Poll

What is your opinion on UBI based on political leanings?

Economically liberal/in favor of UBI
53 (37.3%)
Economically conservative or libertarian/in favor of UBI
42 (29.6%)
Economically liberal/not in favor of UBI
11 (7.7%)
Economically conservative or libertarian/not in favor of UBI
32 (22.5%)
Other (post below)
4 (2.8%)

Total Members Voted: 142

Author Topic: Can We Achieve Universal FI?  (Read 20251 times)

Milkshake

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #250 on: September 19, 2017, 08:09:19 AM »
Perhaps this has already been mentioned here, but for UBI to work I think it would have to be its own currency that is only accepted for certain things (like food stamps, but valid for rent and utilities, etc. too). Then dollars could be spent on luxury items like a bigger house or more cars, and to earn dollars you have to go work at a job.

The reason there aren't 318 million people on this forum is because the vast majority of people SUCK at money management. If you remove all social programs to give them a UBI in dollars, there will be some (maybe not most, as many people have pointed to in studies) who don't work and who don't spend every penny in an efficient, self-sustaining way. Some will gamble it, or smoke it, or whatever.

Now the question becomes, do we let this group starve and die in the streets because they suck at money management? Remember, there are no other social programs because we removed them for UBI. Do we manage everyone's money for them? Of course that takes away the freedom of UBI...

Maybe all the extra time people have will go towards volunteering to help this group, I don't know. That seems like an awful lot of faith to put in a species that isn't known for its kindness.

maizeman

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #251 on: September 19, 2017, 08:29:36 AM »
The problem with the separate currency for only certain things is that it reintroduces a lot of the problems the UBI is trying to solve: overhead and bureaucracy and extra costs for separate payment settling systems.

That's why I like my approach proposed upthread of just paying out the UBI in daily rather than monthly installments. Most of the stuff folks point to as examples of bad money management are actually examples of people being really bad at delayed gratification.

If you give the average person $X dollars to make it through a day, I think they'd manage fine (assuming landlords would also be onboard with charging daily rent 30 seconds after the UBI hit everyone's account each day). Give the same people $X*365 dollars to make it through a year, and yes, some people are going to make bad choices and end up hungry on the streets after a couple of months.

The other advantage of a daily UBI is that if someone makes really bad choices, they're looking at a single night of being cold and hungry and then they get another chance to make it work in the morning, rather than weeks or months with a monthly or annual UBI.
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Milkshake

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #252 on: September 19, 2017, 08:52:13 AM »
That's a good idea, but it requires an automated deposit into a bank account, which as people mentioned before, many people don't have. We can't even have voter ID laws because many low income people don't have the time, money, or means to get an ID. That same group of people probably doesn't have a checking account that generally requires an ID to get. Additionally they would need a way to check their balances and other information. That would mean free internet (if they can't make it to a library) and free devices to use the internet.

Essentially, I think there will always be someone, somewhere who can't get access to the program. Because of that, I think it will get plagued with the same labels of inefficiency and ineffectiveness that the current welfare system has.

sokoloff

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #253 on: September 19, 2017, 09:05:48 AM »
Perhaps this has already been mentioned here, but for UBI to work I think it would have to be its own currency that is only accepted for certain things (like food stamps, but valid for rent and utilities, etc. too). Then dollars could be spent on luxury items like a bigger house or more cars, and to earn dollars you have to go work at a job.
At some point, as a landlord or food seller, I would have gotten "UBI bucks". If those aren't convertible to USD, then I'm not taking 'em. If they are convertible to USD, why go to all the anti-fraud and anti-counterfeiting efforts for something that's just 1:1 with USD anyhow?
Now the question becomes, do we let this group starve and die in the streets because they suck at money management?
We pretty much do that already; I don't think that UBI would make the problem worse.

Milkshake

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #254 on: September 19, 2017, 11:26:02 AM »
Perhaps this has already been mentioned here, but for UBI to work I think it would have to be its own currency that is only accepted for certain things (like food stamps, but valid for rent and utilities, etc. too). Then dollars could be spent on luxury items like a bigger house or more cars, and to earn dollars you have to go work at a job.
At some point, as a landlord or food seller, I would have gotten "UBI bucks". If those aren't convertible to USD, then I'm not taking 'em. If they are convertible to USD, why go to all the anti-fraud and anti-counterfeiting efforts for something that's just 1:1 with USD anyhow?
Now the question becomes, do we let this group starve and die in the streets because they suck at money management?
We pretty much do that already; I don't think that UBI would make the problem worse.

Everything is convertible to USD if you try hard enough.

But I would assume you could take these UBI bucks and cash them in at your bank/authorized gov't approved center to get an exchange for USD, the same way stores sell food to people with food stamps. They would also be serialized in such a way that you would know who used what and how much, for traceability and corruption/theft/laundering prevention.

Either way, there are tons of logistical issues with UBI that I think add up to make it an almost impossible thing to do on a USA national level. It sounds great on paper when summarized into a 140 character tweet, but it's just not that practical.

Watchmaker

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #255 on: September 21, 2017, 01:55:03 PM »
Either way, there are tons of logistical issues with UBI that I think add up to make it an almost impossible thing to do on a USA national level. It sounds great on paper when summarized into a 140 character tweet, but it's just not that practical.

I don't know, our current system has tons of logistical issues as well, and yet we manage.  I really can't see how UBI would be anything but simpler than what we have now.

Too often I think we balk at an idea because it is unfamiliar.  But much (most?) of our current lives would be unfamiliar to previous generations.  The world is going to change whether we want it to or not--it always has.  Might as well try to plan those changes.

iris lily

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #256 on: September 21, 2017, 06:37:57 PM »
Perhaps this has already been mentioned here, but for UBI to work I think it would have to be its own currency that is only accepted for certain things (like food stamps, but valid for rent and utilities, etc. too). Then dollars could be spent on luxury items like a bigger house or more cars, and to earn dollars you have to go work at a job.

The reason there aren't 318 million people on this forum is because the vast majority of people SUCK at money management. If you remove all social programs to give them a UBI in dollars, there will be some (maybe not most, as many people have pointed to in studies) who don't work and who don't spend every penny in an efficient, self-sustaining way. Some will gamble it, or smoke it, or whatever.

Now the question becomes, do we let this group starve and die in the streets because they suck at money management? Remember, there are no other social programs because we removed them for UBI. Do we manage everyone's money for them? Of course that takes away the freedom of UBI...

Maybe all the extra time people have will go towards volunteering to help this group, I don't know. That seems like an awful lot of faith to put in a species that isn't known for its kindness.

I stopped reading UBI discussions because earnest Social worker types assure me that people do not for the most part abuse money, people without money now make generally very good decisions about how to spend their limited funds, I am incaring and WRONG to think that people would do anything other than carefully spend or conserve free gubmnt money.

Your concerns about people who SUCK at money management are also mine, but apparently we are wrong.

 

maizeman

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #257 on: September 21, 2017, 07:02:22 PM »
Iris Lily, no one is saying humans don't have failings and weaknesses and bad judgement (I don't think anyone is saying this are they?). Just that it may be possible to design around those problems. Like how switching from opt in retirement savings to opt out retirement savings dramatically improves how many people save for retirement and how much, even though everyone should be smart enough to realize that they will eventually be old and will need money on their own.
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Lagom

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #258 on: September 21, 2017, 07:06:45 PM »
Also, who cares if a few outliers "abuse" the system? I find it interesting that the majority of people who fret about that tend to also be very pro personal liberty. It's a strange combination to say the least.

Classical_Liberal

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #259 on: September 22, 2017, 01:14:27 AM »
I stopped reading UBI discussions because earnest Social worker types assure me that people do not for the most part abuse money, people without money now make generally very good decisions about how to spend their limited funds, I am incaring and WRONG to think that people would do anything other than carefully spend or conserve free gubmnt money.

Your concerns about people who SUCK at money management are also mine, but apparently we are wrong.

I  think this is very true... However, when it's not "their money", rather some service being provided, that's when people take it less seriously and more misuse starts to show up.  As a healthcare worker this comes to mind with the abuse of emergency services for those who have little or no copays.  Now, instead of giving someone a free limitless service; give them X dollars to do what they please, then people tend to handle things in a much more responsible manner.  I would be interested to see if there is any research regarding the apparent phenomenon.

It's a strange combination to say the least.

I think you are correct in this statement. If we are correct, I wonder about the underlying thought process.

iris lily

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #260 on: September 22, 2017, 08:13:57 AM »
Also, who cares if a few outliers "abuse" the system? I find it interesting that the majority of people who fret about that tend to also be very pro personal liberty. It's a strange combination to say the least.

I dont think it will be a few outliers, I think it will be a large percentage. Maybe not a majority of the UBI receiving population, but a significant number.

.

sokoloff

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #261 on: September 22, 2017, 08:55:55 AM »
What is the type of "abuse" that people are fretting about?

You get money from UBI. What you spend it on is your business. I don't see how likely it is to "abuse" UBI being any more likely than abusing the spending of a $5 bill sitting in my pocket right now.

I don't care if you spend it on bubble gum and magic beans; that's your call.

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #262 on: September 22, 2017, 09:12:07 AM »
What is the type of "abuse" that people are fretting about?

You get money from UBI. What you spend it on is your business. I don't see how likely it is to "abuse" UBI being any more likely than abusing the spending of a $5 bill sitting in my pocket right now.

I don't care if you spend it on bubble gum and magic beans; that's your call.

Ending the inefficiency of fraud monitoring is one of the reasons for UBI not against it.  Multiple states have started drug testing welfare recipients.  The cost has come out to over 100,000 per fraud incident uncovered.  It's cheaper to just let them buy drugs with their welfare.  And what happened to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  If getting high is what winds their spring, should they be free to do exactly that?
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Lagom

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #263 on: September 22, 2017, 10:11:37 AM »
Also, who cares if a few outliers "abuse" the system? I find it interesting that the majority of people who fret about that tend to also be very pro personal liberty. It's a strange combination to say the least.

I dont think it will be a few outliers, I think it will be a large percentage. Maybe not a majority of the UBI receiving population, but a significant number.

.

Based on what evidence? No current social program is so widely abused, so why should this be different?

Ending the inefficiency of fraud monitoring is one of the reasons for UBI not against it.  Multiple states have started drug testing welfare recipients.  The cost has come out to over 100,000 per fraud incident uncovered.  It's cheaper to just let them buy drugs with their welfare.  And what happened to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  If getting high is what winds their spring, should they be free to do exactly that?

Also this.

StarBright

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #264 on: September 22, 2017, 10:47:39 AM »

sokoloff

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #265 on: September 22, 2017, 11:07:11 AM »
I continue to ask: what happens when dad gambles away the UBI income? What happens to the children of the family?

Are you all ready to turn you back on that? Dads who gamble, moms who put family income up their noses.

Tell me the consequence in your world for those actions, what happens?
I am ready to turn my back on those cases. We turn our backs on neglectful parents already. To a great extent, I don't get to judge how someone else should model behavior and raise their children. If the neglect gets too severe, maybe there should still be a DCF intervention to put the kids in state/foster care.

The key thing (and I'm not sure if it was mentioned up-thread or on another UBI discussion) is to allow the learning to be short cycled. Maybe you get the UBI money every day via electronic draft. Maybe you get it once a week. Make a bad call and take it all to the track, you go hungry for a few days but have the chance to connect your actions to the outcome. (By the way, you can still pick up a shovel, rake, or broom and work a day laborer job someplace. There's nothing that says once you blow your UBI that you can't ever get another dime any other way until the next deposit.) Maybe you need to borrow from friends or family.

Imagining that a tiny sliver of the population will be seriously mis-allocating their UBI should not paralyze into trying to prevent harm from coming to those people. Moms who will put UBI up their nose or dads who will put it in their veins already exist and those kids are already in trouble. The fact that we can't save 100.0000000% of the population from spending their money in a way that we judge is unwise is not a reason to erect restrictions that will drive costs up and overall efficacy of the program down.

tyort1

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #266 on: September 22, 2017, 11:13:12 AM »
Imagining that a tiny sliver of the population will be seriously mis-allocating their UBI should not paralyze into trying to prevent harm from coming to those people. Moms who will put UBI up their nose or dads who will put it in their veins already exist and those kids are already in trouble. The fact that we can't save 100.0000000% of the population from spending their money in a way that we judge is unwise is not a reason to erect restrictions that will drive costs up and overall efficacy of the program down.

It's funny how often you see this sentiment from people opposed to social programs in general "Well, some people might/will abuse it, so best to abandon the whole idea."

The fact that a program helps a lot of people and that the large majority of people don't abuse it, doesn't seem to matter to people that think like that.
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iris lily

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #267 on: September 23, 2017, 07:12:49 AM »
I continue to ask: what happens when dad gambles away the UBI income? What happens to the children of the family?

Are you all ready to turn you back on that? Dads who gamble, moms who put family income up their noses.

Tell me the consequence in your world for those actions, what happens?
I am ready to turn my back on those cases. We turn our backs on neglectful parents already. To a great extent, I don't get to judge how someone else should model behavior and raise their children. If the neglect gets too severe, maybe there should still be a DCF intervention to put the kids in state/foster care.

The key thing (and I'm not sure if it was mentioned up-thread or on another UBI discussion) is to allow the learning to be short cycled. Maybe you get the UBI money every day via electronic draft. Maybe you get it once a week. Make a bad call and take it all to the track, you go hungry for a few days but have the chance to connect your actions to the outcome. (By the way, you can still pick up a shovel, rake, or broom and work a day laborer job someplace. There's nothing that says once you blow your UBI that you can't ever get another dime any other way until the next deposit.) Maybe you need to borrow from friends or family.

Imagining that a tiny sliver of the population will be seriously mis-allocating their UBI should not paralyze into trying to prevent harm from coming to those people. Moms who will put UBI up their nose or dads who will put it in their veins already exist and those kids are already in trouble. The fact that we can't save 100.0000000% of the population from spending their money in a way that we judge is unwise is not a reason to erect restrictions that will drive costs up and overall efficacy of the program down.
I dont thnk it is a tiny sliver, and I think a program of comfortable free flowing gubmnt money will only grow the population who wants to sit back and collect it.

But in the theoretical, sure, I agree with you that a Universal Basic Income, if it saves the federal government money, is s good thing and it is fine with me. I appreciate your answer that you are ready to "turn your back" on the troublesome parents who leave their children to starve because I thnk it is an answer that is honest.

Please understand that in our society of safety nets, those same children today, while "in trouble" as you say, DO have government protection via foodstamps,and public housing, at least theoretically. Their drug addled parents may not be able to grab and keep,those services, however.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 07:21:43 AM by iris lily »

iris lily

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #268 on: September 23, 2017, 07:23:47 AM »
What is the type of "abuse" that people are fretting about?

You get money from UBI. What you spend it on is your business. I don't see how likely it is to "abuse" UBI being any more likely than abusing the spending of a $5 bill sitting in my pocket right now.

I don't care if you spend it on bubble gum and magic beans; that's your call.

Ending the inefficiency of fraud monitoring is one of the reasons for UBI not against it.  Multiple states have started drug testing welfare recipients.  The cost has come out to over 100,000 per fraud incident uncovered.  It's cheaper to just let them buy drugs with their welfare.  And what happened to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  If getting high is what winds their spring, should they be free to do exactly that?

I know, I am actually very attracted to the idea of UBI of its simplicity. In the world of adult only, it is
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shelivesthedream

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #270 on: September 23, 2017, 03:41:03 PM »
Surely there is no way to abuse UBI. Everyone is entitled to it, everyone gets it. Job done. What they then do with it is their own business. Yes, some people will manage it badly. That's the point. That they should manage it, whether well or badly. As someone said a few posts ago, people neglect children all the time already. And sitting around on your arse is not abusing UBI. That's the point of it - that you don't need to do anything to collect it. I would absolutely spend a large proportion of my time not working. So what? You don't get less UBI because I like to sit around doing nothing so why do you care?

The only possible abuse is claiming it for someone who doesn't exist/is dead. And surely that is a darn sight easier to check up on than whether someone is poor enough or starving enough or whatever it is you need for each individual benefit these days.

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #271 on: September 24, 2017, 07:08:38 AM »
Surely there is no way to abuse UBI. Everyone is entitled to it, everyone gets it. Job done. What they then do with it is their own business. Yes, some people will manage it badly. That's the point. That they should manage it, whether well or badly. As someone said a few posts ago, people neglect children all the time already. And sitting around on your arse is not abusing UBI. That's the point of it - that you don't need to do anything to collect it. I would absolutely spend a large proportion of my time not working. So what? You don't get less UBI because I like to sit around doing nothing so why do you care?

The only possible abuse is claiming it for someone who doesn't exist/is dead. And surely that is a darn sight easier to check up on than whether someone is poor enough or starving enough or whatever it is you need for each individual benefit these days.

Ding ding ding! I'm normally a bleeding heart, but I agree with this sentiment 100%. If society has given you the material means to survive and you're unable or unwilling to make that work for you, thanks for playing. There would have to be exceptions made for people who are mentally handicapped and/or unable to manage their own funds, of course, but there will be bad parents in any economic system. Worst case scenario, the state would have to step in and take control of those children. So basically the same system we have now.
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kayvent

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #272 on: September 24, 2017, 04:37:58 PM »
Surely there is no way to abuse UBI. Everyone is entitled to it, everyone gets it. Job done. What they then do with it is their own business. Yes, some people will manage it badly. That's the point. That they should manage it, whether well or badly. As someone said a few posts ago, people neglect children all the time already. And sitting around on your arse is not abusing UBI. That's the point of it - that you don't need to do anything to collect it. I would absolutely spend a large proportion of my time not working. So what? You don't get less UBI because I like to sit around doing nothing so why do you care?

The only possible abuse is claiming it for someone who doesn't exist/is dead. And surely that is a darn sight easier to check up on than whether someone is poor enough or starving enough or whatever it is you need for each individual benefit these days.

I can think of three ways to abuse it if children (<23, especially if under 18) get it:

  • Faking a deceased spouse is a live. This happens with Social Security already.
  • Faking a child's existence.
  • Having children to collect more UBI.
  • Fighting over custody just to get UBI.
  • Lying about or Falsifying custody to get UBI.
  • Taking a young adult's UBI without telling them. (Again, this happens already with Social Security's Survival Benefit or the equivalent CPP Survivor's Benefit in Canada)

Oops, gotta stop myself. I don't really care about any abuse. I merely found it amusing to ponder that some of the present exploitation could still be used with UBI.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 07:56:32 PM by kayvent »

shelivesthedream

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #273 on: September 25, 2017, 01:43:32 AM »
Surely there is no way to abuse UBI. Everyone is entitled to it, everyone gets it. Job done. What they then do with it is their own business. Yes, some people will manage it badly. That's the point. That they should manage it, whether well or badly. As someone said a few posts ago, people neglect children all the time already. And sitting around on your arse is not abusing UBI. That's the point of it - that you don't need to do anything to collect it. I would absolutely spend a large proportion of my time not working. So what? You don't get less UBI because I like to sit around doing nothing so why do you care?

The only possible abuse is claiming it for someone who doesn't exist/is dead. [/u]And surely that is a darn sight easier to check up on than whether someone is poor enough or starving enough or whatever it is you need for each individual benefit these days.

I can think of three ways to abuse it if children (<23, especially if under 18) get it:

  • Faking a deceased spouse is a live. This happens with Social Security already.
  • Faking a child's existence.
  • Having children to collect more UBI.
  • Fighting over custody just to get UBI.
  • Lying about or Falsifying custody to get UBI.
  • Taking a young adult's UBI without telling them. (Again, this happens already with Social Security's Survival Benefit or the equivalent CPP Survivor's Benefit in Canada)

Oops, gotta stop myself. I don't really care about any abuse. I merely found it amusing to ponder that some of the present exploitation could still be used with UBI.

Please see additional holding in my post. I suppose you could have more children just to get their UBI but that seems like a pretty crappy exchange to me.

sokoloff

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #274 on: September 25, 2017, 06:12:44 AM »
I suppose you could have more children just to get their UBI but that seems like a pretty crappy exchange to me.
Paying one-third or half shares of UBI to children will also further reduce the incentive. (Or one-third until age 10, then half until 15, then 2/3 until 18 or something similar.)

The "kids are expensive" lament is not that the basic survival expenses are particularly high, but all the optional things are expensive. UBI is targeted to cover the meager basics, not the sleep-away soccer camps.

Milkshake

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #275 on: September 25, 2017, 08:01:41 AM »
Surely there is no way to abuse UBI. Everyone is entitled to it, everyone gets it. Job done. What they then do with it is their own business. Yes, some people will manage it badly. That's the point. That they should manage it, whether well or badly. As someone said a few posts ago, people neglect children all the time already. And sitting around on your arse is not abusing UBI. That's the point of it - that you don't need to do anything to collect it. I would absolutely spend a large proportion of my time not working. So what? You don't get less UBI because I like to sit around doing nothing so why do you care?

The only possible abuse is claiming it for someone who doesn't exist/is dead. And surely that is a darn sight easier to check up on than whether someone is poor enough or starving enough or whatever it is you need for each individual benefit these days.

Ding ding ding! I'm normally a bleeding heart, but I agree with this sentiment 100%. If society has given you the material means to survive and you're unable or unwilling to make that work for you, thanks for playing. There would have to be exceptions made for people who are mentally handicapped and/or unable to manage their own funds, of course, but there will be bad parents in any economic system. Worst case scenario, the state would have to step in and take control of those children. So basically the same system we have now.

Umm... Society already gives you the means to survive. I know several people who came from generations of terrible poverty and worked their asses off to get out of it, and are now successful, wealthy adults. If that's the metric to say "well, if you can't do it then you deserve to starve or die", that already exists, and UBI is just a waste of time.

The problem with UBI is that someone, somewhere will still not be able to have their perfect life, and they will get a few friends and hold hands on the interstate or smash the local McDonald's windows. UBI should be the end all "you can't protest unfairness anymore because it's all on you now", but obviously that won't happen. Some people refuse to take responsibility for their actions, so giving them more entitlements won't solve the underlying problem.

Lagom

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #276 on: September 25, 2017, 08:50:16 AM »
Umm... Society already gives you the means to survive. I know several people who came from generations of terrible poverty and worked their asses off to get out of it, and are now successful, wealthy adults. If that's the metric to say "well, if you can't do it then you deserve to starve or die", that already exists, and UBI is just a waste of time.

The problem with UBI is that someone, somewhere will still not be able to have their perfect life, and they will get a few friends and hold hands on the interstate or smash the local McDonald's windows. UBI should be the end all "you can't protest unfairness anymore because it's all on you now", but obviously that won't happen. Some people refuse to take responsibility for their actions, so giving them more entitlements won't solve the underlying problem.

I'll ignore the coded language (this time) and just repeat for the millionth time that UBI would be intended to replace entitlements, not pile on top of them. Interesting that you would so blatantly choose to ignore that.

Milkshake

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #277 on: September 25, 2017, 09:02:51 AM »
I'll ignore the coded language (this time) and just repeat for the millionth time that UBI would be intended to replace entitlements, not pile on top of them. Interesting that you would so blatantly choose to ignore that.

I understand that UBI is replacing food stamps and welfare and SS and every other social safety net. UBI is a bigger, all encompassing safety net. But nets still have holes, and someone is going to fall through them. Always. There is never going to be a scenario where every single person is protected by the safety net.

So to the other folks whose arguments that "children are still being abused" or "people fall through the cracks now" I'm asking why is it ok to turn our backs on them if we implement UBI, but not if we keep the current system. What changes that makes those who are "unable or unwilling" after UBI worthless, but the ones "unable and unwilling" now are worth fighting for?

OurTown

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #278 on: September 25, 2017, 09:10:52 AM »
Everyone is missing the point.  UBI for human beings will be a necessity because income-producing jobs will be automated within the next 50-100 years.  No income, no consumers, no economic growth.

iris lily

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #279 on: September 25, 2017, 09:14:46 AM »
Everyone is missing the point.  UBI for human beings will be a necessity because income-producing jobs will be automated within the next 50-100 years.  No income, no consumers, no economic growth.

That may be true, I dont take it as fact, though. Yet.

iris lily

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #280 on: September 25, 2017, 09:18:50 AM »
Umm... Society already gives you the means to survive. I know several people who came from generations of terrible poverty and worked their asses off to get out of it, and are now successful, wealthy adults. If that's the metric to say "well, if you can't do it then you deserve to starve or die", that already exists, and UBI is just a waste of time.

The problem with UBI is that someone, somewhere will still not be able to have their perfect life, and they will get a few friends and hold hands on the interstate or smash the local McDonald's windows. UBI should be the end all "you can't protest unfairness anymore because it's all on you now", but obviously that won't happen. Some people refuse to take responsibility for their actions, so giving them more entitlements won't solve the underlying problem.

I'll ignore the coded language (this time) and just repeat for the millionth time that UBI would be intended to replace entitlements, not pile on top of them. Interesting that you would so blatantly choose to ignore that.
And ther will always always be pressure to mcrease the UBI payments. Unrelenting complaints just like we see now about uneven school funding, poor pu licly provided housing, inadequate food stamps.

Of  course those who are not punching a time clock have all the time in the world  to spill out into the street protesting all day, why not?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 05:42:54 PM by iris lily »

kayvent

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #281 on: September 25, 2017, 04:53:24 PM »
It is an interesting point that there will always be upward pressure for UBI.

maizeman

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #282 on: September 25, 2017, 05:16:23 PM »
Agreed. I've gotta think about how you address the issue of pressure on politicians in a democracy with a UBI to always campaign on raising the payouts.

Anyone have good ideas on this?
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iris lily

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #283 on: September 25, 2017, 05:44:51 PM »
Agreed. I've gotta think about how you address the issue of pressure on politicians in a democracy with a UBI to always campaign on raising the payouts.

Anyone have good ideas on this?
well, there is the Social Security UBI. How is that now handled? Politicians are fearful of senior citizens who always vote and in a block. Do they agitate for Social Security payment increases?

Lagom

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #284 on: September 25, 2017, 06:42:26 PM »
Agreed. I've gotta think about how you address the issue of pressure on politicians in a democracy with a UBI to always campaign on raising the payouts.

Anyone have good ideas on this?

I mean this argument could be made for any entitlement program we currently have and doesn't seem to play out that way. Just like hand waving about rampant abuse (with no evidence to back up that it's likely), this is just another strawman. Contrary to some people's opinions, I have seen very little actual evidence that mass amounts of Americans actively want to sit on their ass and demand ever-increasing amounts of free stuff.

I find it consistently amazing that the far more libertarian idea of UBI can scare so many conservatives who are loudly opposed to way more socialist ideas like housing-assistance or food stamps.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 10:58:55 PM by Lagom »

sokoloff

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #285 on: September 25, 2017, 07:49:23 PM »
Agreed. I've gotta think about how you address the issue of pressure on politicians in a democracy with a UBI to always campaign on raising the payouts.

Anyone have good ideas on this?
I mean this argument could be made for any entitlement program we currently have and doesn't seem to play out that way.
I'm not sure I agree. Most existing entitlement programs are received by a (vast) minority of voters and perceived to be paid for by a (vast) majority of voters. It's literally voting "them" "our" money.

In a UBI scheme, there's a danger that it's perceived to be voting "us" "their" money, so the dynamic could very well be different.

Lagom

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #286 on: September 25, 2017, 10:57:49 PM »
Agreed. I've gotta think about how you address the issue of pressure on politicians in a democracy with a UBI to always campaign on raising the payouts.

Anyone have good ideas on this?
I mean this argument could be made for any entitlement program we currently have and doesn't seem to play out that way.
I'm not sure I agree. Most existing entitlement programs are received by a (vast) minority of voters and perceived to be paid for by a (vast) majority of voters. It's literally voting "them" "our" money.

In a UBI scheme, there's a danger that it's perceived to be voting "us" "their" money, so the dynamic could very well be different.

Different than the dynamic of certain political blocs endlessly pushing to lower taxes? As I mentioned earlier in this thread, one of the best ways to frame UBI to the (many) people with a knee-jerk negative reaction to it is as a "universal tax credit." Because that's literally what it would be. Why should people who are ever-supportive of lower taxes suddenly oppose a universal tax credit full stop? Seems strange to me. Most libertarian friends of mine (of which there are a fair number) vastly prefer UBI to our current system for these very reasons.

Also, the people who don't pay enough taxes so as to be total "leeches" would not be significant vs. the number of people paying more than they get back. Just like the system is now.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 11:00:33 PM by Lagom »

Prairie Stash

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #287 on: October 05, 2017, 11:48:46 AM »
Surely there is no way to abuse UBI. Everyone is entitled to it, everyone gets it. Job done. What they then do with it is their own business. Yes, some people will manage it badly. That's the point. That they should manage it, whether well or badly. As someone said a few posts ago, people neglect children all the time already. And sitting around on your arse is not abusing UBI. That's the point of it - that you don't need to do anything to collect it. I would absolutely spend a large proportion of my time not working. So what? You don't get less UBI because I like to sit around doing nothing so why do you care?

The only possible abuse is claiming it for someone who doesn't exist/is dead. [/u]And surely that is a darn sight easier to check up on than whether someone is poor enough or starving enough or whatever it is you need for each individual benefit these days.

I can think of three ways to abuse it if children (<23, especially if under 18) get it:

  • Faking a deceased spouse is a live. This happens with Social Security already.
  • Faking a child's existence.
  • Having children to collect more UBI.
  • Fighting over custody just to get UBI.
  • Lying about or Falsifying custody to get UBI.
  • Taking a young adult's UBI without telling them. (Again, this happens already with Social Security's Survival Benefit or the equivalent CPP Survivor's Benefit in Canada)

Oops, gotta stop myself. I don't really care about any abuse. I merely found it amusing to ponder that some of the present exploitation could still be used with UBI.

Please see additional holding in my post. I suppose you could have more children just to get their UBI but that seems like a pretty crappy exchange to me.
Loads of empirical data to bask you up on this. In Canada, if you earn $30k or less children receive $6400 until age 6 then $5400 until age 18. So you could have 6 kids, a part time job and collect $40,000.

Now if people do that, what really happens is they have created the next generation of tax payers....exactly what the program is hoping to do. Lots of child benefit programs have the stated goal of increasing the population, not everyone sees kids as a bad thing to be avoided.

Classical_Liberal

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #288 on: October 05, 2017, 04:39:46 PM »
Now if people do that, what really happens is they have created the next generation of tax payers....exactly what the program is hoping to do. Lots of child benefit programs have the stated goal of increasing the population, not everyone sees kids as a bad thing to be avoided.

Thought experiement:

Is nonending population growth to increase tax base really a long term solution to humanities woes? 

Resource pool is 100 units, population 100 people, there are 100 units of resource to be distributed, probably not equally since pure socialism fails everywhere it is tried, so some(at least to a level seen in Scandinavian countries?) amount of market forces are needed.  The government can tax the unit translations in what ever way it sees fit.   

Now assume resource pool remains 100, but a generation later there are 200 people for it to be divided between... Does this make a big difference?  if so how?  Is it the change you hope to encourage through policy?


Prairie Stash

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Re: Can We Achieve Universal FI?
« Reply #289 on: October 06, 2017, 11:21:24 AM »
Now if people do that, what really happens is they have created the next generation of tax payers....exactly what the program is hoping to do. Lots of child benefit programs have the stated goal of increasing the population, not everyone sees kids as a bad thing to be avoided.

Thought experiement:

Is nonending population growth to increase tax base really a long term solution to humanities woes? 

Resource pool is 100 units, population 100 people, there are 100 units of resource to be distributed, probably not equally since pure socialism fails everywhere it is tried, so some(at least to a level seen in Scandinavian countries?) amount of market forces are needed.  The government can tax the unit translations in what ever way it sees fit.   

Now assume resource pool remains 100, but a generation later there are 200 people for it to be divided between... Does this make a big difference?  if so how?  Is it the change you hope to encourage through policy?
Why focus on growth, you could also pose the question as shrinking population. I'm not going to get into the overpopulation debate as its not relevant to the original point, the typical reason people pose your query. Many countries have negative population growth (the most famous is Japan), in your thought experiment what happens if you lose population every year?

Reread my comment as constant population. In the context of people abusing UBI by having children, how is that a problem? Empirical evidence from Canada suggests its still insufficient to combat negative growth rates. StatsCan predicts that within 20 years natural population growth (births-Deaths) will be negative and population increases will occur by immigration. So in the same time period discussed for implementing UBI its also predicted that birth rates will be lower than the rate required to maintain the population. Watch and see if the child benefit cheques move the metric at all, its a perfect real world case study, 30 million people all under observation as we speak.
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-630-x/11-630-x2014001-eng.htm

For the record, natural growth rate in the USA is under 0.5% currently, at present rates it will take 140 years to double the population without immigration and that rate is dropping. Feel free to start a thread if this intrigues you. I would move over there to join the debate.