Author Topic: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?  (Read 43828 times)

Sailor Sam

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Here's the caveat though. I'm gay. The night Trump was elected I felt real and genuine fear.

Why?  I'm genuinely curious what Trump did during the campaign that made you feel he was a real threat to your existence.

Everything, and nothing. I've been thinking about your question all day, and that's what I've come up with.

It's been long enough since the campaign that memory has faded, so I went looking on the internet to jog my memory towards any particular highlights. Rea Cary sums it up best, as quoted on Wikipedia, saying Trump's public statements on LGBT issues as 'confusing and conflicting.' Probably because Trump doesn't give a good goddam about gay folks, for either love or hatred. So, there's my nothing.

What Trump does have to do is occasionally relax the absolute stranglehold he's got on the GOP's balls, else his handle will drop right off. Gay people happen to be one of the bones Trump is willing to throw the conservative party. He took Pence as his running mate, and Pence is pretty goddamn terrifying*. Two hours after Trump was sworn in, a slew of social issues simply disappeared from whitehouse.com. I doubt Trump pushed the button. I'm willing to believe that Trump didn't even know the button was being pushed. It was just a button he gave the GOP leaders, so they could feel like they still had things like spines. So, there's my everything. Trump is perfectly willing to use my life, and my job, and my marriage as a bargaining chip.

The neglect isn't benign, though. Once, when I was a very young adult a full grown man punched me in the face, and informed me that I was a faggot. Honestly, it was news to me because I am not, in fact, a faggot and the language was very confusing. But I was too busy bleeding and falling down to engage in much discourse. What I do remember is that there were different kinds of bystanders. The kind that rushed in, the kind that edged away, and the kind that nodded. The nod's were too civilized to punch me themselves, but they sure didn't mind when it happened. Trump has given the floor to the nod's, and that is why I am afraid.

Have I illuminated anything at all, @Syonyk?

*Then made that running mate the Vice President of the United States. Leaving me praying to a god I actually believe in to keep Trump hale and healthy, and alive. Live, you glorious bastard! Proving the universe is, in fact, made entirely of green cheese and irony.

Edit: wrong word
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 08:31:34 PM by Sailor Sam »

Syonyk

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Have I illuminated anything at all, @Syonyk?

Somewhat, and I appreciate the response.

Trump doesn't seem to care much for anyone in particular, though, and is still governing like the dog that finally caught the car, got his teeth stuck in the bumper, and has realized that the car is pulling onto the interstate.  I don't think he ever expected to win.

But, sadly, we'll get more leaders like him.  That sort of thing shows up in a dying empire.  Along with the ever increasing political polarization we see.

Travis

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #102 on: June 12, 2020, 10:59:54 PM »
I tried. I really did, but I said goodbye to a lot of old friends this week.  One of them moved out into the hills last year and her Facebook feed has slowly turned into a constant Trump rally and a copy/paste from every supremacist/conservative page out there.  After these protests kicked off, she changed exclusively to "blacks have nothing to be concerned about, and if you don't want to get killed by the police, don't commit crimes." She thought that last one was funny.  She's either too thick or just doesn't care that for segments of the population, you don't have to commit crimes anymore to be hurt or killed by the police.  Between her increasingly racist comments and the "let the military go crush all the terrorist protesters" a few of us dropped her. We've all been close friends for 25 years. 

I'm about to cut out a few other high school friends and former coworkers.  They've staked out their positions pretty clearly, with almost no room for debate.  For one of them 90% of what he posts are copy/paste from anti-BLM discussions and Foxnews clips while claiming to be out for equality. I've fact checked him into a corner several times and he blows off his obvious ignorance as "I'm just trying to get all sides of the debate" (and then goes right back to the one-sided rants).  He's upset that BLM is causing changes in society and cries about "mob rule."  He hasn't explicitly come out in support of the Army showing up, but he's razor close to saying it (and is retired Army himself).  Another friend is the wife of a cop in Texas and has been going nonstop about Blue Lives Matter. I get it, she's concerned about her husband; however, she claims everybody on the street protesting is a vandal and a rioter who is out to get her as well as her husband.  I haven't engaged her directly, but by her tone I have a feeling that if I pointed out the number of people her husband's department have nearly killed or flagrantly violated their Constitutional rights she'd be just fine with those outcomes.  My wacky religious aunt is still at it, this time her mantra is "the protesters aren't reading the bible and welfare should be cut."

I held my tongue on Facebook for the first 10 days of these events because I didn't want to overreact, I was hoping some of them were just venting and we'd go back to normal conversations, and there are aspects of this issue I simply can't say in public due to my job.  After dipping my toes into the discussion, I find that I can't reconcile their beliefs with my own.  Some of them believe sincerely that Antifa, BLM, protesters, journalists, bystanders, vandals, looters, and arsonists are all terrorists, solely responsible for society's problems, and all deserve the same fate.  I can't look past.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #103 on: June 13, 2020, 05:51:31 AM »
I don't think I've heard anyone say anything good about facebook for years now.  Your ex-friends sound like jerks.

Nick_Miller

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #104 on: June 13, 2020, 06:00:32 AM »
Travis, I'm right there with you.

I've struggled for years with this (hence why I created the thread) because I didn't want to be accused of "living in an echo chamber."

But I've learned to draw boundaries. Hard right-wingers get blocked. My FB feed is delightful now without all the garbage. In the past month, I've parted ways with someone I had long considered one of my very closest friends. He has just grown to be intolerable. We all have the right to draw boundaries for our mental health, for our families, and for society at large.

I am always up for conversation/debate re: movies, books, sports, etc., but I will not be "debating" whether or not black lives matter, whether trans folks matter, etc.

I think many white men just cringe at the thought that maybe "we" (white guys) have historically used our power in incredibly cruel and ignorant ways. Maybe we're the "bad guys?" I mean, as I read more about folks like Churchill and Leopold II and Woodrow Wilson (and more, and more), I realize how much history teachers/professors hid from us.

ctuser1

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #105 on: June 13, 2020, 06:07:31 AM »
I have a good friend who is a Trump supporter.

He is a good person. He is not racist, sexist, gun-nut or a bible-thumper (indeed he is not even a Christian by birth) and flinches at some of the things the orange one spews.

Why did he still vote for him? Because he wants American to be a "normal" country, and thinks that we pay too much a price for our "manifest destiny" legacy.

I vehemently disagree with him on this. To me, American has always been the country of Manifest Destiny - i.e. an young, abnormal (or super-normal), idealistic country. It's meant to be an idea more than a fixed set of people and the land. I don't believe it can survive without this!!

Even though I disagree with his desire to drag American to become a "normal" country, there is nothing immoral with his desire. So there is nothing in either of our thinking that would make us inferior or immoral in the other's eyes.

We simply don't talk about this topic any more. We agree to disagree, and still consider each other friends.

DadJokes

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #106 on: June 13, 2020, 06:15:32 AM »
If you take politics (something generally outside of your circle of control) so seriously that you can't be friends with people who disagree with you, then you might need to reassess how much you care about politics.

I just tell people that I don't discuss politics, and things work out just fine.

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #107 on: June 13, 2020, 06:40:02 AM »
Unfortunately this looks like just more of the ongoing politicization of darn near everything. 

In answer to the original question of "can you really be friends if your political beliefs are different?" then I'd say that's very much a YES.  It comes at a price, though: it generally means stowing your own views about politics and leaving them there when dealing people who are very political. And if it does come down to a discussion of politics either gently moving the discussion elsewhere or simply biting your tongue if you disagree. The friendship of people who are basically good individuals is worth more to me than any transient political silliness. But that's also easier for me than for most: I'm apolitical for the most part, I think our political faction duopoly in the US is a scam, and I refuse to vote*.  Having no dog in the fight makes it pretty easy to listen to the arguments of others, see where they have merit, and nod my head politely when they don't.  I won't be participating so why should I get worked up? 

A saddening thing I've noticed over time is the death of tolerance when it comes to views other than your own. And overreacting at the mildest perceived slight.  Those who profess to be Officially Tolerant are about the worst.  Of late it seems most acute when it comes to race issues.  If you don't agree with the latest version of the evolving orthodoxy, you're cast as a "nazi." Which is particularly ironic given that few if any of those throwing the invective have ever spoken to or interacted with a national socialist.

Frankly I think a lot of it's a lack of empathy and emotional maturity. Further, people seem to be trying to fill the hole in their psyche that used to be filled with religion and trying to use politics intead.  Its a piss-poor substitute.     

*(A long and boring story that I'm tired of re-telling and debating.  Over the years I was heavily involved in partisan politics for both major factions and one minor one, and over time I came to realize it was a bunch of crap.  So I ended up in the zone of conscientious objection when it comes to partisan politics and voting. Realizing that you've wasted thousands of hours of your life on something will do that.)   

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #108 on: June 13, 2020, 07:00:37 AM »
If you take politics (something generally outside of your circle of control) so seriously that you can't be friends with people who disagree with you, then you might need to reassess how much you care about politics.

I just tell people that I don't discuss politics, and things work out just fine.
Amen.

Kris

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #109 on: June 13, 2020, 07:08:15 AM »
If you take politics (something generally outside of your circle of control) so seriously that you can't be friends with people who disagree with you, then you might need to reassess how much you care about politics.

I just tell people that I don't discuss politics, and things work out just fine.

When “politics” turns into excusing the blatant murder of a black man by four policemen, it’s no longer politics, it’s about morality.

GuitarStv

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #110 on: June 13, 2020, 07:11:07 AM »
If you take politics (something generally outside of your circle of control) so seriously that you can't be friends with people who disagree with you, then you might need to reassess how much you care about politics.

I just tell people that I don't discuss politics, and things work out just fine.

When “politics” turns into excusing the blatant murder of a black man by four policemen, it’s no longer politics, it’s about morality.

This is a good point.  Most of the complaints in this thread really aren't about politics.  They're about ignoring folks who act like assholes.

Imma

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #111 on: June 13, 2020, 07:15:08 AM »
If you take politics (something generally outside of your circle of control) so seriously that you can't be friends with people who disagree with you, then you might need to reassess how much you care about politics.

I just tell people that I don't discuss politics, and things work out just fine.
Amen.

In most cases you're right, but of course there are some exceptions. A friend of mine is a decent person and voted for Trump. No problem with that. We have some orthodox Christian relatives who are good people and don't share my views on gay marriage or abortion. That happens and I'm fine with that.

But it depens on how people act on their beliefs. The second my relatives would start to send threatening letters to abortion clinics, or worse, get violent, I'd be done with them. One of my relatives is a racist and treats his black neighbours terribly because of those views. I severed ties with them (over this and many other things).

Civil disagreement is totally fine and I would never server ties with anyone over that - besides those orthodox Christians and Trump supporter I also have socialists and animal rights activists among my friends - but in our current climate people quickly choose violence and mafia tactics to impose their view on everyone else. And that's not the kind of person I want to hang out with. Another exception is neo-nazi's. My family fought nazi's last time they ruled, I do deeply object to nazism and I don't think nazi's can be decent people. 

js82

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #112 on: June 13, 2020, 07:23:59 AM »
Travis, I'm right there with you.

I've struggled for years with this (hence why I created the thread) because I didn't want to be accused of "living in an echo chamber."

But I've learned to draw boundaries. Hard right-wingers get blocked. My FB feed is delightful now without all the garbage. In the past month, I've parted ways with someone I had long considered one of my very closest friends. He has just grown to be intolerable. We all have the right to draw boundaries for our mental health, for our families, and for society at large.

I am always up for conversation/debate re: movies, books, sports, etc., but I will not be "debating" whether or not black lives matter, whether trans folks matter, etc.

I think many white men just cringe at the thought that maybe "we" (white guys) have historically used our power in incredibly cruel and ignorant ways. Maybe we're the "bad guys?" I mean, as I read more about folks like Churchill and Leopold II and Woodrow Wilson (and more, and more), I realize how much history teachers/professors hid from us.

I view it this way:  There are different degrees in closeness when it comes to friends.  The closer the friend, the more important it is that their values align with your own. (Note: I said "values", not politics/party affiliation).  I haven't unfriended anyone - but I'm very selective on when and how to engage with those whose values are vastly different from my own.

I have more distant, situational "friends" with whom I share an activity (softball league, trivia night, etc.) that we both enjoy.  Some of the friends in these groups have political views/values that differ vastly from my own - but it generally doesn't come up during that activity.  It's definitely possible to enjoy spending time with people who have different politics/values, but have certain things in common - but these people are generally not close friends and I don't spend much time with them outside of our shared activity.

On the flip side, when I look at my closest circle of friends we are much more closely aligned in terms of values: the differences are generally much more in terms of perspectives on how to best address a certain issue, than whether a problem actually exists/whether we care about it.   I think this is typical - we tend to gravitate towards those with whom we have sufficient common interests to enjoy spending larger amounts of time together.

Finally, it bears repeating the bolded part above - values and party affiliation are not the same thing.  I have my non-negotiables, but party affiliation most certainly is not one of them.

OtherJen

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #113 on: June 13, 2020, 08:04:16 AM »
If you take politics (something generally outside of your circle of control) so seriously that you can't be friends with people who disagree with you, then you might need to reassess how much you care about politics.

I just tell people that I don't discuss politics, and things work out just fine.

When “politics” turns into excusing the blatant murder of a black man by four policemen, it’s no longer politics, it’s about morality.

This. We’re dealing with this issue with one of our long-time friends right now. We could deal with the political differences, but this is more fundamental.

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #114 on: June 13, 2020, 08:19:27 AM »
If you take politics (something generally outside of your circle of control) so seriously that you can't be friends with people who disagree with you, then you might need to reassess how much you care about politics.

I just tell people that I don't discuss politics, and things work out just fine.

When “politics” turns into excusing the blatant murder of a black man by four policemen, it’s no longer politics, it’s about morality.

This. We’re dealing with this issue with one of our long-time friends right now. We could deal with the political differences, but this is more fundamental.

Really? So is this a case where someone thinks that police murder is acceptable, or is it more along the lines of them not drawing the same conclusions of cause and effect as you do?

OtherJen

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #115 on: June 13, 2020, 08:28:19 AM »
If you take politics (something generally outside of your circle of control) so seriously that you can't be friends with people who disagree with you, then you might need to reassess how much you care about politics.

I just tell people that I don't discuss politics, and things work out just fine.

When “politics” turns into excusing the blatant murder of a black man by four policemen, it’s no longer politics, it’s about morality.

This. We’re dealing with this issue with one of our long-time friends right now. We could deal with the political differences, but this is more fundamental.

Really? So is this a case where someone thinks that police murder is acceptable, or is it more along the lines of them not drawing the same conclusions of cause and effect as you do?

Do you mean to be hostile and belittling?

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #116 on: June 13, 2020, 08:41:19 AM »
If you take politics (something generally outside of your circle of control) so seriously that you can't be friends with people who disagree with you, then you might need to reassess how much you care about politics.

I just tell people that I don't discuss politics, and things work out just fine.

When “politics” turns into excusing the blatant murder of a black man by four policemen, it’s no longer politics, it’s about morality.

This. We’re dealing with this issue with one of our long-time friends right now. We could deal with the political differences, but this is more fundamental.

Really? So is this a case where someone thinks that police murder is acceptable, or is it more along the lines of them not drawing the same conclusions of cause and effect as you do?

Do you mean to be hostile and belittling?

Absolutely not. And I’m sorry if you took it that way.

There is this tendency that I’ve seen of late of people taking the worst possible interpretation of motivations when someone disagrees with them or asks an uncomfortable question.  It’s exacerbated by being online. You can’t see facial expressions, or tone.

To restate the question: are you giving up a friendship over what you think are the persons views on murder or race?  Are your perceptions reflective of  their actual views? Or is it because you disagree on the cause and effect?

It’s quite possible to be horrified by a police murder but not draw the same conclusions as it being a direct result of race or other cause.



Kris

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #117 on: June 13, 2020, 08:48:01 AM »
If you take politics (something generally outside of your circle of control) so seriously that you can't be friends with people who disagree with you, then you might need to reassess how much you care about politics.

I just tell people that I don't discuss politics, and things work out just fine.

When “politics” turns into excusing the blatant murder of a black man by four policemen, it’s no longer politics, it’s about morality.

This. We’re dealing with this issue with one of our long-time friends right now. We could deal with the political differences, but this is more fundamental.

Really? So is this a case where someone thinks that police murder is acceptable, or is it more along the lines of them not drawing the same conclusions of cause and effect as you do?

Do you mean to be hostile and belittling?

Absolutely not. And I’m sorry if you took it that way.

There is this tendency that I’ve seen of late of people taking the worst possible interpretation of motivations when someone disagrees with them or asks an uncomfortable question.  It’s exacerbated by being online. You can’t see facial expressions, or tone.

To restate the question: are you giving up a friendship over what you think are the persons views on murder or race?  Are your perceptions reflective of  their actual views? Or is it because you disagree on the cause and effect?

It’s quite possible to be horrified by a police murder but not draw the same conclusions as it being a direct result of race or other cause.

In which case, it is a question of police brutality. Which is still a moral issue.

Travis

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #118 on: June 13, 2020, 09:01:45 AM »
If you take politics (something generally outside of your circle of control) so seriously that you can't be friends with people who disagree with you, then you might need to reassess how much you care about politics.

I just tell people that I don't discuss politics, and things work out just fine.

When “politics” turns into excusing the blatant murder of a black man by four policemen, it’s no longer politics, it’s about morality.

This. We’re dealing with this issue with one of our long-time friends right now. We could deal with the political differences, but this is more fundamental.

Really? So is this a case where someone thinks that police murder is acceptable, or is it more along the lines of them not drawing the same conclusions of cause and effect as you do?

Boris, that's the exact tangent some of my friends have been taking. I have a serious problem right now with how blatantly and violently the police have been violating the Constitutional rights of these protesters. Being an active duty soldier, the idea that there are people out there who are demanding that my brothers and sisters show up and gun them all down sickens me.  By pointing that out, I'm told I must love cop killers and police lives don't matter. 

That's a pretty big line I'm not willing to budge on.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #119 on: June 13, 2020, 09:20:24 AM »
I keep thinking back to a phrase I heard--"It's dangerous to have a narrow range of emotions".  Social media seems to have aggravated(and capitalized on) this.  Most people would not be as vitriolic in public as they are willing to online, probably because the co-operative nature of human existence is much more overt in person than it is over social media.

The people at the extremes are mostly excluded from this; it's unlikely to have productive conversation with extremists on either side and they don't warrant the energy expenditure.

But for everyone else, it's necessary to have dialogue.  Politics is usually about compromise, so negotiation will have to occur.  As Naval Ravikant said: "if all your beliefs are the same as your neighbors and friends, you're not a clear thinker.  Your beliefs are socialized; they're taken from other people."

So you do need to make an effort to stay friends with people you disagree with, within reason, and also to know that the greater political cause has limited relevance to your day-to-day life.  Both of these will be difficult.  Don't hurry to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Laserjet3051

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #120 on: June 13, 2020, 09:31:57 AM »
"Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?"

Yes.......I can and do. My positions on many issues are far from mainstream/middle of the road, however I respect people I disagree with and this includes family as as well as friends. As an ardent atheist, decades ago I married a devout evangelical Christian, yet we have remained married all these years and as a result, we both have had to learn to respect profound philospohical differences between each other. This type of day to day "practice" in respecting others despite fundamental differences has cultivated my respect for others with all kinds of differences, including political. We are also an interracial family and the current race riots have afforded us additional tests of compassion, empathy and respect. Just yesterday we walked right through a BLM riot downtown and were engaged in discussion with passers by. We negotiated the political melee successfully. In the end, it is important to "agree to disagree." However, so many people I know have the most profound enmity for others who do not belong to their political "tribe." We see it here on MMM and everywhere in life. Hate for people of different persuasions, really has no place in my life, whether persuasion refers to race, religion, politics, philosophy or otherwise.   
« Last Edit: June 13, 2020, 10:14:02 AM by Laserjet3051 »

OtherJen

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #121 on: June 13, 2020, 10:08:38 AM »
If you take politics (something generally outside of your circle of control) so seriously that you can't be friends with people who disagree with you, then you might need to reassess how much you care about politics.

I just tell people that I don't discuss politics, and things work out just fine.

When “politics” turns into excusing the blatant murder of a black man by four policemen, it’s no longer politics, it’s about morality.

This. We’re dealing with this issue with one of our long-time friends right now. We could deal with the political differences, but this is more fundamental.

Really? So is this a case where someone thinks that police murder is acceptable, or is it more along the lines of them not drawing the same conclusions of cause and effect as you do?

Do you mean to be hostile and belittling?

Absolutely not. And I’m sorry if you took it that way.

There is this tendency that I’ve seen of late of people taking the worst possible interpretation of motivations when someone disagrees with them or asks an uncomfortable question.  It’s exacerbated by being online. You can’t see facial expressions, or tone.

To restate the question: are you giving up a friendship over what you think are the persons views on murder or race?  Are your perceptions reflective of  their actual views? Or is it because you disagree on the cause and effect?

It’s quite possible to be horrified by a police murder but not draw the same conclusions as it being a direct result of race or other cause.

It’s husband’s friend, someone he’s known more than half his life and someone who has always been welcome in our home. I’ve known this person for nearly 20 years. Husband is probably the most tolerant person I know when it comes to the viewpoints of what his loved ones believe. I wasn’t part of last week’s conversation so I don’t know what exactly made husband get up and leave before he said something he couldn’t take back, but I know that the friend in question claims that the cops were just doing their job because racism doesn’t exist, and therefore cops can’t ever be racist, except that black people are all racist against white people and Obama was the most racist president ever. Whatever was said after all of that pushed Husband over the edge.

This friend has been sliding deeper and deeper into overt racism and conspiracy theory mode over the last 3 years. Husband may have finally hit his breaking point. He’s been agonizing over how to handle this because every get-together turns into a nasty political debate fueled by Fox News and Breitbart (I’ve been witness to several of friend’s rants, some directed at me in my house over dinners that I’ve cooked). He really has only two options: continue with boundaries about what he’s willing to discuss, or end the friendship. He’s leaning toward the former but struggling with what that would look like in practice.

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #122 on: June 13, 2020, 12:34:13 PM »
I've been interested (and gratified) to be possibly watching in real-time things turn from "politics" into just morality, humanity, basic decency that is less questioned.  It used to be (and certainly still is, in varying levels across the country) considered a political topic to talk about systemic racism and police brutality against black people.  Now, less so at least (particularly?) in my circles. 

One of my closest friends, my roommate from college, and I had been growing more distant over recent years.  We have a lot less in common than we used to (she has young kids, I don't, she is not frugal and is motivated by money and status, I'm not, etc.) and she's much more conservative than me.  Like I used to wonder if she voted for Trump. I was absolutely shocked to see her post an explainer about "defund the police" on an even more conservative mutual friend's post asking if defund the police was actually a real thing.  The first friend wasn't exactly out advocating and championing, but at least implied that it was an idea that was worth getting to know.  WOW!

It feels like I'm witnessing history and a real inflection point.  Like, whether or not Jews were inferior or crooked or whatever the reputation was used to be a subject that people thought was worthy of "hearing all sides of the issue" and on which "there should be open debate" and that some would not want to get involved in because "politics"!  Now, we know it's not politics.  It's just not ok period.  Not open for good faith discussion.  That change in our morality happened*, and I think we're witnessing a similar one here, and 20 or 60 years from now, people will be disgusted that we dismissed some things with "I don't talk about politics".  It's fascinating to watch the change in real time.

*Not to say that this doesn't still happen at all, because there are always crazies out there genuinely butt hurt that they can't have open discussion about how evil Jews are! But it's just clearly a distinct change at the societal level.

Imma

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #123 on: June 13, 2020, 01:14:29 PM »
@sui generis without wanting to turn this into a political thing, what I've noticed is that what you describe is certainly true around racism based on skin colour, but that racism based on religion (i.e. Muslims and Jews in my country) is not viewed in a similar way. Religion is seen as a choice and a pretty backwards choice too. So if you choose to belong to this group, you have to face the consequences. There has been lots of media attention in my country around violence towards black people - which is totally justified of course - but violence against Jews is increasing as well and no one cares much about that. Whether it's ok to attack Jews still something up for debate - arguments include the Jewish world conspiracy who apparantly are behind Covid too, and Israel's foreign policy.

sui generis

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #124 on: June 13, 2020, 01:45:27 PM »
@sui generis without wanting to turn this into a political thing, what I've noticed is that what you describe is certainly true around racism based on skin colour, but that racism based on religion (i.e. Muslims and Jews in my country) is not viewed in a similar way. Religion is seen as a choice and a pretty backwards choice too. So if you choose to belong to this group, you have to face the consequences. There has been lots of media attention in my country around violence towards black people - which is totally justified of course - but violence against Jews is increasing as well and no one cares much about that. Whether it's ok to attack Jews still something up for debate - arguments include the Jewish world conspiracy who apparantly are behind Covid too, and Israel's foreign policy.

Yes, I shouldn't attempt to speak broadly about anything at any time and my perspective is really only applicable to my own country and even then my perspective and experience is limited.  So I have no doubt there are places where my examples just don't apply. 

It's interesting, though, to think of Europeans considering religion as a choice now.  I'm currently watching a TV series called "A French Village" and it reminded me of how clear it was in WWII that being a Jew wasn't a choice or about what religion you actually practiced, but was about race.  And I still think where there is anti-semitism, it is so much more about what people would characterize as racial or genetic aspects rather than, like, the rituals or tenets of the belief system?  I feel like the people who are anti-semites would still hate Jews, even if they all started *practicing* Christianity or Islam or no religion at all.  I could be wrong.

Nevertheless, there are many other examples of things that we simply don't debate nowadays, whether for factual or moral reasons.  I can just imagine people a few hundred years ago sighing and saying, "I don't like to talk politics!" when the topic of the flat vs. round earth came up.  And to be sure, there is STILL a Flat Earth Society!  But, it's not something that people are willing to have a "good faith debate" on.  Someday (and increasingly so in the last decade, though much less swift than the recent change in poll numbers on BLM), I think it will be the same for climate change. 

Imma

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #125 on: June 13, 2020, 02:17:16 PM »
The shift about climate change seems to have mostly happened in my country (the Netherlands). Our climate has changed so much in such a short period of time - I've seen it happen and I'm 30 - that it could no longer be denied. Sure, some people still discuss it but it's accepted by 80% of the people.

I think one major difference between my country and yours is that atheism is the norm here now. Most people believe in 'nothing' or 'something' but not in organised religion. So we think of all religions as niche clubs. There's actually a lot less knowledge about religion than I'd expect there to be in the US. If you identify as Christian (which I do) people associate that with American rightwing evangelicals because that's the only type of church they know. So I'm not super open about it to strangers. Catholic churches are perceived as quaint and oldfashioned, something that reminds them of their grandparents.

Of course Jews who are attacked are ethnically profiled by their attackers and I doubt their attackers asked if they were actually practicing Jews or just when culturally Jewish. But because Jews are considered 'bad guys' there's little sympathy for them when they get attacked. I actually had a (civil) discussion about this with a BLM-activist acquintance, who is also a firm believer in the Jewish world domination conspiracy. This was long before the current events and it was civil, but in the end we agreed to disagree.

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #126 on: June 13, 2020, 02:17:25 PM »
Just found this thread and want to PTF, so I can read the discussion later. In my mind, I am substituting "family" for "friends", because several members of my family voted for and still believe in the Orange One. It makes me so sick to my stomach, I can hardly speak to them, which breaks my heart. On a happier note, one of my brothers has privately told me he is sorry for his vote in the last election, and will not be compounding the mistake come November. I am taking comfort in that.

HBFIRE

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #127 on: June 13, 2020, 02:32:07 PM »
Totally depends.  Two authentic intellectuals can be friends regardless of differences in opinions as they are able to have real conversations on tough topics (i.e. the intellectual dark web).  The problem is, this is a rare quality.  I like to seek out these types of friends even if we don't see eye to eye on every topic.  I'd much rather have a friend I disagree with but is able to have deep conversations than one that provides an echo chamber.  Challenging my positions is healthy and is how growth happens.  Developing a keen critical mind is something I work on daily.  Recognizing our own biases is incredibly challenging, having a friend to help us with this is immensely valuable.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2020, 02:36:15 PM by HBFIRE »

js82

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #128 on: June 13, 2020, 02:46:57 PM »
Totally depends.  Two authentic intellectuals can be friends regardless of differences in opinions as they are able to have real conversations on tough topics (i.e. the intellectual dark web).  The problem is, this is a rare quality.  I like to seek out these types of friends even if we don't see eye to eye on every topic.  I'd much rather have a friend I disagree with but is able to have deep conversations than one that provides an echo chamber.  Challenging my positions is healthy and is how growth happens.

This is a very good point.  There is a fundamental difference between serious, good-faith debate on the best way to address an issue, and bombarding each other with partisan talking points.

The starting point for that sort of discussion is for everyone involved to have sufficient intellectual maturity to be able to separate fact from fiction(and from opinion), such that when the discussion happens, everyone is working from the same set of facts, and the discussion is around the broader implications of those facts rather than what the facts themselves are.

I also think separating logic from emotion when debating is something that some personality types find easier than others.

Shane

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #129 on: June 13, 2020, 03:47:18 PM »
As someone already mentioned above, the answer to OP's question partly depends on your definition of the word "friend." A long time ago, an old man who was on his deathbed at the time told me, "If you're lucky, in your lifetime, you'll make one good friend." By that definition of "friend," I think my answer to OP's question would likely be, "No." OTOH, I have >500 FB "friends," and I know people IRL who regularly talk about having dozens, or even hundreds of friends. I think, by that looser definition, my answer to OP's question would be, "Yes."

Right now, we have a next door neighbor who has totally bought in to the whole Trump narrative. I wouldn't say he is my "friend," but we're neighbors, and we regularly talk on the sidewalk in front of our houses and, also, electronically by text message and email, mostly about current political issues. I definitely want to remain on good terms with our neighbor. Sometimes, he messages me and asks us to hold a package that's been delivered to his front porch for him until he gets home, and he does the same for us sometimes. Our neighbor lives alone, and is not a young man, so I've offered to him that if he ever needs help to let me know. I would gladly walk his dog for him if he ever got sick and couldn't do it himself. I've given him rides to go pick up his car from the shop when it was being worked on, and he would do the same for me. Our neighbor is extremely religious. I am not, at all. His whole worldview seems to be mostly motivated by a few core issues: abortion, gun rights, and prayer in schools, things I care little about. When I skim some of the articles our neighbor sends me and read his comments on them, I think of it almost like I'm an anthropologist, looking from the outside at a culture that is very, very different from my own. I mostly disagree with almost everything my neighbor says about politics but, yet, somehow, I find it hard to look away and just ignore him and his ideas.

I feel the same about FB friends who, recently, have been regularly posting things along the lines of #bluelivesmatter. I completely disagree with them but, somehow, it's never occurred to me that I would be better off blocking them on social media. I feel like keeping those lines of communication open allows me a glimpse into another culture of people who are very different from me but, yet, in the past, sometimes the distant past, we have shared something. Maybe we played sports together or went to school together or worked together.

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #130 on: June 13, 2020, 05:35:13 PM »

It’s husband’s friend, someone he’s known more than half his life and someone who has always been welcome in our home. I’ve known this person for nearly 20 years. Husband is probably the most tolerant person I know when it comes to the viewpoints of what his loved ones believe. I wasn’t part of last week’s conversation so I don’t know what exactly made husband get up and leave before he said something he couldn’t take back, but I know that the friend in question claims that the cops were just doing their job because racism doesn’t exist, and therefore cops can’t ever be racist, except that black people are all racist against white people and Obama was the most racist president ever. Whatever was said after all of that pushed Husband over the edge.

This friend has been sliding deeper and deeper into overt racism and conspiracy theory mode over the last 3 years. Husband may have finally hit his breaking point. He’s been agonizing over how to handle this because every get-together turns into a nasty political debate fueled by Fox News and Breitbart (I’ve been witness to several of friend’s rants, some directed at me in my house over dinners that I’ve cooked). He really has only two options: continue with boundaries about what he’s willing to discuss, or end the friendship. He’s leaning toward the former but struggling with what that would look like in practice.

Im sorry you’re going through this.

In candor, this looks to me more like a “not willing to behave in a polite manner” kind of issue to me. If someone is invited to my home, I expect them to behave in at least as polite a manner as they would with any stranger on the street. I’m not going to walk up to a stranger and berate them.  I expect guests to respect my wife, as they should expect me to with someone they cared about.  And as you would expect your friends and acquaintances  to respect your husband. So really this doesn’t sound to me so much as a differing perspective issue as a behavioral one. Only you and your husband can decide if that’s reconcilable. It might not be. Some level of respect is necessary for any ongoing friendship or relationship.

Unfortunately we seem to live in times where people just aren’t willing to let it go and agree to politely disagree.  Where they end up viewing ideology as more important than good behavior and relationships. It’s a crying shame. Again I’m sorry that you’re having to go through this with someone you and you husband care about.   


Pigeon

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #131 on: June 13, 2020, 10:15:23 PM »
I'm older than the majority of people here. If you had asked me this years ago I would have said certainly. Not so much anymore. I don't see how it is possible to support Trump and be a decent human being. It just isn't. I'm done having anything other than the most superficial contact with even my own sister.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #132 on: June 13, 2020, 10:46:13 PM »
I don't see how it is possible to support Trump and be a decent human being. It just isn't. I'm done having anything other than the most superficial contact with even my own sister.
I don't see how it's possible to be a decent human being and cut off contact with close family.

Note: in all these stories of conservatives and progressives disagreeing, it's always the progressive who cuts off contact. You're not treating it as a political party, then, but a cult. That's not healthy, and it's also a really, really shitty way to effect progressive change. Social change comes from engaging with people, not cutting them off.

[MOD NOTE: This appears to be a misrepresentation, which is what got the poster upset below.  It is not a simple difference of opinion to believe that some people don't deserve basic human rights.]
« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 10:29:42 AM by FrugalToque »

Pigeon

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #133 on: June 13, 2020, 10:56:42 PM »
Actually, it's the conservative sister who has flounced from the family. She's expecting we will make overtures to her but that's not going to happen again. If you defend racism, misogyny, and discrimination of LBBTQ people, yeah, you aren't a decent person.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #134 on: June 14, 2020, 12:00:38 AM »
I haven't had any progressive friends that I've cut off, but I have had a friend that I simply hold my tongue around.  That's not great either.  Seems to me that regardless of which side you're on, you should always leave the door open to being wrong, and to hearing the other side.  It's not good to have people hold their tongue around you.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #135 on: June 14, 2020, 12:08:45 AM »
Seems to me that regardless of which side you're on, you should always leave the door open to being wrong, and to hearing the other side.  It's not good to have people hold their tongue around you.
It may be necessary if they wish to keep their employment.

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-news-media-is-destroying-itself

Travis

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #136 on: June 14, 2020, 12:16:37 AM »
I don't see how it is possible to support Trump and be a decent human being. It just isn't. I'm done having anything other than the most superficial contact with even my own sister.
I don't see how it's possible to be a decent human being and cut off contact with close family.

Note: in all these stories of conservatives and progressives disagreeing, it's always the progressive who cuts off contact. You're not treating it as a political party, then, but a cult. That's not healthy, and it's also a really, really shitty way to effect progressive change. Social change comes from engaging with people, not cutting them off.

They don't cut off contact because they don't think they're doing anything wrong. They're classifying their pronouncements that racial profiling doesn't exist and that all liberals should be jailed or shot as "a difference of opinion." She's always been super opinionated and digs in her heels very easily.  The area she lives in is openly racist with the small black population receiving numerous death threats over the last couple weeks, but she insists that our black friends are blowing everything out of proportion.

But apparently I'm supposed to keep this friendship going because someday she might change her mind...

Wrenchturner

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #137 on: June 14, 2020, 01:21:09 AM »
Seems to me that regardless of which side you're on, you should always leave the door open to being wrong, and to hearing the other side.  It's not good to have people hold their tongue around you.
It may be necessary if they wish to keep their employment.

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-news-media-is-destroying-itself

Some jobs aren't worth keeping, although I know that's easier to state than to act out.

Dancin'Dog

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #138 on: June 14, 2020, 05:34:16 AM »
I don't see how it is possible to support Trump and be a decent human being. It just isn't. I'm done having anything other than the most superficial contact with even my own sister.
I don't see how it's possible to be a decent human being and cut off contact with close family.

Note: in all these stories of conservatives and progressives disagreeing, it's always the progressive who cuts off contact. You're not treating it as a political party, then, but a cult. That's not healthy, and it's also a really, really shitty way to effect progressive change. Social change comes from engaging with people, not cutting them off.


Progressives are decent people that don't enjoy associating with shitty people. Conservatives are shitty people that enjoy having decent people around to shit on.
[MOD NOTE: Let's not make generalizations like this.  Thank you]
« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 10:28:39 AM by FrugalToque »

skp

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #139 on: June 14, 2020, 06:01:07 AM »
After reading this thread and being on this site for a while Hate has no home here signs outside homes and coexist bumper stickers make me laugh.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #140 on: June 14, 2020, 06:01:27 AM »
Note: in all these stories of conservatives and progressives disagreeing, it's always the progressive who cuts off contact. You're not treating it as a political party, then, but a cult. That's not healthy, and it's also a really, really shitty way to effect progressive change. Social change comes from engaging with people, not cutting them off.


Progressives are decent people that don't enjoy associating with shitty people.  Conservatives are shitty people that enjoy having decent people around to shit on.

Oh ho!

Personally, I’m fairly progressive for a military officer. Conversely, and I’m pretty conservative for being a raging gaywad. I exist in the in between, and everyone behaves badly.

Shane

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #141 on: June 14, 2020, 06:24:52 AM »
I don't see how it is possible to support Trump and be a decent human being. It just isn't. I'm done having anything other than the most superficial contact with even my own sister.
I don't see how it's possible to be a decent human being and cut off contact with close family.

Note: in all these stories of conservatives and progressives disagreeing, it's always the progressive who cuts off contact. You're not treating it as a political party, then, but a cult. That's not healthy, and it's also a really, really shitty way to effect progressive change. Social change comes from engaging with people, not cutting them off.

They don't cut off contact because they don't think they're doing anything wrong. They're classifying their pronouncements that racial profiling doesn't exist and that all liberals should be jailed or shot as "a difference of opinion." She's always been super opinionated and digs in her heels very easily.  The area she lives in is openly racist with the small black population receiving numerous death threats over the last couple weeks, but she insists that our black friends are blowing everything out of proportion.

But apparently I'm supposed to keep this friendship going because someday she might change her mind...

Our Right-wing neighbor is constantly sending me emails and texts, some written by him and others just copied and pasted, which casually say things like, "I HATE liberals, now, more than ever!," "Nancy Pelosi should crawl under a rock and die." "It would be great if Meghan McCain got the Corona and died." etc. Since our neighbor has told me he considers me a liberal, I've asked him why he keeps talking with me if he hates me so much. To which he said, "Oh, no, I don't hate any individual personally. I just hate liberals in general." I pointed out to him that he regularly singles out individuals for hatred and gave him examples: "Meghan McCain, Whoopi Goldberg, Nancy Pelosi, Elizabeth Warren." (interestingly, it's usually women he singles out for hate). To which he said, "Oh, I didn't really mean that I want them to actually die. I just hate liberals so much!" He also regularly espouses hate for "Godless atheists," "communists," and anyone who is willing to tolerate not locking women who get abortions up. Then he'll change the subject and mention that he just made some chili or soup or bread and ask if we want to try some...

OTOH, I know "liberals" who believe strongly that people on the Right, who hold beliefs they consider to be reprehensible, should be arrested and put into "re-education camps," where they would stay, until they agreed with all the Left-wing talking points. The same liberals believe strongly the US should enact hate speech laws that would make it illegal to misgender someone or to say other mean or racist things to people. One of them's FB profile shows him wearing a t-shirt that says, "Make Racists Afraid Again."
« Last Edit: June 14, 2020, 06:29:20 AM by Shane »

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #142 on: June 14, 2020, 06:39:07 AM »
I don't see how it is possible to support Trump and be a decent human being. It just isn't. I'm done having anything other than the most superficial contact with even my own sister.
I don't see how it's possible to be a decent human being and cut off contact with close family.

Note: in all these stories of conservatives and progressives disagreeing, it's always the progressive who cuts off contact. You're not treating it as a political party, then, but a cult. That's not healthy, and it's also a really, really shitty way to effect progressive change. Social change comes from engaging with people, not cutting them off.


Progressives are decent people that don't enjoy associating with shitty people.  Conservatives are shitty people that enjoy having decent people around to shit on.

My, my. You're painting with a very broad brush indeed. Why don't you take the word "Conservatives" out of your remark and substitute it with "Women" or "Hispanics" or "Jews" and see how that sounds?

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #143 on: June 14, 2020, 06:44:21 AM »
After reading this thread and being on this site for a while Hate has no home here signs outside homes and coexist bumper stickers make me laugh.

Yeah, it is laughable, isn't it?  There's nothing quite like the intolerance of the Officially Tolerant.

Dancin'Dog

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #144 on: June 14, 2020, 07:10:28 AM »
I don't see how it is possible to support Trump and be a decent human being. It just isn't. I'm done having anything other than the most superficial contact with even my own sister.
I don't see how it's possible to be a decent human being and cut off contact with close family.

Note: in all these stories of conservatives and progressives disagreeing, it's always the progressive who cuts off contact. You're not treating it as a political party, then, but a cult. That's not healthy, and it's also a really, really shitty way to effect progressive change. Social change comes from engaging with people, not cutting them off.


Progressives are decent people that don't enjoy associating with shitty people.  Conservatives are shitty people that enjoy having decent people around to shit on.

My, my. You're painting with a very broad brush indeed. Why don't you take the word "Conservatives" out of your remark and substitute it with "Women" or "Hispanics" or "Jews" and see how that sounds?




That would be calling Women, Hispanics, or Jews shitty people.  That would be wrong. 




DadJokes

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #145 on: June 14, 2020, 07:36:47 AM »
Seems to me that regardless of which side you're on, you should always leave the door open to being wrong, and to hearing the other side.  It's not good to have people hold their tongue around you.
It may be necessary if they wish to keep their employment.

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-news-media-is-destroying-itself

People say they want to "have a conversation" about racism, but they don't. They just want to shout down anyone who doesn't toe the line. Ostracizing this journalist for asking that question doesn't bring more people to their side. As a result, they are hurting the cause instead of helping it.

OtherJen

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #146 on: June 14, 2020, 08:24:02 AM »
I don't see how it is possible to support Trump and be a decent human being. It just isn't. I'm done having anything other than the most superficial contact with even my own sister.
I don't see how it's possible to be a decent human being and cut off contact with close family.

Note: in all these stories of conservatives and progressives disagreeing, it's always the progressive who cuts off contact. You're not treating it as a political party, then, but a cult. That's not healthy, and it's also a really, really shitty way to effect progressive change. Social change comes from engaging with people, not cutting them off.

You've never had a toxic friend or family member, then. Lucky you. One of my parents cut off contact with a physically and emotionally abusive sibling. I had to cut off contact with a formerly good friend after that person escalated to stalking behavior against me.

I haven't cut off people for differing political or religious beliefs. I'd lose most of my extended family if I did. If their beliefs cause them to behave like disrespectful jerks toward me, yeah, I'm going to minimize contact. I don't cut all contact until my safety is threatened.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2020, 09:01:46 AM by OtherJen »

sui generis

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #147 on: June 14, 2020, 08:54:09 AM »
I don't see how it is possible to support Trump and be a decent human being. It just isn't. I'm done having anything other than the most superficial contact with even my own sister.
I don't see how it's possible to be a decent human being and cut off contact with close family.

Note: in all these stories of conservatives and progressives disagreeing, it's always the progressive who cuts off contact. You're not treating it as a political party, then, but a cult. That's not healthy, and it's also a really, really shitty way to effect progressive change. Social change comes from engaging with people, not cutting them off.

They don't cut off contact because they don't think they're doing anything wrong. They're classifying their pronouncements that racial profiling doesn't exist and that all liberals should be jailed or shot as "a difference of opinion." She's always been super opinionated and digs in her heels very easily.  The area she lives in is openly racist with the small black population receiving numerous death threats over the last couple weeks, but she insists that our black friends are blowing everything out of proportion.

But apparently I'm supposed to keep this friendship going because someday she might change her mind...

Our Right-wing neighbor is constantly sending me emails and texts, some written by him and others just copied and pasted, which casually say things like, "I HATE liberals, now, more than ever!," "Nancy Pelosi should crawl under a rock and die." "It would be great if Meghan McCain got the Corona and died." etc. Since our neighbor has told me he considers me a liberal, I've asked him why he keeps talking with me if he hates me so much. To which he said, "Oh, no, I don't hate any individual personally. I just hate liberals in general." I pointed out to him that he regularly singles out individuals for hatred and gave him examples: "Meghan McCain, Whoopi Goldberg, Nancy Pelosi, Elizabeth Warren." (interestingly, it's usually women he singles out for hate). To which he said, "Oh, I didn't really mean that I want them to actually die. I just hate liberals so much!" He also regularly espouses hate for "Godless atheists," "communists," and anyone who is willing to tolerate not locking women who get abortions up. Then he'll change the subject and mention that he just made some chili or soup or bread and ask if we want to try some...

OTOH, I know "liberals" who believe strongly that people on the Right, who hold beliefs they consider to be reprehensible, should be arrested and put into "re-education camps," where they would stay, until they agreed with all the Left-wing talking points. The same liberals believe strongly the US should enact hate speech laws that would make it illegal to misgender someone or to say other mean or racist things to people. One of them's FB profile shows him wearing a t-shirt that says, "Make Racists Afraid Again."

Again? When were they ever afraid before?

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #148 on: June 14, 2020, 09:01:09 AM »
Seems to me that regardless of which side you're on, you should always leave the door open to being wrong, and to hearing the other side.  It's not good to have people hold their tongue around you.
It may be necessary if they wish to keep their employment.

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-news-media-is-destroying-itself

People say they want to "have a conversation" about racism, but they don't. They just want to shout down anyone who doesn't toe the line. Ostracizing this journalist for asking that question doesn't bring more people to their side. As a result, they are hurting the cause instead of helping it.

Yeah, they really are. But it really isn’t about racism, is it? Its about power.

bacchi

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #149 on: June 14, 2020, 09:33:48 AM »
Seems to me that regardless of which side you're on, you should always leave the door open to being wrong, and to hearing the other side.  It's not good to have people hold their tongue around you.
It may be necessary if they wish to keep their employment.

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-news-media-is-destroying-itself

People say they want to "have a conversation" about racism, but they don't. They just want to shout down anyone who doesn't toe the line. Ostracizing this journalist for asking that question doesn't bring more people to their side. As a result, they are hurting the cause instead of helping it.

Yeah, they really are. But it really isn’t about racism, is it? Its about power.

It's a virtual mob. In this case, because of the youthful nature of the internet, it's a "liberal" mob of trendsters. It's not much different from past mobs made up of conformist conservatives. Mobs are dangerous because one misstep can make the mob turn against you, even if you're on the same side.

Mob is a funny word.