Author Topic: Brittany Spears Conservatory case  (Read 7162 times)

skp

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Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« on: June 27, 2021, 04:31:59 PM »
Curious as to what Mustachians think about Brittany Spears Conservatorship case.  Are you pro Britanny or pro dad/ conservatorship?  Personally I am conflicted.  I get wanting to protect your child, but I am suspicious of his motives because of the salary he's getting.   She doesn't want to take meds (and IMO probably should) , wants off birth control (she already lost custody of 2 kids),  and wants to live her own life (who doesn't).   Other people don't take their meds, make bad decisions, shouldn't she be allowed?  it's a tough call.

MudPuppy

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2021, 04:47:23 PM »
Has she said though, that she wants zero meds? I’ve only seen that she was taken off one regimen that had been working for her for a while and put on a different one that had some bad effects for her personally.

I think that at a minimum she needs a neutral party as her conservator. This is very common.

Edit:  I think the biggest problem I have is that she is allowed to perform for money (that she can’t control) while not being able to legally make reproductive or other health choices or to even drive a car.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2021, 04:51:26 PM by MudPuppy »

skp

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2021, 04:54:43 PM »
Has she said though, that she wants zero meds? I’ve only seen that she was taken off one regimen that had been working for her for a while and put on a different one that had some bad effects for her personally.

I think that at a minimum she needs a neutral party as her conservator. This is very common.
[/quote
I'm suspicious. I don't think people are willy nillly taken off a regimen that has been working.  I get not liking the side effects.  And I'm not sure if people should be made to endure them. But I don't think meds are changed for no reason.  I do agree with the neutral party.   

MaybeBabyMustache

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2021, 04:56:43 PM »
What Mud Puppy said. If she needs someone (not super close to the case), it should be someone independent. Forcing her to perform, while taking away her reproductive choices (among many others) is an absolute non-starter for me.

This also seems like a very extreme type of conservatorship, that's gone on for a very long time. I'm not an expert in this area, but it strikes me as really unusual. If she wasn't Brittany Spears, what would be happening?

Metalcat

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2021, 05:04:44 PM »
Many lawyers have weighed in on how strange this case is and how unreasonable it appears.

This is a highly successful, top of her game professional who has ZERO autonomy when it comes to any of her own life decisions. That's fucking insane.

Her father also doesn't exactly have the most stellar reputation, or even a history of being that close with her, so the argument that it's just a loving dad trying to protect his daughter isn't terribly convincing.

Conservatorship is an EXTREME degree of control over every aspect of someone's life. Seriously, some prisoners have more control over their day to day activities than people under conservatorships.

It's just very, VERY difficult to dissolve a conservatorship. Note that she has actually petitioned in the past just to have her father removed and to have a third party professional organization in charge instead.

I'm very grateful for this case because it's shining a light on conservatorships in general, which many in the legal world have concerns about. It's not hard to find analysis on this if you are curious.

But make no mistake, there's a reason for the powerful movement behind this. It's not frivolous fangirling, people are angry because this is a legitimately fucking terrifying case.

OtherJen

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2021, 05:05:01 PM »
Has she said though, that she wants zero meds? I’ve only seen that she was taken off one regimen that had been working for her for a while and put on a different one that had some bad effects for her personally.

I think that at a minimum she needs a neutral party as her conservator. This is very common.

Edit:  I think the biggest problem I have is that she is allowed to perform for money (that she can’t control) while not being able to legally make reproductive or other health choices or to even drive a car.

This. Her handlers are treating her like a circus animal. It's disturbing.

From everything I've seen and read, it seems that she was committed when her youngest was an infant (post-partum depression/psychosis?) and she was hounded 24/7 by paparazzi. Certainly she needed medical help. I strongly suspect that she did not need to be stripped permanently of her agency as an adult.

MudPuppy

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2021, 05:09:00 PM »
Quote
I'm suspicious. I don't think people are willy nillly taken off a regimen that has been working.  I get not liking the side effects.  And I'm not sure if people should be made to endure them. But I don't think meds are changed for no reason.  I do agree with the neutral party.

Not typically, but 1) it’s sadly not unheard of to dismiss concerns people with mental illness have about their experience with medication, etc. there are many treatment options, it didn’t have to be either a regimen or b regimen. 2) money can buy unscrupulous providers

OtherJen

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2021, 05:11:25 PM »
Quote
I'm suspicious. I don't think people are willy nillly taken off a regimen that has been working.  I get not liking the side effects.  And I'm not sure if people should be made to endure them. But I don't think meds are changed for no reason.  I do agree with the neutral party.

Not typically, but 1) it’s sadly not unheard of to dismiss concerns people with mental illness have about their experience with medication, etc. there are many treatment options, it didn’t have to be either a regimen or b regimen. 2) money can buy unscrupulous providers

See: Brian Wilson and Stevie Nicks for celebrities with histories of unscrupulous psychiatrists.

Villanelle

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2021, 05:50:06 PM »
Well, we don't know what we don't know.  It's possible (but not, to me, especially plausible) that there are doctor's reports citing the voices she hears, suicide attempts, or other extreme  and truly dangerous behavior.)  But assuming that doesn't exist...

I think it's utter bullshit.  The court should not take away someone's basic autonomy in order to prevent them from making bad decision.  The court's role is not to prevent someone from a frivolous marriage or shaving their head or having a kid when it's pretty clear it's a bad idea.  Or squandering away their money.  The court's should only strip a person of control of even the most basic aspects of their life if they are an extreme and significant threat to themselves or others.

I also think there is some misogyny inherent in it.  And it's crazy to me that it's almost impossible to get a conservatorship removed once in place.  A person should be entitled to someone working for THEM, not their estate or the conservatorship, at least every few years, upon request.  That person should represent them and their interests and desires.  If they are still unstable to the point that a conservatorship is still necessary, the conservator should have to reprove that, with the same burden of proof as starting from scratch, and with representative for the person in question that have no conflict of interest.  IOW, Brittany should have lawyers fighting for what she says she wants, completely separate from the lawyers of the conservatorship.  It's an absolute Catch-22, in almost the exact way as the original. She's deemed too crazy to have her own lawyer to argue that maybe she isn't crazy. 

Metalcat

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2021, 06:20:04 PM »
It really is bonkers that the burden of proof is that the conservatorship isn't needed, not that it *is* needed.

Meaning, it should be hard to sustain an indefinite conservatorship, not difficult to dissolve one. The burden to sustain total control over an adult should be ENORMOUS.

Street dwelling heroine addicts don't have their rights removed like that.

OtherJen

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2021, 06:36:54 PM »
It really is bonkers that the burden of proof is that the conservatorship isn't needed, not that it *is* needed.

Meaning, it should be hard to sustain an indefinite conservatorship, not difficult to dissolve one. The burden to sustain total control over an adult should be ENORMOUS.

Street dwelling heroine addicts don't have their rights removed like that.

Convicted felons get their rights back once they’ve served their sentences.

shuffler

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2021, 10:32:23 PM »

markbike528CBX

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2021, 11:35:29 PM »
PTF because I don't read PeepHole, InTouch or other magazines enough apparently.   

That said, the burden of proof should be on the conservator's side (periodically). 
Even convicted, dangerous felons get to go before parole boards (the periodic part, not the burden of proof part).

If you want to fuck up your life, go for it.
If you are so fucked up that you are a danger to yourself and others, then there are institutions for that. 
I'm not comfortable in who gets to judge you, or how you get judged, to get to an institution, but I understand that sometimes that happens.

If you are competent enough to perform in public, then I think you are competent enough to pick your own lawyers or other demise.

Disclosure for the strikeout:
While I am in sadness for my sister's suicide and think it was stupid and selfish of her, that is an adult choice in my opinion.
She was 17, but for me that's close enough to the legal adulthood to count as an adult.  I am still crying about it.

Cassie

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2021, 12:22:36 AM »
This entire situation is horrible. I hope she gets her freedom.

marty998

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2021, 03:25:25 AM »
Lots of coverage in our press about this one.

If her name was Brian we wouldn’t be having these conversations. Males do not have their human rights taken away like this in similar situations..


Metalcat

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2021, 06:41:28 AM »
PTF because I don't read PeepHole, InTouch or other magazines enough apparently.   

That said, the burden of proof should be on the conservator's side (periodically). 
Even convicted, dangerous felons get to go before parole boards (the periodic part, not the burden of proof part).

If you want to fuck up your life, go for it.
If you are so fucked up that you are a danger to yourself and others, then there are institutions for that. 
I'm not comfortable in who gets to judge you, or how you get judged, to get to an institution, but I understand that sometimes that happens.

If you are competent enough to perform in public, then I think you are competent enough to pick your own lawyers or other demise.

Disclosure for the strikeout:
While I am in sadness for my sister's suicide and think it was stupid and selfish of her, that is an adult choice in my opinion.
She was 17, but for me that's close enough to the legal adulthood to count as an adult.  I am still crying about it.

I'm very sorry to hear about your sister.
That's kind of the point of why this is such a shocking case though, people who have breakdowns don't usually end up in conservatorship. This is an indefinite arrangement despite her.clearly being much better than she was 14 years ago when she had a breakdown and became a danger to herself.

You mention not reading tabloids, but this has been covered by every major news outlet in the western world, because it's not just pop princess gossip, this is a major legal case that's been written about and heavily criticized since it's beginning.

She's in this situation because of her assets. Not because the legal system protects vulnerable, young, mentally struggling young women, as you obviously know.

ender

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2021, 07:11:31 AM »
It's kind of crazy to me how even in the 21st century we have such an abusive system.

Well, it is believable I guess. But pretty sad.

GuitarStv

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2021, 07:25:27 AM »
I don't really know anything about this case.  It sounds like Spears has been declared incompetent/incapable of handling her own affairs due to mental illness?

ender

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2021, 07:33:50 AM »
I don't really know anything about this case.  It sounds like Spears has been declared incompetent/incapable of handling her own affairs due to mental illness?

https://www.google.com/search?q=why+is+britney+under+conservatorship

Quote
Britney was put under conservatorship following her very public breakdown in 2008


GuitarStv

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2021, 07:40:36 AM »
I don't really know anything about this case.  It sounds like Spears has been declared incompetent/incapable of handling her own affairs due to mental illness?

https://www.google.com/search?q=why+is+britney+under+conservatorship

Quote
Britney was put under conservatorship following her very public breakdown in 2008

So, yes then?

That happened 13 years ago.  Seems odd that if one of your kids acts erratically you can take away their autonomy permanently.

Is this allowed because psychology lacks definition of a 'normal state' and thus it's not possible to cure a psychological condition?

MudPuppy

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2021, 07:45:34 AM »
There are definitely persons that are not going to be independently capable because that’s just their condition. That is not typically the case for people with issues similar to hers.

OtherJen

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2021, 08:02:36 AM »
Lots of coverage in our press about this one.

If her name was Brian we wouldn’t be having these conversations. Males do not have their human rights taken away like this in similar situations..

Yes. Note that Britney was raised in the Southern Baptist Church. Women are placed under the headship of their husband or father and are considered subordinate to them. It adds another sick layer to the whole mess.

Metalcat

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2021, 08:18:43 AM »
I don't really know anything about this case.  It sounds like Spears has been declared incompetent/incapable of handling her own affairs due to mental illness?

https://www.google.com/search?q=why+is+britney+under+conservatorship

Quote
Britney was put under conservatorship following her very public breakdown in 2008

So, yes then?

That happened 13 years ago.  Seems odd that if one of your kids acts erratically you can take away their autonomy permanently.

Is this allowed because psychology lacks definition of a 'normal state' and thus it's not possible to cure a psychological condition?

Kind of, kind of not.

It's more that the legal system of conservatorship is fucking insane.

I'm not a legal expert, so I won't try to explain it, but you can easily find legal opinions and analysis that explains how bonkers it is.

But the major difference between Britney vs another young woman with identical psychological issues is that Britney has assets. Many equally mentally ill people walk around daily with the freedom to control their own lives. The medical system does not require them to be in a conservatorship, but they could end up in one if someone petitioned for it.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2021, 08:20:49 AM by Malcat »

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2021, 08:41:08 AM »
I’ve not read anything about Britney or this case, but I’m curious: are there any other celebrity types who are or have been under conservatorship? And how did those situations work out in the end?

Metalcat

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2021, 08:50:13 AM »
I’ve not read anything about Britney or this case, but I’m curious: are there any other celebrity types who are or have been under conservatorship? And how did those situations work out in the end?

There are others, and some went horribly, like Brian Wilson mentioned previously. Mickey Rooney didn't fare too well either.

Amanda Bynes is currently fighting her conservatorship.

GuitarStv

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2021, 08:50:31 AM »
I’ve not read anything about Britney or this case, but I’m curious: are there any other celebrity types who are or have been under conservatorship? And how did those situations work out in the end?

Doesn't Elton John have something set up where he's only allowed to withdraw a certain amount of cash each day?

Metalcat

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2021, 08:55:35 AM »
I’ve not read anything about Britney or this case, but I’m curious: are there any other celebrity types who are or have been under conservatorship? And how did those situations work out in the end?

Doesn't Elton John have something set up where he's only allowed to withdraw a certain amount of cash each day?

Probably by choice though, due to his financial problems.

Villanelle

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2021, 12:30:10 PM »
I don't really know anything about this case.  It sounds like Spears has been declared incompetent/incapable of handling her own affairs due to mental illness?

Yes, more than a decade ago.  It's been all over the news lately, both due to legal developments (her challenging parts and now kind of all of the conservatorship, which gave her father complete control over basically every aspect of her life including her tens of millions of dollars), and because there was a recent documentary about the situation.

The biggest issue seems to be that ending a conservatorship is almost impossible unless the person in charge petitions for it (and is her dad going to give up his control over her fortune willingly?).  This is because once you are under a conservatorship, you are deemed too unwell to do anything, really, including hiring your own lawyer (and even if you could, with what money would you pay them, because your money is not yours to spend).  So you can't get deemed "uncrazy" because you are considered too crazy to do so, in many ways.  The conservatorship never has to meet the same burden of proof it initially did, once it is established.   So you are stuck and it is very, very difficult to get unstuck.

Britney was recently able to have another conservator appointed, along with her father who until then had been the only one in charge (after the previous financial person quit, IIRC.)  But then within the last week or two, she was in court asking for the entire thing to be dissolved, talking about how she was forced to be on birth control and take other meds essentially against her will (because, according to the courts, she essentially has not "will" when it comes to her own life).

I believe prior to this she had just asked that her dad be removed and replaced and the courts wouldn't even do that, IIRC. 

It's actually a bit terrifying (which is why I've dug into it a bit, even though I don't care specifically about Brittney Spears even a little bit).  If someone can succeed in getting you deemed unfit, nearly all of your rights evaporate and getting that undone can be nearly impossible unless they people given control over it want to relinquish that control voluntarily. 

YttriumNitrate

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2021, 12:41:58 PM »
I’ve not read anything about Britney or this case, but I’m curious: are there any other celebrity types who are or have been under conservatorship? And how did those situations work out in the end?
Doesn't Elton John have something set up where he's only allowed to withdraw a certain amount of cash each day?
Probably by choice though, due to his financial problems.

Based on what I could glean from a quick look at trashy British tabloids, Elton John righted his financial ship by marrying a shrewd businessman and turning over financial control to him. Unlike Spears, Elton John's husband is trying to get him to work less and appears to have done a great job of building his net worth over the last 15 years.

trollwithamustache

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2021, 12:56:43 PM »
it strikes me as completely bonkers that she is capable of earning tens of millions of dollars a year on a Las Vegas contract, but it not legally capable of taking care of herself.  A short conservatorship when in rehab or an institution? that seems reasonable. But not when she is out and working and capable of servicing a major contract like that.

Follow the money. The parents make more money off her in conservatorship (not just the dad's salary, there is tons of "legitimate" expenses getting covered too.) the lawyers? they are making a killing.

Metalcat

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2021, 01:14:34 PM »
it strikes me as completely bonkers that she is capable of earning tens of millions of dollars a year on a Las Vegas contract, but it not legally capable of taking care of herself.  A short conservatorship when in rehab or an institution? that seems reasonable. But not when she is out and working and capable of servicing a major contract like that.

Follow the money. The parents make more money off her in conservatorship (not just the dad's salary, there is tons of "legitimate" expenses getting covered too.) the lawyers? they are making a killing.

A Vegas residency, multiple albums, and a judge on a reality tv show. None of which she had any control over.

There's a viral video going around of her doing a concert, telling the audience she's overheating because she was performing sick with a fever of 102.

Sibley

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2021, 09:53:21 AM »
I also haven't followed her case in detail but I'm aware of the basics at least. I think that the conservatorship should be ended, and there should be serious consideration if she was enslaved, and related criminal investigation if appropriate (I suspect it is appropriate).

The whole conservatory process needs to be overhauled as well. This case proves the need.

Metalcat

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2021, 09:59:30 AM »
I also haven't followed her case in detail but I'm aware of the basics at least. I think that the conservatorship should be ended, and there should be serious consideration if she was enslaved, and related criminal investigation if appropriate (I suspect it is appropriate).

The whole conservatory process needs to be overhauled as well. This case proves the need.

That's the thing, none of it is criminal. That's what so crazy, a conservatorship makes all of it legal.

Sibley

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2021, 10:29:36 AM »
I also haven't followed her case in detail but I'm aware of the basics at least. I think that the conservatorship should be ended, and there should be serious consideration if she was enslaved, and related criminal investigation if appropriate (I suspect it is appropriate).

The whole conservatory process needs to be overhauled as well. This case proves the need.

That's the thing, none of it is criminal. That's what so crazy, a conservatorship makes all of it legal.

I suspect that a good lawyer could use the 13th amendment to challenge that. When you look at the situation, it certainly seems that she's a slave. The piece that really nails it for me is that she's been working. If she wasn't able to work, then that would support the argument that it's for her own good. But she's been working and earning money, and lots of it.

MudPuppy

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2021, 10:38:43 AM »
Not sure. Her conservatorship more or less circumvents her own will. It’s “voluntary” for the person who legally is her decision maker.

Fireball

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2021, 11:10:14 AM »
I follow her on a couple different social media outlets and it's very obvious she still has some mental issues going on.  BUT, so does most of America. At least on the surface, her conservatorship just seemed like a huge money grab.

Villanelle

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2021, 11:10:58 AM »
I also haven't followed her case in detail but I'm aware of the basics at least. I think that the conservatorship should be ended, and there should be serious consideration if she was enslaved, and related criminal investigation if appropriate (I suspect it is appropriate).

The whole conservatory process needs to be overhauled as well. This case proves the need.

That's the thing, none of it is criminal. That's what so crazy, a conservatorship makes all of it legal.

I suspect that a good lawyer could use the 13th amendment to challenge that. When you look at the situation, it certainly seems that she's a slave. The piece that really nails it for me is that she's been working. If she wasn't able to work, then that would support the argument that it's for her own good. But she's been working and earning money, and lots of it.

As I understand it, a conservatorship essentially makes almost anything (barring physical or extreme mental abuse) legal.  As I understand it, she wasn't quite forced to work.  That's my impression based on teh fact that recently she came out and said she will not work again until she is free from the conservatorship, which certainly gives the impression she has been able to say that all along.  Now, perhaps she was persuaded or threatened.  ("If you don't perform every single night of your contract, even if sick, then we won't let you see your boyfriend, we will take away all social media, etc.).  When I asked a lawyer friend about that, she said even that may well be legal under the conservatorship.  They are allowed to control her social media access "for her own good".  So barring true abuse (and again the "mental/emotional/financial abuse" bar would be very, very high for someone who has been deemed incompetent, essentially) I'm not sure what would rise to the level of criminality.  Frankly, even if we discover proof in writing that her father wanted the conservatory only to gain access to her money, if he was able to convince the courts her case met the standard for granting a conservatorship, I still don't see how it would be criminal or anything else. Unless he lied to get the conservatorship granted. 

So it seems very unlikely that unless they lied to the courts, there is much of a case for anything criminal having happened.  It's impossible to say for sure without know all the ins and outs of who did what, but the entire problem, which this case has highlighted beautifully, is that rights as we tend to think of them apply to people who have agency.  Once the court removes agency, those rights look very different.  They can force her to be on birth control, for example, which is something that can't be done to a person with agency.  Her rights shrunk the moment the court gave someone else control over her. 

I think that, at a minimum, conservatorships need to be subject to annual review, with the same burden of proof, if the person in question requests that, and that the person needs to be able to have their own representation (and access to the funds, if they exist, to pay that person.  Perhaps a standard that at least as much money must be available to pay that lawyer as is used to pay the conservatorship's council.). 

There's a special place in hell for someone who starts selling his daughter for money when she's a young girl and keeps at it, with dramatically escalating means, even after seeing all the ways it screwed her up in the first place.  To call him a leech is offensive to leeches. 

Metalcat

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2021, 11:25:37 AM »
^exactly

This case has been in and out of court so many times, especially for the last few years. This isn't the first that it's been scrutinized, it's just the first that anything Britney has said has been made public.

She's otherwise only communicated in performances or social media, all of which are controlled by her handlers.

It seems the only power she has is to refuse to work, which has been her latest move, and is why the finance co-conservator (aptly named Wallet) is gone.

He states that she'll likely be under conservatorship her entire life because she lacks the ability to make major financial decisions. But to me there's a difference between abdicating control of your finances vs having the courts dictate that you have no autonomy over any aspect of your personal life.

The legal team for the conservators (which Britney pays for because she has to pay for both sides), have always pointed to her financial success as an indicator that they do a great job, but that's where it gets so messy. Is being as financially successful as possible actually a well being indicator for a mentally ill person?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2021, 11:27:24 AM by Malcat »

Imma

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2021, 11:40:43 AM »
^exactly

This case has been in and out of court so many times, especially for the last few years. This isn't the first that it's been scrutinized, it's just the first that anything Britney has said has been made public.

She's otherwise only communicated in performances or social media, all of which are controlled by her handlers.

It seems the only power she has is to refuse to work, which has been her latest move, and is why the finance co-conservator (aptly named Wallet) is gone.

He states that she'll likely be under conservatorship her entire life because she lacks the ability to make major financial decisions. But to me there's a difference between abdicating control of your finances vs having the courts dictate that you have no autonomy over any aspect of your personal life.

The legal team for the conservators (which Britney pays for because she has to pay for both sides), have always pointed to her financial success as an indicator that they do a great job, but that's where it gets so messy. Is being as financially successful as possible actually a well being indicator for a mentally ill person?

Are there different types of conservatorships in the US? Because iny country (NL) there's a form of financial conservatorship (called bewind) which handles only the financial side of someone's life. Bewind is quite common for people in debts, people with mental health issues, addiction, low IQ or other issues that mean they can't deal with money. The court appoints someone to deal with the bills and financial issues and the person under this financial conservatorship basically gets pocket money. The conservator has to send a financial overview to the court once a year.  There's another form of conservatorship called mentorship where a mentor is appointed to make medical and care decisions (but not financial).

The type of situation Britney is in, where someone is not able to make any kind of decision about their own life at all, is so extremely rare here I've never even come across it irl. Think someone in coma for years. There's a chance that someone like Britney may need a form of guidance in her life but even if she chooses to waste her money, it's her money, her life. If she needs people to help her run her life and take care of her she can choose to hire them.

Sugaree

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2021, 11:45:33 AM »
I don't really know anything about this case.  It sounds like Spears has been declared incompetent/incapable of handling her own affairs due to mental illness?

https://www.google.com/search?q=why+is+britney+under+conservatorship

Quote
Britney was put under conservatorship following her very public breakdown in 2008


Fine.  But if she's not mentally healthy enough to have control of her own life then she's not well enough to perform 300 nights a year in Vegas.

Metalcat

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2021, 11:54:06 AM »
It's possible she may have needed total conservatorship when she had her full breakdown in 2007.

What's alarming about the system is that the default is that it's permanent and the burden of proof is to prove that she doesn't need it moving forward, not that she does.

The complicating factor is that if it weren't for her assets, no one would fight to keep a total conservatorship over her.

If she were a disabled person depending on a government service for her needs, the burden would be to prove her ongoing disability. But because she's wealthy, it's the opposite.

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2021, 12:31:20 PM »
^exactly

This case has been in and out of court so many times, especially for the last few years. This isn't the first that it's been scrutinized, it's just the first that anything Britney has said has been made public.

She's otherwise only communicated in performances or social media, all of which are controlled by her handlers.

It seems the only power she has is to refuse to work, which has been her latest move, and is why the finance co-conservator (aptly named Wallet) is gone.

He states that she'll likely be under conservatorship her entire life because she lacks the ability to make major financial decisions. But to me there's a difference between abdicating control of your finances vs having the courts dictate that you have no autonomy over any aspect of your personal life.

The legal team for the conservators (which Britney pays for because she has to pay for both sides), have always pointed to her financial success as an indicator that they do a great job, but that's where it gets so messy. Is being as financially successful as possible actually a well being indicator for a mentally ill person?

Are there different types of conservatorships in the US? Because iny country (NL) there's a form of financial conservatorship (called bewind) which handles only the financial side of someone's life. Bewind is quite common for people in debts, people with mental health issues, addiction, low IQ or other issues that mean they can't deal with money. The court appoints someone to deal with the bills and financial issues and the person under this financial conservatorship basically gets pocket money. The conservator has to send a financial overview to the court once a year.  There's another form of conservatorship called mentorship where a mentor is appointed to make medical and care decisions (but not financial).

The type of situation Britney is in, where someone is not able to make any kind of decision about their own life at all, is so extremely rare here I've never even come across it irl. Think someone in coma for years. There's a chance that someone like Britney may need a form of guidance in her life but even if she chooses to waste her money, it's her money, her life. If she needs people to help her run her life and take care of her she can choose to hire them.

Yes, a simple fiduciary conservatorship exists here.

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2021, 01:33:34 PM »
It's possible she may have needed total conservatorship when she had her full breakdown in 2007.

What's alarming about the system is that the default is that it's permanent and the burden of proof is to prove that she doesn't need it moving forward, not that she does.

The complicating factor is that if it weren't for her assets, no one would fight to keep a total conservatorship over her.

If she were a disabled person depending on a government service for her needs, the burden would be to prove her ongoing disability. But because she's wealthy, it's the opposite.

+100

Imma

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2021, 01:39:14 PM »
@MudPuppy thanks! Makes it clear that there's a good path available towards more independence for Britney. She's clearly doing much better than during her mental breakdown, as she seems to be doing well in her career, spends time with her kids etc, there doesn't seem to be a true medical reason to keep her in this extreme situation. I guess some people behaved badly enough towards her that they know they'll be cut off if they ever lose control over her. She's the goose with the golden egg.

I am surprised this conservatorship is so easily turned into a permanent thing and it doesn't have to be renewed. Makes you wonder how many non-famous people are in situations like this.

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2021, 01:47:35 PM »
@MudPuppy thanks! Makes it clear that there's a good path available towards more independence for Britney. She's clearly doing much better than during her mental breakdown, as she seems to be doing well in her career, spends time with her kids etc, there doesn't seem to be a true medical reason to keep her in this extreme situation. I guess some people behaved badly enough towards her that they know they'll be cut off if they ever lose control over her. She's the goose with the golden egg.

I am surprised this conservatorship is so easily turned into a permanent thing and it doesn't have to be renewed. Makes you wonder how many non-famous people are in situations like this.

It seems to be permanent by default, and the general consensus is that she probably can't get out of it. Although, real information is limited, but many many lawyers have written that they don't see it e ding.

She wasn't even able to get her father replaced with a professional 3rd party conservator, which is what she tried last year. If she can't even have control over who gets to control her, she's pretty fucked.

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2021, 01:50:36 PM »
@MudPuppy thanks! Makes it clear that there's a good path available towards more independence for Britney. She's clearly doing much better than during her mental breakdown, as she seems to be doing well in her career, spends time with her kids etc, there doesn't seem to be a true medical reason to keep her in this extreme situation. I guess some people behaved badly enough towards her that they know they'll be cut off if they ever lose control over her. She's the goose with the golden egg.

I am surprised this conservatorship is so easily turned into a permanent thing and it doesn't have to be renewed. Makes you wonder how many non-famous people are in situations like this.

It seems to be permanent by default, and the general consensus is that she probably can't get out of it. Although, real information is limited, but many many lawyers have written that they don't see it e ding.

She wasn't even able to get her father replaced with a professional 3rd party conservator, which is what she tried last year. If she can't even have control over who gets to control her, she's pretty fucked.

Do you not think the heightened publicity of the situation will make any difference?

Metalcat

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #46 on: June 29, 2021, 01:51:36 PM »
@MudPuppy thanks! Makes it clear that there's a good path available towards more independence for Britney. She's clearly doing much better than during her mental breakdown, as she seems to be doing well in her career, spends time with her kids etc, there doesn't seem to be a true medical reason to keep her in this extreme situation. I guess some people behaved badly enough towards her that they know they'll be cut off if they ever lose control over her. She's the goose with the golden egg.

I am surprised this conservatorship is so easily turned into a permanent thing and it doesn't have to be renewed. Makes you wonder how many non-famous people are in situations like this.

It seems to be permanent by default, and the general consensus is that she probably can't get out of it. Although, real information is limited, but many many lawyers have written that they don't see it e ding.

She wasn't even able to get her father replaced with a professional 3rd party conservator, which is what she tried last year. If she can't even have control over who gets to control her, she's pretty fucked.

Do you not think the heightened publicity of the situation will make any difference?

Maybe. It could put pressure on the judge.

Imma

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #47 on: June 29, 2021, 02:52:34 PM »
Cases like this could potentially change not just the outcome for Britney but could help change actual legislation. The public outrage and the disparity between her legal situation and her life as an extremely succesful professional could influence the judge. I think the vast majority of people in her situation live in institutions or facilities. I don't expect there to be many similar cases where someone is capable of making millions but not capable of making their own medical decisions.

That permanent by default thing seems like exactly the kind of thing that legislators could easily change and the Free Britney movement may make that happen.

Psychstache

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #48 on: June 29, 2021, 03:18:12 PM »
Quote from: Imma
I am surprised this conservatorship is so easily turned into a permanent thing and it doesn't have to be renewed. Makes you wonder how many non-famous people are in situations like this.

Prior to information about the Spears case, it made sense to me. My experience with conservatorship was in my job as a school psych. When I had students with significant IDD (intellectual and developmental disabilities) who were clearly going to be living with their paarents/family for the rest of their lives, we would often work with those parents to obtain conservatorship. This was important because when parents did not make those deadlines the rights of the parents transferred to the student on their 18th birthday, which created some challenges with continuing services. Some of the parents needed significant support with the logistics of navigating the legal system for this (getting time off to go to court, responding to the court when information was sent, paying fees, etc). In all the cases where it came up in my work, it was abundantly clear that a lifetime conservatorship was appropriate and having periodic renewals would only, at best, create additional hassles for the parents on what was a formality or, at worst, risk disrupting services if for some reason the conservatorship was not renewed and there was a transfer of rights back to the adult with IDD.

That said, I never imagined a scenario like what is going on with Britney Spears, which is clearly disgusting.

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Re: Brittany Spears Conservatory case
« Reply #49 on: June 29, 2021, 04:27:22 PM »
Cases like this could potentially change not just the outcome for Britney but could help change actual legislation. The public outrage and the disparity between her legal situation and her life as an extremely succesful professional could influence the judge. I think the vast majority of people in her situation live in institutions or facilities. I don't expect there to be many similar cases where someone is capable of making millions but not capable of making their own medical decisions.

That permanent by default thing seems like exactly the kind of thing that legislators could easily change and the Free Britney movement may make that happen.

I've wondered if perhaps the ACLU might get involved.  To some extent, the lower courts can only uphold the law as written.  I assume any kind of case can go to SCOTUS, if they agree to hear it.  That could be the way to not only "free Brittney", but to see changes in the law to prevent anyone else from being trapped in this kind of situation when it's not appropriate.

Psychstache's examples are why I've said that I think there should be reviews if and only if the person under conservatorship insists.  If they aren't asking not to have things change, there would be no work for anyone.  It's not ideal, but it still allows someone who believes they are sufficiently well to be able to challenge the conservatorship, without triggering an automatic  review that creates burden and expense for everyone. 

It could even be that 1/yr, the person can go to a psychologist of their choosing and if that expert's opinion is they are well enough, then and only then does it go to the courts for reassessment.  So Brittany would have to ask for a psychologist's review, had that doctor assert that in his opinion, she's capable of caring for herself (or whatever the specific legal wording is), and then it would go to court, with her being able to hire her own counsel. 

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!