Author Topic: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?  (Read 27040 times)

Morning Glory

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #250 on: April 10, 2025, 02:15:13 PM »
Autistic child shot 9 times by police in Idaho. He was in his yard, on the other side of a fence from them.  Trump recently shut down the federal office that investigated this sort of thing. I don't see it getting any better before my kid gets big enough to be perceived as a "threat".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4kkzbC4DaE&pp=0gcJCdgAo7VqN5tD

GuitarStv

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #251 on: April 10, 2025, 03:15:37 PM »
Autistic child shot 9 times by police in Idaho. He was in his yard, on the other side of a fence from them.  Trump recently shut down the federal office that investigated this sort of thing. I don't see it getting any better before my kid gets big enough to be perceived as a "threat".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4kkzbC4DaE&pp=0gcJCdgAo7VqN5tD

Police were called about a drunk man running around with a big knife.  They arrived on scene told him to drop the weapon, and the 17 year old gets up from the ground and seems to run at them while holding it.  That action pretty much sealed the deal.

The kid was obviously in a messed up state.  I'm not sure if there's any way for a police officer arriving on scene to determine if that's because of PCP, alcohol, some other drug, or autism though.  There was a chain link fence between the police and the kid, and I can see an argument being made that they should have been more restrained in use of firearms.  A person with a knife can close distance and kill very quickly though, I don't feel qualified to second guess the police decision on force in this instance.  This seems like the perfect time to use less lethal arms like taser (despite the many issues associated with those).

It's a tragedy, and I feel terrible for everyone involved.  I dunno though, my untrained eye isn't really seeing an egregious breach of safety on the side of the police here.  Am I missing something?

Morning Glory

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #252 on: April 10, 2025, 03:47:03 PM »
Autistic child shot 9 times by police in Idaho. He was in his yard, on the other side of a fence from them.  Trump recently shut down the federal office that investigated this sort of thing. I don't see it getting any better before my kid gets big enough to be perceived as a "threat".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4kkzbC4DaE&pp=0gcJCdgAo7VqN5tD

Police were called about a drunk man running around with a big knife.  They arrived on scene told him to drop the weapon, and the 17 year old gets up from the ground and seems to run at them while holding it.  That action pretty much sealed the deal.

The kid was obviously in a messed up state.  I'm not sure if there's any way for a police officer arriving on scene to determine if that's because of PCP, alcohol, some other drug, or autism though.  There was a chain link fence between the police and the kid, and I can see an argument being made that they should have been more restrained in use of firearms.  A person with a knife can close distance and kill very quickly though, I don't feel qualified to second guess the police decision on force in this instance.  This seems like the perfect time to use less lethal arms like taser (despite the many issues associated with those).

It's a tragedy, and I feel terrible for everyone involved.  I dunno though, my untrained eye isn't really seeing an egregious breach of safety on the side of the police here.  Am I missing something?
If the officers had some training about people with developmental disabilities and communication challenges it probably could have been prevented. Even if the kid was verbal and not too panicked from being shouted at to understand commands he might not have realized that the knife was the "weapon" they were referring to if he'd never seen one used in that context. It also wouldn't have hurt for the family to introduce themselves to neighbors and explain that the kid plays/looks/moves differently from others but isn't a cause for concern. The knife was worrisome but it would have been better for them to back away and potentially let him cut himself than to shoot him.

The countries with no police shootings must deal with situations like this all the time without using lethal force.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2025, 03:49:07 PM by Morning Glory »

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #253 on: April 10, 2025, 05:25:10 PM »
Tragic.  The four cops with guns could have stepped back from the fence out of potential knife throwing range! If the kid jumped the fence that would be more aggressive,  but the chances of doing major harm from throwing the knife would be an acceptable risk to cops with flap jackets. I think it's on them for getting too close and not accessing the situation correctly. They way over powered and out numbered the poor kid. 

Metalcat

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #254 on: April 11, 2025, 06:33:30 AM »
Autistic child shot 9 times by police in Idaho. He was in his yard, on the other side of a fence from them.  Trump recently shut down the federal office that investigated this sort of thing. I don't see it getting any better before my kid gets big enough to be perceived as a "threat".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4kkzbC4DaE&pp=0gcJCdgAo7VqN5tD

Police were called about a drunk man running around with a big knife.  They arrived on scene told him to drop the weapon, and the 17 year old gets up from the ground and seems to run at them while holding it.  That action pretty much sealed the deal.

The kid was obviously in a messed up state.  I'm not sure if there's any way for a police officer arriving on scene to determine if that's because of PCP, alcohol, some other drug, or autism though.  There was a chain link fence between the police and the kid, and I can see an argument being made that they should have been more restrained in use of firearms.  A person with a knife can close distance and kill very quickly though, I don't feel qualified to second guess the police decision on force in this instance.  This seems like the perfect time to use less lethal arms like taser (despite the many issues associated with those).

It's a tragedy, and I feel terrible for everyone involved.  I dunno though, my untrained eye isn't really seeing an egregious breach of safety on the side of the police here.  Am I missing something?

You don't see the issue because you're not aware of the issue.

Police killing/injuring/mistreating people with neurological differences is a known massive issue. We have a forum member who has experienced this.

Police are already horribly trained when it comes to managing this population and are already a very real danger to their safety. Labeling neurodiverse people as a threat to society and reducing access to care will get MANY more neurodiverse people killed. Period.


GuitarStv

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #255 on: April 11, 2025, 07:59:36 AM »
Autistic child shot 9 times by police in Idaho. He was in his yard, on the other side of a fence from them.  Trump recently shut down the federal office that investigated this sort of thing. I don't see it getting any better before my kid gets big enough to be perceived as a "threat".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4kkzbC4DaE&pp=0gcJCdgAo7VqN5tD

Police were called about a drunk man running around with a big knife.  They arrived on scene told him to drop the weapon, and the 17 year old gets up from the ground and seems to run at them while holding it.  That action pretty much sealed the deal.

The kid was obviously in a messed up state.  I'm not sure if there's any way for a police officer arriving on scene to determine if that's because of PCP, alcohol, some other drug, or autism though.  There was a chain link fence between the police and the kid, and I can see an argument being made that they should have been more restrained in use of firearms.  A person with a knife can close distance and kill very quickly though, I don't feel qualified to second guess the police decision on force in this instance.  This seems like the perfect time to use less lethal arms like taser (despite the many issues associated with those).

It's a tragedy, and I feel terrible for everyone involved.  I dunno though, my untrained eye isn't really seeing an egregious breach of safety on the side of the police here.  Am I missing something?

You don't see the issue because you're not aware of the issue.

Police killing/injuring/mistreating people with neurological differences is a known massive issue. We have a forum member who has experienced this.

Police are already horribly trained when it comes to managing this population and are already a very real danger to their safety. Labeling neurodiverse people as a threat to society and reducing access to care will get MANY more neurodiverse people killed. Period.

No, I get that this is an ongoing problem with policing (technically, I'd say it's an ongoing problem with our general treatment of mental health.  Police seem to be substituted for care a little too often today, and obviously they're trained to police rather than therapize so there are predictable negative outcomes).  I mean, I've seen a lot of videos of police doing something obviously wrong that ends in someone getting killed/injured that outrage me.  This video shows a man with a knife running towards them and ignoring orders . . . it doesn't trigger me in the same way as say, a group of police casually choking a man to death while he tells them he can't breathe or police kicking in the wrong door in the middle of the night and throwing a flash grenade in the cot of a sleeping baby.

Fundamentally there's always going to be a push/pull situation happening with mentally ill people and police.  Police need to defend themselves, mentally ill people behave unpredictably.  Taking more time to ensure that the person you're talking with is mentally ill, and then figuring out the best approach to de-escalate the situation will result in more injury/death of police officers.  Not doing so will result in more mentally ill people being unnecessarily shot/beaten by police.  I don't know of a clear cut way to really fix the problem.

Morning Glory

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #256 on: April 11, 2025, 08:39:11 AM »
Autistic child shot 9 times by police in Idaho. He was in his yard, on the other side of a fence from them.  Trump recently shut down the federal office that investigated this sort of thing. I don't see it getting any better before my kid gets big enough to be perceived as a "threat".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4kkzbC4DaE&pp=0gcJCdgAo7VqN5tD

Police were called about a drunk man running around with a big knife.  They arrived on scene told him to drop the weapon, and the 17 year old gets up from the ground and seems to run at them while holding it.  That action pretty much sealed the deal.

The kid was obviously in a messed up state.  I'm not sure if there's any way for a police officer arriving on scene to determine if that's because of PCP, alcohol, some other drug, or autism though.  There was a chain link fence between the police and the kid, and I can see an argument being made that they should have been more restrained in use of firearms.  A person with a knife can close distance and kill very quickly though, I don't feel qualified to second guess the police decision on force in this instance.  This seems like the perfect time to use less lethal arms like taser (despite the many issues associated with those).

It's a tragedy, and I feel terrible for everyone involved.  I dunno though, my untrained eye isn't really seeing an egregious breach of safety on the side of the police here.  Am I missing something?

You don't see the issue because you're not aware of the issue.

Police killing/injuring/mistreating people with neurological differences is a known massive issue. We have a forum member who has experienced this.

Police are already horribly trained when it comes to managing this population and are already a very real danger to their safety. Labeling neurodiverse people as a threat to society and reducing access to care will get MANY more neurodiverse people killed. Period.

No, I get that this is an ongoing problem with policing (technically, I'd say it's an ongoing problem with our general treatment of mental health.  Police seem to be substituted for care a little too often today, and obviously they're trained to police rather than therapize so there are predictable negative outcomes).  I mean, I've seen a lot of videos of police doing something obviously wrong that ends in someone getting killed/injured that outrage me.  This video shows a man with a knife running towards them and ignoring orders . . . it doesn't trigger me in the same way as say, a group of police casually choking a man to death while he tells them he can't breathe or police kicking in the wrong door in the middle of the night and throwing a flash grenade in the cot of a sleeping baby.

Fundamentally there's always going to be a push/pull situation happening with mentally ill people and police.  Police need to defend themselves, mentally ill people behave unpredictably.  Taking more time to ensure that the person you're talking with is mentally ill, and then figuring out the best approach to de-escalate the situation will result in more injury/death of police officers.  Not doing so will result in more mentally ill people being unnecessarily shot/beaten by police.  I don't know of a clear cut way to really fix the problem.

Fixing it in the US will take decades, if we can even muster the political will. There are other countries though where it almost never happens (mostly ones with better gun control where police don't need to carry firearms). If your kid had a similar disability and was on track to reach that size by age 13 wouldn't you put it in the "reasons to move" column?

Metalcat

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #257 on: April 11, 2025, 08:59:40 AM »
Autistic child shot 9 times by police in Idaho. He was in his yard, on the other side of a fence from them.  Trump recently shut down the federal office that investigated this sort of thing. I don't see it getting any better before my kid gets big enough to be perceived as a "threat".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4kkzbC4DaE&pp=0gcJCdgAo7VqN5tD

Police were called about a drunk man running around with a big knife.  They arrived on scene told him to drop the weapon, and the 17 year old gets up from the ground and seems to run at them while holding it.  That action pretty much sealed the deal.

The kid was obviously in a messed up state.  I'm not sure if there's any way for a police officer arriving on scene to determine if that's because of PCP, alcohol, some other drug, or autism though.  There was a chain link fence between the police and the kid, and I can see an argument being made that they should have been more restrained in use of firearms.  A person with a knife can close distance and kill very quickly though, I don't feel qualified to second guess the police decision on force in this instance.  This seems like the perfect time to use less lethal arms like taser (despite the many issues associated with those).

It's a tragedy, and I feel terrible for everyone involved.  I dunno though, my untrained eye isn't really seeing an egregious breach of safety on the side of the police here.  Am I missing something?

You don't see the issue because you're not aware of the issue.

Police killing/injuring/mistreating people with neurological differences is a known massive issue. We have a forum member who has experienced this.

Police are already horribly trained when it comes to managing this population and are already a very real danger to their safety. Labeling neurodiverse people as a threat to society and reducing access to care will get MANY more neurodiverse people killed. Period.

No, I get that this is an ongoing problem with policing (technically, I'd say it's an ongoing problem with our general treatment of mental health.  Police seem to be substituted for care a little too often today, and obviously they're trained to police rather than therapize so there are predictable negative outcomes).  I mean, I've seen a lot of videos of police doing something obviously wrong that ends in someone getting killed/injured that outrage me.  This video shows a man with a knife running towards them and ignoring orders . . . it doesn't trigger me in the same way as say, a group of police casually choking a man to death while he tells them he can't breathe or police kicking in the wrong door in the middle of the night and throwing a flash grenade in the cot of a sleeping baby.

Fundamentally there's always going to be a push/pull situation happening with mentally ill people and police.  Police need to defend themselves, mentally ill people behave unpredictably.  Taking more time to ensure that the person you're talking with is mentally ill, and then figuring out the best approach to de-escalate the situation will result in more injury/death of police officers.  Not doing so will result in more mentally ill people being unnecessarily shot/beaten by police.  I don't know of a clear cut way to really fix the problem.

Fixing it in the US will take decades, if we can even muster the political will. There are other countries though where it almost never happens (mostly ones with better gun control where police don't need to carry firearms). If your kid had a similar disability and was on track to reach that size by age 13 wouldn't you put it in the "reasons to move" column?

Exactly. I simply would not feel comfortable raising neurodiverse children in the US right now.

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #258 on: April 11, 2025, 09:04:02 AM »
@GuitarStv those officers reacted SECONDS after arrival, got in too close and shot not once, not twice, but NINE times. Inexcusable.

GuitarStv

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #259 on: April 11, 2025, 09:38:04 AM »
@GuitarStv those officers reacted SECONDS after arrival, got in too close and shot not once, not twice, but NINE times. Inexcusable.

I'm re-watching the video right now.

The officers reacted seconds after arrival because they saw a man with a knife (which is what they were called in for).

I'm not sure how training in the US works, but here in Canada standard training is to shoot 2-3 times center mass to ensure that you'll hit the target in the confusion.  There are four officers pointing weapons . . . so I'd expect that the guy would be hit 8 to 12 times.

Don't get me wrong, I'd have preferred a different outcome.  It sucks that the mentally ill guy with the knife charged at them in confusion.  But this still seems like the police were trying to do their jobs.  I'm not really seeing much of a case for recklessness or carelessness here.  Maybe they could have backed away from the fence to give him a second to stop.  Maybe they got too close in approaching the guy.  Those are both judgement calls, and as a person who didn't have a man with a knife charging me I'm not sure that I'm qualified to make it here.  I feel like if it had turned out that the guy with the knife was high on PCP instead of autistic we wouldn't be having this discussion because nobody would be complaining about an unjustified shooting.



Fixing it in the US will take decades, if we can even muster the political will. There are other countries though where it almost never happens (mostly ones with better gun control where police don't need to carry firearms). If your kid had a similar disability and was on track to reach that size by age 13 wouldn't you put it in the "reasons to move" column?

Exactly. I simply would not feel comfortable raising neurodiverse children in the US right now.

I don't think this has anything to do with the current administration though.  In Obama's time if my neuro-divergent 17 year old ran at police with a knife, I'd expect a pretty bad outcome too.  It really sucks that this kid got a knife and was wandering around outside.  I bet if better support existed for the parents that wouldn't have ever happened to begin with.

For sure, if police don't carry guns then there's a much lower chance of a person interacting with them getting shot.  When you have a lethal option, it's going to be used more often.  Like I said, this situation seems like a natural instance where taser use would make way more sense.  There were four officers.  It's probable that without guns they could have wrestled this kid to the ground without killing him.  It's also much more likely that one of the officers would have been stabbed.  Bulletproof vests are no protection for knives.

But I'd also make the argument that police shootings are a side effect of the lack of gun control in the US in general.  Police know that a huge percentage of the population are armed and so are constantly worried that someone is going to pull out a gun and kill them . . . this naturally taints the police/public trust and colours interactions that occur.

DoubleDown

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #260 on: April 11, 2025, 11:53:26 AM »
I don't know anything about this case, but to give GuitarStv some backup, I think unfortunately in the US when the police are called because a family member is experiencing some kind of mental crisis, it's a real crapshoot to have any kind of good outcome, and odds are generally that the outcome will end up being unnecessarily violent. Sending officers not trained to handle that kind of situation almost ensures they will react violently, and assuredly they will if they are threatened with a weapon as they apparently were in this case. It's the rarer, large jurisdiction that will have officers trained in de-escalation and counselors on hand to deal better with these situations. And it depends on how the call is dispatched -- "armed man with a knife" is automatically going to bring a heightened response versus "family member experiencing emotional crisis." Many families are very reluctant to call the police when a family member is in crisis because they know it could bring an unnecessarily violent response by police.

IIRC, there are something like 1,000 police forces in the United States with 10 officers or fewer. Quality, training, experience, and integrity can be a real crapshoot in those small departments. And of course some large police departments have plenty of their own problems.

Heck, we're considering leaving the U.S. without having a neurodivergent kid; adding that complexity might really add a push.

Kris

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #261 on: April 14, 2025, 05:47:30 AM »
Australia is starting an initiative for gay and trans people to be granted asylum access to flee the US. I hope it passes.

Dancin'Dog

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #262 on: April 14, 2025, 06:32:05 AM »
Australia is starting an initiative for gay and trans people to be granted asylum access to flee the US. I hope it passes.




I know this is a serious reality for many people.


But, the comedian in my has to ask "What form of proof is required?". 

LennStar

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #263 on: April 14, 2025, 11:18:26 AM »
Australia is starting an initiative for gay and trans people to be granted asylum access to flee the US. I hope it passes.




I know this is a serious reality for many people.


But, the comedian in my has to ask "What form of proof is required?".
They are from the US and don't own a MAGA hat.
That should be all the proof you need imho.

bacchi

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #264 on: April 14, 2025, 02:02:23 PM »
Trump plans to ignore the Court's request regarding the accidental deportation of uncharged Kilmar Garcia.

He also stated that he'd open to deporting natural born citizens but only if they're really violent*: "If it’s a homegrown criminal, I have no problem."

Is it time to get the fuck out of Dodge yet?


* Don't worry. Nonviolent white protestors are still further down in the poem.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2025, 02:07:31 PM by bacchi »

moustachebar

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #265 on: April 14, 2025, 02:06:51 PM »
Firebombing the home of a Governor on the first night of Passover?

jrhampt

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #266 on: April 14, 2025, 02:11:22 PM »
Trump plans to ignore the Court's request regarding the uncharged, accidental, deportation of Kilmar Garcia.

He also stated that he'd open to deporting natural born citizens but only if they're really violent*: "If it’s a homegrown criminal, I have no problem."

Is it time to get the fuck out of Dodge yet?


* Don't worry. Nonviolent white protestors are still further down in the poem.

Considering that they can call anyone a criminal, deny due process, and deport...not feeling like anyone is safe.  This guy is not a criminal and married to a US citizen, so you'd figure he'd have some rights (and criminals should get due process too because it's how you establish criminality to begin with).  The economy seems to be the only thing you can get most people to care about, so I suppose the best (?!) we can hope for is that economic devastation turns the country against him before it is too late.

neo von retorch

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #267 on: April 14, 2025, 02:15:45 PM »
Firebombing the home of a Governor on the first night of Passover?

So I looked up the suspect on Facebook. History of being excited about crime and arson. One anti-Biden photo from 2021. Could be anti-Semitism or just general arsonist gone a bit mad (and perhaps MAGA faithful, but there's no further indication from their public Facebook profile than the Biden comment about being owed $2000).

Quote
While police were searching, Balmer used a hammer to break a window and get inside, where he threw gasoline-filled Heineken bottles and started the fire, according to court documents.

Metalcat

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #268 on: April 18, 2025, 01:26:42 PM »
People with autism "will never pay taxes, hold a job, or go in a date."

I just spent my entire day with clients who have autism, all of whom have long, supportive marriages/partnerships, all of whom have graduate degrees, all of whom have high paying white collar jobs, all of whom are getting increasingly afraid for American neurodivergent people.

Scapegoating people with differences for economic problems is...uh...a recognizable playbook.


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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #269 on: April 18, 2025, 02:16:02 PM »
People with autism "will never pay taxes, hold a job, or go in a date."

I just spent my entire day with clients who have autism, all of whom have long, supportive marriages/partnerships, all of whom have graduate degrees, all of whom have high paying white collar jobs, all of whom are getting increasingly afraid for American neurodivergent people.

Scapegoating people with differences for economic problems is...uh...a recognizable playbook.

Yeah, I couldn't sleep last night. Havent had this much anxiety since before Biden was inaugurated. Besides being untrue that was threatening, especially the comments about  how they are supposedly "suffering " and "ruining families ". It wasn't long after the nazis started talking that way that they started killing them and theres a good chance Kennedy  knows that. I think he made it worse when he tried to walk it back by saying "oh, I only meant the people with more support needs than you"

The taxes comment made me think, "not all autistic people, just those who have developed personal finance as a special interest and have all their pretax retirement accounts maxed out"

I found out my kids are automatically British by descent. Right now we have American passports pending for them so the state department has their original birth certificates. I may just pay for copies so I can apply for British ones sooner. The spouse visa process doesn't look too onerous if you can show a bunch of cash in the bank.

NorthernIkigai

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #270 on: April 18, 2025, 11:30:25 PM »
What’s their beef with autism, specifically?

Fru-Gal

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #271 on: April 18, 2025, 11:40:33 PM »
What’s their beef with autism, specifically?

I think it’s tied to his mistaken belief that vaccines cause autism. This was a Russian disinformation campaign that was highly successful. It is not true, of course.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/anti-vax-movement-russian-trolls-fueled-anti-vaccination-debate-in-us-by-spreading-misinformation-twitter-study/

bill1827

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #272 on: April 19, 2025, 01:54:44 AM »
Unfortunately the vaccine disinformation was started in the UK by someone called Andrew Wakefield in 1998. The Russians and antivaxers just latched on to it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_and_autism

Metalcat

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #273 on: April 19, 2025, 04:50:57 AM »
Unfortunately the vaccine disinformation was started in the UK by someone called Andrew Wakefield in 1998. The Russians and antivaxers just latched on to it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_and_autism

Even further back, anti-vaccine propaganda dates back to Nazis. Wakefield's vaccine-autism nonsense is just one flavour of anti-vax bullshit, but it's been a fascist strategy for a loooong time.

Morning Glory

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #274 on: April 19, 2025, 05:38:29 AM »
Vaccine disinformation is a big piece and certainly picked up steam during the pandemic,  but I think there's a couple of other things going on as well.
-funding cuts: they may be attempting to convince people that people with higher needs can't be helped in order to justify cutting services that help them (preschool,  speech therapy, extra support at school and work,  etc)

-liberal tears/fear mongering/backlash over identity politics: they may see autism acceptance as "woke" or "dei", or just want to scare and intimidate people who are different.  The general theme of unacceptance of differences could be an indirect shot at the lgbtq community.

-general confusion about autism labels. DSM 5 got rid of the old subtype labels and loosened the criteria so that a lot of people with vastly different presentations and needs (including those who in the past would have been labeled adhd or just considered a bit quirky) all get the same diagnosis.  Pile on inaccurate media portrayals,  out of touch "awareness" campaigns, and rapidly changing rules about which terminology is ok to use and you've got a mini culture war between caregivers who can't get the help they need and advocates who are tired of being misrepresented. I can see both perspectives but can imagine politicians trying to leverage the invective that gets spewed on social media over this divide.  I don't really see how either side could be happy with Kennedy's statement though.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2025, 05:47:47 AM by Morning Glory »

NorthernIkigai

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #275 on: April 19, 2025, 09:12:46 AM »
I can remember Wakefield, and I understand that anti-vaccine propaganda was a really handy way of stoking disagreement and lack of trust in authorities and science during Covid (for those who like to stir up that kind of shit). But I don’t really follow why that would make people with an autism diagnosis somehow undesirable (except in the wider ”being different” sense that Morning Glory describes): surely, if autism were caused by vaccines, society should have even more empathy with these individuals? I just don’t get Trumpology.

Fru-Gal

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #276 on: April 19, 2025, 10:07:26 AM »
I can remember Wakefield, and I understand that anti-vaccine propaganda was a really handy way of stoking disagreement and lack of trust in authorities and science during Covid (for those who like to stir up that kind of shit). But I don’t really follow why that would make people with an autism diagnosis somehow undesirable (except in the wider ”being different” sense that Morning Glory describes): surely, if autism were caused by vaccines, society should have even more empathy with these individuals? I just don’t get Trumpology.

And a self diagnosed autistic person, Elon Musk, is in the Oval Office.

LennStar

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #277 on: April 19, 2025, 01:48:39 PM »
I can remember Wakefield, and I understand that anti-vaccine propaganda was a really handy way of stoking disagreement and lack of trust in authorities and science during Covid (for those who like to stir up that kind of shit). But I don’t really follow why that would make people with an autism diagnosis somehow undesirable (except in the wider ”being different” sense that Morning Glory describes): surely, if autism were caused by vaccines, society should have even more empathy with these individuals? I just don’t get Trumpology.

And a self diagnosed autistic person, Elon Musk, is in the Oval Office.
But that is a REAL autistic, not a vaccine-autistic, two totally different things!!!!

Logic is the last thing you should expect.

Morning Glory

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #278 on: April 19, 2025, 02:12:13 PM »
I can remember Wakefield, and I understand that anti-vaccine propaganda was a really handy way of stoking disagreement and lack of trust in authorities and science during Covid (for those who like to stir up that kind of shit). But I don’t really follow why that would make people with an autism diagnosis somehow undesirable (except in the wider ”being different” sense that Morning Glory describes): surely, if autism were caused by vaccines, society should have even more empathy with these individuals? I just don’t get Trumpology.

And a self diagnosed autistic person, Elon Musk, is in the Oval Office.

Autism is not an excuse for bad behavior.

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #279 on: April 19, 2025, 02:12:16 PM »
I can remember Wakefield, and I understand that anti-vaccine propaganda was a really handy way of stoking disagreement and lack of trust in authorities and science during Covid (for those who like to stir up that kind of shit). But I don’t really follow why that would make people with an autism diagnosis somehow undesirable (except in the wider ”being different” sense that Morning Glory describes): surely, if autism were caused by vaccines, society should have even more empathy with these individuals? I just don’t get Trumpology.

And a self diagnosed autistic person, Elon Musk, is in the Oval Office.

To be fair, he probably doesn't pay taxes and isn't very good at marriage/relationships, so...

ysette9

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #280 on: April 21, 2025, 08:01:16 AM »

I found out my kids are automatically British by descent. Right now we have American passports pending for them so the state department has their original birth certificates. I may just pay for copies so I can apply for British ones sooner. The spouse visa process doesn't look too onerous if you can show a bunch of cash in the bank.

We just recently got family visas (spouse + dependents) for the UK. I agree that the process wasn't too bad, though you definitely have to shell out a lot of cash. I'd recommend joining the FB group "UK Spouse Visa for USA Citizens". They have checklists on how to navigate the process, and explain a lot that is either confusing, or out right missing in the government documents. We followed their guidance and got through with no issue.

GuitarStv

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #281 on: April 21, 2025, 08:23:58 AM »
I took RFK's statement about telling everyone the cause of autism in September to mean that he has already decided what the cause is (vaccines) and is going to need until September to get together enough discredited doctors to build a flimsy case that can be presented to the public as truth.  Anyone else with the same read?

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #282 on: April 21, 2025, 09:08:20 AM »
I took RFK's statement about telling everyone the cause of autism in September to mean that he has already decided what the cause is (vaccines) and is going to need until September to get together enough discredited doctors to build a flimsy case that can be presented to the public as truth.  Anyone else with the same read?

100%

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #283 on: April 21, 2025, 09:15:10 AM »

I found out my kids are automatically British by descent. Right now we have American passports pending for them so the state department has their original birth certificates. I may just pay for copies so I can apply for British ones sooner. The spouse visa process doesn't look too onerous if you can show a bunch of cash in the bank.

We just recently got family visas (spouse + dependents) for the UK. I agree that the process wasn't too bad, though you definitely have to shell out a lot of cash. I'd recommend joining the FB group "UK Spouse Visa for USA Citizens". They have checklists on how to navigate the process, and explain a lot that is either confusing, or out right missing in the government documents. We followed their guidance and got through with no issue.

Thanks! The health service fee looks big up front but it's less than we'd be paying for health insurance+ copays in the US for that period of time. We are looking at Scotland as it's a bit more progressive than the rest of the UK. I plan to at least visit there this summer and see if I can get my spouse on board with moving.

My dad told me that Ireland also allows UK citizens to live there without a visa, and may have better services at school for my youngest. Their website is a bit friendlier than the UK's and the spouse process is similar but requires a higher income, probably because housing is more expensive there.

 
« Last Edit: April 21, 2025, 09:23:19 AM by Morning Glory »

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #284 on: April 21, 2025, 09:35:10 AM »

My dad told me that Ireland also allows UK citizens to live there without a visa, and may have better services at school for my youngest. Their website is a bit friendlier than the UK's and the spouse process is similar but requires a higher income, probably because housing is more expensive there.
I don't know how that works but I would certainly prfer a EU country to a non-EU.

Morning Glory

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #285 on: April 21, 2025, 09:37:48 AM »
I took RFK's statement about telling everyone the cause of autism in September to mean that he has already decided what the cause is (vaccines) and is going to need until September to get together enough discredited doctors to build a flimsy case that can be presented to the public as truth.  Anyone else with the same read?

100%

You're probably right, but I worry that he'll start unethical experiments or harmful quack treatments, or try and ship people off to institutions again (or worse). He and Trump both have shown extreme and irrational hatred for people with disabilities,  and I don't trust congress or the courts to stop them before people get killed.

Cassie

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #286 on: April 21, 2025, 10:15:58 AM »
Locally the last thing you want to do if someone has a mental health crisis is to call the cops. They will arrive and shoot whoever they see. The last time they shot the unarmed woman that had called about her mother and was waiting outside for the police to arrive.

I spent my career working with people with disabilities and I am really afraid that they are going to eliminate all the services they need and eventually put them in institutions. I think special education for children will also be on the hit list. Ugh!!!

Metalcat

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #287 on: April 21, 2025, 05:41:25 PM »

I found out my kids are automatically British by descent. Right now we have American passports pending for them so the state department has their original birth certificates. I may just pay for copies so I can apply for British ones sooner. The spouse visa process doesn't look too onerous if you can show a bunch of cash in the bank.

We just recently got family visas (spouse + dependents) for the UK. I agree that the process wasn't too bad, though you definitely have to shell out a lot of cash. I'd recommend joining the FB group "UK Spouse Visa for USA Citizens". They have checklists on how to navigate the process, and explain a lot that is either confusing, or out right missing in the government documents. We followed their guidance and got through with no issue.

Thanks! The health service fee looks big up front but it's less than we'd be paying for health insurance+ copays in the US for that period of time. We are looking at Scotland as it's a bit more progressive than the rest of the UK. I plan to at least visit there this summer and see if I can get my spouse on board with moving.

My dad told me that Ireland also allows UK citizens to live there without a visa, and may have better services at school for my youngest. Their website is a bit friendlier than the UK's and the spouse process is similar but requires a higher income, probably because housing is more expensive there.

While the UK and Ireland allow citizens of each to live there, it's not as simple for non-citizen spouses.

Metalcat

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #288 on: April 21, 2025, 05:43:34 PM »
Locally the last thing you want to do if someone has a mental health crisis is to call the cops. They will arrive and shoot whoever they see. The last time they shot the unarmed woman that had called about her mother and was waiting outside for the police to arrive.

I spent my career working with people with disabilities and I am really afraid that they are going to eliminate all the services they need and eventually put them in institutions. I think special education for children will also be on the hit list. Ugh!!!

This is my concern as well.

People have no idea how much work goes into trying (and often failing) to protect disabled folks. A government that openly maligns disabled people will get disabled people killed. Period. 

Gen Pop had such an abysmally poor understanding of how rough things are for disabled folks on average.

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #289 on: April 21, 2025, 06:21:23 PM »
Locally the last thing you want to do if someone has a mental health crisis is to call the cops. They will arrive and shoot whoever they see. The last time they shot the unarmed woman that had called about her mother and was waiting outside for the police to arrive.

I spent my career working with people with disabilities and I am really afraid that they are going to eliminate all the services they need and eventually put them in institutions. I think special education for children will also be on the hit list. Ugh!!!

This is my concern as well.

People have no idea how much work goes into trying (and often failing) to protect disabled folks. A government that openly maligns disabled people will get disabled people killed. Period. 

Gen Pop had such an abysmally poor understanding of how rough things are for disabled folks on average.

My hope is that people will rise up against his hateful rhetoric. I've seen more pushback against his comments even by Trump supporters than I've ever seen before, and the pushback against that pushback was mild and all admitted that the comments on the nature of autism and abilities of autistic people were garbage. It was actually a small ray of hope in the midst of everything.

Cassie

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #290 on: April 21, 2025, 11:42:45 PM »
Locally the last thing you want to do if someone has a mental health crisis is to call the cops. They will arrive and shoot whoever they see. The last time they shot the unarmed woman that had called about her mother and was waiting outside for the police to arrive.

I spent my career working with people with disabilities and I am really afraid that they are going to eliminate all the services they need and eventually put them in institutions. I think special education for children will also be on the hit list. Ugh!!!

This is my concern as well.

People have no idea how much work goes into trying (and often failing) to protect disabled folks. A government that openly maligns disabled people will get disabled people killed. Period. 

Gen Pop had such an abysmally poor understanding of how rough things are for disabled folks on average.

I’m 70 and when I was a kid the only special education was for kids that were called mildly mentally retarded which is now called an intellectual disability. Kids with more severe intellectual disabilities were in horrible state run institutions. They were not allowed to interact with other kids at all at my school . Two of my friends majored in special education in 1972 at college and the Rehabilitation Acts became law in 1973.

People with disabilities were rarely employed until 1973 and with the new law came the department of vocational rehabilitation that helped people with disabilities because employed.  All sorts of supports were developed to help people be successful.

The Idea Act gave children the right to have a free and appropriate education with an individual IEP.  The department of vocational rehabilitation is under the department of education which is 83% funded by the federal government and the rest by the states.  Kennedy was talking about people with certain disabilities such as mental illness being sent to wellness camps to get well. We all know that is a code word for being locked up or worse. All of these programs were decades in the making and could be quickly destroyed. I feel sick even thinking about it.

Metalcat

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #291 on: April 22, 2025, 05:41:38 AM »
Locally the last thing you want to do if someone has a mental health crisis is to call the cops. They will arrive and shoot whoever they see. The last time they shot the unarmed woman that had called about her mother and was waiting outside for the police to arrive.

I spent my career working with people with disabilities and I am really afraid that they are going to eliminate all the services they need and eventually put them in institutions. I think special education for children will also be on the hit list. Ugh!!!

This is my concern as well.

People have no idea how much work goes into trying (and often failing) to protect disabled folks. A government that openly maligns disabled people will get disabled people killed. Period. 

Gen Pop had such an abysmally poor understanding of how rough things are for disabled folks on average.

I’m 70 and when I was a kid the only special education was for kids that were called mildly mentally retarded which is now called an intellectual disability. Kids with more severe intellectual disabilities were in horrible state run institutions. They were not allowed to interact with other kids at all at my school . Two of my friends majored in special education in 1972 at college and the Rehabilitation Acts became law in 1973.

People with disabilities were rarely employed until 1973 and with the new law came the department of vocational rehabilitation that helped people with disabilities because employed.  All sorts of supports were developed to help people be successful.

The Idea Act gave children the right to have a free and appropriate education with an individual IEP.  The department of vocational rehabilitation is under the department of education which is 83% funded by the federal government and the rest by the states.  Kennedy was talking about people with certain disabilities such as mental illness being sent to wellness camps to get well. We all know that is a code word for being locked up or worse. All of these programs were decades in the making and could be quickly destroyed. I feel sick even thinking about it.

Yep, I'm neurodivergent and there was no diagnosis or support when I was a kid. I was just put in the "slow class" where we played with alphabet blocks and guinea pigs for hours on end because we weren't worth teaching.

I know first hand what it feels like to have society decide you're worthless because your brain functions a little differently. The fact that they're moving to go back to that is fucking horrifying.

It's not only morally and ethically horrifying, it's economically idiotic.

It's well established that under accommodating people with disabilities means under employing them, and that's a massive waste of human capital.

I'm severely disabled in many ways that make me absolutely unemployable to most organizations because I can never work the way they expect employees to work, and they simply won't accommodate me.

And yet, per hour I make more than 5 times the average in my province working for myself because I'm actually perfectly capable of highly profitable work even though almost no industry would hire someone like me. I'm the only employer willing to accommodate me.

Disabled people are a wildly under-valued resource, and it's estimated that in Canada if we made the country more accessible that disabled people being able to better enter the workforce would increase GDP by close to 20%. And that's not assuming that anyone's disability improves with accommodation.

https://www.iwh.on.ca/plain-language-summaries/economic-benefits-of-fully-accessible-and-inclusive-canada

Cutting supports for people with disabilities and further removing them from the social fabric is not efficient and doesn't help the economy. It makes us less able to contribute, and more of an expense to the system.

It's fucking stupid and morally disgusting.

Morning Glory

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #292 on: April 22, 2025, 06:06:48 AM »
I had a teacher who thought I was neurodivergent and my mom adamantly refused testing because she didn't want me labeled.  I did fine in school and graduated early but did not really learn how to fit in with peers and make friends until later.

My older autistic son had a lot of behavior issues when he was younger and I remember kids like him when I was in school were just labeled bad kids and got detention all the time. Now he is an honor student because of social skills classes and accommodations like sensory breaks.
 

Metalcat

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #293 on: April 22, 2025, 06:12:33 AM »
I had a teacher who thought I was neurodivergent and my mom adamantly refused testing because she didn't want me labeled.  I did fine in school and graduated early but did not really learn how to fit in with peers and make friends until later.

My older autistic son had a lot of behavior issues when he was younger and I remember kids like him when I was in school were just labeled bad kids and got detention all the time. Now he is an honor student because of social skills classes and accommodations like sensory breaks.

The neurodivergent adults I work with who grew up in the 80s and 90s all have a deep, internalized sense of themselves being "bad people."

My clients are universally, truly lovely, ethical, caring, successful people in mostly excellent marriages, and yet they never shake the sense of self that they're "bad" because their behaviour distressed the adults around them when they were very young.

LennStar

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #294 on: April 22, 2025, 06:53:07 AM »
Disabled people are a wildly under-valued resource, and it's estimated that in Canada if we made the country more accessible that disabled people being able to better enter the workforce would increase GDP by close to 20%. And that's not assuming that anyone's disability improves with accommodation.

https://www.iwh.on.ca/plain-language-summaries/economic-benefits-of-fully-accessible-and-inclusive-canada

Cutting supports for people with disabilities and further removing them from the social fabric is not efficient and doesn't help the economy. It makes us less able to contribute, and more of an expense to the system.

It's fucking stupid and morally disgusting.
How is disability defined here? Because I doubt Canada has 5 times the amount of disabled people in working age than everywhere else on the world.

Metalcat

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #295 on: April 22, 2025, 07:12:42 AM »
Disabled people are a wildly under-valued resource, and it's estimated that in Canada if we made the country more accessible that disabled people being able to better enter the workforce would increase GDP by close to 20%. And that's not assuming that anyone's disability improves with accommodation.

https://www.iwh.on.ca/plain-language-summaries/economic-benefits-of-fully-accessible-and-inclusive-canada

Cutting supports for people with disabilities and further removing them from the social fabric is not efficient and doesn't help the economy. It makes us less able to contribute, and more of an expense to the system.

It's fucking stupid and morally disgusting.
How is disability defined here? Because I doubt Canada has 5 times the amount of disabled people in working age than everywhere else on the world.

27% of the population over 15 is recognized as disabled

GuitarStv

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #296 on: April 22, 2025, 07:26:54 AM »
Disabled people are a wildly under-valued resource, and it's estimated that in Canada if we made the country more accessible that disabled people being able to better enter the workforce would increase GDP by close to 20%. And that's not assuming that anyone's disability improves with accommodation.

https://www.iwh.on.ca/plain-language-summaries/economic-benefits-of-fully-accessible-and-inclusive-canada

Cutting supports for people with disabilities and further removing them from the social fabric is not efficient and doesn't help the economy. It makes us less able to contribute, and more of an expense to the system.

It's fucking stupid and morally disgusting.
How is disability defined here? Because I doubt Canada has 5 times the amount of disabled people in working age than everywhere else on the world.

27% of the population over 15 is recognized as disabled

This is an interesting statscan graphic about that:




Apparently we've had about 5% more of the population turn disabled in the past five years.  I wonder how much of that is due to the rapidly aging population (given that nearly half of those over 65 are disabled).

Also, what's up with women 15-24 that's disabling a quarter of them or more?  That seems crazy high for people who should be in the prime of their lives.  Is this largely mental health, or is something else going on?

LennStar

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #297 on: April 22, 2025, 07:38:16 AM »
Disabled people are a wildly under-valued resource, and it's estimated that in Canada if we made the country more accessible that disabled people being able to better enter the workforce would increase GDP by close to 20%. And that's not assuming that anyone's disability improves with accommodation.

https://www.iwh.on.ca/plain-language-summaries/economic-benefits-of-fully-accessible-and-inclusive-canada

Cutting supports for people with disabilities and further removing them from the social fabric is not efficient and doesn't help the economy. It makes us less able to contribute, and more of an expense to the system.

It's fucking stupid and morally disgusting.
How is disability defined here? Because I doubt Canada has 5 times the amount of disabled people in working age than everywhere else on the world.

27% of the population over 15 is recognized as disabled

This is an interesting statscan graphic about that:




Apparently we've had about 5% more of the population turn disabled in the past five years.  I wonder how much of that is due to the rapidly aging population (given that nearly half of those over 65 are disabled).

Also, what's up with women 15-24 that's disabling a quarter of them or more?  That seems crazy high for people who should be in the prime of their lives.  Is this largely mental health, or is something else going on?
That is what I was wasking what counts as disability.

In Germany we do percentages. From 50% on you are heavily disabled and have special rights (like free public transit use).
At e.g. 10% you get nothing. I would be at 10% with my legs, which basically means I cannot do physical work (for income).
But what about color blindness? That does not seem to be counted in the above picture, but it still prevents me from taking certain jobs.
What about allergies? I can't do (year round) work outside because of it.

Are those last 2 files under "flexibility" in Canda? (In Germany it's basically filed under bad luck.)


Cassie

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #298 on: April 22, 2025, 07:46:16 AM »
I spent 32 years evaluating the interests, aptitudes, skills, providing career counseling and looking at the job market to help people with disabilities go to work. We sent some people to college, to many other types of training, job coaches to the workplace when needed, etc. If we just wanted to look at the economics of the program people pay more in taxes by working than what the program costs. We started at the age of 16 to help high school students plan for their future.

 In the states there’s funding to pay for sign language interpreters and we have no idea if that’s continuing. Imagine being at the ER or in the hospital with no way to communicate. Many deaf people lack basic writing skills because ASL is its own language which is fundamentally different and some deaf people have had very limited education.

 Imagine a deaf person from another country with limited language skills and the skills of a good interpreter become very apparent in order to communicate effectively.  If kids with special needs don’t get a decent education then they are screwed as adults.  Everyday I wake up and read 2-4 horrible things that this tyrant is doing. It’s overwhelming which I know is the point.

habanero

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #299 on: April 22, 2025, 08:46:24 AM »
People with autism "will never pay taxes, hold a job, or go in a date."

I just spent my entire day with clients who have autism, all of whom have long, supportive marriages/partnerships, all of whom have graduate degrees, all of whom have high paying white collar jobs, all of whom are getting increasingly afraid for American neurodivergent people.

Over here, there is a consulting company that only employs people with aspergers. They started out in a niche in software testing / anomalities detection etc and charge clients commercial consulting rates for their services provided.

Here, in case anyone is interested
https://auticon.com/no/en/