill drinking one beer with essentially zero inebriating effects from the alcohol.  It is difficult to consume any amount of pot and not experience inebriating effects.  And there's really no "recreational/social" pot use; I can drink 1 beer and not be inebriated, but what am I going to do, eat 1/4th of a gummy and not feel the pot effects?  I mean, yeah, I could, but why, there's no social aspect to that.  Unlike drinking a beer or two slowly to prevent intoxication, there's no real reason to slowly consume pot to prevent intoxication; intoxication is the point. 

Just some thoughts.

I kinda disagree with your argument about intoxication.  I don't see why anyone who would have a beer at the end of a day to take the edge off wouldn't be able to do the same with weed.

I guess I come at it from two points, I don't use a single beer to "take the edge off", I drink it because I like the taste.  As a sizable guy who is an experienced drinker, who usually drinks with food, I can drink a single beer with zero intoxicating effects.  There's also a ritual to it, grab a beer from the outside fridge, fire up the grill, sit on the patio and enjoy.  My other point is, "if I was going to use pot" (it's not legal here) I'd eat it.  There's no ritual to doing all of the above and eating a 1/4 of a gummy instead of the beer.  I wouldn't have "a quarter gummy and a burger" like I would with a beer.  Maybe someone would enjoy that, but I can't really imagine it.  Would be like sitting down to eat a single M&M.

I'm not sure I follow this reasoning.

There's also a ritual to it, grab a INSERT PRODUCT from the PRODUCT RECEPTACLE, fire up the grill, sit on the patio and enjoy.

That entire ritual can be replicated with literally anything . . . from enjoying a fine pair of socks, to the company of a child, to weed.  If you want ritual, smoking weed (be it rolling a spliff or firing up a bong) has a lot more opportunity for that than pouring a drink in a glass.

I don't like to smoke, anything outside of maybe a cigar once a year.  That is where most of the health hazards come in, through smoking.  I had childhood asthma so I avoid smoking.

Quote
You also seem fixated on a quarter of a gummy bear . . . when you can cook the oil into literally anything in literally any quantity.  Your burger off the grill could be the thing that gets you high instead of the beer.

I'm not even sure you know what you're arguing.  That was the whole point, to enjoy the ritual and AVOID the high.  You gave me a way to get the high and avoid the ritual.  I'm not really sure why.

Mea culpa.  I forgot that we were pretending that alcohol has no physiological effects when you personally consume it in quantities that don't cause total inebriation.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: koshtra on October 19, 2018, 11:51:06 AM
It's been (de facto) legal here in Oregon for a while.

I don't do intoxicants at all any more. Smoked a few times forty some years ago to establish my trustworthiness (there was a silly idea going around that FBI agents wouldn't smoke, so you could be sure people weren't informers, or infiltrators of antiwar groups, by sitting around and smoking dope with them... yeah, we were all brilliant.)

But anyway -- weed all over the place in public here, now, and I don't think anyone much is the worse for it. If it wasn't weed it would be alcohol, which is far more addictive and destructive. If you give me the choice of walking past a bunch of teenagers who are drunk, and a bunch who are stoned, I'll take the stoned ones every time. Dull-witted is better than belligerent.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: EvenSteven on October 19, 2018, 12:21:36 PM
Quote
It's been (de facto) legal here in Oregon for a while.

Oregon is probably better than many other places, but it still looks like there where around 13,000 arrests or citations per year in Oregon. I wouldn't call that de facto legal.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Kris on October 19, 2018, 01:09:22 PM
We may have to agree to disagree here.  I guarantee I can consume one beer or one glass of wine and not register a change in my BAC.  Understand that's not true for everyone, but it's true for me.

Have you tested this? If so are you using a breathalyzer (not really accurate below BAC 0.03-0.04) or a blood test? Because yes, it would defy everything I understand about biology if you could consume any amount of ethanol and have absolutely zero show up in your bloodstream.

Now we can argue about how significantly the blood alcohol from a single beer effects your behavior or reasoning, but it certainly does get into your bloodstream. And as comparatively benign as ethanol is, it's still not a great thing for your body to be metabolizing if it doesn't need to, so I would argue that if pot smokers are less likely to consume THC except when they actually want the effects of THC, that's a positive rather than a negative relative to ethanol.

Exactly this. Frankly, Chris's assertion above is somewhat ridiculous, if he is actually saying what... he is actually saying.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on October 19, 2018, 01:48:00 PM
I was reading an article a couple of days ago that suggested recreational legalization in CA this year was generating a lot less revenue than expected because so many people were continuing to buy through illegal channels instead.


I live in the mountains of California.

Not far from where I live there is a small pot farm.

When I walk to my mailbox, that's ~ 1 mile from my house,  I can smell the pot as it cures; it smells like a skunk.

I don't understand  why a recreational  smoker would buy pot if the law  permits them to grow a small amount for their personal use.

Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: GuitarStv on October 19, 2018, 01:56:46 PM
I was reading an article a couple of days ago that suggested recreational legalization in CA this year was generating a lot less revenue than expected because so many people were continuing to buy through illegal channels instead.


I live in the mountains of California.

Not far from where I live there is a small pot farm.

When I walk to my mailbox, that's ~ 1 mile from my house,  I can smell the pot as it cures; it smells like a skunk.

I don't understand  why a recreational  smoker would buy pot if the law  permits them to grow a small amount for their personal use.

Aren't all users recreational smokers?  Is there a pro league of pot somewhere that I haven't heard about?  :P


That aside, I'm guessing that people would do it for the same reason that they pay others to work on their car, or grow their food.  Convenience and ease.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Kris on October 19, 2018, 01:57:20 PM
I was reading an article a couple of days ago that suggested recreational legalization in CA this year was generating a lot less revenue than expected because so many people were continuing to buy through illegal channels instead.


I live in the mountains of California.

Not far from where I live there is a small pot farm.

When I walk to my mailbox, that's ~ 1 mile from my house,  I can smell the pot as it cures; it smells like a skunk.

I don't understand  why a recreational  smoker would buy pot if the law  permits them to grow a small amount for their personal use.

Well, I suppose not everyone has a green thumb, or the inclination to tend plants to make them produce bud of a good enough quality.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: maizeman on October 19, 2018, 02:00:10 PM
I was reading an article a couple of days ago that suggested recreational legalization in CA this year was generating a lot less revenue than expected because so many people were continuing to buy through illegal channels instead.


I live in the mountains of California.

Not far from where I live there is a small pot farm.

When I walk to my mailbox, that's ~ 1 mile from my house,  I can smell the pot as it cures; it smells like a skunk.

I don't understand  why a recreational  smoker would buy pot if the law  permits them to grow a small amount for their personal use.

Aren't all users recreational smokers?  Is there a pro league of pot somewhere that I haven't heard about?  :P


That aside, I'm guessing that people would do it for the same reason that they pay others to work on their car, or grow their food.  Convenience and ease.

In this context I believe the distinction is recreational vs medicinal.

But yes, I agree that for pretty much anything people purchase they COULD grow/cook/build their own. It's just a question of whether the cost savings are worth both the extra effort of doing it + the extra effort of learning how.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on October 19, 2018, 02:18:40 PM
I was reading an article a couple of days ago that suggested recreational legalization in CA this year was generating a lot less revenue than expected because so many people were continuing to buy through illegal channels instead.


I live in the mountains of California.

Not far from where I live there is a small pot farm.

When I walk to my mailbox, that's ~ 1 mile from my house,  I can smell the pot as it cures; it smells like a skunk.

I don't understand  why a recreational  smoker would buy pot if the law  permits them to grow a small amount for their personal use.

Aren't all users recreational smokers?  Is there a pro league of pot somewhere that I haven't heard about?  :P


That aside, I'm guessing that people would do it for the same reason that they pay others to work on their car, or grow their food.  Convenience and ease.

I think that some who need to  smoke it for its palliative effects must have a special blend or type ("pharmaceutical marijuana") if it is to be efficacious.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: simonsez on October 19, 2018, 02:30:56 PM
Excellent, to each their own.

Been a long week, looking forward to Miles Davis on the vinyl with half a gummy and a glass of cabernet this evening.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Bendigirl on October 19, 2018, 04:28:06 PM
As a teen I did smoke pot, hated it...got far too paranoid.  Now, many moons later I am happy for the  legalization.  I won’t likely have any and no desire to drop by the only government run store in our province (right in my hometown) except to maybe gain an education.  With 80+ strains, oils...oh my, sprays...I feel i need to know what it’s all about.
Edibles are not legal here yet, they say another year.
I have always worried about what users are buying on the streets.  I am happy that people have a controlled place to purchase something they were going to smoke anyways.
Wish it had been legal when my dad was alive. His final years were stressful and painful...some of these strains could well have helped him deal with his situation.  From what I understand some strains (less thc) help with mood regulation rather than the “high” provided by THC.

Here the lineups were big for the first two days.  The store is quite amazing (from the pictures I have seen).  First purchase was by an American who s a grower and he was thrilled to see his product in the store.

Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: koshtra on October 19, 2018, 04:31:39 PM
Quote
It's been (de facto) legal here in Oregon for a while.

Oregon is probably better than many other places, but it still looks like there where around 13,000 arrests or citations per year in Oregon. I wouldn't call that de facto legal.

Umm.... I'm going by the fact that I pass by a dozen pot shops on my way to work, some of which advertise on billboards? (By "de facto" I was referring to the Feds not being on board. I don't know where you get your 13,000 arrests from, but it might be outdated.)
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Zikoris on October 19, 2018, 05:17:35 PM
I'm not thrilled about it. I don't think people should go to jail over weed, but at the same time, I just really hate the smell and culture of it. I could very happily live somewhere like Singapore, which has very strict drug laws.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: EvenSteven on October 19, 2018, 05:43:46 PM
Quote
Umm.... I'm going by the fact that I pass by a dozen pot shops on my way to work, some of which advertise on billboards? (By "de facto" I was referring to the Feds not being on board. I don't know where you get your 13,000 arrests from, but it might be outdated.)

You're right, I was looking at 2014.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: thriftycanuck on October 19, 2018, 06:11:58 PM
Don't smoke it myself, but pro legalizing it + taxing it + regulating it.  Like it is....

It makes sense.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: pecunia on October 19, 2018, 06:54:36 PM
It will be on the ballot in Michigan next month.  It is expected to pass and become legal.

Seems like the law has ruined a lot of lives for little harm too oneself, others or society.  Yeh - make it legal.

I can eat some really good brownies when I retire.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: calimom on October 19, 2018, 07:20:42 PM
Once again, Canada leads. IMO the US should fully legalize, regulate and streamline cultivation and distribution and make the $$ part easier for growers who can be taxed federally as well as locally. Making it legal helps eliminate the stupid criminal factor and reduces the environmental degradation from illegal outdoor grows. Not to mention freeing up law enforcement and jail space for real, actual crimes.

On a personal note, I'm happy to take a few puffs off a vape pen, the cartridges for which I buy legally in Californiia or from a bud gifted from a friend at night, in the privacy of my own backyard hot tub without some "concerned" neighbor turning me into CPS.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: scottish on October 20, 2018, 06:56:45 AM
From what I remember in high school, pot has an annoying tendency to come back a few days or weeks later.    I haven't smoked any since about 1981, and I won't start again.

Personally I think recreational drug use is nuts.    However I like craft beer so I have ongoing cognitive dissonance over this.

Time will tell whether legalization is a good thing or not.    I have to wonder how making more intoxicants available can be good for society... 
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: SomedayStache on October 20, 2018, 07:46:38 AM
Can't wait for all of America to follow suit.
I don't smoke it myself and most likely never will but I know many who do.  Also know many gardeners who will love to grow their own.  Seems like a great in sourcing opportunity and to align quite well with mmm values.  (Even better than making crappy fermented cider from the big jars of juice ).

Does anyone know how employers that drug test are responding?  It's always been terrible that pot is the drug that can be detected for weeks after consumption while most other, and far more hard core, drugs are out of your system fairly quickly and will not show up in a drug test.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: joonifloofeefloo on October 20, 2018, 08:11:20 AM
I was for decriminalization, not so much for legalization.

I’m concerned about how many people pay attention to the broadstroke of any law and fail to learn and abide by the details. Newspaper reported that the first weed-related fine was issued an hour after it became legal. Many will not know that admitting at the border to using pot can result in their being banned from travel in the US permanently (or until the US changes this).

Quality control is near-useless if consumers aren’t also carefully informed about the impact of each option, any risks, their personal biological vulnerability, etc.

Some people are protected from themselves by a thing being illegal (example: my child is very literal and won’t break rules...but that same brain faces big risks with the most commonly available forms of pot... I know, I know, I talk with him about the details too, but it did feel easier to communicate with the “back up” of law.)

I absolutely believe in education over law...but until we’re doing the education part, I’d prefer we’d gone with decriminalization.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: PoutineLover on October 20, 2018, 08:53:52 AM
The new Quebec premier is now discussing making it illegal to smoke in public, and landlords are allowed to ban it in their buildings. So it's possible that with those changes, the same marginalized people from before (homeless, minorities, lower income renters) will be criminalized despite legalization. There won't be anywhere they can actually smoke it. Of course the premier won't allow cannabis cafés either. It's not really legal if only home owners can smoke..
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Dabnasty on October 20, 2018, 11:30:19 AM
Time will tell whether legalization is a good thing or not.    I have to wonder how making more intoxicants available can be good for society...

Yes, time will tell I suppose, but availability isn't really the issue. Most anyone who wants weed can get some weed.

As for it being good for society, the most basic argument would be to look at how well prohibition worked out. Current laws cause a lot of the same problems that prohibition in the US did like providing money to organized crime and not allowing for oversight and regulation of sales. Beyond that I would say read through the previous comments. Good arguments have already been made to answer this question. If you disagree with the reasoning, let us know why and I or the original poster can further the discussion.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: maizeman on October 20, 2018, 12:42:55 PM
Time will tell whether legalization is a good thing or not.    I have to wonder how making more intoxicants available can be good for society...

I guess the question is whether making more of the currently available intoxicants legal will increase the total amount of time people spend intoxicated or not. My guess is that we won't see a huge shift, and most of the time spent smoking pot by the population as a whole would either already have happened illegally, be substitution away from alcohol, or substitution away from intoxicants that remain illegal (not sure how big that last slice is, but it's probably not absolutely zero).

But I could well be wrong. Does anyone know if there are any studies from Colorado or Washington on this question?
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: scottish on October 21, 2018, 09:36:47 AM
Time will tell whether legalization is a good thing or not.    I have to wonder how making more intoxicants available can be good for society...

I guess the question is whether making more of the currently available intoxicants legal will increase the total amount of time people spend intoxicated or not. My guess is that we won't see a huge shift, and most of the time spent smoking pot by the population as a whole would either already have happened illegally, be substitution away from alcohol, or substitution away from intoxicants that remain illegal (not sure how big that last slice is, but it's probably not absolutely zero).

But I could well be wrong. Does anyone know if there are any studies from Colorado or Washington on this question?

Time will tell whether legalization is a good thing or not.    I have to wonder how making more intoxicants available can be good for society...

Yes, time will tell I suppose, but availability isn't really the issue. Most anyone who wants weed can get some weed.

As for it being good for society, the most basic argument would be to look at how well prohibition worked out. Current laws cause a lot of the same problems that prohibition in the US did like providing money to organized crime and not allowing for oversight and regulation of sales. Beyond that I would say read through the previous comments. Good arguments have already been made to answer this question. If you disagree with the reasoning, let us know why and I or the original poster can further the discussion.



I didn't see any particularly good arguments one way or the other in the thread.    Just opinions.   Your points aren't invalid, but you guys are treating it like it's a zero-sum game.    Arguing that nothing will change is a little disingenuous.

Look at tobacco.   It's no longer socially acceptable.    The health costs to society of tobacco use have been steadily declining.

Tobacco causes lung cancer.   Marijuana makes you fat dumb and happy.   The happy part is great, fat and dumb not so much.

Personally I'd prefer to see drugs like marijuana become socially ostracized rather than socially acceptable.   Legalization is a huge step towards social acceptance.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: maizeman on October 21, 2018, 09:46:03 AM
I guess the question is whether making more of the currently available intoxicants legal will increase the total amount of time people spend intoxicated or not. My guess is that we won't see a huge shift, and most of the time spent smoking pot by the population as a whole would either already have happened illegally, be substitution away from alcohol, or substitution away from intoxicants that remain illegal (not sure how big that last slice is, but it's probably not absolutely zero).

But I could well be wrong. Does anyone know if there are any studies from Colorado or Washington on this question?
I didn't see any particularly good arguments one way or the other in the thread.    Just opinions.   Your points aren't invalid, but you guys are treating it like it's a zero-sum game.    Arguing that nothing will change is a little disingenuous.

I think accusing someone one being disingenuous for making a prediction, acknowledging it could be wrong, and inquiring whether anyone has any actual data or studied to support or contradict the prediction indicates that you are not interested in discussing this topic in good faith.

So I guess there is no point in us speaking further.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on October 21, 2018, 09:55:55 AM
Look at tobacco.   It's no longer socially acceptable.    The health costs to society of tobacco use have been steadily declining.

Tobacco causes lung cancer.   Marijuana makes you fat dumb and happy.   The happy part is great, fat and dumb not so much.

Personally I'd prefer to see drugs like marijuana become socially ostracized rather than socially acceptable.   Legalization is a huge step towards social acceptance.

While marijuana was illegal one set of social rules applied.  Now that it is legal we can disapprove of it because it is stupid and stinky and not great for health, not because it is illegal.  And the medicinal benefits are legally available for those who need them.* Tobacco and alcohol are legal, but smoking and being drunk are badly thought of, and DUI is slammed.

*And people like me may be able to get seeds for fibre hemp and edible seed hemp and not have to worry about the law and the active components.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Paul der Krake on October 21, 2018, 10:39:46 AM
I'm not thrilled about it. I don't think people should go to jail over weed, but at the same time, I just really hate the smell and culture of it. I could very happily live somewhere like Singapore, which has very strict drug laws.
The more mainstream it becomes, the more stupid "stoner culture" looks. The largest retail company here in WA has their stores looking understated and staffed by helpful professionals, not dimwits with a growing operation in their parents' basement.

It will ever be as common as alcohol, because hey, they are two very different things. Even if we somehow came to 100% acceptance with 0% stigma overnight, the social dynamics around consumption are wildly different. And that's totally okay.

There will always be a subset of people who will brag about how much they drink or smoke, but ultimately the rest of us will start thinking of them as the idiot outliers instead of standard bearers. I think we're a couple of years away from that.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: koshtra on October 21, 2018, 01:07:09 PM
Tobacco use has been steadily declining for decades, without having been made illegal. So I'm not sure about the legality=social acceptance hypothesis. I'm willing to be convinced, but it's not obvious to me.

We should be getting better numbers in a few years -- that's one good thing about legalization. Easier to get reliable numbers. I really doubt that recreational usage will go either up or down much, but that's just a guess.

My thinking on marijuana is that really we've threshed this out before in the United States, about alcohol. We decided prohibition was a bad idea. Personally I'd be on board for prohibiting both alcohol and cannabis, apart from medical uses -- I loathe intoxicants -- but prohibiting one (and punishing people extravagantly for it) while allowing the other seems silly and inconsistent to me, particularly when cannabis is the less destructive of the two.

If we draw the line on the far side of alcohol, then it's hard for me to see a rational reason for drawing it on the near side of cannabis.

Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: bugbaby on October 21, 2018, 02:24:47 PM
Portugal has the answer. Decriminalize _all_ drugs.

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/longform/portugal-drug-use-decriminalization


Sent from my KIW-L24 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: scottish on October 21, 2018, 04:04:48 PM
I guess the question is whether making more of the currently available intoxicants legal will increase the total amount of time people spend intoxicated or not. My guess is that we won't see a huge shift, and most of the time spent smoking pot by the population as a whole would either already have happened illegally, be substitution away from alcohol, or substitution away from intoxicants that remain illegal (not sure how big that last slice is, but it's probably not absolutely zero).

But I could well be wrong. Does anyone know if there are any studies from Colorado or Washington on this question?
I didn't see any particularly good arguments one way or the other in the thread.    Just opinions.   Your points aren't invalid, but you guys are treating it like it's a zero-sum game.    Arguing that nothing will change is a little disingenuous.

I think accusing someone one being disingenuous for making a prediction, acknowledging it could be wrong, and inquiring whether anyone has any actual data or studied to support or contradict the prediction indicates that you are not interested in discussing this topic in good faith.

So I guess there is no point in us speaking further.

I didn't mean to be rude.   My apologies.    I'm interested if studies from US states have results.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: maizeman on October 21, 2018, 04:28:36 PM
Appreciated Scottish. Since the earlier post I've been trying to see if anyone has published reliable data on this.

The best I've found so far is a study from Washington State that used data on sales of Marijuana, Tobacco, and Alcohol, as well as differences in between dispensaries opened in different parts of the state to look at the effect of marijuana legalization (https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3148773).

They estimated that marijuana legalization decreases demand for alcohol by ~12% and decreased demand for tobacco by ~20% if the prices for all three intoxicants remain legal constant (See Table 7 in the PDF). Meanwhile total (legal and taxed) expenditure on all three intoxicants grew from $2.5 billion pre-legalization to $2.9 billion post-legalization. How much of that extra $400M represents people who used to buy pot on the black market shifting their purchases to legal and taxed routes, and how much of that represents people who previously weren't buying any form of intoxicant now deciding to consume pot because it is legal and/or less socially frowned upon remains ambiguous.

Now I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, an economist, so if anyone else wants to take a look at that study (or is aware of a better or more relevant one) please do speak up.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Dabnasty on October 22, 2018, 08:41:38 AM
Time will tell whether legalization is a good thing or not.    I have to wonder how making more intoxicants available can be good for society...

I guess the question is whether making more of the currently available intoxicants legal will increase the total amount of time people spend intoxicated or not. My guess is that we won't see a huge shift, and most of the time spent smoking pot by the population as a whole would either already have happened illegally, be substitution away from alcohol, or substitution away from intoxicants that remain illegal (not sure how big that last slice is, but it's probably not absolutely zero).

But I could well be wrong. Does anyone know if there are any studies from Colorado or Washington on this question?

Time will tell whether legalization is a good thing or not.    I have to wonder how making more intoxicants available can be good for society...

Yes, time will tell I suppose, but availability isn't really the issue. Most anyone who wants weed can get some weed.

As for it being good for society, the most basic argument would be to look at how well prohibition worked out. Current laws cause a lot of the same problems that prohibition in the US did like providing money to organized crime and not allowing for oversight and regulation of sales. Beyond that I would say read through the previous comments. Good arguments have already been made to answer this question. If you disagree with the reasoning, let us know why and I or the original poster can further the discussion.



I didn't see any particularly good arguments one way or the other in the thread.    Just opinions.   Your points aren't invalid, but you guys are treating it like it's a zero-sum game.    Arguing that nothing will change is a little disingenuous.

Look at tobacco.   It's no longer socially acceptable.    The health costs to society of tobacco use have been steadily declining.

I don't see it as a zero sum game at all. Certain individuals who do not smoke under the current laws will try it after legalization and of those people some will take it up regularly and of those some will be worse for it and some will be better, but based on some of the arguments made so far, the positive impacts on society will far outweigh the negative. As for whether or not these are "good" arguments, that's why I asked if there was any particular argument or line of reasoning that you disagreed with so that we could further the discussion with data.

Regarding social acceptance I think honesty is the best route to putting marijuana where it belongs in society. My personal experience growing up was being told that it was as bad as other drugs and that it would fry my brain. As soon as I had access to the internet and a slight interest I realized most of what I had been told was demonstrably false. This made me question a lot of the other common "knowledge" around drugs and probably made me a little cocky about what I thought I knew and the adults around me were ignorant of. Being told by my father that he had a roommate in college who's life was ruined by pot wasn't very convincing once I realized that he also believed the entire plant was smoked. (this roommate sounded pretty made up for other reasons too)

Speaking with others on the subject I've heard the same experience from lots of other people my age and older.

Quote
Tobacco causes lung cancer.   Marijuana makes you fat1 dumb2 and happy3.   The happy part is great, fat and dumb not so much.

Personally I'd prefer to see drugs like marijuana become socially ostracized rather than socially acceptable.   Legalization is a huge step towards social acceptance4.

Much like the arguments you disagree with in this thread, these claims are all opinions. Do you have any data or other evidence to back them up?

1https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4204468/

"As for large epidemiological studies in the general population, findings consistently indicate that users of marijuana tend to have lower body mass indices than nonusers."

2In reading studies on this topic I've seen evidence of both negative and positive effects on intelligence but not much strong evidence in either direction. If you're talking about during intoxication, it varies by person but yes, generally short term memory and reaction speed is reduced.

3This one is complex, especially given the debate of what constitutes happiness, but I've seen good evidence that for some users there is a net negative effect on their mental wellbeing and for others a net positive.

4As discussed above I disagree with this assumption but I would even question the notion that social ostracization is a good thing. We've determined that there are legitimate medical uses fro marijuana and looking down on usage has an impact on medical users as well as recreational.

Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Prairie Stash on October 22, 2018, 09:21:20 AM

I didn't see any particularly good arguments one way or the other in the thread.    Just opinions.   Your points aren't invalid, but you guys are treating it like it's a zero-sum game.    Arguing that nothing will change is a little disingenuous.

Look at tobacco.   It's no longer socially acceptable.    The health costs to society of tobacco use have been steadily declining.

Tobacco causes lung cancer.   Marijuana Alcohol makes you fat dumb and happy/angry.   The happy part is great, fat and dumb not so much.

Personally I'd prefer to see drugs like marijuana Alcohol become socially ostracized rather than socially acceptable.   Legalization is a huge step towards social acceptance.
I wonder if they would have had the same comments regarding the end of prohibition? No one disputes the cost of Alcohol related deaths in Canada, yet its legal. Alcohol causes more hospitalizations then heart attacks, its a dangerous drug. Tobacco is far more dangerous (17% of deaths in Canada are smoking related, 1.9% are alcohol). Marijuana will cause deaths if smoked, not so much if its in drink or food form, I'm against the smoking (health concerns) but don't see a good argument against ingesting.
http://www.ccsa.ca/Resource%20Library/CCSA-Canadian-Drug-Summary-Alcohol-2017-en.pdf
https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-concerns/tobacco/legislation/tobacco-product-labelling/smoking-mortality.html
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10552-013-0259-0

I brew my own beer (like you) abd I enjoy Alcohol, I'm glad it became socially acceptable. My city was once a Temperance colony, they were the people responsible for bringing prohibition in. I find the acceptance of Alcohol interesting, its a bit of a mystery why alcohol which causes so many deaths in canada is okay. I'm not likely to go out and buy marijuana, but I can't claim the high ground on the issue.

Try making the same arguments for alcohol that you make for marijuana, its a difficult task. Its a lot tougher to argue about marijuana when a person accepts a far more dangerous drug such as alcohol.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Slee_stack on October 22, 2018, 10:33:10 AM
I'm (negatively) biased due to personal observation over the years.

Still, I'm OK with legalization. 

Pot may not be physically addicting like alcohol or other drugs, but it can have long lasting negative influence....particularly on motivation.

Its a dangerous recreational drug for those who are naturally lazy or un-motivated to begin with.   Too many drop outs and job losses.  Not that any drug can't contribute similarly.

I have a current family member that really won't benefit from legalized pot.  Certainly, its their decision what they do (or actually DON'T DO) with their life.  Legal pot will just help get them nowhere just a bit faster.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: joonifloofeefloo on October 22, 2018, 10:40:26 AM
Its a dangerous recreational drug for those who are naturally lazy or un-motivated to begin with.

(Also for some people who learn the hard way about a neurological sensitivity to certain elements. Pot isn’t benign for all people.)
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Kris on October 22, 2018, 10:40:51 AM
I'm (negatively) biased due to personal observation over the years.

Still, I'm OK with legalization. 

Pot may not be physically addicting like alcohol or other drugs, but it can have long lasting negative influence....particularly on motivation.

Its a dangerous recreational drug for those who are naturally lazy or un-motivated to begin with.   Too many drop outs and job losses.  Not that any drug can't contribute similarly.

I have a current family member that really won't benefit from legalized pot.  Certainly, its their decision what they do (or actually DON'T DO) with their life.  Legal pot will just help get them nowhere just a bit faster.

I'd say this is more or less where I am.

I think decriminalizing pot is important, because of the nefarious effects its being illegal has had on communities of color, far more than whites.

As far as legalization, I'm for that, too. Because alcohol is legal, and I do think it's a worse drug in terms of its negative effects. Since it is, I see no reason pot shouldn't be.

I stopped smoking pot a long time ago, precisely for the reasons you state above. I was finishing up a master's degree at the time, and decided: I can get a Ph.D., or I can smoke pot. I can't do both.

I was with a guy in a serious relationship when I stopped. He didn't. We broke up. He's still basically in the same place now that he was then in his life. Decades later. And weed is a big part of that.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Mississippi Mudstache on October 22, 2018, 11:42:01 AM
I stopped smoking pot a long time ago, precisely for the reasons you state above. I was finishing up a master's degree at the time, and decided: I can get a Ph.D., or I can smoke pot. I can't do both.

I was with a guy in a serious relationship when I stopped. He didn't. We broke up. He's still basically in the same place now that he was then in his life. Decades later. And weed is a big part of that.

This seems a bit like circular logic to me. If you were able to choose to stop using pot, then wasn't he as well? It sounds as though your internal motivation was the reason behind your decision to give up pot, and his lack of motivation was behind his decision to keep using. Is it possible that there is an underlying correlative factor between lack motivation and drug use, rather than a direct causal relationship?

Honestly, I'm just asking questions. As I've mentioned before, I've never used pot, but I would try it if I had the opportunity to use it legally. I'm not remotely concerned that I could become dependent on it. Intoxication is often enjoyable, but not something I seek out except on rare occasions.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Johnez on October 22, 2018, 11:43:33 AM
Its a dangerous recreational drug for those who are naturally lazy or un-motivated to begin with.

(Also for some people who learn the hard way about a neurological sensitivity to certain elements. Pot isn’t benign for all people.)

A friend of mine, who's brother I knew in high school but not as a friend, was hugely affected by pot use. I visited his house once and the difference in 2 years was massive. I didn't recognize him, and simply could not believe smoking pot could have resulted in such a change. While I was there he had an "episode" and had to be physically constrained. I have read quite a bit on marijuana and had been skeptical about the link to schizophrenia, but here it was in front of me. Yes, there were probably mental  issues before he started, but who's to say what is or isn't a risk? A small portion of people susceptible to adverse reactions isn't enough to totally ban a thing (peanuts, milk, etc), and I think legalizing marijuana will produce better and more comprehensive and conclusive studies.

When misinformation is spread even by authorities, it's difficult to rely on "facts". When authorities say "drugs are bad mkay" with Johnny Law as backup, skepticism is natural. When it's legal and studies are produced that show exactly what dangers AND benefits might be had, without the conflicts of interest its a lot easier to make a decision based in fact.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: joonifloofeefloo on October 22, 2018, 11:52:18 AM
A small portion of people susceptible to adverse reactions isn't enough to totally ban a thing (peanuts, milk, etc)...

Agreed.

I mentioned above that my first choice would be education + legalization. Without the education, though, I'm concerned. My concern is based on specific, witnessed matters over the last two decades, but is covered very well in this episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DlFcMWdsxw

(I feel just as strongly for education + legalization in marriage, parenting, business contracts, raw milk, Advil, etc.)
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: GuitarStv on October 22, 2018, 11:56:44 AM
A small portion of people susceptible to adverse reactions isn't enough to totally ban a thing (peanuts, milk, etc)...

Agreed.

I mentioned above that my first choice would be education + legalization. Without the education, though, I'm concerned. My concern is based on specific, witnessed matters over the last two decades, but is covered very well in this episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DlFcMWdsxw

(I feel just as strongly for education + legalization in marriage, parenting, business contracts, raw milk, Advil, etc.)

I'm trying to parse your final statement.  To the best of my knowledge, marriage, parenting, business contracts, and Advil are all legal currently.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Kris on October 22, 2018, 11:56:48 AM
I stopped smoking pot a long time ago, precisely for the reasons you state above. I was finishing up a master's degree at the time, and decided: I can get a Ph.D., or I can smoke pot. I can't do both.

I was with a guy in a serious relationship when I stopped. He didn't. We broke up. He's still basically in the same place now that he was then in his life. Decades later. And weed is a big part of that.

This seems a bit like circular logic to me. If you were able to choose to stop using pot, then wasn't he as well? It sounds as though your internal motivation was the reason behind your decision to give up pot, and his lack of motivation was behind his decision to keep using. Is it possible that there is an underlying correlative factor between lack motivation and drug use, rather than a direct causal relationship?

Honestly, I'm just asking questions. As I've mentioned before, I've never used pot, but I would try it if I had the opportunity to use it legally. I'm not remotely concerned that I could become dependent on it. Intoxication is often enjoyable, but not something I seek out except on rare occasions.

Of course. That's what Slee_Stack said in his post, which I quoted in order to agree with it:

"Its a dangerous recreational drug for those who are naturally lazy or un-motivated to begin with."

I was able to pull myself away, because of motivation. But I did so because I recognized that it was already negatively affecting my life, and making me lazy and unmotivated.

Thankfully, I was un-lazy and un-unmotivated enough to do so. My ex-boyfriend was not.

Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Kris on October 22, 2018, 11:59:38 AM
Its a dangerous recreational drug for those who are naturally lazy or un-motivated to begin with.

(Also for some people who learn the hard way about a neurological sensitivity to certain elements. Pot isn’t benign for all people.)

A friend of mine, who's brother I knew in high school but not as a friend, was hugely affected by pot use. I visited his house once and the difference in 2 years was massive. I didn't recognize him, and simply could not believe smoking pot could have resulted in such a change. While I was there he had an "episode" and had to be physically constrained.

I knew a guy in college who was like that, as well. He and his roommate were big pot smokers, but I could not for the life of me figure out why he did it, because smoking pot made him incredibly paranoid, and very agitated -- it was really freaky. Like, it had to be extremely, extremely unpleasant for him. But yet, he kept smoking it.

I have no idea where he is today, but I hope he's doing well -- and that he stopped smoking weed.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: joonifloofeefloo on October 22, 2018, 12:03:06 PM
I'm trying to parse your final statement.  To the best of my knowledge, marriage, parenting, business contracts, and Advil are all legal currently.

Oh yes. I'm saying I'd like to see comprehensive education in all of these (and home ownership, and investing, and...), before people select them, so that they can make fully informed decisions, with wisdom. I think this is where our society really flops. Surprising the shit out of people with adverse stuff isn't a fabulous approach.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Paul der Krake on October 22, 2018, 12:03:38 PM
The "pot saps all motivation" trope is overblown. There is no denying that overindulging leads to poor life choices, but honestly that's kind of true for anything done in excess. We don't regulate how much time you should be spending per week playing video games or mindlessly browsing the internet.

I'm sure there are deadbeats who let their kids go hungry so they can toke, but they're probably shitty parents to begin with. Do we really need to regulate what's an acceptable amount of consumption or can we just let people figure it out for themselves?
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: joonifloofeefloo on October 22, 2018, 12:07:25 PM
...smoking pot made him incredibly paranoid, and very agitated...

Yes. Some people experience intense paranoia, agitation, psychosis, etc. With education about strains, balances, sources, methods of ingestion, and his personal biological vulnerability to a given symptom, it's possible he could experience benefits of pot without adverse responses. Without education, he's left accessing whatever's on offer and just hoping for the best.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Kris on October 22, 2018, 12:08:09 PM
The "pot saps all motivation" trope is overblown. There is no denying that overindulging leads to poor life choices, but honestly that's kind of true for anything done in excess. We don't regulate how much time you should be spending per week playing video games or mindlessly browsing the internet.

I'm sure there are deadbeats who let their kids go hungry so they can toke, but they're probably shitty parents to begin with. Do we really need to regulate what's an acceptable amount of consumption or can we just let people figure it out for themselves?

Yes, I absolutely agree with this. Smoking pot once in a while is not going to magically sap your motivation any more than any other thing would. It really depends on degree of use. Being high every day for several hours at a time is going to rob you of motivation, for sure. Just like being drunk every day for several hours at a time. Or sitting around watching garbage TV for hours. Or gorging to excess on junk food
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Mississippi Mudstache on October 22, 2018, 12:11:48 PM
I stopped smoking pot a long time ago, precisely for the reasons you state above. I was finishing up a master's degree at the time, and decided: I can get a Ph.D., or I can smoke pot. I can't do both.

I was with a guy in a serious relationship when I stopped. He didn't. We broke up. He's still basically in the same place now that he was then in his life. Decades later. And weed is a big part of that.

This seems a bit like circular logic to me. If you were able to choose to stop using pot, then wasn't he as well? It sounds as though your internal motivation was the reason behind your decision to give up pot, and his lack of motivation was behind his decision to keep using. Is it possible that there is an underlying correlative factor between lack motivation and drug use, rather than a direct causal relationship?

Honestly, I'm just asking questions. As I've mentioned before, I've never used pot, but I would try it if I had the opportunity to use it legally. I'm not remotely concerned that I could become dependent on it. Intoxication is often enjoyable, but not something I seek out except on rare occasions.

Of course. That's what Slee_Stack said in his post, which I quoted in order to agree with it:

"Its a dangerous recreational drug for those who are naturally lazy or un-motivated to begin with."

I was able to pull myself away, because of motivation. But I did so because I recognized that it was already negatively affecting my life, and making me lazy and unmotivated.

Thankfully, I was un-lazy and un-unmotivated enough to do so. My ex-boyfriend was not.

I get that, but lots of people are prone to self-medicating to escape an unpalatable reality. I mostly know people whose drug of choice is alcohol, and as mentioned many times in this thread, that's not necessarily a better alternative. Saying that weed is "a dangerous recreational drug for those who are naturally lazy or un-motivated" sort of implies that there are recreational drugs that would be a better fit for lazy people. Are there? (That's a serious question)

I guess I'm just of the opinion that being lazy or unmotivated is the greater risk factor to having an unsatisfying life, versus availability/legality of weed.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: maizeman on October 22, 2018, 12:22:13 PM
I get that, but lots of people are prone to self-medicating to escape an unpalatable reality. I mostly know people whose drug of choice is alcohol, and as mentioned many times in this thread, that's not necessarily a better alternative. Saying that weed is "a dangerous recreational drug for those who are naturally lazy or un-motivated" sort of implies that there are recreational drugs that would be a better fit for lazy people. Are there? (That's a serious question)

I guess I'm just of the opinion that being lazy or unmotivated is the greater risk factor to having an unsatisfying life, versus availability/legality of weed.

For the self medicating to escape an unpalatable reality set, it can also be hard to separate cause and effect. Life sucks, so you turn to a recreational drug (whether EtOh, THC, or something illegal) to make yourself be less bothered by your life, but doing so means you're allowing your life to get worse through neglect, which makes you more driven to escape with recreational drugs and so on.

This dynamic isn't unique to chemical-based forms of escapism either. I remember seeing the same dynamic play out in college with people who got sucked into MMO games because they were stressed out about getting bad grades, which meant they didn't study, which meant they sought more escape in video games and so on until they failed out.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Kris on October 22, 2018, 12:24:27 PM
I stopped smoking pot a long time ago, precisely for the reasons you state above. I was finishing up a master's degree at the time, and decided: I can get a Ph.D., or I can smoke pot. I can't do both.

I was with a guy in a serious relationship when I stopped. He didn't. We broke up. He's still basically in the same place now that he was then in his life. Decades later. And weed is a big part of that.

This seems a bit like circular logic to me. If you were able to choose to stop using pot, then wasn't he as well? It sounds as though your internal motivation was the reason behind your decision to give up pot, and his lack of motivation was behind his decision to keep using. Is it possible that there is an underlying correlative factor between lack motivation and drug use, rather than a direct causal relationship?

Honestly, I'm just asking questions. As I've mentioned before, I've never used pot, but I would try it if I had the opportunity to use it legally. I'm not remotely concerned that I could become dependent on it. Intoxication is often enjoyable, but not something I seek out except on rare occasions.

Of course. That's what Slee_Stack said in his post, which I quoted in order to agree with it:

"Its a dangerous recreational drug for those who are naturally lazy or un-motivated to begin with."

I was able to pull myself away, because of motivation. But I did so because I recognized that it was already negatively affecting my life, and making me lazy and unmotivated.

Thankfully, I was un-lazy and un-unmotivated enough to do so. My ex-boyfriend was not.

I get that, but lots of people are prone to self-medicating to escape an unpalatable reality. I mostly know people whose drug of choice is alcohol, and as mentioned many times in this thread, that's not necessarily a better alternative. Saying that weed is "a dangerous recreational drug for those who are naturally lazy or un-motivated" sort of implies that there are recreational drugs that would be a better fit for lazy people. Are there? (That's a serious question)

I guess I'm just of the opinion that being lazy or unmotivated is the greater risk factor to having an unsatisfying life, versus availability/legality of weed.


You have said that you've never smoked pot. So I'll just say that pot is a drug that makes people have a tendency to want to hang out and just chill. Listen to music, or watch movies, or just hang around and talk -- and eventually, eat a bunch of delicious food.  So, to answer your question, are there recreational drugs that would be a better fit for lazy people -- the implication, I guess, being a drug that wouldn't just exacerbate laziness?

I mean, if you're speaking strictly from a motivational sense, and not in a "long term damage" sense, then sure. Cocaine, for example.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Paul der Krake on October 22, 2018, 12:25:16 PM
...smoking pot made him incredibly paranoid, and very agitated...

Yes. Some people experience intense paranoia, agitation, psychosis, etc. With education about strains, balances, sources, methods of ingestion, and his personal biological vulnerability to a given symptom, it's possible he could experience benefits of pot without adverse responses. Without education, he's left accessing whatever's on offer and just hoping for the best.
And some people are lactose-intolerant, or allergic to pollen, or beans make them fart, or whatever. They figure that out on their own with little "education" and are able to regulate what they ingest based on their previous responses. Pot isn't this super addictive magic substance that gets you hooked from the get go and leaves you no choice but to come back for more. If someone keeps consuming pot when it's making him paranoid, he's an idiot. His friends should point out that he's being and idiot instead of feeling sorry for his self-inflicted wound.

I know that bottom shelf tequila gives me terrible headaches. I found that out after a couple encounters with the stuff, after which I decided not to consume any more of it.

You can try putting training wheels on everything but true idiots will always find a way to the nearby ditch.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: joonifloofeefloo on October 22, 2018, 12:27:19 PM
And some people are lactose-intolerant, or allergic to pollen, or beans make them fart, or whatever. They figure that out on their own with little "education" and are able to regulate what they ingest based on their previous responses.

Yes. But a fart doesn't equate in impact with psychosis.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Slee_stack on October 22, 2018, 12:58:01 PM
I'm still in support of marijuana legalization... I'm just not buying the argument that it isn't harmful just because it isn't physically addictive.

If someone has a negative natural tendency in a sober state, its probably not a good idea to use a drug that exacerbates it.

My pothead relative talks excitedly about pot in 80% or better of any conversation you have with them.  They are WAY too into it.   They always say how safe it is compared to other drugs.  They rarely talk about their (lack of) job/income, how well (or not) they are doing in school, and certainly not about how much money they borrow from other relatives to live independently

Go figure.

In this case, alcohol would probably be a safer drug for them....at least for trying to get their life on track.  Pot definitely isn't.

Anecdotally, I'd say  that maybe half of the pot users I've come across seem to handle it responsibly.  Maybe most do.  Hopefully most do. 

One thing with alcohol is that there is a much greater negative physical effect if you over indulge.  I wonder if a lack of hangover (or similar) for pot doesn't also make it a little more dangerous for a user to go to it more often and longer.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: ketchup on October 22, 2018, 01:35:30 PM
As far as negative impacts of pot use, I think Randy Marsh of South Park put it well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_pSXV8S-Gw

Stan: I've been told a lot of things about pot, but I've come to find out a lot of those things aren't true! So I don't know what to believe!

Randy: Well, Stan, the truth is marijuana probably isn't gonna make you kill people, and it most likely isn't gonna fund terrorism, but… well, son, pot makes you feel fine with being bored. And it's when you're bored that you should be learning some new skill or discovering some new science or being creative. If you smoke pot you may grow up to find out that you aren't good at anything.

I've witnessed this in a few people.

(As I said in my first post, I do support legalization.)
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: PoutineLover on October 22, 2018, 01:43:55 PM
I see a lot of misconceptions about weed here. As recreational smoker, I know a lot of people who use it. For most of them, it's an occasional indulgence, the same way most people use alcohol to relax after a long day, hang out with friends in an altered mindset, or make ordinary situations more fun. Most people go through periods where they smoke a lot, and gradually adult responsibilities take over and they use it less or stop completely. Some people use it problematically, it impacts their ability to do other things they should be doing, they experience adverse mental effects, or they smoke so much they fail out of school or can't find a job to support themselves. I know one person who has schizophrenia and also smokes a lot (plus alcohol, tobacco, and other drugs) but I don't think it's possible to definitively determine that he became schizophrenic because he smoked pot, there are way too many other factors.
I do believe that now that it's legalized, there will be better research, the ability to know exactly what you are buying, more availability of specialized products like concentrates and more recognition that it is not some scary dangerous substance that leads to disastrous circumstances for everyone who uses it.
Tobacco and alcohol are addictive, and legal. Most people who use them aren't degenerates, and neither are most people who smoke weed. Legalization brings it out in the open, and there will be some social changes, but I think it's going to be mostly positive. The people who are most at risk and need help managing their addictions can get help without the same kind of stigma. I personally believe that we'd all be better off if all drugs were legal and sold with quality controls, taxes, and stigma-free resources available for users, but I doubt that will ever happen on a large scale. Until then, it seems like a lot of money and resources will be wasted on criminalizing people who mostly just need help, and don't pose a danger to anyone but themselves.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: nkt0 on October 22, 2018, 02:05:02 PM
Anyone have thoughts on *Canada* rather than weed? :D
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: ketchup on October 22, 2018, 02:10:13 PM
Anyone have thoughts on *Canada* rather than weed? :D
I'm in favor of Canada, though I've only ever been to the Vanvouver airport, and that was about 15 years ago as a derpy American middle school kid.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Dabnasty on October 22, 2018, 02:16:04 PM
As far as negative impacts of pot use, I think Randy Marsh of South Park put it well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_pSXV8S-Gw

Stan: I've been told a lot of things about pot, but I've come to find out a lot of those things aren't true! So I don't know what to believe!

Randy: Well, Stan, the truth is marijuana probably isn't gonna make you kill people, and it most likely isn't gonna fund terrorism, but… well, son, pot makes you feel fine with being bored. And it's when you're bored that you should be learning some new skill or discovering some new science or being creative. If you smoke pot you may grow up to find out that you aren't good at anything.

I've witnessed this in a few people.

(As I said in my first post, I do support legalization.)

Much truth here. Also, smartphones do this too. Possibly worse because they can fill every little crack in your day that may have been boredom and instead became a moment to check...something. There's always something. You can't get high for 10 minutes while you wait for the bus and then get un-high.

On the other hand, a big part of the message of this blog is about being satisfied with what you have rather than wanting what you don't. I think weed can play a role there as well. When balanced with the other needs of life, weed is a good way to have some fun with very little use of resources. Outside of legality issues, weed would be extremely cheap.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Slee_stack on October 22, 2018, 02:18:08 PM
Anyone have thoughts on *Canada* rather than weed? :D
I'm in favor of Canada, though I've only ever been to the Vanvouver airport, and that was about 15 years ago as a derpy American middle school kid.
I was in Vancouver for a few days a month ago.  Definitely could smell pot on every other block.  Vancouver was a little pricey for my taste.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Dabnasty on October 22, 2018, 02:19:37 PM
Anyone have thoughts on *Canada* rather than weed? :D

I think the general consensus has been in favor of the change. I would be interested in hearing some of the specifics on what the new laws will entail and how they might vary by province. I haven't done much reading yet, but it sounds like there will be a limited number of dispensaries?

Also would love to hear from someone who has visited a dispensary, especially if they've been to one in the US and can compare.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Paul der Krake on October 22, 2018, 02:25:51 PM
I'm not super sold on Canada. There just haven't been enough studies to determine whether letting them have their own country is a net positive for the world. We should educate the public so they can decide for themselves.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: maizeman on October 22, 2018, 02:37:09 PM
Anyone have thoughts on *Canada* rather than weed? :D
I'm in favor of Canada, though I've only ever been to the Vanvouver airport, and that was about 15 years ago as a derpy American middle school kid.

I'm generally in favor of Canada as well. There may be somewhere in the USA where there are whole fast food restaurants devoted to poutine, but if so I've yet to find one. The Canadians I interact with have also generally been quite nice people. A few of them were complete jerks, but so are plenty of non-Canadians I don't see any evidence that being Canadian is what caused them to be jerks.

On the other hand, we already have five other major english speaking countries (plus a lot of smaller ones in the Caribbean), so I worry about the effects of adding a sixth.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: PoutineLover on October 22, 2018, 02:42:26 PM
Anyone have thoughts on *Canada* rather than weed? :D

I think the general consensus has been in favor of the change. I would be interested in hearing some of the specifics on what the new laws will entail and how they might vary by province. I haven't done much reading yet, but it sounds like there will be a limited number of dispensaries?

Also would love to hear from someone who has visited a dispensary, especially if they've been to one in the US and can compare.
I want to check out the new dispensary in Montreal, but the line has been around the block since it opened, and I don't want it that bad. Plus, I've heard that they are having supply problems and a lot of products are out of stock.
I've been to a few different dispensaries in Seattle, Vancouver, Ottawa, Toronto and Halifax, but it was only legal in Seattle. I'm looking forward to seeing what the legal ones here look like.
In Quebec, they are thinking about raising the age to 21 and banning consumption in public places. Which kinda defies the point of it being legal if you ask me. For now, in Montreal, basically the same rules as tobacco smoking apply. They've also banned growing plants at home, even though that's legal everywhere else in Canada.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: GuitarStv on October 22, 2018, 02:43:31 PM
Anyone have thoughts on *Canada* rather than weed? :D
I'm in favor of Canada, though I've only ever been to the Vanvouver airport, and that was about 15 years ago as a derpy American middle school kid.

I'm generally in favor of Canada as well. There may be somewhere in the USA where there are whole fast food restaurants devoted to poutine, but if so I've yet to find one. The Canadians I interact with have also generally been quite nice people. A few of them were complete jerks, but so are plenty of non-Canadians I don't see any evidence that being Canadian is what caused them to be jerks.

On the other hand, we already have five other major english speaking countries (plus a lot of smaller ones in the Caribbean), so I worry about the effects of adding a sixth.

There's only one English speaking country though.  None of the others say 'about' quite right.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: ketchup on October 22, 2018, 03:23:44 PM
Anyone have thoughts on *Canada* rather than weed? :D
I'm in favor of Canada, though I've only ever been to the Vanvouver airport, and that was about 15 years ago as a derpy American middle school kid.

I'm generally in favor of Canada as well. There may be somewhere in the USA where there are whole fast food restaurants devoted to poutine, but if so I've yet to find one. The Canadians I interact with have also generally been quite nice people. A few of them were complete jerks, but so are plenty of non-Canadians I don't see any evidence that being Canadian is what caused them to be jerks.

On the other hand, we already have five other major english speaking countries (plus a lot of smaller ones in the Caribbean), so I worry about the effects of adding a sixth.

There's only one English speaking country though.  None of the others say 'about' quite right.
Maybe you guys should annex Minnesota.  They get it pretty close.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: seattlecyclone on October 22, 2018, 03:28:13 PM
I live in Washington. We've had legal marijuana for recreational use for about four years, and it's been legal for medicinal use for even longer.

I've never touched the stuff and have no real desire to, though I'm not opposed to trying it once just to see what all the fuss is about.

At my previous house in a nice neighborhood there were three marijuana shops within walking distance, one of which started out as a medical dispensary before the recreational legalization and two of which opened up afterward. I never noticed any ill effects from having these businesses or their customers in my neighborhood.

I'm happy to see one less legal avenue that can be abused by our biased criminal justice system to incarcerate racial minority citizens at alarming rates. That's the biggest effect of this in my mind.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Kris on October 22, 2018, 03:35:06 PM
Anyone have thoughts on *Canada* rather than weed? :D
I'm in favor of Canada, though I've only ever been to the Vanvouver airport, and that was about 15 years ago as a derpy American middle school kid.

I'm generally in favor of Canada as well. There may be somewhere in the USA where there are whole fast food restaurants devoted to poutine, but if so I've yet to find one. The Canadians I interact with have also generally been quite nice people. A few of them were complete jerks, but so are plenty of non-Canadians I don't see any evidence that being Canadian is what caused them to be jerks.

On the other hand, we already have five other major english speaking countries (plus a lot of smaller ones in the Caribbean), so I worry about the effects of adding a sixth.

There's only one English speaking country though.  None of the others say 'about' quite right.
Maybe you guys should annex Minnesota.  They get it pretty close.

OMG, PLEASE annex us! I promise I'll even start using your spelling!
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on October 22, 2018, 06:54:16 PM
Anyone have thoughts on *Canada* rather than weed? :D
I'm in favor of Canada, though I've only ever been to the Vanvouver airport, and that was about 15 years ago as a derpy American middle school kid.

I'm generally in favor of Canada as well. There may be somewhere in the USA where there are whole fast food restaurants devoted to poutine, but if so I've yet to find one. The Canadians I interact with have also generally been quite nice people. A few of them were complete jerks, but so are plenty of non-Canadians I don't see any evidence that being Canadian is what caused them to be jerks.

On the other hand, we already have five other major english speaking countries (plus a lot of smaller ones in the Caribbean), so I worry about the effects of adding a sixth.

There's only one English speaking country though.  None of the others say 'about' quite right.
Maybe you guys should annex Minnesota.  They get it pretty close.

OMG, PLEASE annex us! I promise I'll even start using your spelling!

I'd prefer to have our 11th province be the Turks & Caicos, but if you insist . . . . . .
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Indexer on October 22, 2018, 10:09:47 PM
That's cool. I don't smoke pot(at least not since college), but I fully support it's legalization. I know people with professional careers who smoke on a regular basis and I wouldn't call any of them addicts. They just like to smoke to relax after a long day, the same way people would drink a beer.


We may have to agree to disagree here.  I guarantee I can consume one beer or one glass of wine and not register a change in my BAC.  Understand that's not true for everyone, but it's true for me.

I really hope you don't understand what you just said. BAC= blood alcohol concentration; the % of alcohol floating around in your blood. You're claiming you can drink a beer or a glass of wine and the percentage of alcohol in your blood won't increase. It's one thing to say it won't increase enough to put you over the threshold where you're impaired. That's not what you are saying here though. You are literally saying your body doesn't absorb alcohol.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on October 23, 2018, 07:01:16 AM
That's cool. I don't smoke pot(at least not since college), but I fully support it's legalization. I know people with professional careers who smoke on a regular basis and I wouldn't call any of them addicts. They just like to smoke to relax after a long day, the same way people would drink a beer.


We may have to agree to disagree here.  I guarantee I can consume one beer or one glass of wine and not register a change in my BAC.  Understand that's not true for everyone, but it's true for me.

I really hope you don't understand what you just said. BAC= blood alcohol concentration; the % of alcohol floating around in your blood. You're claiming you can drink a beer or a glass of wine and the percentage of alcohol in your blood won't increase. It's one thing to say it won't increase enough to put you over the threshold where you're impaired. That's not what you are saying here though. You are literally saying your body doesn't absorb alcohol.

Alcohol is soluble in body fat, so the other alternative is Chris22 has so much body fat that the alcohol goes straight from stomach to blood to fat stores.  But then it would be slowly released from fat stores, so there would still be some blood alcohol, just in tiny quantities.  So that theory is a wipe.

If Chris22 just isn't feeling the alcohol, it could be that the beer is drunk so slowly and his (her) liver enzymes are so efficient that the alcohol is metabolized almost as fast as it is taken in.  But still BAC would be some tiny fraction.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Mississippi Mudstache on October 23, 2018, 07:11:54 AM
As far as negative impacts of pot use, I think Randy Marsh of South Park put it well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_pSXV8S-Gw

Stan: I've been told a lot of things about pot, but I've come to find out a lot of those things aren't true! So I don't know what to believe!

Randy: Well, Stan, the truth is marijuana probably isn't gonna make you kill people, and it most likely isn't gonna fund terrorism, but… well, son, pot makes you feel fine with being bored. And it's when you're bored that you should be learning some new skill or discovering some new science or being creative. If you smoke pot you may grow up to find out that you aren't good at anything.

I've witnessed this in a few people.

(As I said in my first post, I do support legalization.)

I remember that episode. Amazing that a satirical, foul-mouthed cartoon provides more sensible advice regarding drugs than our own government. I remember taking the D.A.R.E. program when I was in 5th grade, then slowly realizing over the next decade that half the stuff they taught was bullshit. Makes you question everything they teach. "Stoner culture" was simply not a thing around any social group I've been a part of. Practically everyone I knew in college or high school who smoked weed grew up to be productive, well-adjusted members of society. None of them that I have remained in touch will still partake on a regular basis. The whole thing just seems overblown to me. But my sense may be biased by the simple fact that I have a fairly winnowed social group and simply don't hang out with people who might be susceptible to weed-assisted laziness.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: jim555 on October 23, 2018, 09:47:45 AM
I thought in the '70s it was going to be made legal.  I was only sub teen but remember head shops and it seemed every teenager was smoking it.  Then the "WoD" in the '80s came in and everything went backwards.  Long overdue.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: MrOnyx on October 24, 2018, 01:51:19 AM
The latest research showed that Medical Cannabis (https://www.zenabis.com/) has many benefits and helps people struggle with pain, anxiety, stress and different disorders.

You can get CBD oil medicines here in the UK. I believe it's prescribed for just that - anxiety, stress, pain relief, etc.

Still illegal to smoke it, though...
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: J_Oden on October 24, 2018, 10:51:53 AM
I was actually very involved in Amendment 64 here in CO, even though I hadn't smoked weed since High School. Shoot, even after it passed, I didn't smoke for 5 years. So from a political and societal standpoint, I almost always lean in favor of legalization. It's easy to see how decriminalization prevents further marginalization if it had that effect (drug laws do, here in the US), so it becomes much less of a leap to full legalization. It's hard to view legalization of substances in a vacuum, so comparisons of what is currently legal become part of the decision making process. Since legally speaking, precedent is important in the US system, it's not surprising either.

I am really glad to see Canada legalize it at the federal level. I'm guessing that it's going to pay off in a big way, but I'm watching this unfold. I know that a surprisingly awesome thing here was the testing required, and the transparency required to the end consumer. The amount of data available on specific batches is amazing. For now, that winds up being more of an intellectual exercise than anything useful (besides personally). However, once legalization happened here, suddenly the opportunity to learn more comes into the light, with all the benefits (like peer reviewing) that entails. There have been hints of the benefits for decades now, but I feel confident in saying that we have gained more empirical data in the past 5 years than in the past 30.

This brings me to a point that @joonifloofeefloo brought up, and not the one that made me giggle (I wanted to say "It depends on the fart"). Education and legalization going hand in hand. That does seem like the best way of doing things, but I don't think it's possible. Having something be illegal means there is no good reason to learn more about it (from a funding perspective). So I can't really envision a situation where that would happen together. By holding that perspective (along with the idea that the more you know the better off you are), I think that legalization is the only way to learn enough to be able to educate accurately. I don't think it will happen with weed, but that could create a temporary troublesome spot for sure. I just can't think of a better way where things will actually get done.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: joonifloofeefloo on October 24, 2018, 11:04:43 AM
It depends on the fart

LOL

Also, I know you previously watched the video I linked to, so that you have a sense of where I come from. I appreciate that :)

In the meantime, I continue having full conversations with my child about pot, our personal vulnerabilities, DUI, and so on...and that illegal doesn't mean unsafe and legal doesn't mean safe, etc.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: rocketpj on October 25, 2018, 11:31:29 AM
I haven't smoked pot in many years, but I certainly enjoyed it a lot at one point.

I've seen every variation of outcome.  Friends of mine who were struggling with demons smoked pot for awhile and then moved onto harder drugs and various disasters (such as death).  Others who smoked pot ended up becoming lawyers and doctors etc.  Many of them are just regular folks, some of them who still smoke a bit of pot.

I have no personal experience to suggest that the people who ended up spiraling out of control wouldn't have done that even if pot didn't exist. 

In my opinion, there are points in life where people on different trajectories all happen to be in roughly the same place.  My consumption of alcohol is nothing like it was at age 21 when I was living in a house in Banff with 6 roommates and working in a bar.  For many of us, that was the peak of our alcohol and other substance consumption, and after a few months I was tired of it and moved on. Some of us were just getting warmed up, and have spent the last 25 years getting further into addiction and self destructive behaviours.

None of our trajectories were caused by marijuana, it was just there.  The (future) drunks and addicts were on their way there anyway.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: MrOnyx on October 26, 2018, 03:38:01 AM
I haven't smoked pot in many years, but I certainly enjoyed it a lot at one point.

I've seen every variation of outcome.  Friends of mine who were struggling with demons smoked pot for awhile and then moved onto harder drugs and various disasters (such as death).  Others who smoked pot ended up becoming lawyers and doctors etc.  Many of them are just regular folks, some of them who still smoke a bit of pot.

I have no personal experience to suggest that the people who ended up spiraling out of control wouldn't have done that even if pot didn't exist. 


In my opinion, there are points in life where people on different trajectories all happen to be in roughly the same place.  My consumption of alcohol is nothing like it was at age 21 when I was living in a house in Banff with 6 roommates and working in a bar.  For many of us, that was the peak of our alcohol and other substance consumption, and after a few months I was tired of it and moved on. Some of us were just getting warmed up, and have spent the last 25 years getting further into addiction and self destructive behaviours.

None of our trajectories were caused by marijuana, it was just there.  The (future) drunks and addicts were on their way there anyway.

This is the problem. People who choose to abuse substances don't do so just because they want to break the law. This is proved by people who choose alcohol instead of something that is illegal. It is a form of escapism that, for some people, is hard to resist, and unfortunately it becomes something that people become dependent on - being able to escape the situations in their lives that resulted in them turning to this.

The war on drugs is just the governments' way of trying to attack a symptom of what is actually a far deeper problem; the problem with our system as a whole that allows for ordinary people to feel the need to turn to substances in order to get away from it. In an ideal world, everyone would have a sufficient support network of meaningful connections with other people that create an atmosphere of happiness and fulfilment where they do not need to turn to drugs just to cope - because there is no harsh reality for them to feel the need to escape from. I know this sounds like an idea from la la happy land, and may seem far from achievable. Indeed it might be unachievable, but we can start by treating addicts as victims rather than criminals. That's why I support legalisation.

This turned into quite the rant. I hope I haven't spoken over or against anyone else with this. Hopefully someone finds it interesting...

Here are a couple of nicely animated videos that explore the topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJUXLqNHCaI
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Adam Zapple on October 27, 2018, 11:23:57 AM
I haven't smoked pot in many years, but I certainly enjoyed it a lot at one point.

I've seen every variation of outcome.  Friends of mine who were struggling with demons smoked pot for awhile and then moved onto harder drugs and various disasters (such as death).  Others who smoked pot ended up becoming lawyers and doctors etc.  Many of them are just regular folks, some of them who still smoke a bit of pot.

I have no personal experience to suggest that the people who ended up spiraling out of control wouldn't have done that even if pot didn't exist. 


In my opinion, there are points in life where people on different trajectories all happen to be in roughly the same place.  My consumption of alcohol is nothing like it was at age 21 when I was living in a house in Banff with 6 roommates and working in a bar.  For many of us, that was the peak of our alcohol and other substance consumption, and after a few months I was tired of it and moved on. Some of us were just getting warmed up, and have spent the last 25 years getting further into addiction and self destructive behaviours.

None of our trajectories were caused by marijuana, it was just there.  The (future) drunks and addicts were on their way there anyway.

This is the problem. People who choose to abuse substances don't do so just because they want to break the law. This is proved by people who choose alcohol instead of something that is illegal. It is a form of escapism that, for some people, is hard to resist, and unfortunately it becomes something that people become dependent on - being able to escape the situations in their lives that resulted in them turning to this.

The war on drugs is just the governments' way of trying to attack a symptom of what is actually a far deeper problem; the problem with our system as a whole that allows for ordinary people to feel the need to turn to substances in order to get away from it. In an ideal world, everyone would have a sufficient support network of meaningful connections with other people that create an atmosphere of happiness and fulfilment where they do not need to turn to drugs just to cope - because there is no harsh reality for them to feel the need to escape from. I know this sounds like an idea from la la happy land, and may seem far from achievable. Indeed it might be unachievable, but we can start by treating addicts as victims rather than criminals. That's why I support legalisation.

This turned into quite the rant. I hope I haven't spoken over or against anyone else with this. Hopefully someone finds it interesting...

Here are a couple of nicely animated videos that explore the topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJUXLqNHCaI

Great links.  Very thought provoking, although I am not totally convinced that legalization is the answer.  You've given me a new topic to study though so thanks!
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Zikoris on October 27, 2018, 11:46:04 AM
Report from one of the of weed consumption capitals of Canada - Vancouver. Interestingly, while I was expecting to see a lot more people smoking weed publicly (at least temporarily), there doesn't seem to be any difference so far.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: GuitarStv on October 27, 2018, 02:06:04 PM
Report from one of the of weed consumption capitals of Canada - Vancouver. Interestingly, while I was expecting to see a lot more people smoking weed publicly (at least temporarily), there doesn't seem to be any difference so far.

I wonder how much the shortages are playing into that.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Zikoris on October 27, 2018, 02:32:52 PM
Report from one of the of weed consumption capitals of Canada - Vancouver. Interestingly, while I was expecting to see a lot more people smoking weed publicly (at least temporarily), there doesn't seem to be any difference so far.

I wonder how much the shortages are playing into that.

I don't think there's any shortage of weed in Vancouver.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: rocketpj on October 27, 2018, 08:57:35 PM
Report from one of the of weed consumption capitals of Canada - Vancouver. Interestingly, while I was expecting to see a lot more people smoking weed publicly (at least temporarily), there doesn't seem to be any difference so far.

I wonder how much the shortages are playing into that.

BC has been the weed production capital of Canada for decades.  There is no shortage of weed in BC whatsoever, including in the legal avenues.

Side note, I own a commercial property in a small town.  About 65% of the other buildings on my block are all or partially given over to legal marijuana production.  And they have been for some time now. 

The reality is that any shortages on the legal market, at this point, are more than covered by the black market.  That will likely change as legal weed supply chains get more mature in the other provinces, but I doubt one single weed consumer has had to 'go without' any time in the last 30 years around here.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Archiis on October 30, 2018, 03:46:59 AM
Where I met a stupid joke about the fact that in educational institutions studying the cultivation of marijuana will be the only subject with 100% attendance))
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: pbkmaine on October 30, 2018, 04:59:29 AM
I would like to have a little jar of marijuana gummies by my bed for nights I have trouble sleeping.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Telecaster on October 30, 2018, 05:34:07 AM

I guess the question is whether making more of the currently available intoxicants legal will increase the total amount of time people spend intoxicated or not. My guess is that we won't see a huge shift, and most of the time spent smoking pot by the population as a whole would either already have happened illegally, be substitution away from alcohol, or substitution away from intoxicants that remain illegal (not sure how big that last slice is, but it's probably not absolutely zero).

But I could well be wrong. Does anyone know if there are any studies from Colorado or Washington on this question?

I live in Washington.   I don't know if substitution has been studied specifically.   I imagine pot and alcohol are often used together.   I do know that there has been no increase in minors using marijuana, and there has be no increase in traffic accidents.  There has been an increase in insurance claims however.   Adult usage has increased quite a bit, but still only a small percentage of the populations partakes regularly (14%).   

IIRC, the state collects more marijuana taxes than liquor tax, and Washington has the highest alcohol taxes in the country.   
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: pecunia on November 10, 2018, 04:51:20 PM

-snip-

-snip-

-snip-

IIRC, the state collects more marijuana taxes than liquor tax, and Washington has the highest alcohol taxes in the country.   

Michigan just voted to make it legal.  Sounds good from the tax issue.

How's that work for border crossings?  If it's legal in Michigan and legal in Ontario, do the Feds still roust you out of the car and clamp you in leg irons if you possess a bit?  Would it only be illegal at the crossing point?  Will they chemically sample my brownies?
Title: Re: Canada legalizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: markbike528CBX on November 10, 2018, 05:54:22 PM
pecunia,
 Marijuana is still a Federal (US) Schedule 1 illegal drug.  Even in states that have legalized it possession is still a Federal crime.  Crossing state boundaries would involve Feds via the interstate commerce clause in the US Constitution (used by the Feds to grab power).

Borders and airports are Federally controlled places, so be careful out there.

Getting a prosecutor, (often an elected official) grand jury, judge (an elected official), and a jury of peers to get a guilty verdict in a legalized state might be interesting.   It probably might be used to confiscate assets (cars, houses etc), not to actually get a verdict.

Don't know if Fed law has been applied in full legalization states, I know in medical marijuana states, it was applied a lot.

Non-US note, Schedule 1 illegal drugs also include heroin, LSD, ETC.   Morphine is not in Schedule 1, as it has "approved medical uses".   
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Paul der Krake on November 10, 2018, 06:24:34 PM
Michigan just voted to make it legal.  Sounds good from the tax issue.

How's that work for border crossings?  If it's legal in Michigan and legal in Ontario, do the Feds still roust you out of the car and clamp you in leg irons if you possess a bit?  Would it only be illegal at the crossing point?  Will they chemically sample my brownies?
As far as the federal government is concerned, marijuana is still illegal everywhere, not just "at the border". Federal agents kinda sorta look the other way in states that legalized it, but that's just Uncle Sam trying to be conciliatory without really giving away legal supremacy. The border is this weird place where not only you temporarily surrender your usual rights, and it is entirely run by federal agents. They are trained to be on high alert and all their rules apply.

Now as markbike528CBX pointed out, there is this whole interstate commerce thing going on, and things get complicated.

I live in Washington, which not only legalized marijuana a while ago. Let's think about the implications of driving around the Pacific Northwest with a bunch of joints in the trunk.

1) Driving within Washington: no problem. You'd have to somehow be stopped by federal agents. Sure there is this law that says anywhere within 150 miles from the border is "the border" and you can be stopped and searched at any time for no reason, but in practice the odds of getting in trouble are minuscule.

2) Driving from Washington to Oregon: probably no problem. Both WA and OR have instructed their law enforcement to not do anything and not report it to the feds, so the odds of getting in trouble here are just as low as in option #1.

3) Driving from Washington to Idaho: bad idea. The Idaho state trooper was NOT instructed to let these things go. They charge you with some state crime, and upon learning that you came from out of state, refer the case to the feds and tada, you get trouble from them too.

4) Driving from Washington to BC: very bad idea.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: ketchup on November 10, 2018, 07:13:17 PM
Michigan just legalized it, and Illinois elected a governor likely to legalize it sometime next year: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-pritzker-illinois-marijuana-legalize-legislature-20181108-story.html

It's only a matter of time until the rest of the dominoes fall like a house of cards.  Checkmate.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Sugaree on November 10, 2018, 09:10:43 PM

I guess the question is whether making more of the currently available intoxicants legal will increase the total amount of time people spend intoxicated or not. My guess is that we won't see a huge shift, and most of the time spent smoking pot by the population as a whole would either already have happened illegally, be substitution away from alcohol, or substitution away from intoxicants that remain illegal (not sure how big that last slice is, but it's probably not absolutely zero).

But I could well be wrong. Does anyone know if there are any studies from Colorado or Washington on this question?

I live in Washington.   I don't know if substitution has been studied specifically.   I imagine pot and alcohol are often used together.   I do know that there has been no increase in minors using marijuana, and there has be no increase in traffic accidents.  There has been an increase in insurance claims however.   Adult usage has increased quite a bit, but still only a small percentage of the populations partakes regularly (14%).   

IIRC, the state collects more marijuana taxes than liquor tax, and Washington has the highest alcohol taxes in the country.

Adult usage has increased or the number of adults who admit to usage has increased?
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: maizeman on November 10, 2018, 09:14:42 PM

I guess the question is whether making more of the currently available intoxicants legal will increase the total amount of time people spend intoxicated or not. My guess is that we won't see a huge shift, and most of the time spent smoking pot by the population as a whole would either already have happened illegally, be substitution away from alcohol, or substitution away from intoxicants that remain illegal (not sure how big that last slice is, but it's probably not absolutely zero).

But I could well be wrong. Does anyone know if there are any studies from Colorado or Washington on this question?

I live in Washington.   I don't know if substitution has been studied specifically.   I imagine pot and alcohol are often used together.   I do know that there has been no increase in minors using marijuana, and there has be no increase in traffic accidents.  There has been an increase in insurance claims however.   Adult usage has increased quite a bit, but still only a small percentage of the populations partakes regularly (14%).   

IIRC, the state collects more marijuana taxes than liquor tax, and Washington has the highest alcohol taxes in the country.

Adult usage has increased or the number of adults who admit to usage has increased?

Well that's the million dollar question. And it's one that, by definition, it's going to be impossible to answer statistically.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: jim555 on November 11, 2018, 12:42:16 AM
New York will legalize soon. The state Senate finally went blue and Cuomo has already started the process.
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: Dabnasty on November 11, 2018, 09:24:47 AM

I guess the question is whether making more of the currently available intoxicants legal will increase the total amount of time people spend intoxicated or not. My guess is that we won't see a huge shift, and most of the time spent smoking pot by the population as a whole would either already have happened illegally, be substitution away from alcohol, or substitution away from intoxicants that remain illegal (not sure how big that last slice is, but it's probably not absolutely zero).

But I could well be wrong. Does anyone know if there are any studies from Colorado or Washington on this question?

I live in Washington.   I don't know if substitution has been studied specifically.   I imagine pot and alcohol are often used together.   I do know that there has been no increase in minors using marijuana, and there has be no increase in traffic accidents.  There has been an increase in insurance claims however.   Adult usage has increased quite a bit, but still only a small percentage of the populations partakes regularly (14%).   

IIRC, the state collects more marijuana taxes than liquor tax, and Washington has the highest alcohol taxes in the country.

Adult usage has increased or the number of adults who admit to usage has increased?

Well that's the million dollar question. And it's one that, by definition, it's going to be impossible to answer statistically.

Does anyone know exactly how this data is collected?

I've only ever heard of polls and it seems pretty obvious that people are going to lie about whether or not they're breaking the law, even if the polls are anonymous. Based on the bolded I'm guessing the data is lacking?

Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: maizeman on November 11, 2018, 09:47:11 AM
For legal usage you can get good total consumption data because of detailed tax records. At least in states like CA you also have to show ID each time you purchase, so presumably it would be possible to distinguish between a few heavy users and many moderate to intermediate users.

For illegal usage, I don't know of a data source other than surveys or similarly biased things like looking at drug test results (people who think they will fail will tend to avoid actions that require taking them in the first place), or arrest records (says a lot more about changes in police enforcement policies/resources than adult usage rates).

What's interesting is that even when it was illegal in every state, about 1/3 of americans still admitted to having smoked it at some point in their lives on anonymous surveys.

(https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/wfaw_caeakkcidlhhfwzfg.png)
Title: Re: Canada leaglizes marijuana, what does everyone think?
Post by: The Fake Cheap on November 12, 2018, 02:29:39 PM

Michigan just voted to make it legal.  Sounds good from the tax issue.

How's that work for border crossings?  If it's legal in Michigan and legal in Ontario, do the Feds still roust you out of the car and clamp you in leg irons if you possess a bit?  Would it only be illegal at the crossing point?  Will they chemically sample my brownies?
[/quote]

Here in Canada, you can only have a max 30 grams with you.  You are allowed to carry this 30 games on domestic flights as well.  It is well communicated not to try to cross the border into the US with ANY amount of the stuff.