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Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?

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Jrr85

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #550 on: September 27, 2018, 01:25:49 PM »
So maybe stop dodging the question with aspersions and counterarguments, and just answer it.  How long after a sexual assault occurs do you think is necessary before the perpetrator should be free of any consequences?  Do you believe a guilty party should be liable forever?  Until the statue of limitations for criminal prosecution runs out?  Something less than that?  Somewhere in between?
  All of these are legitimate questions.  I think rape is basically a lifetime thing.  Not saying a rapist can't be reformed and still contribute to society, but I do think that the consequences will follow them forever in some shape or fashion and that they should. 

If a high schooler is drunk and forcibly holds a girl down while she tries to get away and gropes her but does not try to rape her, that is an insight into their character that is pretty bad.  It will always cast a shadow on him.

If a high schooler drunkenly and clumsily tries to initiate a "hook-up", including completely ignoring/violating normal conventions (like trying for a kiss without any signal that it's welcome; skipping "steps" rather than consensual escalation such as going from a consensual kiss to trying to immediately unzip someones pants, etc.), but stops when the victim pushes them away or tells them to stop, that's bad, but I'm not sure that's really something that should follow them long after they've stopped putting themselves in a position to do that.  The moral gravity of trying to do something against somebody's will is not lessened because someone is under the influence.  But I do think there is a moral distinction between that and not being able to follow normal social conventions because of being under the influence.
This is where the disconnect is for me with your comments Jrr85 - What CBF has accused Kavanaugh of is attempted rape and sexual assault. Not some 'drunken groping" where consent was misunderstood.  She claims that he held her down on a bed and tried to pull off her bathing-suit.  When she tried to scream he held his hand over her mouth.  That is sexual assault and attempted rape.

Unless you believe that 'attempted rape' should not carry the same consequences as rape (as you said: the consequences will follow them forever in some shape or fashion) the only way Kavanaugh would be fit to be a federal justice is if Ford's version of events are not accurate.  There is no in-between here.

I wasn't trying to connect it to anything Kavanaugh did because I have no way of knowing what he did.  I was just talking in generalities and trying to make it in the ball park of what may have happened. 

And what Ford accused Kavanaugh of is actual sexual assault.  I'm not sure even if you take her statements as 100% factual that it constitutes attempted rape.  It's certainly possible that's what he was intending to rape her, but there doesn't seem to be a way to tell from her description.  Maybe she had a sense of what he intended and she was correct, or maybe she feared it even though an objective observer would not have classified it that way. 


Jrr85

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #551 on: September 27, 2018, 01:28:59 PM »
You are atlking about the party of Bill Clinton.  A real credibly accused rapist that was suspended from the bar for lying under oath.  The reason Franken resigned is that democrats didn't care about Franken.  He wasn't particularly helpful to them other than providing another vote in the senate, and they were going to get that vote anyway because it was extremely likely another democrat would replace him.  Bob Menendez is going to be re-elected.  Keith Ellison is likely going to be elected (granted that's domestic violence and not sexual assault I think).  People on both sides of the aisle care to a point and are willing to compromise to a point, depending on what they view as being at stake.

Clinton was suspended for lying under oath about having an affair with Lewinsky.  Was that not generally considered to be consensual (although I can see how one could reasonably argue statutory rape in the case)?

I was referring to Juanita Broderick.  I was thinking that his license was suspending for lying under oath about his actions with her in a civil suit by Paula Jones, but i think you are right it was about Lewinsky (but I think still in the civil suit by Jones?)

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #552 on: September 27, 2018, 01:55:17 PM »
So maybe stop dodging the question with aspersions and counterarguments, and just answer it.  How long after a sexual assault occurs do you think is necessary before the perpetrator should be free of any consequences?  Do you believe a guilty party should be liable forever?  Until the statue of limitations for criminal prosecution runs out?  Something less than that?  Somewhere in between?
  All of these are legitimate questions.  I think rape is basically a lifetime thing.  Not saying a rapist can't be reformed and still contribute to society, but I do think that the consequences will follow them forever in some shape or fashion and that they should. 

If a high schooler is drunk and forcibly holds a girl down while she tries to get away and gropes her but does not try to rape her, that is an insight into their character that is pretty bad.  It will always cast a shadow on him.

If a high schooler drunkenly and clumsily tries to initiate a "hook-up", including completely ignoring/violating normal conventions (like trying for a kiss without any signal that it's welcome; skipping "steps" rather than consensual escalation such as going from a consensual kiss to trying to immediately unzip someones pants, etc.), but stops when the victim pushes them away or tells them to stop, that's bad, but I'm not sure that's really something that should follow them long after they've stopped putting themselves in a position to do that.  The moral gravity of trying to do something against somebody's will is not lessened because someone is under the influence.  But I do think there is a moral distinction between that and not being able to follow normal social conventions because of being under the influence.
This is where the disconnect is for me with your comments Jrr85 - What CBF has accused Kavanaugh of is attempted rape and sexual assault. Not some 'drunken groping" where consent was misunderstood.  She claims that he held her down on a bed and tried to pull off her bathing-suit.  When she tried to scream he held his hand over her mouth.  That is sexual assault and attempted rape.

Unless you believe that 'attempted rape' should not carry the same consequences as rape (as you said: the consequences will follow them forever in some shape or fashion) the only way Kavanaugh would be fit to be a federal justice is if Ford's version of events are not accurate.  There is no in-between here.

I wasn't trying to connect it to anything Kavanaugh did because I have no way of knowing what he did.  I was just talking in generalities and trying to make it in the ball park of what may have happened. 

And what Ford accused Kavanaugh of is actual sexual assault.  I'm not sure even if you take her statements as 100% factual that it constitutes attempted rape.  It's certainly possible that's what he was intending to rape her, but there doesn't seem to be a way to tell from her description.  Maybe she had a sense of what he intended and she was correct, or maybe she feared it even though an objective observer would not have classified it that way.

Ok, but it isn't you or I who is alleging sexual assault and attempted rape.  Ford is. By definition 'attempted rape' is when the assailant did not succeed in penetrating his or her victim. Ford's allegation is that Kavanaugh and Judge pushed her into a room and locked the door.  Kavanaugh held her down on the bed and ground his hips into her pelvis.  When she tried to scream Kavanaugh covered her mouth and made it difficult to breathe, and she feared that Kavanaugh might accidentally kill her.  She states quite clearly "I believed he was going to rape me."  We also have Ramirez and Swetnick both alleging sexual assault.


Here's Ford's testimony on the event - she clearly states she thinks he was going to rape her:
Quote
Brett and Mark came into the bedroom and locked the door behind them. There was music already playing in the bedroom. It was turned up louder by either Brett or Mark once we were in the room. I was pushed onto the bed and Brett got on top of me. He began running his hands over my body and grinding his hips into me. I yelled, hoping someone downstairs might hear me, and tried to get away from him, but his weight was heavy. Brett groped me and tried to take off my clothes. He had a hard time because he was so drunk, and because I was wearing a one-piece bathing suit under my clothes. I believed he was going to rape me. I tried to yell for help. When I did, Brett put his hand over my mouth to stop me from screaming. This was what terrified me the most, and has had the most lasting impact on my life. It was hard for me to breathe, and I thought that Brett was accidentally going to kill me. Both Brett and Mark were drunkenly laughing during the attack. They both seemed to be having a good time. Mark was urging Brett on, although at times he told Brett to stop. A couple of times I made eye contact with Mark and thought he might try to help me, but he did not.

Jrr85

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #553 on: September 27, 2018, 02:09:17 PM »
So maybe stop dodging the question with aspersions and counterarguments, and just answer it.  How long after a sexual assault occurs do you think is necessary before the perpetrator should be free of any consequences?  Do you believe a guilty party should be liable forever?  Until the statue of limitations for criminal prosecution runs out?  Something less than that?  Somewhere in between?
  All of these are legitimate questions.  I think rape is basically a lifetime thing.  Not saying a rapist can't be reformed and still contribute to society, but I do think that the consequences will follow them forever in some shape or fashion and that they should. 

If a high schooler is drunk and forcibly holds a girl down while she tries to get away and gropes her but does not try to rape her, that is an insight into their character that is pretty bad.  It will always cast a shadow on him.

If a high schooler drunkenly and clumsily tries to initiate a "hook-up", including completely ignoring/violating normal conventions (like trying for a kiss without any signal that it's welcome; skipping "steps" rather than consensual escalation such as going from a consensual kiss to trying to immediately unzip someones pants, etc.), but stops when the victim pushes them away or tells them to stop, that's bad, but I'm not sure that's really something that should follow them long after they've stopped putting themselves in a position to do that.  The moral gravity of trying to do something against somebody's will is not lessened because someone is under the influence.  But I do think there is a moral distinction between that and not being able to follow normal social conventions because of being under the influence.
This is where the disconnect is for me with your comments Jrr85 - What CBF has accused Kavanaugh of is attempted rape and sexual assault. Not some 'drunken groping" where consent was misunderstood.  She claims that he held her down on a bed and tried to pull off her bathing-suit.  When she tried to scream he held his hand over her mouth.  That is sexual assault and attempted rape.

Unless you believe that 'attempted rape' should not carry the same consequences as rape (as you said: the consequences will follow them forever in some shape or fashion) the only way Kavanaugh would be fit to be a federal justice is if Ford's version of events are not accurate.  There is no in-between here.

I wasn't trying to connect it to anything Kavanaugh did because I have no way of knowing what he did.  I was just talking in generalities and trying to make it in the ball park of what may have happened. 

And what Ford accused Kavanaugh of is actual sexual assault.  I'm not sure even if you take her statements as 100% factual that it constitutes attempted rape.  It's certainly possible that's what he was intending to rape her, but there doesn't seem to be a way to tell from her description.  Maybe she had a sense of what he intended and she was correct, or maybe she feared it even though an objective observer would not have classified it that way.

Ok, but it isn't you or I who is alleging sexual assault and attempted rape.  Ford is. By definition 'attempted rape' is when the assailant did not succeed in penetrating his or her victim. Ford's allegation is that Kavanaugh and Judge pushed her into a room and locked the door.  Kavanaugh held her down on the bed and ground his hips into her pelvis.  When she tried to scream Kavanaugh covered her mouth and made it difficult to breathe, and she feared that Kavanaugh might accidentally kill her.  She states quite clearly "I believed he was going to rape me."  We also have Ramirez and Swetnick both alleging sexual assault.


Here's Ford's testimony on the event - she clearly states she thinks he was going to rape her:
Quote
Brett and Mark came into the bedroom and locked the door behind them. There was music already playing in the bedroom. It was turned up louder by either Brett or Mark once we were in the room. I was pushed onto the bed and Brett got on top of me. He began running his hands over my body and grinding his hips into me. I yelled, hoping someone downstairs might hear me, and tried to get away from him, but his weight was heavy. Brett groped me and tried to take off my clothes. He had a hard time because he was so drunk, and because I was wearing a one-piece bathing suit under my clothes. I believed he was going to rape me. I tried to yell for help. When I did, Brett put his hand over my mouth to stop me from screaming. This was what terrified me the most, and has had the most lasting impact on my life. It was hard for me to breathe, and I thought that Brett was accidentally going to kill me. Both Brett and Mark were drunkenly laughing during the attack. They both seemed to be having a good time. Mark was urging Brett on, although at times he told Brett to stop. A couple of times I made eye contact with Mark and thought he might try to help me, but he did not.

Attempted [whatever crime] isn't based on the subjective experience of the victim.  I believe it's based on what a reasonable observer would think.  There's quite a big distance to cover between grinding on somebody and forcefully penetrating them with any body part. 

PoutineLover

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #554 on: September 27, 2018, 02:12:20 PM »
So maybe stop dodging the question with aspersions and counterarguments, and just answer it.  How long after a sexual assault occurs do you think is necessary before the perpetrator should be free of any consequences?  Do you believe a guilty party should be liable forever?  Until the statue of limitations for criminal prosecution runs out?  Something less than that?  Somewhere in between?
  All of these are legitimate questions.  I think rape is basically a lifetime thing.  Not saying a rapist can't be reformed and still contribute to society, but I do think that the consequences will follow them forever in some shape or fashion and that they should. 

If a high schooler is drunk and forcibly holds a girl down while she tries to get away and gropes her but does not try to rape her, that is an insight into their character that is pretty bad.  It will always cast a shadow on him.

If a high schooler drunkenly and clumsily tries to initiate a "hook-up", including completely ignoring/violating normal conventions (like trying for a kiss without any signal that it's welcome; skipping "steps" rather than consensual escalation such as going from a consensual kiss to trying to immediately unzip someones pants, etc.), but stops when the victim pushes them away or tells them to stop, that's bad, but I'm not sure that's really something that should follow them long after they've stopped putting themselves in a position to do that.  The moral gravity of trying to do something against somebody's will is not lessened because someone is under the influence.  But I do think there is a moral distinction between that and not being able to follow normal social conventions because of being under the influence.
This is where the disconnect is for me with your comments Jrr85 - What CBF has accused Kavanaugh of is attempted rape and sexual assault. Not some 'drunken groping" where consent was misunderstood.  She claims that he held her down on a bed and tried to pull off her bathing-suit.  When she tried to scream he held his hand over her mouth.  That is sexual assault and attempted rape.

Unless you believe that 'attempted rape' should not carry the same consequences as rape (as you said: the consequences will follow them forever in some shape or fashion) the only way Kavanaugh would be fit to be a federal justice is if Ford's version of events are not accurate.  There is no in-between here.

I wasn't trying to connect it to anything Kavanaugh did because I have no way of knowing what he did.  I was just talking in generalities and trying to make it in the ball park of what may have happened. 

And what Ford accused Kavanaugh of is actual sexual assault.  I'm not sure even if you take her statements as 100% factual that it constitutes attempted rape.  It's certainly possible that's what he was intending to rape her, but there doesn't seem to be a way to tell from her description.  Maybe she had a sense of what he intended and she was correct, or maybe she feared it even though an objective observer would not have classified it that way.

Ok, but it isn't you or I who is alleging sexual assault and attempted rape.  Ford is. By definition 'attempted rape' is when the assailant did not succeed in penetrating his or her victim. Ford's allegation is that Kavanaugh and Judge pushed her into a room and locked the door.  Kavanaugh held her down on the bed and ground his hips into her pelvis.  When she tried to scream Kavanaugh covered her mouth and made it difficult to breathe, and she feared that Kavanaugh might accidentally kill her.  She states quite clearly "I believed he was going to rape me."  We also have Ramirez and Swetnick both alleging sexual assault.


Here's Ford's testimony on the event - she clearly states she thinks he was going to rape her:
Quote
Brett and Mark came into the bedroom and locked the door behind them. There was music already playing in the bedroom. It was turned up louder by either Brett or Mark once we were in the room. I was pushed onto the bed and Brett got on top of me. He began running his hands over my body and grinding his hips into me. I yelled, hoping someone downstairs might hear me, and tried to get away from him, but his weight was heavy. Brett groped me and tried to take off my clothes. He had a hard time because he was so drunk, and because I was wearing a one-piece bathing suit under my clothes. I believed he was going to rape me. I tried to yell for help. When I did, Brett put his hand over my mouth to stop me from screaming. This was what terrified me the most, and has had the most lasting impact on my life. It was hard for me to breathe, and I thought that Brett was accidentally going to kill me. Both Brett and Mark were drunkenly laughing during the attack. They both seemed to be having a good time. Mark was urging Brett on, although at times he told Brett to stop. A couple of times I made eye contact with Mark and thought he might try to help me, but he did not.

Attempted [whatever crime] isn't based on the subjective experience of the victim.  I believe it's based on what a reasonable observer would think.  There's quite a big distance to cover between grinding on somebody and forcefully penetrating them with any body part. 
Well maybe, but the distance gets smaller when he covers up her screams by turning up the music, covers her mouth with his hand, lays himself on top of her (2 years and presumably a few pounds on her) and tries to take off her clothes..

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #555 on: September 27, 2018, 02:15:49 PM »
I was almost expecting Kavanaugh to blurb out, "You can't handle the tructh!" during that opener. That certainly didn't look like impartial judicial temperament to me. And also, this whole affair is not a stain on the SCOTUS yet.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #556 on: September 27, 2018, 02:18:55 PM »
So maybe stop dodging the question with aspersions and counterarguments, and just answer it.  How long after a sexual assault occurs do you think is necessary before the perpetrator should be free of any consequences?  Do you believe a guilty party should be liable forever?  Until the statue of limitations for criminal prosecution runs out?  Something less than that?  Somewhere in between?
  All of these are legitimate questions.  I think rape is basically a lifetime thing.  Not saying a rapist can't be reformed and still contribute to society, but I do think that the consequences will follow them forever in some shape or fashion and that they should. 

If a high schooler is drunk and forcibly holds a girl down while she tries to get away and gropes her but does not try to rape her, that is an insight into their character that is pretty bad.  It will always cast a shadow on him.

If a high schooler drunkenly and clumsily tries to initiate a "hook-up", including completely ignoring/violating normal conventions (like trying for a kiss without any signal that it's welcome; skipping "steps" rather than consensual escalation such as going from a consensual kiss to trying to immediately unzip someones pants, etc.), but stops when the victim pushes them away or tells them to stop, that's bad, but I'm not sure that's really something that should follow them long after they've stopped putting themselves in a position to do that.  The moral gravity of trying to do something against somebody's will is not lessened because someone is under the influence.  But I do think there is a moral distinction between that and not being able to follow normal social conventions because of being under the influence.
This is where the disconnect is for me with your comments Jrr85 - What CBF has accused Kavanaugh of is attempted rape and sexual assault. Not some 'drunken groping" where consent was misunderstood.  She claims that he held her down on a bed and tried to pull off her bathing-suit.  When she tried to scream he held his hand over her mouth.  That is sexual assault and attempted rape.

Unless you believe that 'attempted rape' should not carry the same consequences as rape (as you said: the consequences will follow them forever in some shape or fashion) the only way Kavanaugh would be fit to be a federal justice is if Ford's version of events are not accurate.  There is no in-between here.

I wasn't trying to connect it to anything Kavanaugh did because I have no way of knowing what he did.  I was just talking in generalities and trying to make it in the ball park of what may have happened. 

And what Ford accused Kavanaugh of is actual sexual assault.  I'm not sure even if you take her statements as 100% factual that it constitutes attempted rape.  It's certainly possible that's what he was intending to rape her, but there doesn't seem to be a way to tell from her description.  Maybe she had a sense of what he intended and she was correct, or maybe she feared it even though an objective observer would not have classified it that way.

Ok, but it isn't you or I who is alleging sexual assault and attempted rape.  Ford is. By definition 'attempted rape' is when the assailant did not succeed in penetrating his or her victim. Ford's allegation is that Kavanaugh and Judge pushed her into a room and locked the door.  Kavanaugh held her down on the bed and ground his hips into her pelvis.  When she tried to scream Kavanaugh covered her mouth and made it difficult to breathe, and she feared that Kavanaugh might accidentally kill her.  She states quite clearly "I believed he was going to rape me."  We also have Ramirez and Swetnick both alleging sexual assault.


Here's Ford's testimony on the event - she clearly states she thinks he was going to rape her:
Quote
Brett and Mark came into the bedroom and locked the door behind them. There was music already playing in the bedroom. It was turned up louder by either Brett or Mark once we were in the room. I was pushed onto the bed and Brett got on top of me. He began running his hands over my body and grinding his hips into me. I yelled, hoping someone downstairs might hear me, and tried to get away from him, but his weight was heavy. Brett groped me and tried to take off my clothes. He had a hard time because he was so drunk, and because I was wearing a one-piece bathing suit under my clothes. I believed he was going to rape me. I tried to yell for help. When I did, Brett put his hand over my mouth to stop me from screaming. This was what terrified me the most, and has had the most lasting impact on my life. It was hard for me to breathe, and I thought that Brett was accidentally going to kill me. Both Brett and Mark were drunkenly laughing during the attack. They both seemed to be having a good time. Mark was urging Brett on, although at times he told Brett to stop. A couple of times I made eye contact with Mark and thought he might try to help me, but he did not.

Attempted [whatever crime] isn't based on the subjective experience of the victim.  I believe it's based on what a reasonable observer would think.  There's quite a big distance to cover between grinding on somebody and forcefully penetrating them with any body part.

Are you saying that a reasonable observer would not conclude that the events described constitute attempted rape?  You pick up the grinding but ignore everything else in her statement.

Kavanaugh is alleged to have locked the door, held her down, put her hand over her mouth so she couldn't scream and had trouble breathing, ground his genitals over hers and tried to forcibly remove her clothing.

...and yes, what the victim believes the perpetrator intends is very much taken into consideration.


I'm a red panda

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #557 on: September 27, 2018, 02:30:05 PM »
It seems to me, if the senate finds both testimoney's credible, the FBI should investigate further.
Perhaps, other witnesses should be called as well.

Or the senate can just vote tomorrow and today can be shown to be a total farce.


(Of course, I doubt the credibility of a man who has just indirectly described "drank too much" as 2-3 beers...")
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 02:33:06 PM by I'm a red panda »

runbikerun

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #558 on: September 27, 2018, 02:32:02 PM »
Even if I believed Kavanaugh completely, I'd be horrified watching him. This is not the demeanour of someone who should be trusted with a lifetime seat on the Supreme Court.

JLee

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #559 on: September 27, 2018, 02:32:35 PM »
Even if I believed Kavanaugh completely, I'd be horrified watching him. This is not the demeanour of someone who should be trusted with a lifetime seat on the Supreme Court.

Given this most recent two minutes, he's incapable of simply answering a question.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #560 on: September 27, 2018, 02:33:57 PM »
Even if I believed Kavanaugh completely, I'd be horrified watching him. This is not the demeanour of someone who should be trusted with a lifetime seat on the Supreme Court.

Agree; but I thought that before the allegations. His beliefs are all set, he has no interest in hearing cases.

JLee

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #561 on: September 27, 2018, 02:34:48 PM »
I am starting to think that Kavanaugh is trying to run out the 5 minute question clock by going on meandering stories and avoiding simple yes/no questions.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #562 on: September 27, 2018, 02:35:49 PM »
I am starting to think that Kavanaugh is trying to run out the 5 minute question clock by going on meandering stories and avoiding simple yes/no questions.

Trump did say he thought him a great person.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #563 on: September 27, 2018, 02:36:51 PM »
This focus on a calendar from 1982 is just bizarre.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #564 on: September 27, 2018, 02:37:54 PM »
Even if I believed Kavanaugh completely, I'd be horrified watching him. This is not the demeanour of someone who should be trusted with a lifetime seat on the Supreme Court.

Trump disagrees.


Donald Trump Jr.

@DonaldJTrumpJr
 I love Kavanaugh’s tone. It’s nice to see a conservative man fight for his honor and his family against a 35 year old claim with ZERO evidence and lots of holes that amounts to nothing more than a political hit job by the Dems.

Others in the GOP should take notice!

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #565 on: September 27, 2018, 02:38:22 PM »
This focus on a calendar from 1982 is just bizarre.
Not really. It documents that he was hanging out with the other person alleged to be in the room (Judge).

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #566 on: September 27, 2018, 02:41:12 PM »
Even if I believed Kavanaugh completely, I'd be horrified watching him. This is not the demeanour of someone who should be trusted with a lifetime seat on the Supreme Court.

THIS. I believe the allegations should be fully investigated, & in no way want Kavanaugh on the court because of his political perspective, but leaving the allegations completely behind for a moment, his behavior today has demonstrated that he should have never been considered as a candidate.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #567 on: September 27, 2018, 02:42:33 PM »
Even if I believed Kavanaugh completely, I'd be horrified watching him. This is not the demeanour of someone who should be trusted with a lifetime seat on the Supreme Court.

THIS. I believe the allegations should be fully investigated, & in no way want Kavanaugh on the court because of his political perspective, but leaving the allegations completely behind for a moment, his behavior today has demonstrated that he should have never been considered as a candidate.

Yep.

And it gives cover to Collins and Murkowski. This guy's way too belligerent to be a SC Justice.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #568 on: September 27, 2018, 02:49:47 PM »
Here's Ford's testimony on the event - she clearly states she thinks he was going to rape her:
Quote
Brett and Mark came into the bedroom and locked the door behind them. There was music already playing in the bedroom. It was turned up louder by either Brett or Mark once we were in the room. I was pushed onto the bed and Brett got on top of me. He began running his hands over my body and grinding his hips into me. I yelled, hoping someone downstairs might hear me, and tried to get away from him, but his weight was heavy. Brett groped me and tried to take off my clothes. He had a hard time because he was so drunk, and because I was wearing a one-piece bathing suit under my clothes. I believed he was going to rape me. I tried to yell for help. When I did, Brett put his hand over my mouth to stop me from screaming. This was what terrified me the most, and has had the most lasting impact on my life. It was hard for me to breathe, and I thought that Brett was accidentally going to kill me. Both Brett and Mark were drunkenly laughing during the attack. They both seemed to be having a good time. Mark was urging Brett on, although at times he told Brett to stop. A couple of times I made eye contact with Mark and thought he might try to help me, but he did not.

Attempted [whatever crime] isn't based on the subjective experience of the victim.  I believe it's based on what a reasonable observer would think.  There's quite a big distance to cover between grinding on somebody and forcefully penetrating them with any body part. 

Are you reading the same thing that I am?

- Two people were involved in the attack
- Locked bedroom door
- Loud music turned up to drown out screams
- Victim is knocked down
- Assailant #1 climbs on top
- Sexual grinding
- Groping
- Assailant attempts to tear clothing away, but is drunk and has difficulty removing bathing suit
- Victim screams, silenced by assailant covering her mouth
- Victim can't breathe

Does the above not pretty clearly qualify as attempted rape?  If not, what would need to happen for it to qualify?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 02:52:15 PM by GuitarStv »

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #569 on: September 27, 2018, 02:50:56 PM »
Graham is off the rails.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #570 on: September 27, 2018, 02:51:52 PM »
Refusing to support an FBI investigation does not look good for Kavanaugh.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #571 on: September 27, 2018, 02:53:36 PM »

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #572 on: September 27, 2018, 02:53:57 PM »
Refusing to support an FBI investigation does not look good for Kavanaugh.

Neither does "I like beer. I like beer. Do you like beer, Senator?"

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #573 on: September 27, 2018, 02:55:12 PM »
"Question that Kavanaugh doesn't want to answer:"

"Senator, I was at the top of my class, and did all these great things."

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #574 on: September 27, 2018, 03:03:07 PM »
"Question that Kavanaugh doesn't want to answer:"

"Senator, I was at the top of my class, and did all these great things."

"Swimmer at Stanford"

Oh wait getting things mixed up..

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #575 on: September 27, 2018, 03:03:32 PM »
Even if I believed Kavanaugh completely, I'd be horrified watching him. This is not the demeanour of someone who should be trusted with a lifetime seat on the Supreme Court.

THIS. I believe the allegations should be fully investigated, & in no way want Kavanaugh on the court because of his political perspective, but leaving the allegations completely behind for a moment, his behavior today has demonstrated that he should have never been considered as a candidate.

This is ludicrous.  If he was calm, people would be saying somebody falsely accused of being a serial rapist would be mad and him being calm is just more evidence that he's a psychopath.

He is being subjected to a process where he is accused of an attempted rape where the accuser doesn't know when or where it happened nor can she identify how she got to or from the place and also can't identify another person that can corroborate that the gathering took place. 

He's being accused by someone who admitted that she didn't know who potentially put their penis in her face, but then after spending 6 days thinking about it decided that she was sure it was him but she can't find anybody else that witnessed the event.

A person who swears he was part of a gang rape ring (but can't identify any other witnesses) 

And then an anonymous letter from the supposed mother of a friend of an ex girlfriend claims Kavanaugh assaulted hsi girlfriend outside of a restaurant (which his girlfriend of the time, who is now a federal judge, denies ever happened).

Fords are the only ones that aren't ridiculous on their face.  And the press and democrat politicians and others are just acting like those are perfectly normal and credible allegations and he has to deal with his daughter hearing all the people slander him.  Of course he is furious. 

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #576 on: September 27, 2018, 03:06:16 PM »
This is ludicrous.  If he was calm, people would be saying somebody falsely accused of being a serial rapist would be mad and him being calm is just more evidence that he's a psychopath.

He is being subjected to a process where he is accused of an attempted rape where the accuser doesn't know when or where it happened nor can she identify how she got to or from the place and also can't identify another person that can corroborate that the gathering took place. 

He's being accused by someone who admitted that she didn't know who potentially put their penis in her face, but then after spending 6 days thinking about it decided that she was sure it was him but she can't find anybody else that witnessed the event.

A person who swears he was part of a gang rape ring (but can't identify any other witnesses) 

I have this crazy idea.

Why don't we let the FBI do an investigation?

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #577 on: September 27, 2018, 03:08:39 PM »
If I was facing a bunch of serious allegations that I know are patently false, the first thing I'd be pushing for is to get someone to investigate.  The investigation would clear my name and show the people making claims for the liars they are . . . especially if they're all easily dismissed bullshit claims.

I'd be really angry and want to do everything possible to stop the investigation if I had something to hide though.

I don't know what Kavenaugh has to hide (the allegations may not be true, he just may be hiding some other dark secret) . . . but he's certainly acting like someone guilty of something.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #578 on: September 27, 2018, 03:12:25 PM »
If I was facing a bunch of serious allegations that I know are patently false, the first thing I'd be pushing for is to get someone to investigate.  The investigation would clear my name and show the people making claims for the liars they are . . . especially if they're all easily dismissed bullshit claims.

I'd be really angry and want to do everything possible to stop the investigation if I had something to hide though.

I don't know what Kavenaugh has to hide (the allegations may not be true, he just may be hiding some other dark secret) . . . but he's certainly acting like someone guilty of something.

That was a bizarre exchange. He evaded over and over Klobuchar's question about why he doesn't just ask to have the background check be re-opened.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #579 on: September 27, 2018, 03:12:33 PM »
Even if I believed Kavanaugh completely, I'd be horrified watching him. This is not the demeanour of someone who should be trusted with a lifetime seat on the Supreme Court.

THIS. I believe the allegations should be fully investigated, & in no way want Kavanaugh on the court because of his political perspective, but leaving the allegations completely behind for a moment, his behavior today has demonstrated that he should have never been considered as a candidate.

This is ludicrous.  If he was calm, people would be saying somebody falsely accused of being a serial rapist would be mad and him being calm is just more evidence that he's a psychopath.

He is being subjected to a process where he is accused of an attempted rape where the accuser doesn't know when or where it happened nor can she identify how she got to or from the place and also can't identify another person that can corroborate that the gathering took place. 

He's being accused by someone who admitted that she didn't know who potentially put their penis in her face, but then after spending 6 days thinking about it decided that she was sure it was him but she can't find anybody else that witnessed the event.

A person who swears he was part of a gang rape ring (but can't identify any other witnesses) 

And then an anonymous letter from the supposed mother of a friend of an ex girlfriend claims Kavanaugh assaulted hsi girlfriend outside of a restaurant (which his girlfriend of the time, who is now a federal judge, denies ever happened).

Fords are the only ones that aren't ridiculous on their face.  And the press and democrat politicians and others are just acting like those are perfectly normal and credible allegations and he has to deal with his daughter hearing all the people slander him.  Of course he is furious.
This is of course why everyone was so supportive of Peter Strozk's testy testimony, correct?

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #580 on: September 27, 2018, 03:14:43 PM »
If I was facing a bunch of serious allegations that I know are patently false, the first thing I'd be pushing for is to get someone to investigate.  The investigation would clear my name and show the people making claims for the liars they are . . . especially if they're all easily dismissed bullshit claims.

I'd be really angry and want to do everything possible to stop the investigation if I had something to hide though.

I don't know what Kavenaugh has to hide (the allegations may not be true, he just may be hiding some other dark secret) . . . but he's certainly acting like someone guilty of something.


He prefers the alternative facts that he's willing to answer, "right here & right now".

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #581 on: September 27, 2018, 03:16:24 PM »
If I was facing a bunch of serious allegations that I know are patently false, the first thing I'd be pushing for is to get someone to investigate.  The investigation would clear my name and show the people making claims for the liars they are . . . especially if they're all easily dismissed bullshit claims.

I'd be really angry and want to do everything possible to stop the investigation if I had something to hide though.

I don't know what Kavenaugh has to hide (the allegations may not be true, he just may be hiding some other dark secret) . . . but he's certainly acting like someone guilty of something.

Yuuuuup.

He stands in stark contrast to Ford, who answered every question to the best of her ability.  Kavanaugh has continuously evaded and filibustered his way through this process.

bacchi

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #582 on: September 27, 2018, 03:17:04 PM »
Is a "devil's triangle" a drinking game?

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Devils%20Triangle

Not anymore. Was it a drinking game in the early 80s?

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #583 on: September 27, 2018, 03:18:42 PM »
This is ludicrous.  If he was calm, people would be saying somebody falsely accused of being a serial rapist would be mad and him being calm is just more evidence that he's a psychopath.

He is being subjected to a process where he is accused of an attempted rape where the accuser doesn't know when or where it happened nor can she identify how she got to or from the place and also can't identify another person that can corroborate that the gathering took place. 

He's being accused by someone who admitted that she didn't know who potentially put their penis in her face, but then after spending 6 days thinking about it decided that she was sure it was him but she can't find anybody else that witnessed the event.

A person who swears he was part of a gang rape ring (but can't identify any other witnesses) 

I have this crazy idea.

Why don't we let the FBI do an investigation?

Exactly, except I'm also sympathetic to the woman who came forward, who had no interest or intention of having her name released, and has zero upside from this entire situation. Let the FBI investigate. If she's a liar, well then, that will be exposed. If there's even a small chance that she's correct, a lifetime appointment to the Supreme Court feels worthy of double checking.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #584 on: September 27, 2018, 03:19:52 PM »
If I was facing a bunch of serious allegations that I know are patently false, the first thing I'd be pushing for is to get someone to investigate.  The investigation would clear my name and show the people making claims for the liars they are . . . especially if they're all easily dismissed bullshit claims.

I'd be really angry and want to do everything possible to stop the investigation if I had something to hide though.

I don't know what Kavenaugh has to hide (the allegations may not be true, he just may be hiding some other dark secret) . . . but he's certainly acting like someone guilty of something.

+1

Throwing a temper tantrum is not going to convince grown ups you are innocent. He should be saying "absolutely investigate me!! Investigate everything, because I have nothing to hide." It's the best way to clear his name and make his accusers and Dems look foolish. 

BUT we live in bizarro world where up is down, left is right and "grab em by the pussy" is just normal locker room talk. He doesn't want an investigation anymore than Trump wants an investigation into Russian meddling. 

He couldn't even answer the simple question of weather he drank too much so as to not remember parts of the night before. He kept repeating "have you?"

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #585 on: September 27, 2018, 03:20:52 PM »
Well, he certainly isn't doing much to dissuade the allegations of being a belligerent drunk.

JLee

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #586 on: September 27, 2018, 03:22:22 PM »
Well, he certainly isn't doing much to dissuade the allegations of being a belligerent drunk.

He's belligerent sober..imagine when drunk!

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #587 on: September 27, 2018, 03:36:26 PM »
Well, he certainly isn't doing much to dissuade the allegations of being a belligerent drunk.

He's belligerent sober..imagine when drunk!

The world needs to see this exchange.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #588 on: September 27, 2018, 03:45:29 PM »
BUT we live in bizarro world where up is down, left is right and "grab em by the pussy" is just normal locker room talk. He doesn't want an investigation anymore than Trump wants an investigation into Russian meddling. 

I don't think it's bizarro world at all, I think it's carefully calculated positioning.

Whenever a politician admits they did something wrong, some people from their own party call for a resignation no matter how apologetic you are.  Al Franken came out and said it was a stupid joke that he recognizes was inappropriate, but by the standards of the era it seemed normal to him.  He said he had grown as a man since then, had reached out to his victim and apologized in every way possible, and had devoted his career to advancing women's rights, and yet he was still tossed from the Senate.

Trump, by contrast, continues to deny everything and they made him potus for it.  He still denies the porn star affair despite his recorded conversations about it, and that denial is enough for his most dyed-in-the-wool supporters to retain a kernel of doubt, and presume his innocence.  The lesson we have taught all politicians is to deny deny deny at all costs.  There can be no redemption, no forgiveness, only punishment if you admit the tiniest sliver of truth in the accusations.  Kavanaugh has been watching this story unfold for the past three years and he knows the score.  Feinstein could produce a photo of his penis swinging around a frat party and he would still claim to be a choir boy having his character assassinated.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #589 on: September 27, 2018, 03:47:10 PM »
It's clear he is getting confirmed tomorrow. The only way the FBI investigates is if Trump calls for it, despite what Grassley thinks.  It's not happening.

The few republicans who might be on the fence won't cross party lines. They are all spineless.

But his testimony was horrific. There will be independent voters out there this sways. It will still do generations of damage to rights of minority groups though

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #590 on: September 27, 2018, 03:56:52 PM »
It's clear he is getting confirmed tomorrow. The only way the FBI investigates is if Trump calls for it, despite what Grassley thinks.  It's not happening.

The few republicans who might be on the fence won't cross party lines. They are all spineless.

But his testimony was horrific. There will be independent voters out there this sways. It will still do generations of damage to rights of minority groups though

It's somewhat mind-boggling to me that the chairman of the committee that's supposed to be investigating this is so blatantly clear that he doesn't give a fuck what the committee comes out to - that they are going to proceed with the confirmation anyway.

sol

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #591 on: September 27, 2018, 04:01:12 PM »
It's clear he is getting confirmed tomorrow.

Yea, watching republican senators apologize to a man accused of multiple accounts of sexual misconduct was kind of gross.  "I'm sorry your history of assault had to be trotted out in front of your family!"  Fuck that, man, if you do this kind of shit everyone deserves to know.  You fingered a drunk chick when you were 17?  You don't ever get to be a supreme court justice.  You have an angry ex who thinks you raped her?  You don't ever get to be a supreme court justice either.  It's honestly not that hard to find nominees who don't have these problems.

Obama never had sexual assault allegations.  Neither did Gorsuch, or Roberts.  It's not like sexual assault allegations fall out of the sky.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #592 on: September 27, 2018, 04:48:18 PM »
So the GOP line is Ford got assaulted...just not by Kavanaugh?

ixtap

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #593 on: September 27, 2018, 04:57:00 PM »
So the GOP line is Ford got assaulted...just not by Kavanaugh?

It is a two pronged attack. Basically, if she had been assaulted, she wouldn't have known who it was.

After all, it is also a liberal hit job.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #594 on: September 27, 2018, 05:03:12 PM »
So the GOP line is Ford got assaulted...just not by Kavanaugh?

No, I think that as of right now the GOP line is that this whole thing is a liberal hit job, totally fabricated for political reasons.

And part of me kind of wishes that was true, because it would look like some kind of justice for the Merrick Garland debacle if it WAS just a purely partisan hit job.  They made no bones about scuttling Garland for partisan reasons, after all, so it would be delicious irony if liberals had returned the favor.  Sadly, this looks like an actual history of assault against multiple women who want to testify under oath, and nobody willing to defend him under oath, so the odds of it being a "sham" as Lindsey Graham claims are pretty slim.

I still think he'll be confirmed without so much as an investigation into these accusations.  They are not legally required to investigate.  Republicans have total control of two of the three branches of government, and they will use that control to take control of the third branch tomorrow.  Voters have no say.  Public opinion doesn't matter.  The only thing that matters is McConnell holding together 51 republican senators despite today's testimonies, so he can basically say "We don't care if it's true or not, we're putting him on the SC anyway" and then it will happen, and nobody else can do a damn thing about it.

In the long run, the electoral consequences of that kind of abuse are probably detrimental to the GOP and to the country as a whole, but that's not exactly at the forefront of the thought processes right now.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #595 on: September 27, 2018, 05:17:33 PM »

So the GOP line is Ford got assaulted...just not by Kavanaugh?
I think the lines is that they don't care if Kavanaugh assaulted Ford, the situational politics of the GOP do not allow them to care.
I think  that they are scared of the midterms, and have created a situation (by their own doing) where they have political capital invested in Kavanaugh and can't see a way to drop him. What I read in Graham's unhinged diatribe was, "what if everyone with skeletons in their closet can't be confirmed?" To this I say, "Good." If they really cared about the allegations they would support an investigation. They don't. And they don't want to set the precedent that this could be disqualifying, just like with Thomas. Irrespective of left-right politics I think this is shameful, not to mention how tone deaf and stupid it is in the face of our society at large.

sol

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #596 on: September 27, 2018, 05:25:54 PM »
"what if everyone with skeletons in their closet can't be confirmed?"

Today someone reminded me that Reagan had to withdraw the nomination of Judge Doug Ginsburg to the Supreme Court because he once smoked pot.  The scandal!  Such character flaws!  Moral decay!  Unfit to serve!

But hey, at least he didn't hold his hands over the mouth of screaming rape victim!

Let's remember that approximately 50% of the self-identified republicans in the country today think Kavanaugh should be confirmed even if all of the allegations against him are true.  They're the party of family values!  And what screams "family values" quite like nominating a man who was a member of the "Tit and Clit" club at Yale and has at least three known credible accusations of sexual misconduct against women to a position where he has promised to overturn women's rights?  That's family friendly, right?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 07:04:04 PM by sol »

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #597 on: September 27, 2018, 05:57:06 PM »
"what if everyone with skeletons in their closet can't be confirmed?"

Today someone reminded me that Reagan had to withdraw the nomination of Judge Doug Ginsburg to the Supreme Court because he once smoked pot.  The scandal!  Such character flaws!  Moral decay!  Unfit to serve!

But hey, at least he didn't hold his hands over the mouth of screaming rape victim!

Let's remember that approximately 50% of the self-identified republicans in the country today think Kavanaugh should be confirmed even if all of the allegations against him are true.  They're the party of family values!

Who is the rape victim?

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #598 on: September 27, 2018, 06:02:29 PM »
So the GOP line is Ford got assaulted...just not by Kavanaugh?

No, I think that as of right now the GOP line is that this whole thing is a liberal hit job, totally fabricated for political reasons.

And part of me kind of wishes that was true, because it would look like some kind of justice for the Merrick Garland debacle if it WAS just a purely partisan hit job.  They made no bones about scuttling Garland for partisan reasons, after all, so it would be delicious irony if liberals had returned the favor.  Sadly, this looks like an actual history of assault against multiple women who want to testify under oath, and nobody willing to defend him under oath, so the odds of it being a "sham" as Lindsey Graham claims are pretty slim.

I still think he'll be confirmed without so much as an investigation into these accusations.  They are not legally required to investigate.  Republicans have total control of two of the three branches of government, and they will use that control to take control of the third branch tomorrow.  Voters have no say.  Public opinion doesn't matter.  The only thing that matters is McConnell holding together 51 republican senators despite today's testimonies, so he can basically say "We don't care if it's true or not, we're putting him on the SC anyway" and then it will happen, and nobody else can do a damn thing about it.

In the long run, the electoral consequences of that kind of abuse are probably detrimental to the GOP and to the country as a whole, but that's not exactly at the forefront of the thought processes right now.

The last statement is what I don't get all these guys just want to swing their power dicks but aren't thinking about the magnitude this could have on the future of their party.

sol

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #599 on: September 27, 2018, 06:03:00 PM »
Who is the rape victim?

Oh so sorry, I meant attempted rape victim.

Does that make all of this go away, for you?  Because she was able to break free?