Author Topic: Can you really be friends if your political beliefs are much different?  (Read 6414 times)

v8rx7guy

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Here's the caveat though. I'm gay. The night Trump was elected I felt real and genuine fear.

Why?  I'm genuinely curious what Trump did during the campaign that made you feel he was a real threat to your existence.

Maybe it when he said, "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage."?

Oh wait, that was Obama in 2008...

sui generis

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Here's the caveat though. I'm gay. The night Trump was elected I felt real and genuine fear.

Why?  I'm genuinely curious what Trump did during the campaign that made you feel he was a real threat to your existence.

Maybe it when he said, "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage."?

Oh wait, that was Obama in 2008...

Nah, it was probably when he offered to pay the legal bills for people that committed violence against non-supporters.  An indeed, as if it wasn't a coincidence, violence against people Trump and his supporters are on record against has surged.  And ya know, those poor people - I'm concerned they didn't even get their legal bills paid for like he promised!

One example: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/lgbtq-violence-trump_us_5a625035e4b002283002897b
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 10:40:05 PM by sui generis »

GreenEggs

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I have a number of friends who hold opposing views from mine.  I consider those views to be character flaws or weaknesses that they realize, but cannot admit.  I believe that deep down they are expecting God to forgive them in the end, a squeak into heaven. 

Since I realize that they are wrong, I am automatically right.  That makes me morally superior, and since they subconsciously realize that they are wrong, they also subconsciously realize that I am correct....

It's like being friends with your dog.  You can still love him, but you both know he's a butt-licking slobbery dog. 

So, I say enjoy your stupid racist, sexist, friends.  Forgive their flaws and encourage them to change and open their minds when.  Be their friend and help them grow.  If you don't, who will?  Keep it fun, let them laugh at you, and get plenty of laughs from their ways. 

However, if the relationship gets too uncomfortable it's okay to forget em'. 
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 10:51:02 PM by GreenEggs »

MonkeyJenga

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norcal and syonyk, y'all are imputing ill intent where there is none and reading things into my words that I didn't intend. During the 2016 campaign, I pushed back against people who made sweeping accusations about all voters on either side.

valsecito made an assertion about their friend's motivations, and I said I believed their assertion, that their friend doesn't support Trump because of hatred toward any particular group of people. I then questioned how he could square his personal respect for people with his support for a person who represents ill-will toward many groups. I pointed out that although many people think everyone should stop taking politics so personally, who you vote for has a direct impact on people's lives. There's a disconnect between respecting people one-on-one while disrespecting them politically. Similar to what Sam said, you may not want to harm someone, but you're not prioritizing their concerns when it comes to policy or rhetoric.

In this particular case, since their friend is not a US citizen, there's the possibility that he's mainly hearing about abortion from his religious US friends. Maybe side helpings of gay marriage, transgender bathroom usage, and prayer in schools. I have read about why evangelists love Pence (obvious) and why they're willing to excuse Trump's personal behavior, although why they focus on certain aspects of Christianity to the exclusion of others is unclear to me.

We don't need to have a debate over economic policy. valsecito included respect for poor people as an example of where their friend differs from Trump, and I was just using a couple of their examples.

valsecito - that is a tough question. People of color, confusingly enough, is generally accepted, as is minorities, even if they're not in the numerical minority. Terminology is ever-shifting. And of course it differs based on where you live, which makes it harder to agree on terminology online.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 03:54:58 AM by MonkeyJenga »

GuitarStv

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Here's the caveat though. I'm gay. The night Trump was elected I felt real and genuine fear.

Why?  I'm genuinely curious what Trump did during the campaign that made you feel he was a real threat to your existence.

Maybe it when he said, "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage."?

Oh wait, that was Obama in 2008...

Nah, it was probably when he offered to pay the legal bills for people that committed violence against non-supporters.  An indeed, as if it wasn't a coincidence, violence against people Trump and his supporters are on record against has surged.  And ya know, those poor people - I'm concerned they didn't even get their legal bills paid for like he promised!

One example: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/lgbtq-violence-trump_us_5a625035e4b002283002897b

There's also the actual anti-LGBTQ policy that his administration has supported/implemented:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43525549
http://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/365784-advocacy-group-nearly-a-third-of-trump-judicial-nominees-are-anti
https://twitter.com/chrisgeidner/status/834553755869777922
https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/10/5/16429800/trump-sessions-transgender-workers
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article136818138.html
https://thinkprogress.org/trump-rescinds-lgbtq-protections-obamacare-3f6315b0ca52/
 . . . etc.

Dabnasty

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Here's the caveat though. I'm gay. The night Trump was elected I felt real and genuine fear.

Why?  I'm genuinely curious what Trump did during the campaign that made you feel he was a real threat to your existence.

On statements specifically hateful to gay people I'm not sure I remember much from his campaign however he said and tweeted lots of things that were hateful towards immigrants, Muslims, Mexicans, and there was plenty of this going on before his campaign as well. Throughout history gay people have typically been looked down on by the same people that have these feelings towards minority races, religions, and immigrants. It's not that much of a stretch.

There's been a significant rise in the number of hate crimes in the US since the beginning of his campaign. Is Trump the one who committed those hate crimes? no. But why is it that the perpetrators of those crimes feel emboldened by his existence? Many have made reference to Trump during or after the crime was committed. So maybe it's not just liberal bias that makes people think Trump is hateful, it's also the KKK and the people who really do feel hate towards these groups that think Trump is on their side. Why do they think that?

More anecdotally I can look at people I know who support Trump. They are not well informed about what gay people deal with and have no reservations about making gay jokes or jokes about some of the other groups I've mentioned. And no, these jokes are often not just jokes. Sometimes these jokes are followed by words like "but seriously". At least one of these people thinks being gay is a choice and that people choose to be gay for the attention. Another example I can think of was while traveling in Texas I was waiting in line to get a rental car and the black man in front of me who was admittedly being a little rude was clearly upsetting the employee, who was also pretty rude, and when they were done I stepped up. The first thing the employee said to me was, "that's why I'm glad we elected Trump, he's going to take care of those people". What am I supposed to think about that exchange?

And if we're talking specifically about the worries of gay people after this election, frankly Pence may be more concerning than Trump.






Kris

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Here's the caveat though. I'm gay. The night Trump was elected I felt real and genuine fear.

Why?  I'm genuinely curious what Trump did during the campaign that made you feel he was a real threat to your existence.

Maybe it when he said, "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage."?

Oh wait, that was Obama in 2008...

Nah, it was probably when he offered to pay the legal bills for people that committed violence against non-supporters.  An indeed, as if it wasn't a coincidence, violence against people Trump and his supporters are on record against has surged.  And ya know, those poor people - I'm concerned they didn't even get their legal bills paid for like he promised!

One example: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/lgbtq-violence-trump_us_5a625035e4b002283002897b

There's also the actual anti-LGBTQ policy that his administration has supported/implemented:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43525549
http://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/365784-advocacy-group-nearly-a-third-of-trump-judicial-nominees-are-anti
https://twitter.com/chrisgeidner/status/834553755869777922
https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/10/5/16429800/trump-sessions-transgender-workers
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article136818138.html
https://thinkprogress.org/trump-rescinds-lgbtq-protections-obamacare-3f6315b0ca52/
 . . . etc.

And then there's also the fact of his vice-president's record of opposition to gay rights as a member of Congress and as governor of Indiana and an approving reference to conversion therapy in the 2016 Republican Party platform.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/30/us/politics/mike-pence-and-conversion-therapy-a-history.html

Dabnasty

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Here's the caveat though. I'm gay. The night Trump was elected I felt real and genuine fear.

Why?  I'm genuinely curious what Trump did during the campaign that made you feel he was a real threat to your existence.

Oh, and he hired Steve Bannon as his campaign chair. Have you ever read Breitbart?

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/06/17/gay-rights-have-made-us-dumber-its-time-to-get-back-in-the-closet/

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/06/23/take-down-the-fascist-anti-christian-gay-pride-flag/

https://www.instapaper.com/text?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.breitbart.com%2Fbig-government%2F2015%2F07%2F03%2Fhate-wins-oregon-state-issues-gag-order-against-opposing-gay-marriage%2F

And arguably worse than these articles about gay issues is the fact that Breitbart reports on instances of gay/transgender people committing crimes across the country. Sure, gay people break the law too, but by over representing the number of these crimes, news outlets like Breitbart gives their readers the idea that their gayness has something to do with their criminal activities. Anecdotal events that one is familiar with weigh much heavier than the real statistics which many Breitbart readers aren't familiar with anyway. This undoubtedly encourages their readers to think less of gay people.

Sailor Sam

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Here's the caveat though. I'm gay. The night Trump was elected I felt real and genuine fear.

Why?  I'm genuinely curious what Trump did during the campaign that made you feel he was a real threat to your existence.

Everything, and nothing. I've been thinking about your question all day, and that's what I've come up with.

It's been long enough since the campaign that memory has faded, so I went looking on the internet to jog my memory towards any particular highlights. Rea Cary sums it up best, as quoted on Wikipedia, saying Trump's public statements on LGBT issues as 'confusing and conflicting.' Probably because Trump doesn't give a good goddam about gay folks, for either love or hatred. So, there's my nothing.

What Trump does have to do is occasionally relax the absolute stranglehold he's got on the GOP's balls, else his handle will drop right off. Gay people happen to be one of the bones Trump is willing to throw the conservative party. He took Pence as his running mate, and Pence is pretty goddamn terrifying*. Two hours after Trump was sworn in, a slew of social issues simply disappeared from whitehouse.com. I doubt Trump pushed the button. I'm willing to believe that Trump didn't even know the button was being pushed. It was just a button he gave the GOP leaders, so they could feel like they still had things like spines. So, there's my everything. Trump is perfectly willing to use my life, and my job, and my marriage as a bargaining chip.

The neglect isn't benign, though. Once, when I was a very young adult a full grown man punched me in the face, and informed me that I was a faggot. Honestly, it was news to me because I am not, in fact, a faggot and the language was very confusing. But I was too busy bleeding and falling down to engage in much discourse. What I do remember is that there were different kinds of bystanders. The kind that rushed in, the kind that edged away, and the kind that nodded. The nod's were too civilized to punch me themselves, but they sure didn't mind when it happened. Trump has given the floor to the nod's, and that is why I am afraid.

Have I illuminated anything at all, @Syonyk?

*Then made that running mate the Vice President of the United States. Leaving me praying to a god I actually believe in to keep Trump hale and healthy, and alive. Live, you glorious bastard! Proving the universe is, in fact, made entirely of green cheese and irony.

Edit: wrong word
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 08:31:34 PM by Sailor Sam »

Syonyk

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Have I illuminated anything at all, @Syonyk?

Somewhat, and I appreciate the response.

Trump doesn't seem to care much for anyone in particular, though, and is still governing like the dog that finally caught the car, got his teeth stuck in the bumper, and has realized that the car is pulling onto the interstate.  I don't think he ever expected to win.

But, sadly, we'll get more leaders like him.  That sort of thing shows up in a dying empire.  Along with the ever increasing political polarization we see.