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Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?

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DarkandStormy

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #450 on: September 26, 2018, 05:46:07 PM »
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna913581

A fourth accuser, from 1998, has come forward.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #451 on: September 26, 2018, 05:47:20 PM »
Surely someone on the FedSoc list (which is still, by itself, ridiculous) doesn't have these kinds of skeletons. Nominate Hardiman and call it a day.

PathtoFIRE

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #452 on: September 26, 2018, 05:54:43 PM »
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna913581

A fourth accuser, from 1998, has come forward.

He’s toast. Shut the thread down. Hope an attempt at the SCOTUS was worth losing his family, professional respect, and (hopefully) his current job.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #453 on: September 26, 2018, 05:55:43 PM »
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna913581

A fourth accuser, from 1998, has come forward.

He’s toast. Shut the thread down. Hope an attempt at the SCOTUS was worth losing his family, professional respect, and (hopefully) his current job.

Gotta find a republican senator who cares first...
Mine sure don't. (I sure as hell didn't vote for them, btw. They basically don't consider my area of the state part of their constituency)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 05:59:56 PM by I'm a red panda »

nereo

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #454 on: September 26, 2018, 05:57:23 PM »
No, I think the real story here is that republican Senators DO think they allegations are true, and they are trying to preserve what little political cover they still have by sticking their fingers in their ears so they can plead ignorance long enough to ramrod through a lifetime appointment.

+1

I think there's a great deal of willful ignorance and plausable deniability.  If there is no investigation - if other witnesses are not called to testify and if the committee votes before (god forbid) yet more individuals come forward to question his character those GOP senators who vote for Kavanaugh can forever say "we didn't know the full story! These additional testimonies didn't come out until later! When I cast my vote it was just a he-said/she-said and he was a federal jodge with years on the bench"

In other words, the rush is out of fear of what might come out in the coming weeks, not about whether they believe Kavanaugh over Ford/Ramirez/Swetnick."  There was a time when Roy more had just one accuser with limited hard evidence, then two, then three...  That's still fresh in the GOP's psyche.  I'm certain there are some praying this doesn't go the same way (and are actively pushing the timeline in the hopes that it won't... to 'control what they can control', so to speak)

intellectsucks

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #455 on: September 26, 2018, 06:06:55 PM »

Out of curiosity, has anyone here been part of a social group or known a social group in the U.S., where gang rape would be no big deal?  I'm going out on a limb here because I don't know what the early 80's in Maryland were like and I get that attitudes were more permissive, especially with respect to sex after drinking or drugs, but I just can't imagine that is was so different that high school girls were just like, "damn, another girl getting gang raped.  Maybe i should do some....oooh, I need a refill on my punch.
 Someone else can deal with the gang rape."
 

Not in the USA, but here in the UK there have been multiple convictions for gang rape in recent years, with youngsters of both sexes being "groomed" into drink and drugs and accepting what happened to them, and with people in authority (social workers, police) expressing for years the same sort denial and disbelief that you are expressing here.

Do you think the USA is so special that it can't happen there?

There is a reason I limited it to the USA.  I'm sure it is much more plausible in some developing countries and in certain insular immigrant communities in developed countries.  And we will probably have the same issues pop up in the U.S.A. 

But I was under the impression that people in authority in the UK weren't in disbelief, but it was more of a combination of the authorities thinking the victims were trash that probably asked for it and/or being concerned about being viewed as anti-muslim/racist/xenophobic if they accused the perpetrators of gang rape and running sex rings.

Given that the stats show that more than 1 in 5 women who are raped in the US are gang raped, and that rapes are more common by fraternity men than others . . . why do you find it so unbelievable that a gang rape (or multiple gang rapes) would happen at Kavenaugh's fraternity?

I know it's the second time I've asked, but you ignored the question last go around.
Surely you have statistics and studies that you can link to back up such a claim.  Smearing a whole group of people without evidence is not an effective technique for debate or life.

A fair amount of research exists indicating this to be true.  Some of the studies regarding this topic  were referenced and summarized by another poster quite a while ago in this thread (post 171 I believe).

Putting forth an uninformed opinion without first paying attention to the conversation is not an effective technique for debate or life.
I'll cop to it, I didn't read the whole thread.  However the post you mentioned makes a very compelling case that fraternity members have a strong correlation with having unorthodox OPINIONS regarding rape, but does not discuss the actual INCIDENCE of rape being committed by fraternity members.  Even if it did draw that connection, that has absolutely no bearing on whether or not Brett kavanaugh attempted rape against Ms Ford.

If someone made the outrageous claim that you have (since he's a member of this group, it means he's more likely to rape) against any other group you'd be calling them a racist xenophobe.

MasterStache

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #456 on: September 26, 2018, 06:07:33 PM »
No, I think the real story here is that republican Senators DO think they allegations are true, and they are trying to preserve what little political cover they still have by sticking their fingers in their ears so they can plead ignorance long enough to ramrod through a lifetime appointment.

+1

Trump certainly agrees. He literally stated they should have just pushed him through. Remember "only the best and brightest." 

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #457 on: September 26, 2018, 06:11:32 PM »
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna913581

A fourth accuser, from 1998, has come forward.

So at this point he's about 32 years old and still getting drunk and violently attacking women

Glenstache

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #458 on: September 26, 2018, 06:37:47 PM »
If someone made the outrageous claim that you have (since he's a member of this group, it means he's more likely to rape) against any other group you'd be calling them a racist xenophobe.

I think this is an important point. The social groups that Kavanaugh willingly chose to associate with have these well-documented behaviors. As a group, that is not the same as "any other group you'd be calling them a racist xenophobe." As a rather extreme is example: It would absolutely be incorrect to say that all southerners are racists. It would be an okay grouping to say that a member of the Klan is much more likely to have been involved in a racist hate crime. Does membership in Klan guarantee that it happened? of course not. But it is a good indicator of character.

I personally have a number of good friends who were in fraternities where these behaviors would not be tolerated and they were solid, good people. I also know that there are a lot of fraternities where bad behavior is commonplace, and these types of sexist things occur. What is germane about his membership in the specific social organizations (including fraternities) that he chose to join is that the overall behavors of those specific organizations is at odds with his portrayal of himself as an angel. As nereo said above, it is circumstantial. The credibility would come from actual investigation of the allegations. Why is Kavanaugh only going on Fox news to repeat scripted responses instead of asking for investigation? I think the points made by sol and others above that the GOP just wants this done before there can be a full review (of the allegations and his record for that matter).

GuitarStv

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #459 on: September 26, 2018, 06:38:00 PM »

Out of curiosity, has anyone here been part of a social group or known a social group in the U.S., where gang rape would be no big deal?  I'm going out on a limb here because I don't know what the early 80's in Maryland were like and I get that attitudes were more permissive, especially with respect to sex after drinking or drugs, but I just can't imagine that is was so different that high school girls were just like, "damn, another girl getting gang raped.  Maybe i should do some....oooh, I need a refill on my punch.
 Someone else can deal with the gang rape."
 

Not in the USA, but here in the UK there have been multiple convictions for gang rape in recent years, with youngsters of both sexes being "groomed" into drink and drugs and accepting what happened to them, and with people in authority (social workers, police) expressing for years the same sort denial and disbelief that you are expressing here.

Do you think the USA is so special that it can't happen there?

There is a reason I limited it to the USA.  I'm sure it is much more plausible in some developing countries and in certain insular immigrant communities in developed countries.  And we will probably have the same issues pop up in the U.S.A. 

But I was under the impression that people in authority in the UK weren't in disbelief, but it was more of a combination of the authorities thinking the victims were trash that probably asked for it and/or being concerned about being viewed as anti-muslim/racist/xenophobic if they accused the perpetrators of gang rape and running sex rings.

Given that the stats show that more than 1 in 5 women who are raped in the US are gang raped, and that rapes are more common by fraternity men than others . . . why do you find it so unbelievable that a gang rape (or multiple gang rapes) would happen at Kavenaugh's fraternity?

I know it's the second time I've asked, but you ignored the question last go around.
Surely you have statistics and studies that you can link to back up such a claim.  Smearing a whole group of people without evidence is not an effective technique for debate or life.

A fair amount of research exists indicating this to be true.  Some of the studies regarding this topic  were referenced and summarized by another poster quite a while ago in this thread (post 171 I believe).

Putting forth an uninformed opinion without first paying attention to the conversation is not an effective technique for debate or life.
I'll cop to it, I didn't read the whole thread.  However the post you mentioned makes a very compelling case that fraternity members have a strong correlation with having unorthodox OPINIONS regarding rape, but does not discuss the actual INCIDENCE of rape being committed by fraternity members.  Even if it did draw that connection, that has absolutely no bearing on whether or not Brett kavanaugh attempted rape against Ms Ford.

If someone made the outrageous claim that you have (since he's a member of this group, it means he's more likely to rape) against any other group you'd be calling them a racist xenophobe.


There exist reams of easily found information on this subject.

Quote
"Bohmer and Parrot (1993) assert that "the men who are most likely to rape in college are fraternity pledges" (p. 21). Boumil, Friedman, and Taylor (1993) suggest that a "desire for male bonding, as indicated by the popularity of fraternities" can lead in combination with other factors to coercive sexual acts (p. 122). Warshaw (1988) similarly gives a number of examples of gang rapes taking place in fraternity houses, although noting that "more one-on-one date rapes and acquaintance rapes occur in fraternity houses than do gang acquaintance rapes" (p. 104). Martin and Hummer (1989), in an article that is widely cited and reprinted (e.g., Bart & Moran, 1993; Thio & Calhoun, 1995), explain that fraternity members are more likely to have a narrow conception of masculinity, espouse group secrecy, and sexually objectify women. However, perhaps the most cited author of all on the subject is Sanday (1990), who describes in detail the psychological processes that lead fraternity pledges to a position that facilitates rape."
- http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/Readings/fraternityMyths.html

Quote
"Research indicates that sexual victimization occurs at increased rates during fraternity parties (Gross-bard, Geisner, Neighbors, Kilmer, & Larimer,2007; McMahon, 2010) and after fraternity-sponsored functions in fraternity houses(Mohler-Kou, Dowdall, Koss, & Wechsler,2004; Murnen & Kohlman, 2007). Minow and Einolf (2009) found that more than one-third of rapes reported on college campuses took place in a fraternity house. As compared to men who are not in fraternities, men who are in fraternities are also more likely to engage in sexually aggressive behaviors (Loh, Gidycz,Lobo, & Luthra, 2005; Murnen & Kohlman,2007) and to endorse rape-supportive beliefs and attitudes (Boeringer, 1999; Boeringer,Shehan, & Akers, 1991; Canan, Jozkowski, &Crawford, 2016; Humphreys & Kahn, 2000).These fndings suggest that fraternity subculture may be conducive to sexual violence against women and that specifc venues such as parties and events hosted by fraternities represent spaces of high risk for the perpetration of sexual assault. We argue that fraternity culture, marked by “hooking up, sexual competition among brothers, and collective disrespect for women[,]makes fraternity rape a virtual inevitability”(Boyle, 2015, p. 386). "
- https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316353371_The_Greek_System_How_Gender_Inequality_and_Class_Privilege_Perpetuate_Rape_Culture_Greek_System_and_Rape_Culture

Quote
"In conclusion, although our study uses a conservative estimate for rape, our study indicates that higher liquor violations, fraternity men, and athletes on campuses are associated with higher campus reported rapes."
- https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317663622_An_Empirical_Investigation_of_Campus_Demographics_and_Reported_Rapes

Quote
"Fraternity men are overrepresented among sexual assault perpetrators"
- https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326019599_Good_Guys_Don't_Rape_Greek_and_Non-Greek_College_Student_Perpetrator_Rape_Myths

Quote
"Despite widespread knowledge that fraternity members are frequently involved in the sexual assaults of women, fraternities are rarely studied as social contexts-groups and organizations-that encourage the sexual coercion of women. An analysis of the norms and dynamics of the social construction of fraternity brotherhood reveals the highly masculinist features of fraternity structure and process, including concern with a narrow, stereotypical conception of masculinity and heterosexuality; a preoccupation with loyalty, protection of the group, and secrecy; the use of alcohol as a weapon against women's sexual reluctance; the pervasiveness of violence and physical force; and an obsession with competition, superiority, and dominance. Interfraternity rivalry and competition-particularly over members, intramural sports, and women-encourage fraternity men's commodification of women. We conclude that fraternities will continue to violate women socially and sexually unless they change in fundamental ways."
- https://www.jstor.org/stable/189763?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Quote
Despite consistent evidence that fraternity membership is associated with greater perpetration and acceptance of sexual violence, less is known about why this link occurs. In this study, we use Structural Equation Modeling to test whether endorsement of traditional masculinity explains why fraternity membership is associated with greater rape myth acceptance and more sexual deception behaviors in a sample of 365 undergraduate men. Our assessment of traditional masculinity included the following 3 components: conformity to masculine norms, pressure to uphold masculine norms, and acceptance of objectification of women. Results suggest that conformity to masculine norms, pressure to uphold masculine norms, and acceptance of objectification of women mediate the relation between fraternity membership and acceptance of sexual violence.
- http://psycnet.apa.org/record/2016-46139-001

Please tell me more about my "racism" towards fraternities.

Neo-nazi membership is voluntary.  If Kevenaugh had a history as a neo-nazi, and accusers saying that he was racist . . . it would be relevant to point this out because neo-nazis have a long standing and well-researched history of facilitating/encouraging racist action.  Even if not every neo-nazi is a racist.

Frat membership is voluntary.  Kavenaugh has a history of being a fraternity member and accurers are saying that he sexually assaulted them.  Fraternities have a well researched and long standing history of facilitating/encouraging rape.  It is relevant to point this out, even if not every frat bro is a rapist.

How is this similar to saying that someone of a particular race is defined by characteristics unique to his (or her) race?  Race is not voluntary.  To my knowledge there exists no research proving that race (in lieu of other factors) will determine any behavioral patterns.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 07:27:27 PM by GuitarStv »

sol

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #460 on: September 26, 2018, 06:59:57 PM »
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna913581

A fourth accuser, from 1998, has come forward.

He’s toast. Shut the thread down. Hope an attempt at the SCOTUS was worth losing his family, professional respect, and (hopefully) his current job.

You're dreaming.  They still backed Judge Roy Moore right up until the moment the last votes were counted.  They knew of all of the allegations and there was an absolute flood of corroborating evidence, so they publicly acknowledged they were true despite Roy flatly denying everything just like Kavanaugh is doing, and it still didn't matter.  They stood by him right to the end.

How could they not, after standing by Trump?

Look, this is really quite simple.  Sexual assault of a minor just isn't disqualifying for a republican candidate.  The only relevant difference between Judge Brett "it's a con job" Kavanaugh and Judge Roy "it's a smear campaign" Moore is that the public doesn't get to vote on Kavanaugh.  Senate republicans can just make him a SC justice, despite his history, and there is nothing you or I or anyone else can do about it.  Mitch McConnell has publicly said as much.  It just doesn't matter.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 07:15:04 PM by sol »

DarkandStormy

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #461 on: September 26, 2018, 07:11:20 PM »
Senate Republicans are now releasing anonymous accusations in an effort to try to discredit the first three women on the record.

Republicans are the greatest threat to our republic.

Glenstache

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #462 on: September 26, 2018, 07:21:45 PM »
Senate Republicans are now releasing anonymous accusations in an effort to try to discredit the first three women on the record.

Republicans are the greatest threat to our republic.
Do you have a source on this?

Glenstache

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #463 on: September 26, 2018, 07:24:03 PM »
And also a quote from Dan Rather for some perspective:
Quote
There is so much to see and hear in this crazy news environment, but as I take in yet one more women coming forth with a story of sexual harassment and assault against Brett Kavanaugh, another one of the senses overtakes me. This whole situation has a stench that smells to high heaven. It is downright rancid.

The headlines are of the specifics of these serious allegations, but coursing beneath is what's really on the balance of justice. This is about money, privilege and power. All of these naked forces have backed Judge Kavanaugh and are loathe to be defeated. They are personified by the old Republican bulls of the Senate (Grassley, Hatch, Graham, and others) who I believe have greatly misjudged the national mood. They are playing by rules that have long since exceeded their expiration date. Again, this rancid stench.

And what makes this all so easy for the American public to understand is that a picture is emerging of Judge Kavanaugh which suggests that he may that he may be "That Guy," who many have seen before - the dangerous drunk (strong language I grant you but we have to consider the evidence before us). He may present as a man in control. People who know him in his work environment can attest to his character, but it may turn out to be that famous Jekyll and Hyde. Although he portrayed himself as a choir boy on Fox News, evidence accumulates that he has a record as someone who drinks a lot. And from the similarities of the accusations, we also see a man who may have been steeped in a form of toxic masculinity. A thorough and complete investigation might prove otherwise, but it seems that Judge Kavanaugh and the White House do not want that to happen.

I don't know where this ends up. But I have never seen a nomination process so bereft of sanity. It has been bungled. It is Inept. bizarre, and plainly weird. In short it is in keeping with the Era of Trump. But there will be a judgement coming and it will say a lot about the courage and decency of our political leaders and the determination of the public to say that this is all completely anathema to the American character.

intellectsucks

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #464 on: September 26, 2018, 07:34:23 PM »
GuitarStv: only one of the studies you linked looks at sexual assault rates, and concludes that three factors correlate to campus' with higher rates of sexual assault than others: fraternity membership, alcohol violations and athletes.  It also does not compare sexual assault rates between fraternity members and the general population.  For all we know fraternity members may be LESS likely than the general population to commit sexual assault. The one you quoted stating that fraternity members are overrepresented in sexual assault does not study assault rates at all. Like the rest of the links you provided, and the links provided previously in the thread, it studies fraternity members opinions regarding "rape myths".

But again, whether or not fraternity members as a whole commit sexual assault at higher rates than the general population is irrelevant to whether or not Brett kavanaugh committed sexual assault. If the rate of sexual assault amongst fraternity members was astronomical, say 20%, it would still mean that the overwhelming majority of fraternity members were not sexual predators.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #465 on: September 26, 2018, 07:35:53 PM »

Out of curiosity, has anyone here been part of a social group or known a social group in the U.S., where gang rape would be no big deal?  I'm going out on a limb here because I don't know what the early 80's in Maryland were like and I get that attitudes were more permissive, especially with respect to sex after drinking or drugs, but I just can't imagine that is was so different that high school girls were just like, "damn, another girl getting gang raped.  Maybe i should do some....oooh, I need a refill on my punch.
 Someone else can deal with the gang rape."
 

Not in the USA, but here in the UK there have been multiple convictions for gang rape in recent years, with youngsters of both sexes being "groomed" into drink and drugs and accepting what happened to them, and with people in authority (social workers, police) expressing for years the same sort denial and disbelief that you are expressing here.

Do you think the USA is so special that it can't happen there?

There is a reason I limited it to the USA.  I'm sure it is much more plausible in some developing countries and in certain insular immigrant communities in developed countries.  And we will probably have the same issues pop up in the U.S.A. 

But I was under the impression that people in authority in the UK weren't in disbelief, but it was more of a combination of the authorities thinking the victims were trash that probably asked for it and/or being concerned about being viewed as anti-muslim/racist/xenophobic if they accused the perpetrators of gang rape and running sex rings.


Gang rape is sadly plausible amongst any insular/tightly knit group that regards itself as separate from/better than society and immune from enforcement action.  Like privileged boys at a prep school, or in a fraternity at an Ivy.

And we are currently getting a very clear demonstration of how "authorities" in the form of the Senate Judicial Committee, and the President, and the Republican Party, are trying hard to discredit and disbelieve the sworn statements of highly educated, responsible and well-regarded professional women.   What chance do you think a 15 year old girl who has been drinking or doing drugs, or going out somewhere without her parents' knowledge, would have had of being believed?

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #466 on: September 26, 2018, 07:39:25 PM »
GuitarStv: only one of the studies you linked looks at sexual assault rates, and concludes that three factors correlate to campus' with higher rates of sexual assault than others: fraternity membership, alcohol violations and athletes.  It also does not compare sexual assault rates between fraternity members and the general population.  For all we know fraternity members may be LESS likely than the general population to commit sexual assault. The one you quoted stating that fraternity members are overrepresented in sexual assault does not study assault rates at all. Like the rest of the links you provided, and the links provided previously in the thread, it studies fraternity members opinions regarding "rape myths".

But again, whether or not fraternity members as a whole commit sexual assault at higher rates than the general population is irrelevant to whether or not Brett kavanaugh committed sexual assault. If the rate of sexual assault amongst fraternity members was astronomical, say 20%, it would still mean that the overwhelming majority of fraternity members were not sexual predators.


Brett Kavanaugh is strongly linked to all three of the factors you mentioned: fraternity, alcohol and athletics.   And there is no accusation against the overwhelming majority of fraternity members, there are now multiple accusations against Kavanaugh.


Were/are you a member of a fraternity, by any chance?

intellectsucks

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #467 on: September 26, 2018, 07:44:31 PM »
My last point for the night in the fight against PEOPLE BEING WRONG ON THE INTERNET!!!!1!!1!1

The FBI already reviewed the claims made by Ms. Ford when they received the letter and passed on investigating it further.  They stated that this was a political matter now, not a federal crime.

I think that an FBI investigation is the only possible way that kavanaugh gets confirmed, but I can't possibly see them finding any evidence pointing one way or another.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #468 on: September 26, 2018, 07:48:44 PM »
My last point for the night in the fight against PEOPLE BEING WRONG ON THE INTERNET!!!!1!!1!1

The FBI already reviewed the claims made by Ms. Ford when they received the letter and passed on investigating it further.  They stated that this was a political matter now, not a federal crime.

I think that an FBI investigation is the only possible way that kavanaugh gets confirmed, but I can't possibly see them finding any evidence pointing one way or another.


The FBI background check had been completed when they received the letter: they needed permission from the President to re-open the check which they did not get.


That there was no federal crime to investigate is irrelevant other than it prevented the FBI from opening proceedings separate from the confirmation process.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #469 on: September 26, 2018, 07:57:53 PM »
Senate Republicans are now releasing anonymous accusations in an effort to try to discredit the first three women on the record.

Republicans are the greatest threat to our republic.
Do you have a source on this?

The 4th claim is from Republican Cory Gardner. The transcript of the 5th accusation call came from Republicans, a call in which Democrats asked no questions.

They will stop at nothing to confirm this judge who will take away a woman's right to choose what to do with her body.

PoutineLover

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #470 on: September 26, 2018, 07:58:57 PM »
Anecdotally, but somewhat relevant to this whole discussion, I have a story that is super similar to what Kavanaugh is being accused of. I went to a frat party when I was a naive young fresh(wo)man, I drank and played beer pong with the guys. I went to the bathroom, and some guy followed me in and started kissing me. I tried to push him away and leave, but the door was being held closed from the outside by his frat buddies. Luckily, a couple of my friends noticed what was going on and rescued me, and we left the party. I never reported it, but I have never forgotten it either. Sexual assault is violating, it feels disgusting, but it feels like there isn't much that you can do about it, and at the time I thought at least he only kissed me and didn't get away with worse.
In a culture like that where boys see this as an acceptable way of "getting some", they help each other out, and they don't rat on each other, this stuff gets swept under the rug. I am positive I'm not the only one who went through that in that frat house, and I was lucky I hadn't gone there alone. Given my experience, the accusations seem completely plausible to me, and more so the more women come forward. This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. I think the senate is afraid to investigate because they know its true,or at the very least, that Kavanaugh has lied under oath about his past behaviour.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #471 on: September 26, 2018, 08:03:38 PM »
GuitarStv: only one of the studies you linked looks at sexual assault rates, and concludes that three factors correlate to campus' with higher rates of sexual assault than others: fraternity membership, alcohol violations and athletes.  It also does not compare sexual assault rates between fraternity members and the general population.  For all we know fraternity members may be LESS likely than the general population to commit sexual assault. The one you quoted stating that fraternity members are overrepresented in sexual assault does not study assault rates at all. Like the rest of the links you provided, and the links provided previously in the thread, it studies fraternity members opinions regarding "rape myths".

But again, whether or not fraternity members as a whole commit sexual assault at higher rates than the general population is irrelevant to whether or not Brett kavanaugh committed sexual assault. If the rate of sexual assault amongst fraternity members was astronomical, say 20%, it would still mean that the overwhelming majority of fraternity members were not sexual predators.
Maybe look back to my post 172 where I cited "Fraternity affiliation has been found to be a significant predictor of sexually aggressive behavior in retrospective analyses (Lackie & de Man, 1997)."

"Prospectively, fraternity membership at baseline was a significant predictor of perpetration during the 3-month follow-up period (Loh, Gidycz, Lobo & Rohini Luthra 2005)."
Those mean that members of frats are more likely to be rapists than the general male population.  For additional supporting citations see post 172.

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« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 08:05:57 PM by Gin1984 »

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #472 on: September 26, 2018, 09:15:38 PM »
My last point for the night in the fight against PEOPLE BEING WRONG ON THE INTERNET!!!!1!!1!1


my favorite line in this whole damn thread.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #473 on: September 26, 2018, 09:26:12 PM »
Anecdotally, but somewhat relevant to this whole discussion, I have a story that is super similar to what Kavanaugh is being accused of. I went to a frat party when I was a naive young fresh(wo)man, I drank and played beer pong with the guys. I went to the bathroom, and some guy followed me in and started kissing me. I tried to push him away and leave, but the door was being held closed from the outside by his frat buddies. Luckily, a couple of my friends noticed what was going on and rescued me, and we left the party. I never reported it, but I have never forgotten it either. Sexual assault is violating, it feels disgusting, but it feels like there isn't much that you can do about it, and at the time I thought at least he only kissed me and didn't get away with worse.
In a culture like that where boys see this as an acceptable way of "getting some", they help each other out, and they don't rat on each other, this stuff gets swept under the rug. I am positive I'm not the only one who went through that in that frat house, and I was lucky I hadn't gone there alone. Given my experience, the accusations seem completely plausible to me, and more so the more women come forward. This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. I think the senate is afraid to investigate because they know its true,or at the very least, that Kavanaugh has lied under oath about his past behaviour.

Never go to a party alone.  Never leave your drink unattended (or don't drink from it if you have). Don't walk home alone. Go to the bathroom in pairs. Never drink in excess when there are lots of other men present.

These are all 'common sense' things that young women are taught in highschool and college, but aren't taught to young men.  For everything that's occurred since the #metoo movement its still necessary for necessary for women to play defense to sexual assualt, to be the ones that are always on the lookout, always ensuring they never put themselves in an 'un-safe' situation. 
And that's f*'d up.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #474 on: September 26, 2018, 10:07:12 PM »
Anecdotally, but somewhat relevant to this whole discussion, I have a story that is super similar to what Kavanaugh is being accused of. I went to a frat party when I was a naive young fresh(wo)man, I drank and played beer pong with the guys. I went to the bathroom, and some guy followed me in and started kissing me. I tried to push him away and leave, but the door was being held closed from the outside by his frat buddies. Luckily, a couple of my friends noticed what was going on and rescued me, and we left the party. I never reported it, but I have never forgotten it either. Sexual assault is violating, it feels disgusting, but it feels like there isn't much that you can do about it, and at the time I thought at least he only kissed me and didn't get away with worse.
In a culture like that where boys see this as an acceptable way of "getting some", they help each other out, and they don't rat on each other, this stuff gets swept under the rug. I am positive I'm not the only one who went through that in that frat house, and I was lucky I hadn't gone there alone. Given my experience, the accusations seem completely plausible to me, and more so the more women come forward. This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. I think the senate is afraid to investigate because they know its true,or at the very least, that Kavanaugh has lied under oath about his past behaviour.

Never go to a party alone.  Never leave your drink unattended (or don't drink from it if you have). Don't walk home alone. Go to the bathroom in pairs. Never drink in excess when there are lots of other men present.

These are all 'common sense' things that young women are taught in highschool and college, but aren't taught to young men.  For everything that's occurred since the #metoo movement its still necessary for necessary for women to play defense to sexual assualt, to be the ones that are always on the lookout, always ensuring they never put themselves in an 'un-safe' situation. 
And that's f*'d up.
And the extra shitty part is that by focusing on what women can do to avoid getting raped, all we are doing is ensuring that it's some other girl instead, a girl who didn't get the memo, or didn't get as lucky, or even though she did everything right he still raped her. Because nothing is done to stop or change the behaviour of the actual criminals here, the ones who bear the actual responsibility for the rape occurring. Until we hold rapists (and abuser, and harassers) responsible, nothing will change. Men will still get away with their crimes and people will be conditioned to feel sorry for them if they do face any kind of penalty for their behaviour.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #475 on: September 27, 2018, 03:01:16 AM »
Frat membership is voluntary.  Kavenaugh has a history of being a fraternity member and accurers are saying that he sexually assaulted them.  Fraternities have a well researched and long standing history of facilitating/encouraging rape.  It is relevant to point this out, even if not every frat bro is a rapist.

How is this similar to saying that someone of a particular race is defined by characteristics unique to his (or her) race?  Race is not voluntary.  To my knowledge there exists no research proving that race (in lieu of other factors) will determine any behavioral patterns.

I am not surprised about gang rapes and fraternities having some correlation.  Fraternities + sororities + alcohol is a formula to produce those results sometimes.  That said, the notion that it is encouraged would be a generalization.  Perhaps some individuals or small groups within organizations encourage the idea, but it is very unlikely that it is promoted in any official capacity.

I was in a fraternity and served in officer positions within the Interfraternity Council at a beach town college known for hot girls and partying.  I'm sure some in the school would be okay with taking advantage of inebriated girls, but it would be absolutely crazy if gang rape was openly encouraged.  I had friends from all of the major houses and if someone made such a suggestion, that person would have been cut immediately.  Socializing held importance, but preservation of the fraternity was paramount.  The stakes are too high.  The fraternity would be decommissioned by the school and they'd lose their chapter without question.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #476 on: September 27, 2018, 04:34:00 AM »
Frat culture is definitely a big part of this.  I went to a school with a heavy frat presence and everyone knew what went on.  Parties were essentially excuses to get some girls wasted and take advantage. 

Even if Kavanaugh is innocent of specific rape crimes, he was part of the pack, incentivizing and encouraging that type of behavior.  This has been corroborated by many, many people.

This is probably the guy that will kill Roe vs. Wade, and there is fuck all we can do about it.

The democrats are finally playing political hardball, and on one hand I am happy to see it, but on the other hand gutted that this is where we are as a country.  It’s ugly, dirty, and an indication of how far we have fallen. Once the Garland nomination was jettisoned in the way that it was, everything was possible in SC nomination.  I love hearing the outrage about character assasionation from the   Republicans. 

No matter the outcome of this confirmation hearing, it galvanizes turn out either way.  I just pray that the end result of this is that we have a political check on Trump, maybe even potentially turning the senate. 

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #477 on: September 27, 2018, 04:37:46 AM »
Frat membership is voluntary.  Kavenaugh has a history of being a fraternity member and accurers are saying that he sexually assaulted them.  Fraternities have a well researched and long standing history of facilitating/encouraging rape.  It is relevant to point this out, even if not every frat bro is a rapist.

How is this similar to saying that someone of a particular race is defined by characteristics unique to his (or her) race?  Race is not voluntary.  To my knowledge there exists no research proving that race (in lieu of other factors) will determine any behavioral patterns.

I am not surprised about gang rapes and fraternities having some correlation.  Fraternities + sororities + alcohol is a formula to produce those results sometimes.  That said, the notion that it is encouraged would be a generalization.  Perhaps some individuals or small groups within organizations encourage the idea, but it is very unlikely that it is promoted in any official capacity.

I was in a fraternity and served in officer positions within the Interfraternity Council at a beach town college known for hot girls and partying.  I'm sure some in the school would be okay with taking advantage of inebriated girls, but it would be absolutely crazy if gang rape was openly encouraged.  I had friends from all of the major houses and if someone made such a suggestion, that person would have been cut immediately.  Socializing held importance, but preservation of the fraternity was paramount.  The stakes are too high.  The fraternity would be decommissioned by the school and they'd lose their chapter without question.
"Taking advantage of inebriated girls" is rape.  Rape is sex without consent.  And yes, see post 172, that culture (which you inadvertently gave such a great example of) does encourage rape and sexual assault.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #478 on: September 27, 2018, 06:44:35 AM »
Anecdotally, but somewhat relevant to this whole discussion, I have a story that is super similar to what Kavanaugh is being accused of. I went to a frat party when I was a naive young fresh(wo)man, I drank and played beer pong with the guys. I went to the bathroom, and some guy followed me in and started kissing me. I tried to push him away and leave, but the door was being held closed from the outside by his frat buddies. Luckily, a couple of my friends noticed what was going on and rescued me, and we left the party. I never reported it, but I have never forgotten it either. Sexual assault is violating, it feels disgusting, but it feels like there isn't much that you can do about it, and at the time I thought at least he only kissed me and didn't get away with worse.
In a culture like that where boys see this as an acceptable way of "getting some", they help each other out, and they don't rat on each other, this stuff gets swept under the rug. I am positive I'm not the only one who went through that in that frat house, and I was lucky I hadn't gone there alone. Given my experience, the accusations seem completely plausible to me, and more so the more women come forward. This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. I think the senate is afraid to investigate because they know its true,or at the very least, that Kavanaugh has lied under oath about his past behaviour.

Never go to a party alone.  Never leave your drink unattended (or don't drink from it if you have). Don't walk home alone. Go to the bathroom in pairs. Never drink in excess when there are lots of other men present.

These are all 'common sense' things that young women are taught in highschool and college, but aren't taught to young men.  For everything that's occurred since the #metoo movement its still necessary for necessary for women to play defense to sexual assualt, to be the ones that are always on the lookout, always ensuring they never put themselves in an 'un-safe' situation. 
And that's f*'d up.
And the extra shitty part is that by focusing on what women can do to avoid getting raped, all we are doing is ensuring that it's some other girl instead, a girl who didn't get the memo, or didn't get as lucky, or even though she did everything right he still raped her. Because nothing is done to stop or change the behaviour of the actual criminals here, the ones who bear the actual responsibility for the rape occurring. Until we hold rapists (and abuser, and harassers) responsible, nothing will change. Men will still get away with their crimes and people will be conditioned to feel sorry for them if they do face any kind of penalty for their behaviour.

Because it's always the victim's fault.  "She shouldn't have been drinking. She shouldn't have gone to the party alone."
No- HE shouldn't have raped her. 

(And in the other instance, when women take advantage of men; that's also illegal.)

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #479 on: September 27, 2018, 07:08:31 AM »
-A summary of the evidence in Kavanaugh’s defense:
1. Every first hand witness has refuted the accusers’ claims.
2. There is no record of any of these accusations before approx. 2012 when Ms. Ford discussed them with her therapist.
3. Kavanaugh has produced his calendars from that time period detailing his schedule and appointments, including planned parties.

-Given this summary of evidence, what possible proof could be produced that will be sufficient to clear his name?
-Or put a different way, if you found yourself eligible for a position of incredible power and prestige, a position that represented the absolute pinnacle of your life’s work, and someone accused you of similarly serious charges from 35 years ago, how would you defend yourself?  What more possible proof could you provide than Kavanaugh has provided to prove that you were innocent?

I actually find the publicly available proof to be the most damning. 
Starting with the Fox News interview he gave, that was clearly so far off the mark as to be a laughable. If his assertion had been that he drank and partied in his youth but later on found focus I could have swallowed that. But instead he jogged so far to the right, virtually claiming to be a perfect angel.


I think BK did this to signal to evangelical primary voters that he would be one of "them" once he gets confirmed. Facts are not relevant. The Senators who are voting on him know these voters will show up in primary season.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #480 on: September 27, 2018, 07:26:05 AM »
I was in a fraternity and served in officer positions within the Interfraternity Council at a beach town college known for hot girls and partying.  I'm sure some in the school would be okay with taking advantage of inebriated girls, but it would be absolutely crazy if gang rape was openly encouraged.  I had friends from all of the major houses and if someone made such a suggestion, that person would have been cut immediately.  Socializing held importance, but preservation of the fraternity was paramount.  The stakes are too high.  The fraternity would be decommissioned by the school and they'd lose their chapter without question.

Jesus fucking Christ. This is utterly chilling to read. Even while declaring that there wasn't a rape culture in your college, you casually acknowledge that it wouldn't have been a particularly big deal for people to rape intoxicated women.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #481 on: September 27, 2018, 07:36:23 AM »
I was in a fraternity and served in officer positions within the Interfraternity Council at a beach town college known for hot girls and partying.  I'm sure some in the school would be okay with taking advantage of inebriated girls, but it would be absolutely crazy if gang rape was openly encouraged.  I had friends from all of the major houses and if someone made such a suggestion, that person would have been cut immediately.  Socializing held importance, but preservation of the fraternity was paramount.  The stakes are too high.  The fraternity would be decommissioned by the school and they'd lose their chapter without question.

Jesus fucking Christ. This is utterly chilling to read. Even while declaring that there wasn't a rape culture in your college, you casually acknowledge that it wouldn't have been a particularly big deal for people to rape intoxicated women.

"I'm sure some in the school would be okay with taking advantage of inebriated girls, but"

Agreed. JFC. J. F. C.

Along with the reasons for not being okay with gang rape:

The stakes were too high. Preservation of the fraternity was paramount.

The fraternity would have been at risk.

The fraternity.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 07:39:28 AM by Kris »

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #482 on: September 27, 2018, 07:40:04 AM »
It makes me less annoyed that I have to do a 2nd training today on sexual harassment and assault.  The school I'm getting a MBA at requires a 90 minute class at the beginning of the semester, and a 20 minute class mid-semester; every single semester. Or you are blocked from registering.

One major point made is what consent is.

It's clear that's needed.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #483 on: September 27, 2018, 07:43:27 AM »
Frat membership is voluntary.  Kavenaugh has a history of being a fraternity member and accurers are saying that he sexually assaulted them.  Fraternities have a well researched and long standing history of facilitating/encouraging rape.  It is relevant to point this out, even if not every frat bro is a rapist.

How is this similar to saying that someone of a particular race is defined by characteristics unique to his (or her) race?  Race is not voluntary.  To my knowledge there exists no research proving that race (in lieu of other factors) will determine any behavioral patterns.

I am not surprised about gang rapes and fraternities having some correlation.  Fraternities + sororities + alcohol is a formula to produce those results sometimes.  That said, the notion that it is encouraged would be a generalization.  Perhaps some individuals or small groups within organizations encourage the idea, but it is very unlikely that it is promoted in any official capacity.

I was in a fraternity and served in officer positions within the Interfraternity Council at a beach town college known for hot girls and partying.  I'm sure some in the school would be okay with taking advantage of inebriated girls, but it would be absolutely crazy if gang rape was openly encouraged.  I had friends from all of the major houses and if someone made such a suggestion, that person would have been cut immediately.  Socializing held importance, but preservation of the fraternity was paramount.  The stakes are too high.  The fraternity would be decommissioned by the school and they'd lose their chapter without question.

Two questions I'd like you to think about:
1) how do you think gang rapes actually happen?
2) do you think a victim is more or less likely to report being raped by multiple people (e.g. 'three-against-one' situation) than by a single individual.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #484 on: September 27, 2018, 07:48:47 AM »
It makes me less annoyed that I have to do a 2nd training today on sexual harassment and assault.  The school I'm getting a MBA at requires a 90 minute class at the beginning of the semester, and a 20 minute class mid-semester; every single semester. Or you are blocked from registering.

One major point made is what consent is.

It's clear that's needed.

Yeah, we have quarterly harassment training as well.  It frustrates me that consent is not better udnerstood, because its a pretty simple concept - if all participants are not there willingly and of clear mind, at least one is committing a crime. 
Or we could ask "do you want some tea?"

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #485 on: September 27, 2018, 07:56:06 AM »
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/sep/27/two-men-claim-responsibility-christine-blasey-ford/

Early report of two men who are claiming to be the assailants against Ms. Ford at the party.  If this turns out to be true, it completely exonerates Kavanaugh.  If any of the named witnesses (PJ Smythe, or Leland Keyser) corroborate that these men were at the party, then there can be no other conclusion than they're telling the truth.  If that happens, will anyone show remorse at smearing Brett Kavanaugh with false accusations?

If their story is not corroborated but they make their claims on the record, will that sway anyone in this threads opinion on whether or not he committed assault?  This is a serious question, not a hypothetical.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #486 on: September 27, 2018, 07:57:26 AM »
GuitarStv: only one of the studies you linked looks at sexual assault rates, and concludes that three factors correlate to campus' with higher rates of sexual assault than others: fraternity membership, alcohol violations and athletes.  It also does not compare sexual assault rates between fraternity members and the general population.

That data is available in the referenced studies, which you (bizarrely) seem to have ignored.  For example, the single study that you've mentioned above includes full references  (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317663622_An_Empirical_Investigation_of_Campus_Demographics_and_Reported_Rapes):

"Multiple studies have found that sexual assaults are more likely to occur with fraternity men"
- Adams-Curtis LE, Forbedos GB. College women’s experiences
of sexual coercion: A review of cultural, perpetrator, victim,
and situational variables. Trauma Viol Abuse.
2004;5,91–122. https://doi.org/10.1177/1524838003262331.

- Foubert JD, Newberry JT, Tatum J. Behavior differences seven months later: Effects of a rape prevention program. NASPA J. 2007;44(4):728–749. 8 J. D. WIERSMA-MOSLEY ET AL.

- Humphrey SE, Kahn AS. Fraternities, athletic teams, and rape. J Interpers Violence. 2000;15(12):1313–1320.

- Kimble NB, Russo SA, Bergman BG, Galindo VH. Revealing an empirical understanding of aggression and violent behavior in athletics. Aggress Viol Behav. 2010;15:446–462.

- Safai P. Boys behaving badly: Popular literature on the misbehavior of male team sport athletes in North America. Int Rev Sociol Sport. 2002;37:97–102. https://doi.org/10.1177/1012690202037001006

"more than one-third of campus rapes occur in fraternity houses" - Minow JC, Einolf CJ. Sorority participation and sexual assault risk. Viol Against Women. 2009;15(7):835–851.

etc.

This is true for every other study quoted as well ( Minow and Einolf (2009), Bohmer and Parrot (1993), Gross-bard, Geisner, Neighbors, Kilmer, & Larimer,(2007); McMahon, (2010), Mohler-Kou, Dowdall, Koss, & Wechsler, (2004), Murnen & Kohlman, (2007), etc. all contain the information you purport to be looking for.  This is all referenced in the information you were provided with.  I believe that Gin pointed to several other studies demonstrating the same.  You appear to be hellbent on ignoring all this data for some reason.



For all we know fraternity members may be LESS likely than the general population to commit sexual assault. The one you quoted stating that fraternity members are overrepresented in sexual assault does not study assault rates at all. Like the rest of the links you provided, and the links provided previously in the thread, it studies fraternity members opinions regarding "rape myths".

If we ignore the multiple citations indicating that fraternity men rape at higher rates . . . then we have no idea if fraternity men rape at higher rates.  Please read the articles posted and check the references therein before creating novel conclusions to fit your personal narrative.



But again, whether or not fraternity members as a whole commit sexual assault at higher rates than the general population is irrelevant to whether or not Brett kavanaugh committed sexual assault. If the rate of sexual assault amongst fraternity members was astronomical, say 20%, it would still mean that the overwhelming majority of fraternity members were not sexual predators.

Sure, belonging to a fraternity does not make one a sexual assault perpetrator.  I didn't ever say that Kavenaugh's fraternity days made him sexually assault anyone.  This is a straw man that you're arguing here.  My comments about fraternities were in reference to Jrr's belief that gang rape couldn't possibly occur in a fraternity.  The evidence shows that not only does rape frequently occur in fraternities, but that gang rape is not particularly unusual.

I don't know if Kavenaugh is guilty or not of the multiple sexual assaults he has been accused of.  Just because someone acts guilty and lies about related things certainly isn't evidence of their guilt.  What I do believe is that there is ample cause to investigate the matter further before granting him a lifetime appointment to a judicial position.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #487 on: September 27, 2018, 08:01:09 AM »
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/sep/27/two-men-claim-responsibility-christine-blasey-ford/

Early report of two men who are claiming to be the assailants against Ms. Ford at the party.  If this turns out to be true, it completely exonerates Kavanaugh.  If any of the named witnesses (PJ Smythe, or Leland Keyser) corroborate that these men were at the party, then there can be no other conclusion than they're telling the truth. If that happens, will anyone show remorse at smearing Brett Kavanaugh with false accusations?

If their story is not corroborated but they make their claims on the record, will that sway anyone in this threads opinion on whether or not he committed assault?  This is a serious question, not a hypothetical.

I can think of multiple other conclusions.

Which is an excellent reason that the FBI should have investigated ALL of the allegations thoroughly.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #488 on: September 27, 2018, 08:07:20 AM »
GuitarStv: only one of the studies you linked looks at sexual assault rates, and concludes that three factors correlate to campus' with higher rates of sexual assault than others: fraternity membership, alcohol violations and athletes.  It also does not compare sexual assault rates between fraternity members and the general population.  For all we know fraternity members may be LESS likely than the general population to commit sexual assault. The one you quoted stating that fraternity members are overrepresented in sexual assault does not study assault rates at all. Like the rest of the links you provided, and the links provided previously in the thread, it studies fraternity members opinions regarding "rape myths".

But again, whether or not fraternity members as a whole commit sexual assault at higher rates than the general population is irrelevant to whether or not Brett kavanaugh committed sexual assault. If the rate of sexual assault amongst fraternity members was astronomical, say 20%, it would still mean that the overwhelming majority of fraternity members were not sexual predators.


Brett Kavanaugh is strongly linked to all three of the factors you mentioned: fraternity, alcohol and athletics.   And there is no accusation against the overwhelming majority of fraternity members, there are now multiple accusations against Kavanaugh.


Were/are you a member of a fraternity, by any chance?

No, I actually find almost all aspects of fraternity culture repugnant. I AM however hoping for a seat on the supreme Court.

EDITED BECAUSE I'M NOT BEING AS THOROUGH IN MY READING AS I SHOULD IN THIS THREAD. AND TO ADD THAT I'M JOKING ABOUT BEING ON THE SUPREME COURT.

note to self: don't try to squeeze in heated political debates during short lulls at work.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 08:12:52 AM by intellectsucks »

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #489 on: September 27, 2018, 08:15:31 AM »
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/sep/27/two-men-claim-responsibility-christine-blasey-ford/

Early report of two men who are claiming to be the assailants against Ms. Ford at the party.  If this turns out to be true, it completely exonerates Kavanaugh.  If any of the named witnesses (PJ Smythe, or Leland Keyser) corroborate that these men were at the party, then there can be no other conclusion than they're telling the truth.  If that happens, will anyone show remorse at smearing Brett Kavanaugh with false accusations?

If their story is not corroborated but they make their claims on the record, will that sway anyone in this threads opinion on whether or not he committed assault?  This is a serious question, not a hypothetical.

Well for starters what you are asking is a hypothetical (even if it is a serious question) as it hasn't yet happened.

If there's are two people claiming to be Ford's attackers this would basically leave us with two suspects, Kavanaugh/Judge and these other two. Assuming Ford remains convinced that it was Kavanaugh/Judge we'd have a situation where we'd have to evaluate which is more plausable, and of course an actual investigation would help determine that.

However it wouldn't change the other allegations made by Swetnick or Ramirez, nor the accusations and evidence which points to him having been an abusive drunk and having downplayed/lied about this in public declarations.

As many of us has said multiple times - false claims have a way of crumbling under investigative scrutiny and when given sufficient time for evidence to be unearthed and corroborated., whereas true allegations get supported.  Holding a hearing with only 2 of the individuals and then voting less than 24 hours later is not the best practice to uncover the truth/

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #490 on: September 27, 2018, 08:17:04 AM »
"Presumption of innocence" applies in criminal proceedings, not in what amounts to a high stakes job interview.

This is not a criminal trial. It does not follow the same principles as a criminal trial.

Kris

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #491 on: September 27, 2018, 08:17:37 AM »
"Presumption of innocence" applies in criminal proceedings, not in what amounts to a high stakes job interview.

This is not a criminal trial. It does not follow the same principles as a criminal trial.

Yes.

Imagine you’re on the committee to hire the next CEO of a Fortune 500 company. You’ve got a stack of impressive resumes, but one is a standout.

Then you hear this:

- A woman says your top pick tried to sexually assault her, pinning her down on a bed at a party when they were in high school, a story she told a therapist years ago.
-A second woman says he exposed himself to her as a student at Yale. Classmates gossiped about it for decades.
-A third woman says your applicant was a bystander when she was, in her words, “gang raped” at a high school party. She says that she saw him once in a line of boys preparing to gang rape another student.
-She also said that he and his friends spiked drinks with drugs and alcohol to make women unable fight off unwanted sexual advances.
-In response to all of this, your top pick presents himself as a virgin choirboy. Half a dozen of his old friends gasp, telling the Washington Post that, in fact, he was an aggressive “sloppy drunk” for years.

Do you hire him, anyway?

- Ezra Klein

intellectsucks

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #492 on: September 27, 2018, 08:21:11 AM »
GuitarStv: only one of the studies you linked looks at sexual assault rates, and concludes that three factors correlate to campus' with higher rates of sexual assault than others: fraternity membership, alcohol violations and athletes.  It also does not compare sexual assault rates between fraternity members and the general population.

That data is available in the referenced studies, which you (bizarrely) seem to have ignored.  For example, the single study that you've mentioned above includes full references  (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317663622_An_Empirical_Investigation_of_Campus_Demographics_and_Reported_Rapes):

"Multiple studies have found that sexual assaults are more likely to occur with fraternity men"
- Adams-Curtis LE, Forbedos GB. College women’s experiences
of sexual coercion: A review of cultural, perpetrator, victim,
and situational variables. Trauma Viol Abuse.
2004;5,91–122. https://doi.org/10.1177/1524838003262331.

- Foubert JD, Newberry JT, Tatum J. Behavior differences seven months later: Effects of a rape prevention program. NASPA J. 2007;44(4):728–749. 8 J. D. WIERSMA-MOSLEY ET AL.

- Humphrey SE, Kahn AS. Fraternities, athletic teams, and rape. J Interpers Violence. 2000;15(12):1313–1320.

- Kimble NB, Russo SA, Bergman BG, Galindo VH. Revealing an empirical understanding of aggression and violent behavior in athletics. Aggress Viol Behav. 2010;15:446–462.

- Safai P. Boys behaving badly: Popular literature on the misbehavior of male team sport athletes in North America. Int Rev Sociol Sport. 2002;37:97–102. https://doi.org/10.1177/1012690202037001006

"more than one-third of campus rapes occur in fraternity houses" - Minow JC, Einolf CJ. Sorority participation and sexual assault risk. Viol Against Women. 2009;15(7):835–851.

etc.

This is true for every other study quoted as well ( Minow and Einolf (2009), Bohmer and Parrot (1993), Gross-bard, Geisner, Neighbors, Kilmer, & Larimer,(2007); McMahon, (2010), Mohler-Kou, Dowdall, Koss, & Wechsler, (2004), Murnen & Kohlman, (2007), etc. all contain the information you purport to be looking for.  This is all referenced in the information you were provided with.  I believe that Gin pointed to several other studies demonstrating the same.  You appear to be hellbent on ignoring all this data for some reason.



For all we know fraternity members may be LESS likely than the general population to commit sexual assault. The one you quoted stating that fraternity members are overrepresented in sexual assault does not study assault rates at all. Like the rest of the links you provided, and the links provided previously in the thread, it studies fraternity members opinions regarding "rape myths".

If we ignore the multiple citations indicating that fraternity men rape at higher rates . . . then we have no idea if fraternity men rape at higher rates.  Please read the articles posted and check the references therein before creating novel conclusions to fit your personal narrative.



But again, whether or not fraternity members as a whole commit sexual assault at higher rates than the general population is irrelevant to whether or not Brett kavanaugh committed sexual assault. If the rate of sexual assault amongst fraternity members was astronomical, say 20%, it would still mean that the overwhelming majority of fraternity members were not sexual predators.

Sure, belonging to a fraternity does not make one a sexual assault perpetrator.  I didn't ever say that Kavenaugh's fraternity days made him sexually assault anyone.  This is a straw man that you're arguing here.  My comments about fraternities were in reference to Jrr's belief that gang rape couldn't possibly occur in a fraternity.  The evidence shows that not only does rape frequently occur in fraternities, but that gang rape is not particularly unusual.

I don't know if Kavenaugh is guilty or not of the multiple sexual assaults he has been accused of.  Just because someone acts guilty and lies about related things certainly isn't evidence of their guilt.  What I do believe is that there is ample cause to investigate the matter further before granting him a lifetime appointment to a judicial position.

I don't think anyone is claiming that gang rapes don't happen, my reading of Jrrrr is that he is questioning the believability of the claim that a gang rape RING operated in that social circle multiple times but was never investigated and everyone involved with it stayed completely silent about it for over thirty years. 

Jrr85

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #493 on: September 27, 2018, 08:45:06 AM »
GuitarStv: only one of the studies you linked looks at sexual assault rates, and concludes that three factors correlate to campus' with higher rates of sexual assault than others: fraternity membership, alcohol violations and athletes.  It also does not compare sexual assault rates between fraternity members and the general population.

That data is available in the referenced studies, which you (bizarrely) seem to have ignored.  For example, the single study that you've mentioned above includes full references  (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317663622_An_Empirical_Investigation_of_Campus_Demographics_and_Reported_Rapes):

"Multiple studies have found that sexual assaults are more likely to occur with fraternity men"
- Adams-Curtis LE, Forbedos GB. College women’s experiences
of sexual coercion: A review of cultural, perpetrator, victim,
and situational variables. Trauma Viol Abuse.
2004;5,91–122. https://doi.org/10.1177/1524838003262331.

- Foubert JD, Newberry JT, Tatum J. Behavior differences seven months later: Effects of a rape prevention program. NASPA J. 2007;44(4):728–749. 8 J. D. WIERSMA-MOSLEY ET AL.

- Humphrey SE, Kahn AS. Fraternities, athletic teams, and rape. J Interpers Violence. 2000;15(12):1313–1320.

- Kimble NB, Russo SA, Bergman BG, Galindo VH. Revealing an empirical understanding of aggression and violent behavior in athletics. Aggress Viol Behav. 2010;15:446–462.

- Safai P. Boys behaving badly: Popular literature on the misbehavior of male team sport athletes in North America. Int Rev Sociol Sport. 2002;37:97–102. https://doi.org/10.1177/1012690202037001006

"more than one-third of campus rapes occur in fraternity houses" - Minow JC, Einolf CJ. Sorority participation and sexual assault risk. Viol Against Women. 2009;15(7):835–851.

etc.

This is true for every other study quoted as well ( Minow and Einolf (2009), Bohmer and Parrot (1993), Gross-bard, Geisner, Neighbors, Kilmer, & Larimer,(2007); McMahon, (2010), Mohler-Kou, Dowdall, Koss, & Wechsler, (2004), Murnen & Kohlman, (2007), etc. all contain the information you purport to be looking for.  This is all referenced in the information you were provided with.  I believe that Gin pointed to several other studies demonstrating the same.  You appear to be hellbent on ignoring all this data for some reason.



For all we know fraternity members may be LESS likely than the general population to commit sexual assault. The one you quoted stating that fraternity members are overrepresented in sexual assault does not study assault rates at all. Like the rest of the links you provided, and the links provided previously in the thread, it studies fraternity members opinions regarding "rape myths".

If we ignore the multiple citations indicating that fraternity men rape at higher rates . . . then we have no idea if fraternity men rape at higher rates.  Please read the articles posted and check the references therein before creating novel conclusions to fit your personal narrative.



But again, whether or not fraternity members as a whole commit sexual assault at higher rates than the general population is irrelevant to whether or not Brett kavanaugh committed sexual assault. If the rate of sexual assault amongst fraternity members was astronomical, say 20%, it would still mean that the overwhelming majority of fraternity members were not sexual predators.

Sure, belonging to a fraternity does not make one a sexual assault perpetrator.  I didn't ever say that Kavenaugh's fraternity days made him sexually assault anyone.  This is a straw man that you're arguing here.  My comments about fraternities were in reference to Jrr's belief that gang rape couldn't possibly occur in a fraternity.  The evidence shows that not only does rape frequently occur in fraternities, but that gang rape is not particularly unusual.

I don't know if Kavenaugh is guilty or not of the multiple sexual assaults he has been accused of.  Just because someone acts guilty and lies about related things certainly isn't evidence of their guilt.  What I do believe is that there is ample cause to investigate the matter further before granting him a lifetime appointment to a judicial position.

Surely if there's so much research on it, someobdy can point to a study, provide the definition they are using, and give the numbers? 

Because everyone I can find, they seem to purposefully conflate aggressiveness/coercion/assault/rape.  That's how you get ridiculous numbers like one in four college women are victims of sexual assault before they graduate.  I suspect it's also how you get ridiculous stats like members of fraternities are 3 times more likely to commit rape. 

And surely you're not going to claim somebody else is attacking a straw man and then say that I don't believe gang rape could occur in a fraternity. That's pretty rich.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 08:47:33 AM by Jrr85 »

Jrr85

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #494 on: September 27, 2018, 08:59:56 AM »
-Sol, you speak as if there is no doubt in your mind that Kavanaugh is guilty of both charges.  Do you give any credence whatsoever to the fact every single witness identified by the alleged victims as having been present have denied that the events happened as described?

You and JRR have both made this allegation, but I still don't get it.  Several witnesses have said they didn't personally see Kavanaugh assault Ford, not that it didn't happen or that they didn't see him do any of other creepy and gropey things that have he has been widely reported to have done.  For the record, I could also say that I did not see Kavanaugh assault Ford.  One defender (his longtime friend Mark Judge) has refused to testify under oath.  His accusers have submitted sworn affidavits, under penalty of perjury, while his defenders have refused to do so.  At first glance, it sure looks like the accusers are telling the horrible truth and the defenders are trying to hide something.

And remember that at this point we're not even discussing whether or not Kavanaugh should get a lifetime promotion, we're only discussing whether or not republicans should forbid any investigation into these allegations.  They're not only claiming they are false, they are claiming they don't want to find out. 

You can certainly take issue with the allegations, if you're in the habit of telling alleged survivors of sexual assault that they are liars.  But why would you refuse to even investigate?  That part baffles me.  If you don't believe the multiple women who have come forward, why would you so staunchly oppose finding the truth?  If you think they are false accusations, wouldn't you want that exposed with a real investigation?  Let's subpoena Mark Judge and see if he stands by his denials under oath.  The accusers do.

No, I think the real story here is that republican Senators DO think they allegations are true, and they are trying to preserve what little political cover they still have by sticking their fingers in their ears so they can plead ignorance long enough to ramrod through a lifetime appointment.

Ignoring the interested parties, Ford can't find one person to verify that they were ever at a party where Ford and Kavanaugh were present.  Possibly not a big deal, except that she named a witness that was supposed to be at the party where only 5 or 6 people were there. 

The yale student's claim is even odder.   There was a group of people in the room, but she can't identify one person that was there who will confirm it happened?   

And the third person claims that when she was in college, she would attend high school parties where Kavanaugh and his friends would try to date rape people and line up for gang rapes and that eventually at one of these parties she too was gang raped, but she doesn't know if Kavanaugh was one of the people.  And not one other person is like, oh yea, I remember those gang rape parties.  They were wild. 

So it's not that just random people didn't witness things.  it's that people that were identified can't remember anything like the reported incident, and even when the larger number of people were witness to it, they can't identify one eye witness?

Certainly doesn't mean any one or all of the allegations are false.  And the first two are certainly reasonably plausible events, but there seems to be reason to be skeptical. 

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #495 on: September 27, 2018, 09:02:38 AM »

Because everyone I can find, they seem to purposefully conflate aggressiveness/coercion/assault/rape.  That's how you get ridiculous numbers like one in four college women are victims of sexual assault before they graduate.  I suspect it's also how you get ridiculous stats like members of fraternities are 3 times more likely to commit rape. 
..
Wiat a second... backup.  Are you implying that the incidences of sexual assault are much less than that?  Or that attempted rape, groping etc. should not be considered 'sexual assault.  Because eitehr is a very, very bold statement.

sol

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #496 on: September 27, 2018, 09:20:03 AM »
Surely if there's so much research on it, someobdy can point to a study, provide the definition they are using, and give the numbers? 

That has been done, just for you, multiple times now.  Why do you keep asking for the same information you've already been provided?  Are you deliberately ignoring it?

Quote
Because everyone I can find, they seem to purposefully conflate aggressiveness/coercion/assault/rape.  That's how you get ridiculous numbers like one in four college women are victims of sexual assault before they graduate.

Calling sexual assault survivors or their experiences "ridiculous" is pretty callous, man.  And the fact that you can so easily separate coercion or assault (apparently fine?) from rape (I guess not fine?) and condemn one but not the other is pretty telling.  Were you, perhaps, a member of fraternity where this sort of thing went on?  Are you suggesting that getting girls drunk and then molesting them when they can't protest is an acceptable practice, and thus an allowable form of nonconsensual sexual contact for supreme court nominees as long as there was no penetration?

Ignoring the interested parties, Ford can't find one person to verify that they were ever at a party where Ford and Kavanaugh were present.

The press has reported like eight different people who reported that Ford and Kavanaugh traveled in similar social circles, and they both attended parties at the same places.  Even if your claim was true, and no one could testify under oath that they were sure these two people attended this specific party together, that would not mean it didn't happen.  On weight of the evidence, it seems likely these events happened as described by Ford.  Why would you even try to dispute this? 

Quote
The yale student's claim is even odder.   There was a group of people in the room, but she can't identify one person that was there who will confirm it happened?   

Um, I see two different people in the press who have confirmed that the dick in face event happened, in addition to the accuser.  It sounds like everyone has been talking about this act for decades.  "Hey guys, remember that time that Brett shoved his balls in Deb's face, that was hilarious!"  No, not hilaroius.  Sexually demeaning and unacceptable by modern standards.  Absolutely disqualifying for a justice, or a man. 

Quote
And the third person claims that when she was in college, she would attend high school parties where Kavanaugh and his friends would try to date rape people

Your knowledge of sexual assault seems very limited.  Many of these frat house cases are examples where a sexual encounter rapidly went from consensual to nonconsensual in a hurry, often as a result of an "approved" partner giving the girls drugs or alcohol until she was unable to protest or tell the difference, and then passing her off to other people.  The fact that woman wanted to have sex with a boy does not mean she wasn't assaulted/raped if another boy touches/penetrates her after she passes out.  Maybe read up on Brock Turner, Jrr, before you claim this sort of thing is wildly fantastical and never happens.

Quote
it's that people that were identified can't remember anything like the reported incident, and even when the larger number of people were witness to it, they can't identify one eye witness?

You're wrong.  Not a single person has gone under oath to defend Kavanaugh with a specific denial.  You can go on Fox News and say any damn thing you like, but if you then refuse to testify under oath then how reliable should we think you are?  The accusers have now testified under oath.  I'd like to see some of the defenders do the same, except I can't because none of them are willing.  This is a very different pictures than the one you are you trying to present in which the defenders are supposed to be trustworthy for unidentified reasons but the accusers are not.

Quote
Certainly doesn't mean any one or all of the allegations are false.  And the first two are certainly reasonably plausible events, but there seems to be reason to be skeptical. 

There is always reason to be skeptical.  How about you and I agree that we really need a proper investigation into these claims before giving a lifetime irrevocable appointment to someone?  If you are skeptical too, let's get to the bottom of it.  Can we at least find common ground on that point?  Because as of right now, Senate republicans are refusing to even allow an investigation and are pushing ahead with the confirmation vote regardless.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #498 on: September 27, 2018, 10:12:04 AM »
Surely if there's so much research on it, someobdy can point to a study, provide the definition they are using, and give the numbers? 

That has been done, just for you, multiple times now.  Why do you keep asking for the same information you've already been provided?  Are you deliberately ignoring it?
  No, a bunch of crap studies that are self referential back to the same BS claims have been provided.  It shouldn't be that hard to find the study that looks at actual incidents of rape and/or sexual assault, provide the definition used, and then the prevalence among different groups.  I'm not going to pour through the crap studies to try to find one that's legitimate.  If it's so well established by research, then it should be easy enough to find a study showing it that doesn't rely on sleight of hand. 


Quote
Because everyone I can find, they seem to purposefully conflate aggressiveness/coercion/assault/rape.  That's how you get ridiculous numbers like one in four college women are victims of sexual assault before they graduate.

Calling sexual assault survivors or their experiences "ridiculous" is pretty callous, man.  And the fact that you can so easily separate coercion or assault (apparently fine?) from rape (I guess not fine?) and condemn one but not the other is pretty telling.  Were you, perhaps, a member of fraternity where this sort of thing went on?  Are you suggesting that getting girls drunk and then molesting them when they can't protest is an acceptable practice, and thus an allowable form of nonconsensual sexual contact for supreme court nominees as long as there was no penetration?
  That's a poor effort at a straw man.  I really don't get why people enjoy attacking straw men on an internet message board.  Even if you're going to do it, at least make a game effort at it so it does something other than make you look stupid.  What percentage of crazies believe whistling at a girl is in the same category as physically assaulting them?  That's the people your straw man argument will work on.   

Ignoring the interested parties, Ford can't find one person to verify that they were ever at a party where Ford and Kavanaugh were present.

The press has reported like eight different people who reported that Ford and Kavanaugh traveled in similar social circles, and they both attended parties at the same places.  Even if your claim was true, and no one could testify under oath that they were sure these two people attended this specific party together, that would not mean it didn't happen.  On weight of the evidence, it seems likely these events happened as described by Ford.  Why would you even try to dispute this? 
  You are unhinged?  What weight of the evidence are you talking about?  There is one person who says it happened, one person who says it didn't.  Nobody that can verify that it happened or even corroborate that there was a time and place where it could have happened.  The person that says it happened can't say where or when other than sometime other than a town sometime between when she was 15 and late teens depending on the time she talked about it.  It's certainly possible that it happened, but there is no weight of the evidence.   
 
Quote
The yale student's claim is even odder.   There was a group of people in the room, but she can't identify one person that was there who will confirm it happened?   

Um, I see two different people in the press who have confirmed that the dick in face event happened, in addition to the accuser.  It sounds like everyone has been talking about this act for decades.  "Hey guys, remember that time that Brett shoved his balls in Deb's face, that was hilarious!"  No, not hilaroius.  Sexually demeaning and unacceptable by modern standards.  Absolutely disqualifying for a justice, or a man. 
  You'll have to provide a cite to this.  Surely you are not counting the person who heard something like that happened but didn't know if Kavanaugh was involved or the person who said it was believable that something like this could happen. 

Quote
And the third person claims that when she was in college, she would attend high school parties where Kavanaugh and his friends would try to date rape people

Your knowledge of sexual assault seems very limited.  Many of these frat house cases are examples where a sexual encounter rapidly went from consensual to nonconsensual in a hurry, often as a result of an "approved" partner giving the girls drugs or alcohol until she was unable to protest or tell the difference, and then passing her off to other people.  The fact that woman wanted to have sex with a boy does not mean she wasn't assaulted/raped if another boy touches/penetrates her after she passes out.  Maybe read up on Brock Turner, Jrr, before you claim this sort of thing is wildly fantastical and never happens.
  I can't even tell if this was an attempt at a straw man it's so nonresponsive.  I said she accused them of trying to date rape people.  And then you go and give basically the definition of date rape and say I should read up on it? 

Quote
it's that people that were identified can't remember anything like the reported incident, and even when the larger number of people were witness to it, they can't identify one eye witness?

You're wrong.  Not a single person has gone under oath to defend Kavanaugh with a specific denial.  You can go on Fox News and say any damn thing you like, but if you then refuse to testify under oath then how reliable should we think you are?  The accusers have now testified under oath.  I'd like to see some of the defenders do the same, except I can't because none of them are willing.  This is a very different pictures than the one you are you trying to present in which the defenders are supposed to be trustworthy for unidentified reasons but the accusers are not.
  There is not a specific denial to defend him against.  At least Judge has said under penalty of perjury that the event didn't happen.  Kavanaugh has.  I'm not sure how many of the other people questioned have or have not. 


Quote
Certainly doesn't mean any one or all of the allegations are false.  And the first two are certainly reasonably plausible events, but there seems to be reason to be skeptical. 

There is always reason to be skeptical.  How about you and I agree that we really need a proper investigation into these claims before giving a lifetime irrevocable appointment to someone?  If you are skeptical too, let's get to the bottom of it.  Can we at least find common ground on that point?  Because as of right now, Senate republicans are refusing to even allow an investigation and are pushing ahead with the confirmation vote regardless.
  There needs to be some basis for an investigation.  Ford is submitting sworn statements for the first time today I believe.  After her testimony and kavanaughs, they can decide how to proceed.  They have already been investigating and asking questions of different people identified. 

Ramirez reportedly refused to provide a sworn statement when asked and referred them to her statement to the New Yorker.  If that's true, there's nothing else to be done with that allegation. 

Avanetti's client has submitted a sworn statement under penalty of perjury and they should question her if she's willing and able to do so today or tomorrow, but they don't need to hold up the confirmation over it.  IF there is any truth to it, he can be impeached over it.  But it was a last second allegation that vaguely makes claims where she attributes intent (Did she actually see Kavanaugh spike punch and if so, how does she know he was doing it to date rape people and not just doing a normal high school party thing of providing alcohol at a party?; how in the world does she know what Kavanaugh was standing in line for; ignoring teh question of why she would keep attending high school parties as a college age student if there were gang rapes going on?) and doesn't actually provide first hand knowledge of any criminal activity involving kavanaugh other than underaged drikning (assuming that she did see him spike the punch or provide the spiked punch).  If anybody else comes forward or is identified that has knowledge of this, they can keep investigating.  But there have been multiple background checks without the whole gang rape thing coming up despite there being multiple parties where it was involved, so I'm not sure there is anything to be done until somebody with first hand knowledge comes forward.


Jrr85

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #499 on: September 27, 2018, 10:15:30 AM »

Because everyone I can find, they seem to purposefully conflate aggressiveness/coercion/assault/rape.  That's how you get ridiculous numbers like one in four college women are victims of sexual assault before they graduate.  I suspect it's also how you get ridiculous stats like members of fraternities are 3 times more likely to commit rape. 
..
Wiat a second... backup.  Are you implying that the incidences of sexual assault are much less than that?  Or that attempted rape, groping etc. should not be considered 'sexual assault.  Because eitehr is a very, very bold statement.

It's not very bold.  That number has been debunked.  As far as what constitutes sexual assault, I think reasonable people can disagree at the margins, but I don't think reasonable people agree that cat calling should be considered sexual assault, or at the very least, would be much more interested in the numbers for what is more traditionally thought of as sexual assault than numbers that lump verbal comments and physical attacks in the same category.