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Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?

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Who cares? The SCOTUS doesn't matter anyways.

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Dabnasty

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #650 on: September 28, 2018, 07:42:53 AM »
Quote
If I was facing a bunch of serious allegations that I know are patently false, the first thing I'd be pushing for is to get someone to investigate.  The investigation would clear my name and show the people making claims for the liars they are . . . especially if they're all easily dismissed bullshit claims.

I'd be really angry and want to do everything possible to stop the investigation if I had something to hide though.

I don't know what Kavenaugh has to hide (the allegations may not be true, he just may be hiding some other dark secret) . . . but he's certainly acting like someone guilty of something.

Sounds a lot like saying those who have nothing to hide shouldn't fear mass surveillance or warantless searches...

I don't really see how.

Mass surveillance is an invasion of privacy that is executed against everyone without cause.
Warrantless searches are an invasion of privacy that are executed on targeted individuals without cause.
An investigation of sexual allegations made against someone is an invasion of privacy of both the accuser and accused with cause.

Without an investigation, we have two people making claims and not enough evidence to make a judgement.  Investigating an accusation removes some of the 'he said/she said' and gives additional information that can only benefit the party telling the truth.  I've mentioned several times that I have no idea if the allegations are true or false.  Neither do you.  That's the purpose of an investigation . . . to shed some light on the issue and get a better understanding of what really happened.  Standing in the way of this only benefits the person who is lying.

Absolutely. If You or I were accused of an attack like this we would be investigated. Is it possible that the allegations were fabricated? Sure. Would our privacy therefore be unfairly invaded? Yep. What other way do you see around this predicament?

And I'd take it a step further. Anyone who would like to become a member of the Supreme Court has sacrificed a significant portion of their privacy. They are going to be one of the most powerful people in the country and have already submitted themselves to thorough background checks which if conducted on a random citizen without cause would also be an invasion of privacy.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #651 on: September 28, 2018, 07:44:37 AM »

Did you listen to the testimony? She did not willingly go into a room with him. You've lost credibility because you've missed a major point. She was on her way to the bathroom and was pushed from behind into a bedroom.

This post of yours isn't accurate and seems to deliberately change the testimony to fit the argument you want to make.
No, I've got better things to do than watch a 45 min vid. I am an anonymous internet poster, we all are, none of us have credibility.

He made a drunken pass at her, you know at a high school party, with, you guessed it, beer. Her vibe was 'No' and he left. She sounds like the most unviolated woman in the United States of America and this is a disgrace to every woman who has been sexually assaulted.

Did you miss the part where she testified under oath she was worried he would accidentally kill her?

I've had guys make drunken passes at me. They were generally verbal (I've also been "danced on"), and they left when I said no. I have not been sexually assaulted.  What happened to her is not even CLOSE to a "drunken pass".  It's OK for a drunk guy to talk to a drunk girl. It's not OK to trap her in a room, to hold her down, cover her mouth, and try to move her clothes.

shenlong55

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #652 on: September 28, 2018, 07:49:18 AM »
I am ready for the "Lock her up!" chants. This is defamation of character, libel and slander; she has nothing, not even her best friend. Feinstein too; she sat for months on supposed 'evidence.' Whether he gets it or not I hope he sues her and her employer goes out of business.

I don't even understand what she is getting at; she willing went into a room with him then changed her mind so she yelled; he covered her mouth while she yelled in his hear, then what...he ran away? Oh no, rubbing her shoulders, while drunkenly mumbling or whatever, you know drunk flirting; she shows her dis-appreciation of it and he stopped. Ok, for the benefit of the doubt for all this, we will go along with a strict Judeo-Christian ethic and say what he did was immoral. But seriously, all this for two weeks. I get why the media is doing this, they need ratings, something to talk about, etc; but you people?

This is loathsome.

Yes it is.

+1

hoping2retire35

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #653 on: September 28, 2018, 07:55:52 AM »
ok, something unpleasant happens to you, by someone, years ago. You have decided to keep this quite, for various reasons. Now, 35 years later you decide you should speak up. What is the point?

It wasn't bad enough to warrant an investigation at the time(for the time or dare I say even in this time). He was 17 and has likely matured, likely to not do something like this since. If he has not matured and just kept getting worse and violating women, yet that does not(credibly) seem to be happening(I am sorry but three weak accusations comes across and political/fame opportunism).  Yet, she brought this into the public light and has to give her story. She has kept up the victimization. I get why she wants to say 'Something happened to me; he is not fit for office.' But that has simply come down to her story and hers alone, from that long ago...why is everyone worked up over this???


Just admit you are upset this could change the dynamic of the Court some and he might disfavor some abortion law. If Republicans are too weak in the knees to confirm I hope Trump nominates Cruz. At this point just for the smear in the face.

Dabnasty

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #654 on: September 28, 2018, 07:59:04 AM »

Did you listen to the testimony? She did not willingly go into a room with him. You've lost credibility because you've missed a major point. She was on her way to the bathroom and was pushed from behind into a bedroom.

This post of yours isn't accurate and seems to deliberately change the testimony to fit the argument you want to make.
No, I've got better things to do than watch a 45 min vid. I am an anonymous internet poster, we all are, none of us have credibility.

He made a drunken pass at her, you know at a high school party, with, you guessed it, beer. Her vibe was 'No' and he left. She sounds like the most unviolated woman in the United States of America and this is a disgrace to every woman who has been sexually assaulted.

If that's really how you feel you wouldn't bother reading or posting here.

Based on past conversations, you have some pretty strong feelings about abortion and you're more than willing to waste some time going down the political rabbit hole. We've been there. Putting these two pieces of information together I would posit that your bias on the matter of abortion has caused you to completely ignore/avoid any details of the matter at hand while simultaneously having a very strong opinion about it. This is an intriguing example of the capabilities of the human brain. Thank you for providing yourself as an insight into this behavior. It may help us to understand how many of our fellow Americans continue to support what an outsider would view as insanity.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #655 on: September 28, 2018, 08:00:15 AM »
ok, something unpleasant happens to you, by someone, years ago. You have decided to keep this quite, for various reasons. Now, 35 years later you decide you should speak up. What is the point?

It wasn't bad enough to warrant an investigation at the time(for the time or dare I say even in this time). He was 17 and has likely matured, likely to not do something like this since. If he has not matured and just kept getting worse and violating women, yet that does not(credibly) seem to be happening(I am sorry but three weak accusations comes across and political/fame opportunism).  Yet, she brought this into the public light and has to give her story. She has kept up the victimization. I get why she wants to say 'Something happened to me; he is not fit for office.' But that has simply come down to her story and hers alone, from that long ago...why is everyone worked up over this???


Just admit you are upset this could change the dynamic of the Court some and he might disfavor some abortion law. If Republicans are too weak in the knees to confirm I hope Trump nominates Cruz. At this point just for the smear in the face.

You have it all backwards. She should bring up the attempted rape precisely because Kavanaugh is being nominated to the Supreme Court.

nereo

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #656 on: September 28, 2018, 08:01:00 AM »
@hoping2retire35.  Dr Ford has accused Judge Kavanaugh of sexual assault and attempted rape.  Period.  Whether you believe her testimony and the evidence available is up for everyone in this thread to opine on.

One thing that has been made clear from yesterday's hearings is a crime was committed.  Either Kavanaugh is guilty of sexual assault and/or attempted rape, or Ford is guilty of perjury.   Whichever one is true there are almost certainly other people involved who's sworn statements could be called into question. 

This would seem to warrant a full investigation.

hoping2retire35

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #657 on: September 28, 2018, 08:04:03 AM »
@hoping2retire35.  Dr Ford has accused Judge Kavanaugh of sexual assault and attempted rape.  Period.  Whether you believe her testimony and the evidence available is up for everyone in this thread to opine on.

One thing that has been made clear from yesterday's hearings is a crime was committed.  Either Kavanaugh is guilty of sexual assault and/or attempted rape, or Ford is guilty of perjury.   Whichever one is true there are almost certainly other people involved who's sworn statements could be called into question. 

This would seem to warrant a full investigation.
Agreed.

Edit; Actually, without a doubt, at least one of them is guilty of perjury.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 08:06:00 AM by hoping2retire35 »

PathtoFIRE

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #658 on: September 28, 2018, 08:06:46 AM »
I was very busy at work yesterday and didn't follow along with this topic, but did catch up quickly just now and I spent last night reviewing the events of yesterday.

If you continue to support Kavanaugh's nomination at this point, then your motivations appear to be purely partisan, full stop.

His opening statement, his ridiculous answers to legitimate questions, his contradictions (arguing against testimony from Mark Judge, but then deflecting questions about Judge, saying in effect 'go ask him'), his outright lies (didn't watch Ford's testimony, oh but oops, WSJ reported that he did). His belligerence, his close-mindedness, his dismissal of an entire political party, his conspiracy theories about Clinton-backers out for revenge (dude, no one cares that you gave Clinton a much harder time than you are willing to endure, they just point it out now to fully reveal your hippocracy). None of this should be tolerated in a county judge, much less an appellate judge or supreme court judge. Irregardless of these allegations, this person is not fit for the SCOTUS.

He should have his nomination pulled, he should be impeached from the DC Circuit Court, he should have any law licenses revoked, and if he is appointed to SCOTUS, he should be impeached at the first opportunity. There is no argument that changes these realities.

Dabnasty

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #659 on: September 28, 2018, 08:07:46 AM »
ok, something unpleasant happens to you, by someone, years ago. You have decided to keep this quite, for various reasons. Now, 35 years later you decide you should speak up. What is the point?

It wasn't bad enough to warrant an investigation at the time(for the time or dare I say even in this time). He was 17 and has likely matured, likely to not do something like this since. If he has not matured and just kept getting worse and violating women, yet that does not(credibly) seem to be happening(I am sorry but three weak accusations comes across and political/fame opportunism).  Yet, she brought this into the public light and has to give her story. She has kept up the victimization. I get why she wants to say 'Something happened to me; he is not fit for office.' But that has simply come down to her story and hers alone, from that long ago...why is everyone worked up over this???


Just admit you are upset this could change the dynamic of the Court some and he might disfavor some abortion law. If Republicans are too weak in the knees to confirm I hope Trump nominates Cruz. At this point just for the smear in the face.

To everyone frustrated by the erroneous nature of these posts, and assuming some of us would like to continue the intelligent conversation, I would ask that we all agree to ignore H2R35 until they can provide something more based in reality. My urge to correct them is strong and I'm sure others feel it too but there really is no point.

FrugalToque

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #660 on: September 28, 2018, 08:09:06 AM »
ok, something unpleasant happens to you, by someone, years ago.

That's pretty over the top, considering the "unpleasantness" is forcible confinement, reckless endangerment and attempted rape.

And the perpetrator wants one of the highest offices of the nation.

"Unpleasantness" indeed.  It's hard to take the rest of your post seriously if you characterize it that way.

Toque.

hoping2retire35

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #661 on: September 28, 2018, 08:09:16 AM »

Did you listen to the testimony? She did not willingly go into a room with him. You've lost credibility because you've missed a major point. She was on her way to the bathroom and was pushed from behind into a bedroom.

This post of yours isn't accurate and seems to deliberately change the testimony to fit the argument you want to make.
No, I've got better things to do than watch a 45 min vid. I am an anonymous internet poster, we all are, none of us have credibility.

He made a drunken pass at her, you know at a high school party, with, you guessed it, beer. Her vibe was 'No' and he left. She sounds like the most unviolated woman in the United States of America and this is a disgrace to every woman who has been sexually assaulted.

If that's really how you feel you wouldn't bother reading or posting here.

Based on past conversations, you have some pretty strong feelings about abortion and you're more than willing to waste some time going down the political rabbit hole. We've been there. Putting these two pieces of information together I would posit that your bias on the matter of abortion has caused you to completely ignore/avoid any details of the matter at hand while simultaneously having a very strong opinion about it. This is an intriguing example of the capabilities of the human brain. Thank you for providing yourself as an insight into this behavior. It may help us to understand how many of our fellow Americans continue to support what an outsider would view as insanity.

I was actually disappointed in his nomination and my subsequent interest in his confirmation has been delayed.

As to our credibility, yes we are all anonymous. Any credibility is only in the ideas we present, not in ourselves, or past ideas associated with 'Dabnasty' or 'Hoping2retire35'.

hoping2retire35

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #662 on: September 28, 2018, 08:11:03 AM »
ok, something unpleasant happens to you, by someone, years ago.

That's pretty over the top, considering the "unpleasantness" is forcible confinement, reckless endangerment and attempted rape.

And the perpetrator wants one of the highest offices of the nation.

"Unpleasantness" indeed.  It's hard to take the rest of your post seriously if you characterize it that way.

Toque.
I meant it in the general sense, not in what you are implying, no.

Dabnasty

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #663 on: September 28, 2018, 08:12:01 AM »

Did you listen to the testimony? She did not willingly go into a room with him. You've lost credibility because you've missed a major point. She was on her way to the bathroom and was pushed from behind into a bedroom.

This post of yours isn't accurate and seems to deliberately change the testimony to fit the argument you want to make.
No, I've got better things to do than watch a 45 min vid. I am an anonymous internet poster, we all are, none of us have credibility.

He made a drunken pass at her, you know at a high school party, with, you guessed it, beer. Her vibe was 'No' and he left. She sounds like the most unviolated woman in the United States of America and this is a disgrace to every woman who has been sexually assaulted.

If that's really how you feel you wouldn't bother reading or posting here.

Based on past conversations, you have some pretty strong feelings about abortion and you're more than willing to waste some time going down the political rabbit hole. We've been there. Putting these two pieces of information together I would posit that your bias on the matter of abortion has caused you to completely ignore/avoid any details of the matter at hand while simultaneously having a very strong opinion about it. This is an intriguing example of the capabilities of the human brain. Thank you for providing yourself as an insight into this behavior. It may help us to understand how many of our fellow Americans continue to support what an outsider would view as insanity.

I was actually disappointed in his nomination and my subsequent interest in his confirmation has been delayed.

As to our credibility, yes we are all anonymous. Any credibility is only in the ideas we present, not in ourselves, or past ideas associated with 'Dabnasty' or 'Hoping2retire35'.

Interesting. What about him was lacking in your opinion?

Cache_Stash

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #664 on: September 28, 2018, 08:13:26 AM »
@hoping2retire35.  Dr Ford has accused Judge Kavanaugh of sexual assault and attempted rape.  Period.  Whether you believe her testimony and the evidence available is up for everyone in this thread to opine on.

One thing that has been made clear from yesterday's hearings is a crime was committed.  Either Kavanaugh is guilty of sexual assault and/or attempted rape, or Ford is guilty of perjury.   Whichever one is true there are almost certainly other people involved who's sworn statements could be called into question. 

This would seem to warrant a full investigation.

Your missing another option.  They are both telling the truth and she got the person wrong.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #665 on: September 28, 2018, 08:16:15 AM »
I have seen several memes on FB that go to the effect of "On every decision for the next 40 years, Kavanaugh will remember that Democrats insulted him, his family, and his legacy."  I keep people like that on my FB list as a reminder that yes, there are plenty of people out there who think everything is a political us or them game. 

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #666 on: September 28, 2018, 08:16:27 AM »
Flake confirms he will vote to appoint.

shenlong55

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #667 on: September 28, 2018, 08:18:39 AM »
@hoping2retire35.  Dr Ford has accused Judge Kavanaugh of sexual assault and attempted rape.  Period.  Whether you believe her testimony and the evidence available is up for everyone in this thread to opine on.

One thing that has been made clear from yesterday's hearings is a crime was committed.  Either Kavanaugh is guilty of sexual assault and/or attempted rape, or Ford is guilty of perjury.   Whichever one is true there are almost certainly other people involved who's sworn statements could be called into question. 

This would seem to warrant a full investigation.

Your missing another option.  They are both telling the truth and she got the person wrong.

Or they are both telling the truth and he was too drunk to remember it.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #668 on: September 28, 2018, 08:19:43 AM »
ok, something unpleasant happens to you, by someone, years ago. You have decided to keep this quite, for various reasons. Now, 35 years later you decide you should speak up. What is the point?

It wasn't bad enough to warrant an investigation at the time(for the time or dare I say even in this time). He was 17 and has likely matured, likely to not do something like this since. If he has not matured and just kept getting worse and violating women, yet that does not(credibly) seem to be happening(I am sorry but three weak accusations comes across and political/fame opportunism).  Yet, she brought this into the public light and has to give her story. She has kept up the victimization. I get why she wants to say 'Something happened to me; he is not fit for office.' But that has simply come down to her story and hers alone, from that long ago...why is everyone worked up over this???


Just admit you are upset this could change the dynamic of the Court some and he might disfavor some abortion law. If Republicans are too weak in the knees to confirm I hope Trump nominates Cruz. At this point just for the smear in the face.

I assume you are not a woman, and if you are you have not been traumatically assaulted.
Many women do not report, for many reasons. Many women have now stood up to explain why they have not.

She stood up now because she felt it was her civic duty to say something.

Jrr85

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #669 on: September 28, 2018, 08:20:37 AM »
Two things have become abundantly clear:

1. Kavanaugh is not a good enough candidate for the Supreme Court. Even assuming he's entirely innocent of the accusations that have been made, the process has made it very clear that he can't reasonably be trusted to be impartial. There is no way he can ever be seen as a fair judge in any case involving the Democratic party. And if one of the senators on the panel ends up becoming President down the line - how on earth can Kavanaugh claim impartiality in that situation?

I'm not sure why you think it's clear that he can't be trusted to be impartial.  But it's certainly unreasonable for Democrats to treat him horribly and then claim that's a reason he's not fit.  If you are worried that hiding an allegation until the committee hearings are over, and then leaking them to the press and hashing them out publicly with a circus and also giving treating ridiculous accusations as credible on their face would prejudice a potential judge against you, maybe don't do that???  If democrats followed the process, this would be over by now and there wouldn't be this stink.  Not that there is really anything for the FBI to do for an allegation that doesn't provide a time or place or a corroborating witness, but it would have been included in the 6th background check they did.  Of course that tells you why they didn't follow the process.  They know it's a nothing burger if they follow the procedure, but if they engage in a cynical character assassination, it possibly lets them score enough political points that they can get a few vulnerable republican senators to vote against him. 


2. He's going to be confirmed anyway, because the Republican party is terrified that the Democrats will win the Senate in a few weeks and refuse to confirm any of Trump's picks. Why are they scared this will happen? Because it's exactly what they did with Merrick Garland. Reversing Roe v Wade has become the sole purpose of the entire Republican party: there is nothing they will not sell out in advancement of that goal, not even basic principles.

The Senate has another three months to get a nomination through and Kavanaugh is more or less interchangeable with other potential nominees (except that not all of them would have handled the process this well and be willing to fight) and his replacement would probably be better in the eyes of most republican voters.  Not as good as exchanging Harriet Meyers for Alito, but Kavanaugh for Amy Coney Barrett would probably be a trade most voters would like. 

The only reason to move forward with Kavanaugh is that letting it be successful would ensure that every future supreme court nominee (at least from the right) will have to face a last second character smear after the committee proceedings have wrapped up.  Why would democrats not do that if it's successful this time???  And how many good potential nominees would decline if they know they are going to be subjected to a character smear that will follow them forever.  There will be a significant minority of people in the country that go to their grave thinking Kavanaugh is a rapist and Thomas is guilty of sexual harassment, despite any lack of evidence.  For politicians looking at their next election, this is probably an ok tactice.  But for democrats as a whole, succeeding would be worse for them long term.  They'd not only likely end up with a justice that they hate more than Kavanaugh, they will also make it more likely that future nominees are partisan, because partisans who think they are fighting against an evil force in democrats will be more likely to put up with the process. 


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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #670 on: September 28, 2018, 08:20:52 AM »
@hoping2retire35.  Dr Ford has accused Judge Kavanaugh of sexual assault and attempted rape.  Period.  Whether you believe her testimony and the evidence available is up for everyone in this thread to opine on.

One thing that has been made clear from yesterday's hearings is a crime was committed.  Either Kavanaugh is guilty of sexual assault and/or attempted rape, or Ford is guilty of perjury.   Whichever one is true there are almost certainly other people involved who's sworn statements could be called into question. 

This would seem to warrant a full investigation.

Your missing another option.  They are both telling the truth and she got the person wrong.
No I am not.  She stated unequivocally that her attacker was Kavanaugh.  She said under questioning that she was '100% certain' and that there was no doubt.  She rejected claims that it could have been someone else.  It was an accusation against Kavanaugh under oath.

Or they are both telling the truth and he was too drunk to remember it.

If this is the case Kavanaugh is guilty of sexual assault and attempted rape.  A crime was still committed even if the defendant was 'too drunk' to remember it afterwards. 
That said, if that were the case Kavanaugh would still be guilty of perjury for saying he had never blacked out from drinking before.

Dabnasty

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #671 on: September 28, 2018, 08:20:59 AM »
@hoping2retire35.  Dr Ford has accused Judge Kavanaugh of sexual assault and attempted rape.  Period.  Whether you believe her testimony and the evidence available is up for everyone in this thread to opine on.

One thing that has been made clear from yesterday's hearings is a crime was committed.  Either Kavanaugh is guilty of sexual assault and/or attempted rape, or Ford is guilty of perjury.   Whichever one is true there are almost certainly other people involved who's sworn statements could be called into question. 

This would seem to warrant a full investigation.

Your missing another option.  They are both telling the truth and she got the person wrong.

In the hypothetical situation where we could know with certainty that she has the wrong person, and considering that she claimed 100% certainty that it was Kavanaugh, would she be guilty of perjury? She would in effect be lying but honestly believe her lie and given the circumstances it's fairly well established that it would be possible for her to say this will no ill intent, but how would anyone but her know her intent?

ETA: In other words, does the 100% claim make a difference in terms of her committing perjury? This is a hypothetical that gets a bit off track so feel free to ignore. I'm just thinking that she could in fact theoretically be charged with perjury.

Taking a step back I think she is intelligent enough to know that she isn't 100% certain as no one's memory is perfectly infallible, even when it comes to significant errors like this would be if she was wrong. She may actually feel she is 99.999% certain but to say so would have invited more doubt and would be a huge mistake considering all eyes are on her and everyone is looking for even the slightest chink in her armor.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 08:31:37 AM by Dabnasty »

ixtap

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #672 on: September 28, 2018, 08:21:15 AM »
So the GOP line is Ford got assaulted...just not by Kavanaugh?

No, I think that as of right now the GOP line is that this whole thing is a liberal hit job, totally fabricated for political reasons.

And part of me kind of wishes that was true, because it would look like some kind of justice for the Merrick Garland debacle if it WAS just a purely partisan hit job.  They made no bones about scuttling Garland for partisan reasons, after all, so it would be delicious irony if liberals had returned the favor.  Sadly, this looks like an actual history of assault against multiple women who want to testify under oath, and nobody willing to defend him under oath, so the odds of it being a "sham" as Lindsey Graham claims are pretty slim.

I still think he'll be confirmed without so much as an investigation into these accusations.  They are not legally required to investigate.  Republicans have total control of two of the three branches of government, and they will use that control to take control of the third branch tomorrow.  Voters have no say.  Public opinion doesn't matter.  The only thing that matters is McConnell holding together 51 republican senators despite today's testimonies, so he can basically say "We don't care if it's true or not, we're putting him on the SC anyway" and then it will happen, and nobody else can do a damn thing about it.

In the long run, the electoral consequences of that kind of abuse are probably detrimental to the GOP and to the country as a whole, but that's not exactly at the forefront of the thought processes right now.

The last statement is what I don't get all these guys just want to swing their power dicks but aren't thinking about the magnitude this could have on the future of their party.

I doubt it. Every Trump supporter on my FB feed has posted horrible things about women who accuse men of power and/or made jokes about sexual harassment and assault.

Is this what you are eluding to:

Every Trump supporter you know has posted horrible things about sexual harassment and assault therefore all Trump supporters are misogynists or worse?

Specifically, I meant that they believe this to be a liberal conspiracy, but that it wouldn't matter if it were true. Just this morning one posted that they are so proud of Trump and planning to vote for him in 2020. I don't know any of these repentant Trump voters you hear so much about.

But the ones who post actively on FB are indeed misogynistic, sadly even the single mother of two girls on the verge of womanhood.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #673 on: September 28, 2018, 08:23:01 AM »
Quote
If I was facing a bunch of serious allegations that I know are patently false, the first thing I'd be pushing for is to get someone to investigate.  The investigation would clear my name and show the people making claims for the liars they are . . . especially if they're all easily dismissed bullshit claims.

I'd be really angry and want to do everything possible to stop the investigation if I had something to hide though.

I don't know what Kavenaugh has to hide (the allegations may not be true, he just may be hiding some other dark secret) . . . but he's certainly acting like someone guilty of something.

Sounds a lot like saying those who have nothing to hide shouldn't fear mass surveillance or warantless searches...

I don't really see how.

Mass surveillance is an invasion of privacy that is executed against everyone without cause.
Warrantless searches are an invasion of privacy that are executed on targeted individuals without cause.
An investigation of sexual allegations made against someone is an invasion of privacy of both the accuser and accused with cause.

Without an investigation, we have two people making claims and not enough evidence to make a judgement.  Investigating an accusation removes some of the 'he said/she said' and gives additional information that can only benefit the party telling the truth.  I've mentioned several times that I have no idea if the allegations are true or false.  Neither do you.  That's the purpose of an investigation . . . to shed some light on the issue and get a better understanding of what really happened.  Standing in the way of this only benefits the person who is lying.

Absolutely. If You or I were accused of an attack like this we would be investigated. Is it possible that the allegations were fabricated? Sure. Would our privacy therefore be unfairly invaded? Yep. What other way do you see around this predicament?

And I'd take it a step further. Anyone who would like to become a member of the Supreme Court has sacrificed a significant portion of their privacy. They are going to be one of the most powerful people in the country and have already submitted themselves to thorough background checks which if conducted on a random citizen without cause would also be an invasion of privacy.

You or I would not be investigated.  Police would take the alleged victim's statement and possibly just put it aside because a 36 year old allegation that doesn't name a time or place is going to be low priority.  But at most, the investigation would be less than what has already taken place in this case.  They would reach out to the people identified, and when every single person identified by the alleged victim denies any knowledge, including her lifelong friend, they would close the file.  What else could they do?

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #674 on: September 28, 2018, 08:24:46 AM »
I was very busy at work yesterday and didn't follow along with this topic, but did catch up quickly just now and I spent last night reviewing the events of yesterday.

If you continue to support Kavanaugh's nomination at this point, then your motivations appear to be purely partisan, full stop.

His opening statement, his ridiculous answers to legitimate questions, his contradictions (arguing against testimony from Mark Judge, but then deflecting questions about Judge, saying in effect 'go ask him'), his outright lies (didn't watch Ford's testimony, oh but oops, WSJ reported that he did). His belligerence, his close-mindedness, his dismissal of an entire political party, his conspiracy theories about Clinton-backers out for revenge (dude, no one cares that you gave Clinton a much harder time than you are willing to endure, they just point it out now to fully reveal your hippocracy). None of this should be tolerated in a county judge, much less an appellate judge or supreme court judge. Irregardless of these allegations, this person is not fit for the SCOTUS.

He should have his nomination pulled, he should be impeached from the DC Circuit Court, he should have any law licenses revoked, and if he is appointed to SCOTUS, he should be impeached at the first opportunity. There is no argument that changes these realities.

Sure.  THe people skeptical of a 36 year old allegation with no corroborating evidence are the partisan ones.  Wanting to impeach him is just pure objectivity.  :eye roll:

sol

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #675 on: September 28, 2018, 08:25:18 AM »
h2r35 has always seemed a decent poster to me, so I did a double take on their post and deemed it a sarcastic imaginative rendering of Republican thought processes.

Although probably more accurate than sarcastic.


Apologies. Apparently every word of my thoughts as expressed in my previous post was wrong.

I was also shocked by your post defending h2r.  Decent?  What did I miss?  I'm actually kind of surprised it took this long for h2r to show up in this thread.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #676 on: September 28, 2018, 08:26:32 AM »
I was very busy at work yesterday and didn't follow along with this topic, but did catch up quickly just now and I spent last night reviewing the events of yesterday.

If you continue to support Kavanaugh's nomination at this point, then your motivations appear to be purely partisan, full stop.

His opening statement, his ridiculous answers to legitimate questions, his contradictions (arguing against testimony from Mark Judge, but then deflecting questions about Judge, saying in effect 'go ask him'), his outright lies (didn't watch Ford's testimony, oh but oops, WSJ reported that he did). His belligerence, his close-mindedness, his dismissal of an entire political party, his conspiracy theories about Clinton-backers out for revenge (dude, no one cares that you gave Clinton a much harder time than you are willing to endure, they just point it out now to fully reveal your hippocracy). None of this should be tolerated in a county judge, much less an appellate judge or supreme court judge. Irregardless of these allegations, this person is not fit for the SCOTUS.

He should have his nomination pulled, he should be impeached from the DC Circuit Court, he should have any law licenses revoked, and if he is appointed to SCOTUS, he should be impeached at the first opportunity. There is no argument that changes these realities.

Sure.  THe people skeptical of a 36 year old allegation with no corroborating evidence are the partisan ones.  Wanting to impeach him is just pure objectivity.  :eye roll:

Most democrats (senate, or just part of the general population) are asking for an investigation. 
The judiciary committee is not allowing corroborating evidence to be heard. None of the supporting statements have been put under oath.  The FBI has not reviewed all involved parties, because they have not been allowed to.

Today a senator moved to subpoena Mark Judge. The motion did not carry.  Republicans won't LET others testify. What are they scared he will say? Because what he said to Fox News was not under oath, it could be a totally different story...
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 08:29:23 AM by I'm a red panda »

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #677 on: September 28, 2018, 08:29:46 AM »
ok, something unpleasant happens to you, by someone, years ago.

That's pretty over the top, considering the "unpleasantness" is forcible confinement, reckless endangerment and attempted rape.

And the perpetrator wants one of the highest offices of the nation.

"Unpleasantness" indeed.  It's hard to take the rest of your post seriously if you characterize it that way.

Toque.

Exactly.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #678 on: September 28, 2018, 08:30:08 AM »
What else could they do?
This has been detailed out over, and over, and over again upthread.  You have constantly ignored all of the ways in which an investigation could be useful, and fixated on one possible (and frankly unlikely) outcome - that nothing new is learned.

In essence, your argument is "in investigation might not yield anything, so why bother?"  The answer is self evident: it's likely to provide either corroborative or exculpatory statements towards the divergent narratives being presented.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #679 on: September 28, 2018, 08:34:08 AM »
Most democrats (senate, or just part of the general population) are asking for an investigation. 
The judiciary committee is not allowing corroborating evidence to be heard. None of the supporting statements have been put under oath.  The FBI has not reviewed all involved parties, because they have not been allowed to.

Today a senator moved to subpoena Mark Judge. The motion did not carry.  Republicans won't LET others testify. What are they scared he will say? Because what he said to Fox News was not under oath, it could be a totally different story...

Hell, the ABA now supports a re-opening of the background check. You know, the group that gave Kavanugh a "well-qualified" designation and that Grassley and Kavanaugh kept mentioning yesterday.

And, yes, the wiki entry for "Devil's Triangle" was altered by someone in the US House.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #680 on: September 28, 2018, 08:39:22 AM »
Quote
If I was facing a bunch of serious allegations that I know are patently false, the first thing I'd be pushing for is to get someone to investigate.  The investigation would clear my name and show the people making claims for the liars they are . . . especially if they're all easily dismissed bullshit claims.

I'd be really angry and want to do everything possible to stop the investigation if I had something to hide though.

I don't know what Kavenaugh has to hide (the allegations may not be true, he just may be hiding some other dark secret) . . . but he's certainly acting like someone guilty of something.

Sounds a lot like saying those who have nothing to hide shouldn't fear mass surveillance or warantless searches...

I don't really see how.

Mass surveillance is an invasion of privacy that is executed against everyone without cause.
Warrantless searches are an invasion of privacy that are executed on targeted individuals without cause.
An investigation of sexual allegations made against someone is an invasion of privacy of both the accuser and accused with cause.

Without an investigation, we have two people making claims and not enough evidence to make a judgement.  Investigating an accusation removes some of the 'he said/she said' and gives additional information that can only benefit the party telling the truth.  I've mentioned several times that I have no idea if the allegations are true or false.  Neither do you.  That's the purpose of an investigation . . . to shed some light on the issue and get a better understanding of what really happened.  Standing in the way of this only benefits the person who is lying.

Absolutely. If You or I were accused of an attack like this we would be investigated. Is it possible that the allegations were fabricated? Sure. Would our privacy therefore be unfairly invaded? Yep. What other way do you see around this predicament?

And I'd take it a step further. Anyone who would like to become a member of the Supreme Court has sacrificed a significant portion of their privacy. They are going to be one of the most powerful people in the country and have already submitted themselves to thorough background checks which if conducted on a random citizen without cause would also be an invasion of privacy.

You or I would not be investigated.  Police would take the alleged victim's statement and possibly just put it aside because a 36 year old allegation that doesn't name a time or place is going to be low priority.  But at most, the investigation would be less than what has already taken place in this case.  They would reach out to the people identified, and when every single person identified by the alleged victim denies any knowledge, including her lifelong friend, they would close the file.  What else could they do?

Fortunately, your view of how police fail to investigate and ignore rape victims is not borne out by evidence:

https://www.elpasotimes.com/story/news/crime/2018/06/20/west-texas-priest-alleged-sexual-assault-child-during-confession-el-paso-church/716266002/

https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=91695&page=1

https://cruxnow.com/church-in-the-usa/2018/05/19/priest-arrested-in-wisconsin-after-being-accused-of-abusing-altar-boy-at-least-100-times/

There are many, many instances where the police take an old sexual assault charge seriously, investigate it, and if enough evidence is found they press charges.

former player

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #681 on: September 28, 2018, 08:39:58 AM »
h2r35 has always seemed a decent poster to me, so I did a double take on their post and deemed it a sarcastic imaginative rendering of Republican thought processes.

Although probably more accurate than sarcastic.


Apologies. Apparently every word of my thoughts as expressed in my previous post was wrong.

I was also shocked by your post defending h2r.  Decent?  What did I miss?  I'm actually kind of surprised it took this long for h2r to show up in this thread.


I've obviously not been reading the right (wrong?) threads, or not adequately tracking individual posters.  My bad, apparently, that I couldn't believe something so vile was meant seriously.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #682 on: September 28, 2018, 08:41:03 AM »
Quote
If I was facing a bunch of serious allegations that I know are patently false, the first thing I'd be pushing for is to get someone to investigate.  The investigation would clear my name and show the people making claims for the liars they are . . . especially if they're all easily dismissed bullshit claims.

I'd be really angry and want to do everything possible to stop the investigation if I had something to hide though.

I don't know what Kavenaugh has to hide (the allegations may not be true, he just may be hiding some other dark secret) . . . but he's certainly acting like someone guilty of something.

Sounds a lot like saying those who have nothing to hide shouldn't fear mass surveillance or warantless searches...

I don't really see how.

Mass surveillance is an invasion of privacy that is executed against everyone without cause.
Warrantless searches are an invasion of privacy that are executed on targeted individuals without cause.
An investigation of sexual allegations made against someone is an invasion of privacy of both the accuser and accused with cause.

Without an investigation, we have two people making claims and not enough evidence to make a judgement.  Investigating an accusation removes some of the 'he said/she said' and gives additional information that can only benefit the party telling the truth.  I've mentioned several times that I have no idea if the allegations are true or false.  Neither do you.  That's the purpose of an investigation . . . to shed some light on the issue and get a better understanding of what really happened.  Standing in the way of this only benefits the person who is lying.

Absolutely. If You or I were accused of an attack like this we would be investigated. Is it possible that the allegations were fabricated? Sure. Would our privacy therefore be unfairly invaded? Yep. What other way do you see around this predicament?

And I'd take it a step further. Anyone who would like to become a member of the Supreme Court has sacrificed a significant portion of their privacy. They are going to be one of the most powerful people in the country and have already submitted themselves to thorough background checks which if conducted on a random citizen without cause would also be an invasion of privacy.

You or I would not be investigated. Police would take the alleged victim's statement and possibly just put it aside because a 36 year old allegation that doesn't name a time or place is going to be low priority.  But at most, the investigation would be less than what has already taken place in this case.  They would reach out to the people identified, and when every single person identified by the alleged victim denies any knowledge, including her lifelong friend, they would close the file.  What else could they do?

Actually, you might be right here. But not because it would be against our rights to privacy, rather because the resources to follow up would be unjustified. In a high profile case such as this, the resources spent on an investigation would be well worth it.

Also, this doesn't counter the second point that a nominee has already given up this level of privacy.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #683 on: September 28, 2018, 08:42:57 AM »
Just let the investigation begin. Kavanaugh should have expected the mess.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #684 on: September 28, 2018, 08:43:43 AM »
Taking a step back I think she is intelligent enough to know that she isn't 100% certain as no one's memory is perfectly infallible, even when it comes to significant errors like this would be if she was wrong. She may actually feel she is 99.999% certain but to say so would have invited more doubt and would be a huge mistake considering all eyes are on her and everyone is looking for even the slightest chink in her armor.


Let me try this one: let's say someone has been married 36 years.  Do you think that their memory of the person they married would be fallible?

Some things are unarguable.  Dr Ford's memory of Kavanaugh's attempted rape appears to me to be one of them, and there is no reason to think otherwise.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #685 on: September 28, 2018, 08:51:36 AM »
Taking a step back I think she is intelligent enough to know that she isn't 100% certain as no one's memory is perfectly infallible, even when it comes to significant errors like this would be if she was wrong. She may actually feel she is 99.999% certain but to say so would have invited more doubt and would be a huge mistake considering all eyes are on her and everyone is looking for even the slightest chink in her armor.


Let me try this one: let's say someone has been married 36 years.  Do you think that their memory of the person they married would be fallible?

Some things are unarguable.  Dr Ford's memory of Kavanaugh's attempted rape appears to me to be one of them, and there is no reason to think otherwise.

I got married 14 years ago.  I don't remember all the details of the wedding.  I do know with 100% certainty the name of the person I married.  But I see him daily, so maybe that counts.  I know with 100% certainty the name of all 5 of my bridesmaids, many of whom I have not seen in more than a decade.

I was in first grade about 30 years ago. I don't remember very many details of it. I know with 100% certainty the name we called the teacher.

Being raped by someone you know is a similar thing you do not forget; I believe her if she says with 100% certainty she knows the identity of the man who raped her.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #686 on: September 28, 2018, 08:52:27 AM »
Surely if there's so much research on it, someobdy can point to a study, provide the definition they are using, and give the numbers? 

That has been done, just for you, multiple times now.  Why do you keep asking for the same information you've already been provided?  Are you deliberately ignoring it?
  No, a bunch of crap studies that are self referential back to the same BS claims have been provided.  It shouldn't be that hard to find the study that looks at actual incidents of rape and/or sexual assault, provide the definition used, and then the prevalence among different groups.  I'm not going to pour through the crap studies to try to find one that's legitimate.  If it's so well established by research, then it should be easy enough to find a study showing it that doesn't rely on sleight of hand. 

Bumping b/c I'm still curious if a study exists to back this argument up. 

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #687 on: September 28, 2018, 08:56:40 AM »
What else could they do?
This has been detailed out over, and over, and over again upthread.  You have constantly ignored all of the ways in which an investigation could be useful, and fixated on one possible (and frankly unlikely) outcome - that nothing new is learned.

In essence, your argument is "in investigation might not yield anything, so why bother?"  The answer is self evident: it's likely to provide either corroborative or exculpatory statements towards the divergent narratives being presented.
Not to be partisan(but maybe this is what is leading to the disagreement) but what would come from or even lead to an investigation? A page and reply from the last 14 pages? My point being, one of them without a doubt, is guilty of perjury, but which one? How do we know?

I believe she has the greater burden of proof and therefore he can quite easily sue her. It doesn't criminally prove anything one way or the other.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/amid-the-ford-kavanaugh-exchanges-have-the-local-police-been-asked-to-investigate/2018/09/27/7787d8c0-c297-11e8-a1f0-a4051b6ad114_story.html?utm_term=.c2e5e6523886

It has been months since Ford decided her story was relevant yet, she has not asked for the investigation.


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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #688 on: September 28, 2018, 09:01:04 AM »
What else could they do?
This has been detailed out over, and over, and over again upthread.  You have constantly ignored all of the ways in which an investigation could be useful, and fixated on one possible (and frankly unlikely) outcome - that nothing new is learned.

In essence, your argument is "in investigation might not yield anything, so why bother?"  The answer is self evident: it's likely to provide either corroborative or exculpatory statements towards the divergent narratives being presented.
Not to be partisan(but maybe this is what is leading to the disagreement) but what would come from or even lead to an investigation? A page and reply from the last 14 pages? My point being, one of them without a doubt, is guilty of perjury, but which one? How do we know?

I believe she has the greater burden of proof and therefore he can quite easily sue her. It doesn't criminally prove anything one way or the other.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/amid-the-ford-kavanaugh-exchanges-have-the-local-police-been-asked-to-investigate/2018/09/27/7787d8c0-c297-11e8-a1f0-a4051b6ad114_story.html?utm_term=.c2e5e6523886

It has been months since Ford decided her story was relevant yet, she has not asked for the investigation.

She has asked repeatedly for an investigation. Originally she wanted one as a condition to testify, but relented when it was clear an investigation would not be called for.

Where the heck are you getting your information from?

sol

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #689 on: September 28, 2018, 09:15:29 AM »
It has been months since Ford decided her story was relevant yet, she has not asked for the investigation.

You're clearly not following the news, because this is false.  Ford has been asking for an investigation since the outset.  She tried to make it a precondition for her testimony, but the republicans refused and threatened to vote to confirm without allowing her to testify.

I think it's telling that every republican is refusing to stall even three or four days in order to let an investigation happen, and then claiming "this has never been about truth" like Graham just did.  It IS about truth!  That's why there should be an investigation, to help find the truth!  How can anyone claim democrats are smearing Brett Kavanaugh's good name when all they are asking for is that the FBI be allowed to investigate, to find the turth , while republicans are pretending to be indignant while refusing to allow an investigation at all.

One side is asking for truth and the other side is trying to cover it up.  The republicans want to conceal the truth and vote to confirm despite the allegations, and yet they're accusing democrats of tearing the country apart.  What harm would a few days of delay cause, if you were really interested in clearing his name?  Why rush through while still under this cloud?  If he's innocent, let the FBI document why.

You think democrats have executed a cravenly partisan plan to delay the confirmation until after the next election, even though they're only asking for a week's delay, tops?  Does that cravenly partisan accusation maybe remind anyone in Congress of the republican's history with Merrick Garland?  At least Kavanaugh has a real reason to ask for a few meager days of delay.  With Garland, they stalled for over a year based on absolutely nothing.  So maybe don't complain too much about that one?

Most telling in yesterday's testimony, for me, was Kavanaugh's impassioned pleas of "I'm innocent!  I'm telling the truth! " immediately followed by senators asking him "do you support an investigation into these matters to clear your name" and then he fidgets uncomfortably while refusing to say yes.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 09:21:14 AM by sol »

Aelias

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #690 on: September 28, 2018, 09:18:40 AM »
I had a guy in college try to get me very drunk to have sex with me.  I sure as fuck remember who it was.  With 100% certainty.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #691 on: September 28, 2018, 09:22:59 AM »
Taking a step back I think she is intelligent enough to know that she isn't 100% certain as no one's memory is perfectly infallible, even when it comes to significant errors like this would be if she was wrong. She may actually feel she is 99.999% certain but to say so would have invited more doubt and would be a huge mistake considering all eyes are on her and everyone is looking for even the slightest chink in her armor.


Let me try this one: let's say someone has been married 36 years.  Do you think that their memory of the person they married would be fallible?

Some things are unarguable.  Dr Ford's memory of Kavanaugh's attempted rape appears to me to be one of them, and there is no reason to think otherwise.

I got married 14 years ago.  I don't remember all the details of the wedding.  I do know with 100% certainty the name of the person I married.  But I see him daily, so maybe that counts.  I know with 100% certainty the name of all 5 of my bridesmaids, many of whom I have not seen in more than a decade.

I was in first grade about 30 years ago. I don't remember very many details of it. I know with 100% certainty the name we called the teacher.

Being raped by someone you know is a similar thing you do not forget; I believe her if she says with 100% certainty she knows the identity of the man who raped her.

And I'm sure you remember how you got to your wedding, where it was, how you got home from your wedding, the date of the event, the YEAR of the event, what you father wore, and the people in your wedding will confirm that it happened......

Personally, I believe Dr. Ford was raped and drugged at that party.  It is the only thing that makes sense of her blatant lack of memory on many events of the evening.  I do not believe Kavanaugh did it, though I do believe that he partied in High School (So What?).

Democrats have openly stated that they want to stall the vote until after the midterms, and then leave the seat open hoping they win in 2020.
Video.


On what grounds would we not believe that is their motivations?

Dabnasty

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #692 on: September 28, 2018, 09:28:19 AM »
Taking a step back I think she is intelligent enough to know that she isn't 100% certain as no one's memory is perfectly infallible, even when it comes to significant errors like this would be if she was wrong. She may actually feel she is 99.999% certain but to say so would have invited more doubt and would be a huge mistake considering all eyes are on her and everyone is looking for even the slightest chink in her armor.


Let me try this one: let's say someone has been married 36 years.  Do you think that their memory of the person they married would be fallible?

Some things are unarguable.  Dr Ford's memory of Kavanaugh's attempted rape appears to me to be one of them, and there is no reason to think otherwise.

Yes, but it's so unlikely as to be ignored. It's also far less likely than forgetting an event that occurred 36 years ago. One "memory" is reinforced every day while the other becomes more distant, an odd choice for comparison. Even so I see an extremely small chance that she is mistaken, perhaps also small enough to be ignored.

Let's be clear, I'm not trying to cast doubt on her statements, just commenting on the notion of "100% certainty". It's debatable whether such a thing even exists but this isn't the place for that debate so I probably shouldn't have brought it up.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #693 on: September 28, 2018, 09:29:17 AM »
Taking a step back I think she is intelligent enough to know that she isn't 100% certain as no one's memory is perfectly infallible, even when it comes to significant errors like this would be if she was wrong. She may actually feel she is 99.999% certain but to say so would have invited more doubt and would be a huge mistake considering all eyes are on her and everyone is looking for even the slightest chink in her armor.


Let me try this one: let's say someone has been married 36 years.  Do you think that their memory of the person they married would be fallible?

Some things are unarguable.  Dr Ford's memory of Kavanaugh's attempted rape appears to me to be one of them, and there is no reason to think otherwise.

I got married 14 years ago.  I don't remember all the details of the wedding.  I do know with 100% certainty the name of the person I married.  But I see him daily, so maybe that counts.  I know with 100% certainty the name of all 5 of my bridesmaids, many of whom I have not seen in more than a decade.

I was in first grade about 30 years ago. I don't remember very many details of it. I know with 100% certainty the name we called the teacher.

Being raped by someone you know is a similar thing you do not forget; I believe her if she says with 100% certainty she knows the identity of the man who raped her.

And I'm sure you remember how you got to your wedding, where it was, how you got home from your wedding, the date of the event, the YEAR of the event, what you father wore, and the people in your wedding will confirm that it happened......

Personally, I believe Dr. Ford was raped and drugged at that party.  It is the only thing that makes sense of her blatant lack of memory on many events of the evening. I do not believe Kavanaugh did it, though I do believe that he partied in High School (So What?).

Democrats have openly stated that they want to stall the vote until after the midterms, and then leave the seat open hoping they win in 2020.
Video.


On what grounds would we not believe that is their motivations?

I completely disagree. One's wedding -- a remarkable, hopefully once in a lifetime event the details of which are planned out meticulously for months or longer -- is quite different from one otherwise unremarkable party among many in a young person's life. I certainly can't remember the details of how many parties I went to in high school, or exactly where they were, etc. They all totally blur together in those details.

I am exactly Ford's age. I remember one party when I was probably the age she was when the events occurred. It was a party where I was offered marijuana for the first time, by an older guy who almost certainly was trying to get me high in order to take advantage of me. Thankfully, I was sober enough and had my wits about me enough to decline and to get out of there. I remember him, very well. I remember that conversation, very well. But I do not remember the address of the party, or the date of the party, or how I got there, or who I had gotten there with, or how I got home.

That does not mean it didn't happen. It means that those details were unremarkable.

GuitarStv

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #694 on: September 28, 2018, 09:30:42 AM »
Surely if there's so much research on it, someobdy can point to a study, provide the definition they are using, and give the numbers? 

That has been done, just for you, multiple times now.  Why do you keep asking for the same information you've already been provided?  Are you deliberately ignoring it?
  No, a bunch of crap studies that are self referential back to the same BS claims have been provided.  It shouldn't be that hard to find the study that looks at actual incidents of rape and/or sexual assault, provide the definition used, and then the prevalence among different groups.  I'm not going to pour through the crap studies to try to find one that's legitimate.  If it's so well established by research, then it should be easy enough to find a study showing it that doesn't rely on sleight of hand. 

Bumping b/c I'm still curious if a study exists to back this argument up.

Please see the dozens of referenced studies mentioned by Gin and me.  They would be the ones that you called 'crap studies' and dismissed out of hand.

OurTown

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #695 on: September 28, 2018, 09:38:03 AM »
Okay, yesterday was pretty disgusting.  If I acted that way in a courtroom, I would be held in contempt.  He was belligerent and evasive.  Whatever you think of the allegations, yesterday's performance alone was disqualifying. 

He reminded me of some of our clients.  When we prep someone for a depo, we tell him/her to stay calm, play it straight, answer the question presented, tell the truth, don't be evasive, and don't argue with the other lawyer.  Same goes for in court testimony, even more so, with the added caveat of showing respect for the court (i.e. the judge).  Every now and then, despite our preparation, the client goes ape shit during testimony.  That's what I saw yesterday with Kav.  People who behave that way during testimony absolutely destroy their own credibility.

And don't tell me that's how a "man" is supposed to act because he is a "fighter."  Bullshit.  He's a coward.  A real man owns up to his mistakes.  He was too afraid to "man up."  Kav doesn't have the proper demeanor to be a competent attorney, much less a judge.

Dabnasty

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #696 on: September 28, 2018, 09:38:46 AM »
Taking a step back I think she is intelligent enough to know that she isn't 100% certain as no one's memory is perfectly infallible, even when it comes to significant errors like this would be if she was wrong. She may actually feel she is 99.999% certain but to say so would have invited more doubt and would be a huge mistake considering all eyes are on her and everyone is looking for even the slightest chink in her armor.


Let me try this one: let's say someone has been married 36 years.  Do you think that their memory of the person they married would be fallible?

Some things are unarguable.  Dr Ford's memory of Kavanaugh's attempted rape appears to me to be one of them, and there is no reason to think otherwise.

I got married 14 years ago.  I don't remember all the details of the wedding.  I do know with 100% certainty the name of the person I married.  But I see him daily, so maybe that counts.  I know with 100% certainty the name of all 5 of my bridesmaids, many of whom I have not seen in more than a decade.

I was in first grade about 30 years ago. I don't remember very many details of it. I know with 100% certainty the name we called the teacher.

Being raped by someone you know is a similar thing you do not forget; I believe her if she says with 100% certainty she knows the identity of the man who raped her.

And I'm sure you remember how you got to your wedding, where it was, how you got home from your wedding, the date of the event, the YEAR of the event, what you father wore, and the people in your wedding will confirm that it happened......

Personally, I believe Dr. Ford was raped and drugged at that party.  It is the only thing that makes sense of her blatant lack of memory on many events of the evening.  I do not believe Kavanaugh did it, though I do believe that he partied in High School (So What?).

Democrats have openly stated that they want to stall the vote until after the midterms, and then leave the seat open hoping they win in 2020.
Video.


On what grounds would we not believe that is their motivations?

This is not what I was getting at, not at all. She actually has a fairly detailed memory of the events and the things she does not remember are exactly the type of things no one would remember. I think her testimony is highly credible.

Why would you believe she was raped, even she doesn't think that? Are you paying attention to the story or just jumping in with some loosely founded opinions?

To everyone claiming 100% certainty of any memories, we have different definitions of 100%. Let's leave it at that or start a new thread.

shenlong55

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #697 on: September 28, 2018, 09:39:54 AM »
Democrats have openly stated that they want to stall the vote until after the midterms, and then leave the seat open hoping they win in 2020.
Video.


On what grounds would we not believe that is their motivations?

Which side is politicizing this process again?

I'm a red panda

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #698 on: September 28, 2018, 09:41:05 AM »
Taking a step back I think she is intelligent enough to know that she isn't 100% certain as no one's memory is perfectly infallible, even when it comes to significant errors like this would be if she was wrong. She may actually feel she is 99.999% certain but to say so would have invited more doubt and would be a huge mistake considering all eyes are on her and everyone is looking for even the slightest chink in her armor.


Let me try this one: let's say someone has been married 36 years.  Do you think that their memory of the person they married would be fallible?

Some things are unarguable.  Dr Ford's memory of Kavanaugh's attempted rape appears to me to be one of them, and there is no reason to think otherwise.

I got married 14 years ago.  I don't remember all the details of the wedding.  I do know with 100% certainty the name of the person I married.  But I see him daily, so maybe that counts.  I know with 100% certainty the name of all 5 of my bridesmaids, many of whom I have not seen in more than a decade.

I was in first grade about 30 years ago. I don't remember very many details of it. I know with 100% certainty the name we called the teacher.

Being raped by someone you know is a similar thing you do not forget; I believe her if she says with 100% certainty she knows the identity of the man who raped her.

And I'm sure you remember how you got to your wedding, where it was, how you got home from your wedding, the date of the event, the YEAR of the event, what you father wore, and the people in your wedding will confirm that it happened......

Personally, I believe Dr. Ford was raped and drugged at that party.  It is the only thing that makes sense of her blatant lack of memory on many events of the evening. I do not believe Kavanaugh did it, though I do believe that he partied in High School (So What?).

Democrats have openly stated that they want to stall the vote until after the midterms, and then leave the seat open hoping they win in 2020.
Video.


On what grounds would we not believe that is their motivations?

I completely disagree. One's wedding -- a remarkable, hopefully once in a lifetime event the details of which are planned out meticulously for months or longer -- is quite different from one otherwise unremarkable party among many in a young person's life. I certainly can't remember the details of how many parties I went to in high school, or exactly where they were, etc. They all totally blur together in those details.

I am exactly Ford's age. I remember one party when I was probably the age she was when the events occurred. It was a party where I was offered marijuana for the first time, by an older guy who almost certainly was trying to get me high in order to take advantage of me. Thankfully, I was sober enough and had my wits about me enough to decline and to get out of there. I remember him, very well. I remember that conversation, very well. But I do not remember the address of the party, or the date of the party, or how I got there, or who I had gotten there with, or how I got home.

That does not mean it didn't happen. It means that those details were unremarkable.

This particular party was extraordinarily remarkable for Dr. Ford. She was assaulted, during which she feared she would be killed. It wasn't just some random party.

turketron

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #699 on: September 28, 2018, 09:43:28 AM »
I do not believe Kavanaugh did it, though I do believe that he partied in High School (So What?).

So what? How about because he's lied about the partying, under oath, repeatedly? With corroborating evidence from other classmates, not just Dr. Ford.