Poll

Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?

Yay!
Nay!
Who cares? The SCOTUS doesn't matter anyways.

Author Topic: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?  (Read 58868 times)

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #100 on: September 17, 2018, 04:27:34 PM »
So many important Senate races, Florida, Texas, Arizona, Nevada, Montana, North Dakota, West Virginia, Missouri, Indiana - a small chance Democrats can take it, but probably too late before Kavanaugh would get confirmed.

Kris

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #101 on: September 18, 2018, 01:31:54 PM »
Well.

Now, it seems the Kavanaugh camp is starting to realize they aren't gonna be able to successfully convince people it never happened.

So, their solution? Spin it, of course.

https://www.newsandguts.com/link/tpm-kavanaugh-team-now-calls-rough-horse-play/

They're calling it "rough horse play."

HORSE PLAY.

HORSE PLAY.


OurTown

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #102 on: September 18, 2018, 01:45:13 PM »
Well.

Now, it seems the Kavanaugh camp is starting to realize they aren't gonna be able to successfully convince people it never happened.

So, their solution? Spin it, of course.

https://www.newsandguts.com/link/tpm-kavanaugh-team-now-calls-rough-horse-play/

They're calling it "rough horse play."

HORSE PLAY.

HORSE PLAY.

I thought he wasn't at the party?  How can it be rough horse play if he wasn't even there?

Kris

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #103 on: September 18, 2018, 01:49:51 PM »
Well.

Now, it seems the Kavanaugh camp is starting to realize they aren't gonna be able to successfully convince people it never happened.

So, their solution? Spin it, of course.

https://www.newsandguts.com/link/tpm-kavanaugh-team-now-calls-rough-horse-play/

They're calling it "rough horse play."

HORSE PLAY.

HORSE PLAY.

I thought he wasn't at the party?  How can it be rough horse play if he wasn't even there?

Ha. Yeah. I'm thinking they've decided that "not even there" thing isn't gonna fly. So it looks like they're changing gears.

"He wasn't even there!"
"Okay, he was there, but he didn't do it!"
"Okay, but it wasn't like she says! It was only rough horse play!"

Next up:
"But he was drunk! So even if he did it, he doesn't remember it! Which is basically the same as him not even doing it, right? RIGHT?"
(Also, she was drunk so it was kind of her fault, right? RIGHT?)

FIRE@50

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #104 on: September 18, 2018, 01:50:57 PM »
60 million Americans voted for a guy that said openly admitting to sexual assault was just locker room talk. I'm struggling to see how this is any different.

sol

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #105 on: September 18, 2018, 01:57:39 PM »
I thought he wasn't at the party?  How can it be rough horse play if he wasn't even there?

The same way Donald Trump has never met Stormy Daniels.  Well, met her but didn't have an affair.  Well, had an affair but didn't pay her hush money.  Well, paid her hush money but it wasn't illegal.  Well, it was illegal but I didn't know about it.  Well, I knew about it but I didn't orchestrate.  Oh there's an audio recording of me orchestrating an illegal hush money payment to the woman I had an affair with?  Well, the public doesn't really care so look at me getting off scot-free!

I expect the Kavanaugh nomination to go the exact same way.  The Trump base can't be convinced to care.  A sexual harasser and admitted groper nominates a sexual abuser to the Supreme Court so that he can overturn Roe v. Wade?  Eleven white male republican senators on the judiciary committee excoriating the assault victim on national television?  What could possibly go wrong for them in this scenario?

We're about to find out if #metoo and #timesup have changed a damn thing, or if this sort of thing is still a totally normal part of the exercise of white male power in America today.

Dabnasty

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #106 on: September 18, 2018, 02:04:51 PM »
Well.

Now, it seems the Kavanaugh camp is starting to realize they aren't gonna be able to successfully convince people it never happened.

So, their solution? Spin it, of course.

https://www.newsandguts.com/link/tpm-kavanaugh-team-now-calls-rough-horse-play/

They're calling it "rough horse play."

HORSE PLAY.

HORSE PLAY.

I thought he wasn't at the party?  How can it be rough horse play if he wasn't even there?

Ha. Yeah. I'm thinking they've decided that "not even there" thing isn't gonna fly. So it looks like they're changing gears.

"He wasn't even there!"
"Okay, he was there, but he didn't do it!"
"Okay, but it wasn't like she says! It was only rough horse play!"

Next up:
"But he was drunk! So even if he did it, he doesn't remember it! Which is basically the same as him not even doing it, right? RIGHT?"
(Also, she was drunk so it was kind of her fault, right? RIGHT?)

This progression has become all too familiar. While I sincerely try to understand the mindset of Trump (and friends) apologists, I may never understand how someone can look at this kind of progression and say, "ya, that seems legit. I believe him now that we're at stage 4 of the denial."

partgypsy

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #107 on: September 18, 2018, 03:11:40 PM »
It reminds me of things my 5 year old (many years ago) would successively say after cookies are missing. With crumbs on her mouth. Plausible deniability only goes so far.

Glenstache

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #108 on: September 18, 2018, 03:24:26 PM »
So, according to the accusation, there were three people in the room. The second male was a friend of Kavanaugh's by the name of Mark Judge. Mark has so far refused to testify and claims that he didn't recall this happening. However, while he may not show unless actively subpoenaed, he did write a book about his partying life at Georgetown Prep. That book is called "Wasted: Tales of a Gen X Drunk". (https://www.amazon.com/Wasted-Tales-Mark-Gauvreau-Judge/dp/1568381425)

More on that here:
https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/17/politics/mark-judge-brett-kavanaugh-high-school/index.html

Of you want more of Judge's misogyny, you can find that in this wonderful (/s) op-ed he wrote for the Daily Caller:
http://dailycaller.com/2013/08/20/barack-obama-the-first-female-president/

And going back closer in time to the accusation, Judge's yearbook page has the following quote:
Quote
"Certain women should be struck regularly, like gongs,"

So, given the context of the allegations, this is probably not exactly who Kavanaugh wants as a character witness. From what I have seen, Judge's writings are entirely consistent with someone who is more likely than most to have conducted sexual assault. No wonder he doesn't want to testify about this under oath in front of the entire nation.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #109 on: September 18, 2018, 04:04:30 PM »
I have no reason to believe either Kavanagh or Judge would not like under oath.  Kavanagh has already been shown to have done so.

Our judicial system relies on people telling the truth, and many people are unwilling to do that.

Glenstache

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #110 on: September 18, 2018, 04:53:29 PM »
I have no reason to believe either Kavanagh or Judge would not like under oath.  Kavanagh has already been shown to have done so.

Our judicial system relies on people telling the truth, and many people are unwilling to do that.

Agreed, and appears to have already been the case given the story changes mentioned above. That said, I think Judge's written record would make for a very uncomfortable questioning. His defense would likely be that it was juvenile locker talk, and not to be taken seriously. I expect that McConnell is putting a lot of pressure on Collins and Murkowski right now.

partgypsy

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #111 on: September 18, 2018, 05:30:58 PM »
So, Trump is refusing to let the FBI investigate this. The Dems don't have enough power to subpeoena the friend, Judge, who presumably was a witness. So all they are allowing is for her to show up and be questioned by an all male, hostile committee? Why in the world would she do that? I feel very bad for her. 

Trump apparently also feels bad

Trump did not mention Ford's name but said he felt "terribly" for Kavanaugh, his wife "and for his beautiful young daughters."
"I feel so badly for him that he's going through this, to be honest with you, I feel so badly for him," said Trump, who has himself faced numerous accusations of sexual harassment that he's denied. "This is not a man that deserves this."

What a -weird thing to say. Either he did it, and regardless if he is a white successful lawyer or whatever he DID deserve to be accused and have the truth come out. Or if he didn't do it, doesn't matter if he is a successful lawyer or chimney sweep or even a criminal he DIDN'T deserve it. Or is Trump suggesting there should be different laws or implementation depending on who you are? Does Trump feel some are above the law? Because of their "beautiful young daughters?"  BAARF


nereo

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #112 on: September 18, 2018, 06:42:20 PM »
I have no reason to believe either Kavanagh or Judge would not like under oath.  Kavanagh has already been shown to have done so.

Our judicial system relies on people telling the truth, and many people are unwilling to do that.

This is where having the FBI investigate would be so useful. What the FBI does - very well - is corroborate personal accounts, determine plausible timelines and vet statements.  They do this by interviewing everyone from every angle and compiling documents.

It makes lying under oath exceptionally risky. That leaves the ‘safest’ option a series of “I can’t recall”, which isn’t exactly a great testimony to have against someone who’s giving a very detailed, graphic and damning account. 

Paul der Krake

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #113 on: September 18, 2018, 06:48:53 PM »
538 (well their podcast) predicts the nomination will be withdrawn.

Should be get a betting pool going for replacements?

nereo

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #114 on: September 18, 2018, 07:20:53 PM »
538 (well their podcast) predicts the nomination will be withdrawn.

Should be get a betting pool going for replacements?

If they do replace him, you’ll see the GOP try to rush the next nominee through at a speed not seen in a century. 

ETA: the irony is they have tons of time now to properly evaluate things.  If Kavanaugh really is their guy, no vote needs happen for several weeks.  Are they really sure they want to rush this through and risk more victims or a witness or something completely unknown as of now coming out?  What’s their defense going to be then (other than “we wanted to make sure we couldn’t find out!)
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 07:23:51 PM by nereo »

Paul der Krake

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #115 on: September 18, 2018, 07:27:14 PM »
538 (well their podcast) predicts the nomination will be withdrawn.

Should be get a betting pool going for replacements?

If they do replace him, you’ll see the GOP try to rush the next nominee through at a speed not seen in a century. 

ETA: the irony is they have tons of time now to properly evaluate things.  If Kavanaugh really is their guy, no vote needs happen for several weeks.  Are they really sure they want to rush this through and risk more victims or a witness or something completely unknown as of now coming out?  What’s their defense going to be then (other than “we wanted to make sure we couldn’t find out!)
Well, if the nomination is yanked, it will be this week. After which they just need to get the new guy confirmed before the new Congress shows up in January. No need to rush that much.

nereo

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #116 on: September 18, 2018, 07:36:38 PM »
It looks like you are right, Paul.  Most recent justices have taken 2-3 months from nomination to confirmation, with a few taking just a few weeks (Roberts and Stevens)

...I guess it just *feels* like forever, given the media saturation.

oldtoyota

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #117 on: September 18, 2018, 07:40:42 PM »
I'll out myself as one who voted "Yay." Not because I think he's great or because I agree with all his positions (I don't), but because I think he's well qualified and has the legal experience and expertise to do the job. Given the instability and chaotic nature of the current POTUS I think Kavanaugh is a surprisingly decent pick, likely due to decades of behind the scenes work by the Federalist Society. The fact that an extremely motivated opponent can only come up with nitpickery such as a sporting event debt from years ago (meh, I forget the details) or that he didn't shake someone's hand, is a pretty good indicator that he's thoroughly vetted and not some crazy person. And believe you me, I think Trump probably could have nominated some pretty wackadoodle candidates.

Do you still feel this way?

oldtoyota

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #118 on: September 18, 2018, 07:42:25 PM »
60 million Americans voted for a guy that said openly admitting to sexual assault was just locker room talk. I'm struggling to see how this is any different.

Harvey Weinstein
Bill Cosby
Kevin Spacey

It's different now. But is it different enough?


oldtoyota

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #119 on: September 18, 2018, 07:43:44 PM »
I thought he wasn't at the party?  How can it be rough horse play if he wasn't even there?

The same way Donald Trump has never met Stormy Daniels.  Well, met her but didn't have an affair.  Well, had an affair but didn't pay her hush money.  Well, paid her hush money but it wasn't illegal.  Well, it was illegal but I didn't know about it.  Well, I knew about it but I didn't orchestrate.  Oh there's an audio recording of me orchestrating an illegal hush money payment to the woman I had an affair with?  Well, the public doesn't really care so look at me getting off scot-free!

I expect the Kavanaugh nomination to go the exact same way. The Trump base can't be convinced to care.... 

The Trump base is small and, I hear, shaped like a mushroom.

partgypsy

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #120 on: September 19, 2018, 07:11:15 AM »
I keep hearing mushroom jokes. Is there something I missed?


I thought this was a good article about false rape accusations

https://qz.com/980766/the-truth-about-false-rape-accusations/

GuitarStv

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #121 on: September 19, 2018, 07:19:01 AM »

former player

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #122 on: September 19, 2018, 07:25:11 AM »
Oh ye dogs.

I thought it would be an updating of the old mushroom joke: Trump supporters are being kept in the dark and having shit shovelled on them.

partgypsy

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #123 on: September 19, 2018, 08:07:56 AM »
I keep hearing mushroom jokes. Is there something I missed?


I thought this was a good article about false rape accusations

https://qz.com/980766/the-truth-about-false-rape-accusations/

https://www.vox.com/2018/9/18/17874168/toad-stormy-daniels-trump-mario-kart

Like many, did not want that image in my mind.

thd7t

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #124 on: September 19, 2018, 08:11:25 AM »
So, according to the accusation, there were three people in the room. The second male was a friend of Kavanaugh's by the name of Mark Judge. Mark has so far refused to testify and claims that he didn't recall this happening. However, while he may not show unless actively subpoenaed, he did write a book about his partying life at Georgetown Prep. That book is called "Wasted: Tales of a Gen X Drunk". (https://www.amazon.com/Wasted-Tales-Mark-Gauvreau-Judge/dp/1568381425)

More on that here:
https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/17/politics/mark-judge-brett-kavanaugh-high-school/index.html

Of you want more of Judge's misogyny, you can find that in this wonderful (/s) op-ed he wrote for the Daily Caller:
http://dailycaller.com/2013/08/20/barack-obama-the-first-female-president/

And going back closer in time to the accusation, Judge's yearbook page has the following quote:
Quote
"Certain women should be struck regularly, like gongs,"

So, given the context of the allegations, this is probably not exactly who Kavanaugh wants as a character witness. From what I have seen, Judge's writings are entirely consistent with someone who is more likely than most to have conducted sexual assault. No wonder he doesn't want to testify about this under oath in front of the entire nation.
It's not like Judge's book references Kavanaugh.  Well, I mean there is a bit about "Bart O'Kavanaugh" passing out drunk and puking in a friend's car, but not Brett Kavanaugh...

nereo

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #125 on: September 19, 2018, 08:12:18 AM »
Toad was always my favorite player. 
Dammit - yet another thing ruined from my childhood.

GuitarStv

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #126 on: September 19, 2018, 08:31:50 AM »
Toad was always my favorite player. 
Dammit - yet another thing ruined from my childhood.

I for one refuse to let the president ruin yet another aspect of my life and am going to continue driving Donald Trump's penis around in Mario Kart as I did before.

sol

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #127 on: September 19, 2018, 08:38:32 AM »
I for one refuse to let the president ruin yet another aspect of my life and am going to continue driving Donald Trump's penis around in Mario Kart as I did before.

"Another"?  This might be the first thing Donald Trump has done that has obviously and directly affected my personal quality of life.  I'm not an immigrant, or a woman, or lbgtq, or military, or a minority, or disabled, or a rival celebrity, or a member of his administration.  Trump surely has a lot of negativity to dish out, but he has studiously avoided sending any my way.

Until the Toad penis thing.  Suddenly this administration is hitting me right in the feelz.

GuitarStv

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #128 on: September 19, 2018, 08:41:45 AM »
I for one refuse to let the president ruin yet another aspect of my life and am going to continue driving Donald Trump's penis around in Mario Kart as I did before.

"Another"?  This might be the first thing Donald Trump has done that has obviously and directly affected my personal quality of life.  I'm not an immigrant, or a woman, or lbgtq, or military, or a minority, or disabled, or a rival celebrity, or a member of his administration.  Trump surely has a lot of negativity to dish out, but he has studiously avoided sending any my way.

Until the Toad penis thing.  Suddenly this administration is hitting me right in the feelz mushroom.

:P

nereo

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #129 on: September 19, 2018, 08:46:22 AM »
Toad was always my favorite player. 
Dammit - yet another thing ruined from my childhood.

I for one refuse to let the president ruin yet another aspect of my life and am going to continue driving Donald Trump's penis around in Mario Kart as I did before.

How long will it take before some programmer makes a skin for Mario Cart replacing Toad with ....  nevermind.

GuitarStv

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #130 on: September 19, 2018, 08:50:49 AM »
Toad was always my favorite player. 
Dammit - yet another thing ruined from my childhood.

I for one refuse to let the president ruin yet another aspect of my life and am going to continue driving Donald Trump's penis around in Mario Kart as I did before.

How long will it take before some programmer makes a skin for Mario Cart replacing Toad with ....  nevermind.

The President's health status is . . . unclear.  He also has a long history of risky sexual dalliances with other partners.  The current depiction of toad could well be an accurate representation.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #131 on: September 19, 2018, 08:57:36 AM »
I for one refuse to let the president ruin yet another aspect of my life and am going to continue driving Donald Trump's penis around in Mario Kart as I did before.

"Another"?  This might be the first thing Donald Trump has done that has obviously and directly affected my personal quality of life.  I'm not an immigrant, or a woman, or lbgtq, or military, or a minority, or disabled, or a rival celebrity, or a member of his administration.  Trump surely has a lot of negativity to dish out, but he has studiously avoided sending any my way.

Until the Toad penis thing.  Suddenly this administration is hitting me right in the feelz.

Well, I'm glad you too can suddenly see how so many of the rest of us are feeling because the administration is affecting us personally.

talltexan

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #132 on: September 19, 2018, 10:04:41 AM »
I'm implementing a filter in deciding about all these issues: if I didn't know Trump's position on the matter, what would I think? I don't like having conservative justices on the Supreme Court, and I don't like having attempted rapists on the Supreme Court. So I would like to know the truth about these Ford allegations, but I think the process is in place to get to that truth.

Assuming McConnel lets that process play out. My guess is he'd like to have a vote on Kavanaugh before the mid-terms so that he can get the Red State Democrats on the record as a "yay" or "nay". Unfortunately for him, these allegations give the Red State democrats cover for voting "Nay". While the sensation around Trump grabs headlines, I think historians will come to realize that Mitch McConnel was the most important person in this period of history (this is not a compliment), much in the way Newt Gingrich defined the late 1990's. He has an excellent chance of maintaining his majority in the Senate for another two years.

talltexan

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #133 on: September 19, 2018, 10:10:58 AM »
One more note: the Kavanaugh allegations seem much less severe than the Clarence Thomas allegations did. And McConnel is more pressured by the timing with regard to midterms. But I do not know how to weigh the extent to which society has changed wrt to the #metoo movement.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #134 on: September 19, 2018, 10:22:45 AM »
Nominate Jeff Sessions to SCOTUS, make Kavanaugh Attorney General, and you solve two problems at once!

nereo

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #135 on: September 19, 2018, 11:09:06 AM »
I'm implementing a filter in deciding about all these issues: if I didn't know Trump's position on the matter, what would I think? I don't like having conservative justices on the Supreme Court, and I don't like having attempted rapists on the Supreme Court. So I would like to know the truth about these Ford allegations, but I think the process is in place to get to that truth.

Assuming McConnel lets that process play out. My guess is he'd like to have a vote on Kavanaugh before the mid-terms so that he can get the Red State Democrats on the record as a "yay" or "nay". Unfortunately for him, these allegations give the Red State democrats cover for voting "Nay". While the sensation around Trump grabs headlines, I think historians will come to realize that Mitch McConnel was the most important person in this period of history (this is not a compliment), much in the way Newt Gingrich defined the late 1990's. He has an excellent chance of maintaining his majority in the Senate for another two years.
One more note: the Kavanaugh allegations seem much less severe than the Clarence Thomas allegations did. And McConnel is more pressured by the timing with regard to midterms. But I do not know how to weigh the extent to which society has changed wrt to the #metoo movement.

Curious - why do you think that these allegations are much less severe (emphasis yours) than those against Clarence Thomas?  Seems to me Kavanaugh is accused of both assault and attempted rape of a minor, and (depending on your read) with an accomplice (she allegedly escaped when Judge tumbled onto bed with Kavanaugh).

talltexan

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #136 on: September 19, 2018, 11:37:37 AM »
The Thomas/hill allegations were much more recent, involved actions by an adult, and established a pattern of behavior that was more compelling than the pattern of Kavanaugh's behavior. I do think you raise important points, and I realize that an expert in the law may find your objections more compelling.

I don't think anyone seriously expects the allegations by Dr. Ford to lead to a criminal conviction.

sol

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #137 on: September 19, 2018, 11:44:16 AM »
I don't think anyone seriously expects the allegations by Dr. Ford to lead to a criminal conviction.

Isn't that part of the problem, though?  That white male privilege is so fully entrenched in our society that sexual assault of a minor not only goes totally unpunished, it doesn't even preclude the perpetrator from holding the position of highest moral authority in the US government?

Kavanaugh's behavior all of those years ago, which absolutely was criminal, are part of a lifelong pattern of subjugating women's rights and women't autonomy.  He has no place in modern society, much less in government, much less on the Supreme Court.  He is the modern equivalent to appointing Rick Perry and Scott Pruitt to lead the agencies they have spent a lifetime trying to destroy.  Only in this case it's not some basic government function they want to subvert, it's morality itself.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #138 on: September 19, 2018, 11:46:30 AM »
Both Thomas and Kavanaugh behaved in ways that show them thinking that women's minds and bodies are at their disposal for sexual gratification.  Both Thomas and Kavanaugh will make judgements binding on women that restrict women's autonomy over their own bodies.

The law is a refuge for the weak against the powerful.  The Supreme Court is the last resort for protection for 160 million women.  If Kavanaugh is confirmed as a justice then two out of nine members of that Court will be men who have been credibly accused of violating the rights of women in their personal capacities and are on record as wanting to violate the rights of women in their professional capacities.

It's a complete and utter fucking disgrace.

Jrr85

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #139 on: September 19, 2018, 12:17:00 PM »


You are completely unhinged on this and completely ahistorical. 

the implications for this question could include Kavanaugh having to recuse himself with any cases that would come before the Supreme Court regarding the Mueller investigation.

I wouldn't count on it.  Recusal is only enforced as a matter of personal integrity, and Kavanaugh has never let integrity get in the way of advancing the conservative agenda.  I'm betting he would refuse to recuse, then rule in Trump's favor, despite of his prior work for the Trump campaign.
  Kavanaugh has been on the D.C. Circuit court for over a decade.  He didn't do any work for the Trump campaign. 


I don't think that I can agree that both sides have a double standard though

These things aren't even in the same universe.  Conservatives made a huge fuss about Elena Kagan's refusal to recuse herself from the Obamacare case, and that was only because other people at her law firm had worked on it.  She wasn't even involved, and they still threw a fit over it because they thought she might have been influenced by the political views of her former partners.
  Elena Kagan was solicitor general when Obamacare was passed.  It wasn't that she was a member of a law firm that did work.  She oversaw the attorneys doing the work, and was to be brought in as needed. 


That is a far cry from Kavanaugh's situation, where he has personally and openly advocated subverting the law to advance conservative causes.
Yea...No.  You're reading some conspiracy stuff somewhere I guess.  I do wish Kavanaugh hadn't been involved with Kenneth Starr's investigation, but his career is not atypical for a circuit court judge or supreme court justice.   

  He is a partisan appointee in the way that no democratic appointee has ever been.
  Again, no.  He looks basically like Roberts.  An incrementalist with an originalist bent.  He certainly could change once he's on the supreme court, but I doubt he's some manchurian candidate that is going to turn into a rabid activist once he's sworn in.  If anything, he'll be partisan in the way Kagan is partisan.  Mostly able to apply the law but biased in close calls or on subjects that are particularly important to his personal political beliefs.   
 

But none of that matters.  As I've previously pointed out, Republicans could appoint a dancing monkey to the supreme court and then laugh in your face about it.  They don't care about what's "right" and they definitely don't care about what the people want.  Remember when their tax plan had a 34% approval rating and they passed it anyway because their big-money corporate donors wanted it?  Remember their ~40 votes to "repeal and replace" the ACA?  Remember Republicans getting a minority of the national popular vote and yet still commandeering every branch of government?

The entire Republican party stands for one thing these days, and that's using procedural technicalities to enforce the will of a wealthy elite minority on the entirety of America.  They are good at it!  They don't need or want your support, they already have all the power and they plan to keep it that way.  Confirming a partisan tool like Kavanaugh is just the latest example of the party subverting American democracy, of using power to retain power.


Paul der Krake

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #140 on: September 19, 2018, 12:43:03 PM »
Isn't that part of the problem, though?  That white male privilege is so fully entrenched in our society that sexual assault of a minor not only goes totally unpunished, it doesn't even preclude the perpetrator from holding the position of highest moral authority in the US government?
From a legal standpoint, it will go totally unpunished because the victim sat on this for over 3 decades. Barring the surfacing of some very strong evidence, the window to do anything about it has long closed. I find the victim's testimony to be quite credible, and it may very well have happened exactly as the victim says it did, but that's not enough to convict.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #141 on: September 19, 2018, 12:52:20 PM »
Isn't that part of the problem, though?  That white male privilege is so fully entrenched in our society that sexual assault of a minor not only goes totally unpunished, it doesn't even preclude the perpetrator from holding the position of highest moral authority in the US government?
From a legal standpoint, it will go totally unpunished because the victim sat on this for over 3 decades. Barring the surfacing of some very strong evidence, the window to do anything about it has long closed. I find the victim's testimony to be quite credible, and it may very well have happened exactly as the victim says it did, but that's not enough to convict.


Whether or not it is enough to convict is irrelevant.  There is and will be no criminal investigation.  What there should be is an investigation into whether Kavanaugh is an appropriate person to sit on the Supreme Court.  He is credibly accused of attempted rape.  He is also credibly accused of perjury.  On both counts he is not an appropriate person to sit on the Supreme Court.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #142 on: September 19, 2018, 01:06:26 PM »
Isn't that part of the problem, though?  That white male privilege is so fully entrenched in our society that sexual assault of a minor not only goes totally unpunished, it doesn't even preclude the perpetrator from holding the position of highest moral authority in the US government?
From a legal standpoint, it will go totally unpunished because the victim sat on this for over 3 decades. Barring the surfacing of some very strong evidence, the window to do anything about it has long closed. I find the victim's testimony to be quite credible, and it may very well have happened exactly as the victim says it did, but that's not enough to convict.


Whether or not it is enough to convict is irrelevant.  There is and will be no criminal investigation.  What there should be is an investigation into whether Kavanaugh is an appropriate person to sit on the Supreme Court.  He is credibly accused of attempted rape.  He is also credibly accused of perjury.  On both counts he is not an appropriate person to sit on the Supreme Court.
Isn't this exactly what the confirmation process is about? It looks like it will not be confirmed over this, so it looks like this is working as intended.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #143 on: September 19, 2018, 01:10:56 PM »
Isn't that part of the problem, though?  That white male privilege is so fully entrenched in our society that sexual assault of a minor not only goes totally unpunished, it doesn't even preclude the perpetrator from holding the position of highest moral authority in the US government?
From a legal standpoint, it will go totally unpunished because the victim sat on this for over 3 decades. Barring the surfacing of some very strong evidence, the window to do anything about it has long closed. I find the victim's testimony to be quite credible, and it may very well have happened exactly as the victim says it did, but that's not enough to convict.


Whether or not it is enough to convict is irrelevant.  There is and will be no criminal investigation.  What there should be is an investigation into whether Kavanaugh is an appropriate person to sit on the Supreme Court.  He is credibly accused of attempted rape.  He is also credibly accused of perjury.  On both counts he is not an appropriate person to sit on the Supreme Court.
Isn't this exactly what the confirmation process is about? It looks like it will not be confirmed over this, so it looks like this is working as intended.

I'd like to think you are right that he won't be confirmed but I'm not confident.

redbirdfan

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #144 on: September 19, 2018, 01:54:08 PM »
I am a Republican.  I do not want Kavanaugh to be confirmed.  This isn't a matter of boys being boys.  Sexual harassment and sexual assault may have been common in school and the workplace up until recently, but I don't think it's too much to ask that the people appointed to the highest court in the land not have particularly hideous and credible allegations of violating the law in their respective past.  It's a job with 9 positions.  The Federalist Society literally has a list of potential justices at the ready and Kavanaugh was not on the initial list.

The larger issue is about the protecting the legitimacy of the Court.  We are about to enter an era in which the majority of the Republican side of the court was nominated by presidents who (initially) lost the popular vote.  We are already in an era in which Gorsuch's seat probably wouldn't have been available in normal times.  To add a justice nominated by a president who lost the popular vote AND who is under federal investigation when that justice has outlier views on executive power AND when there is a credible accusation of attempted rape against him AND he has provided perjury-adjacent testimony is just a bridge too far.  I don't understand how you can deny being at a party when you have no idea when or where the party was.  That is suspicious unless Kavanaugh NEVER attended a high school party at which he consumed alcohol.  At the very least Dr. Ford should provide a list of people she recalls being at said party and those people should be interviewed under oath prior to a confirmation vote.  I do not think this is too much to require before a lifetime appointment is doled out.  That process wouldn't take longer than a week or two.

The legitimacy of the court has never really been called into question during my lifetime.  I'm afraid if women's rights are chipped away (read: re-defined under the Constitution), it will not go over well to have Thomas and Kavanaugh leading the way.  I believe we need to reset and regroup.  Kavanaugh's nomination should be pulled.  I don't think Democrats will be excited about who comes next, but that's a different story for a different day.  Just my $.02.   


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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #145 on: September 19, 2018, 02:06:53 PM »
Isn't that part of the problem, though?  That white male privilege is so fully entrenched in our society that sexual assault of a minor not only goes totally unpunished, it doesn't even preclude the perpetrator from holding the position of highest moral authority in the US government?
From a legal standpoint, it will go totally unpunished because the victim sat on this for over 3 decades. Barring the surfacing of some very strong evidence, the window to do anything about it has long closed. I find the victim's testimony to be quite credible, and it may very well have happened exactly as the victim says it did, but that's not enough to convict.


Whether or not it is enough to convict is irrelevant.  There is and will be no criminal investigation.  What there should be is an investigation into whether Kavanaugh is an appropriate person to sit on the Supreme Court.  He is credibly accused of attempted rape.  He is also credibly accused of perjury.  On both counts he is not an appropriate person to sit on the Supreme Court.
Isn't this exactly what the confirmation process is about? It looks like it will not be confirmed over this, so it looks like this is working as intended.

I'd like to think you are right that he won't be confirmed but I'm not confident.

Before all this I would have said 100% chance he gets confirmed. Now, a good solid 80% chance. Never underestimate the current administration and this Republican majority. 

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #146 on: September 20, 2018, 11:22:23 AM »
Man, you can't make this stuff up...

Roy Moore, the GOP candidate and former judge who lost the special Senate election in Georgia after eight women accused him of sexual misconduct, is now endorsing Bret Kavanaugh.

In his endorsement, Moore is warning that Dems are "weaponizing" sexual misconduct decades earlier to defeat Republican candidates.  I'm not sure how much worse the optics could be here - maybe if Harvey Weinstein suddenly wrote an op-ed in Kavanaugh's support?  I mean... really??

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #147 on: September 20, 2018, 11:25:21 AM »
I'm not sure how much worse the optics could be here - maybe if Harvey Weinstein suddenly wrote an op-ed in Kavanaugh's support?  I mean... really??

Maybe if the pussy-grabber in chief were too... oh wait, nevermind.

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #148 on: September 20, 2018, 11:42:23 AM »
Man, you can't make this stuff up...

Roy Moore, the GOP candidate and former judge who lost the special Senate election in Georgia after eight women accused him of sexual misconduct, is now endorsing Bret Kavanaugh.

In his endorsement, Moore is warning that Dems are "weaponizing" sexual misconduct decades earlier to defeat Republican candidates.  I'm not sure how much worse the optics could be here - maybe if Harvey Weinstein suddenly wrote an op-ed in Kavanaugh's support?  I mean... really??

Ha. I can imagine the call from McDaniel (RNC Chair) to Moore:

"Wtf? Are you trying to hurt the party?"

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Re: Brett Kavanaguh: Yay or Nay?
« Reply #149 on: September 20, 2018, 11:54:57 AM »
Probably trying to keep his name in the news and in front of Trump, after all there is an Attorney General that's going to need replacing in a few weeks.