Boundaries on social media (with men in particular)

[Kris]

OP, I think this might also have something to do with studies that suggest men tend toward being overconfident in their abilities and performance, whereas women tend toward being underconfident.

To add, I read a study a while back that //some// men interpret women being nice to them as being romantically or sexually interested in them. Women interpret it as just being nice.

I think a lot of those on the internet and social media somehow think that it's anonymous still? Maybe? Like what you say and do wont come back to you? That's all I can think of. Women get a lot of shit. I'll do self assessments every once in a while to make sure I'm not being an asshole... and then I remember I don't sent dick pics to anybody and I feel better.


ETA: Actually will confess that I did send a dick pic when I got a smart phone about two years ago. But it was a picture of Richard Nixon.

Yep.

When I was younger especially, I had quite a few problems with men interpreting normal friendliness/niceness as a come-on or invitation. And then many would try to wheedle me into accepting their advances after that, or try to get me to “admit” I had been flirting, etc.

So, I stopped being friendly to men in public situations.I tried to stop smiling, tried not to engage, tried to ignore them to the extent possible whenever I thought there might be a chance they would use any gesture on my part as a sign of encouragement.

What happened? Guys would try to “cheer me up,” or get me to smile, or get me to talk to them. They saw it as a challenge.

And then when I wouldn’t open up, frequently the result was they would get mad and start hurling insults at me. Bitch and dyke were the most common ones.

Sometimes you just can’t win.

[use2betrix]

I’ve worn very provocative costumes for countless Halloween’s (male). I’ve worn assess leather chaps with little white Armani underwear on multiple occasions.

I have had more random women at bars and on the streets around bars grab my ass unexpectedly than I can count. At least a handful have also grabbed my crotch without warning. Since I’ve been with my wife the last 7 years (still wear the same costumes) even though she’s with me, it still happens. Women have even asked her if they can grab my ass. Even not in a costume I can think of a few times I have had women grab my ass in jeans. Once I’ll never forget in Denver at a bar.. Grabbed my ass as she walked by, turned around, looked at me and winked and said “I just had to check” whatever that means, and she walked off.

My wife, on the other hand, is about 5’1, 115 lbs and squats twice her body weight. She is a smoking hot little Hispanic girl with perfect tan skin. She has guys creep on her sometimes. Guys will check her out at the gym, make comments in parking lots, etc. Since we have met, not a single man has ever inappropriately touched her. Ever.

There are certainly creepy guys out there. Probably out number women 20:1. There is absolutely a double standard when it comes to women. I guess women get away with it because many men just don’t care.. I never really did, and my wife and I usually just got a good laugh out of it.

[SwordGuy]

One lady artist I know has the same problem with creepy or abusive guys online.   She get the whole gamut of stuff from them.

If the pictures came to her via Facebook, she started looking up the sender's relatives, particularly spouses, parents, ADULT brothers and sisters, and ADULT children.   Then she would forward screen shots of those messages to the relatives, along with a cover note something like this:

"Hi,  your (husband/son/father/brother/whatever) decided to send me this unsolicited picture of himself.  I don't know why and I don't care, but it would be nice if you would teach him some manners about this."


Or, she'll post screenshots of his messages to her publicly (masking the part of the picture so it's not obscene) and let the world know what this person was sending her.  She doesn't hide who sent it.


It's the next best thing to a hellfire missile from a drone strike when they're on the highway alone in their car.

[accolay]

What happened? Guys would try to “cheer me up,” or get me to smile, or get me to talk to them. They saw it as a challenge.
Sometimes you just can’t win.

Yeah. I don't understand. My lady tells me of these things too. Almost unfuckingbelieveable.

Example-  Situation: girl wearing headphones listening to music. Some guys thought process?: I see you're wearing headphones, but I really want to chat you up and therefore, even though you're doing something, I'm going to bother you, a complete stranger, and ask you to stop what you're doing so you can speak to me, a stranger, about some inane bullshit. Letmegetyourdigitssweatheart.

Honestly, it pisses me off for her. She doesn't really like going to a lot of places by herself. And as in your examples, the situation can't always end because some of these guys get really aggressive, since I guess their ego has been wounded.

There are times and places for everything, but I wish a lot of dudes could take a hint. They make the rest of us look bad.

Brings to mind this shit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A

[iris lily]

I don't use social media . . . because it always seemed like a kinda gross voyeuristic waste of time with virtually no benefit to my personal or professional life.  I'd recommend that others do the same.

Information on social media is not true.  Friends on social media are not real friends.  Contact through social media is not a substitute for real (face to face or over the phone) contact with another human being.  It's kinda live Las Vegas . . . everything looks pretty cool initially (or when you're a bit hammered late at night), but once you get up close to it you start to see how it's all ultimately unsatisfying faked facades devoid of real substance.  Just an empty shell designed to extract from rather than benefit you.

This forum is social media.

Maybe technically?  I'm not sure that I'd classify most internet forums in the same category as your facebooks / twitters though.  There's typically a maintenance of anonymity, and with it a healthy distancing from others on a forum that is quite different.

Do ya think my IG, Snapchat, Twitter and etc are under my real name? And until Markie Mark Zuckerberg made me revise my nickname, neither was my Facebook account under my real name. I could have changed my FB account to an entirely fake first and last name but I just decided to go straight and then I locked it all down.

It's an awful lot easier to pull personal information from pictures than text . . . and snapchat and instagram exist entirely to post personal pictures.  Facebook doesn't work at all with anonymity.  I guess that twitter could be used in an anonymous way too, but the rest of them are kinda designed to make it hard to stay anonymous.

Sure FB works with anonymity. When I had my account  under a one word fake name it worked just the way I wanted it to work—I could look up people and join groups but keep others from finding me. There are many accounts on FB with fake names. And dogs. For many many Facebook and IG accounts representing dogs.

[iris lily]

Dick pics ARE illegal in many jurisdictions. It is just that cops wont go after them given the heavy load of their other work. I am not even sure IRL dick displays gets much slap down from our gendarmes.

If it always amusing to me how the liberal mindsent is convinced another law will solve the problem whatever it may be. And oh yeah, all of those fees collected can fund some kind of do-gooder effort.

What does that have to do with any of the ideas or discussion here?  Do only liberals prefer not to be send unsolicited photos of strangers genitalia?  Please explain.

It is silly to suggest that only those of a particular political persuasion are offended by receiving unsolicited pictures of genitalia. That was not my point but you know that. My point was about consequences and the law.

Given limited law enforcement resources, it is impractical to think that stricter laws should be made and/or enforced. The Law is seldom effective at taming the lesser nuisance behaviors in society. I live in the urban core and I see it regularly. People peeing in the street (and not always men, Mardi Gras brings young women hiking up their skirts in our yards) Public drunkenness, aggressive panhandling, long shouting of obscenities on the street.

But pass a whole bunch more laws if you like. It won’t change a thing but might make you feel better.

[iris lily]

*Iris Lily, some things read better when they are proof read...

That is an excellent observation! I will take that under advisement.

[RetiredAt63]

Dick pics ARE illegal in many jurisdictions. It is just that cops wont go after them given the heavy load of their other work. I am not even sure IRL dick displays gets much slap down from our gendarmes.

If it always amusing to me how the liberal mindsent is convinced another law will solve the problem whatever it may be. And oh yeah, all of those fees collected can fund some kind of do-gooder effort.

What does that have to do with any of the ideas or discussion here?  Do only liberals prefer not to be send unsolicited photos of strangers genitalia?  Please explain.

It is silly to suggest that only those of a particular political persuasion are offended by receiving unsolicited pictures of genitalia. That was not my point but you know that. My point was about consequences and the law.

Given limited law enforcement resources, it is impractical to think that stricter laws should be made and/or enforced. The Law is seldom effective at taming the lesser nuisance behaviors in society. I live in the urban core and I see it regularly. People peeing in the street (and not always men, Mardi Gras brings young women hiking up their skirts in our yards) Public drunkenness, aggressive panhandling, long shouting of obscenities on the street.

But pass a whole bunch more laws if you like. It won’t change a thing but might make you feel better.

I asked you upthread, since you think the laws the liberal mindset might suggest won't work, what would the conservative mind set suggest?  What will reduce this antisocial behaviour?  How do we avoid it?  Will we end up in gated communities?  What?

Seriously, if you are going to bring a political element into the discussion, you need to provide an alternative political answer. Or it is all hot-air rhetoric and name-calling.

[iris lily]

Dick pics ARE illegal in many jurisdictions. It is just that cops wont go after them given the heavy load of their other work. I am not even sure IRL dick displays gets much slap down from our gendarmes.

If it always amusing to me how the liberal mindsent is convinced another law will solve the problem whatever it may be. And oh yeah, all of those fees collected can fund some kind of do-gooder effort.

What does that have to do with any of the ideas or discussion here?  Do only liberals prefer not to be send unsolicited photos of strangers genitalia?  Please explain.

It is silly to suggest that only those of a particular political persuasion are offended by receiving unsolicited pictures of genitalia. That was not my point but you know that. My point was about consequences and the law.

Given limited law enforcement resources, it is impractical to think that stricter laws should be made and/or enforced. The Law is seldom effective at taming the lesser nuisance behaviors in society. I live in the urban core and I see it regularly. People peeing in the street (and not always men, Mardi Gras brings young women hiking up their skirts in our yards) Public drunkenness, aggressive panhandling, long shouting of obscenities on the street.

But pass a whole bunch more laws if you like. It won’t change a thing but might make you feel better.

I asked you upthread, since you think the laws the liberal mindset might suggest won't work, what would the conservative mind set suggest?  What will reduce this antisocial behaviour?  How do we avoid it?  Will we end up in gated communities?  What?

Seriously, if you are going to bring a political element into the discussion, you need to provide an alternative political answer. Or it is all hot-air rhetoric and name-calling.

Social pressure is the best thing, I think, to reduce poor behaviors. But honestly, poor behavior will always be with us, every culture has its examples. And then, crossing cultural boundaries brings up more examples of cultural norms that are not a “norm”  from one culture to another.

If all of us in our sphere of influence make an effort to address the behaviors we think are wrong – and by addressing I mean talking to other humans, commenting on poor behavior -teaching the younguns what is acceptable— that goes toward setting a standard. I Think the example above where somebody returned pictures of genitalia with STDs is funny. I think we have to be careful not to, on one hand, Make fun of Judgy people while at the same time expecting The Law to take care of all of these micro aggressions in our society.

Grumpy grannies and nagging nannies have a place in society for reminding us all of  social mores. They have a long held tradition in maintaining social control.

So in summary, everyone of us has to work to maintain societal standards do not count on the law to do it for us. Take ownership of your block, your neighborhood, your society, and our online community.

[Kyle Schuant]

It's not an education problem, it's a problem of removed constraints.

It's an education problem, unfortunately it's the education the male got from his parents - especially his father - as a child. There's a saying that integrity is about how you act when nobody is looking. This is taught as a child. It's a slow process, I know because I have a son. So it's too late for the cocksmocks online. All we can do is name and shame them.

It's one reason I post under my real name. I think more people should do so. It makes you think about what words you want to put down for posterity. I mean, even without that people can and do dig up something you said ten years ago and use it against you...

[tralfamadorian]

OP, I think this might also have something to do with studies that suggest men tend toward being overconfident in their abilities and performance, whereas women tend toward being underconfident.

To add, I read a study a while back that //some// men interpret women being nice to them as being romantically or sexually interested in them. Women interpret it as just being nice.

I think a lot of those on the internet and social media somehow think that it's anonymous still? Maybe? Like what you say and do wont come back to you? That's all I can think of. Women get a lot of shit. I'll do self assessments every once in a while to make sure I'm not being an asshole... and then I remember I don't sent dick pics to anybody and I feel better.


ETA: Actually will confess that I did send a dick pic when I got a smart phone about two years ago. But it was a picture of Richard Nixon.

Yep.

When I was younger especially, I had quite a few problems with men interpreting normal friendliness/niceness as a come-on or invitation. And then many would try to wheedle me into accepting their advances after that, or try to get me to “admit” I had been flirting, etc.

So, I stopped being friendly to men in public situations.I tried to stop smiling, tried not to engage, tried to ignore them to the extent possible whenever I thought there might be a chance they would use any gesture on my part as a sign of encouragement.

What happened? Guys would try to “cheer me up,” or get me to smile, or get me to talk to them. They saw it as a challenge.

And then when I wouldn’t open up, frequently the result was they would get mad and start hurling insults at me. Bitch and dyke were the most common ones.

Sometimes you just can’t win.

Indeed. You're either asking for it or being a frigid ice queen bitch.

[ysette9]

That is one thing I really love about getting into my late 30s: I’ve pretty much become invisible to that sort of asshole man.

[iris lily]

It's not an education problem, it's a problem of removed constraints.

It's an education problem, unfortunately it's the education the male got from his parents - especially his father - as a child. There's a saying that integrity is about how you act when nobody is looking. This is taught as a child. It's a slow process, I know because I have a son. So it's too late for the cocksmocks online. All we can do is name and shame them.

It's one reason I post under my real name. I think more people should do so. It makes you think about what words you want to put down for posterity. I mean, even without that people can and do dig up something you said ten years ago and use it against you...

Yes, I can see that even though I am not going to do it in the wild and wooly world of social media.For the most part anyway.

I use my real name for Nextdoor. I  use that differently I talk online to people I actually know in real life.

[mm1970]

Yep.

My full time job is as a romance author.

I hardly ever accept friend requests from men. For this very reason.

No freaking way! Full-time? That is awsome!

Why aren't we friends??? Can I send you a.....oops.

Ah ha.  I was going to respond to Kris though - I think that's awesome.  I used to read a lot of romance, and long ago thought of trying to write.   

[partgypsy]

I’ve worn very provocative costumes for countless Halloween’s (male). I’ve worn assess leather chaps with little white Armani underwear on multiple occasions.

I have had more random women at bars and on the streets around bars grab my ass unexpectedly than I can count. At least a handful have also grabbed my crotch without warning. Since I’ve been with my wife the last 7 years (still wear the same costumes) even though she’s with me, it still happens. Women have even asked her if they can grab my ass. Even not in a costume I can think of a few times I have had women grab my ass in jeans. Once I’ll never forget in Denver at a bar.. Grabbed my ass as she walked by, turned around, looked at me and winked and said “I just had to check” whatever that means, and she walked off.

My wife, on the other hand, is about 5’1, 115 lbs and squats twice her body weight. She is a smoking hot little Hispanic girl with perfect tan skin. She has guys creep on her sometimes. Guys will check her out at the gym, make comments in parking lots, etc. Since we have met, not a single man has ever inappropriately touched her. Ever.

There are certainly creepy guys out there. Probably out number women 20:1. There is absolutely a double standard when it comes to women. I guess women get away with it because many men just don’t care.. I never really did, and my wife and I usually just got a good laugh out of it.

Not saying it's right, but most men find that kind of attention and touching from women as less "unwanted" and certainly less physically threatening than a woman receiving similar kind of attention from men.  Results may vary however as you can see from clip below women can be guilty of unwanted sexual advances.
http://www.fox5dc.com/news/local-news/woman-twerking-on-camera-wanted-for-sex-abuse-in-dc

[RetiredAt63]

I think a woman grabbing a man's bum is just as bad as a man grabbing a woman's bum.  He may not feel as potentially threatened by it as she would be, but they are equally bad and uncalled for behaviours.

[RetiredAt63]

Given limited law enforcement resources, it is impractical to think that stricter laws should be made and/or enforced. The Law is seldom effective at taming the lesser nuisance behaviors in society. I live in the urban core and I see it regularly. People peeing in the street (and not always men, Mardi Gras brings young women hiking up their skirts in our yards) Public drunkenness, aggressive panhandling, long shouting of obscenities on the street.

@iris lily, I have been pondering this comment.  Sure these kinds of laws are not well enforced, they can't be.  Lots of traffic laws are not well enforced either, we can't have a traffic cop at every stop sign and street light.  But the laws are there to set out what our (society's) expectations are for a particular kind of behaviour.  Why can't we also have laws in other areas of our lives that set out a minimum standard of behaviour?  They won't always get enforced, but they do set the standard.  With no laws, it's a free-for-all.

[Davnasty]

Given limited law enforcement resources, it is impractical to think that stricter laws should be made and/or enforced. The Law is seldom effective at taming the lesser nuisance behaviors in society. I live in the urban core and I see it regularly. People peeing in the street (and not always men, Mardi Gras brings young women hiking up their skirts in our yards) Public drunkenness, aggressive panhandling, long shouting of obscenities on the street.

@iris lily, I have been pondering this comment.  Sure these kinds of laws are not well enforced, they can't be.  Lots of traffic laws are not well enforced either, we can't have a traffic cop at every stop sign and street light.  But the laws are there to set out what our (society's) expectations are for a particular kind of behaviour.  Why can't we also have laws in other areas of our lives that set out a minimum standard of behaviour?  They won't always get enforced, but they do set the standard.  With no laws, it's a free-for-all.

I would add to this that even if 99.9% of incidents are unaffected by the law, there may be specific circumstances where it could help to bring charges against someone who is stalking or harassing.

But to be fair, Iris Lily also mentioned "Dick pics ARE illegal in many jurisdictions". Maybe we need a more clear understanding of what the law is before we debate what it should be.

[simonsez]

I think a woman grabbing a man's bum is just as bad as a man grabbing a woman's bum.  He may not feel as potentially threatened by it as she would be, but they are equally bad and uncalled for behaviours.

In a vacuum, yes, they're equal. 

But plenty of times there are behaviors due to the very potential of how it could spiral out of control - which makes it unequal.

I've experienced some pretty aggressive and shocking behaviors from women - but ultimately I've dismissed the seriousness of it because I'm normally a lot bigger and the worst-case scenarios are just a lot different if the sexes were reversed.

[RetiredAt63]

I think a woman grabbing a man's bum is just as bad as a man grabbing a woman's bum.  He may not feel as potentially threatened by it as she would be, but they are equally bad and uncalled for behaviours.

In a vacuum, yes, they're equal. 

But plenty of times there are behaviors due to the very potential of how it could spiral out of control - which makes it unequal.

I've experienced some pretty aggressive and shocking behaviors from women - but ultimately I've dismissed the seriousness of it because I'm normally a lot bigger and the worst-case scenarios are just a lot different if the sexes were reversed.

Oh I agree the worst-case scenarios are much more likely to be bad when it is a man doing the misbehaving, but I think both (all) genders should be held to the same behavioural standards.

[RetiredAt63]

Given limited law enforcement resources, it is impractical to think that stricter laws should be made and/or enforced. The Law is seldom effective at taming the lesser nuisance behaviors in society. I live in the urban core and I see it regularly. People peeing in the street (and not always men, Mardi Gras brings young women hiking up their skirts in our yards) Public drunkenness, aggressive panhandling, long shouting of obscenities on the street.

@iris lily, I have been pondering this comment.  Sure these kinds of laws are not well enforced, they can't be.  Lots of traffic laws are not well enforced either, we can't have a traffic cop at every stop sign and street light.  But the laws are there to set out what our (society's) expectations are for a particular kind of behaviour.  Why can't we also have laws in other areas of our lives that set out a minimum standard of behaviour?  They won't always get enforced, but they do set the standard.  With no laws, it's a free-for-all.

I would add to this that even if 99.9% of incidents are unaffected by the law, there may be specific circumstances where it could help to bring charges against someone who is stalking or harassing.

But to be fair, Iris Lily also mentioned "Dick pics ARE illegal in many jurisdictions". Maybe we need a more clear understanding of what the law is before we debate what it should be.

From the discussion it looks like a lot of us have no idea what the laws are in our jurisdictions.  I sure don't.  And given the nature of cell phones and the internet, there could be overlapping jurisdictions involved as well.  Where is a lawyer when we need one?   ;-)

[PoutineLover]

Of course nobody should touch anyone without their consent, but I think we have to acknowledge that in the world we live in, men are doing a lot more of the harassing and dick pic sending, often with much more serious consequences. Women sending unwanted vulva pics is not a real thing, and it's not really useful to redirect the conversation.
Laws should address online harassment, and some places have already made progress. While it's not necessarily ever going to be a huge law enforcement priority, the laws do help tack on charges when someone is exhibiting many forms of aggressive behaviour. Just like public drunkenness or loitering laws exist, but are not used unless you are also breaking some other law or being a nuisance.
If men knew they could be charged, or even if social media platforms enforced their own rules and deleted accounts that sent harassing pictures, it would help. I've reported pictures that threaten rape, and FB's response is basically " this doesn't violate our terms and conditions, if you don't want to see content like this, just block that person". It's pathetic.

[RetiredAt63]

Of course nobody should touch anyone without their consent, but I think we have to acknowledge that in the world we live in, men are doing a lot more of the harassing and dick pic sending, often with much more serious consequences. Women sending unwanted vulva pics is not a real thing, and it's not really useful to redirect the conversation.
Laws should address online harassment, and some places have already made progress. While it's not necessarily ever going to be a huge law enforcement priority, the laws do help tack on charges when someone is exhibiting many forms of aggressive behaviour. Just like public drunkenness or loitering laws exist, but are not used unless you are also breaking some other law or being a nuisance.
If men knew they could be charged, or even if social media platforms enforced their own rules and deleted accounts that sent harassing pictures, it would help. I've reported pictures that threaten rape, and FB's response is basically " this doesn't violate our terms and conditions, if you don't want to see content like this, just block that person". It's pathetic.

Thanks, you put this better than I have managed to.

[ender]

Of course nobody should touch anyone without their consent, but I think we have to acknowledge that in the world we live in, men are doing a lot more of the harassing and dick pic sending, often with much more serious consequences. Women sending unwanted vulva pics is not a real thing, and it's not really useful to redirect the conversation.
Laws should address online harassment, and some places have already made progress. While it's not necessarily ever going to be a huge law enforcement priority, the laws do help tack on charges when someone is exhibiting many forms of aggressive behaviour. Just like public drunkenness or loitering laws exist, but are not used unless you are also breaking some other law or being a nuisance.
If men knew they could be charged, or even if social media platforms enforced their own rules and deleted accounts that sent harassing pictures, it would help. I've reported pictures that threaten rape, and FB's response is basically " this doesn't violate our terms and conditions, if you don't want to see content like this, just block that person". It's pathetic.

Something too that factors into this is people take their social circle and then generalize everyone to be similar to their social circle.

In this type of convo, it means that:

• Men who don't harass women assume most other men don't
• Women who have/haven't been harassed assume everyone else's experience is the same

It affects policies because of examples like you give.

Though tbh, I really wish police could crack down on these types of "minor" things. I don't know what is needed to have it happen more but it's irksome to me how many "petty" and "minor" things classified that way (using " intentionally) because of necessity by police.

[PoutineLover]

Though tbh, I really wish police could crack down on these types of "minor" things. I don't know what is needed to have it happen more but it's irksome to me how many "petty" and "minor" things classified that way (using " intentionally) because of necessity by police.

I wish that too. Much better use of time and resources than issuing parking tickets or drug possession charges. And potentially a huge source of revenue! But police priorities are not very aligned with my personal priorities, so I just don't expect all that much at this point.

[Hula Hoop]

PoutineLover - that's why the me too movement was so powerful.  Men like my husband, who has never harassed/assaulted anyone, were floored that so many women they knew had experienced sexual assault.  It kind of broke the bubble that a lot of these men were living in.  And it was also empowering (although sad) for women to see that they weren't the only ones and that the experience of being assaulted and harassed is so common that I can probably count on one hand the women I know who do not have some kind of sexual harassment or assault story.

[ysette9]

The #MeToo was powerful for me as well as a woman who has thankfully limited experience with sexual assault. My friends and I live a pretty sheltered life, and yet I struggle to remember anyone who didn’t post that it had happened to her also.