Baltimore

[justajane]

Some of the "arguments" on here -- Innocent Until Proven Guilty; once a thug always a thug, and because of this a death was justifiable regardless of whether the thing for which he was detained was legal or not; and IMO the absolute worst - White people made America great -- have been so frustrating for me to read that I really just couldn't respond without breaking the forum rules. 

Like with the prior Ferguson thread, I really started to despair, but then Toque, miss madge, Kris and several others have come on here and restored my confidence. Thanks so much.

[velocistar237]

I'm glad these protests are bringing light to Baltimore and other cities' plight, but I'm frustrated when people mostly talk about the protests themselves. If an activist gets on the news, an activist who has tirelessly worked for years to alleviate poverty, racism, mistreatment, etc., all anyone wants to talk about is the riots: Do you condone the violence? Will you please publicly condemn it? You think these people aren't doing what MLK would want, right? How are you going to help get control of the situation?

Who cares! The Baltimore riots are a symptom, not the disease, and it really doesn't matter how just or pure the rioting is. It's the only way any of this stuff gets in the news! The powers that be don't want voters to think about how to actually fix this stuff, because that takes effort and costs money. So they misdirect to question the purity of the cause, and compare it to the mythical purity of the civil rights movement, in order to undercut the protests' legitimacy.

Instead, fund the schools; improve housing opportunities; train police officers and make them use cameras and be part of the community and establish laws that hold them responsible for their actions; give people temporary infrastructure improvement jobs; establish job programs; decriminalize drugs a la Portugal; build up the community; give financial education; and outlaw civil forfeiture, government conflicts of interest, the municipal fine madness, and usury.

Only then will we not have riots!

[Kris]

I'm glad these protests are bringing light to Baltimore and other cities' plight, but I'm frustrated when people mostly talk about the protests themselves. If an activist gets on the news, an activist who has tirelessly worked for years to alleviate poverty, racism, mistreatment, etc., all anyone wants to talk about is the riots: Do you condone the violence? Will you please publicly condemn it? You think these people aren't doing what MLK would want, right? How are you going to help get control of the situation?

Who cares! The Baltimore riots are a symptom, not the disease, and it really doesn't matter how just or pure the rioting is. It's the only way any of this stuff gets in the news! The powers that be don't want voters to think about how to actually fix this stuff, because that takes effort and costs money. So they misdirect to question the purity of the cause, and compare it to the mythical purity of the civil rights movement, in order to undercut the protests' legitimacy.

Exactly.  It's a manipulation (sometimes willful) by the media and by the power structures to get people to blame the problem on those being victimized, and turn people's attention away from actually looking at the structural racism and the toll it takes on our society, our economy, and our well-being.  A small number of people riot, perhaps 1% of all the people out there while the other 99% are protesting peacefully, and that gives the powers that be (and complacent people who don't want to think in a complex way about the problem) to focus all the attention on that, and none of the attention on the peaceful protesting, or the legitimacy of their cause. 

(And of course, let's not forget a point that was made above: it is documented that police will sometimes bring people in from outside to start stirring sh*t up in order to provoke a riot, the better to try to steer public opinion.  It's not entirely impossible that this happened here.)

It also floors me how often I will hear someone say that "the laws are there for a reason, and if you don't like them, don't break the law, law enforcement should be respected, etc." and generally take a pro-authoritarian line… until the law (e.g. the state attorney) decides there is probable cause to arrest policemen who have broken the law, and then the discourse suddenly shifts to, "Oh, it's all politics, the legal system is broken, it's not right that they were arrested, this is b.s." 

[Killerbrandt]

I do not know if this was mentioned, but I think the USA needs to get away from labeling people. Instead of Hispanic, Black, Asian, ect... why are we not all just American? I can understand visitors and trying to see where they are from, but real citizens are just Americans. That will then help us focus on the real issues of poverty and education. If you notice, education seems to be the driving factor in how people are acting. I understand that throwing money at the school system wont work and it is going to need to be a community issue. People need to start focusing on the value of education and hard work in impoverished areas. If you talk to some of these people, they value toys (showing off) or trying to look cool to their peers instead of doing the right things to get out of poverty. I have seen my friends in these areas get made fun of because they were wearing a McDonalds employee shirt or shoveling tar in the streets. This is what I believe to be the real issues, Not race, not politics, not the 1 percent, and not (most) of the education system.   

Just my opinion.

[boy_bye]

I do not know if this was mentioned, but I think the USA needs to get away from labeling people. Instead of Hispanic, Black, Asian, ect... why are we not all just American? I can understand visitors and trying to see where they are from, but real citizens are just Americans. That will then help us focus on the real issues of poverty and education. If you notice, education seems to be the driving factor in how people are acting. I understand that throwing money at the school system wont work and it is going to need to be a community issue. People need to start focusing on the value of education and hard work in impoverished areas. If you talk to some of these people, they value toys (showing off) or trying to look cool to their peers instead of doing the right things to get out of poverty. I have seen my friends in these areas get made fun of because they were wearing a McDonalds employee shirt or shoveling tar in the streets. This is what I believe to be the real issues, Not race, not politics, not the 1 percent, and not (most) of the education system.   

Just my opinion.

I don't disagree with you that education is a fantastic and perhaps the only way to combat these social ills ... but the whole "why can't we stop talking about race?" question is a question that generally comes from a privileged position as a member of the default race, the one that has the power.

Black folks really can't and shouldn't stop talking about race because all of those societal ills we've been talking about fall onto them at a disproportionately high rate. Blacks are stopped, harrassed, incarcerated, injured, and killed by police at a much much higher rate than whites are. Their communities have much less money than average white communities have. Black children have less access to high quality educational resources than white children do.

So, sure, it's easy for white folks to espouse the "color blind" point of view because it costs them nothing to do so. However, the lived experiences of black people in America are actually far worse, on average, than the lived experiences of whites in America. Which means that it's premature to be declaring an end to racial discussions.

Our society still has a ways to go in working out its racial karma.

PS: There are loads and loads of white people who are focused on showing off toys and who don't value hard work, either. Being duped by our hyper-consumerist culture into thinking that stuff = happiness is not something that only happens in black communities. It's just that the folks in the black communities, on average, have fewer resources to smooth over the problems caused by the hyper-consumerist focus.

[Killerbrandt]

I do not know if this was mentioned, but I think the USA needs to get away from labeling people. Instead of Hispanic, Black, Asian, ect... why are we not all just American? I can understand visitors and trying to see where they are from, but real citizens are just Americans. That will then help us focus on the real issues of poverty and education. If you notice, education seems to be the driving factor in how people are acting. I understand that throwing money at the school system wont work and it is going to need to be a community issue. People need to start focusing on the value of education and hard work in impoverished areas. If you talk to some of these people, they value toys (showing off) or trying to look cool to their peers instead of doing the right things to get out of poverty. I have seen my friends in these areas get made fun of because they were wearing a McDonalds employee shirt or shoveling tar in the streets. This is what I believe to be the real issues, Not race, not politics, not the 1 percent, and not (most) of the education system.   

Just my opinion.

I don't disagree with you that education is a fantastic and perhaps the only way to combat these social ills ... but the whole "why can't we stop talking about race?" question is a question that generally comes from a privileged position as a member of the default race, the one that has the power.

Black folks really can't and shouldn't stop talking about race because all of those societal ills we've been talking about fall onto them at a disproportionately high rate. Blacks are stopped, harrassed, incarcerated, injured, and killed by police at a much much higher rate than whites are. Their communities have much less money than average white communities have. Black children have less access to high quality educational resources than white children do.

So, sure, it's easy for white folks to espouse the "color blind" point of view because it costs them nothing to do so. However, the lived experiences of black people in America are actually far worse, on average, than the lived experiences of whites in America. Which means that it's premature to be declaring an end to racial discussions.

Our society still has a ways to go in working out its racial karma.

PS: There are loads and loads of white people who are focused on showing off toys and who don't value hard work, either. Being duped by our hyper-consumerist culture into thinking that stuff = happiness is not something that only happens in black communities. It's just that the folks in the black communities, on average, have fewer resources to smooth over the problems caused by the hyper-consumerist focus.

I am sorry, but you are the prime example of race hating. You think just because the color of my skin I get special privileges? What decade do you live in? I grew up a military brat in some of the worst conditions and areas. Also, in every class room there were all races! All races went to the same schools, restaurants, gyms, stores, and any other place they wanted just like me. Why is that almost all of my classmates made it out of poverty? ALL of the black kids in my class went off to be police, officers in the military, and many other high ranking jobs! I KNOW! maybe its because the families taught their kids not to use skin color as a crouch and valued their education. Also taught them to follow the law! Maybe, just maybe then we all could live in peace? but while there are people like you still thinking that race and skin give special treatment to us, then I see no hope in any of us.

Also one more thing, I am not ignorant that racism is around in this country and that it hurts a ton of people. It will also never fully go away in some places. However, it is also not stopping the vast majority from succeeding now a days or gaining an education. All my friends and peers growing up had the exact same opportunities in the broad sense (of course money gets you other things, but not all whites are rich!).

[justajane]

You think just because the color of my skin I get special privileges?

Yes, you do.

I don't normally like HuffPo, but I thought this was a compelling post - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gina-crosleycorcoran/explaining-white-privilege-to-a-broke-white-person_b_5269255.html

[Gin1984]

I do not know if this was mentioned, but I think the USA needs to get away from labeling people. Instead of Hispanic, Black, Asian, ect... why are we not all just American? I can understand visitors and trying to see where they are from, but real citizens are just Americans. That will then help us focus on the real issues of poverty and education. If you notice, education seems to be the driving factor in how people are acting. I understand that throwing money at the school system wont work and it is going to need to be a community issue. People need to start focusing on the value of education and hard work in impoverished areas. If you talk to some of these people, they value toys (showing off) or trying to look cool to their peers instead of doing the right things to get out of poverty. I have seen my friends in these areas get made fun of because they were wearing a McDonalds employee shirt or shoveling tar in the streets. This is what I believe to be the real issues, Not race, not politics, not the 1 percent, and not (most) of the education system.   

Just my opinion.

I don't disagree with you that education is a fantastic and perhaps the only way to combat these social ills ... but the whole "why can't we stop talking about race?" question is a question that generally comes from a privileged position as a member of the default race, the one that has the power.

Black folks really can't and shouldn't stop talking about race because all of those societal ills we've been talking about fall onto them at a disproportionately high rate. Blacks are stopped, harrassed, incarcerated, injured, and killed by police at a much much higher rate than whites are. Their communities have much less money than average white communities have. Black children have less access to high quality educational resources than white children do.

So, sure, it's easy for white folks to espouse the "color blind" point of view because it costs them nothing to do so. However, the lived experiences of black people in America are actually far worse, on average, than the lived experiences of whites in America. Which means that it's premature to be declaring an end to racial discussions.

Our society still has a ways to go in working out its racial karma.

PS: There are loads and loads of white people who are focused on showing off toys and who don't value hard work, either. Being duped by our hyper-consumerist culture into thinking that stuff = happiness is not something that only happens in black communities. It's just that the folks in the black communities, on average, have fewer resources to smooth over the problems caused by the hyper-consumerist focus.

I am sorry, but you are the prime example of race hating. You think just because the color of my skin I get special privileges? What decade do you live in? I grew up a military brat in some of the worst conditions and areas. Also, in every class room there were all races! All races went to the same schools, restaurants, gyms, stores, and any other place they wanted just like me. Why is that almost all of my classmates made it out of poverty? ALL of the black kids in my class went off to be police, officers in the military, and many other high ranking jobs! I KNOW! maybe its because the families taught their kids not to use skin color as a crouch and valued their education. Also taught them to follow the law! Maybe, just maybe then we all could live in peace? but while there are people like you still thinking that race and skin give special treatment to us, then I see no hope in any of us.

Also one more thing, I am not ignorant that racism is around in this country and that it hurts a ton of people. It will also never fully go away in some places. However, it is also not stopping the vast majority from succeeding now a days or gaining an education. All my friends and peers growing up had the exact same opportunities in the broad sense (of course money gets you other things, but not all whites are rich!).

My husband is hispanic.  He was treated very differently in places where people could tell that he was hispanic vs now in WNY where most guess that he is white.  In the year and half we dated in California, he was pulled over five times while I was in the car.  All of them were thrown out in court, except for the two where he got no ticket.  One of those in which he did not get a ticket included me being asked to get out of the car and then asked if he was "forcing me to be there".  However, he still had to pay the court filing fee for each of the cases that were thrown out, costing him both and money.  Want to guess how many times he has been pulled over in the six years we have been in WNY?  Not a single one.  And most people here think he is white.  The only different was driving 3000 miles to new area.  Not that WNY does not have racism problems, it does but being seen as white seriously has its advantages. 
You can't just saw obey the law because you still get profiled.  He got a very nice job offer in Arizona, and declined because he'd like to continue being treated as white.  The lack of stress, and waste of time and money matters.

[MDM]

Some of the "arguments" on here -- Innocent Until Proven Guilty

What is it about "innocent until proven guilty" that you dislike?

[justajane]

Some of the "arguments" on here -- Innocent Until Proven Guilty

What is it about "innocent until proven guilty" that you dislike?

That it is used more often than not only in reference to the actions of police officers. We should withhold judgement and give them the benefit of the doubt, but the dead black man? He most certainly was up to no good and probably deserved it or at the very least caused his own death by doing something shady. We don't know what he did yet, but we're sure it was something.

Plus a forum is not a court of law. But these days you can't have a conversation w/o someone butting in and shaking their virtual finger and declaring, "Uh, uh, uh - innocent until proven guilty......" Plus officers are so rarely charged that we never get to that point. And just because they are not charged doesn't mean they are innocent. Conversely, just because someone is found not guilty doesn't mean they are 100% innocent.

Basically, the term is not fairly applied and is often used to shut down discussion.

[Kris]

 Also, in every class room there were all races! All races went to the same schools, restaurants, gyms, stores, and any other place they wanted just like me.

Unlike in the United States. 

[boy_bye]

Also one more thing, I am not ignorant that racism is around in this country

LOLOLOLOLOL!!

[Killerbrandt]

 Also, in every class room there were all races! All races went to the same schools, restaurants, gyms, stores, and any other place they wanted just like me.

Unlike in the United States.

HAHAHA! Seriously! People are making it sound like the USA doesn't have any of this! Sounds like I grew up in some magical country and that we are still in the 1950s here! To be honest, I blame the mass media for making it look way worse than it really is. I understand there are issues and we have progressed very far, but the media is driving these issues most the time.

[Midwest]

Some of the "arguments" on here -- Innocent Until Proven Guilty

What is it about "innocent until proven guilty" that you dislike?

That it is used more often than not only in reference to the actions of police officers. We should withhold judgement and give them the benefit of the doubt, but the dead black man? He most certainly was up to no good and probably deserved it or at the very least caused his own death by doing something shady. We don't know what he did yet, but we're sure it was something.

Plus a forum is not a court of law. But these days you can't have a conversation w/o someone butting in and shaking their virtual finger and declaring, "Uh, uh, uh - innocent until proven guilty......" Plus officers are so rarely charged that we never get to that point. And just because they are not charged doesn't mean they are innocent. Conversely, just because someone is found not guilty doesn't mean they are 100% innocent.

Basically, the term is not fairly applied and is often used to shut down discussion.

In my mind everyone (including Freddy Gray) is innocent until proven guilty.  From the looks of this, Freddy Gray was simply arrested without cause (or minimal cause at best) but who knows until the facts come out.

[Kris]

 Also, in every class room there were all races! All races went to the same schools, restaurants, gyms, stores, and any other place they wanted just like me.

Unlike in the United States.

HAHAHA! Seriously! People are making it sound like the USA doesn't have any of this! Sounds like I grew up in some magical country and that we are still in the 1950s here! To be honest, I blame the mass media for making it look way worse than it really is. I understand there are issues and we have progressed very far, but the media is driving these issues most the time.

For instance, I think you could ask people in West Baltimore whether all races are going to the same schools, restaurants, gyms, stores, and any other place they wanted.  I wonder what most black people in West Baltimore would say if one suggested that they had the same access to all of these things as, say, a white person.

[Gin1984]

Some of the "arguments" on here -- Innocent Until Proven Guilty

What is it about "innocent until proven guilty" that you dislike?

That it is used more often than not only in reference to the actions of police officers. We should withhold judgement and give them the benefit of the doubt, but the dead black man? He most certainly was up to no good and probably deserved it or at the very least caused his own death by doing something shady. We don't know what he did yet, but we're sure it was something.

Plus a forum is not a court of law. But these days you can't have a conversation w/o someone butting in and shaking their virtual finger and declaring, "Uh, uh, uh - innocent until proven guilty......" Plus officers are so rarely charged that we never get to that point. And just because they are not charged doesn't mean they are innocent. Conversely, just because someone is found not guilty doesn't mean they are 100% innocent.

Basically, the term is not fairly applied and is often used to shut down discussion.

In my mind everyone (including Freddy Gray) is innocent until proven guilty.  From the looks of this, Freddy Gray was simply arrested without cause (or minimal cause at best) but who knows until the facts come out.

But even if he was arrested for cause, was what happened to him (at very least the refusing to get medical care on the part of officers) ok to you?

[Killerbrandt]

 Also, in every class room there were all races! All races went to the same schools, restaurants, gyms, stores, and any other place they wanted just like me.

Unlike in the United States.

HAHAHA! Seriously! People are making it sound like the USA doesn't have any of this! Sounds like I grew up in some magical country and that we are still in the 1950s here! To be honest, I blame the mass media for making it look way worse than it really is. I understand there are issues and we have progressed very far, but the media is driving these issues most the time.

For instance, I think you could ask people in West Baltimore whether all races are going to the same schools, restaurants, gyms, stores, and any other place they wanted.  I wonder what most black people in West Baltimore would say if one suggested that they had the same access to all of these things as, say, a white person.

You are right! The answers would be crazy!! However, does that mean they are legally not allowed to or is it more of a community thing taught within families to think that?

[Kris]

 Also, in every class room there were all races! All races went to the same schools, restaurants, gyms, stores, and any other place they wanted just like me.

Unlike in the United States.

HAHAHA! Seriously! People are making it sound like the USA doesn't have any of this! Sounds like I grew up in some magical country and that we are still in the 1950s here! To be honest, I blame the mass media for making it look way worse than it really is. I understand there are issues and we have progressed very far, but the media is driving these issues most the time.

For instance, I think you could ask people in West Baltimore whether all races are going to the same schools, restaurants, gyms, stores, and any other place they wanted.  I wonder what most black people in West Baltimore would say if one suggested that they had the same access to all of these things as, say, a white person.

You are right! The answers would be crazy!! However, does that mean they are legally not allowed to or is it more of a community thing taught within families to think that?

How would they be "taught" that mindset, do you think?  Perhaps from experience with the social gatekeepers?  If you are constantly being shown that you don't have the same access as a white person, then yeah, I think you're gonna learn that lesson. 

Legally, Freddy Gray was allowed to hang around where he was, with a knife in his pocket.  But he paid for it with his life.  If he had been a white person, it's very likely this wouldn't have happened, I think. 

Comedian Chris Rock does this thing where he takes a photo and Instagrams it every time he gets stopped by the cops for Driving While Black.  Does he have the same access to being able to drive without being harassed as the typical white person?  I think his Instagram account would suggest he does not.

[MDM]

That it is used more often than not only in reference to the actions of police officers.

Plus a forum is not a court of law. But these days you can't have a conversation w/o someone butting in and shaking their virtual finger and declaring, "Uh, uh, uh - innocent until proven guilty......"

Basically, the term is not fairly applied and is often used to shut down discussion.

Fair point that it should apply to everyone.  Better to work toward that end, rather than not apply it to anyone.

People of all persuasions tend to believe reports that fit their preconceived notions, and be skeptical of ones that don't.  Interesting discussions can occur when participants are willing to examine evidence that their opinions may be incorrect.

[Midwest]

Some of the "arguments" on here -- Innocent Until Proven Guilty

What is it about "innocent until proven guilty" that you dislike?

That it is used more often than not only in reference to the actions of police officers. We should withhold judgement and give them the benefit of the doubt, but the dead black man? He most certainly was up to no good and probably deserved it or at the very least caused his own death by doing something shady. We don't know what he did yet, but we're sure it was something.

Plus a forum is not a court of law. But these days you can't have a conversation w/o someone butting in and shaking their virtual finger and declaring, "Uh, uh, uh - innocent until proven guilty......" Plus officers are so rarely charged that we never get to that point. And just because they are not charged doesn't mean they are innocent. Conversely, just because someone is found not guilty doesn't mean they are 100% innocent.

Basically, the term is not fairly applied and is often used to shut down discussion.

In my mind everyone (including Freddy Gray) is innocent until proven guilty.  From the looks of this, Freddy Gray was simply arrested without cause (or minimal cause at best) but who knows until the facts come out.

But even if he was arrested for cause, was what happened to him (at very least the refusing to get medical care on the part of officers) ok to you?

Of course not.  Not on the injuries, not on the lack of medical care.  None of that is ok.  If the arrest was bs, not ok on that either. 

I've never defended what happened to him.  I just prefer to wait until the whole story comes out.  Officers deserve the same rights as citizens in criminal proceedings.  No more and no less.  Right now, officers seem to get more rights which is a travesty but it doesn't mean they deserve less.

[Killerbrandt]

 Also, in every class room there were all races! All races went to the same schools, restaurants, gyms, stores, and any other place they wanted just like me.

Unlike in the United States.

HAHAHA! Seriously! People are making it sound like the USA doesn't have any of this! Sounds like I grew up in some magical country and that we are still in the 1950s here! To be honest, I blame the mass media for making it look way worse than it really is. I understand there are issues and we have progressed very far, but the media is driving these issues most the time.

For instance, I think you could ask people in West Baltimore whether all races are going to the same schools, restaurants, gyms, stores, and any other place they wanted.  I wonder what most black people in West Baltimore would say if one suggested that they had the same access to all of these things as, say, a white person.

You are right! The answers would be crazy!! However, does that mean they are legally not allowed to or is it more of a community thing taught within families to think that?

How would they be "taught" that mindset, do you think?  Perhaps from experience with the social gatekeepers?  If you are constantly being shown that you don't have the same access as a white person, then yeah, I think you're gonna learn that lesson. 

Legally, Freddy Gray was allowed to hang around where he was, with a knife in his pocket.  But he paid for it with his life.  If he had been a white person, it's very likely this wouldn't have happened, I think. 

Comedian Chris Rock does this thing where he takes a photo and Instagrams it every time he gets stopped by the cops for Driving While Black.  Does he have the same access to being able to drive without being harassed as the typical white person?  I think his Instagram account would suggest he does not.

That is the question right there! How would they be "taught" that mindset? It is going to take the families to show that, which could take decades with the mindsets I see on these posts. I have friends that think, hey nothing is going to stop me and then I have friends that are always blaming others and act held back. In my experience, the friends with the better mindset usually make it. I do not care what race you are, because we all have had hard times in our lives, but its what you take from it or how you handle it that matters.

For the Freddie Gray stuff, I am not going to get into that much because I do not know what the rules are where he was, because I have been checked by the police for loitering before. I also have been in hand cuffs many times because of situations around me, but did I spit on the cops or escalate the situation further? no! because nothing gets done by doing that.

Chris Rock is funny! Love that guy!! But should I post every time I get pulled over? or talked to by the police? because it happens to us all. In Del Rio, I was stopped many times and hated upon because I was white, but legally they still gave me my food and allowed me to buy items I needed. I ignored the evil stares because I know they are just ignorant.

Maybe I do not see what you all are coming from fully because I grew up with the military mainly and currently live in San Antonio (66 percent Hispanic, I am a minority, but very laid back here). Also, I believe the millennial generation experiences this a lot less, because we did not have to go through what the boomers and previous generations had to. The hate and events are not in the back of our minds.

[Gin1984]

 Also, in every class room there were all races! All races went to the same schools, restaurants, gyms, stores, and any other place they wanted just like me.

Unlike in the United States.

HAHAHA! Seriously! People are making it sound like the USA doesn't have any of this! Sounds like I grew up in some magical country and that we are still in the 1950s here! To be honest, I blame the mass media for making it look way worse than it really is. I understand there are issues and we have progressed very far, but the media is driving these issues most the time.

For instance, I think you could ask people in West Baltimore whether all races are going to the same schools, restaurants, gyms, stores, and any other place they wanted.  I wonder what most black people in West Baltimore would say if one suggested that they had the same access to all of these things as, say, a white person.

You are right! The answers would be crazy!! However, does that mean they are legally not allowed to or is it more of a community thing taught within families to think that?

How would they be "taught" that mindset, do you think?  Perhaps from experience with the social gatekeepers?  If you are constantly being shown that you don't have the same access as a white person, then yeah, I think you're gonna learn that lesson. 

Legally, Freddy Gray was allowed to hang around where he was, with a knife in his pocket.  But he paid for it with his life.  If he had been a white person, it's very likely this wouldn't have happened, I think. 

Comedian Chris Rock does this thing where he takes a photo and Instagrams it every time he gets stopped by the cops for Driving While Black.  Does he have the same access to being able to drive without being harassed as the typical white person?  I think his Instagram account would suggest he does not.

That is the question right there! How would they be "taught" that mindset? It is going to take the families to show that, which could take decades with the mindsets I see on these posts. I have friends that think, hey nothing is going to stop me and then I have friends that are always blaming others and act held back. In my experience, the friends with the better mindset usually make it. I do not care what race you are, because we all have had hard times in our lives, but its what you take from it or how you handle it that matters.

For the Freddie Gray stuff, I am not going to get into that much because I do not know what the rules are where he was, because I have been checked by the police for loitering before. I also have been in hand cuffs many times because of situations around me, but did I spit on the cops or escalate the situation further? no! because nothing gets done by doing that.

Chris Rock is funny! Love that guy!! But should I post every time I get pulled over? or talked to by the police? because it happens to us all. In Del Rio, I was stopped many times and hated upon because I was white, but legally they still gave me my food and allowed me to buy items I needed. I ignored the evil stares because I know they are just ignorant.

Maybe I do not see what you all are coming from fully because I grew up with the military mainly and currently live in San Antonio (66 percent Hispanic, I am a minority, but very laid back here). Also, I believe the millennial generation experiences this a lot less, because we did not have to go through what the boomers and previous generations had to. The hate and events are not in the back of our minds.

I've never been pulled over when I was not in the wrong.  And even the times I was, I've never gotten a ticket.  I've never been put in handcuffs.

[Killerbrandt]

 Also, in every class room there were all races! All races went to the same schools, restaurants, gyms, stores, and any other place they wanted just like me.

Unlike in the United States.

HAHAHA! Seriously! People are making it sound like the USA doesn't have any of this! Sounds like I grew up in some magical country and that we are still in the 1950s here! To be honest, I blame the mass media for making it look way worse than it really is. I understand there are issues and we have progressed very far, but the media is driving these issues most the time.

For instance, I think you could ask people in West Baltimore whether all races are going to the same schools, restaurants, gyms, stores, and any other place they wanted.  I wonder what most black people in West Baltimore would say if one suggested that they had the same access to all of these things as, say, a white person.

You are right! The answers would be crazy!! However, does that mean they are legally not allowed to or is it more of a community thing taught within families to think that?

How would they be "taught" that mindset, do you think?  Perhaps from experience with the social gatekeepers?  If you are constantly being shown that you don't have the same access as a white person, then yeah, I think you're gonna learn that lesson. 

Legally, Freddy Gray was allowed to hang around where he was, with a knife in his pocket.  But he paid for it with his life.  If he had been a white person, it's very likely this wouldn't have happened, I think. 

Comedian Chris Rock does this thing where he takes a photo and Instagrams it every time he gets stopped by the cops for Driving While Black.  Does he have the same access to being able to drive without being harassed as the typical white person?  I think his Instagram account would suggest he does not.

That is the question right there! How would they be "taught" that mindset? It is going to take the families to show that, which could take decades with the mindsets I see on these posts. I have friends that think, hey nothing is going to stop me and then I have friends that are always blaming others and act held back. In my experience, the friends with the better mindset usually make it. I do not care what race you are, because we all have had hard times in our lives, but its what you take from it or how you handle it that matters.

For the Freddie Gray stuff, I am not going to get into that much because I do not know what the rules are where he was, because I have been checked by the police for loitering before. I also have been in hand cuffs many times because of situations around me, but did I spit on the cops or escalate the situation further? no! because nothing gets done by doing that.

Chris Rock is funny! Love that guy!! But should I post every time I get pulled over? or talked to by the police? because it happens to us all. In Del Rio, I was stopped many times and hated upon because I was white, but legally they still gave me my food and allowed me to buy items I needed. I ignored the evil stares because I know they are just ignorant.

Maybe I do not see what you all are coming from fully because I grew up with the military mainly and currently live in San Antonio (66 percent Hispanic, I am a minority, but very laid back here). Also, I believe the millennial generation experiences this a lot less, because we did not have to go through what the boomers and previous generations had to. The hate and events are not in the back of our minds.

I've never been pulled over when I was not in the wrong.  And even the times I was, I've never gotten a ticket.  I've never been put in handcuffs.

Congrats! That is your situation, but I have been many times.

[Gin1984]

 Also, in every class room there were all races! All races went to the same schools, restaurants, gyms, stores, and any other place they wanted just like me.

Unlike in the United States.

HAHAHA! Seriously! People are making it sound like the USA doesn't have any of this! Sounds like I grew up in some magical country and that we are still in the 1950s here! To be honest, I blame the mass media for making it look way worse than it really is. I understand there are issues and we have progressed very far, but the media is driving these issues most the time.

For instance, I think you could ask people in West Baltimore whether all races are going to the same schools, restaurants, gyms, stores, and any other place they wanted.  I wonder what most black people in West Baltimore would say if one suggested that they had the same access to all of these things as, say, a white person.

You are right! The answers would be crazy!! However, does that mean they are legally not allowed to or is it more of a community thing taught within families to think that?

How would they be "taught" that mindset, do you think?  Perhaps from experience with the social gatekeepers?  If you are constantly being shown that you don't have the same access as a white person, then yeah, I think you're gonna learn that lesson. 

Legally, Freddy Gray was allowed to hang around where he was, with a knife in his pocket.  But he paid for it with his life.  If he had been a white person, it's very likely this wouldn't have happened, I think. 

Comedian Chris Rock does this thing where he takes a photo and Instagrams it every time he gets stopped by the cops for Driving While Black.  Does he have the same access to being able to drive without being harassed as the typical white person?  I think his Instagram account would suggest he does not.

That is the question right there! How would they be "taught" that mindset? It is going to take the families to show that, which could take decades with the mindsets I see on these posts. I have friends that think, hey nothing is going to stop me and then I have friends that are always blaming others and act held back. In my experience, the friends with the better mindset usually make it. I do not care what race you are, because we all have had hard times in our lives, but its what you take from it or how you handle it that matters.

For the Freddie Gray stuff, I am not going to get into that much because I do not know what the rules are where he was, because I have been checked by the police for loitering before. I also have been in hand cuffs many times because of situations around me, but did I spit on the cops or escalate the situation further? no! because nothing gets done by doing that.

Chris Rock is funny! Love that guy!! But should I post every time I get pulled over? or talked to by the police? because it happens to us all. In Del Rio, I was stopped many times and hated upon because I was white, but legally they still gave me my food and allowed me to buy items I needed. I ignored the evil stares because I know they are just ignorant.

Maybe I do not see what you all are coming from fully because I grew up with the military mainly and currently live in San Antonio (66 percent Hispanic, I am a minority, but very laid back here). Also, I believe the millennial generation experiences this a lot less, because we did not have to go through what the boomers and previous generations had to. The hate and events are not in the back of our minds.

I've never been pulled over when I was not in the wrong.  And even the times I was, I've never gotten a ticket.  I've never been put in handcuffs.

Congrats! That is your situation, but I have been many times.

But you said, "it happens to us all." And it really doesn't.  A classmate and I were in a psychology class, psychology of prejudice, and we were discussing dealing with cops.  And we were private school kids there.  All the public school kids talked about being bothered by cops on campus, some talked about legal trouble stemming from on campus behavior.  For us, nothing.  The cops did not come on our campus, they left us alone if we had identifying clothes that marked us as going to those school, behavioral issues were deal with internally vs with police involvement.  As he said, you never know which kid is the kid of the judge or lawyer in that case so we all got left alone.  Private school have the same amount of drug use, but we don't get caught, because no one is looking.  As a white woman, most cops don't see me as a threat.  I've had male friends hand me pocket knives before going around cops because it is safe for me to have them but not them, even though having a pocket knife is legal.  But then again, it was legal in Grey's case too and saw what happen there.   

[Killerbrandt]

 Also, in every class room there were all races! All races went to the same schools, restaurants, gyms, stores, and any other place they wanted just like me.

Unlike in the United States.

HAHAHA! Seriously! People are making it sound like the USA doesn't have any of this! Sounds like I grew up in some magical country and that we are still in the 1950s here! To be honest, I blame the mass media for making it look way worse than it really is. I understand there are issues and we have progressed very far, but the media is driving these issues most the time.

For instance, I think you could ask people in West Baltimore whether all races are going to the same schools, restaurants, gyms, stores, and any other place they wanted.  I wonder what most black people in West Baltimore would say if one suggested that they had the same access to all of these things as, say, a white person.

You are right! The answers would be crazy!! However, does that mean they are legally not allowed to or is it more of a community thing taught within families to think that?

How would they be "taught" that mindset, do you think?  Perhaps from experience with the social gatekeepers?  If you are constantly being shown that you don't have the same access as a white person, then yeah, I think you're gonna learn that lesson. 

Legally, Freddy Gray was allowed to hang around where he was, with a knife in his pocket.  But he paid for it with his life.  If he had been a white person, it's very likely this wouldn't have happened, I think. 

Comedian Chris Rock does this thing where he takes a photo and Instagrams it every time he gets stopped by the cops for Driving While Black.  Does he have the same access to being able to drive without being harassed as the typical white person?  I think his Instagram account would suggest he does not.

That is the question right there! How would they be "taught" that mindset? It is going to take the families to show that, which could take decades with the mindsets I see on these posts. I have friends that think, hey nothing is going to stop me and then I have friends that are always blaming others and act held back. In my experience, the friends with the better mindset usually make it. I do not care what race you are, because we all have had hard times in our lives, but its what you take from it or how you handle it that matters.

For the Freddie Gray stuff, I am not going to get into that much because I do not know what the rules are where he was, because I have been checked by the police for loitering before. I also have been in hand cuffs many times because of situations around me, but did I spit on the cops or escalate the situation further? no! because nothing gets done by doing that.

Chris Rock is funny! Love that guy!! But should I post every time I get pulled over? or talked to by the police? because it happens to us all. In Del Rio, I was stopped many times and hated upon because I was white, but legally they still gave me my food and allowed me to buy items I needed. I ignored the evil stares because I know they are just ignorant.

Maybe I do not see what you all are coming from fully because I grew up with the military mainly and currently live in San Antonio (66 percent Hispanic, I am a minority, but very laid back here). Also, I believe the millennial generation experiences this a lot less, because we did not have to go through what the boomers and previous generations had to. The hate and events are not in the back of our minds.

I've never been pulled over when I was not in the wrong.  And even the times I was, I've never gotten a ticket.  I've never been put in handcuffs.

Congrats! That is your situation, but I have been many times.

But you said, "it happens to us all." And it really doesn't.  A classmate and I were in a psychology class, psychology of prejudice, and we were discussing dealing with cops.  And we were private school kids there.  All the public school kids talked about being bothered by cops on campus, some talked about legal trouble stemming from on campus behavior.  For us, nothing.  The cops did not come on our campus, they left us alone if we had identifying clothes that marked us as going to those school, behavioral issues were deal with internally vs with police involvement.  As he said, you never know which kid is the kid of the judge or lawyer in that case so we all got left alone.  Private school have the same amount of drug use, but we don't get caught, because no one is looking.  As a white woman, most cops don't see me as a threat.  I've had male friends hand me pocket knives before going around cops because it is safe for me to have them but not them, even though having a pocket knife is legal.  But then again, it was legal in Grey's case too and saw what happen there.   

I said we all get pulled over, not, pulled over for no reason.

[Killerbrandt]

"But you said, "it happens to us all." And it really doesn't.  A classmate and I were in a psychology class, psychology of prejudice, and we were discussing dealing with cops.  And we were private school kids there.  All the public school kids talked about being bothered by cops on campus, some talked about legal trouble stemming from on campus behavior.  For us, nothing.  The cops did not come on our campus, they left us alone if we had identifying clothes that marked us as going to those school, behavioral issues were deal with internally vs with police involvement.  As he said, you never know which kid is the kid of the judge or lawyer in that case so we all got left alone.  Private school have the same amount of drug use, but we don't get caught, because no one is looking.  As a white woman, most cops don't see me as a threat.  I've had male friends hand me pocket knives before going around cops because it is safe for me to have them but not them, even though having a pocket knife is legal.  But then again, it was legal in Grey's case too and saw what happen there."


Also, what is your point with this? Because I have been stopped by police and my black friend next to me wasn't. So you are saying because of your situation, ALL white people get this special privilege you all speak about? Honestly, I still blame the media for pushing this crap out. They are making everyone think only blacks get this or only whites get this. HELLO PEOPLE! We all have gone through crap for different reasons. Did you recently see FOX News yesterday? They reported that a cop gunned down a person! The crowd went crazy, but immediately the news apologized because they admitted they reported false news! but the crowd was still going nuts! it was ridiculous!

[MDM]

But then again, it was legal in Grey's case too and saw what happen there.   

How important is the legality or illegality of Gray's knife?

[Killerbrandt]

That it is used more often than not only in reference to the actions of police officers.

Plus a forum is not a court of law. But these days you can't have a conversation w/o someone butting in and shaking their virtual finger and declaring, "Uh, uh, uh - innocent until proven guilty......"

Basically, the term is not fairly applied and is often used to shut down discussion.

Fair point that it should apply to everyone.  Better to work toward that end, rather than not apply it to anyone.

People of all persuasions tend to believe reports that fit their preconceived notions, and be skeptical of ones that don't.  Interesting discussions can occur when participants are willing to examine evidence that their opinions may be incorrect.

I really like this comment :)

[Gin1984]

But then again, it was legal in Grey's case too and saw what happen there.   

How important is the legality or illegality of Gray's knife?

Well I am not a lawyer but it means that they arrested without cause, which may be very important.

[Kris]

But then again, it was legal in Grey's case too and saw what happen there.   

How important is the legality or illegality of Gray's knife?

Well I am not a lawyer but it means that they arrested without cause, which may be very important.

Yes, exactly.  If you listen to the state attorney's press conference, she clearly states that the officers illegally arrested Freddy Gray.  So, pretty important, as he never should have been in the police van based on her team's investigation. 

[MDM]

But then again, it was legal in Grey's case too and saw what happen there.   

How important is the legality or illegality of Gray's knife?

Well I am not a lawyer but it means that they arrested without cause, which may be very important.

Yes, exactly.  If you listen to the state attorney's press conference, she clearly states that the officers illegally arrested Freddy Gray.  So, pretty important, as he never should have been in the police van based on her team's investigation.

Although I think the specific issue of the knife itself is largely irrelevant in the bigger picture, there is more recent information from a Baltimore Sun article published yesterday: 'While Mosby said Friday that the officers had made an illegal arrest because a knife Gray was carrying was not a "switchblade," a violation of state law, the police task force studied the knife and determined it was "spring-assisted," which does violate a Baltimore code.'

Of course, who knows what today or tomorrow will bring?

[Gin1984]

But then again, it was legal in Grey's case too and saw what happen there.   

How important is the legality or illegality of Gray's knife?

Well I am not a lawyer but it means that they arrested without cause, which may be very important.

Yes, exactly.  If you listen to the state attorney's press conference, she clearly states that the officers illegally arrested Freddy Gray.  So, pretty important, as he never should have been in the police van based on her team's investigation.

Although I think the specific issue of the knife itself is largely irrelevant in the bigger picture, there is more recent information from a Baltimore Sun article published yesterday: 'While Mosby said Friday that the officers had made an illegal arrest because a knife Gray was carrying was not a "switchblade," a violation of state law, the police task force studied the knife and determined it was "spring-assisted," which does violate a Baltimore code.'

Of course, who knows what today or tomorrow will bring?

I'd like to see independent verification that it was spring assisted. 

[KBecks2]

Some of the "arguments" on here -- Innocent Until Proven Guilty; once a thug always a thug, and because of this a death was justifiable regardless of whether the thing for which he was detained was legal or not; and IMO the absolute worst - White people made America great -- have been so frustrating for me to read that I really just couldn't respond without breaking the forum rules. 

Like with the prior Ferguson thread, I really started to despair, but then Toque, miss madge, Kris and several others have come on here and restored my confidence. Thanks so much.

Innocent until proven guilty makes you frustrated?   Hello? 

[velocistar237]

Some of the "arguments" on here -- Innocent Until Proven Guilty

Innocent until proven guilty makes you frustrated?   Hello?

She explained it above, that she's frustrated that it gets applied to the police officers more often than the victims or the protestors.

[rocksinmyhead]

I'm always a little baffled at people who insist privilege isn't a thing because "I'm white and things have gone wrong in my life from time to time, but I know black people who have it really easy" or "I'm a man and not everything has been handed to me on a silver spoon, but I know women who've totally had things handed to them." doh, "privilege" in this context doesn't mean your life is perfect and easy if you're white, or that every black person has a harder time of it than every white person. it just means our society and "the system" are a lot easier on white people than they are on black people. they are structured to generally benefit white people, not black people. I guess I'm just really surprised that people keep trying to deny that, because it seems really obvious to me.

[Killerbrandt]

I'm always a little baffled at people who insist privilege isn't a thing because "I'm white and things have gone wrong in my life from time to time, but I know black people who have it really easy" or "I'm a man and not everything has been handed to me on a silver spoon, but I know women who've totally had things handed to them." doh, "privilege" in this context doesn't mean your life is perfect and easy if you're white, or that every black person has a harder time of it than every white person. it just means our society and "the system" are a lot easier on white people than they are on black people. they are structured to generally benefit white people, not black people. I guess I'm just really surprised that people keep trying to deny that, because it seems really obvious to me.

Please prove that the system aims toward whites. Because I know things like Affirmative action benefit minorities, but there is no equivalent for whites. Why do you think colleges are getting rid of that rule? It's because times have changed since the civil rights protests.

[GuitarStv]

Unequal employment opportunities: http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

Unequal poverty: http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/poverty-rate-by-raceethnicity/

Unequal treatment by police: http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=702

Police treatment partly leads to unequal rates of incarceration: http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet


How much proof do you want?

[justajane]

Please prove that the system aims toward whites. Because I know things like Affirmative action benefit minorities, but there is no equivalent for whites. Why do you think colleges are getting rid of that rule? It's because times have changed since the civil rights protests.

Colleges have gotten rid of affirmative action because of recent Supreme Court rulings forbidding the use of racial criteria in admissions decisions. This came about because a bunch of white plaintiffs backed by conservative interest groups complained that they were getting unfair treatment. It's not because universities think affirmative action is no longer needed. In fact, Michigan (one of the universities sued) has expressly said that they are against the Supreme Court rulings and will do whatever they can to continue to foster much needed diversity without breaking the law.   

[Killerbrandt]

Are any of those created by the government stopping them from succeeding in life? Seriously, that is not proof that you posted. It could very well be a cultural thing or a community issue. My point is, what do you all want the government to do? because they have all the laws out to protect individual freedoms, they allow access to everyone now. Matter of fact they limit access to some to allow access to others (affirmative action). This isn't like the 1950's! There are no signs on stores, schools, administration buildings, or neighborhoods saying "NO BLACKS". So what do you all honestly want to happen? It will be impossible to get rid of racism on a personal level in any country! But our country has come a long way to allow access to every citizen. So please suggest what the Government can do?

[Gin1984]

Are any of those created by the government stopping them from succeeding in life? Seriously, that is not proof that you posted. It could very well be a cultural thing or a community issue. My point is, what do you all want the government to do? because they have all the laws out to protect individual freedoms, they allow access to everyone now. Matter of fact they limit access to some to allow access to others (affirmative action). This isn't like the 1950's! There are no signs on stores, schools, administration buildings, or neighborhoods saying "NO BLACKS". So what do you all honestly want to happen? It will be impossible to get rid of racism on a personal level in any country! But our country has come a long way to allow access to every citizen. So please suggest what the Government can do?

You seem to misunderstand what privilege is, or lack of privilege causes.  Have you ever heard the expression, "work twice as hard to be thought of as half as good"? Actually there are a lot things that can be done on the federal level.  For example, an easy one that would require no money would be to remove names from grant application/government job application, at least the first round.

[cavewoman]

I'd also like to thank Kris, and Miss Madge, and Frugal Toque.  I have a lot of feelings and thoughts about issues like this, but I don't make my arguments as eloquently as you do.

Approximately 300 other words have been written and deleted for this post by me, but I still just can't get it out right.

Mostly it makes me feel sad and powerless.  Between Baltimore and Nepal I've had to go back on a low-information diet.  I have to read instead of watch or listen, because otherwise I find myself tearing up over and over.

[justajane]

I'm still trying to figure out in what colorblind utopia Killerbrandt has landed. Where ever that is




But for now I live in St. Louis and....well, we've heard enough about that place in the last year.

[Killerbrandt]

Are any of those created by the government stopping them from succeeding in life? Seriously, that is not proof that you posted. It could very well be a cultural thing or a community issue. My point is, what do you all want the government to do? because they have all the laws out to protect individual freedoms, they allow access to everyone now. Matter of fact they limit access to some to allow access to others (affirmative action). This isn't like the 1950's! There are no signs on stores, schools, administration buildings, or neighborhoods saying "NO BLACKS". So what do you all honestly want to happen? It will be impossible to get rid of racism on a personal level in any country! But our country has come a long way to allow access to every citizen. So please suggest what the Government can do?

You seem to misunderstand what privilege is, or lack of privilege causes.  Have you ever heard the expression, "work twice as hard to be And now my insurance (which is paying none of this because high deductible) tried to tell me I could not get the 90 supply from wegmans. When I said how can you tell me what to do when you are not paying, I was told well it won't be covered as part of your deductible. I'm not paying more so it will be part of my deductible. of as half as good".  Actually there are a lot things that can be done.  For example, an easy one that would require no money would be to remove names from grant application/government job application, at least the first round.

Yes! I agree big time! But earlier when I said that we need to stop labeling things and categorizing, I was shot down! Sorry guys that I am so horrible at trying to put things from my mind into writing.

[velocistar237]

So what do you all honestly want to happen?

Fund the schools; improve housing opportunities; train police officers and make them use cameras and be part of the community and establish laws that hold them responsible for their actions; give people temporary infrastructure improvement jobs; establish job programs; decriminalize drugs a la Portugal; build up the community; give financial education; and outlaw civil forfeiture, government conflicts of interest, the municipal fine madness, and usury.

Besides my incomplete laundry list above?

Reparations. Massive wealth transfers to poor neighborhoods to repair the damage from the last few hundred years, or even just the last few decades.

[Kris]

Are any of those created by the government stopping them from succeeding in life? Seriously, that is not proof that you posted. It could very well be a cultural thing or a community issue. My point is, what do you all want the government to do? because they have all the laws out to protect individual freedoms, they allow access to everyone now. Matter of fact they limit access to some to allow access to others (affirmative action). This isn't like the 1950's! There are no signs on stores, schools, administration buildings, or neighborhoods saying "NO BLACKS". So what do you all honestly want to happen? It will be impossible to get rid of racism on a personal level in any country! But our country has come a long way to allow access to every citizen. So please suggest what the Government can do?

You seem to misunderstand what privilege is, or lack of privilege causes.  Have you ever heard the expression, "work twice as hard to be And now my insurance (which is paying none of this because high deductible) tried to tell me I could not get the 90 supply from wegmans. When I said how can you tell me what to do when you are not paying, I was told well it won't be covered as part of your deductible. I'm not paying more so it will be part of my deductible. of as half as good".  Actually there are a lot things that can be done.  For example, an easy one that would require no money would be to remove names from grant application/government job application, at least the first round.

Yes! I agree big time! But earlier when I said that we need to stop labeling things and categorizing, I was shot down! Sorry guys that I am so horrible at trying to put things from my mind into writing.

Okay, but unless we pass a law requiring all people to wear paper bags over their heads and cover all exposed skin, how do you propose to eliminate systemic racism and whit privilege in the non-anonymous world?

[Killerbrandt]

I'm still trying to figure out in what colorblind utopia Killerbrandt has landed. Where ever that is




But for now I live in St. Louis and....well, we've heard enough about that place in the last year.

Please do come to San Antonio.

[Killerbrandt]

Are any of those created by the government stopping them from succeeding in life? Seriously, that is not proof that you posted. It could very well be a cultural thing or a community issue. My point is, what do you all want the government to do? because they have all the laws out to protect individual freedoms, they allow access to everyone now. Matter of fact they limit access to some to allow access to others (affirmative action). This isn't like the 1950's! There are no signs on stores, schools, administration buildings, or neighborhoods saying "NO BLACKS". So what do you all honestly want to happen? It will be impossible to get rid of racism on a personal level in any country! But our country has come a long way to allow access to every citizen. So please suggest what the Government can do?

You seem to misunderstand what privilege is, or lack of privilege causes.  Have you ever heard the expression, "work twice as hard to be And now my insurance (which is paying none of this because high deductible) tried to tell me I could not get the 90 supply from wegmans. When I said how can you tell me what to do when you are not paying, I was told well it won't be covered as part of your deductible. I'm not paying more so it will be part of my deductible. of as half as good".  Actually there are a lot things that can be done.  For example, an easy one that would require no money would be to remove names from grant application/government job application, at least the first round.

Yes! I agree big time! But earlier when I said that we need to stop labeling things and categorizing, I was shot down! Sorry guys that I am so horrible at trying to put things from my mind into writing.

Okay, but unless we pass a law requiring all people to wear paper bags over their heads and cover all exposed skin, how do you propose to eliminate systemic racism and whit privilege in the non-anonymous world?

It would be a start at least though. Also, the people judging applicants now a days by their skin color are just plain racist, which I believe is more on a personal level. In the past, employers could hide behind state support and old laws, but now a days, people have to go above and beyond to discriminate that badly. Therefore, it needs to be fixed at a personal level (community) more than a federal level I believe. You need to get into the communities and find out why families are still teaching their kids to hate different races like that. Are the schools in that community too segregated?

This is why I am saying I do not see it happening as often on a general overall view, because there more communities in this country that do not have these issues (like San Antonio). Majority of Americans can be successful and succeed with the current laws in place. This issue is more on a individual community scale I believe (like apparently St. Luis). 

[Kris]

Are any of those created by the government stopping them from succeeding in life? Seriously, that is not proof that you posted. It could very well be a cultural thing or a community issue. My point is, what do you all want the government to do? because they have all the laws out to protect individual freedoms, they allow access to everyone now. Matter of fact they limit access to some to allow access to others (affirmative action). This isn't like the 1950's! There are no signs on stores, schools, administration buildings, or neighborhoods saying "NO BLACKS". So what do you all honestly want to happen? It will be impossible to get rid of racism on a personal level in any country! But our country has come a long way to allow access to every citizen. So please suggest what the Government can do?

You seem to misunderstand what privilege is, or lack of privilege causes.  Have you ever heard the expression, "work twice as hard to be And now my insurance (which is paying none of this because high deductible) tried to tell me I could not get the 90 supply from wegmans. When I said how can you tell me what to do when you are not paying, I was told well it won't be covered as part of your deductible. I'm not paying more so it will be part of my deductible. of as half as good".  Actually there are a lot things that can be done.  For example, an easy one that would require no money would be to remove names from grant application/government job application, at least the first round.

Yes! I agree big time! But earlier when I said that we need to stop labeling things and categorizing, I was shot down! Sorry guys that I am so horrible at trying to put things from my mind into writing.

Okay, but unless we pass a law requiring all people to wear paper bags over their heads and cover all exposed skin, how do you propose to eliminate systemic racism and whit privilege in the non-anonymous world?

It would be a start at least though. Also, the people judging applicants now a days by their skin color are just plain racist, which I believe is more on a personal level. In the past, employers could hide behind state support and old laws, but now a days, people have to go above and beyond to discriminate that badly. Therefore, it needs to be fixed at a personal level (community) more than a federal level I believe. You need to get into the communities and find out why families are still teaching their kids to hate different races like that. Are the schools in that community too segregated?

This is why I am saying I do not see it happening as often on a general overall view, because there more communities in this country that do not have these issues (like San Antonio). Majority of Americans can be successful and succeed with the current laws in place. This issue is more on a individual community scale I believe (like apparently St. Luis).

 I would be more inclined to accept your rosy view of San Antonio if it had come from someone other than a caucasian (which I am assuming from your posts that you are).  A quick hop onto Google suggests that your fellow San Antonians who are racial minorities don't share your view.

[justajane]

This is why I am saying I do not see it happening as often on a general overall view, because there more communities in this country that do not have these issues (like San Antonio). Majority of Americans can be successful and succeed with the current laws in place. This issue is more on a individual community scale I believe (like apparently St. Luis).

You do know that Hispanic prejudice against blacks is a documented thing, right? Here's an article about a Duke study that found widespread negative stereotypes and prejudices against African Americans in the Hispanic community in North Carolina: https://today.duke.edu/2006/07/racialpolitics.html

"Researchers found that 58.9 percent of Latino immigrants -- most Latinos in Durham are from Mexico -- feel that few or almost no blacks are hard-working. About one-third, or 32.5 percent, of Latino immigrants reported they feel few or almost no blacks are easy to get along with. More than half of the Latino immigrants, or 56.9 percent, feel that few or almost no blacks could be trusted."

Perhaps San Antonio is an ideal place where everyone accepts everyone and no discrimination exists, but I imagine there is probably more bubbling underneath the surface than you realize.

[GuitarStv]

Are any of those created by the government stopping them from succeeding in life? Seriously, that is not proof that you posted. It could very well be a cultural thing or a community issue. My point is, what do you all want the government to do? because they have all the laws out to protect individual freedoms, they allow access to everyone now. Matter of fact they limit access to some to allow access to others (affirmative action). This isn't like the 1950's! There are no signs on stores, schools, administration buildings, or neighborhoods saying "NO BLACKS". So what do you all honestly want to happen? It will be impossible to get rid of racism on a personal level in any country! But our country has come a long way to allow access to every citizen. So please suggest what the Government can do?

Your question was originally about "the system" not government.

Specifically related to government from the links I posted though, I think that getting police to treat everyone the same way that whites are treated would be a nice place to start.  The police are a branch of government.  Unequal treatment has resulted in an obvious lack of fairness, and has caused many problems.  That's kinda what this whole conversation was about to begin with.