Author Topic: Ashley Madison Hack  (Read 34481 times)

Spork

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2015, 06:00:39 PM »
The "other woman" didn't break any promises.  She didn't really do anything wrong.  It's the spouse that is potentially breaking promises here.

I might argue that point.  The getaway driver for a bank robbery still goes to jail, even if he drove perfectly legally.  Something about aiding and abetting.

Yep.  But there's a law against that.  What law did AM break?  (I ask that without any research there... they may have.)


If you believe that martial infidelity is morally wrong, then isn't anyone who facilitates it, like a website, also complicit?


I seriously don't like the idea of governments legislating morality.  That is a really bad path to go down.  And the way government "morality" swings left and right -- you could get into some seriously icky situations.   Nope.  Nope, nope, nope.

What 2 consenting adults of their own accord is not the government's place to legislate against.  But, it may be the government's job to place a judge in a divorce court shortly thereafter.  ;)

trailrated

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2015, 06:13:28 PM »
I find the idea of that website horrible and would laugh if they do release the information. Divorce lawyers must be following this news like personal injury lawyers follow an ambulance.

So... hold on there.

Yeah, the concept is a little icky.  But they were not doing anything illegal.  I think you or I could come up with 100 companies pretty quickly that did things we didn't particularly agree with.  But that doesn't mean we should be all smug and giggly when they're open for attack.  Protecting the rights of those you don't agree with is pretty important in a free society. 

And getting mad at AM is like getting mad at "the other woman/man".  The "other woman" didn't break any promises.  She didn't really do anything wrong.  It's the spouse that is potentially breaking promises here.

+1

mrpercentage

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2015, 07:01:58 PM »
There's a problem with some of the mentality of "fuck those cheaters" and realizing that people might have actually signed up to the site simply to see what it was about with no intention of cheating. Maybe they just used an e-mail address that was theirs and no real name. Or those that signed up with approval of their spouse due to various reasons (as part of a relationship that has serious issues, I have been reading other boards where people do use this site BECAUSE their spouse has medical issues or just isn't interested in sex at all).

Classic blame the victim. Her top was too tight so she deserved to be raped. Not. They are victims of cyber crime. Makes no differece if they are cheaters or not.
Excuse my edits. I always fat finger my phone
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 07:04:11 PM by mrpercentage »

pbkmaine

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Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #53 on: July 30, 2015, 07:23:37 PM »
Re porn: As a kid, I stumbled on my older brother's stash of Playboy magazines. I found the articles interesting and the jokes very funny. I also learned a lot of stuff my prudish mother was never going to tell me. So thanks, Big Brother.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 10:00:16 PM by pbkmaine »

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #54 on: July 30, 2015, 07:55:52 PM »

The "other woman" didn't break any promises.  She didn't really do anything wrong.  It's the spouse that is potentially breaking promises here.

I might argue that point.  The getaway driver for a bank robbery still goes to jail, even if he drove perfectly legally.  Something about aiding and abetting.

Yep.  But there's a law against that.  What law did AM break?  (I ask that without any research there... they may have.)


If you believe that martial infidelity is morally wrong, then isn't anyone who facilitates it, like a website, also complicit?


I seriously don't like the idea of governments legislating morality.  That is a really bad path to go down.  And the way government "morality" swings left and right -- you could get into some seriously icky situations.   Nope.  Nope, nope, nope.

What 2 consenting adults of their own accord is not the government's place to legislate against.  But, it may be the government's job to place a judge in a divorce court shortly thereafter.  ;)

What are you referring to with the government legislating morality?  Does the government have anything to do with the AM hack?

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #55 on: July 31, 2015, 07:52:29 AM »
I find the idea of that website horrible and would laugh if they do release the information. Divorce lawyers must be following this news like personal injury lawyers follow an ambulance.

So... hold on there.

Yeah, the concept is a little icky.  But they were not doing anything illegal.  I think you or I could come up with 100 companies pretty quickly that did things we didn't particularly agree with.  But that doesn't mean we should be all smug and giggly when they're open for attack.  Protecting the rights of those you don't agree with is pretty important in a free society.

What law protects the right to anonymity for someone fucking around behind the back of his or her spouse?  I don't remember that one.

The Ashley Madison company is the party who had a crime perpetrated against them.  The cheaters aren't dealing with any crime, just the loss of their dirty secret.

Cathy

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #56 on: July 31, 2015, 10:09:08 AM »
What law protects the right to anonymity for someone fucking around behind the back of his or her spouse?  I don't remember that one. ...

You aren't being creative enough. There are always arguments to be made. I'm sure an aggrieved "cheater" plaintiff could craft many causes of action against the attackers (with varying levels of merit). The first issue in the case would be to determine the applicable law. The jurisdictional contest would probably include (1) Ontario (where the "Ashley Madison" company is apparently based), (2) the state of residence of the victim, (3) the state of residence of the attackers, and (4) any states from which the attack may have been carried out.

Note that choice of law is completely separate from forum (i.e. where the case should be filed). A court in one jurisdiction will apply the law of another jurisdiction if the applicable choice of law rules direct it to do so. See, e.g., San Diego Gas v. Canadian Hunter Marketing, 132 F3d 1303 (9th Cir 1997) (applying Alberta law to contract dispute in US federal appeals court and noting that "[i]f the Alberta legislature has concluded that a breakdown in the valuation process renders a contract voidable, it is beyond the province of the courts to impose a new rule").

In the case of hypothetical claims against the alleged attackers of Ashley Madison, it is impossible to say in advance what law will apply. We don't even know what jurisdictions will be involved in the contest. If, however, we assume for the sake of discussion that the law of Ontario will apply, the most plausible claim against the attackers will probably be "intrusion upon seclusion". In Jones v. Tsige, 2012 ONCA 32, the Court of Appeal for Ontario found that an action lies against a person who "intentionally intrudes, physically or otherwise, upon the seclusion of another or his private affairs or concerns ... if the invasion would be highly offensive to a reasonable person" (at para 70, adopting the formulation of the Restatement (Second) of Torts (2010))). No proof of pecuniary damages is required to prevail on this cause of action, although in the absence of pecuniary harm, the damages awarded will be "measured by a modest ... sum" (para 71).

The key question would probably be whether the illegal obtainment of information that somebody has "cheated" on their spouse is something that is "highly offensive to a reasonable person". At para 72, the Jones Court says that "intrusions into matters such as ... sexual practises and orientation ... can be described as highly offensive", but the Court wasn't dealing specifically with "cheating". However, it's not really a stretch to argue that illegal obtainment of that information might be "highly offensive" when "viewed objectively on the reasonable person standard" (para 72).

This post does not discuss any causes of action that the plaintiffs might have against Ashley Madison itself. I'll leave those as an exercise.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 10:51:11 AM by Cathy »

mrpercentage

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #57 on: July 31, 2015, 07:04:12 PM »
I find the idea of that website horrible and would laugh if they do release the information. Divorce lawyers must be following this news like personal injury lawyers follow an ambulance.

So... hold on there.

Yeah, the concept is a little icky.  But they were not doing anything illegal.  I think you or I could come up with 100 companies pretty quickly that did things we didn't particularly agree with.  But that doesn't mean we should be all smug and giggly when they're open for attack.  Protecting the rights of those you don't agree with is pretty important in a free society.

What law protects the right to anonymity for someone fucking around behind the back of his or her spouse?  I don't remember that one.

The Ashley Madison company is the party who had a crime perpetrated against them.  The cheaters aren't dealing with any crime, just the loss of their dirty secret.

While the whole thing is entertaining, and our love of drama wants to watch these bastards burn, the Ashley Madison users are still a victim of crime. There has been an increasing and disturbing trend of many against privacy. The patriot act. Recording phone calls. Blah. Blah. Blah. Exposing someones personal information from an area that is supposed to be secure and saying it is justified because of some claim on morality is a dangerous frame of mind.

Im not doing anything wrong when Im taking a shit but I don't want it posted on the internet either. The entire world should not have access to peoples personal information. The Scarlet Letter. Sadly this book is still true.

Whole episode reminds me of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lTkRG5Lhpk
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 07:08:11 PM by mrpercentage »

Spork

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #58 on: August 01, 2015, 03:54:38 PM »

The "other woman" didn't break any promises.  She didn't really do anything wrong.  It's the spouse that is potentially breaking promises here.

I might argue that point.  The getaway driver for a bank robbery still goes to jail, even if he drove perfectly legally.  Something about aiding and abetting.

Yep.  But there's a law against that.  What law did AM break?  (I ask that without any research there... they may have.)


If you believe that martial infidelity is morally wrong, then isn't anyone who facilitates it, like a website, also complicit?


I seriously don't like the idea of governments legislating morality.  That is a really bad path to go down.  And the way government "morality" swings left and right -- you could get into some seriously icky situations.   Nope.  Nope, nope, nope.

What 2 consenting adults of their own accord is not the government's place to legislate against.  But, it may be the government's job to place a judge in a divorce court shortly thereafter.  ;)

What are you referring to with the government legislating morality?  Does the government have anything to do with the AM hack?

That was a reference to "The getaway driver for a bank robbery still goes to jail, even if he drove perfectly legally" followed by "If you believe that martial infidelity is morally wrong, then isn't anyone who facilitates it, like a website, also complicit?"   

Maybe I was misinterpreting Sol... but it sure sounded almost like someone running a cheaters website was aiding and abetting (or aiding in a bedding, maybe?) 

My main point was: folks getting angry at AM are misplacing some blame.  AM, may be a bunch of asshats -- but they're not doing anything illegal and have actually had customer data stolen (both financial data and PII) and are a victim of blackmail.

sol

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #59 on: August 01, 2015, 04:12:02 PM »
Maybe I was misinterpreting Sol... but it sure sounded almost like someone running a cheaters website was aiding and abetting (or aiding in a bedding, maybe?) 

Aye, you did.  Notice the whole thing was prefaced with the conditional "if".

Any judginess you direct at people who cheat on their spouses should, in my opinion, be shared by anyone who helps people cheat on their spouses.  That might be zero or it might be a lot, but in either case I don't see how you can personally condemn one group and not the other.

I'm not sure where the whole "legislating" angle came from.  No one is talking about government involvement in this fiasco in any respect other than trying to find the hackers.  There is no law against infidelity and no law protecting the anonymity of cheaters, but there is a law against hacking into a private company's web servers and stealing information.  I think it's wholly appropriate for the government to find and arrest and sentence those hackers, without making any moral pronouncements against marital infidelity, just like they would for any other company that had been hacked.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2015, 11:02:56 AM »
I feel it's no one's place to "out" a cheater except the cheaters themselves. If I knew my neighbor was cheating on his wife, I likely would not approve, but it's not my place to go over and inform his wife. Of course, in this case the hackers have gone way beyond and have used highly illegal means to get what they want. I doubt anyone would feel a lot of sympathy for me if I broke into my neighbor's house, installed a hidden camera, recorded his infidelity, and then blackmailed him with releasing the information to his wife, his children, his boss, the neighborhood, and the entire internet. In that case, would anyone be saying, "Ha, the neighbor got what he deserved!!" ? They should be much more focused on rightly throwing my ass in jail for breaking and entering, installing illegal recording devices, voyeurism, and blackmail.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #61 on: August 03, 2015, 02:02:30 PM »
Kris is indeed right that in some circles porn viewing is viewed as deeply shameful and as akin to infidelity. I know someone who separated from her husband because he was "addicted to porn." I put that in quotations, because I never got a clear sense of how often he viewed porn or the type of porn he was viewing. Of course I didn't ask, but in my mind I was thinking, "Yeah, so what?"

She started attending a Christian support group for wives whose husbands are addicted to porn. I checked out their webpage, and the testimony of a prior support group attender was classic slippery slope. First her husband started watching porn, then that didn't satisfy him anymore so he started having sex with random women at hotels. Say what? I still don't know what one has to do with the other. That husband was a jerk in a way that had nothing to do with porn, but from their perspective porn is a gateway and never stops there. I truly got a sense that the woman I know who separated from her husband over it thought that it would get so out of control. And he wasn't willing to go into deep therapy for his porn viewing, so the marriage ended. I'm still flummoxed by it, although ultimately I don't think they separated just because of the porn. There had to be other issues, right?

Oi. You oughta meet my wife. I love her to death, but the biggest fights we ever had were over my viewing of porn. I had been open about watching it in prior relationships, but I found out early on with my wife that she did not approve of it in any way, shape, or form. I So I hid my habit, and a couple years into marriage, she found out, and basically reacted exactly the way I would have expected her to react if I had cheated. She told me flat-out that she saw pornography as completely equivalent to sexual infidelity, no difference in her mind whatsoever. I was reeling, she was very pregnant with out first child, we were just about to leave on our "babymoon" - a camping trip to Colorado. I loved her dearly, and here she was threatening to leave me - not permanently, just for "space". I convinced her to stay, we went on the trip and smoothed things out, but her trust was severely damaged for a long time. Bottom line: It does not surprise me at all that some marriages end over porn, and nothing more than porn. And not "addiction", either, whatever that is. Just viewing a short, random video a couple times a week. If I had refused to change, or acted as if I didn't think it was a big deal, my own marriage could be over. I know it seems silly, and I don't understand how she got to be that way (being raised Southern Baptist probably had something to do with it) but I do love her very much.

justajane

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2015, 06:56:59 AM »
Kris is indeed right that in some circles porn viewing is viewed as deeply shameful and as akin to infidelity. I know someone who separated from her husband because he was "addicted to porn." I put that in quotations, because I never got a clear sense of how often he viewed porn or the type of porn he was viewing. Of course I didn't ask, but in my mind I was thinking, "Yeah, so what?"

She started attending a Christian support group for wives whose husbands are addicted to porn. I checked out their webpage, and the testimony of a prior support group attender was classic slippery slope. First her husband started watching porn, then that didn't satisfy him anymore so he started having sex with random women at hotels. Say what? I still don't know what one has to do with the other. That husband was a jerk in a way that had nothing to do with porn, but from their perspective porn is a gateway and never stops there. I truly got a sense that the woman I know who separated from her husband over it thought that it would get so out of control. And he wasn't willing to go into deep therapy for his porn viewing, so the marriage ended. I'm still flummoxed by it, although ultimately I don't think they separated just because of the porn. There had to be other issues, right?

Oi. You oughta meet my wife. I love her to death, but the biggest fights we ever had were over my viewing of porn. I had been open about watching it in prior relationships, but I found out early on with my wife that she did not approve of it in any way, shape, or form. I So I hid my habit, and a couple years into marriage, she found out, and basically reacted exactly the way I would have expected her to react if I had cheated. She told me flat-out that she saw pornography as completely equivalent to sexual infidelity, no difference in her mind whatsoever. I was reeling, she was very pregnant with out first child, we were just about to leave on our "babymoon" - a camping trip to Colorado. I loved her dearly, and here she was threatening to leave me - not permanently, just for "space". I convinced her to stay, we went on the trip and smoothed things out, but her trust was severely damaged for a long time. Bottom line: It does not surprise me at all that some marriages end over porn, and nothing more than porn. And not "addiction", either, whatever that is. Just viewing a short, random video a couple times a week. If I had refused to change, or acted as if I didn't think it was a big deal, my own marriage could be over. I know it seems silly, and I don't understand how she got to be that way (being raised Southern Baptist probably had something to do with it) but I do love her very much.

Thanks for your viewpoint. The wife is a conservative Catholic, so I imagine religion plays a very large role in this. I guess I just can't get outraged about the idea of a husband looking at a video once in a while. Violent porn? probably. Porn with very young women? definitely. But normal porn on occasion? I don't get it. Sure, if the husband next door was spending hours and hours watching it and neglecting the kids and his wife, then that is a different matter.

I grew up fundamental. I once had someone who was in a leadership position over me at the church tell me that masturbation was cheating, because you were having sex with someone other than your spouse. You were having sex with yourself! Even when I was teenager, I knew that was crazy. Thankfully my parents were fundamental but not so rigid. I remember my mom saying once that she didn't have a problem with masturbation. And my sister listed porn as a major reason why her ex-husband and her divorced, and my mom expressed that she didn't understand why that should end a marriage. Maybe some people are pragmatists and others are idealists and fundamental Christianity coupled with idealism can be a destructive combination.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2015, 08:30:38 PM »

sol

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #64 on: August 18, 2015, 08:40:47 PM »
The data's been released.
http://gizmodo.com/the-ashley-madison-hackers-just-released-all-of-their-s-1724920693?

I'm waiting for the non-darkweb version of a searchable web page, like a local site search that will allow anyone to "anonymously" query the data dump for names or credit card numbers and get back a text file of all matching results.

Like "here's a file of all the dudes named Richard living in California who say they're into pegging, who entered all of that information into the Ashley Madison website because they don't understand internet privacy."  That will be awesome.

Most folks would just use it to search for their spouses.

A bright and ironically-minded programmer could deliver something like "fifteen matching results" and then require a credit card signup to have them delivered.  I bet lots of people would pay 99 cents to see if their spouse is contained in the data dump.

okits

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #65 on: August 18, 2015, 09:01:21 PM »
The data's been released.
http://gizmodo.com/the-ashley-madison-hackers-just-released-all-of-their-s-1724920693?

I'm waiting for the non-darkweb version of a searchable web page, like a local site search that will allow anyone to "anonymously" query the data dump for names or credit card numbers and get back a text file of all matching results.

Like "here's a file of all the dudes named Richard living in California who say they're into pegging, who entered all of that information into the Ashley Madison website because they don't understand internet privacy."  That will be awesome.

Most folks would just use it to search for their spouses.

A bright and ironically-minded programmer could deliver something like "fifteen matching results" and then require a credit card signup to have them delivered.  I bet lots of people would pay 99 cents to see if their spouse is contained in the data dump.

Ha ha ha... My husband has a very common name.

"Honey, did you sign up for Ashley Madison 600 times?  Quit wasting our f-ing money!"

FIRE me

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #66 on: August 19, 2015, 08:46:15 PM »
So what say you fellow mustachians? Do you find this funny? Terrible? Awful that they were not mustachian in their cheating by finding a way to do it for free?

Karma [1] at its finest.

[1] I don't actually believe in Karma.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #67 on: August 19, 2015, 10:12:51 PM »
So, I did find this amusing in a "well, they cheated, so..." kind of way, even while I admit that they're victims of a rather horrible crime and that their privacy should be protected.  I don't condone cheating, but the hackers are cheating them, too, of a right to privacy.
On the other hand, the news just broke that one of the Duggars had an account.  Now, pass the fuckin' popcorn because that is GOLD.  Self-righteous asshole pedophile is also cheating on his wife?  Yeah, I'll gleefully watch that drama play out without an ounce of remorse.
http://gawker.com/family-values-activist-josh-duggar-had-a-paid-ashley-ma-1725132091


The data's been released.
http://gizmodo.com/the-ashley-madison-hackers-just-released-all-of-their-s-1724920693?

I'm waiting for the non-darkweb version of a searchable web page, like a local site search that will allow anyone to "anonymously" query the data dump for names or credit card numbers and get back a text file of all matching results.

Like "here's a file of all the dudes named Richard living in California who say they're into pegging, who entered all of that information into the Ashley Madison website because they don't understand internet privacy."  That will be awesome.

Most folks would just use it to search for their spouses.

A bright and ironically-minded programmer could deliver something like "fifteen matching results" and then require a credit card signup to have them delivered.  I bet lots of people would pay 99 cents to see if their spouse is contained in the data dump.

Ha ha ha... My husband has a very common name.

"Honey, did you sign up for Ashley Madison 600 times?  Quit wasting our f-ing money!"

Best spousal response ever.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #68 on: August 20, 2015, 10:25:30 AM »
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/these-bankers-used-their-work-emails-on-ashley-madison-2015-08-19

Doesn't account for number of employees, but man it's refreshing to see that Wells Fargo can still lead in something.

trailrated

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #69 on: August 20, 2015, 11:43:56 AM »
This site lets you check and see if an email address was used to create an account.

https://ashley.cynic.al/

For some reason when I copied and pasted an email address it showed up as a negative but when I typed it in it showed up as a positive. Someone I know confirmed their account and the site verified it.

I found my landlord... he just had a daughter with his wife. Should be interesting. Once again you can only verify with emails and it astounds me that someone would not make an alternate email for the site.

justajane

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #70 on: August 20, 2015, 03:32:49 PM »
Even though I have no respect for the Duggars, I still think it's a violation that Josh Duggar and others were outed as users of Ashley Madison in this hack.

In true reality style, he has come out and confessed his crimes: "I have been the biggest hypocrite ever. While espousing faith and family values, I have secretly over the last several years been viewing pornography on the internet and this became a secret addiction and I became unfaithful to my wife."

So, per our earlier discussion of pornography being viewed as infidelity by conservative Christians, did he actually cheat on his wife, or did he view porn?

Kris

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #71 on: August 20, 2015, 03:43:57 PM »
Even though I have no respect for the Duggars, I still think it's a violation that Josh Duggar and others were outed as users of Ashley Madison in this hack.

In true reality style, he has come out and confessed his crimes: "I have been the biggest hypocrite ever. While espousing faith and family values, I have secretly over the last several years been viewing pornography on the internet and this became a secret addiction and I became unfaithful to my wife."

So, per our earlier discussion of pornography being viewed as infidelity by conservative Christians, did he actually cheat on his wife, or did he view porn?

I think he actually admitted to having sex with other women, as well as viewing porn.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #72 on: August 20, 2015, 10:38:06 PM »
This has been a hoot around the office since thousands of .gov and .mil email addresses were used for AM.  We're debating whether or not that in itself is punishable under the UCMJ, but it makes for a few good laughs.  Apparently when Army Times online published that factoid today a divorce lawyer posted in the comments section "I offer military discounts!"  Another aspect of this is AM could face a hefty class action lawsuit down the road from all the members who paid AM to scrub their accounts yet still ended up on this list.

Welshrabbit

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #73 on: August 21, 2015, 07:51:58 AM »
This has been a hoot around the office since thousands of .gov and .mil email addresses were used for AM.  We're debating whether or not that in itself is punishable under the UCMJ, but it makes for a few good laughs.  Apparently when Army Times online published that factoid today a divorce lawyer posted in the comments section "I offer military discounts!"  Another aspect of this is AM could face a hefty class action lawsuit down the road from all the members who paid AM to scrub their accounts yet still ended up on this list.

Yeah...most of my coworkers and I are civilians with .gov emails and have been wondering how this is going to play out with the various IGs.  It will definitely be interesting to see if they start looking into Internet histories of the people on the list.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #74 on: August 21, 2015, 08:27:06 AM »
Even though I have no respect for the Duggars, I still think it's a violation that Josh Duggar and others were outed as users of Ashley Madison in this hack.

In true reality style, he has come out and confessed his crimes: "I have been the biggest hypocrite ever. While espousing faith and family values, I have secretly over the last several years been viewing pornography on the internet and this became a secret addiction and I became unfaithful to my wife."

So, per our earlier discussion of pornography being viewed as infidelity by conservative Christians, did he actually cheat on his wife, or did he view porn?

Lol, he is the same guy who once said that same-sex marriage is evil and that divorce is a sin punishable by a life in hell. So if his god and his devil exist, I guess we know which side will accept him. Funny how we get these ultra conservatives caught doing stuff that they preach against. I remember there was a North Dakota legislator who was totally against gays and was later caught sending pictures of his junk to a 21 year old male.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 08:31:38 AM by fb132 »

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #75 on: August 21, 2015, 08:52:32 AM »
I don't take any joy in watching Mr. Duggar go down in flames. His hypocrisy is sickening, and I sympathize with his wife and kids.

The whole story reminds me too much of one of my former friends. He had a wife and an adopted 3-year-old daughter, and was an devout church-goer. He mentioned at a get-together how he thought the gays were part of the moral downfall of America, and that he thought they should all be "rounded up and shot". I'm embarrassed now that I was too shocked to retort. I think I just shrugged my shoulders and rolled my eyes. Six month later, Mr "Gays are Killing America" was caught in an extramarital affair, and after dragging his wife along for several weeks with promises to change, he eventually just abandoned her and his daughter for his mistress. It was painful to watch, and I can't even imagine how his family felt.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #76 on: August 21, 2015, 02:20:11 PM »

justajane

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #77 on: August 21, 2015, 03:33:04 PM »
I don't take any joy in watching Mr. Duggar go down in flames. His hypocrisy is sickening, and I sympathize with his wife and kids.

Yeah, I like Schadenfreude as much as the next person, but this is all a little much. Gleeful happiness when someone's life is ruined, even a hypocrite, is not really seemly.

Having said that, it will likely be turned around on the wife, as if somehow this is all her fault. If she had done her wifely duties, he wouldn't have had to seek outside stimulation. Cultures like this sometimes let the man off the hook.

sol

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #78 on: August 21, 2015, 03:51:13 PM »

Yeah, I like Schadenfreude as much as the next person, but this is all a little much. Gleeful happiness when someone's life is ruined, even a hypocrite, is not really seemly.

I love it.  More than any other victim of this hack, this guy deserves to lose everything.

He became fabulously wealthy and famous and powerful by preaching his own supposed virtue, by righteously condemning people's perceived moral failings in the eyes of his just God, and it was all clearly a lie on every level.  He deserves to lose everything he gained from his hypocrisy, including every dollar, his wife and children to whom be pledged his fidelity, and any and all goodwill he generated for his faith and family.  Fuck that raging hypocrite douchebag and everything he stands for.  Right in his lying piehole.

But that's not what will happen.  He'll make public apologies and claim he's found Jesus again to set him back on the righteous path, and he'll go right back to fame and fortune and apparent forgiveness.  We like our celebrities tarnished but not disgraced, so he'll end up on Christian QVC or the motivational speaker circuit or writing a best selling book about his downfall and path to "redemption".  It's sickeningly predictable.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #79 on: August 21, 2015, 03:56:16 PM »

Yeah, I like Schadenfreude as much as the next person, but this is all a little much. Gleeful happiness when someone's life is ruined, even a hypocrite, is not really seemly.

I love it.  More than any other victim of this hack, this guy deserves to lose everything.

He became fabulously wealthy and famous and powerful by preaching his own supposed virtue, by righteously condemning people's perceived moral failings in the eyes of his just God, and it was all clearly a lie on every level.  He deserves to lose everything he gained from his hypocrisy, including every dollar, his wife and children to whom be pledged his fidelity, and any and all goodwill he generated for his faith and family.  Fuck that raging hypocrite douchebag and everything he stands for.  Right in his lying piehole.

But that's not what will happen.  He'll make public apologies and claim he's found Jesus again to set him back on the righteous path, and he'll go right back to fame and fortune and apparent forgiveness.  We like our celebrities tarnished but not disgraced, so he'll end up on Christian QVC or the motivational speaker circuit or writing a best selling book about his downfall and path to "redemption".  It's sickeningly predictable.

Oh, believe me - I'm not shedding tears over his or the family's downfall. But I think he should lose everything based on the fact that he molested his sisters - not based on an illegal hack uncovering his affairs or love of certain sexual positions. Since that didn't happen when the absolute worst was uncovered, I'm not too thrilled about this possibly being the straw that breaks the camel's back.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #80 on: August 21, 2015, 06:28:19 PM »
Next thing you know, there will be stories about him sleeping with another man, that would complete a hat trick for Duggar. He would win hands down as the most  hypocritical man on earth.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #81 on: August 21, 2015, 10:55:04 PM »
I'm with Sol on this one, sorry.  And yes, it's sick that it might take an extramarital affair rather than MOLESTATION to bring him down, but the fact that this bastard has made a career out of trying to ruin other people's lives and take their rights away based on "family values" and "morals"...he deserves every bad thing that happens to him, as do all the others of his ilk.

For pretty much everyone else who was hacked, unless there are a few politicians on there of the Morality and Family Values stripe (and I think we would have heard something by now, with so many people poring over the data--they might just be smarter about hiding their identities), I feel sorry for the rest.  Especially reading things like this: http://mic.com/articles/124169/the-ashley-madison-hack-could-effect-those-who-live-in-country

It will be interesting to see how this affects divorce statistics over the next few years, but only from a sociological standpoint.  I feel bad for the families which will be hurt by this.  Even if some (many? most?) of the divorces and breakups caused end up being for the best, there will still be a lot of people who are hurt.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #82 on: August 22, 2015, 01:31:47 AM »
I love it.  More than any other victim of this hack, this guy deserves to lose everything.

He became fabulously wealthy and famous and powerful by preaching his own supposed virtue, by righteously condemning people's perceived moral failings in the eyes of his just God, and it was all clearly a lie on every level.  He deserves to lose everything he gained from his hypocrisy, including every dollar, his wife and children to whom be pledged his fidelity, and any and all goodwill he generated for his faith and family.  Fuck that raging hypocrite douchebag and everything he stands for.  Right in his lying piehole.

Eloquently put and right on. Fuck that guy.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2015, 06:17:45 AM »
I'm with Sol on this one, sorry.  And yes, it's sick that it might take an extramarital affair rather than MOLESTATION to bring him down, but the fact that this bastard has made a career out of trying to ruin other people's lives and take their rights away based on "family values" and "morals"...he deserves every bad thing that happens to him, as do all the others of his ilk.

For pretty much everyone else who was hacked, unless there are a few politicians on there of the Morality and Family Values stripe (and I think we would have heard something by now, with so many people poring over the data--they might just be smarter about hiding their identities), I feel sorry for the rest.  Especially reading things like this: http://mic.com/articles/124169/the-ashley-madison-hack-could-effect-those-who-live-in-country

It will be interesting to see how this affects divorce statistics over the next few years, but only from a sociological standpoint.  I feel bad for the families which will be hurt by this.  Even if some (many? most?) of the divorces and breakups caused end up being for the best, there will still be a lot of people who are hurt.
Well it is better they divorce now than never find out about it.

sol

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #84 on: August 26, 2015, 07:36:07 PM »
Gizmodo claims that out of 37 million registered Ashley Madison user accounts, approximately 12,000 were women who actually logged into the site at least once after creating profiles.  The rest of the 5.5 million female users were apparently fakes created by AM employees to give male users the impression there were actually women on there looking to have affairs.

12k out of 37 million.  Less than 1/20th of one percent.  That rounds to zero by any reasonable metric.

Summary of the data based on this analysis:
Quote
we’re left with data that suggests Ashley Madison is a site where tens of millions of men write mail, chat, and spend money for women who aren’t there.

I can't say I'm really surprised.  I'm pretty sure that if my wife wanted to have an affair, she wouldn't have to turn to the internet to find willing partners.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #85 on: August 26, 2015, 08:32:07 PM »
^^^low whistle if that analysis holds up.

So, all the men burned by the data breach are still gross, but perhaps less gross? Curious if this changes anyone's reactions up thread.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #86 on: August 26, 2015, 08:45:46 PM »
I think that outing all porn users would elicit little more than a shrug from most. It's ubiquitous, hardly even a taboo as far as I can tell, and about as shocking as cohabitation before marriage.

A lot of people consider cohabitation before marriage to be very scandalous. There are strong Puritanical roots in our culture. A lot of those things are dying off though.

To carry the idea through, many also abhor divorce and believe divorce is against moral beliefs/ bible, too.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #87 on: August 26, 2015, 09:25:01 PM »
Thanks for the laugh, sol. That was the best thing I've read all week. When I brought it up to my wife, her first reaction was, well, what about that "affair guarantee" that Mr. Duggar purchased? Interesting question. Surely Ashley Madison wasn't hiring prostitutes for these men to make sure they didn't have to pay the money back, were they? Did they just bank on men refusing to admit that they got laid, even if it meant losing the money? So many questions...

I think that outing all porn users would elicit little more than a shrug from most. It's ubiquitous, hardly even a taboo as far as I can tell, and about as shocking as cohabitation before marriage.

A lot of people consider cohabitation before marriage to be very scandalous. There are strong Puritanical roots in our culture. A lot of those things are dying off though.

To carry the idea through, many also abhor divorce and believe divorce is against moral beliefs/ bible, too.

I'm reminded of an article I read about a sociologist who wanted to do a study where he controlled for men who had watched porn and men who had never viewed any at all. He was unable to complete the study, because he was unable to find any men - as in, not a single, solitary one - who had never watched porn.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #88 on: August 26, 2015, 09:26:01 PM »
Gizmodo claims that out of 37 million registered Ashley Madison user accounts, approximately 12,000 were women who actually logged into the site at least once after creating profiles.  The rest of the 5.5 million female users were apparently fakes created by AM employees to give male users the impression there were actually women on there looking to have affairs.

12k out of 37 million.  Less than 1/20th of one percent.  That rounds to zero by any reasonable metric.

Summary of the data based on this analysis:
Quote
we’re left with data that suggests Ashley Madison is a site where tens of millions of men write mail, chat, and spend money for women who aren’t there.

I can't say I'm really surprised.  I'm pretty sure that if my wife wanted to have an affair, she wouldn't have to turn to the internet to find willing partners.

Not at all surprising or uncommon. Most of the other hookup sites operate the same way and are inundated with fake profiles.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #89 on: August 26, 2015, 09:48:55 PM »
...A lot of people consider cohabitation before marriage to be very scandalous. There are strong Puritanical roots in our culture. ...

According to Foucault, our culture has basically never repressed sexuality but in fact encourages and proliferates it in all its forms, and the idea that sexuality is somehow repressed is a narrative designed to make sex seem mysterious and mystical and thus far more important than it actually is, "constitut[ing] 'sex' itself as something desirable", which in turn allows us to be more easily controlled and keeps our minds off what actually makes us uncomfortable, namely death. See generally The History of Sexuality, Foucault (1976), and in particular volume 1, part 5, "Right of Death and Power over Life".
« Last Edit: August 26, 2015, 10:23:33 PM by Cathy »

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #91 on: August 27, 2015, 06:42:35 AM »
While certainly that means the 12,000 real women had their pick of the lot, does that mean that these 12,000 hooked up with countless guys as well? I know the vast majority of the male users didn't actually have an affair organized through AM, but still. Some of them did. And if there were only 12,000 real women....

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #92 on: August 27, 2015, 11:09:18 AM »
...A lot of people consider cohabitation before marriage to be very scandalous. There are strong Puritanical roots in our culture. ...

According to Foucault, our culture has basically never repressed sexuality but in fact encourages and proliferates it in all its forms, and the idea that sexuality is somehow repressed is a narrative designed to make sex seem mysterious and mystical and thus far more important than it actually is, "constitut[ing] 'sex' itself as something desirable", which in turn allows us to be more easily controlled and keeps our minds off what actually makes us uncomfortable, namely death. See generally The History of Sexuality, Foucault (1976), and in particular volume 1, part 5, "Right of Death and Power over Life".

Foucault didn't live in the US. Our society definitely represses sexuality, but less so than it used to. And sexuality has been repressed by various societies throughout history. I think the repression is actually part of the means of control. It had some economic sense to it at one point before contraception was available. But there isn't as much point to it now.

sol

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #93 on: August 27, 2015, 11:38:11 AM »
does that mean that these 12,000 hooked up with countless guys as well?

That was historically how human sexuality has worked, but I make no claim to knowing anything about AM users. 

Compared to men, women have always had a higher average number of lifetime partners than median number, suggesting that a small number of women have a whole bunch while men are a bit more democratic in spreading it around.

But the AM analysis is kind of bogus anyway, relying as it does on site usage data.  There is no actual record of sexual liaisons.  Maybe a bunch of women created profiles once and then never used the site again because men would email them directly and they hooked up outside of the site's interface.  Maybe women were better than men at hiding their involvement in the site using fake credentials.

I'm not sure it matters.  I am sure that some people reading this thread were AM users (probably dudes, just by the stats).  The interesting twist in this story isn't the supposed exposure of immoral behavior, it's the brazenness of the company in constructing this entirely false fantasy life for sale on the internet.  It sure looks like the entire site was a fraud.  There were never enough women to match with the number of men.  There were millions and millions of fake female profiles, with pictures and apparently with flirty comments, designed to give the impression that a dude might get lucky if he just paid up for access.  It was all a scam.

Don't get me wrong, it's still dirty if your husband goes looking for an affair even if he doesn't actually find one, and your marriage is probably doomed anyway.  It just makes the dudes look a little more pathetic, rather than just shifty, that they were duped into paying for a service that didn't actually exist.

Seriously people, if you want to have an affair just bang your brother's/neighbor's/best friend's wife like people have been doing for thousands of years.  If you're intent on ruining your marriage, it's way cheaper and your odds are apparently better.



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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #94 on: August 27, 2015, 05:08:12 PM »
^^^low whistle if that analysis holds up.

So, all the men burned by the data breach are still gross, but perhaps less gross? Curious if this changes anyone's reactions up thread.

Its worse than that. Apparently only 1500 real women actually responded to a message. And the percent of men who actually responded to a message was low as well. Basically, the entire site is/was a sham. Its why this is the dumbest "controversy" in media history. This is a site where at most, less than 1/6th of users actually tried hooking up, and even then much, much less actually succeeded. This is over the course of years and years.

It validates what I thought about this particular site and others like it. Its just a shell game by the company, and most of the users are just regular people pulled in by the mystery and allure. These people dont really want to have an affair, they are mostly just there out of sheer morbid curiosity. After seeing the ridiculousness of it, they leave.

The data backs it up. The vast majority of people on the site never actually did anything notable. There was very little hooking up going on. The marketing on the site was genius, and it was the taboo nature that led so many people to go take a look without ever actually cheating. Of course some people really did go to have affairs, and a few may have even succeeded, but lumping all the users as "cheaters" and "scumbags" is just sensationalizing nonsense.

I hope the coverage fades and we stop hearing about some random B-List celebrity being on AM. Its seriously stupid.

sol

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #95 on: August 27, 2015, 05:20:11 PM »
The vast majority of people on the site never actually did anything notable. There was very little hooking up going on.

That's certainly one interpretation, but I don't think it's the only one.  It's more accurate to say that the vast majority of users created an account to look for an affair, and then never left any evidence of ever having had an affair.  Maybe they hooked up by email and promptly took things offline, as that would leave the same record as someone who never found a partner.  You don't know.

I've thought about looking into the list myself, but ultimately decided I didn't really want to know which of my friends and acquaintances are icky.  Apparently there are websites that will search for every email in your Google contacts list for matches.  No thanks.

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #96 on: August 27, 2015, 05:25:59 PM »
I would not bother, because there is still no proof they were actually cheating, just that they went to the site for whatever reason.

Anyway, I just think this is one of those things blown out of proportion.

sol

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #97 on: August 27, 2015, 05:31:47 PM »
I would not bother, because there is still no proof they were actually cheating, just that they went to the site for whatever reason.

Anyway, I just think this is one of those things blown out of proportion.

There is proof that they willingly spent real money in order to try to have an affair.  That's not casual browsing.  There is a record of how much they spent, what IP addresses they used, how many people they messaged and how often they visited, and what sort of relationship and sexual positions they wanted.  I think it's more than enough to determine if your spouse is untrustworthy.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 08:08:36 PM by sol »

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #98 on: August 27, 2015, 05:39:49 PM »
You really think all that information is real? I haven't looked at the actual data, but the point still stands. The vast majority of those people never actually did any hooking up and its questionable how many really tried, given how many fake names and such were given.

EDIT: removed some info that shouldn't matter
« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 05:48:27 PM by AZDude »

sol

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Re: Ashley Madison Hack
« Reply #99 on: August 27, 2015, 05:53:13 PM »
You really think all that information is real?

Yes. So far, no one has disputed any of the names, and the usage stats were just internal IT records.

Quote
I have been to the site out of curiosity and looked around.

I think that was clear from the context of your posts.  If you never paid or entered any of your personal information that would have allowed a cheater to contact you, then you're probably in the clear and won't show up in the records.

For the record, I don't really care if you tried or succeeded in cheating on your spouse.  You're an internet stranger and presumably an adult, and what you do with other consenting adults is your business.  But I might poke a little fun at you for using a scam site like AM, for paying for a service that is normally free, and for still believing in internet privacy.