Author Topic: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?  (Read 43797 times)

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #450 on: June 21, 2020, 12:21:31 AM »
I seriously do believe that the world would be better off with more abortions, because right now not every mother who wants an abortion can get one, and 99% of the time I would trust the mother's judgment on whether she wants to bring a child to term. We need to decrease that friction and make the process of getting an abortion as easy as possible. I don't think we should be encouraging mothers who otherwise wouldn't want an abortion to get one - but I really doubt that any sort of non-coercive encouragement would do this, anyway.

Sure, we'd also be better off if birth control and the morning after pill and contraception were readily available, free, and held no stigma. We could eliminate the need for abortions that way. But that's never going to happen due to people's squeamishness about sex and the limited discipline that many people have in using contraception.

Plina

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #451 on: June 21, 2020, 01:58:32 AM »
It seems that anti abortion advocates forgets the child in the equation. What happens with a child that is not wanted? I would guess it would cause resentment with many of the mothers towards the child.

Say that you are a 35 year old woman with a birth control failure that results in a pregnancy. You don’t want to have children so abortion is your only resonable option if it is not illegal in your country. In theory you could give up the child for adoption but I would guess the  condemnation from society if you told that you don’t want to have the child would be pretty harsh so to pull it through you would need to dissappear during the pregnancy or move. Your choice to give the baby up for adoption would go against all societal expectations of women. Or you could have the child that you don’t want. It would take a pretty amazing person to do it without feeling resentment towards the kid during the next 19 years.

I think all woman should be able to choose for themselves but I also think it is important with sex education and availability of birth control. Here birth control is free up to 21 years old. I remember that we had open discussions among friends about different options 20 years ago when I was in high school.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #452 on: June 21, 2020, 03:33:33 AM »
Now, looking at this otherwise irrelevant abortion discussion, consider: by engaging in discussions with people you disagree with, you have learned something - if only how to better argue for what you believe.

Associating only with those you agree with leads to being in a cult waiting for the end of the world coming at some precise date. Less extremely, it leads to political polarisation and jamming up the machinery of government as nobody will ever compromise with anyone because they are just so damned sure they're right.

In the army, one of the things we did was, if two guys couldn't get along on recruit course, they were put in adjacent bunks, and told, "Smith and Jones, you are now best mates - if you fuck up, Smith, then Jones will be punished, and vice versa - we suggest you work together and neither of you gets punished, but that's up to you." Interestingly, almost all of those pairings ended up being able to work productively together.

More people need an experience like that, it stops you being intellectually lazy and becoming stupid.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #453 on: June 21, 2020, 04:08:02 AM »
Now, looking at this otherwise irrelevant abortion discussion, consider: by engaging in discussions with people you disagree with, you have learned something - if only how to better argue for what you believe.

Associating only with those you agree with leads to being in a cult waiting for the end of the world coming at some precise date. Less extremely, it leads to political polarisation and jamming up the machinery of government as nobody will ever compromise with anyone because they are just so damned sure they're right.

In the army, one of the things we did was, if two guys couldn't get along on recruit course, they were put in adjacent bunks, and told, "Smith and Jones, you are now best mates - if you fuck up, Smith, then Jones will be punished, and vice versa - we suggest you work together and neither of you gets punished, but that's up to you." Interestingly, almost all of those pairings ended up being able to work productively together.

More people need an experience like that, it stops you being intellectually lazy and becoming stupid.

I agree with this and it's why I like these forums. For the most part, there is a healthy divergence of opinions.

It's also why I'm really leery of sub-forums like the Anti-Mustachian forum and other forums where group-think (about clown cars, riding bikes, blah blah blah) can readily go from a helpful sharing of ideas to a haven for proselytising.

When I was younger I used to attend political clubs and events and I couldn't understand why people kept on trying to find consensus and discuss commonalities. It's much better to discuss points of disagreement. You're not going to grow or learn by bonding with people who think exactly like you.

Kris

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #454 on: June 21, 2020, 06:18:37 AM »
I think the debate get unnecessarily hung up on late term abortions when they are vanishingly rare. Women who don’t want to be pregnant and can get an abortion don’t hang around forever to get one if they have a choice. Pregnancy sucks, after all. The instances where there are late abortions are when there are grave medical issues that come up that mean that either survival isn’t likely or the quality of life would be so bad that the choice is made that the better thing to do is terminate.

Yes, that was by design. A deliberate misdirection by the right.

Kris

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #455 on: June 21, 2020, 06:22:41 AM »
Until a couple of years ago, I always thought of myself as being pro-abortion. After some recent conversations with an adamantly anti-abortion friend, I thought about it and realized that, like my friend, I am also against killing babies. I mean, aside from Bloop Bloop, and I'm pretty sure he's not being totally serious, do any of us really think the world would be a better place if only we could get more women to have abortions? Of course not, right? My pro-life friend and I agreed on just about everything: that minimizing the number of abortions would be a good thing; that providing people with free birth control and education on how to use it would be a good way to help minimize the number of babies killed; the only thing we didn't agree on was whether or not it made sense to criminalize abortion for healthcare providers and/or patients. I argued that the criminalization of abortion would only penalize poor people and probably wouldn't really cut down the number of abortions much, if at all. My friend voted for Trump in 2016 and is planning on voting for him again in 2020, pretty much only because she's hoping he'll appoint enough anti-abortion judges to the SCOTUS, so that they can overturn Roe v Wade. Rather than endless philosophical debates over abortion, which don't really seem to accomplish much, why not just agree to disagree about some things and, then, work together to accomplish the things we can agree on to try to cut down the number of abortions? If those of us who consider ourselves to be pro-choice could bring ourselves to humbly approach pro-life friends and relatives and share with them the fact that, "You know what? I'm with you. Killing babies is a horrible thing. Let's work together to try to cut down the number of abortions in our city or county or state or country." Many of the anti-abortion people who are holding their noses and voting for Trump probably wouldn't do so if they didn't feel like he was their only chance to "save the babies."

It won’t work. It’s been tried. Remember “safe, legal, and rare”?

We’ve been cast as baby killers with no soul. It’s part of their identities to believe they are crusading for babies’ lives and protecting them against heartless murderers.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #456 on: June 21, 2020, 08:31:27 AM »
I get it, you're clearly upset. And you're all over the place. At this point, no further progress will be made, so this time, there really truly is no point in continuing the conversation. I will, however, leave you with this.

You are extremely biased against religion. I'm not wanting to argue about this, because there is nothing to argue. I'm just pointing out an observation that I'm pretty sure anyone reading this can see.

It's like as soon as the word religion came up, you were like a train heading for one destination, regardless of anything else that would be brought up henceforth. How do I know this? Because your bias against religion has lead you to make assumptions throughout this argument. Assumptions that have been wrong.

You assumed I was a Catholic. You were wrong.
You assumed you knew more about Christianity than I knew. I have a masters degree in the topic. It's extremely unlikely that you know more about it than I do. You were wrong.
You assume you know more about the Constitution, how it was founded, what the amendments were intended to do in regards to religion, etc. I am not as confident in this as I don't have as much study as I do in the former, but from the way you're posting on it, I doubt this as well.
You assume you know exactly what I want to happen in regards to abortion from the perspective of the government. Given the general accusations you've made (you kind of lump me/politicians/general Christians/etc. together, so I'm going to do the same here), you're wrong.

Are you noticing a theme here? You are "fill in the blank whatever negative mindset you have" biased against religion.  You have a person opening a dialogue with you, and your mindset is leading you to numerous assumptions about that person.......that are wrong. Ergo, no real dialogue can take place.

You can blame it on a short fuse/lack of patience/that you're just a stereotypical New Yorker that doesn't put up with BS or whatever it is that you want to use to excuse your poor behavior. It doesn't really matter. I mean, shoot, you've even pulled the "I have some people I really respect that are religious" card right in line with the "I have a black friend; I'm not racist" card, lol (caveat before I'm accused of something, no these are not comparable because I'm not being oppressed, it's just that the line of logic is the same). If it wasn't so sad, it would be funny.

You can go through your whole life looking down on people who come from a religious background or thinking their opinions are suspect or disregarding what people think about things because they don't look at them the same way you do. And I'll be clear here; I'm under no impression that this will make any difference to you whatsoever. I will only say that I was very much like you on the other end of things. I looked down on liberals/athiests/etc. I didn't really give their perspectives attention or decreased the merit of their thoughts because of where they were coming from. When they disagreed with me, the one fact that they were coming from a liberal perspective, for example, was all I needed to demean, at least in my mind, their beliefs and not even pay it a bit of attention. I didn't care because I knew - I just knew that they were liberals, so their ideas were this or that or the other and all they wanted to do was this or that, and I already knew that all of that was wrong. Why did I even need to listen? If they happened to agree with me perfectly enough to satisfy my strong opinions, then great, see that was proof I was open minded....except it wasn't because I wasn't. I wasn't listening to learn from them because I knew they were wrong. If I listened at all, it was to confirm opinions I already have (this all being kind of the point of topic of this whole thread). Fortunately I've grown out of that at least a little. I hope that one day, you can do the same. Have a good one.

Ok, now you are gas-lighting. Most probably from a position of sincerity - but still!!
Yes, I am very much aware of many foibles that I possess. I appreciate your constructive feedback, it'll keep my "daily time for reflection" occupied for some time.

Are you aware of the "philosophical arrogance" (possibly from a position of ignorance) that you are displaying here?

I can understand that you have grown up in a moral world-view where "my god is the only true god and everyone else are sinners" background persisted. This informs your worldview so that you think your moral positions are what should be imposed on everybody with the force of law. Why else would you want to restrict other people's personal freedom (i.e. the most fundamental kind of freedom that can exist) based on your faith? You obviously can't know when life begins by any other means other than your faith. Why should that be the arbiter of truth for the unbeliever?

I blame this on the renaissance-era bifurcation of European philosophy caused by the secular philosophers. Christian Theology bifurcated and failed to benefit from the new thought processes and spirituality that the secular philosophers were bringing into play.

This dude makes a fantastic podcast about the history of philosophy of the entire world:
https://historyofphilosophy.net/

(He is missing China. I don't have a good reference for that. Maybe someone else would know.)

I'm just sampling through this from the vast number of episodes that he has posted there.

Since you seem to come from a position of sincerity, I am quite hopeful that your position of imposing your faith on others will go away if you are able to go through some other philosophical traditions with an open mind.

Theology -> spirituality is a fantastic journey, and it strips you of moral arrogance.

I'm sure I am displaying some arrogance here. It's really hard to not come at anything with arrogance or ego. I can assure you that I am completely sincere in what I'm saying.

I am actually kind of glad that I've engaged somewhat on abortion somewhat here. it's been very informative. On the one hand, I've been pleased at the actual discussion that's taken place amongst most people. Good back and forth, and arguments that have helped me again to refine my point of view as I've seen the point of view of others. On the other side of things, your arguments have shown me why it's still best not to engage in these discussions. There's always at least one person that does what you're doing.

It's a common practice of someone to accuse someone of something like gaslighting or logical fallacies like straw manning or whatever just to deflect the issue. Sometimes it's true sometimes it isn't. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're doing it sincerely, but it really doesn't matter when I'm not trying to psych you out. I'm actually trying to get you to see something that you're refusing to see.

In this case, I'm not arguing with you on the abortion issue because you're proven to be inflexible. Note I say proven. It's beyond a doubt at this point.

You commented earlier something about religious people not being willing to change opinions or anything (something like that, I don't feel like going back to read it again). This was, yet another assumption you've made. And another one that you are wrong on. I've changed my opinion on dozens of issues from social safety nets to flag burning to taxation to issues I hold very strong opinions like gun control and abortion. These changes have ranged from total 180's to more changes of nuance, but I have changed my opinions on them. I'm no perfect person. I just know that I have grown and am willing to grow more.

I don't know you, but I do know that on this issue, you have proven yourself to be as completely inflexible as I've ever seen in any argument on this site. It's so inflexible not just because you're not willing to change your opinion - I've seen that plenty of times. It's because you're not willing to consider the other side has any well-reasoned thoughts on why you might be wrong. You can't see it, because you're too busy classifying any reasoning on the issue other than your own as religious so that you can then disregard them. You've already been called out by Bloop Bloop and commented by wrenchturner that there's no reason for arguing further. They've tried to show you there's another side, and you've totally disregarded them. These two people are coming from the same or similar philosophical background as you (as far as I can tell) either against banning abortions or atheist or both.

And yet you still plow right on. No one is defending your arguments. They might agree with your points, but no one is really defending how you're going about doing it. At some point, it behooves us to look around and say, wow, maybe the issue is actually with me. Further arguments with you in on this would be the intellectual equivalent of banging my head against a wall. I'm trying to get better about walking away when it gets to that point on stuff. Again, have a good one.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 08:39:01 AM by Wolfpack Mustachian »

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #457 on: June 21, 2020, 08:40:19 AM »
Until a couple of years ago, I always thought of myself as being pro-abortion. After some recent conversations with an adamantly anti-abortion friend, I thought about it and realized that, like my friend, I am also against killing babies. I mean, aside from Bloop Bloop, and I'm pretty sure he's not being totally serious, do any of us really think the world would be a better place if only we could get more women to have abortions? Of course not, right? My pro-life friend and I agreed on just about everything: that minimizing the number of abortions would be a good thing; that providing people with free birth control and education on how to use it would be a good way to help minimize the number of babies killed; the only thing we didn't agree on was whether or not it made sense to criminalize abortion for healthcare providers and/or patients. I argued that the criminalization of abortion would only penalize poor people and probably wouldn't really cut down the number of abortions much, if at all. My friend voted for Trump in 2016 and is planning on voting for him again in 2020, pretty much only because she's hoping he'll appoint enough anti-abortion judges to the SCOTUS, so that they can overturn Roe v Wade. Rather than endless philosophical debates over abortion, which don't really seem to accomplish much, why not just agree to disagree about some things and, then, work together to accomplish the things we can agree on to try to cut down the number of abortions? If those of us who consider ourselves to be pro-choice could bring ourselves to humbly approach pro-life friends and relatives and share with them the fact that, "You know what? I'm with you. Killing babies is a horrible thing. Let's work together to try to cut down the number of abortions in our city or county or state or country." Many of the anti-abortion people who are holding their noses and voting for Trump probably wouldn't do so if they didn't feel like he was their only chance to "save the babies."

It won’t work. It’s been tried. Remember “safe, legal, and rare”?

We’ve been cast as baby killers with no soul. It’s part of their identities to believe they are crusading for babies’ lives and protecting them against heartless murderers.

If you're fair though, there's people on both sides that stereotype, denigrate, and demean the other. Case in point, ctuser.

ctuser1

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #458 on: June 21, 2020, 08:52:58 AM »

I'm sure I am displaying some arrogance here. It's really hard to not come at anything with arrogance or ego. I can assure you that I am completely sincere in what I'm saying.

I am actually kind of glad that I've engaged somewhat on abortion somewhat here. it's been very informative. On the one hand, I've been pleased at the actual discussion that's taken place amongst most people. Good back and forth, and arguments that have helped me again to refine my point of view as I've seen the point of view of others. On the other side of things, your arguments have shown me why it's still best not to engage in these discussions. There's always at least one person that does what you're doing.

It's a common practice of someone to accuse someone of something like gaslighting or logical fallacies like straw manning or whatever just to deflect the issue. Sometimes it's true sometimes it isn't. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're doing it sincerely, but it really doesn't matter when I'm not trying to psych you out. I'm actually trying to get you to see something that you're refusing to see.

In this case, I'm not arguing with you on the abortion issue because you're proven to be inflexible. Note I say proven. It's beyond a doubt at this point.

You commented earlier something about religious people not being willing to change opinions or anything (something like that, I don't feel like going back to read it again). This was, yet another assumption you've made. And another one that you are wrong on. I've changed my opinion on dozens of issues from social safety nets to flag burning to taxation to issues I hold very strong opinions like gun control and abortion. These changes have ranged from total 180's to more changes of nuance, but I have changed my opinions on them. I'm no perfect person. I just know that I have grown and am willing to grow more.

I don't know you, but I do know that on this issue, you have proven yourself to be as completely inflexible as I've ever seen in any argument on this site. It's so inflexible not just because you're not willing to change your opinion - I've seen that plenty of times. It's because you're not willing to consider the other side has any well-reasoned thoughts on why you might be wrong. You can't see it, because you're too busy classifying any reasoning on the issue other than your own as religious so that you can then disregard them. You've already been called out by Bloop Bloop and commented by wrenchturner that there's no reason for arguing further. They've tried to show you there's another side, and you've totally disregarded them. These two people are coming from the same or similar philosophical background as you (as far as I can tell) either against banning abortions or atheist or both.

And yet you still plow right on. No one is defending your arguments. They might agree with your points, but no one is really defending how you're going about doing it. At some point, it behooves us to look around and say, wow, maybe the issue is actually with me. Further arguments with you in on this would be the intellectual equivalent of banging my head against a wall. I'm trying to get better about walking away when it gets to that point on stuff. Again, have a good one.

There are only two sides:

One posits, with zero flexibility, that it somehow has the right to legislate over women's body based on unproven cultural/religious beliefs, irrespective of whether the woman in question shares those beliefs.

I point out that you have no such right.

I don't see *any* flexibility from you and many others on this topic - at least not on the core issue. That would be expected when you are brainwashed to view women as chattel. Are you?

Again, I don't post this with an aim to convince you. From what I have read from your posts, you most likely can not logically arrive at the conclusion that women's body is not your legislative playground. It is more to clarify the point of contention for the sake of the record, because you are thoroughly confusing the real issue that I have pointed out many time - intentionally or not.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 09:13:21 AM by ctuser1 »

Shane

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #459 on: June 21, 2020, 09:20:55 AM »
Now, looking at this otherwise irrelevant abortion discussion, consider: by engaging in discussions with people you disagree with, you have learned something - if only how to better argue for what you believe.

Associating only with those you agree with leads to being in a cult waiting for the end of the world coming at some precise date. Less extremely, it leads to political polarisation and jamming up the machinery of government as nobody will ever compromise with anyone because they are just so damned sure they're right.

In the army, one of the things we did was, if two guys couldn't get along on recruit course, they were put in adjacent bunks, and told, "Smith and Jones, you are now best mates - if you fuck up, Smith, then Jones will be punished, and vice versa - we suggest you work together and neither of you gets punished, but that's up to you." Interestingly, almost all of those pairings ended up being able to work productively together.

More people need an experience like that, it stops you being intellectually lazy and becoming stupid.
For these reasons, as well as others, I think mandatory military service for all Americans would be a good thing.

LWYRUP

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #460 on: June 21, 2020, 09:31:36 AM »
Now, looking at this otherwise irrelevant abortion discussion, consider: by engaging in discussions with people you disagree with, you have learned something - if only how to better argue for what you believe.

Associating only with those you agree with leads to being in a cult waiting for the end of the world coming at some precise date. Less extremely, it leads to political polarisation and jamming up the machinery of government as nobody will ever compromise with anyone because they are just so damned sure they're right.

In the army, one of the things we did was, if two guys couldn't get along on recruit course, they were put in adjacent bunks, and told, "Smith and Jones, you are now best mates - if you fuck up, Smith, then Jones will be punished, and vice versa - we suggest you work together and neither of you gets punished, but that's up to you." Interestingly, almost all of those pairings ended up being able to work productively together.

More people need an experience like that, it stops you being intellectually lazy and becoming stupid.
For these reasons, as well as others, I think mandatory military service for all Americans would be a good thing.

Mandatory service, perhaps.  Mandatory military service, no.  I fail to see how marching around with a gun for a year would have made me a better person. 

Shane

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #461 on: June 21, 2020, 09:34:47 AM »
Until a couple of years ago, I always thought of myself as being pro-abortion. After some recent conversations with an adamantly anti-abortion friend, I thought about it and realized that, like my friend, I am also against killing babies. I mean, aside from Bloop Bloop, and I'm pretty sure he's not being totally serious, do any of us really think the world would be a better place if only we could get more women to have abortions? Of course not, right? My pro-life friend and I agreed on just about everything: that minimizing the number of abortions would be a good thing; that providing people with free birth control and education on how to use it would be a good way to help minimize the number of babies killed; the only thing we didn't agree on was whether or not it made sense to criminalize abortion for healthcare providers and/or patients. I argued that the criminalization of abortion would only penalize poor people and probably wouldn't really cut down the number of abortions much, if at all. My friend voted for Trump in 2016 and is planning on voting for him again in 2020, pretty much only because she's hoping he'll appoint enough anti-abortion judges to the SCOTUS, so that they can overturn Roe v Wade. Rather than endless philosophical debates over abortion, which don't really seem to accomplish much, why not just agree to disagree about some things and, then, work together to accomplish the things we can agree on to try to cut down the number of abortions? If those of us who consider ourselves to be pro-choice could bring ourselves to humbly approach pro-life friends and relatives and share with them the fact that, "You know what? I'm with you. Killing babies is a horrible thing. Let's work together to try to cut down the number of abortions in our city or county or state or country." Many of the anti-abortion people who are holding their noses and voting for Trump probably wouldn't do so if they didn't feel like he was their only chance to "save the babies."

It won’t work. It’s been tried. Remember “safe, legal, and rare”?

We’ve been cast as baby killers with no soul. It’s part of their identities to believe they are crusading for babies’ lives and protecting them against heartless murderers.

If you're fair though, there's people on both sides that stereotype, denigrate, and demean the other. Case in point, ctuser.
As I said in my comment, some people aren't worth worrying about, but there are others who are open to reason, and I think it's worthwhile to engage with those people. I don't know that there has been a concerted effort to make birth control freely available to Americans. As we drove and camped our way across the US last summer, I noticed that in some Walmarts where we stopped for supplies, condoms were locked up in glass cases. When I looked at the prices they were charging for them, I realized why. Desperate people who can't afford condoms are willing to risk going to jail to steal them. A rich person like Michael Bloomberg, Tom Steyer or Bill Gates could afford to just bypass the normal political obstacles to providing free birth control to everyone, and just do it. Maybe we could even get some anti-abortion billionaire to fund free condoms for all. Seems like it couldn't hurt to try.

Shane

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #462 on: June 21, 2020, 09:41:38 AM »
Now, looking at this otherwise irrelevant abortion discussion, consider: by engaging in discussions with people you disagree with, you have learned something - if only how to better argue for what you believe.

Associating only with those you agree with leads to being in a cult waiting for the end of the world coming at some precise date. Less extremely, it leads to political polarisation and jamming up the machinery of government as nobody will ever compromise with anyone because they are just so damned sure they're right.

In the army, one of the things we did was, if two guys couldn't get along on recruit course, they were put in adjacent bunks, and told, "Smith and Jones, you are now best mates - if you fuck up, Smith, then Jones will be punished, and vice versa - we suggest you work together and neither of you gets punished, but that's up to you." Interestingly, almost all of those pairings ended up being able to work productively together.

More people need an experience like that, it stops you being intellectually lazy and becoming stupid.
For these reasons, as well as others, I think mandatory military service for all Americans would be a good thing.

Mandatory service, perhaps.  Mandatory military service, no.  I fail to see how marching around with a gun for a year would have made me a better person.
Offering two tracks - military and civilian service - would defeat the purpose, because Americans would divide themselves up roughly along the current lines in the culture war. Every one of us has a responsibility to defend our country. Learning how to safely use guns would be a good thing for all Americans. Although everyone learns how to use guns in basic training, not all of them are "marching around with a gun," everyday. Many are cooks or software engineers or work in a warehouse. If Americans of all stripes were required to work together for a common goal (defense of our country), I think we would all be better off.

partgypsy

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #463 on: June 21, 2020, 09:46:11 AM »
I am late coming onto the scene. For the original question I would say "it depends". I might disagree with someone about various poltical issues  (how much taxation is fair, how much military do we need etc) and if it was a matter of degree, but not absolutes and they defended their reasoning, I would be OK with it. On other matters (which has been recently discussed, abortion) as well as whether climate change is real or not, I find those people very inflexible. In part because their belief stems from dogma or religious beliefs, which I don't feel has a place in what rights people should have in this society, where we have freedom of religion, and freedom from religion. In those cases I have found it is nonproductive to engage those people because they aren't going to listen to what I have to say, either. I feel my opinion of abortion is hard-won. I was born a female, had to deal with all the stuff females have to, have had periods for x decades, have had near misses, know people who have had abortions (none whom regretted it) have known people who decided to keep the pregnancy and either give up for adoption or keep. It's not pro abortion. It is pro-CHOICE. That the choice to keep or terminate the pregnancy is the person who is bearing the pregnancy. If you strip away that right to a choice, or the right to birth control from a woman, you are OK with half the population being a 2nd class citizen, having less rights over her own body and bodily integrity than the other half (talk about interference of the government in one's personal life!). There is no way around our view of the world being incompatible. I also have a strong emotional feeling about it, because people who are anti-choice often are the same people who are trying to push planned parenthood and other women's health clinics out of business or out of their states. These clinics don't just provide abortions. They also provide gynecological healthcare services to low income women and yes, birth control. So the same people who say they are pro "babies", are by their actions when a low income woman gets pregnant, increases the danger and decreases the health and positive outcomes of the woman and the fetus during pregnancy. Which I find horrible and hypocritical.   
« Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 10:27:36 AM by partgypsy »

ysette9

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #464 on: June 21, 2020, 12:18:56 PM »
I am late coming onto the scene. For the original question I would say "it depends". I might disagree with someone about various poltical issues  (how much taxation is fair, how much military do we need etc) and if it was a matter of degree, but not absolutes and they defended their reasoning, I would be OK with it. On other matters (which has been recently discussed, abortion) as well as whether climate change is real or not, I find those people very inflexible. In part because their belief stems from dogma or religious beliefs, which I don't feel has a place in what rights people should have in this society, where we have freedom of religion, and freedom from religion. In those cases I have found it is nonproductive to engage those people because they aren't going to listen to what I have to say, either. I feel my opinion of abortion is hard-won. I was born a female, had to deal with all the stuff females have to, have had periods for x decades, have had near misses, know people who have had abortions (none whom regretted it) have known people who decided to keep the pregnancy and either give up for adoption or keep. It's not pro abortion. It is pro-CHOICE. That the choice to keep or terminate the pregnancy is the person who is bearing the pregnancy. If you strip away that right to a choice, or the right to birth control from a woman, you are OK with half the population being a 2nd class citizen, having less rights over her own body and bodily integrity than the other half (talk about interference of the government in one's personal life!). There is no way around our view of the world being incompatible. I also have a strong emotional feeling about it, because people who are anti-choice often are the same people who are trying to push planned parenthood and other women's health clinics out of business or out of their states. These clinics don't just provide abortions. They also provide gynecological healthcare services to low income women and yes, birth control. So the same people who say they are pro "babies", are by their actions when a low income woman gets pregnant, increases the danger and decreases the health and positive outcomes of the woman and the fetus during pregnancy. Which I find horrible and hypocritical.
So much this. I try not to engage or even think about this too much in my privileged bubble because it ENRAGES me to think of someone trying to deny me my fundamental human right to bodily autonomy. I don’t have words to express how awful that concept is.

On a personal note, in the second trimester of my first pregnancy I got a call saying that my 2nd tri blood screen came up positive for some rare and debilitating genetic disorder. We were whisked into a genetic counselor’s office to learn what this was about and what steps we needed to take next to confirm or rule out the diagnosis. They were very calm, informative, and supportive, but there was an underlying urgency. You have to collect data and make shockingly difficult and long-lasting decisions of profound importance quickly because the clock is ticking and you have to make these choices by X date or you are out of luck. Thank gods we lived in a state where that choice was on the table.

In our case it was “easier” in that the fetus had already died in utero and that led to a false genetic disorder test result. So next choice was what to do medically. Again, thankfully I lived in a good state that gave me options of inducing in a normal L&D  ward (horrifying for me personally) or surgery (“therapeutic abortion”). This was a dark and unspeakably difficult time and the only solace I had was that I had full CHOICE over my own medical care. You would be horrified by the stories on this very forum of the bullshit women have to go through in other states that restrict access to mastic medical care. Traveling out of state and paying out of pocket for abortions to end non-viable fetuses, choosing not to risk future bad experiences by not having a wanted additional child due to living in a shitty state, etc.

I am appreciative of the fact that it is a tough subject and there is nuance. I am not insensitive to the arguments of the other side. When I took a philosophy class the type of moral system that most resonated with me was something along the lines of “that which is right is that which brings the most good to the most people”. Clearly it is not always easy to figure out what the best good for the most people is, but in this case to me it is very clear. The unintended consequences of restricting access to birth control and choice are vast and vicious. There is a reason why pretty much all other rich countries in the world aren’t arguing about that anymore and the US is one of the few holdouts in the archaic culture wars: everyone has figured out that society is better for everyone when women are first class citizens will full human rights. Period.

bacchi

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #465 on: June 21, 2020, 01:10:26 PM »
Yes, for sure there are some anti-abortion people who are also anti birth control and anti sex education but, as far as I'm concerned, people like that a lost cause. Some anti-abortion people, though, are more reasonable, like my friend. If Democrats worked harder to help those rational, reasonable anti-abortion people feel like there was an alternative to holding their noses and voting for Trump, some of them might agree to work with us. A highly educated, Left-leaning friend told me recently that, "Anti-abortion people are terrorists. They blow up abortion clinics." It's attitudes like her's that drive otherwise reasonable people into the arms of Trump.

So...these reasonable anti-abortion people can't work with Democrats on increased access to birth control and sex education because some liberal, somewhere on social media, doesn't like them? And that drives them to vote for Trump? That's some weak sauce that won't even win an honorable mention at the county fair.


Quote from: https://www.revrobschenck.com/blog/2020/2/17/why-i-will-not-vote-for-donald-trump
I’ve decided  to work for Trump’s defeat in November.

That’s not easy for me to type. I have several friends who work for Mr. Trump. I have many more who support him. I voted only Republican for 40 years. In myriad ways it seems Trump is fulfilling all the social and political dreams I harbored for more than 35 years.

But I just can’t vote for him because doing so would be to vote for only my tribe’s triumph while it would be a vote against the wellbeing of too many others.

Many friends are now grinding their teeth, seething with anger, and will no doubt unfriend me everywhere they can. Most won’t go, though, until they’ve posted something—possibly vitriolic—on one of my social media pages.

(The "friends" in the last sentence ^^ are not liberals, if you don't know who Bob Schenck is.)

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #466 on: June 21, 2020, 06:24:23 PM »
It's much better to discuss points of disagreement.
Well, you are a lawyer after all :p

But obviously I agree with you there. I was reading elsewhere about the the religious right in the US about 1980-2000 or so, where every disagreement was greeted with "why do you hate America?" and "don't you support the troops?" or even "why do you hate Jesus?", and how they had a list of books you couldn't read, and so on. And now that's the left in the US.

Our version in Australia is somewhat watered down from that distilled manichaeism, but we still get it here a bit. "Why do you hate women and aboriginals?", books and films being "cancelled", and so on. And of course, people fervently blocking one another on social media.

It's seems that some amount of psychological and ideological fragility is inherent in Western culture, the only question is whether it's left, right, or whatever. Odd, really.

Abe

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #467 on: June 21, 2020, 08:16:18 PM »
It's much better to discuss points of disagreement.
Well, you are a lawyer after all :p

But obviously I agree with you there. I was reading elsewhere about the the religious right in the US about 1980-2000 or so, where every disagreement was greeted with "why do you hate America?" and "don't you support the troops?" or even "why do you hate Jesus?", and how they had a list of books you couldn't read, and so on. And now that's the left in the US.

Our version in Australia is somewhat watered down from that distilled manichaeism, but we still get it here a bit. "Why do you hate women and aboriginals?", books and films being "cancelled", and so on. And of course, people fervently blocking one another on social media.

It's seems that some amount of psychological and ideological fragility is inherent in Western culture, the only question is whether it's left, right, or whatever. Odd, really.

I think that’s both sides over here now. It was such an effective tactic for the right that now the far left has adopted it. We’re just great. I’m ok with disagreements on economics and social liberties, but a lot of that has been steeped in identity politics by both sides to avoid constructive discussion.

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #468 on: June 21, 2020, 08:43:34 PM »
It's much better to discuss points of disagreement.
Well, you are a lawyer after all :p

But obviously I agree with you there. I was reading elsewhere about the the religious right in the US about 1980-2000 or so, where every disagreement was greeted with "why do you hate America?" and "don't you support the troops?" or even "why do you hate Jesus?", and how they had a list of books you couldn't read, and so on. And now that's the left in the US.

Our version in Australia is somewhat watered down from that distilled manichaeism, but we still get it here a bit. "Why do you hate women and aboriginals?", books and films being "cancelled", and so on. And of course, people fervently blocking one another on social media.

It's seems that some amount of psychological and ideological fragility is inherent in Western culture, the only question is whether it's left, right, or whatever. Odd, really.

It’s not that odd if you look it as history rhyming. We saw the rise of neo-McCarthyism on the right. And right on cue, here’s the rise of neo-Stalinism on the left.

Kris

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #469 on: June 21, 2020, 08:50:25 PM »
It's much better to discuss points of disagreement.
Well, you are a lawyer after all :p

But obviously I agree with you there. I was reading elsewhere about the the religious right in the US about 1980-2000 or so, where every disagreement was greeted with "why do you hate America?" and "don't you support the troops?" or even "why do you hate Jesus?", and how they had a list of books you couldn't read, and so on. And now that's the left in the US.

Our version in Australia is somewhat watered down from that distilled manichaeism, but we still get it here a bit. "Why do you hate women and aboriginals?", books and films being "cancelled", and so on. And of course, people fervently blocking one another on social media.

It's seems that some amount of psychological and ideological fragility is inherent in Western culture, the only question is whether it's left, right, or whatever. Odd, really.

It’s not that odd if you look it as history rhyming. We saw the rise of neo-McCarthyism on the right. And right on cue, here’s the rise of neo-Stalinism on the left.

Neo-Stalinism is...
Transgender rights and Black Lives Matter?

...

Am I missing something?

Or is Neo-Stalinism pulling down confederate statues?

Not quite sure.

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #470 on: June 21, 2020, 09:03:05 PM »
It's much better to discuss points of disagreement.
Well, you are a lawyer after all :p

But obviously I agree with you there. I was reading elsewhere about the the religious right in the US about 1980-2000 or so, where every disagreement was greeted with "why do you hate America?" and "don't you support the troops?" or even "why do you hate Jesus?", and how they had a list of books you couldn't read, and so on. And now that's the left in the US.

Our version in Australia is somewhat watered down from that distilled manichaeism, but we still get it here a bit. "Why do you hate women and aboriginals?", books and films being "cancelled", and so on. And of course, people fervently blocking one another on social media.

It's seems that some amount of psychological and ideological fragility is inherent in Western culture, the only question is whether it's left, right, or whatever. Odd, really.

I think that’s both sides over here now. It was such an effective tactic for the right that now the far left has adopted it. We’re just great. I’m ok with disagreements on economics and social liberties, but a lot of that has been steeped in identity politics by both sides to avoid constructive discussion.

Constructive discussion isn’t the objective. Power is. If viewed through that lens, having a never-ending screaming match that is very light on actual dialogue makes some sense. It serves to keep the existing pecking order in place.

If the heat is on other people, it isn’t on you.

partgypsy

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #471 on: June 21, 2020, 09:05:47 PM »
One YouTuber whom was shared with me recently is good at popping balloons on the right AND left side. Look up Contrapoints.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 06:54:40 AM by partgypsy »

Kris

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #472 on: June 22, 2020, 06:21:59 AM »
One YouTuber whom was shared with me recently is good at popping balloons on the right AND left side. Look up contrapoints.

I really like Contrapoints. I haven’t watched them all because I generally prefer reading to watching videos. But they’re excellent.

Shane

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #473 on: June 22, 2020, 09:11:01 AM »
One YouTuber whom was shared with me recently is good at popping balloons on the right AND left side. Look up contrapoints.

I really like Contrapoints. I haven’t watched them all because I generally prefer reading to watching videos. But they’re excellent.
I've also enjoyed a couple of Contrapoints' videos. One thing I've struggled with when recommending Contrapoints to friends is which gender pronouns to use when talking about them. I understand the reasoning but still find it really fucking awkward to use plural pronouns to refer to one person.

Kris

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #474 on: June 22, 2020, 09:22:48 AM »
One YouTuber whom was shared with me recently is good at popping balloons on the right AND left side. Look up contrapoints.

I really like Contrapoints. I haven’t watched them all because I generally prefer reading to watching videos. But they’re excellent.
I've also enjoyed a couple of Contrapoints' videos. One thing I've struggled with when recommending Contrapoints to friends is which gender pronouns to use when talking about them. I understand the reasoning but still find it really fucking awkward to use plural pronouns to refer to one person.

I believe she uses she, does she not?

Shane

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #475 on: June 22, 2020, 09:34:54 AM »
One YouTuber whom was shared with me recently is good at popping balloons on the right AND left side. Look up contrapoints.

I really like Contrapoints. I haven’t watched them all because I generally prefer reading to watching videos. But they’re excellent.
I've also enjoyed a couple of Contrapoints' videos. One thing I've struggled with when recommending Contrapoints to friends is which gender pronouns to use when talking about them. I understand the reasoning but still find it really fucking awkward to use plural pronouns to refer to one person.

I believe she uses she, does she not?

Not sure. I've used she/her to refer to Contrapoints in the past, but wasn't sure if that was right. Re-reading your comment above, I think I misread it the first time. Your use of they was referring to videos, not the person.

Kris

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #476 on: June 22, 2020, 10:01:59 AM »
One YouTuber whom was shared with me recently is good at popping balloons on the right AND left side. Look up contrapoints.

I really like Contrapoints. I haven’t watched them all because I generally prefer reading to watching videos. But they’re excellent.
I've also enjoyed a couple of Contrapoints' videos. One thing I've struggled with when recommending Contrapoints to friends is which gender pronouns to use when talking about them. I understand the reasoning but still find it really fucking awkward to use plural pronouns to refer to one person.

I believe she uses she, does she not?

Not sure. I've used she/her to refer to Contrapoints in the past, but wasn't sure if that was right. Re-reading your comment above, I think I misread it the first time. Your use of they was referring to videos, not the person.

Yes, exactly. I'm pretty sure (like 99%) that she uses she/her pronouns.

sherr

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #477 on: June 22, 2020, 10:23:29 AM »
One thing I've struggled with when recommending Contrapoints to friends is which gender pronouns to use when talking about them. I understand the reasoning but still find it really fucking awkward to use plural pronouns to refer to one person.

A side note, but I just wanted to point out that using they/them to refer to singular people has been standard English since forever, it's merely normally used when referring to a singular non-concrete person whose gender is not necessarily known in the context. "Whoever the next Secretary of Energy is, I hope they do something about our degrading nuclear weapon stockpile." "The CEO of Disney exercised their stock options last night and made forty trillion dollars."

The only thing that's different with using they/them as pronouns is that you didn't used to do it when looking at someone's face, only when talking about them in abstract. But that's not that much of a stretch, IMO.

bacchi

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #478 on: June 22, 2020, 11:57:45 AM »
One thing I've struggled with when recommending Contrapoints to friends is which gender pronouns to use when talking about them. I understand the reasoning but still find it really fucking awkward to use plural pronouns to refer to one person.

A side note, but I just wanted to point out that using they/them to refer to singular people has been standard English since forever, it's merely normally used when referring to a singular non-concrete person whose gender is not necessarily known in the context. "Whoever the next Secretary of Energy is, I hope they do something about our degrading nuclear weapon stockpile." "The CEO of Disney exercised their stock options last night and made forty trillion dollars."

The only thing that's different with using they/them as pronouns is that you didn't used to do it when looking at someone's face, only when talking about them in abstract. But that's not that much of a stretch, IMO.

While true, it is awkward to discuss someone that uses a "they/them" as singular. It's changing years of patterns.

For example, my duplex tenants were she/her and they/them. If a friend dropped by and saw me in the yard, they'd ask about...them. "They went to the store real quick. They'll be right back." Did I mean one person or both of them? I'd correct myself, "Both of them went to the store," but there's initial uncertainty.

Like latinx for latino/latina, the US language need gender neutral pronouns.

sherr

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #479 on: June 22, 2020, 12:05:00 PM »
One thing I've struggled with when recommending Contrapoints to friends is which gender pronouns to use when talking about them. I understand the reasoning but still find it really fucking awkward to use plural pronouns to refer to one person.

A side note, but I just wanted to point out that using they/them to refer to singular people has been standard English since forever, it's merely normally used when referring to a singular non-concrete person whose gender is not necessarily known in the context. "Whoever the next Secretary of Energy is, I hope they do something about our degrading nuclear weapon stockpile." "The CEO of Disney exercised their stock options last night and made forty trillion dollars."

The only thing that's different with using they/them as pronouns is that you didn't used to do it when looking at someone's face, only when talking about them in abstract. But that's not that much of a stretch, IMO.

While true, it is awkward to discuss someone that uses a "they/them" as singular. It's changing years of patterns.

For example, my duplex tenants were she/her and they/them. If a friend dropped by and saw me in the yard, they'd ask about...them. "They went to the store real quick. They'll be right back." Did I mean one person or both of them? I'd correct myself, "Both of them went to the store," but there's initial uncertainty.

Like latinx for latino/latina, the US language need gender neutral pronouns.

Right, that is exactly why people are starting to use they/them that way, because it's needed. Sure, any transition period for any possible solution is going to be awkward. That doesn't mean this isn't the best proposed solution to a real problem. Would dedicated made-up words be better?

bacchi

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #480 on: June 22, 2020, 12:15:32 PM »
Like latinx for latino/latina, the US language need gender neutral pronouns.

Right, that is exactly why people are starting to use they/them that way, because it's needed. Sure, any transition period for any possible solution is going to be awkward. That doesn't mean this isn't the best proposed solution to a real problem. Would dedicated made-up words be better?

Yes, of course. Using the same word for plural and singular is silly and inefficient. Why create another problem when we're trying to get rid of one?

It's not a matter of letting others know that you're non-binary. If you declare yourself to be they/them, it's already a statement of what you believe/who you are to some extent. It could just as easily be Ze/zir instead of taking over a plural pronoun already in use and understood by 1 billion english speakers.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 12:17:10 PM by bacchi »

sherr

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #481 on: June 22, 2020, 12:23:06 PM »
Like latinx for latino/latina, the US language need gender neutral pronouns.

Right, that is exactly why people are starting to use they/them that way, because it's needed. Sure, any transition period for any possible solution is going to be awkward. That doesn't mean this isn't the best proposed solution to a real problem. Would dedicated made-up words be better?

Yes, of course. Using the same word for plural and singular is silly and inefficient. Why create another problem when we're trying to get rid of one?

It's not a matter of letting others know that you're non-binary. If you declare yourself to be they/them, it's already a statement of what you believe/who you are to some extent. It could just as easily be Ze/zir instead of taking over a plural pronoun already in use and understood by 1 billion english speakers.

Okay, I guess this is a good agree-to-disagree moment. There is 0% chance that ze/zir would ever become commonly used, for starters because there's no way to come to a consensus about which made-up word should be used. A solution that is implemented is by definition better than a solution that cannot be implemented. And they aren't just plural pronouns, they are already "plural, or singular given an unknown gender" pronouns. So the only change is extending the concept of "singular w/ unknown gender" a bit. Which sure, requires an awkward transition period, but will actually work.

Edit to say: English is not and never has been a perfectly-precise language. Neither is any other natural language. Nor is it static, the meanings of words have always changed over time. I see nothing special or unique about this situation to justify the overall levels of consternation about it.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 12:38:05 PM by sherr »

ericrugiero

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #482 on: June 22, 2020, 12:50:00 PM »
I am late coming onto the scene. For the original question I would say "it depends". I might disagree with someone about various poltical issues  (how much taxation is fair, how much military do we need etc) and if it was a matter of degree, but not absolutes and they defended their reasoning, I would be OK with it. On other matters (which has been recently discussed, abortion) as well as whether climate change is real or not, I find those people very inflexible. In part because their belief stems from dogma or religious beliefs, which I don't feel has a place in what rights people should have in this society, where we have freedom of religion, and freedom from religion. In those cases I have found it is nonproductive to engage those people because they aren't going to listen to what I have to say, either. I feel my opinion of abortion is hard-won. I was born a female, had to deal with all the stuff females have to, have had periods for x decades, have had near misses, know people who have had abortions (none whom regretted it) have known people who decided to keep the pregnancy and either give up for adoption or keep. It's not pro abortion. It is pro-CHOICE. That the choice to keep or terminate the pregnancy is the person who is bearing the pregnancy. If you strip away that right to a choice, or the right to birth control from a woman, you are OK with half the population being a 2nd class citizen, having less rights over her own body and bodily integrity than the other half (talk about interference of the government in one's personal life!). There is no way around our view of the world being incompatible. I also have a strong emotional feeling about it, because people who are anti-choice often are the same people who are trying to push planned parenthood and other women's health clinics out of business or out of their states. These clinics don't just provide abortions. They also provide gynecological healthcare services to low income women and yes, birth control. So the same people who say they are pro "babies", are by their actions when a low income woman gets pregnant, increases the danger and decreases the health and positive outcomes of the woman and the fetus during pregnancy. Which I find horrible and hypocritical.

I think that I can be friends with anyone who is willing to discuss things reasonably.  We don't have to agree, but we should each be able to defend our beliefs logically and to be respectful of the other person.  I would not want to be a CLOSE friend with someone who's beliefs I have moral problem with (such as an outspoken racist) but I could still be friends with most of them.  (They might not want to be friends with me after I challenge the racism a few times)

There are some beliefs that are a challenge because there really isn't much (if any) middle ground.  On abortion, you either want to restrict the rights of women to do what they want with their bodies OR you think it's OK to kill babies.  There really isn't a middle ground.  The best we can do is try to understand that the other side DOES have logical reasons for their beliefs IF you start with their initial belief.  For example: Pro-Choice people typically either believe that before delivery it's a fetus and therefore not murder or they believe killing a baby is OK for the greater good.  Pro-Life people believe that an unborn baby is a human being and is worth as much as you or me.  PartGypsy and I disagree on this particular discussion.  But, I would still be willing to discuss, be civil and probably be friends if we were to ever meet.  It's very unlikely that either of us would change our minds but it is helpful to understand the logic and empathy of the other person. 

PartGypsy did an excellent job of laying out her reasons for being pro-choice above.  She points out some very real challenges that sometimes those of us on the pro-life side don't do a good enough job recognizing and helping with.  I would like to point out that not all pro-life people are hypocrites.  Most of the pro-life people I know are very sympathetic to the challenges of pregnant women and many donate their time and/or money to organizations that help them.  They also DO NOT see women as 2nd class citizens.  They just can't get on board with what they see as killing an innocent human being.  Because planned parenthood supports abortion as well as some beneficial things, most pro-life people will not support them.  They would be very willing to support other organizations that provide many of the same services. 

bacchi

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #483 on: June 22, 2020, 12:56:49 PM »
Edit to say: English is not and never has been a perfectly-precise language. Neither is any other natural language. Nor is it static, the meanings of words have always changed over time. I see nothing special or unique about this situation to justify the overall levels of consternation about it.

One can similarly say the same about creating a new word. :)

There's nothing sacred about using a currently existing word. It's all a matter of which word people decide to use and which word becomes popular.

It's not unheard of, after all, because latinx activists popularized their new gender neutral word. The term "nonbinary" is fairly new, too. It came from a different field -- computer science -- but we know when we're talking about computer chips or people.

Kris

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #484 on: June 22, 2020, 01:08:47 PM »
I am late coming onto the scene. For the original question I would say "it depends". I might disagree with someone about various poltical issues  (how much taxation is fair, how much military do we need etc) and if it was a matter of degree, but not absolutes and they defended their reasoning, I would be OK with it. On other matters (which has been recently discussed, abortion) as well as whether climate change is real or not, I find those people very inflexible. In part because their belief stems from dogma or religious beliefs, which I don't feel has a place in what rights people should have in this society, where we have freedom of religion, and freedom from religion. In those cases I have found it is nonproductive to engage those people because they aren't going to listen to what I have to say, either. I feel my opinion of abortion is hard-won. I was born a female, had to deal with all the stuff females have to, have had periods for x decades, have had near misses, know people who have had abortions (none whom regretted it) have known people who decided to keep the pregnancy and either give up for adoption or keep. It's not pro abortion. It is pro-CHOICE. That the choice to keep or terminate the pregnancy is the person who is bearing the pregnancy. If you strip away that right to a choice, or the right to birth control from a woman, you are OK with half the population being a 2nd class citizen, having less rights over her own body and bodily integrity than the other half (talk about interference of the government in one's personal life!). There is no way around our view of the world being incompatible. I also have a strong emotional feeling about it, because people who are anti-choice often are the same people who are trying to push planned parenthood and other women's health clinics out of business or out of their states. These clinics don't just provide abortions. They also provide gynecological healthcare services to low income women and yes, birth control. So the same people who say they are pro "babies", are by their actions when a low income woman gets pregnant, increases the danger and decreases the health and positive outcomes of the woman and the fetus during pregnancy. Which I find horrible and hypocritical.

I think that I can be friends with anyone who is willing to discuss things reasonably.  We don't have to agree, but we should each be able to defend our beliefs logically and to be respectful of the other person.  I would not want to be a CLOSE friend with someone who's beliefs I have moral problem with (such as an outspoken racist) but I could still be friends with most of them.  (They might not want to be friends with me after I challenge the racism a few times)

There are some beliefs that are a challenge because there really isn't much (if any) middle ground.  On abortion, you either want to restrict the rights of women to do what they want with their bodies OR you think it's OK to kill babies.  There really isn't a middle ground.  The best we can do is try to understand that the other side DOES have logical reasons for their beliefs IF you start with their initial belief.  For example: Pro-Choice people typically either believe that before delivery it's a fetus and therefore not murder or they believe killing a baby is OK for the greater good.  Pro-Life people believe that an unborn baby is a human being and is worth as much as you or me.  PartGypsy and I disagree on this particular discussion.  But, I would still be willing to discuss, be civil and probably be friends if we were to ever meet.  It's very unlikely that either of us would change our minds but it is helpful to understand the logic and empathy of the other person. 

PartGypsy did an excellent job of laying out her reasons for being pro-choice above.  She points out some very real challenges that sometimes those of us on the pro-life side don't do a good enough job recognizing and helping with.  I would like to point out that not all pro-life people are hypocrites.  Most of the pro-life people I know are very sympathetic to the challenges of pregnant women and many donate their time and/or money to organizations that help them.  They also DO NOT see women as 2nd class citizens.  They just can't get on board with what they see as killing an innocent human being.  Because planned parenthood supports abortion as well as some beneficial things, most pro-life people will not support them.  They would be very willing to support other organizations that provide many of the same services.

Sorry, I just have to point out your very erroneous description of what pro-choice people believe. It’s almost comically offensive.

sui generis

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #485 on: June 22, 2020, 01:21:12 PM »
I am late coming onto the scene. For the original question I would say "it depends". I might disagree with someone about various poltical issues  (how much taxation is fair, how much military do we need etc) and if it was a matter of degree, but not absolutes and they defended their reasoning, I would be OK with it. On other matters (which has been recently discussed, abortion) as well as whether climate change is real or not, I find those people very inflexible. In part because their belief stems from dogma or religious beliefs, which I don't feel has a place in what rights people should have in this society, where we have freedom of religion, and freedom from religion. In those cases I have found it is nonproductive to engage those people because they aren't going to listen to what I have to say, either. I feel my opinion of abortion is hard-won. I was born a female, had to deal with all the stuff females have to, have had periods for x decades, have had near misses, know people who have had abortions (none whom regretted it) have known people who decided to keep the pregnancy and either give up for adoption or keep. It's not pro abortion. It is pro-CHOICE. That the choice to keep or terminate the pregnancy is the person who is bearing the pregnancy. If you strip away that right to a choice, or the right to birth control from a woman, you are OK with half the population being a 2nd class citizen, having less rights over her own body and bodily integrity than the other half (talk about interference of the government in one's personal life!). There is no way around our view of the world being incompatible. I also have a strong emotional feeling about it, because people who are anti-choice often are the same people who are trying to push planned parenthood and other women's health clinics out of business or out of their states. These clinics don't just provide abortions. They also provide gynecological healthcare services to low income women and yes, birth control. So the same people who say they are pro "babies", are by their actions when a low income woman gets pregnant, increases the danger and decreases the health and positive outcomes of the woman and the fetus during pregnancy. Which I find horrible and hypocritical.

I think that I can be friends with anyone who is willing to discuss things reasonably.  We don't have to agree, but we should each be able to defend our beliefs logically and to be respectful of the other person.  I would not want to be a CLOSE friend with someone who's beliefs I have moral problem with (such as an outspoken racist) but I could still be friends with most of them.  (They might not want to be friends with me after I challenge the racism a few times)

There are some beliefs that are a challenge because there really isn't much (if any) middle ground.  On abortion, you either want to restrict the rights of women to do what they want with their bodies OR you think it's OK to kill babies.  There really isn't a middle ground.  The best we can do is try to understand that the other side DOES have logical reasons for their beliefs IF you start with their initial belief.  For example: Pro-Choice people typically either believe that before delivery it's a fetus and therefore not murder or they believe killing a baby is OK for the greater good.  Pro-Life people believe that an unborn baby is a human being and is worth as much as you or me.  PartGypsy and I disagree on this particular discussion.  But, I would still be willing to discuss, be civil and probably be friends if we were to ever meet.  It's very unlikely that either of us would change our minds but it is helpful to understand the logic and empathy of the other person. 

PartGypsy did an excellent job of laying out her reasons for being pro-choice above.  She points out some very real challenges that sometimes those of us on the pro-life side don't do a good enough job recognizing and helping with.  I would like to point out that not all pro-life people are hypocrites.  Most of the pro-life people I know are very sympathetic to the challenges of pregnant women and many donate their time and/or money to organizations that help them.  They also DO NOT see women as 2nd class citizens.  They just can't get on board with what they see as killing an innocent human being.  Because planned parenthood supports abortion as well as some beneficial things, most pro-life people will not support them.  They would be very willing to support other organizations that provide many of the same services.

Sorry, I just have to point out your very erroneous description of what pro-choice people believe. It’s almost comically offensive.

Thousand times this. To say pro choice people think it's ok to kill babies is like saying our entire society thinks murder is ok, just because *under certain circumstances* we do not criminalize killing another human.

I mean, seriously.

ericrugiero

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #486 on: June 22, 2020, 01:30:30 PM »
I am late coming onto the scene. For the original question I would say "it depends". I might disagree with someone about various poltical issues  (how much taxation is fair, how much military do we need etc) and if it was a matter of degree, but not absolutes and they defended their reasoning, I would be OK with it. On other matters (which has been recently discussed, abortion) as well as whether climate change is real or not, I find those people very inflexible. In part because their belief stems from dogma or religious beliefs, which I don't feel has a place in what rights people should have in this society, where we have freedom of religion, and freedom from religion. In those cases I have found it is nonproductive to engage those people because they aren't going to listen to what I have to say, either. I feel my opinion of abortion is hard-won. I was born a female, had to deal with all the stuff females have to, have had periods for x decades, have had near misses, know people who have had abortions (none whom regretted it) have known people who decided to keep the pregnancy and either give up for adoption or keep. It's not pro abortion. It is pro-CHOICE. That the choice to keep or terminate the pregnancy is the person who is bearing the pregnancy. If you strip away that right to a choice, or the right to birth control from a woman, you are OK with half the population being a 2nd class citizen, having less rights over her own body and bodily integrity than the other half (talk about interference of the government in one's personal life!). There is no way around our view of the world being incompatible. I also have a strong emotional feeling about it, because people who are anti-choice often are the same people who are trying to push planned parenthood and other women's health clinics out of business or out of their states. These clinics don't just provide abortions. They also provide gynecological healthcare services to low income women and yes, birth control. So the same people who say they are pro "babies", are by their actions when a low income woman gets pregnant, increases the danger and decreases the health and positive outcomes of the woman and the fetus during pregnancy. Which I find horrible and hypocritical.

I think that I can be friends with anyone who is willing to discuss things reasonably.  We don't have to agree, but we should each be able to defend our beliefs logically and to be respectful of the other person.  I would not want to be a CLOSE friend with someone who's beliefs I have moral problem with (such as an outspoken racist) but I could still be friends with most of them.  (They might not want to be friends with me after I challenge the racism a few times)

There are some beliefs that are a challenge because there really isn't much (if any) middle ground.  On abortion, you either want to restrict the rights of women to do what they want with their bodies OR you think it's OK to kill babies.  There really isn't a middle ground.  The best we can do is try to understand that the other side DOES have logical reasons for their beliefs IF you start with their initial belief.  For example: Pro-Choice people typically either believe that before delivery it's a fetus and therefore not murder or they believe killing a baby is OK for the greater good.  Pro-Life people believe that an unborn baby is a human being and is worth as much as you or me.  PartGypsy and I disagree on this particular discussion.  But, I would still be willing to discuss, be civil and probably be friends if we were to ever meet.  It's very unlikely that either of us would change our minds but it is helpful to understand the logic and empathy of the other person. 

PartGypsy did an excellent job of laying out her reasons for being pro-choice above.  She points out some very real challenges that sometimes those of us on the pro-life side don't do a good enough job recognizing and helping with.  I would like to point out that not all pro-life people are hypocrites.  Most of the pro-life people I know are very sympathetic to the challenges of pregnant women and many donate their time and/or money to organizations that help them.  They also DO NOT see women as 2nd class citizens.  They just can't get on board with what they see as killing an innocent human being.  Because planned parenthood supports abortion as well as some beneficial things, most pro-life people will not support them.  They would be very willing to support other organizations that provide many of the same services.

Sorry, I just have to point out your very erroneous description of what pro-choice people believe. It’s almost comically offensive.

Thousand times this. To say pro choice people think it's ok to kill babies is like saying our entire society thinks murder is ok, just because *under certain circumstances* we do not criminalize killing another human.

I mean, seriously.

Read it again.  My comment says "Pro-Choice people typically either believe that before delivery it's a fetus and therefore not murder or they believe killing a baby is OK for the greater good".  The OR is important. I think (correct me it I'm wrong) that most are in the first camp. 
« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 01:32:55 PM by ericrugiero »

Kris

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #487 on: June 22, 2020, 01:36:06 PM »
I am late coming onto the scene. For the original question I would say "it depends". I might disagree with someone about various poltical issues  (how much taxation is fair, how much military do we need etc) and if it was a matter of degree, but not absolutes and they defended their reasoning, I would be OK with it. On other matters (which has been recently discussed, abortion) as well as whether climate change is real or not, I find those people very inflexible. In part because their belief stems from dogma or religious beliefs, which I don't feel has a place in what rights people should have in this society, where we have freedom of religion, and freedom from religion. In those cases I have found it is nonproductive to engage those people because they aren't going to listen to what I have to say, either. I feel my opinion of abortion is hard-won. I was born a female, had to deal with all the stuff females have to, have had periods for x decades, have had near misses, know people who have had abortions (none whom regretted it) have known people who decided to keep the pregnancy and either give up for adoption or keep. It's not pro abortion. It is pro-CHOICE. That the choice to keep or terminate the pregnancy is the person who is bearing the pregnancy. If you strip away that right to a choice, or the right to birth control from a woman, you are OK with half the population being a 2nd class citizen, having less rights over her own body and bodily integrity than the other half (talk about interference of the government in one's personal life!). There is no way around our view of the world being incompatible. I also have a strong emotional feeling about it, because people who are anti-choice often are the same people who are trying to push planned parenthood and other women's health clinics out of business or out of their states. These clinics don't just provide abortions. They also provide gynecological healthcare services to low income women and yes, birth control. So the same people who say they are pro "babies", are by their actions when a low income woman gets pregnant, increases the danger and decreases the health and positive outcomes of the woman and the fetus during pregnancy. Which I find horrible and hypocritical.

I think that I can be friends with anyone who is willing to discuss things reasonably.  We don't have to agree, but we should each be able to defend our beliefs logically and to be respectful of the other person.  I would not want to be a CLOSE friend with someone who's beliefs I have moral problem with (such as an outspoken racist) but I could still be friends with most of them.  (They might not want to be friends with me after I challenge the racism a few times)

There are some beliefs that are a challenge because there really isn't much (if any) middle ground.  On abortion, you either want to restrict the rights of women to do what they want with their bodies OR you think it's OK to kill babies.  There really isn't a middle ground.  The best we can do is try to understand that the other side DOES have logical reasons for their beliefs IF you start with their initial belief.  For example: Pro-Choice people typically either believe that before delivery it's a fetus and therefore not murder or they believe killing a baby is OK for the greater good.  Pro-Life people believe that an unborn baby is a human being and is worth as much as you or me.  PartGypsy and I disagree on this particular discussion.  But, I would still be willing to discuss, be civil and probably be friends if we were to ever meet.  It's very unlikely that either of us would change our minds but it is helpful to understand the logic and empathy of the other person. 

PartGypsy did an excellent job of laying out her reasons for being pro-choice above.  She points out some very real challenges that sometimes those of us on the pro-life side don't do a good enough job recognizing and helping with.  I would like to point out that not all pro-life people are hypocrites.  Most of the pro-life people I know are very sympathetic to the challenges of pregnant women and many donate their time and/or money to organizations that help them.  They also DO NOT see women as 2nd class citizens.  They just can't get on board with what they see as killing an innocent human being.  Because planned parenthood supports abortion as well as some beneficial things, most pro-life people will not support them.  They would be very willing to support other organizations that provide many of the same services.

Sorry, I just have to point out your very erroneous description of what pro-choice people believe. It’s almost comically offensive.

Thousand times this. To say pro choice people think it's ok to kill babies is like saying our entire society thinks murder is ok, just because *under certain circumstances* we do not criminalize killing another human.

I mean, seriously.

Read it again.  My comment says "Pro-Choice people typically either believe that before delivery it's a fetus and therefore not murder or they believe killing a baby is OK for the greater good".  The OR is important. I think (correct me it I'm wrong) that most are in the first camp.

Lol. I can’t believe you repeated it.

You’re wrong.

ericrugiero

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #488 on: June 22, 2020, 01:39:18 PM »
I am late coming onto the scene. For the original question I would say "it depends". I might disagree with someone about various poltical issues  (how much taxation is fair, how much military do we need etc) and if it was a matter of degree, but not absolutes and they defended their reasoning, I would be OK with it. On other matters (which has been recently discussed, abortion) as well as whether climate change is real or not, I find those people very inflexible. In part because their belief stems from dogma or religious beliefs, which I don't feel has a place in what rights people should have in this society, where we have freedom of religion, and freedom from religion. In those cases I have found it is nonproductive to engage those people because they aren't going to listen to what I have to say, either. I feel my opinion of abortion is hard-won. I was born a female, had to deal with all the stuff females have to, have had periods for x decades, have had near misses, know people who have had abortions (none whom regretted it) have known people who decided to keep the pregnancy and either give up for adoption or keep. It's not pro abortion. It is pro-CHOICE. That the choice to keep or terminate the pregnancy is the person who is bearing the pregnancy. If you strip away that right to a choice, or the right to birth control from a woman, you are OK with half the population being a 2nd class citizen, having less rights over her own body and bodily integrity than the other half (talk about interference of the government in one's personal life!). There is no way around our view of the world being incompatible. I also have a strong emotional feeling about it, because people who are anti-choice often are the same people who are trying to push planned parenthood and other women's health clinics out of business or out of their states. These clinics don't just provide abortions. They also provide gynecological healthcare services to low income women and yes, birth control. So the same people who say they are pro "babies", are by their actions when a low income woman gets pregnant, increases the danger and decreases the health and positive outcomes of the woman and the fetus during pregnancy. Which I find horrible and hypocritical.

I think that I can be friends with anyone who is willing to discuss things reasonably.  We don't have to agree, but we should each be able to defend our beliefs logically and to be respectful of the other person.  I would not want to be a CLOSE friend with someone who's beliefs I have moral problem with (such as an outspoken racist) but I could still be friends with most of them.  (They might not want to be friends with me after I challenge the racism a few times)

There are some beliefs that are a challenge because there really isn't much (if any) middle ground.  On abortion, you either want to restrict the rights of women to do what they want with their bodies OR you think it's OK to kill babies.  There really isn't a middle ground.  The best we can do is try to understand that the other side DOES have logical reasons for their beliefs IF you start with their initial belief.  For example: Pro-Choice people typically either believe that before delivery it's a fetus and therefore not murder or they believe killing a baby is OK for the greater good.  Pro-Life people believe that an unborn baby is a human being and is worth as much as you or me.  PartGypsy and I disagree on this particular discussion.  But, I would still be willing to discuss, be civil and probably be friends if we were to ever meet.  It's very unlikely that either of us would change our minds but it is helpful to understand the logic and empathy of the other person. 

PartGypsy did an excellent job of laying out her reasons for being pro-choice above.  She points out some very real challenges that sometimes those of us on the pro-life side don't do a good enough job recognizing and helping with.  I would like to point out that not all pro-life people are hypocrites.  Most of the pro-life people I know are very sympathetic to the challenges of pregnant women and many donate their time and/or money to organizations that help them.  They also DO NOT see women as 2nd class citizens.  They just can't get on board with what they see as killing an innocent human being.  Because planned parenthood supports abortion as well as some beneficial things, most pro-life people will not support them.  They would be very willing to support other organizations that provide many of the same services.

Sorry, I just have to point out your very erroneous description of what pro-choice people believe. It’s almost comically offensive.

Thousand times this. To say pro choice people think it's ok to kill babies is like saying our entire society thinks murder is ok, just because *under certain circumstances* we do not criminalize killing another human.

I mean, seriously.

Read it again.  My comment says "Pro-Choice people typically either believe that before delivery it's a fetus and therefore not murder or they believe killing a baby is OK for the greater good".  The OR is important. I think (correct me it I'm wrong) that most are in the first camp.

Lol. I can’t believe you repeated it.

You’re wrong.

OK.  I'd like to learn.  How would you describe it? 

Wrenchturner

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #489 on: June 22, 2020, 01:47:46 PM »
Why does the word "latinx" need to exist?  Isn't "latin" gender neutral vs. Latino/Latina?

Is it because it's confusing to call someone latin if they are Colombian vs an early inhabitant of Rome?

MudPuppy

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #490 on: June 22, 2020, 01:55:13 PM »
Yep

ysette9

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #491 on: June 22, 2020, 02:26:27 PM »
I am late coming onto the scene. For the original question I would say "it depends". I might disagree with someone about various poltical issues  (how much taxation is fair, how much military do we need etc) and if it was a matter of degree, but not absolutes and they defended their reasoning, I would be OK with it. On other matters (which has been recently discussed, abortion) as well as whether climate change is real or not, I find those people very inflexible. In part because their belief stems from dogma or religious beliefs, which I don't feel has a place in what rights people should have in this society, where we have freedom of religion, and freedom from religion. In those cases I have found it is nonproductive to engage those people because they aren't going to listen to what I have to say, either. I feel my opinion of abortion is hard-won. I was born a female, had to deal with all the stuff females have to, have had periods for x decades, have had near misses, know people who have had abortions (none whom regretted it) have known people who decided to keep the pregnancy and either give up for adoption or keep. It's not pro abortion. It is pro-CHOICE. That the choice to keep or terminate the pregnancy is the person who is bearing the pregnancy. If you strip away that right to a choice, or the right to birth control from a woman, you are OK with half the population being a 2nd class citizen, having less rights over her own body and bodily integrity than the other half (talk about interference of the government in one's personal life!). There is no way around our view of the world being incompatible. I also have a strong emotional feeling about it, because people who are anti-choice often are the same people who are trying to push planned parenthood and other women's health clinics out of business or out of their states. These clinics don't just provide abortions. They also provide gynecological healthcare services to low income women and yes, birth control. So the same people who say they are pro "babies", are by their actions when a low income woman gets pregnant, increases the danger and decreases the health and positive outcomes of the woman and the fetus during pregnancy. Which I find horrible and hypocritical.

I think that I can be friends with anyone who is willing to discuss things reasonably.  We don't have to agree, but we should each be able to defend our beliefs logically and to be respectful of the other person.  I would not want to be a CLOSE friend with someone who's beliefs I have moral problem with (such as an outspoken racist) but I could still be friends with most of them.  (They might not want to be friends with me after I challenge the racism a few times)

There are some beliefs that are a challenge because there really isn't much (if any) middle ground.  On abortion, you either want to restrict the rights of women to do what they want with their bodies OR you think it's OK to kill babies.  There really isn't a middle ground.  The best we can do is try to understand that the other side DOES have logical reasons for their beliefs IF you start with their initial belief.  For example: Pro-Choice people typically either believe that before delivery it's a fetus and therefore not murder or they believe killing a baby is OK for the greater good.  Pro-Life people believe that an unborn baby is a human being and is worth as much as you or me.  PartGypsy and I disagree on this particular discussion.  But, I would still be willing to discuss, be civil and probably be friends if we were to ever meet.  It's very unlikely that either of us would change our minds but it is helpful to understand the logic and empathy of the other person. 

PartGypsy did an excellent job of laying out her reasons for being pro-choice above.  She points out some very real challenges that sometimes those of us on the pro-life side don't do a good enough job recognizing and helping with.  I would like to point out that not all pro-life people are hypocrites.  Most of the pro-life people I know are very sympathetic to the challenges of pregnant women and many donate their time and/or money to organizations that help them.  They also DO NOT see women as 2nd class citizens.  They just can't get on board with what they see as killing an innocent human being.  Because planned parenthood supports abortion as well as some beneficial things, most pro-life people will not support them.  They would be very willing to support other organizations that provide many of the same services.

Sorry, I just have to point out your very erroneous description of what pro-choice people believe. It’s almost comically offensive.

Thousand times this. To say pro choice people think it's ok to kill babies is like saying our entire society thinks murder is ok, just because *under certain circumstances* we do not criminalize killing another human.

I mean, seriously.

Read it again.  My comment says "Pro-Choice people typically either believe that before delivery it's a fetus and therefore not murder or they believe killing a baby is OK for the greater good".  The OR is important. I think (correct me it I'm wrong) that most are in the first camp.

Lol. I can’t believe you repeated it.

You’re wrong.

OK.  I'd like to learn.  How would you describe it?
I can’t speak for all pro-choice people but here is my stance.

Abortion should ideally be safe, legal, and rare. Rare, because we should live in a society that values women and their autonomy, making safe and easy access to all medical care universal and affordable. So you should be able to avoid a lot of unwanted pregnancies in the first place (many other countries do a better job of this than the US).

Pro-choice rests on the notion that women are full-fledged first class humans with full human rights, first and foremost of which is bodily autonomy. Personally I see a clear difference between a fetus that cannot survive on its own and one that can. I think it is perfectly reasonable to have debates over where to draw a line on when to allow and not allow abortion as pregnancy progresses; as discussed above, this is mostly a corner case used to inflame tempers as late-term abortions are very rare and pretty much exclusively the realm of grave birth defects. I think drawing the line at viability is good, though as the mother of preemies I know that the current definition of 24 weeks is scary, scary early if you actually care about the health and welfare of the person born.

I agree that yes, i believe that prior to some point it is a fetus, not a baby. I disagree fully with your implication that anytime prior to delivery is ok. No one in the pro-choice camp would agree with your second posit, that killing a baby is ok for the greater good.

ctuser1

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #492 on: June 22, 2020, 02:37:57 PM »
Read it again.  My comment says "Pro-Choice people typically either believe that before delivery it's a fetus and therefore not murder or they believe killing a baby is OK for the greater good".  The OR is important. I think (correct me it I'm wrong) that most are in the first camp.

Lol. I can’t believe you repeated it.

You’re wrong.

OK.  I'd like to learn.  How would you describe it?

Your question assumes that the pro-choice people subscribes to the BS that "life begins at conception". That is a catholic/evangelical speciality that even the church before 19th century did not uniformly subscribe to (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beginning_of_human_personhood). Last I checked, US was not defined as a Catholic or Evangelical country in it's constitution.

It's like asking "Why are Trump Supporters Nazis?"

Most pro-choice people believes in basic human rights and do not like to meddle into other people's lives based on their own unproven beliefs.

If I was going to describe the so-called "pro-life"s the way you described pro-choice people, I'd say "the so-called pro-life people does not consider human rights to be very important and would like to trample the rights of and commit violence against other people with an aim towards propagating their faith that has no basis in facts or reality".

fair?

P.S. You are right that "There are some beliefs that are a challenge because there really isn't much (if any) middle ground". People who would trample on other people's human rights to further their unproven faith (how is "terrorism" defined again?) are not befriend-able.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 02:52:30 PM by ctuser1 »

sherr

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #493 on: June 22, 2020, 02:42:21 PM »
Sorry, I just have to point out your very erroneous description of what pro-choice people believe. It’s almost comically offensive.

Thousand times this. To say pro choice people think it's ok to kill babies is like saying our entire society thinks murder is ok, just because *under certain circumstances* we do not criminalize killing another human.

I mean, seriously.

Read it again.  My comment says "Pro-Choice people typically either believe that before delivery it's a fetus and therefore not murder or they believe killing a baby is OK for the greater good".  The OR is important. I think (correct me it I'm wrong) that most are in the first camp.

Lol. I can’t believe you repeated it.

You’re wrong.

OK.  I'd like to learn.  How would you describe it?

Siiigh.

1) "Pro-Choice people typically either believe that before delivery it's a fetus and therefore not murder."
Well first of all it is a fetus, that's not a "belief" it's a fact. Or perhaps its a zygote if it's not yet a fetus. What it's not is a "baby", not by any dictionary definition I've ever seen, nor by common usage outside of the pro-lifer side when specifically talking about abortion.

And regardless it doesn't follow that killing it would be "murder". Murder is a legal designation for an unlawful premeditated killing. Abortion is definitely not murder in the US. Maybe you'd like it to be, but factually it's not.

But to finally wind our way down to addressing the meat of what you're saying, you are claiming that pro-choicers are okay with abortion because they view a fetus as a qualitatively different thing than a baby.

A more correct way of viewing this is to say that pro-choicers understand development of a fetus to be a spectrum, ranging all the way from a single cell with no brain all the way up to something that is characteristically indistinguishable from a 1-minute-old baby. Which is factually true, and indeed something that pro-choicers generally acknowledge. And you will indeed find people who are more morally okay with ending the life of a fetus at the brainless stage than you are at the negative-one-minute-old stage, because it is a spectrum. So I suppose that is part of it.

2) "or they believe killing a baby is OK for the greater good"

What greater good are we even talking about here? Life/health of the mother? Life/health of the fetus with soon-fatal deformities? Greater good of a rape victim to not be forced to bear her rapist's child for 9 months? Greater good of society to not have unwanted babies born homes where they can't / wont be taken care of? All of the above?

I suppose regardless you will in fact find people who do believe that abortion is the lesser of those two evils. But it's obviously not that they "believe that killing a baby is OK for the greater good", because they don't believe that for already-born babies, do they?

The huge reason that you completely miss here is that of the woman's right to self-determination / body autonomy. In no other situation do we ever tell a human that they have to donate blood, or they must donate a kidney, or they are required to get a vaccine. The closest thing I can think of is schools requiring kids to be vaccinated if they want to attend there, but that's very very different from requiring it flat out. Never, even if it means other people will definitely die.

So the more correct way to phrase this is as a conflict of rights. Fetuses ideally would have the right to life, sure. But also women have the right to body autonomy, which is something so critical - so essential to being human - that we even grant it to corpses that didn't want to be organ donors, even if people die as a result. And when those two rights conflict what is to be done? Pro-choicers say that it's unfortunate, undesirable, sad, but that the woman's body autonomy must take precedence, just as it would in every similar situation. To do anything else would be to strip her of something essential to being a human and reduce her to nothing more than a breeding sow.

There is no pro-abortion side. There is a pro-choice side, because the ability to choose is the essential part. The ability to choose for themselves whether they want to bear their rapist's child, or whatever. No one would be upset if everyone chose to not abort, perhaps because of all the actual support they received from their pro-life friends.

Finally let's loop back around to talking about your language. I have never met an ardent pro-lifer who couldn't help but keep on using incorrect, dishonest, and intentionally-incendiary language, like "baby", "murder", and "genocide" (you have not used this one yet, I know). Why is that? Why - in this post where your ostensible point was "try to understand the other side at least so you can at least have empathy with their logic" - did you simultaneously display a complete and utter lack of understanding and empathy with the other side? Why the explicit appeals to emotion in a post that is ostensibly talking about logical arguments?

Everyone understands why pro-lifers are pro-life. It's not complicated. But that seems to be almost entirely one-sided. Virtually no pro-lifers seem to have made an honest effort to understand why pro-choicers are pro-choice.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 02:55:20 PM by sherr »

LWYRUP

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #494 on: June 22, 2020, 02:55:48 PM »

I just listened to a really great podcast on this exact subject. 

A black musician who lives very near me convinced 200 KKK members to give up their robes, and basically shut down the KKK in my state, by befriending them. 

https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGTQ0Wj6yIg

So maybe the answer is yes, and maybe we even have a moral duty to do so, but we need to respectfully speak the truth at all times?  Make it clear where you stand and why, but do it from a place that shows you care about them as a person and want to at least try to understand why they feel how they do? 

If you are just friends and then try to turn a blind eye towards bad behavior, that obviously does not seem to work.  But if you just confront hate with hate, or if everyone walls off into their own (political, religious, ethnic, etc.) tribe, that also does not seem to work. 

Respectful dialogue, based on treating everyone how you would like to be treated (even if they aren't doing the same to you), based on a well-formed conscience and well-educated mind and courage to stand behind your convictions -- that seems like the path forward. 

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #495 on: June 22, 2020, 05:58:55 PM »

I just listened to a really great podcast on this exact subject. 

A black musician who lives very near me convinced 200 KKK members to give up their robes, and basically shut down the KKK in my state, by befriending them. 

https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGTQ0Wj6yIg

So maybe the answer is yes, and maybe we even have a moral duty to do so, but we need to respectfully speak the truth at all times?  Make it clear where you stand and why, but do it from a place that shows you care about them as a person and want to at least try to understand why they feel how they do? 

If you are just friends and then try to turn a blind eye towards bad behavior, that obviously does not seem to work.  But if you just confront hate with hate, or if everyone walls off into their own (political, religious, ethnic, etc.) tribe, that also does not seem to work. 

Respectful dialogue, based on treating everyone how you would like to be treated (even if they aren't doing the same to you), based on a well-formed conscience and well-educated mind and courage to stand behind your convictions -- that seems like the path forward.

Thanks for sharing that really cool story. I’d love to get his book, but the price on Amazon was well over $1000.00. Guess I’ll have to see about getting a copy from the library.

I view this as less a duty and more as an opportunity. Wow. What an opportunity for someone of my persuasion.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #496 on: June 22, 2020, 06:49:17 PM »

I just listened to a really great podcast on this exact subject. 

A black musician who lives very near me convinced 200 KKK members to give up their robes, and basically shut down the KKK in my state, by befriending them. 

https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGTQ0Wj6yIg

So maybe the answer is yes, and maybe we even have a moral duty to do so, but we need to respectfully speak the truth at all times?  Make it clear where you stand and why, but do it from a place that shows you care about them as a person and want to at least try to understand why they feel how they do? 

If you are just friends and then try to turn a blind eye towards bad behavior, that obviously does not seem to work.  But if you just confront hate with hate, or if everyone walls off into their own (political, religious, ethnic, etc.) tribe, that also does not seem to work. 

Respectful dialogue, based on treating everyone how you would like to be treated (even if they aren't doing the same to you), based on a well-formed conscience and well-educated mind and courage to stand behind your convictions -- that seems like the path forward.

Thanks for sharing that really cool story. I’d love to get his book, but the price on Amazon was well over $1000.00. Guess I’ll have to see about getting a copy from the library.

I view this as less a duty and more as an opportunity. Wow. What an opportunity for someone of my persuasion.

It went mostly unsaid in the Rogan podcast, but I found Daryl to be uniquely strong, open minded and kind.  And he didn't act like it was remarkable but I found his temperament in the context of those stories to be exceptional.  We could all learn from him.

The recent Bret Weinstein episode was quite good too.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #497 on: June 22, 2020, 08:12:26 PM »

There is no pro-abortion side. There is a pro-choice side, because the ability to choose is the essential part. The ability to choose for themselves whether they want to bear their rapist's child, or whatever. No one would be upset if everyone chose to not abort, perhaps because of all the actual support they received from their pro-life friends.

I'm pro-abortion. I've said it before, I'm all for killing foetuses if the mother makes that choice and there's some subjectively reasonable justification for the choice. Heck, I'd even be okay with killing infants if there's a very huge justification.

I don't relish abortions but I would be upset if everyone chose to not abort, because that's completely unnatural. People make mistakes all the time and we should do everything we can to (1) de-stigmatise abortion, (2) facilitate it (ban abortion protests, make it as cheap/easy as possible) and (3) encourage it (via cash payments for pre- and post-counselling etc, to make sure that no one's ethical choice is constrained by financial or practical constraints.

I'm not sure why so many "pro-choice" people try to pussy foot around it. I support abortion because I think in most cases where the mother chooses it, it's for the greater good. I also don't draw an absolute line at birth. Go read some of Peter Singer's philosophy if you want to explore the difficult ethical conundrums in more detail.

It does us no good to simply avoid difficult ethical questions by taking a "pure" stance that then makes it harder in practice for people in exactly those difficult situations to find self-compassion and understanding.

Calling it "pro-choice" still leads to guilt for mothers who exercise that choice. I'm out, I'm proud, I'm fucking pro-abortion.

ysette9

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #498 on: June 22, 2020, 08:26:55 PM »

There is no pro-abortion side. There is a pro-choice side, because the ability to choose is the essential part. The ability to choose for themselves whether they want to bear their rapist's child, or whatever. No one would be upset if everyone chose to not abort, perhaps because of all the actual support they received from their pro-life friends.

I'm pro-abortion. I've said it before, I'm all for killing foetuses if the mother makes that choice and there's some subjectively reasonable justification for the choice. Heck, I'd even be okay with killing infants if there's a very huge justification.

I don't relish abortions but I would be upset if everyone chose to not abort, because that's completely unnatural. People make mistakes all the time and we should do everything we can to (1) de-stigmatise abortion, (2) facilitate it (ban abortion protests, make it as cheap/easy as possible) and (3) encourage it (via cash payments for pre- and post-counselling etc, to make sure that no one's ethical choice is constrained by financial or practical constraints.

I'm not sure why so many "pro-choice" people try to pussy foot around it. I support abortion because I think in most cases where the mother chooses it, it's for the greater good. I also don't draw an absolute line at birth. Go read some of Peter Singer's philosophy if you want to explore the difficult ethical conundrums in more detail.

It does us no good to simply avoid difficult ethical questions by taking a "pure" stance that then makes it harder in practice for people in exactly those difficult situations to find self-compassion and understanding.

Calling it "pro-choice" still leads to guilt for mothers who exercise that choice. I'm out, I'm proud, I'm fucking pro-abortion.
In a au your stance reminds me of me on another issue. I am anti-guns. I think the right to bear arms isn’t done sacred thing enshrined in the constitution, but an embarrassing aberration to be fixed, like when slavery was legal or women didn’t have the right to vote. Unfortunately I also see that the pro side is so entrenched and the NRA has done such a good job of spouting nonsense that any even slight move towards sanity is greeted with “omg, they are coming to get out guns!”. I see that me speaking an actual anti-gun stance will probably only further stoke the flames of unreason and not move us a millimeter closer to having a safer society. America is just too immature and illogical for that.

So while I won’t say I disagree with you necessarily (or agree either), I fear your position would be take by the fanatics as proof that those trying to push America to be slightly less backwards are actually all immoral baby killers in disguise. (Who want to take your guns while they are at it.)

ctuser1

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Re: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?
« Reply #499 on: June 22, 2020, 08:58:08 PM »
I'm pro-abortion. I've said it before, I'm all for killing foetuses if the mother makes that choice and there's some subjectively reasonable justification for the choice. Heck, I'd even be okay with killing infants if there's a very huge justification.
You can of course speak for yourself. I am pro-choice, but anti-abortion.
I don't know if you have a child or not. FYI, I started shoving in the college fund (529) for my daughter once I had the first ultrasound of the fetus in hand, at 3 weeks. Your stance leads me to assume that you lack the life experiences necessary to understand the nuances of this issue.

I don't relish abortions but I would be upset if everyone chose to not abort, because that's completely unnatural.
If this indicated that the Homo Sapience has now evolved to become much more responsible in general, then I'd be ecstatic. So, please don't conflate your stance with those of pro-choice people.


I'm not sure why so many "pro-choice" people try to pussy foot around it. I support abortion because I think in most cases where the mother chooses it, it's for the greater good. I also don't draw an absolute line at birth. Go read some of Peter Singer's philosophy if you want to explore the difficult ethical conundrums in more detail.
Fantastic, now please keep all that knowledge and opinion to yourself. It is none of your business what the mother will choose to do with her body and what ethics/religion/philosophy she will use to arrive at that. It's most definitely none of your business (unless you are the father, or your opinion is specifically asked for by the mother).

See, that was not pussyfooting. I just told you to bugger off when you thought you should poke your nose where it does not belong.

It does us no good to simply avoid difficult ethical questions by taking a "pure" stance that then makes it harder in practice for people in exactly those difficult situations to find self-compassion and understanding.

It is the mother's "difficult" ethical question! Again, anyone who has a child knows there is no fucking way to make it not difficult.

Because it is so difficult, you/some-bible-nut/society/government should shove their opinion on this matter to where the sun does not shine.

How difficult is to just bloody leave the woman in question alone!!

Calling it "pro-choice" still leads to guilt for mothers who exercise that choice.
And again, there is nothing you can do to change any of this. There are biological components to it.