Author Topic: Birthright Citizenship in the US  (Read 6999 times)

Ron Scott

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Birthright Citizenship in the US
« on: January 22, 2025, 06:36:59 AM »
The birthright citizenship debate centers around the 14th Amendment, which states in part that "all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States."

Those who support birthright citizenship argue:
1. The 14th Amendment's language is clear and provides citizenship to all people born on U.S. soil
2. This interpretation has been consistently upheld by the Supreme Court
3. Birthright reflects American values of equality and opportunity
4. Changing this policy would create a permanent underclass of non-citizens and pose significant administrative challenges

Those who oppose birthright citizenship argue:
1. The phrase "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" was meant to exclude children of non-citizens, especially those in the country without authorization. (So crossing the border just to give birth to an American—“birth tourism”—should not be an automatic back door.)
2. Most other developed nations have moved away from this route to citizenship
3. The original intent of the 14th Amendment was to guarantee citizenship to former slaves and their descendants, not to all foreign nationals giving birth in the U.S.

Like everything else in our precious free press this is divisive/political and the media is selling toothpaste by getting us to express anger rather than have a real debate. Can we not do this for them?

What’s your opinion?

nessness

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2025, 07:23:35 AM »
It seems to me like your summary is conflating two issues:

1. Whether we want to have birthright citizenship
2. Whether the constitution guarantees birthright citizenship

Personally, I'm undecided on the first question - there are valid arguments on both sides. But I am 100% opposed to president's trying to override the constitution by executive order.

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2025, 07:28:04 AM »
I am not an attorney.  Take this with grain of salt.

I think it is going to come down to the legal philosophy of SCOTUS members.  There are theories that the Constitution and its Amendments should be viewed under Strict Constructionism.  Others think you should view things in their historical context or try to ascertain the framers legal 'intent'.  Even another theory says it is a 'living document' and interpretation should change with the times.  I get a little (ok a lot) irritated at the judges who are clearly (neo)Conservative first and dedicated to their professed legal philosophy second.  I get less irritated at the Liberals who do the same and that  makes me sort of a hypocrite.  But I'm aware of it and trying to better myself on that point.

I personally think it is pretty clear the intent was to make all freed slaves and their descendants full citizens.  The birth tourism is an abuse.  The Dreamers should clearly be citizens to me.  Which creates a thorny issue of where do you apply the test?  If someone's parents were here, legally or not, for a year is that child a citizen?  What about 6 months, or 3 months, or 3 weeks?  And why were they here?  Were they running drugs or picking strawberries?  I prefer to let the abuse continue rather than disallow citizenship to even one who is deserving.

Beyond legal arguments is the matter of what is Right/Wrong.  The French gave us a nice statue with an inscription that speaks to America welcoming the world's tired and weary and oppressed with open arms.  I prefer an America that remains welcoming.  I also think the new isolationism is mostly thinly veiled racism.  People were totally different about it in the Ellis Island days when most of the immigrants were white and Protestant.  Some historical resistance to Catholics, Irish, and Jews existed.  I'll raise hell if the 'test', should one be enacted, includes quotas by race/ethnicity/religion/etc.   

dcheesi

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2025, 07:30:48 AM »
Well, we know the current SCOTUS has no qualms about throwing out decades of settled legal (including prior SCOTUS) precedent. So it probably makes sense to analyze the arguments on the merits, without regard to history (beyond original intent, for those justices who believe that that matters).

[Disclaimer: IANAL, YMMV, etc.]

To me, the key question is who is considered "subject to the jurisdiction thereof"?

In the past that phrase was interpreted as a fairly narrow carve-out for foreign diplomats and the like, who fall under foreign jurisdiction and enjoy a degree of legal immunity here. But again, stare decisis need not apply for this court, so let's look at other interpretations...

One argument that anti-birthright folks may advance is that the phrase would not apply to foreign invaders. This seems reasonable on its face. But then they may try to argue that those who immigrate without legal permission are effectively "invading" the US, and thus fall under the same potential exclusion.

The key difference I see between these scenarios is that invaders are typically seeking to impose their own jurisdiction over the territories that they occupy. Undocumented immigrants generally have no such aims; indeed, it's the conditions provided by US rule of law that make living here desirable for them.

I would further argue that the situation of undocumented immigrants more closely resembles that of the originally intended targets of this clause, namely freed slaves in the US. They too lacked any prior citizenship or residency status in the US (having been previously considered as property rather than people), while currently residing within its borders.

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2025, 07:30:54 AM »
It seems to me like your summary is conflating two issues:

1. Whether we want to have birthright citizenship
2. Whether the constitution guarantees birthright citizenship

Personally, I'm undecided on the first question - there are valid arguments on both sides. But I am 100% opposed to president's trying to override the constitution by executive order.

I'm alarmed that an XO is being used.  I'm fearful it will be made retro-active and millions of my neighbors will lose their rights (and I will have a harder time getting decent tacos.)  But I don't know that I'm opposed.  What other mechanism exists to force the hand of the SCOTUS to do its job to make a final clarifying decision on what the words literally mean in a modern legal context? 

uniwelder

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2025, 07:45:40 AM »
I feel citizenship should be earned---
1) either being born to a parent that is already a US citizen,
2) automatically becoming a citizen at age 18 after living in the US your entire life, or
3) gaining citizenship through the green card pathway.  I also believe more green cards should be available and citizenship should be easier to attain.  Same with refugees and asylum seekers.

Almost all the countries that have birthright citizenship are located in North and South America.  The rest of the world does not have such a generous policy.  I don't understand why ending it is such a controversial or partisan topic. 

Working at a university, my wife (foreign born and gained US citizenship) and I have encountered a number of international students that make sure to have a baby here.  In one particular case, taking a leave of absence from school to get married and pregnant, coming back to the university for a semester to give birth, avoiding all hospital bill collection attempts (despite being from a wealthy family) and then flying back home as soon as physically possible. 

Birth tourism is real and I don't think it's unreasonable to want to stop those abusing the system, though an executive order is not the way to do so.

JGS1980

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2025, 08:03:58 AM »
Don't be suckers --> this is just more culture war bullshit.

The Center for Immigration Studies estimates (2017) that 33000 babies are born in the USA as products of "birth tourism."

In 2023, 3591328 babies were born in the US. So we are talking about 0.918% of new births. Fine, round it up to 1.0%.

Who cares? This is just another way to rile up the rubes.

-------

In addition, this has been settled law for over 150 years. It would be tragic if the current SCOTUS decides to wave their hands and change this.

Ron Scott

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2025, 08:15:41 AM »
It seems to me like your summary is conflating two issues:

1. Whether we want to have birthright citizenship
2. Whether the constitution guarantees birthright citizenship

Personally, I'm undecided on the first question - there are valid arguments on both sides. But I am 100% opposed to president's trying to override the constitution by executive order.

I'm alarmed that an XO is being used. 

I assume SCOTUS’ MO behind his XO is to move the decision to the SC.

reeshau

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2025, 08:16:09 AM »
The legal interpretation will come, and be argued.

To me, it's a very practical topic, with very practical consequences.

The US through its history has grown its population into its land mass by being welcoming to immigrants.  At some point, all immigrants (meaning, nearly all of our ancestors) were the "other," or unwanted.  So, they came here.  We ignore this history at our peril.

In current times, all industrialized nations, including China, are seeing their birth rates fall below replacement level.  This is going to eventually show up in a number of factors: unsustainable pension and health care costs, declining real estate prices, increasing labor costs and inflation, reduced cultural relevance, etc.

In the long run, whichever advanced economy opens up to immigration, when the others are against it, is going to win.  What "win" means depends on the country: economically thrive, dominate militarily, whatever.  There will be a cost to this: immigration changes culture.  It seems that what underlies most resistance to immigration is a fear of this change in culture, however it is packaged.

As a personal note:  I invest in individual stocks.  Successfully.  Part of doing that is understanding you need to bet against the crowd at times; usually, when the crowd is loudest.  The "move rightward" of so many societies, not just the US and Europe, but China, too, is quite a crowd, all yelling similar things.

GuitarStv

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2025, 08:19:03 AM »
While I think that keeping birthright citizenship is the sensible/logical thing to do . . . I also support ending it.  But I only support ending it if it is FULLY retroactive.  So every person in America who can't trace their ancestry to native people loses citizenship.

Fair is fair, right?



In addition, this has been settled law for over 150 years. It would be tragic if the current SCOTUS decides to wave their hands and change this.

This supreme court has shown itself to be completely uninterested in legal precedent and happy to radically reinterpret long settled law to meet conservative political agenda.  So tragic yes, expected . . . also yes.

JGS1980

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2025, 08:28:58 AM »
I love Google searches!

Additional Protections Mandated by the 14th Amendment:

1. It guarantees equal protection under the law for all citizens. ---> Tell that to the current felon president who has used legal [i.e. financial] means  to delay, obfuscate, and eventually avoid consequences for most of his (proven) illegal actions.

2. The 14th Amendment prohibited states from denying citizens the right to vote.  --->  The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed a couple generations ago to actually put this right into practice.... and then was severely watered down by the SCOTUS in the 2010's (citation>), allowing states to "self regulate" again.

3. It also banned public officials who participated in insurrection or rebellion from holding office.  ---> The inauguration just happened, eh?

Ron Scott

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2025, 08:30:22 AM »

In current times, all industrialized nations, including China, are seeing their birth rates fall below replacement level.  This is going to eventually show up in a number of factors: unsustainable pension and health care costs, declining real estate prices, increasing labor costs and inflation, reduced cultural relevance, etc.

In the long run, whichever advanced economy opens up to immigration, when the others are against it, is going to win.  What "win" means depends on the country: economically thrive, dominate militarily, whatever.


Some comments:

1. China has one of the most restrictive immigration policies in the world while it is also probably stuck in the middle income trap (too few HS grads). There heads are way up there on this issue.

2. So far, we’ve relied on people to increase productivity and handle the problems you describe with declining birth rates. We don’t know how AI and Robotics will change this but chances are good they will help.

3. A subset of those who are generally anti-immigration in the US favor allowing those with the most important skills and education to come on H-1Bs. It’s not an all-or-nothing objection to immigration in their eyes. They say our attractive position allows us to be selective.

Bateaux

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2025, 08:47:09 AM »
Birthright citizenship should only be when one parent is a citizen. It shouldn't matter where on the globe you are born. It should be who you are born from.

nessness

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2025, 08:56:55 AM »
It seems to me like your summary is conflating two issues:

1. Whether we want to have birthright citizenship
2. Whether the constitution guarantees birthright citizenship

Personally, I'm undecided on the first question - there are valid arguments on both sides. But I am 100% opposed to president's trying to override the constitution by executive order.

I'm alarmed that an XO is being used.  I'm fearful it will be made retro-active and millions of my neighbors will lose their rights (and I will have a harder time getting decent tacos.)  But I don't know that I'm opposed.  What other mechanism exists to force the hand of the SCOTUS to do its job to make a final clarifying decision on what the words literally mean in a modern legal context?
But why is a "final clarifying decision" needed, when the case law is already clear? If Trump wants to get rid of birthright citizenship, he can pursue a constitutional amendment (which he obviously knows wouldn't pass).

I see this more as a loyalty test for the conservative members of the SC than as a legitimately unsettled issue.

Morning Glory

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2025, 08:57:18 AM »
I do not like this at all. It's especially ominous when combined with talk of extending the death penalty to more crimes if they are committed by "non-citizens". It's a slippery slope into apartheid or worse. Leave the 14th alone.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2025, 09:04:17 AM by Morning Glory »

GuitarStv

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2025, 08:59:55 AM »
Birthright citizenship should only be when one parent is a citizen. It shouldn't matter where on the globe you are born. It should be who you are born from.

Why?

GilesMM

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2025, 09:05:49 AM »
With the proliferation of new subjects maybe we need a new section of the forum dedicated to the Orange Man.

uniwelder

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2025, 09:16:00 AM »
The Center for Immigration Studies estimates (2017) that 33000 babies are born in the USA as products of "birth tourism."

In 2023, 3591328 babies were born in the US. So we are talking about 0.918% of new births. Fine, round it up to 1.0%.

From 2018 statistics, about 6% of births in the US are from illegal immigrants. Yes, birth tourism is a smaller part, which just happened to be a detail I focused on.

edited to add--- If 7% of all US births would be affected, I think its a big enough issue to address.  That's a lot of people- 300,000 each year.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2025, 10:23:31 AM by uniwelder »

uniwelder

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2025, 09:27:34 AM »
I do not like this at all. It's especially ominous when combined with talk of extending the death penalty to more crimes if they are committed by "non-citizens". It's a slippery slope into apartheid or worse. Leave the 14th alone.

The topic at hand is about getting the US to be more in line with most other developed countries' policies.  It is does not have to be anti-immigrant, though I am afraid that is the main motivation for those pushing for it.  It should be commonsense legislation, much like universal healthcare, which nearly all developed countries participate in.

sonofsven

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2025, 09:43:36 AM »
The beauty of the current situation is its simplicity: born here=citizen.
Trump and his cronies want to introduce chaos. Out of chaos they want to pick and choose citizens.
It's all so ironic since this question is being "settled" BY IMMIGRANTS.
I love to point out the hypocrisy to my Trump loving MIL. Her response: "We won it fair and square". Laughable.

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2025, 11:25:54 AM »
Birthright citizenship should only be when one parent is a citizen. It shouldn't matter where on the globe you are born. It should be who you are born from.
I guess all of us with two citizen parents are screwed.

Morning Glory

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2025, 11:38:27 AM »
Birthright citizenship should only be when one parent is a citizen. It shouldn't matter where on the globe you are born. It should be who you are born from.
I guess all of us with two citizen parents are screwed.

This could get very silly after a few generations with some people being a citizen of 16 countries

uniwelder

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2025, 11:58:48 AM »
While I think that keeping birthright citizenship is the sensible/logical thing to do . . . I also support ending it.  But I only support ending it if it is FULLY retroactive.  So every person in America who can't trace their ancestry to native people loses citizenship.

Fair is fair, right?

Since you're Canadian, and Canada also has birthright citizenship, I'm curious how other people feel in your country.  Birth tourism is an industry in Canada as well.  One of my wife's labmate's spouse had their baby specifically in Canada for this purpose.  Has discussion about this topic come up?  If yes, is it only because of Trump?

GuitarStv

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2025, 12:03:31 PM »
While I think that keeping birthright citizenship is the sensible/logical thing to do . . . I also support ending it.  But I only support ending it if it is FULLY retroactive.  So every person in America who can't trace their ancestry to native people loses citizenship.

Fair is fair, right?

Since you're Canadian, and Canada also has birthright citizenship, I'm curious how other people feel in your country.  Birth tourism is an industry in Canada as well.  One of my wife's labmate's spouse had their baby specifically in Canada for this purpose.  Has discussion about this topic come up?  If yes, is it only because of Trump?

While I'm sure it's discussed somewhere, I don't think I've ever heard anyone mention it to be honest.  Now that Trump has brought it up though, it's likely to make it's way into our Conservative driven conversations . . . they seem to go for all the Trump stuff but just a few years later.

Morning Glory

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2025, 12:08:54 PM »
While I think that keeping birthright citizenship is the sensible/logical thing to do . . . I also support ending it.  But I only support ending it if it is FULLY retroactive.  So every person in America who can't trace their ancestry to native people loses citizenship.

Fair is fair, right?

Since you're Canadian, and Canada also has birthright citizenship, I'm curious how other people feel in your country.  Birth tourism is an industry in Canada as well.  One of my wife's labmate's spouse had their baby specifically in Canada for this purpose.  Has discussion about this topic come up?  If yes, is it only because of Trump?

While I'm sure it's discussed somewhere, I don't think I've ever heard anyone mention it to be honest.  Now that Trump has brought it up though, it's likely to make it's way into our Conservative driven conversations . . . they seem to go for all the Trump stuff but just a few years later.

TBF a lot of ours are just Brazil's from five years ago.

rocketpj

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2025, 12:09:17 PM »
While I think that keeping birthright citizenship is the sensible/logical thing to do . . . I also support ending it.  But I only support ending it if it is FULLY retroactive.  So every person in America who can't trace their ancestry to native people loses citizenship.

Fair is fair, right?

Since you're Canadian, and Canada also has birthright citizenship, I'm curious how other people feel in your country.  Birth tourism is an industry in Canada as well.  One of my wife's labmate's spouse had their baby specifically in Canada for this purpose.  Has discussion about this topic come up?  If yes, is it only because of Trump?

It's come up, but mostly just in the fever swamps of racist echo chambers.  So yes, echoing the stupidest of topics across the border.

My read on the citizenship stuff in the US is that it is quite obviously thinly veiled racist dog whistling.  They aren't getting upset about Scottish or German immigrants, they are quite specifically worried about Latin, African and Asian immigrants.

Among other things, what about people who are on the Green Card track for citizenship - what if they have kids?  Are those kids forbidden from working until they can become adults and apply for their own Green Cards?  What a needlessly complicated mess the racists are making for you all.

uniwelder

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2025, 12:25:38 PM »
While I think that keeping birthright citizenship is the sensible/logical thing to do . . . I also support ending it.  But I only support ending it if it is FULLY retroactive.  So every person in America who can't trace their ancestry to native people loses citizenship.

Fair is fair, right?

Since you're Canadian, and Canada also has birthright citizenship, I'm curious how other people feel in your country.  Birth tourism is an industry in Canada as well.  One of my wife's labmate's spouse had their baby specifically in Canada for this purpose.  Has discussion about this topic come up?  If yes, is it only because of Trump?

It's come up, but mostly just in the fever swamps of racist echo chambers.  So yes, echoing the stupidest of topics across the border.

My read on the citizenship stuff in the US is that it is quite obviously thinly veiled racist dog whistling.  They aren't getting upset about Scottish or German immigrants, they are quite specifically worried about Latin, African and Asian immigrants.

Among other things, what about people who are on the Green Card track for citizenship - what if they have kids?  Are those kids forbidden from working until they can become adults and apply for their own Green Cards?  What a needlessly complicated mess the racists are making for you all.

It would be nice to separate the racism from actual policy.  I'm completely against Trump and this possible implementation, but have always felt birthright citizenship should be changed in US law.  It's really only the Americas that have birthright citizenship.  Not Europe, not Asia, not Africa.  Are they all racist/xenophobic?

Changing this aspect of citizenship law doesn't mean people can't become citizens.  It also means we can have legal immigration.  We can look to nearly any other country for guidance as to how they handle the path to citizenship.  This is mainly a controversial topic because of the person proposing it and what the downstream affects will likely be because of this administration.

Is it possible to have an actual conversation here about the pros/cons of birthright citizenship?

Fru-Gal

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2025, 12:40:28 PM »
Cons:

Inefficient, requiring new paperwork and enforcement
Encourages sexual coercion
Discriminatory and unAmerican
Discourages immigration and thereby hurts USA economy

MrGreen

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2025, 02:04:24 PM »
In real estate, you are subject to the jurisdiction of a place if the land you are standing on is part of it. Are you standing on land in town? You're inside the jurisdiction of the town. Police operate the same way. Municipal police, county police, state police all know the exact end of their jurisdiction. It seems stupidly simple to me. Are you standing on land that is part of the US? Then you are subject to our jurisdiction. The 14th amendment therefore says those born here are citizens.

Claiming I can be somewhere while not subject to their jurisdiction creates a black hole of legal problems. I can then argue that jurisdiction no longer applies by simply being there. Those town laws don't apply to me because SCOTUS has ruled that jurisdiction has nothing to do with where I'm standing.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2025, 02:08:52 PM by MrGreen »

GuitarStv

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2025, 02:06:55 PM »
The 14th amendment therefore says those born here are citizens.

Conservative re-interpretation of the 2nd Amendment has shown that it doesn't matter what the constitution says.  If they don't like it, they just keep re-interpreting until it works for them.

Villanelle

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2025, 03:12:46 PM »
The constitution seems quite clear to me and trying to override it with an XO is scary and I hope it fails.

That said, I wouldn't be entirely opposed to a new amendment that changed this policy, although I recognize that those most enthusiastic about that change would be coming from a place of racism and xenophobia. 

I'm also not sure that having fewer Americans would be a good thing, given our population numbers. We'd need to drastically increase the numbers (and speed the process) of people we allow to become citizens if we closed off this tap, if we changed birthright citizenship.   

Zamboni

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2025, 03:39:01 PM »
Whether you love her, hate her, or don't care either way, it seems that Hilary Clinton was right on target when she predicted what he would do during their debates back in the day. What a short memory we have!

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2025, 03:43:50 PM »
The Constitutional right to birthright citizenship is very much settled law. I hate that this doesn't seem to matter anymore.

My personal opinion on the issue has long been that traveling to a place of one's choosing, seeking employment in that place, and staying there as long as your resources permit should be generally recognized as basic rights. I tend to support policies that move us in that general direction and I tend to oppose policies that make migration more difficult.

Now, that doesn't necessarily mean I think "birthright citizenship" is the ideal policy. If someone spent the first year of their life here but then spent the next 30 years elsewhere, I don't see a strong justification for treating them much differently than their younger sibling who spent the full first 31 years of their life in another country. Ideally both people would have a straightforward path to immigrate if they want, and would have the opportunity to gain citizenship after several years of residing in the country.

I do think that a child should generally be allowed to live wherever their parents are living, and that if someone spends most/all of their childhood in a place they should generally be allowed to remain there indefinitely. The executive order doesn't necessarily seem to respect those principles. Right now the child of two H1-B holders becomes a US citizen at birth and is allowed to remain in the US with their parents on that basis. In a month...who knows? Will the parents need to apply for a special visa for their newborn? Can that visa application be denied even if the parents are otherwise here in good standing? What's the fee involved? If the child remains in the US until adulthood while their parents are legal workers but the parents never become citizens, can the kid stick around after they graduate, or will they need to "go back" to a country where they've never lived? A lot that's unclear about it, and this lack of clarity is sure to discourage even legal immigration.

jrhampt

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2025, 05:51:51 AM »
I mean, if you're agonizing all the time about the "crisis" of falling birth rates, you should in theory be all for birthright citizenship since we get more babies in our population.  I'd rather get more babies that way with willing participants than by forcing women to have babies by eliminating their/our choices.  I suppose I can see some arguments for either side, but I tend to view immigration as a net win, I'm not big on completely ignoring precedent, and as someone upthread pointed out, abuses of this through birth tourism are a pretty small percentage of overall births so idk if it's worth the cost and effort to try to get rid of this.

uniwelder

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2025, 08:02:44 AM »
Cons:

Inefficient, requiring new paperwork and enforcement
Encourages sexual coercion
Discriminatory and unAmerican
Discourages immigration and thereby hurts USA economy

It's not particularly complicated, and might be the same amount of paperwork as my tax return.  This isn't setting new precedent, as it's the norm in most of the world.

I think there's already a market (mail order brides, 90 day fiancé, etc) for sexual coercion to gain entry into the US.  However, that benefits the person doing the coercion.  I'm getting stuck thinking through how one's possible future offspring not automatically being a US citizen will encourage sexual coercion.  Do you have an example to illustrate what you mean?

Discriminatory and anti-American?  I imagine you think that because it's been law for 150 years in this country.  There are plenty of other old laws I'm sure you're glad were repealed.  If we never had birthright citizenship, I think the general mindset of Americans would be more congratulatory towards those that earn citizenship.  Suppose it followed my proposal below.  When a child turns 18, they'd be legal adults as well as citizens of the US.  How patriotic!  They've shown their devotion to the USA by sticking around until adulthood and likely will continue their lives here.  What I see as anti-American is to reject refugees, asylum seekers, and hard working immigrants from this country.  We should accept these people and let them become citizens in a reasonable amount of time.

I don't think birthright citizenship is a main issue for people's decision whether to immigrate here.  For birth tourism, that's not a factor at all, and most people would agree they shouldn't be US citizens.  In the case of illegal immigrants having kids as quickly as possible to secure themselves in the US, there are more effective ways to deal with the root problem, and I think its more prudent to focus on that.  This country should allow for easier immigration, such as more visas and green cards, more timely processing, etc.  Ideally, children born of foreign parents would receive something like a US green card upon birth.

I'm going to quote myself here.  A rational US congress could pass the following (ways to become a US citizen) if they wanted to eliminate birthright citizenship with immigration reform.  I'm sure it would get bipartisan support.
1) either being born to a parent that is already a US citizen,
2) automatically becoming a citizen at age 18 after living in the US your entire life, or
3) gaining citizenship through the green card pathway.  I also believe more green cards should be available and citizenship should be easier to attain.  Same with refugees and asylum seekers.

uniwelder

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2025, 08:05:42 AM »
I mean, if you're agonizing all the time about the "crisis" of falling birth rates, you should in theory be all for birthright citizenship since we get more babies in our population.  I'd rather get more babies that way with willing participants than by forcing women to have babies by eliminating their/our choices.  I suppose I can see some arguments for either side, but I tend to view immigration as a net win, I'm not big on completely ignoring precedent, and as someone upthread pointed out, abuses of this through birth tourism are a pretty small percentage of overall births so idk if it's worth the cost and effort to try to get rid of this.

I would love to keep the birth rate discussion in another thread where it belongs.  Eliminating birthright citizenship doesn't have to mean immigration would decrease. There's some sort of conflation problem going on with your statements.

Villanelle

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2025, 08:38:43 AM »
Cons:

Inefficient, requiring new paperwork and enforcement
Encourages sexual coercion
Discriminatory and unAmerican
Discourages immigration and thereby hurts USA economy

It's not particularly complicated, and might be the same amount of paperwork as my tax return.  This isn't setting new precedent, as it's the norm in most of the world.

I think there's already a market (mail order brides, 90 day fiancé, etc) for sexual coercion to gain entry into the US.  However, that benefits the person doing the coercion.  I'm getting stuck thinking through how one's possible future offspring not automatically being a US citizen will encourage sexual coercion.  Do you have an example to illustrate what you mean?

Discriminatory and anti-American?  I imagine you think that because it's been law for 150 years in this country.  There are plenty of other old laws I'm sure you're glad were repealed.  If we never had birthright citizenship, I think the general mindset of Americans would be more congratulatory towards those that earn citizenship.  Suppose it followed my proposal below.  When a child turns 18, they'd be legal adults as well as citizens of the US.  How patriotic!  They've shown their devotion to the USA by sticking around until adulthood and likely will continue their lives here.  What I see as anti-American is to reject refugees, asylum seekers, and hard working immigrants from this country.  We should accept these people and let them become citizens in a reasonable amount of time.

I don't think birthright citizenship is a main issue for people's decision whether to immigrate here.  For birth tourism, that's not a factor at all, and most people would agree they shouldn't be US citizens.  In the case of illegal immigrants having kids as quickly as possible to secure themselves in the US, there are more effective ways to deal with the root problem, and I think its more prudent to focus on that.  This country should allow for easier immigration, such as more visas and green cards, more timely processing, etc.  Ideally, children born of foreign parents would receive something like a US green card upon birth.

I'm going to quote myself here.  A rational US congress could pass the following (ways to become a US citizen) if they wanted to eliminate birthright citizenship with immigration reform.  I'm sure it would get bipartisan support.
1) either being born to a parent that is already a US citizen,
2) automatically becoming a citizen at age 18 after living in the US your entire life, or
3) gaining citizenship through the green card pathway.  I also believe more green cards should be available and citizenship should be easier to attain.  Same with refugees and asylum seekers.

Except Congress can't make an unconstitutional policy, which this currently would be.  We need an amendment to change an amendment and given how divided is our nation, that chances of that happening anytime soon are pretty much nil. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2025, 08:56:38 AM »
Congress can't make an unconstitutional policy, which this currently would be.  We need an amendment to change an amendment and given how divided is our nation, that chances of that happening anytime soon are pretty much nil.

Not true at all.

It only requires a reinterpretation of the constitution by the Supreme Court.  Remember before the '90s when everyone who was remotely reasonable read the 2nd amendment and saw that it clearly stated that owning a firearm was inextricably linked to the need to be able to form a militia?  Changing the interpretation of that rule to ignore all that inconvenient stuff about militias completely changed the meaning of the amendment to it's current form of 'GUNS FOR ALL, ALL THE TIME'.  No need for an amendment - so it's certainly not a matter of changing the constitution.  We know that Trump's Supreme Court will bow to whatever he wants to pass . . . so the question is only 'How will they completely change the interpretation of the 14th Amendment to get what they want?'.

My guess - The 14th amendment has always had a war exception for the children of invaders born on US soil.  In Texas, Greg Abbott has put forward the argument that his state is under invasion by illegal immigrants, and therefore at war with them.  That would allow denial of citizenship to all children of illegal immigrants and seems like a slam dunk and easy to push reinterpretation given the current makeup of the SC.

No need to change an amendment when you can just do a complete end run around it.  Very neat.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2025, 09:02:15 AM by GuitarStv »

uniwelder

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2025, 08:59:33 AM »
Cons:

Inefficient, requiring new paperwork and enforcement
Encourages sexual coercion
Discriminatory and unAmerican
Discourages immigration and thereby hurts USA economy

It's not particularly complicated, and might be the same amount of paperwork as my tax return.  This isn't setting new precedent, as it's the norm in most of the world.

I think there's already a market (mail order brides, 90 day fiancé, etc) for sexual coercion to gain entry into the US.  However, that benefits the person doing the coercion.  I'm getting stuck thinking through how one's possible future offspring not automatically being a US citizen will encourage sexual coercion.  Do you have an example to illustrate what you mean?

Discriminatory and anti-American?  I imagine you think that because it's been law for 150 years in this country.  There are plenty of other old laws I'm sure you're glad were repealed.  If we never had birthright citizenship, I think the general mindset of Americans would be more congratulatory towards those that earn citizenship.  Suppose it followed my proposal below.  When a child turns 18, they'd be legal adults as well as citizens of the US.  How patriotic!  They've shown their devotion to the USA by sticking around until adulthood and likely will continue their lives here.  What I see as anti-American is to reject refugees, asylum seekers, and hard working immigrants from this country.  We should accept these people and let them become citizens in a reasonable amount of time.

I don't think birthright citizenship is a main issue for people's decision whether to immigrate here.  For birth tourism, that's not a factor at all, and most people would agree they shouldn't be US citizens.  In the case of illegal immigrants having kids as quickly as possible to secure themselves in the US, there are more effective ways to deal with the root problem, and I think its more prudent to focus on that.  This country should allow for easier immigration, such as more visas and green cards, more timely processing, etc.  Ideally, children born of foreign parents would receive something like a US green card upon birth.

I'm going to quote myself here.  A rational US congress could pass the following (ways to become a US citizen) if they wanted to eliminate birthright citizenship with immigration reform.  I'm sure it would get bipartisan support.
1) either being born to a parent that is already a US citizen,
2) automatically becoming a citizen at age 18 after living in the US your entire life, or
3) gaining citizenship through the green card pathway.  I also believe more green cards should be available and citizenship should be easier to attain.  Same with refugees and asylum seekers.

Except Congress can't make an unconstitutional policy, which this currently would be.  We need an amendment to change an amendment and given how divided is our nation, that chances of that happening anytime soon are pretty much nil.

Certainly.  I thought it was clear all this was just fantasy, except for Trump.  I was just trying to discuss the theoretical of birthright citizenship without the reality of the current situation.  I think this was the original intent of the thread.

BC_Goldman

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2025, 09:56:07 AM »
Birth Tourism happens in other places besides the US and is also done by US citizens.

The host of one of the podcasts I listen to is a proponent of it and at least one of his kids was born elsewhere for this purpose. The idea is that having another country of citizenship gives you more options.

Personally, I would have liked my kid to have had the chance to have a second citizenship.

uniwelder

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2025, 10:09:09 AM »
Birth Tourism happens in other places besides the US and is also done by US citizens.

The host of one of the podcasts I listen to is a proponent of it and at least one of his kids was born elsewhere for this purpose. The idea is that having another country of citizenship gives you more options.

Personally, I would have liked my kid to have had the chance to have a second citizenship.

Does the general population of those particular countries welcome it?  There's an amount of elitism involved to have a lifestyle such that someone can afford international travel and vacation for a a few months.

Villanelle

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2025, 10:33:32 AM »
Congress can't make an unconstitutional policy, which this currently would be.  We need an amendment to change an amendment and given how divided is our nation, that chances of that happening anytime soon are pretty much nil.

Not true at all.

It only requires a reinterpretation of the constitution by the Supreme Court.  Remember before the '90s when everyone who was remotely reasonable read the 2nd amendment and saw that it clearly stated that owning a firearm was inextricably linked to the need to be able to form a militia?  Changing the interpretation of that rule to ignore all that inconvenient stuff about militias completely changed the meaning of the amendment to it's current form of 'GUNS FOR ALL, ALL THE TIME'.  No need for an amendment - so it's certainly not a matter of changing the constitution.  We know that Trump's Supreme Court will bow to whatever he wants to pass . . . so the question is only 'How will they completely change the interpretation of the 14th Amendment to get what they want?'.

My guess - The 14th amendment has always had a war exception for the children of invaders born on US soil.  In Texas, Greg Abbott has put forward the argument that his state is under invasion by illegal immigrants, and therefore at war with them.  That would allow denial of citizenship to all children of illegal immigrants and seems like a slam dunk and easy to push reinterpretation given the current makeup of the SC.

No need to change an amendment when you can just do a complete end run around it.  Very neat.

It's certainly true that Congress can't make an unconstitutional amendment.  Sure, SCOTUS could get wonky with deciding what is unconstitutional even in the face of pretty clear wording and established precedent--it wouldn't be the first time--but I'm talking about how things should work when our democracy is functioning properly. 

BC_Goldman

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2025, 10:40:41 AM »
Birth Tourism happens in other places besides the US and is also done by US citizens.

The host of one of the podcasts I listen to is a proponent of it and at least one of his kids was born elsewhere for this purpose. The idea is that having another country of citizenship gives you more options.

Personally, I would have liked my kid to have had the chance to have a second citizenship.

Does the general population of those particular countries welcome it?  There's an amount of elitism involved to have a lifestyle such that someone can afford international travel and vacation for a a few months.

I dont know how the general population feels about it in the various countries that allow it. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

My point is that the US isn't/wasn't the only country that allows citizenship by birth. Most of the western hemisphere does so and a few countries in the eastern hemisphere. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli

Yes, having enough wealth to go to another country long enough to have a birth then just fly home isn't common I would guess as just remaining there. So I would hazard a guess that most citizenship by birth means the families/mother are still in the country (as immigrants legal or otherwise) where the child was born.

GuitarStv

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2025, 10:47:22 AM »
Congress can't make an unconstitutional policy, which this currently would be.  We need an amendment to change an amendment and given how divided is our nation, that chances of that happening anytime soon are pretty much nil.

Not true at all.

It only requires a reinterpretation of the constitution by the Supreme Court.  Remember before the '90s when everyone who was remotely reasonable read the 2nd amendment and saw that it clearly stated that owning a firearm was inextricably linked to the need to be able to form a militia?  Changing the interpretation of that rule to ignore all that inconvenient stuff about militias completely changed the meaning of the amendment to it's current form of 'GUNS FOR ALL, ALL THE TIME'.  No need for an amendment - so it's certainly not a matter of changing the constitution.  We know that Trump's Supreme Court will bow to whatever he wants to pass . . . so the question is only 'How will they completely change the interpretation of the 14th Amendment to get what they want?'.

My guess - The 14th amendment has always had a war exception for the children of invaders born on US soil.  In Texas, Greg Abbott has put forward the argument that his state is under invasion by illegal immigrants, and therefore at war with them.  That would allow denial of citizenship to all children of illegal immigrants and seems like a slam dunk and easy to push reinterpretation given the current makeup of the SC.

No need to change an amendment when you can just do a complete end run around it.  Very neat.

It's certainly true that Congress can't make an unconstitutional amendment.  Sure, SCOTUS could get wonky with deciding what is unconstitutional even in the face of pretty clear wording and established precedent--it wouldn't be the first time--but I'm talking about how things should work when our democracy is functioning properly.

I don't buy it at all.  People like to think of the constitution as being set in stone and decreeing The Way That Things Shall Be . . . but interpretation of it changes all the time, and all the folks in charge of that interpretation have indicated that they're incredibly partisan right now.  It's not safe to assume that US democracy is functioning properly any more.

Ron Scott

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2025, 10:58:21 AM »
Technical point of confusion—

There is a legal argument that a clause in a law needs to have meaning and that if your interpretation of the law is identical with or without the clause, you're not interpreting it correctly. I think it’s called "the doctrine of superfluity" or the "doctrine of surplusage."

In other words:

1. Every clause within a law is presumed to have a specific purpose and effect.
2. Legislators typically do not include unnecessary or redundant language.
3. Courts strive to interpret laws in a way that gives meaning and effect to every clause. If a particular clause appears to have no impact on the overall outcome under a specific interpretation, that interpretation may be considered flawed.

The 14th Amendment states in part that "all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States."

What is the meaning of the clause in bold above, and why is it additive (“and subject to…) the subject clause “all persons born or naturalized in the US”?

Telecaster

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2025, 10:58:46 AM »
From 2018 statistics, about 6% of births in the US are from illegal immigrants. Yes, birth tourism is a smaller part, which just happened to be a detail I focused on.

edited to add--- If 7% of all US births would be affected, I think its a big enough issue to address.  That's a lot of people- 300,000 each year.

In my view, the real question should be "is this a problem?"   For all the rhetoric I haven't heard much evidence this causes any real issues.

Since no one is talking about the problems (if any) it is safe to conclude they just don't people with brown skin.   

Telecaster

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2025, 11:00:07 AM »
What is the meaning of the clause in bold above, and why is it additive (“and subject to…) the subject clause “all persons born or naturalized in the US”?

The purpose is to exclude children born to foreign diplomats who have diplomatic immunity and therefore are not subject to the laws  of the United States.   

Ron Scott

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2025, 11:43:26 AM »
What is the meaning of the clause in bold above, and why is it additive (“and subject to…) the subject clause “all persons born or naturalized in the US”?

The purpose is to exclude children born to foreign diplomats who have diplomatic immunity and therefore are not subject to the laws  of the United States.

Yes, I think you’re right…and others have included enemy combatants and, at the time of its passage, American Indians.

If a court WERE looking to use this clause however to exclude of the products of birth tourism, it might conclude that the child’s allegiance is not necessarily to the US, using similar logic it originally did for the Indians, who had stronger tribal ties. In those days—from what I can tell—Indians COULD be convicted and sentenced for crime that involved a non-Indian victim or took place outside tribal territory. So there does seem to be a relationship here that could be used by a court looking to do so.

While your answer is correct, it may not be sufficient.

GuitarStv

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2025, 11:50:35 AM »
What is the meaning of the clause in bold above, and why is it additive (“and subject to…) the subject clause “all persons born or naturalized in the US”?

The purpose is to exclude children born to foreign diplomats who have diplomatic immunity and therefore are not subject to the laws  of the United States.

Yes, I think you’re right…and others have included enemy combatants and, at the time of its passage, American Indians.

If a court WERE looking to use this clause however to exclude of the products of birth tourism, it might conclude that the child’s allegiance is not necessarily to the US, using similar logic it originally did for the Indians, who had stronger tribal ties. In those days—from what I can tell—Indians COULD be convicted and sentenced for crime that involved a non-Indian victim or took place outside tribal territory. So there does seem to be a relationship here that could be used by a court looking to do so.

While your answer is correct, it may not be sufficient.

Not according to legal precedent:

Quote
In a majority opinion delivered by Justice Gray, the Court first noted that there is no statutory definition of a citizen, except the inclusionary clause in the Fourteenth Amendment stating that “all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof” are citizens. The Court therefore relied on common law to interpret this and other clauses concerning citizenship. The main principle that the Court chose to draw was from Calvin’s Case , a 17th century English common law case that held a person born within the territory of a King owes him allegiance, and is therefore the King’s subject. The Court then referenced a series of commentaries and cases in both English and U.S. common law that showed subsequent decisions since Calvin’s Case have been consistent with this principle. Persons born within the United States have always been in general assumed to be British subjects, and later U.S. citizens. In particular, this treatment was applied equally to those born to non-citizen parents, except in cases where a child was born in territory occupied by a foreign invasion or where the parents are foreign diplomats or officials.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/united_states_v._wong_kim_ark

But this current SC doesn't give a flying fuck about legal precedent, so it's all kinda up in the air.

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Re: Birthright Citizenship in the US
« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2025, 11:50:49 AM »
What is the meaning of the clause in bold above, and why is it additive (“and subject to…) the subject clause “all persons born or naturalized in the US”?

The purpose is to exclude children born to foreign diplomats who have diplomatic immunity and therefore are not subject to the laws  of the United States.   

Diplomats, yes, and also any other group of people who would not reasonably expect the US government to apply penalties for lawbreaking. The authority to enact justice is literally the meaning of the word "jurisdiction."

In addition to families of diplomats, people not under US jurisdiction includes invading armies (though it would certainly be unusual for soldiers to bring their pregnant wives along to have a baby during the invasion). It also historically included members of native tribes, as tribes have their own courts with jurisdiction over their members. Congress passed a law a century ago to give indigenous people birthright citizenship anyway, but they went 50 years after the passage of the 14th Amendment without that right. I suppose one could easily argue kids born on reservations are still not covered by the 14th Amendment at all and Congress could repeal that law any time.